Should I Join the SSPX? w/ Kennedy Hall
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มี.ค. 2023
- Support the channel by visiting brianholdsworth.ca
Find Kennedy's Channel here: @MereTradition
Some Resources We Discuss in this Video...
Archbishop Lefebvre's 1974 Declaration:
"We adhere with all our heart and all our soul to Catholic Rome, guardian of the Catholic Faith and the traditions necessary to maintain it, and to Eternal Rome, mistress of wisdom and truth. On the other hand we refuse and have always refused to follow the Rome of the neo-Modernist and the new Protestant trend which was clearly evident in the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council in all the reforms which flowed from it."
Baltimore Catechism, Volume 3, Question 1004:
"Q. 1004. Can bishops, priests and other ministers of the Church always exercise the power they have received in Holy Orders?
A. Bishops, priests and other ministers of the Church cannot exercise the power they have received in Holy Orders unless authorized and sent to do so by their lawful superiors. The power can never be taken from them, but the right to use it may be withdrawn for causes laid down in the laws of the Church, or for reasons that seem good to those in authority over them. Any use of sacred power without authority is sinful, and all who take part in such ceremonies are guilty of sin."
Ecclesia Dei (statement of Excommunication of the SSPX bishops)
www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...
Letter of Pope Benedict XVI lifting of Excommunications:
www.vatican.va/content/benedi...
St. Thomas Aquinas on Obedience:
www.newadvent.org/summa/3104.htm
St. Thomas Aquinas on Schism:
www.newadvent.org/summa/3039.htm
Vatican I on Papal Authority:
"if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema."
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Podcast Version: brianholdsworth.libsyn.com/ - บันเทิง
Attending the TLM at my SSPX chapel has brought me closer to Christ and Our Blessed Mother. My siblings were called to SSPX at different times for different reasons. We all now sit in the same pew together! Some cousins have since joined us. I believe that God is gathering us together there.
I didn't attend an sspx chapel. Yet my old parish prior to moving was ad orientum latin and we had low and high masses. Now at a very very liberal NO parish quite the change... my wife and I decided we are going to bring tradition with us rather than drive over an hour trying to help ourselves. The parishioners love us and now we are slowly bringing the traditions back also my wife is now the head religious education. I think the TLM is great to grow and learn your faith but how do we get more to learn about it. It's stressful but can be very very fruitful we are finding after 2 years of pushback.
@@lboh5260 Wonderful! You and your wife are needed there! When I was a catechist at my NO parish, I went off the deficient, watered-down program many times. The main thing to constantly drill into these kids is that Jesus is TRULY present in the Eucharist . I asked all my 7 th grade students , one by one if Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. They were all guessing, but almost all said “no”. I went from there, teaching the passover in the old testament that they HAD to eat of the lamb. They couldn’t eat a “symbol” of the lamb, like a lamb-shaped cookie. And then explaing the Lamb, etc. You have an important mission. God bless you!
@@lboh5260 7
Was there not the FSSP available?
It was an easy decision for me. I was an adult convert and went for RCIA in two dioceses and was turned away in both. Not on the schedule. Come back in six months. I saw a Catholic congregation coming out from a small, plain church. Happy, no masks, all ages, lots of kids. Gave it one more try. Catechesis began in ten days from the priest. Not from Karen and Bob. It was FSSPX. I didn't know what that meant at the time. Now I know and do not care. No decision at all. One door was open. The others were closed.
Amen 🙏
But what about their adherence to the schism of Lefevre? You found the true church, don’t get caught up at the last minute.
God blessed you!
@@annaru3814 Indeed. And through Our Lady's hand, so that I would know, and accept subordination. It was no small thing for me to kneel.
When I was 16 and came to Catholicism (I had been baptized as a baby but never practiced) looking to do my First Communion and Confirmation, I got turned away since the Confirmation education takes two years in the archdiocese but that I couldn't do it since I'd be 18 by the time I completed it, therefore making me an adult and would 'age me out' I guess. A year later I went to the SSPX and did my First Communion a few months later, then got Confirmed the following year.
The SSPX changed my life. I found them when I was 26. I come from a non practicing, liberal family. The SSPX showed me holy families and the true Catholic culture.
More of these charitable interviews please. This was great. God bless you both.
Brian was great - Kennedy was embarrassing, twisting himself into theological pretzels trying to justify disobedience.
Are you Chaldean Catholic?
@Shimoun I've been attending a byzantine catholic church for the past 3 years but I'm chaldean
@@thisandthat2004 Well, I'm guessing you would have no problems comdemning St. Athanasius then, or the lay people who rejected Nestorius before he was condemned by Rome. Also, aren't you embarrased to treat this as a debate, even though it wasn't?
@@thereasonableman2424 If you read the actual history of St. Athanasius, you'd know that what the SSPX proposes about him is a fiction. And I'm not treating this as a debate. Hall was here to defend the SSPX. He used easily debunked theological blunders to do so. If he's the best you've got, well ...
Excellent and important conversation. I am not in attendance at SSPX, but I am sympathetic to their position. Kennedy, who had the lion's share of work in presenting the position, did a thorough job explaining the history of the SSPX, and the difficulties in the divide. Not an easy task with so much information to relay. Brian, as always, was a gracious and wonderful host, asking good questions and being a respectful and sincere listener. Thank you to both men for a thought provoking and most interesting discussion. God bless you and your families, Brian and Kennedy.
I don't attend SSPX because I have a different traditional community. But the SSPX are heroes to me, and I acknowledge the fact that Lefebvre is the only reason we still have the Latin Mass.
Let’s all remember that the FSSP would not exist where it not for the Archbishop. The original priest of FSSP were SSPX. God bless.
That is not true ,there were many priests who celebrated the old mass since 1970 ,God s will would have protected the traditional mass ,also without Lefebvre ,he is not the most important man in church ,like the FSSPX thinks.
@@fragilechrissyno one else was actually training priests in the Mass of All Time. How do you know that the Holy Spirit didn't inspire the Archbishop to take the actions he did?
@@fragilechrissy It is true!
lol We had the Carmelites giving us the Latin Mass here, never losing it. All the SSPX does is hide Pedophiles
@@kathleenkindt3688 Because throughout the history of the Church, God has always rewarded those saints who were obedient, not the persons who were disobedient. This holds true even in cases when the Church later determined that the Church authorities had been in error.
Gentlemen:
Thanks so much for sharing this!!
Kennedy, God bless you and your work sharing the ministry of the FSSPX!!!
God speed, gentlemen!!🙏🙏
Thanks to Mr. Holdsworth for having this guest. Kennedy has obviously done his research, where it really matters. Some of the details of events and chronology of the SSPX are complicated and hard to remember, but as concerns the moral questions involved, Kennedy makes a solid case, ready with a pertinent answer.
FR David Sherry has a much better YT re.SSPX..
@@colajax no disrespect to Fr. Sherry, but it was interesting to see how a layman who attends the SSPX mass would express his position in his own words.
I used to go to the NO Mass twice a week.
Then times got rough and our NO parish was no longer an option for us.
The only thing NO Catholics would tell us was how bad it was the we were attending SSPX.
That is when I realized it is all just blind hate; people will tell so many lies about SSPX just to scare people away while the SSPX has reasonable arguments.
The actual problem that we had with the pastor was just ignored...
I am glad mr. Holdsworth is having this conversation, as few people I knew were as reasonable.
Agreed. For the forty two years I was a fundamentalist and Calvinist, no Catholics were fussed. I came into the Church through the FSSPX and and the pearl clutching and attacks have been astonishing. Ineffective. But astonishing. And I agree with you that few platforms would be this calm and generous with Mr. Hall.
Why not attend FSSP?
@@saintlybeginnings It's not a Catholic principle to leave a good congregation behind. The same reason we attended NO will be our reason to attend SSPX.
@@saintlybeginnings Because they aren't anywhere near, and after I ordered one book from them all I get is spam for donations. I went in the one open door. All others were closed, or very remote.
The sspx is not a Catholic Church. I would not pick on anyone that goes because the times are confusing and most people that go to sspx have good intentions. However they are still in schism. It’s a confusing matter and idk if I can say it all in the comment because of how lengthy the whole problem is but I’ll try to get to the heart of the matter.
Sspx was founded in opposition to the pope. A huge misconception is that PJPII was trying to censor the Latin mass but that simply is not the case. He in several occasions gave priests the ok to say the mass in Latin including Lefebvre. He gave Lefebvre his own bishop and approved the appointment of four new bishops for a certain date. Lefebvre and JPII both signed the documents. However Lefebvre backed out and demanded PJPII give him the bishops earlier. No agreement was reached and Lefebvre ordained the 4 bishops in an act of opposition to the holy father which is an official act of schism. In other words Rome bent over backwards for him and still went into schism.
Shortly there after SSPX was formally declared a schismatic entity by Rome. Now fast forward to the 2000’s. Pope Benedict was concerned for people in the sspx receiving invalid sacraments so he made it possible for a marriage to happen in the sspx if a catholic priest is present. Note they are still not in communion with the church because the Sspx priests would not be able to say the wedding mass independently.
Now the next major point is sspx is no longer seen as a formal schismatic group. That means it is easier for them to come into the church because you do not have to go to Rome to be declared out of schism you can practically just go to confession.
Again this is a complicated matter because there is so much misinformation going around. I don’t hate the sspx and I hope they can join the church again but they have to officially accept Vatican II and the Novus Ordo to be in union with Rome. Cardinal Burke has a great video on the Sspx that’s like 3 minutes long I’d recommend you look into it and what actually happened. I’m just some random guy in the comments that looked into what actually happened. I used to believe that Sspx masses were valid until I actually dug deeper into what actually happened and I’m trying to encourage others to look into what actually conspired. I wrote for longer than I intended but I hope my input helps you in some way.
God Bless!
Father Bisig was the Superior General of the FSSP (Fraternity of St. Peter) from its inception in 1988, but when he wanted to make it a rule that FSSP priests use exclusively the Tridentine Mass, he was formally removed by Ratzinger as head of the order. This constitutes another vindication of Archbishop Lefebvre, who did not trust the authorities in Rome to make an honest deal. In any case, it seemed they were just waiting for him to die, which is why the date for consecrations was constantly postponed. It should be added that the FSSP never got its own bishop, a favor they hoped to receive.
Lefebvre was in his right to ordain bishops. The FSSP compromised with VII to not defy VII in any way. Not allowing them to have their own Bishops is the ensure the true faith doesn’t continue. We got their game.
Speaking as a tradition loving, Latin Mass attending layman, I think there is a distinction in the situations e lo outlines above. While it may be true that LeFevbre got a raw deal, if the FSSP and the SSPX acknowledge that the new Mass is valid, it's not an imposition on the same level for ratzinger to tell the head of the FSSP that they should not ban their priests from celebrating the new mass... If you are the society of oranges and I as your superior tell you you can't tell your members to exclusively eat oranges I am not there for telling you you are banned from eating oranges. This may seem silly but it's an important distinction, and oftentimes statements like these are blown out of proportion in an all-or-nothing approach which actually harms the movement. You can make a slippery slope argument if you like, but it's not logically congruent to equate the Lefebvre situation to the ratzinger situation. Ironically, it WOULD be a more similar situation if the FSSP/SSPX saw the NO as invalid.
@@patrickvalentino600 Mr Valentino, I think you are on the "slippery slope" of deceiving yourself about the people running the Church.
@@patrickvalentino600 the SSPX would never say the NO is invalid. I don't believe that has ever been their stance. The issue even the arch bishop had is the fact that the door was open to abuses where it could be invalid. And I think you can easily toss a stone and hit an invalid one at this point with some of the crazy things that go on in "Catholic" churches.
It's also important to note that the Council of Trent basically says not to change the Mass or be anathema. There are a lot of important things that matter that are in church law that are never discussed. Fr. Hesse is a very good place to start and understand the code of canon law. The number 1 canon law being the salvation of souls and nothing is allowed to hider that in any way shape or form. So banning the traditional latin mass goes against everything that is catholic.
Love that you are doing this interview! Thank you, Brian.
A crossover I didn't expect, but enjoy.
good on Brian for hosting the SSPX when Pints that Aquinas wouldn't condone won't
I LOVE that you are both in the same show!!... my 2 favorite bearded catholics :)
Greatly appreciate Brian giving space to this important debate. Answers to his good questions debunked many if not all objections to SSPX. I would only add that there were many more Catholic priests and bishops besides apb Levebvre, God have mercy on his soul, in 1970s who responded by concrete actions to rising tide of modernist heresy and liturgical revolution within Catholic Church, and they should all be viewed as allies in battle agains ‘Great Apostasy’. Thanks and - Ave!😊
Don't confuse apostasy with schism. If the Catholic Church shuts down all Latin Masses and one leaves the Church for the SSPX, they are in Schism; which is a mortal sin against charity per St. Augustine.
@tubaceous I am interested in these other Priests and Bishops who took steps to combat modernism. Sounds like there are interesting stories here. Could you please mention a few names I might be able to look up? Thanks!
@@sarahdiana8934 I appreciate your interest. True Catholics now live in catacombs, but you can check some talks by bp Mark Pivarunas or bp Donald Sanborn. That may be a good start…
Well Done- a model for all such conversations, discussions, dialogues, encounters, etc
Great interview! Thank you Kennedy Hall for defending a truly holy man, Abp Lefebvre.
6:22 One of the priests at my parish way back a couple of decades ago was all into the charismatic movement and Medjugorie and all…ten years later, I looked him up and couldn’t find him until finally I found traces of him involved in the SSPX Resistance. Talk about a swing.
Thank you both for doing this program
Thanks for this eye-opening discussion. For years, I've been suspicious of the SSPX. Many online come across as rude and a tad elitist. This helps me empathize with their plight
@friend of blessed Leonie Martin
Most of us are not like that. 😊 But, even if we ALL were, the fact remains, you would be safer there (spiritually, catechetically) than anywhere else.
Certainly, I have met a few who are the way you describe, and they are rebuked kindly-but-firmly by our SSPX priest for behaving in such a non Christ-like manner (3, so far). They either cool their jets and learn how to be truly Catholic...or they just quit coming to Mass. But, a seed has been planted, naetheless.
I've found SSPV to be that way, but not SSPX.
I’ve enjoyed your channel for so long Brian. It was truly refreshing to see someone outside of the society ask such wonderful questions and seek such a charitable encounter. This only reinforces my love of yours and Kennedys contents. God bless both of you.
Great interview, well done for opening the conversation.
Kennedy Hall is embarrassing. He doesn't have the theological chops to discuss this, and makes basic blunders. Brian was very patient.
@Pat Last what’s funny is Mr. Hall did backflips to say the SSPX was never really excommunicated or is schism but they are on the frontlines asking if PF is the real Pope or if he is a heretic
Just know ma’am that comments like yours are why the TLM is under attack. The movement breeds these types of uncharitable rhetoric. And i say this as someone that prefers the TLM to the NO
@@thisandthat2004 very easy to sit on the ditch and comment, I think Kennedy did a good job. We need this conversation.
@@thisandthat2004 Can you give an example of a basic blunder he made? Brian is always very patient and his calm demeanor is one of the thing that makes listening to him so pleasant, Kennedy is much more energetic and excitable in style, but that doesn't mean he is wrong and he was not uncharitable to Brian.
Abp Lefebvre should be canonised (he is obviously in heaven) and made a doctor of the Church. He should be styled “Doctor of Tradition”.
It is important to have this type of discussion, the times we live are pretty unique and complicated.
A weekly chat with Kennedy to iron out these disagreements until you are satisfied would be great.
I don't attend SSPX but my FSSP parish intermingles with 2 SSPX chapels an hour away from us. We have lots of large backyard parties with both groups.
I suppose. It strikes me oddly that neither group is taking some key pieces of the faith particularly seriously.
@@atrifle8364
What exactly is the FSSP not quite taking seriously?
@@atrifle8364 the FSSP is in perfect communion with Rome, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Both are in communion with Rome.
This is awesome considering the flack some sectors of both groups give each other. Among the clergy, anyway.
Thank you so very much gentlemen for this wonderful podcast. Great job Kennedy on all the information you shared about SSPX. God bless both of you.🙏🙏🙏
Thanks you Brian for having Kennedy Hall on your podcast, this was definitely a great interview.
Brian does a great interview & has a common position of, "I'd rather be obedient & wrong than disobedient & right." The "elephant in the room," as Kennedy says several times, is that throughout history, people have been afraid of standing up to tyrannical or bad leadership...because that leadership had the power to destroy them. When V2 made some very bad changes (IMHO), blind obedience would be unGodly.
If Brian was obedient he would attend novus ordo
@@lawmaker22 not necessarily true. I attend a Traditional Latin Mass Parish instituted by our diocesan Bishop.
@lawmaker22
You may be happy to know that Pope Benedict XVI himself wrote (*de fide*) that ALL SSPX sacraments are _valid and licit,_ and their Masses could be attended, period. That the SSPX was NOT and _never had been in schism!_ It's been YEARS since he wrote the documents, and really angered the Modernists and "Conservatives," alike! It was quite a huge (& very loud) flap in the N.O. world.
BTW: The N.O. was promulgated, but NEVER did V2 (nor any later writings) teach that the TLM was somehow "disallowed". NO POPE can do that, anyway.
ALSO: "disobedience" has NEVER, EVER been a VALID excuse (under Canon Law) for excommunication! So, there you have it: you may go. 😊
@@lawmaker22Study the Mass and you will be drawn to the Traditional Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo rite was formed by a committee in four years. The TLM traces its rites to "the beginning."
@@marccrotty8447 I do attend tlm
I owe so much to the SSPX! I love them and support them 100%. During covid they were the only ones that were soldiers for Christ supplying Sacraments for the faithful. They truly care about the salvation of souls. When my family needed a priest the most they were there. They are holy priests.
Does Peter matter?
@@atrifle8364 does the salvation of souls matter when a loved one is dying and the only priests willing to hear their confession and give them their last sacraments is a priest of the SSPX. I’m sorry but actions speak louder than words, they are the true soldiers of Christ
@@Cristero4718 this is a very poor argument. We are not Protestants. We have to obey the pope where he has authority. And he does and that ought to be respected. Just because there are misgiving that the church is teaching and that they are not fulfilling their roles as leaders does not mean we have a right to dissent or be schismatic. Think about saint Athanias he got exiled multiple times and always followed the orders for him to do so. We ought to look at the examples of the Saints and follow them. And being schismatic is not what they did. God bless!
I personally know of a case of an elderly woman dying in the hospital during the COVID lockdowns. The SSPX priest refused to visit her. The diocesan priest brought her the sacraments.
@@atrifle8364 yes Peter matters. The SSPX believes in Apostolic Succession. But what happens when a Pope teaches things that contradict Peter? What happens when a Pope isn’t even Catholic himself? At point would you choose the Catholic Faith over a current Pope that has left the Faith himself? Francis has an idol on an altar, yet St. Peter condemned idol worship? St. Peter taught that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church and died as a martyr for being a missionary. But yet Francis promotes other religions and apologizes for Catholic missionaries. Who’s right and who’s wrong?
More more more .. Unite the clans and clarity of circumstances will do that. God bless you both
Very informative & helpful! Thank you for this great history lesson.
Great discussion between great men!
This reminds me of "strike the sheperd and the sheep scatter" when the leadership loses focus and we're left unable to depend on them to present us with the apostolic faith, (ie assisi) the outcome is definitely confusion and differing of opinion. The hierarchy of the church is of such necessity that when it's compromised in even a small way the church as a whole suffers.
Great interview. Thanks to Brian for hosting and asking the tough questions. Great answers Kennedy, you are well-versed on this topic and have deepened my understanding. I’m attending SSPX this week while on vacation and am much more confident in doing so after listening to this.
Fantastic! I'm an FSSP guy myself but I don't like the SSPX get slandered as this or that. They're not the boogey man.
No they are just schismatic if you are into that. th-cam.com/video/K2bmiWKsA9M/w-d-xo.html
Look up: Matt fradd Doctor John Salza. Matt fradd interviews dr. John salza. Dr. John salza was former sspx. The video is 3 hours long. God bless you.
While the society certainly has good priests and lay people, the society’s literature and institutional teachings are riddled with problems that go back to the erroneous views of its founder. If your FSSP priests have EVER celebrated a Novus Ordo, then they have committed offenses to God, at least according to the society
@@matthewvelazquez2013 he was not former sspx from what I know, I believe he was a former freemason.
@@adriandeluna3896 he attended the SSPX and converted from masonry.
So happy to see two of my favorite catholic TH-camrs having a conversation! God bless you both and your families!
God bless the traditional movement in Canada. May we see our country become the great Catholic nation it once was. Sancte Ioseph, ora pro nobis.
Excellent! Thank you both , it seems that the SSPX has stood the test of time remaining faithful to the traditions and teachings of the Church even though much of the controversy remains to be explained for the greater good of the Church.
Excellent discussion.
Both Brian and Kennedy were cordial and have an obvious love for the Church and a desire to grow in holiness and lead their families likewise.
I am a 61 year old cradle Catholic raised in the Novus Ordo Mass and who raised my family in the same. I believe that experience caused grave harm to my faith and that of my family. Thanks be to God I discovered, about 3 years ago, an FSSP parish closer to my home than the Novus Ordo parish. I vaguely heard about this parish over the years as a place where the old people go who are nostalgic. It is at this traditional parish that I rediscovered my faith, learned about the importance of all the sacraments and the many devotions I was never taught and that the holy sacrifice of the Mass is the source and summit of our prayer life with adoration, contrition, thanksgiving and supplication from beginning to end. It is rightly ordered towards and about the one Triune God and not the people. This parish is young and old, vibrant and growing rapidly with people seeking an orthodox practice of the faith.
Kennedy made a convincing argument to me that it is not disobedient to attend an SSPX Mass if the occasion requires such when an FSSP Mass is not available. I have been scandalized at the Novus Ordo Mass and would want to avoid attending if options are available. I will discuss with my parish priest and bishop.
My FSSP priest said that under extreme circumstances I could go to the SSPX man.
@Carolyn Kimberly
Carolyn, you may be happy to know that Pope Benedict XVI himself stated that ALL SSPX sacraments are valid *and* licit, and their Masses could be attended, period. That the SSPX was *not* and _never had been_ in schism! BTW: "disobedience" has NEVER, EVER been a _VALID_ excuse (under Canon Law) for excommunication! So, there you have it: you may go under *any* circs, whether "extreme", or no. 😊
@@fairyspunfibers9098 I would be uncomfortable there. They have put themselves outside the jurisdiction of the Pope which is schism.
@@carolynkimberly4021 No, not SSPX. SSPV certainly has. They're 2 different factions.
I just stumbled on this interview. Very informative and interesting and glad to see the way Kennedy lays everything out so well. Thank you!
Great work Kennedy. Thank you Brian.
I wouldn't attend masses by the SSPX, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone for doing so.
I think Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the SSPX have been treated so unfairly by those in Rome.
May history vindicate them.
Lefebvre was a schismatic that had to be excommunicated because he started acting like he was his own pope. No bishop can appoint other bishops. He was treated with great mercy for a long time. But he died outside the Catholic church, and he is now in hell. SSPX is schismatic. They are tricksters. They lure people in with a truly reverent liturgy, which everyone is hungry for. Then, gradually, they try to get you to break away from the Catholic church by telling a huge number of lies. They sound important because they can quote canon law, etc, but they are basically all liars. That is the sad conclusion I came to after studying them for about 10 years. No one should attend their masses.
Agreed, except I’d have no qualms about attending their masses.
Does Peter make meaningful decisions in running the church? Does he ever get a defense? Is Peter ever treated unfairly?
1. Yes
2. He’s not the defendant here, he’s the prosecutor
3. Within the Church? No, I’d argue he’s treated like a God who is de facto infallible. If anything, Peter (Pope) is treated heretically by most Catholics.
5 decades of disobedience.
This is gonna be interesting. Thanks!
This was an excellent exchange between two brothers in the Faith. Kennedy Hall is so thoroughly enjoyable to watch.. i learned a lot. Thank you !
It’s tough to live in a time when there’s a legitimate chance good men are being persecuted by the Church for being faithful to Christ. Or…maybe that happens pretty frequently.
It’s tempting to throw up one’s hands and say we all just need to obey our church hierarchy, or to say all that matters is our own conscience…but this dialogue encourages the “deeper dive” because it’s not impossible to know what’s true; we should take the time to ponder these things.
I’m not sure we need to come to a definitive conclusion on every issue, but this dialogue, like others, brings up good points and differing perspectives that are worth chewing on.
I think in hindsight we’ll see everything for what it was…for today, we follow Christ and His Church, and sometimes sincere Catholics will butt heads. The Church has canonized saints who followed an anti-Pope…there will be grace. But we must take time on these hard cases, and not make knee-jerk reactions.
Appreciated this dialogue, I definitely heard a new perspective on the SSPX.
Brilliant interview. Well done 👏
Great conversation!
I’m rewatching this interview a year later for the second time and it just yet again validates why Brian is my favorite Catholic TH-camr
Good discussion. Informative and enjoyable.
Good content. Thanks for the interview.
The Blessed Mother led me to the perfect home 4 blocks from SSPX chapel. So blessed to be there. Wonderful priests and Nuns. Now teaching my grandchildren at the Academy.
Great discussion. Thank you for having Kennedy on.
During the pandemic when most churches were closed… I asked a close friend / priest from Opus Dei if I can go to an SSPX Mass and confession. Without skipping a beat he said “ yes.” I began looking into the SSPX deeper after that. Thanks for this video.
Your friend was wrong to tell you that.
Fantastic job both Brian and Kennedy.
Great interview. Thank you for helping others to understand the truth about the SSPX. For those who love Carmelite spirituality, they also have a traditional 3rd order.
Isn't Francis persecuting them?
@@patrickmelling8404 It’s not just Francis. It was every Pope since Vatican II up until Pope Benedict who reversed the restrictions and gave the Traditional orders a new lease of life. Francis is going back to the restrictions because he sees the modernist revolution is under major threat from the traditional movement.
@Patrick Smelling
Ha! BerGOGlio persecutes anyone who dares to disagree with his foul, demonic Pachamama & Modernist agenda! But, all Popes after V2 have done the same to one degree or another, so there is that...
For those who may be unaware, "Pachamama" _is the _*_actual_*_ name of a demon._
I am VERY interested. There's no SSPX near me..
How would I become a 3rd order Carmelite? I registered in a Latin Mass parish in the neighboring diocese because my bishop isn't generous with TLM.
@@TheAmosTree There was nothing to reverse. Benedict simply affirmed that.
Pope John Paul II encouraged bishops to be generous in offering TLM to the faithful, and many ignored him.
Selective obedience.
Great interview guys
Excellent podcast! Thanks for doing it! I attend Latin Mass within the Catholic Church (I am very blessed to have one close). But, if I didn’t have one close & an SSPX was there, I most definitely would go there! Godbless Kennedy & Brian!
Wow!
Kennedy Hall, you did an exceptionally good job in explaining the various positions about the SSPX.
I wonder what Brian and others who attend the FSSP, and ICTK will do when Francis disbands these institutions. Back to the N.O. or to the SSPX. If it's the N.O. Mass, then their reason for attending the TLM was due to preference. The choice may come sooner than they think.
Arch Bishop Lefebvre, pray for us.
Viva Cristo Rey!
@T P
I've been wondering that, myself!?! What will they do when they realize the separation of the wheat from the chaff is continuing apace, and that this is part of it?
GREAT INTERVIEW!!
Best discussion on this issue to date! Thanks to both of you for a great podcast.
I heard the one with E Michael Jones and Michael Davies was great too
Thanks Brian great interview
It's about time that someone had the courage to open this kind of dialogue. I'm on the road to converison, and through this path of investigation and discernment I've obviously encountered a variety of different Catholic practices and communities.
I was drawn to Catholicism in part because of the beauty of the Tradition and the TLM (thinking that that's what Catholics were all about). When I first witnessed Novus Ordo masses I felt nearly scanaldized. They seemed to be Anglican Lite, or Catholics LARPing as Protestants, and it left a foul taste in my mouth.
But at the same time, when investigating the TLM I was confused and concerned, particularly when I first heard about the SSPX.
I want to become Catholic because of the Authority that protestants lack. Unfortunately all the discussions I've witnessed about the SSPX have been hearsay coming from people who oppose it, and as such I've avoided it altogether for fear of disobedience.
So it's finally nice to hear a defence/discussion of the SSPX straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.
God Bless you both!
Hopefully this sort of dialogue continues and we'll see more mainstream Catholic channels offering a seat at the table for honest discussion regarding the SSPX.
Look up: Matt fradd Doctor John Salza. Matt fradd interviews dr. John salza. Dr. John salza was former sspx. The video is 3 hours long. God bless you.
@@matthewvelazquez2013 I'll be sure to give it a watch!
You man like the one Rome has been having with them for 5 decades?
Salza is a freemason.
How disappointing it was that Fradd did not vet his guest and presented him as an expert.
Salza is a lawyer and author.
He writes sensationalized accounts because it sells. He didn't achieve a very high degree in freemasonry so he filled his book on them with a lot of dramatic fiction that was meant to shock. Things like nudity and bondage. Garbage for readers of junk food. He has done the same with the SSPX. I am not SSPX but it has been demonstrated many times that Salza is a con.
Let the church hierarchy speak on the SSPX. We don't need Salza.
Do you consider what Pope Benedict stated to be hearsay?
My husband and I started attending a SSPX chapel 3 1/2 hr drive one way from our home. It’s amazing. Thank you Kennedy for all you do to defend the SSPX!
Amazing dedication and example of sacrificing to attend Holy Mass. Thank you.
Great episode! Thanks, things are much clearer now 👍
That was an excellent discussion.. For those with open minds and desire to know the truth, they will come to the conclusion that not only is it safe to attend an SSPX Mass, but in a short time, Brian
himself will be going to an SSPX CHAPEL exclusively 😊
It sure does look like Rome is an apostasy right now
I've read everything which screams schism regarding the SSPX, the Vatican one argument mainly I find difficult regarding SSPX's position in the church.
All that said, as a father of 4, every Norvus ordo 'only' parish in my diocese I find is so lacking in continuity with tradition and I feel can be damaging to the faith (I'm being honest here and saying what I truly feel), weird music, people not treating our Lord as sacred when receiving, lay people giving out communion in nearly empty pews, flutes and guitars all out of tune, no latin at all... I fear if I obey and just go to my local parish then there's a greater danger to my family.
Today I went to a sung latin mass and again being honest it screams sacredness and beauty
Francis is now BANNING our Lord from diocesan churches and removing him to a garage and underground, this i find unacceptable and unjust
You are the spiritual pillar for your children. We had a pretty reverent Novus Ordo parish, but 8 of my 12 no longer attend Mass. I wish I had adhered to TLM. I will spend the rest of my days praying & fasting them back.
@@annaru3814 Last year I visited an SSPX chapel where I spoke to a man who is one of the pillars there. Many of his children and their families attend there as well. He and his wife were so disheartened with the NO in 1982 that, against much resistance from friends and family, they switched to the SSPX. All of their children (including one who is an SSPX priest) and 59 (I'm pretty sure that's the number he said) grandchildren are practicing Catholics.
If you live near the SSPX, give them a visit.
Outstanding!! One of the very best discussions about this topic. Well done to both of you for your charity and genuine approach to this subject. That was edifying use of my time this morning, highly recommend this and will share to many.
Great interview
Thank you, Brian.
1:04:59 Concerning people leaving the Church after VCII and that some how being a paradox because they had a “pre VCII catechesis” shouldn’t their faith have been stronger? Well in my experience, people viewed all these drastic changes as a revolution. Statues, artwork, altar rails were removed. Lay people distributing communion, the entire repertoire of Gregorian chant thrown out and choirs dismissed etc. Many people left broken hearted because the religion they had been instructed in was “self destructing” and the hierarchy was telling them it was for their own good. The Church left them more appropriately. Others may have thought if they can change all of these things, it must not be that serious of a matter after all…
This cannot be emphasized enough.
My grandparents educated before and spent half their lives going to Mass before VII never once mentioned the changes. My grandfather sang in the choir.
Okay, my grandmother showed me how she would put a Kleenex on head if she had forgotten her chapel veil.
That people were frustrated and disturbed I believe. It also was maybe not as traumatic to the average pewsitter as we are being told. In any event we're talking about something fading out of living memory
I’m 59 , from what I experienced , once the changes took place , such as the change from , no meat on Fridays , to “it doesn’t matter anymore “
This really effected people’s Faith , because a few years before they were told that not abstaining on Friday was a sin , now it’s not …… so then people stated questioning other things , like divorce or contraception, I mean if one thing can change, why not another ?
This rapidly lead to indifference…. That’s pretty much where we are today.
@@camovets5719 Lots of people commenting on this clearly never lived through the chaos, or they would have at least a modicum of empathy for why Lefebvre acted the way he did.
The ones that truly kept the faith whole and entire, especially on the Church's teachings on the papacy, were the sedevacantists. They KNEW popes could not and cannot be heretics.
The interview was very well done You do a great job at dialogue.
We are obedient to Christ the King, to the Faith the Church has professed for millennia; that which is in opposition to this is error. Christ gave us the truth and the truth does not change.
Kennedy is inspiring and a crusader for the truth and restoration of the Faith. I was blessed to know Archbishop Lefebvre and he was a saint. He radiated humility and holiness. When he spoke you felt the fire of the Holy Ghost. I thank God for his faith, vision and prophetic foresight. Thank you
Thanks Brian for having Kennedy on.
Kennedy, Archbishop Schneider and Archbishop Lefebvre (who should be a Saint) heroic God's given Grace a stand out against Modernism.
Has convinced me SSPX is a True Holy Catholic defender of our Faith.
Who believe in the Foundations Traditions, Magisterium and Scripture.
I don’t think I can name a single saint who defected from Rome unto his death.
@@tatort00t97
You couldn't have looked very hard.
Just type in on a Google search how many Saints have been excommunicated.
Pax
@@tatort00t97 Jeanne d'Arc?
@@Christofascist_Hup She was excommunicated wrongfully, but she wasn’t defiant to the pope like Lefebvre was
@@tatort00t97 Lefebvre was so obedient to the Pope that he prayed for him at every Mass and used the liturgical texts that the Pope issued, even though he thought they were not as good as what came before. Lefebvre was heroic and prophetic.
I don’t attend SSPX, but have nothing but love and respect for catholics who do attend those chapels. Im with Bishop Athanasius Schneider and his view of the matter. The traditional latin mass is a liturgical treasure that needs to be preserved. I thank God for archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, a stallion of tradition in the midst of modernism.
The SSPX love a liturgy more than they trust Jesus and His Church. It is a dishonest form of Protestantism. Luther had valid criticisms too. It didn't make the actions correct.
@@atrifle8364 That's not true at all. The young men who asked Marcel Lefebvre to start the society were so disgusted with the vile unchristuan behaviour they were subjected to in the post v2 seminaries did so precisely because they love Jesus and the church and thry could see modern sensibilities were going to destroy her (you cant tell me they were wrong). On the flip side you could argue that V2 and its proponents love the world and modernity and the opinions of man more than they love Christ and His Church. You could say they have commited the sin of papolotry which is not the same as loving and respecting the papacy. A non sspx priest once likened the SSPX to St John who remained at the foot of the cross while Our Lord suffered and he asked who in their right mind would say John should have abandoned our Lord in order to follow Peter who fled. And ask yourself this of the Latin liturgy. Why is it the only liturgy that gets trampled on? Why are all the others respected and left alone while our liturgy gets dumped on and taken from us? I'm sure you'd call it bigoted and small minded if other people of other liturgies and religions had their customs stripped from them.
Pretty sure that Lefebvre was excommunicated dude...
Amen!
Traditionalism in Catholicism is more about holding to the orthodoxy of faith. This can include a liturgical form or not.
There is a direct correlation between the Tridentine Mass and the orthodoxy of faith. If they veer off, it is with matters of obedience. There are very many conservative NO Catholics who hold to the orthodoxy of faith even though they do not attend a unicorn Mass. But we also know a lot of liberal or modernist Catholics attending the NO parishes.
There can be issues on both sides. I wish people would address this instead of pointing fingers.
Which I know Tage, you did not. I attend the NO. I don't condemn the SSPX either. I know it varies from chapel to chapel but as long as they are recognizing the Pope and praying for him (because let's face it, he needs a lot of prayers) I stand with Bishop Schneider's position also. Both Popes Benedict and Francis have made movements towards recognizing the SSPX.
Why are people crying disobedience and yet discounting the assessments of our hierarchy?
They took away the TLM in my diocese. Never thought I would be attending SSPX, but here I am.
Our SSPX has been such a gift and a blessing and there is no question in my mind when I compare it to my time in the NO. I thank God all the time for
the SSPX for Lefebvre and his holiness. Love him so much for his courage and his legacy. He is without a doubt a saint.
So many people on here are judging both the Society and Archbishop Lefebvre with obviously zero understanding of what was happening in the Church, especially in France and Germany, in the years immediately following Vatican II. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback now in 2023, but we aren't experiencing what Lefebvre experienced in the madness of 1965-1975, when everything he had been taught to believe could never change DID change, when things such as the TLM that had been held up as immutable and valid for all time were ostensibly banned, etc. So when seminarians approached him begging him to start a seminary that would train them in the traditional manner, as the diocesan seminaries in France had gone completely off the rails, what was he supposed to do? Nothing?
One can disagree with the prudence of the Econe consecrations and yet recognize that Lefebvre was responding to real problems that virtually no one else in the Church was willing to address.
If anything Lefebvre would have been more aware that the Latin Rite is not the only rite in the Catholic Church. He would have been more aware of the very real problems the NO was attempting to correct in the Latin Rite. There was no excuse for disobedience. Was one liturgy really worth it? As a bishop did he not have enough authority to put right the NO in his own diocese and incorporate pieces of traditional formation? Of course he did
At heart, the rejection of Vatican II by blaming modernism on it, rather than seeing it as the Church's answer is about ironically a modern rebellion. Everyone seems to know better than a council of bishops and several popes since then. If I believed the SSPX, Jesus abandoned His Church mid 20th century and the gates of Hell did prevail. /shrug
@@atrifle8364Tell me you’ve done zero research into the Econe consecrations without telling me that. Because if you believe the SSPX situation is solely about liturgy, I am afraid you are sorely misinformed.
@@devinbramel9546 - I don't need to do endless research. There is always a rationalization for disobedience. As bishop he could have excelled at the implementation of VII. That's not what he chose.
@@atrifle8364 Please describe precisely what "implementing Vatican 2" would have meant, because I would hazard you would have a difficult time describing what that would be, since "Vatican 2" is far more than just the one document Sacrosanctum (which, apparently, no one, not even the popes, knows how to "properly implement").
Martin Luther also addressed real problems in the Church that it seemed were going unchecked. Your argument is pure emotion and deflection
I wish there were a traditional option where I live it sounds so much better than what is available here.
I hope you find one. I attend TLM in a private home, offered by a diocesan. I thank the Lord! When I must attend the N.O., it is very saddening to see the many distractions. I just keep my head down as much as possible.
@@annaru3814 I’m glad you were able to find an option. As far as I can tell, there isn’t much if anything in the maritime provinces. The regular parish I was attending was shut down in January.
@@manonhoule625 I’m in New Brunswick but I haven’t seen anywhere near by that had a traditional mass
Great discussion. Please bring this guy (and guy's like this) back on again!
This is a helpful video, more people need to see it.
Loved this. As someone who got partially introduced into the faith by Brian and eventually made my way into an SSPX chapel here in Alberta, (and watching Kennedy because of it) this was a great discussion to hear. I also find it ironic that between the Albertan and Ontarian, the more traditional guy wasn't the Albertan lol
I happily belong to the SSPX, but I do have a problem with it. The priests absolutely refuse to offer Bible study (catechism class, yes, Bible study, no) & parishioners have been led to believe that Bible study is "protestant." Ridiculous! ...and frustrating.
I enjoyed as well. Thank you!
Thank you for being such a good interviewer, and especially on such an emotional painful topic. This was a good example of Christian charity.
Two fellow traditional Catholics having an open dialogue. Many in the traditional world can learn from these two.
I can relate so much to Kennedy with his story which lead him and his family to the SSPX. Now my children go to an SSPX academy and it has been great! Marcel Lefebvre was right!
Ruben. My kids all went to an SSPX school. They sometimes did not like the discipline yet they always complied. They received an excellent education.
Kennedy, your knowledge is impeccable. I agree with everything you say.
Thank you for having this interview. I was confirmed by the Archbishop in 1979 and served Mass at SSPX chapels for about 40 years including serving for the Archbishop three times. The SSPX has been proven to fulfill our obligation. The evil blanket statements made above bashing the SSPX are clearly wrong.
Actually, of the five siblings of Archbishop Lefebvre who became religious, three were Spiritan missionaries (René, Marcel, Bernadette). Christiane was a Carmelite, and Jeanne was also a contemplative.
The Main mission of the SSPX is the salvation of souls! Therefore, their primary focus is the formation of priests. If it wasn’t for Archbishop Lefebvre there would No Latin Mass to speak of. So yeah,!SSPX!
Brian. My apologies if some of my comments were harsh. They come from my love of the Church and respect for the SSPX and their courageous defense of Tradition. Please forgive me. You do good work.
A very lovely conversation and thorough explanation of the SSPX. A very nice commentary on Lefebvre.
Thank you for this. It seems to be a comprehensive barrage of "you're wrong and I'm right" on all sides, with heavy penalties flying about, and so many people so happy to declare the others heretics and excommunicated over violations in canon law. Are our souls saved by a love of Christ and a humble appeal to mercy for our offenses, or are we saved by winning these arguments and being in conformity with the right side?
Just returned to the SSPX chapel for good. So.much.peace.
A very well done video on the introduction to Catholic teachings on baptism. God bless brother
Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunications against the four Society bishops in 2009, he officially stated: “As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church… the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”[4]
Briam asked all the questions were all struggling with re: obedience, its reach and limits, and why.
I attend a diocesan TLM Mass but have no issue with the SSPX.
Brian is clinging to ideas that Kennedy already proved invalid. I don't think Brian is processing what is being laid out for him. This is why people who do not understand or cannot understand the literature, then be slow to have an opinion. Opinions should, like Kennedy's, be based in logic and facts, instead of emotions. There is a huge difference between obedience, which is good, and blind obedience which is what Brian seems to lean toward a few time here. Kennedy, if you run it back, wins the intellectual debate on 95% of this video. Respect to Brian for having the openness, humility, and courage to put this out. I thank you for this Brian. Kennedy, I look forward to this book of yours as I myself find myself studying myself into the SSPX. "Muckduck" lol, love Dwight.
I’m convinced, it’s the SSPX for me!!! Thanks Brian.