Before you all crucify me for not testing the headers with the same exhaust. Its more showing something that would be thrown together as a complete system on the cheap, vs something with some r&d behind it. Also on previous videos i have used the 60mm exhaust on my normal headers, it made very similar peak as the 76mm system. unlike what was seen here. It still had the reversion issue though. which is point number 2 as per the note in the video. That bump in power is mostly the dyno freaking out, due to the big dip in power before it. then the almost instant 30kw the other way which can be seen in the raw graph. it overshoots due to the way it applies the brake to hold the ramp rate. There was no extra fuel needed at this rpm point over the other system. There was of course a big amount that needed to be taken out in the dips
@@tiitsaul9036 Yeah. Seems that the dyno overcompensates reapplying the brake to try hold the ramp rate, when the power comes back in all of a sudden. which puts more force on the load cell and shows more power for a bit. much like stabbing the throttle or kicking the clutch. Im sure later dyno's could deal with it a bit better. but at end of the day it shows there is an issue with engine setup. The dips will be correct yes, even more so on the raw/ realtime graph as the smoothing brings then back up a bit. I could see it in the fuel map, had to pull massive amounts of fuel out just to make the engine run through the dips. Is a pain to tune also, as end up with big dips and peaks in the fuel map a few hundred rpm apart. so have to move / add more rpm cells and the likes. This isnt the worst ive seen this happen btw
It would be awesome to see you go over how you designed/ specced / developed your headers. There are quite a few videos about how to fabricate headers but hardly any about how to size/ design them from scratch for purpose. Love the look of yours!
There is some info out there if you dig around, but yeah nothing solid unless start spending some money. Ive taken a few ideas from here and there. Then a lot of trial and error to get where i am so far. I think Ive got a bit more to find in there yet.
@@Garage4age yeah a lot opinions out there but people arguing different things, like some people say long primaries are better for high reving race engines and others saying the complete opposite. I have read a little synopsis stuff from Graham Bells book but may need to read it properly. If you have any particular text lmk! Would be grateful. I imagine as you say your trial and error probably is your greatest too. I want to eventually k swap my mx5 but will need to make custom headers if I do ever get the budget together for it haha.
long usually always wins. depending what they call long and short of course. There is a lot of misinformation out there. same deal with intake stuff. most people will tell you short for high rpm and long for low rpm. but isn't usually the case. I think a lot of it comes from people throwing on short headers and intake runners. The engine looks like it makes good top end. but is more that its lost /midrange rather than making more top end. Other thing to watch is the primary diameter. not sure on honda engines, but in 4age's case, a lot of the aftermarket stuff is too big. my good engine makes 150kw on 1.5" primary, which is the same size as stock blacktop 4age. going bigger doesnt make anymore power. just loss in midrange. tbh i couldn't tell you where i got the original numbers for the length i used. was a long time ago
@@Garage4age awesome thanks very much for that break down. Much appreciated. I guess most of your potential gains over a factor manifold is in the length of the primaries and the shape and merge characteristics. Unless they are undersized from the factory. Have you aimed to make yours equal length? I'm sure there will be tonnes of material to help me pick starting sizes for a k24 seeing as how widespread they are atm.
Superb-ing-ness. Aural pleasure. Lovingness, harmonies and explosion of joyousness when tacho bounces off inner spring. My Daihatsu Copen needs more Open....
It would be good to make a video about testing the same' good' headers, with and without thermal tape to see if there's any real difference. Cheers and continue the good work man.
what about the cone? those test where great!! I was shocked of the gains... there is a big area of develop in that part. Thanks for the vids always amazing info
will be doing more development when have good engine back in the car. you can see the good header in this test has a bit of a diverging cone which helps it a bit. but yes i think there is still useful gains to had with some more testing
I know it sounds dumb, but could you test a turbo manifold without the turbo, to compare against proper headers? I've seen a few street cars on my country that ran like this just before getting a turbo, and I was wondering how it would affect horsepower when compared to a 4x1 header. Love the videos!!!
Ever consider doing a very low restriction turbo setup and running 0psi? Just cylinder filling. I know all my booster cars feel stronger than NA even without any boost on the gauge. Invisible hand of the boost gods helping out.
I have a 20v silvertop sat outside this years that apparently was knocking before I bought it. It needs a rebuild but I wanna fuck with it,What would you do with it?
book from 40 years ago by Phillip Smith ...worth a read .... not sure of your cam specs, but I get header pipe 30 > 31 " from valve head, diam = 44mm o/d and tail pipe is any multiple of header length 78 mm o/d
its pretty close to that yeah! primary's are bit smaller diameter though. have tried bigger, doesn't like it. big loss down low for only a tiny bit right up top
@@Garage4age ...just remember, that those diameters are O/D and about 10% bigger to account for bends, ... if you ignore bends, = 36 mm I/D which would be close to 38 mm tube size, same goes for tail pipe = 72 mm I/D Always good to see numbers tally with real world results, ta
My first car was red 1982 ke70 corolla 1 old lady owner 102,000k's on clock it was a gem she wanted $2500 she let me have it for $1700 wish I still had it
they are modifed blacktop with 47mm plates. This engine would likely be fine with the stock blacktop 45mm plates. I just had the 47's hanging around off another project.
AFAIK maxpeedingRod is heavier than stock rod, right? So, you upgrade it on calculation stock rod cannot stand the power after mod? Is the piston head still stock?
Hey man, could you please measure up your best exhaust headers and compare it to the formula that is often used online to calculate headers length and inside diameter? formula is 850 x (360 - Exhaust valve opening duration @ 0.05" lift) / by peak HP or Torque RMP - 3? To calculate runner diameter there is a formula aswell but il skip that part and calculate it for you... Il try to calculate it fast for your engine, camshaft duration might be wrong, but somewhere in the ballpark id guess... 850 x (360 - 236) = 105400 / 8000rpm - 3 = 13.17" headers length for peak HP @8000rpm with 0.8" inside runner diameter, or 15" length for peak HP @ 7000rpm with 0.7" inside runner diameter... This runner length is a length to the first wider part of the exhaust manifold that creates a negative pressure wave for calculated peak HP @ rpm. To me, it seems a bit too short, and a lot too narrow.. Whats your opinion on this? greetz!
Yeah they are around double the length and almost double the diameter also. the diameter i use is actually the same size a factory 20v 4age. which is 1.5" od
@@Garage4age This is why its awesome to have someone as You sharing us your knowledge. Theres a lot of wrong information on the internet going around. Those header numbers did sound sketchy to me, but hey, watching your videos gave me all the answers again. Its not easy to obtain 100+HP per 1L on NA engine, and you did well over that... Your content is honestly gold.
neither. the intake noise from the itb's should always drown out the exhaust noise ! but nice even length header will give a more crisp sound. un-even will sound more tractor like
Hi, do you have a spare 4-2-1 header to sacrifice for experiment ? I have an idea but dont know what it would do to the powerband on a 4cyl. My idea is cutting the last Y pipe of the 4-2-1 (making it a 4-2 only) and running 2 small exhaust pipes with a x-pipe in the middle instead. A bit like bmw uses on their e46 inline 6 engines.
interesting idea. dont have any 4-2-1's but have some old 4-1's (the rusty ones in this vid) that one day was planning on changing to 4-2-1's. maybe able to try this along the way
A 3" exhaust? That seems needlessly large for your engine. Did 2-1/4" or 2-1/2" show you worse figures? ...Perhaps I should re-watch those power nation and engine masters videos to refresh my memory of the comparisons.
some of my other video's i try a smaller exhaust. and the exhaust back pressure one closely simulates what a small exhaust will do on engine with bigger than factory cams. even though seems like im just putting a cork in the exhaust. by exhaust i mean after the header and tuned collector section
Before you all crucify me for not testing the headers with the same exhaust. Its more showing something that would be thrown together as a complete system on the cheap, vs something with some r&d behind it. Also on previous videos i have used the 60mm exhaust on my normal headers, it made very similar peak as the 76mm system. unlike what was seen here. It still had the reversion issue though. which is point number 2 as per the note in the video. That bump in power is mostly the dyno freaking out, due to the big dip in power before it. then the almost instant 30kw the other way which can be seen in the raw graph. it overshoots due to the way it applies the brake to hold the ramp rate. There was no extra fuel needed at this rpm point over the other system. There was of course a big amount that needed to be taken out in the dips
If I understand currently, the dip is currect, but the bump is exaggerated?
@@tiitsaul9036 Yeah. Seems that the dyno overcompensates reapplying the brake to try hold the ramp rate, when the power comes back in all of a sudden. which puts more force on the load cell and shows more power for a bit. much like stabbing the throttle or kicking the clutch. Im sure later dyno's could deal with it a bit better. but at end of the day it shows there is an issue with engine setup. The dips will be correct yes, even more so on the raw/ realtime graph as the smoothing brings then back up a bit. I could see it in the fuel map, had to pull massive amounts of fuel out just to make the engine run through the dips. Is a pain to tune also, as end up with big dips and peaks in the fuel map a few hundred rpm apart. so have to move / add more rpm cells and the likes. This isnt the worst ive seen this happen btw
Can u try with 4-2-2 exhaust with an x pipe?
It would be awesome to see you go over how you designed/ specced / developed your headers. There are quite a few videos about how to fabricate headers but hardly any about how to size/ design them from scratch for purpose. Love the look of yours!
There is some info out there if you dig around, but yeah nothing solid unless start spending some money. Ive taken a few ideas from here and there. Then a lot of trial and error to get where i am so far. I think Ive got a bit more to find in there yet.
@@Garage4age yeah a lot opinions out there but people arguing different things, like some people say long primaries are better for high reving race engines and others saying the complete opposite. I have read a little synopsis stuff from Graham Bells book but may need to read it properly. If you have any particular text lmk! Would be grateful. I imagine as you say your trial and error probably is your greatest too. I want to eventually k swap my mx5 but will need to make custom headers if I do ever get the budget together for it haha.
Tool I mean.
long usually always wins. depending what they call long and short of course. There is a lot of misinformation out there. same deal with intake stuff. most people will tell you short for high rpm and long for low rpm. but isn't usually the case. I think a lot of it comes from people throwing on short headers and intake runners. The engine looks like it makes good top end. but is more that its lost /midrange rather than making more top end. Other thing to watch is the primary diameter. not sure on honda engines, but in 4age's case, a lot of the aftermarket stuff is too big. my good engine makes 150kw on 1.5" primary, which is the same size as stock blacktop 4age. going bigger doesnt make anymore power. just loss in midrange. tbh i couldn't tell you where i got the original numbers for the length i used. was a long time ago
@@Garage4age awesome thanks very much for that break down. Much appreciated. I guess most of your potential gains over a factor manifold is in the length of the primaries and the shape and merge characteristics. Unless they are undersized from the factory. Have you aimed to make yours equal length? I'm sure there will be tonnes of material to help me pick starting sizes for a k24 seeing as how widespread they are atm.
Superb-ing-ness. Aural pleasure.
Lovingness, harmonies and explosion of joyousness when tacho bounces off inner spring.
My Daihatsu Copen needs more Open....
Hit like without watch the video, already know every time good videos, thanks dude!
Thank for all that you do to make these videos! bloody gold alright
It would be good to make a video about testing the same' good' headers, with and without thermal tape to see if there's any real difference. Cheers and continue the good work man.
Your extractor are nasty bro, love it, make this big port great again...
v6 commodore resonators are my favorite
Great content as always
what about the cone? those test where great!! I was shocked of the gains... there is a big area of develop in that part.
Thanks for the vids always amazing info
will be doing more development when have good engine back in the car. you can see the good header in this test has a bit of a diverging cone which helps it a bit. but yes i think there is still useful gains to had with some more testing
Excelent work..greeting from patagonia argentina
a like for the smoke ring achievement
I know it sounds dumb, but could you test a turbo manifold without the turbo, to compare against proper headers? I've seen a few street cars on my country that ran like this just before getting a turbo, and I was wondering how it would affect horsepower when compared to a 4x1 header. Love the videos!!!
Yes please... Considering doing this on my bmw m20
Could you please test vag R8 red ignition coils and how much better they are than stock?
Also remote mount turbos would be an interesting test case.
Remote mounting honestly is terrible
@@Christdeliverme well then wouldn’t a test be great to prove that?
Ever consider doing a very low restriction turbo setup and running 0psi? Just cylinder filling.
I know all my booster cars feel stronger than NA even without any boost on the gauge. Invisible hand of the boost gods helping out.
but why ?!?
You must have very weak NA cars then...
I think you are feeling that turbos low down torque. A small turbo does that well. Feel it all the time in the boosted one.
Thank you bro 👍
I need a set of those headers for my 20v
I have a 20v silvertop sat outside this years that apparently was knocking before I bought it. It needs a rebuild but I wanna fuck with it,What would you do with it?
We should do some header experiments with boost.
You are the best
good looking car!
book from 40 years ago by Phillip Smith ...worth a read .... not sure of your cam specs, but I get header pipe 30 > 31 " from valve head, diam = 44mm o/d and tail pipe is any multiple of header length 78 mm o/d
its pretty close to that yeah! primary's are bit smaller diameter though. have tried bigger, doesn't like it. big loss down low for only a tiny bit right up top
@@Garage4age ...just remember, that those diameters are O/D and about 10% bigger to account for bends, ... if you ignore bends, = 36 mm I/D which would be close to 38 mm tube size, same goes for tail pipe = 72 mm I/D
Always good to see numbers tally with real world results, ta
1.6cc 210bhp
50to60 @ 60to76/// +6 bhp
My h22 honda 2.2cc 260bhp
Only Catback 50@76 +20 bhp
If was 2.2cc 210bhp 60@76mm +6bhp?
Makes me want to build an NA car
Does the collector area near 76mm is better than smaller?
What is a new hearder🤷
young collie ?
Do the Hyclone test :-P
just googled it. wow
What lengthe and size are the primarys on your manifold?
My first car was red 1982 ke70 corolla 1 old lady owner 102,000k's on clock it was a gem she wanted $2500 she let me have it for $1700 wish I still had it
No cert donut for you bro?
1:27 Is that torque right??? How can it be 400 nm in a NA 1.6 L 😳
Its torque at the wheels, not at engine.
20V silver top ITBs or black top ITBs ??
they are modifed blacktop with 47mm plates. This engine would likely be fine with the stock blacktop 45mm plates. I just had the 47's hanging around off another project.
AFAIK maxpeedingRod is heavier than stock rod, right? So, you upgrade it on calculation stock rod cannot stand the power after mod? Is the piston head still stock?
they are lighter than stock rods. few videos back has the weights of all stock 4age rods minus bluetop stock smallport pistons yes
Sorry i just realized u made the video . Thanks for the reply..
Hey man, could you please measure up your best exhaust headers and compare it to the formula that is often used online to calculate headers length and inside diameter?
formula is 850 x (360 - Exhaust valve opening duration @ 0.05" lift) / by peak HP or Torque RMP - 3?
To calculate runner diameter there is a formula aswell but il skip that part and calculate it for you...
Il try to calculate it fast for your engine, camshaft duration might be wrong, but somewhere in the ballpark id guess...
850 x (360 - 236) = 105400 / 8000rpm - 3 = 13.17" headers length for peak HP @8000rpm with 0.8" inside runner diameter, or 15" length for peak HP @ 7000rpm with 0.7" inside runner diameter...
This runner length is a length to the first wider part of the exhaust manifold that creates a negative pressure wave for calculated peak HP @ rpm. To me, it seems a bit too short, and a lot too narrow.. Whats your opinion on this? greetz!
Yeah they are around double the length and almost double the diameter also. the diameter i use is actually the same size a factory 20v 4age. which is 1.5" od
@@Garage4age This is why its awesome to have someone as You sharing us your knowledge. Theres a lot of wrong information on the internet going around. Those header numbers did sound sketchy to me, but hey, watching your videos gave me all the answers again. Its not easy to obtain 100+HP per 1L on NA engine, and you did well over that...
Your content is honestly gold.
Hay, what are you using to brake the rollers? cheers
Its an old vane bed. (now mainline) has a telma cc135 retarder brake.
Real question - what sounds better?
neither. the intake noise from the itb's should always drown out the exhaust noise ! but nice even length header will give a more crisp sound. un-even will sound more tractor like
What size itbs you running?
47mm
Hi, do you have a spare 4-2-1 header to sacrifice for experiment ? I have an idea but dont know what it would do to the powerband on a 4cyl. My idea is cutting the last Y pipe of the 4-2-1 (making it a 4-2 only) and running 2 small exhaust pipes with a x-pipe in the middle instead. A bit like bmw uses on their e46 inline 6 engines.
Some inline 4 motorcycles use that configuration and im curious.
interesting idea. dont have any 4-2-1's but have some old 4-1's (the rusty ones in this vid) that one day was planning on changing to 4-2-1's. maybe able to try this along the way
@@Garage4age that would be really interesting. Thanks a lot for the answer !
A 3" exhaust? That seems needlessly large for your engine. Did 2-1/4" or 2-1/2" show you worse figures?
...Perhaps I should re-watch those power nation and engine masters videos to refresh my memory of the comparisons.
Nice smoke ring.
some of my other video's i try a smaller exhaust. and the exhaust back pressure one closely simulates what a small exhaust will do on engine with bigger than factory cams. even though seems like im just putting a cork in the exhaust. by exhaust i mean after the header and tuned collector section
I'm wondering how hard you could troll everyone asking for 20V content if you got a Volvo 5 cylinder.
haha keen, 5cylinders do sound cool