I have a really hard time understanding why folks felt like the utilitarianism debate was hamstrung by it being "elementary". The whole thing wasn't meant to be a debate over the merits or issues with utilitarianism. The whole debate was a huge trap. If you support utilitarianism, you lose. If you don't support utilitarianism, you lose. Remember - Taravangian comes in with the argument that he KNOWS BEST, and that Jasnah (who is proudly a utilitarian), agrees with him. The main objections to utilitarianism is that when taken to extremes, it becomes incredibly obvious that there are huge issues with "sacrifice 1 person to save 2". Common objections, in my understanding, fall into 2 general categories - arguments against "perfect information" and arguments against "definition of utility". Most of the former is explicitly covered during the debate - Jasnah understands that operating from limited information makes "naive utilitarianism" not tenable. However - she's arguing against a divinity - who has a LEGITIMATE claim to being able to make "perfect information choices". But this is TRICKY! This means that Taravangian completely bypasses a whole category of arguments against utilitarianism! Therefore, in order to counter Taravangian, Jasnah must attack utilitarianism from the "definition of utility" side. However - arguing AGAINST the idea that Taravangian has a good understanding of "what is best" - simply means pointing out all of the ruthless shit he does in the name of the "greater good". But doing so forces her to completely cede HER moral high ground, since Taravangian came with receipts! She can either concede that she's doing the same thing as Taravangian, and thus concede he'd would do a better job due to having divine information, or she can concede that she's doing things more selfishly. Either case means that she loses. The strength of the debate doesn't lie in the fact that the philosophical arguments are complex or not. It lies in the fact that there was no way for her to win. Conceding that Fen should "make the best choice for her people" means Taravangian wins. Conceding that Fen should "make the best choice for Roshar" means doing the utilitarianism debate - which means Taravangian wins due to having the overwhelming information advantage. I think it was brilliantly done, and I'm surprised that folks didn't like it.
This is a perfect rundown, and I thought it was rather well done, especially because jasnah explicitly acknowledges she cannot say something that comes relatively standard in utilitarianism which is that she is “morally obligated to do the best she can with the informations available” because yeah tarvangian just has so much more information
I also think we're meant to be frustrated with Jasnah here - her approach was all wrong for the kind of person Fen is. She would have fared much better if she tried to connect with Fen on an emotional level (which Jasnah wouldn't have done because of who she is at this point in the story).
I will make some corrections though because I do study ethics and am familiar with the debates. You are missing a third category of argument against utilitarianism, which usually relies on the killing let die distinction. The second category is also not often present, it’s rly part of the first because the problem isn’t utility per se it’s that many argue making comparisons between the utility values of two people is impossible. The other thing that is important is that both of the characters are clearly act utilitarians which inform this argument. Its also important as a final note to correct the problem the information presents, it is not that taravangaian sidesteps a whole section of arguments against utilitarianism (these aren’t good arguments anyway and I can elaborate if need be). It’s that Jasnah can’t make a number of claims about her own actions, specifically she cannot now say “I do the best I have with the information available as is reasonable” this would be what most would say in a argument like this, and if Jasnah was arguing with a mortal she would say this, in fact she explicitly acknowledged that in the book. The problem is if she says “I given the information available declare that all your actions have not been in pursuit of the greater good” or some variation there of, tarvangian can just claim with 100% legitimacy to have more information and then Jasnah just lost
Cultivation is master class genius. Maybe giving her too much credit but - SPOILERS - that quote from RoW about Todium being groomed to hold his shard “with honor”, the whole thing with lift being given the boon to “not change” recontextualized in a world that has no stormlight she can still produce her own powers. The whole set up with nightblood kinda working out for the best. She looks away from Todium and that lets him save his family which later plays into his hypocrisy at the end. And last thing - her shard has wanted off Roshar / the contract forever and she pushed Dalinar to seek the histories which ultimately led to the situation where she can leave!!! Idk imo she got everything she wanted
Wait…you’re right. There’s no way she did all of this accidentally, especially the Lift thing. And Honor spends a lot of time talking about how she loves to play from the shadows and yet her Kharbranth move is anything but subtle. It’s actually quite flagrant, unless it was a plan within a plan.
I think she also set Taravangian up to have that Achilles heel of Kharbranth in the Spiritual Realm. She definitely knew he would sequester it like that.
Nah, you are giving her too much credit, she didn't help honor, she was trying to be sneaky, but she failed, every plan and plan B she made has failed. And she fled Roshae with the tail between her legs. I don't like cultivation at all, all she did was try to lecture both Honor and Odium, never picking a side, never making a decision. The only good thing from her was sheltering Dalinar from the truth until he was ready for it
@@17thShardI am here for Eric’s BAM rant…when nothing Epic happened after she was released I could hear Eric freak out in my head…😂…3 years of hearing Eric talk about BAM does that to us…😂
Bro I don't know if you guys comment on this later on the podcast, I still have another half left. But I think you missed that Taln is native from roshar, he is not from ashyn, that is why he didn't broke
@@omniboy-prime it was his grandmother I believe. I wouldn’t say him being native to roshar was a specific reason for him not breaking though, it just seems to be a direct result of his strong character.
@@JorgeMorge yes yes I think you are right. I Guess for me this is one of the Things that completes his charachter. He has real Intent in protecting Roshar.
The parallel between Szeth in his flashbacks externalizing his problems to others because morality was too difficult and no adults being responsible enough to teach him how to navigate those choices and leaving him stunted with a literal physical representation of his willing lack of agency (oathstone) and him continuing to externalize with Kaladin in this book was so good to me, because Kaladin as a protector and caregiver is so quick to offer a gentle and considerate perspective BUT also repeatedly return the agency to Szeth. it felt like the first time someone forced him to take his questions internally while knowing there was someone there to support him regardless. Like Neturo meant well and clearly loved his son, but wanted to shelter him from hardship, while Kaladin wanted to show him you can face hardship, and thus protected himself from the pain of living with the consequences of others' choices. UGH so good to me. also, Knights of Wind and Truth being written by his future wife, coupled with his fifth ideal swearing, were so powerful to me, because I really felt the completion of his arc with him becoming the principle actor in his own story.
It was my favorite Stormlight book personally. Not surprised it divisive, but I’m a bit surprised the cast here mostly ranks it towards the bottom of the series. I think it’s the strongest one thematically as well as the most unique and experimental Stormlight book. Never read another book like this one.
In my opinion Szeth Kaladin Adolin and the first half of Shallan is peek... the spiritual realm stuff got tiresom and just felt dragged out... oh also! Honor and Odium chapters were amazing... the most vocal moment I had other than Kal almost dying and the spoon incident was moash basically becoming an inquisitor... oh also special mention for the Rysn and Axi interludes
I also liked it a lot, and place it among the top Stormlight books. Really good tempo throughout the book! All storylines interesting and with high stakes. Also sorry to year 17th Shared didn't like it that much.
I though the ending was a very brave thing to do, and also amazing. It safeguards some of our favorite characters to come up in part 2 in a totally different status quo, new challenges and stuff. I'm excited, even though we have a looooooooong wait ahead lol
Much like he did with Mistborn era 2 referencing the “gods” of era 1, I expect some of our favorite characters to be so revered in the second half of The archives.
I do find it very interesting the reactions to the Jasnah chapter, as I actually think the entire "debate" is sort of endemic to how debate works in the real world. We have found, particularly in recent years, that intellectual debate in a political context *doesn't seem to matter all that much.* The outcome of Jasnah's debate, regardless of the arguments that she could've brought to the table, was decided by how Fen would react, and not by how good her arguments were or weren't. Taravangian didn't need to come to the table with a good argument. He went their to Own Jasnah, casting doubt on her character and her ability to be an ally. His true victory wasn't Thaylenah-he could've gotten it by other means-it was cracking Jasnah's ego and confidence in her view of the world and more importantly, herself.
Something that I think people are really misunderstanding about the Jasnah scene is not that she doesn't understand utilitarianism, she actually shows complete understanding of utilitarianism. It's a very simple, stupid ideology, what she realizes is that she hasn't thought too deeply about how she has not been living utilitarianism, and THAT is what loses her the argument. Because Taravangian argues that she does not live as she claims, since she is not utilitarian when it comes to her family, and that she has a major hypocrisy. This hypocrisy is what loses her the argument, not her "Debating skills". Remember, Taravangian doesn't win by destroying her philosophy, he wins by destroying her character, because across the series her character has been inconsistent when it comes to her moral philosophy. Jasnah has NOT always sought what is most good for most people - she could've had elohkar assassinated, and that would've been better for far more people than letting him live, but she didn't because she loves her family. Utilitarianism is very stupid, it's not a good ideology, and Jasnah being forced to think about it more deeply in the context of how she LIVES her philosophy is the problem, not that she doesn't really understand it.
I definitely like your assessment. Taravangien has always been an insecure man wanting to be capable in defiance of what his doctors said at his birth. In defense of jasnah she never acted to increase her power but to protect her family. At worst you can claim she’s a brutal person but not self inflating. I see Jasnahs biggest flaw is ignoring the legitimacy of human emotionality, see her argument about hope. She didn’t understand fenn and was deeply humbled by todium who demonstrated that the human connection she’s never understood is a component of the human animal she needs to understand.
@ that’s one of the things that bothered me about the debate off. The only reason they are in the position they’re in is because todium used a loophole to threaten and cajole Fenn into compliance. Jasnah could just as easily lose but dear lord I wanted to scream at the characters to remember a contract alone with Todium guarantees very little.
Youre correct about the debate, but 1. All ethical philosophies are simple (if they are any good) because they must be argued from simple first principles. Simplicity is actually a virtue because it reduces the number of first principles necessary and therefore makes your argument stronger. 2. It’s not stupid, because none of the others hold up to sufficient scrutiny. Virtue ethics is almost entirely incapable of explaining what you actually should do at any given time. Deontology/ rights based is full of a number of very difficult assertions (like the killing/let die distinction) that make zero sense and is almost inoperable at its logical extreme on the political level. 3. Everyone is a utilitarian in the end (not actually true, but most are), most people justify their ethical positions on the basis of what the outcomes achieved will be, if you are looking at a system of utilitarianism that consistently produces bad outcomes, than utilitarians would reject it. Alternatively you just have done your math wrong. The true problem with utilitarianism is simply that interpersonal utility comparisons may be impossible. Anyway I study ethics so I can discuss this all day, and dump a whole paper on your but that’s why I’d say you’re wrong
I read the book in 3 days, took vacations days to do it. I enjoy the journey with the community and the amazing amount of media about Stormlight in general (videos, music, art) and is great. I love the series and continue the journey until the destination. Grettings from Mexico.
Also, the most frustrating part of the Jasnah sequences was the lack of input from Ivory. We have seen how reverent and respectful Ivory is of her, and when she falters and misses chances to rebut Taravangian's attempts to undermine her logic or reveal inconsistencies hearing Ivory's input, either whispering in her ear like, Mistress I had not considered this, should we be worried? or cheering her on and encouraging her in his usual extreme flattery would have been nice. Even after the "debate" having some more input from him reminding her how incredible she truly is would have been nice. It was definitely nice to see her humanized a bit, but it definitely was weird to miss Ivory as anything more than a passenger on her earring.
For me it's third after Oathbringer and Words of Radiance, but I still thought it was really great. Could've been better for sure, but none of the biggest plot lines fell flat for me. Very good overall.
Nightblood is now my favorite character in the cosmere, and has done so much character growth since her introduction. She's now one of the most powerful beings in the cosmere, if not _the_ outright. And her self-actualization and learning self-control has so many implications. I love how Nightblood's journey mirrored Szeth's and Kaladins
Everyone just needs to get on the Syladin train at this point. It's definitely the direction he is heading and it's being done very tastefully so I'm happy
I don’t understand how they said that Adolin’s plot doesn’t focus on spren, action, and stormlight. Maya and the dead eye spren are a major part of his arc. He was constantly fighting battles also. He didn’t just play Magic the Gathering.
More meaning that it feels much less like the high magic battles we have had for OB and RoW. The deadeye spren are key, but the combat made it feel to me a lot more Way of Kings style, which I really liked. -Eric
I was a psycho who got the book Friday afternoon and finished it Sunday morning. Literally all night Saturday spent reading. Interested in your thoughts
Yeah, just finished the book. The implications of this book for the comers are huge, so I can’t wait to hear your guy’s thoughts on this absolute banger.
And now there will be months of Wind and Truth Shardcast that will show me how stupid I am and how much I missed. Can't wait for the episodes analysing the herald/ashyn stuff. Also the magic stuff.
I fully agree that syl is the heir to the storm father. I think this means that kal in addition to being a wind runner of his new ideal is going to become a bondsmith as heir to dalinar
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 Ishar's status as Bondsmith is separate from Radiant Oaths. Kaladin is now the Windrunner Herald, while also being a Windrunner Radiant. I meant that I think Kaladin will further his bond with Syl by swearing Bondsmith ideals with her as Stormfather's Heir. His work as a therapist would blend protecting and uniting pretty well I think
I could see Kal getting access to tension as a third surge. Still a "Windrunner" just another radiant that breaks the rules because their spren is different.
@ I don’t think that makes any sense but you’re free to believe whatever you want. To me it only makes sense that the Herald of the Order would also be a Knight of that order. Nale (as far as we know) is the only Jerald to have taken oaths and become a Knight Radiant as wells Jezerian is dead and was the Windrunner Herald. So, logically it only makes sense for Kaladin to step into his slot and continue being a Windrunner. As for Syl….its possible she’s the new stormfather or something totally different. It’s also possible that a new Bondsmith spren will be created. It’s very weird that no one bonded the nightwatcher and that we never got true confirmation that she was the third one.
I have to disagree with David's defense of the Honorbearers, because he's falling into the exact same flawed line of reasoning that Szeth's arc is about overcoming. Yes, obviously if Ishar was sane then the Honorbearers obeying him would have been both good and lawful. The mistake that the Honorbearers made in obeying insane Ishar was that they chose to uphold tradition and law *even when* the specific circumstances showed that something was deeply wrong. Saying "oh, but under normal circumstances they'd have been right" completely misses the point, which is that sometimes you have to disobey the law because of complicated circumstances. Their moral flaw was blind obedience. You can't defend that flaw by saying they were obedient.
When Adolin was thinking his leg injury was temporary until he could get back to Urithiru i immediately knew that he wasn't going to die anymore and that there wouldn't be any way for him to actually heal his leg. Didn't quite see there being no more Stormlight.
The book feels like there is an absolutely incredible finale hiding in its bones and a longer editing process would have helped it reach that level. I keep thinking about how many incredible things happened and the extremely good foreshadowing but honestly, the pacing of everything just took the punch out of a lot of reveals, meaning that you keep expecting pay off for things for hundreds of pages and once you finally do see something like the Unoathed or the Contest, you're just burnt out on expectations. Also, you can't just introduce a fourth moon and imply its going to be a whole plot point then just relegate it to the back five. I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THAT MOON.
With Sigzil I liked a lot of that arc, but I agree with David that it didn't quite land with how I was picturing it after Sunlit Man. He was scared of leadership seemingly because of mistakes. I kind of wish Sigzil had made some mistakes. The other issue is we didn't really know many of the dead. I am not sure we knew any of them other than Leyton and he's not a super main character. So the losses of radiants didn't seem as big to us as they likely would've for him. I think him being blinded by hatred of Moash or planning an ambush of Moash would've been the way to go. He plans this ambush and it wasn't just Leyton being caught out. Then the fabrial activates then Leyton and a bunch of squires die as a result and they gain nothing from it and that wrecks his confidence as they pull out. Something where it was a real mistake not just a desperate situation. Especially since he's carrying this trauma 100+ years later! Also the Stormwall is a great title for a radiant I hope we get more of him as he seems cool but we know so little about him as a character. I did like though someone really using the death rattles to choose another path. That was cool! And I was expecting for a while that we'd get a relevant death rattle from an established character dying. And Leyton was about the minimum level of a character for that I expected. I was expecting it from someone bigger, but we did get that and I liked that.
to Jess's point about Mishram, I think Odium was attracted to her for a different reason than purely intent. When Tanavast arrived on Roshar there were 3 Spren of Adonalsium. Wind, Night and perhaps Stone. I have a feeling that Mishram was what happened when Night was unmade in Odium's pool, in which - yeah, Odium as a shard would be intrinsically pulled to a fraction of what it once was.
Again reinforced by Adonalsiumium being the core of Braize, attracting investiture before shards settled there, because the investiture is pulled to what created it.
This is my favourite book now. It had heroes journey, ticking clock, subverted expectation chekhovs gun and. All other writing principles. It did have some downers and weeknesses, but overall it matches the hight if mistborn finale.
2:08 The thing about cleansing Shinovar is that literally everything after he kills the soldier (besides for, you know, the real societal thing of sorting the Shin into groups "bad" and "good") is contingent on Ishar being insane and trying to fulfill his plan of replacing Jezrien with Szeth and bring Radiant Spren into the Physical Realm to be his immortal army (Jesus Christ it's impressive that amounts to 2-3 throwaway lines in the book). Szeth rises up the ranks by listening to the voice, he becomes a Stone Shaman for that reason, the Stone Shamans are evil (and are influencing the Shin?) because Ishar turned them into Fused, and the greatest problem in Shinovar when he returns from being hardened in the east is Ishar. So the cleansing is about Ishar. Of course Szeth isn't going to bring around societal change during the book (maybe in the time jump?), he's more focused on doing the sanctioned quest that Ishar is DM'ng. I also think the gauntlet of BS boss battles helps forward the theme that "cleansing" can't change the systemic issues that causes most of societies problems. Sure, he can fix the problems caused by BBEG/DM Ishar being literally insane, morally bankrupt, and a minor deity, but the cycle of violence just keeps spinning.
2:38 totally agree, there should have been more foreshadowing for the contact. Personally, I think in the Way of Kings, Sadeas should've been using the Sunmaker as a way of trying to influence Elhokar towards his POV (talking about his various exploits, perhaps giving a very biased biography of him to Elhokar for him to listen to), and one of the examples should have included the Sunmaker taking the seat of a rival King (who flees and sets up his court elsewher., and then convincing all the King's nobles to join his cause because he took the King's seat of power. This sets both the precedent that a King is in charge of his kingdom only until he loses his capital while at war, and that changing the capital doesn't count, since the King obviously did that as well. Then, in Oathbringer, Gavilar uses this precedent to subjugate one of the highprinces (I control your capital, your kingdom is forfeit, but you could become a highprince instead), which establishes that the Highprince's power flows through Gavilar, despite Gavilar not having to do anything. This also serves to characterize Gavilar as a shrewd politician, and how he's relying on the toxic legacy of the Sunmaker, giving weight to earlier arguments about the direction of the Kingdom. It also makes the loophole harder to dispute, Dalinar was there at the last time it was invoked, this isn't some archaic law that one of Nohadon's rivals put in the books and you could spend the entire length of the recorded Cosmere arguing over whether there's enough legal continuity for it to apply. But regardless, at the very least the incident that created the precedent should have been cited in that scene where Hoid is reading over the contract. Y'all were talking about how Jasnah barely understands philosophy (I think it's supposed to be a big character flaw that she represses her emotions, and insists that she is perfectly rational), and this is a very similar problem: precedents are set by decisions made regarding incidents in the past. Just take 2 sentences to explain the background of the incident, and what the decision was that set the precedent. Though, I really liked how it payed off, where the only place where the loophole was relevant was on the shattered plains, the only place where you couldn't dispute the authority of Alethi legal precedent. In Azir, control of the palace legally gave you control (in which case they did what I said to do with the loophole and *cited the incident*), and in Thaylenah the settlement was negotiated. And even there, control was ceded to the Listeners anyways. Like, it was kinda stupid, but it didn't actually matter, Taravangian's forces controlling all 10 Oathgates would've made the alliance untenable regardless of if they controlled the surrounding lands.
I liked this book quite a bit more than the non-Chaos folks. I agree the pacing was pretty good, although there were some clunky transitions to help keep that pace. I definitely liked it better than Rhythm of War, but I agree on first impression it’s not as good as Words of Radiance or Oathbringer. I need more to think about how I evaluate it compared to Way of Kings. I like it better than any non-Stormlight book except for Hero of Ages and maybe Tress.
Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk about her too much here, there was so much! Reacts 2 will have more and I imagine we will have a Shallan episode. -Eric
I don't know how to articulate it yet, but Battar being a traitor to the Heralds and working for Retribution really bothers me. It feels like that's where this is going and I really don't like it.
As someone who has not read Sunlit Man yet, I thoroughly enjoyed Sigzil's plot in Wind and Truth. I'm curious to see how my opinion is affected, but in general I think Sig has a really interesting emotional arc carrying him forward, especially considering the abruptness with which he's forced to abandon his life and hop into the Cosmere. Also, for me personally, his renunciation of his oaths was the best moment of the three in the book because it was on a smaller, personal scale (the life of his spren). Dalinar's was still brilliant. Szeth's was good for his character growth, but I think his renunciation just undercuts swearing the Fifth Ideal. I think it would have been just as--if not more--true to Szeth's growth if he said screw the Fourth and Fifth Ideals and renounced sometime before the Ishar confrontation. "I. AM. THE LAW!!" just did not hit for me, although it still was kinda cool. (Sorry that the second half of this comment has swiftly turned to Szeth lol) but I think if Sanderson wanted to have Szeth swear the Fifth Ideal, it would have been more interesting if he kept 12124 and convinced him to become a rogue Skybreaker spren, because that's literally the path he was on anyway. But it does feel like something the story could circle back to since highspren (supposedly) are not subject to same exact repercussions of renouncing oaths. Love the podcast!!
If the stormfather is Honour's version of the original Wind spren, the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's version of the Night spren, could Ba-Ado-Mishram be Odium's version of the Stone spren, about how the Dawnsingers were stoneward-esque shapers of the stone, it makes sense that the modern version of the spren is a spren of the Singers.
I'm only 30 mins into this (finished the book), but on the Voidlight archive/Warlight archive but, i didn't even think Stormlight was gone forever, I just expect it to come back somehow, even if it's not till like book 8 or 9 or something No idea how, but I'm surprised it wasn't even mentioned as a possibility Edit - re the discussion on Adolins leg, he can 100% get it back as long as he doesn't internalise it - Lift still has full stormlight access thanks to Cultivation, and IIRC stormlight (well, lifelight) works in Urithiru still if he can get there Edit 2: if Shallan leaves the Rosharan system, cus of the time dilation, we could get adult Shallan kid early on the back half
I think for the wiki, you might be able to split it into “Everstorm” and “Night if sorrows/true desolation” Also what we were calling the “true desolation” might be able to be called “the last return” although i realize that that’s quite similar to the “last desolation”/aharietiam
I seriously haven't been this excited since the first reaction to Rhythm of War. I really, really didn't want baby champion, and KIND OF still got it. I won't be boycotting the rest of Brandon's works like I'd planned, though
I was a little more okay with it because Odium made it clear that it was a blatant attempt at being thematic and I was like yeah that fits his current vessel pretty well It wasn’t even about winning, he just wanted to be right
Do you think that Zahel as a Returned had some sort of prophecy that he would need to train Adolin in a certain way to prepare him for his fight in this book?
I feel the point of Szeth finding a skybreaker cause in Shinovar was him and his spren thinking the unmade was violating the law. Nale doesn't contradict it directly because he wants him on this journey. The thing that the Honor bearers did wrong was seeing how fucked up Ishar was and doing nothing about it. As for the rebellion specifically, in Szeth's position there's next to no other choice. We see how he isn't a leader. It also kills the last vestige of agency he has until basically his death in words of radiance.
SPOILER (Just in case) - - - - I liked the Renarin and Rlain exploration but felt that making their BUDDING relationship be the factor that caused BAM to chill out after 2000 years of unjust imprisonment felt very unearned. Especially since a Singer-Human relationship was literally the thing that sprang the trap that screwed her over the first time. I was expecting some skepticism on her part honestly. In general, the 10 day schedule really caused some issues imo. From the rapid therapy to this.
I felt ROBBED at missing Taln. Also, robbed not seeing Szeth bond all the honorblades along the way and using all the surges switching blades in a final fight.
19:29 i could see "Dalinar" coming back as a brief moment of clarity, given in that scene he plants the ideas that led to his future self in the cognitive shadow of his past self. So itd be like Marsh at the end of mistbron era 1, a brief moment of clarity, and but it doesnt stick around
While I really enjoyed the Adolin character growth, I felt there was a bit much of it. It really did emphasize the struggle but I felt a bit like I was skimming parts of those sections. Same with some of the Shallan stuff near the end. I just cared about Odium vs Dalinar and Kaladin
I think of it like a trilogy and then a follow-up duology. The first three naturally go together and Oathbringer feels like solid end to the “first arc.” RoW & WaT feel distinct from those first three
@@TheCroBrosChanneland if anything I feel rhythm of war and wind and truth are the first and second half of one book. To me rhythm of war is better in hindsight with womd and truth to finish the set ups.
It didn’t have the finale feeling I wanted. Especially with a ten year wait, I think the story deserved a more conclusive ending. If the next book was coming out in 2-3 years I would have less of a problem with how unresolved things feel. It kind of feels like a 1,300 page prologue for the next five books.
At the end when Kaladin is talking to Kalak he uses the same line that Syl used on him when he stood over the honor chasm in book 1. "What harm is there in trying one more time if everything is already doomed." Loved how it came full circle.
With Shallan's child I think we will get a lot of those elements you were talking about. And I think it works better to skip ahead to a 10 year old since otherwise you only would get the new baby stuff. Which could be cool to get too but this allows you to actually have a child who can speak and have a personality. You kind of need a time jump to get the elements of Shallan established as a single mother. Shallan reuniting with Adolin and how they figure out parenting together afterwards. You also get a child who was raised in the cognitive realm which will be an interesting contrast to Gavinor who was raised in the spiritual realm. And we will get to see someone as a child experience the physical realm for the first time. And you get to see Pattern as a parent to a child who can interact back with him and have conversations. I think that will work really well in books 6 and 7 and I'm looking forward to it.
I feel sad for Jezerien man.... he just died? After leading the heralds for millenias, intiatimg the peace with the singers at the beginning before the war, and initiating the peace with Nale to form the first oatpact. Poor Jezerien
Definitely prefer an Endgame “On your left” moment in the Sanderlanche to a quick epilogue tease. I’m thinking climatic battle of book 7 and then we get to know more about how they all hung out during flashbacks in book 8
great, been waiting for this! i managed to blitz through it over last fri/sat and it has been a ton to process. i also love how much PLOT and LORE we got (caps because theres a ton) which is exactly what i enjoy the most, though i would say the volume of it here is worth critiquing. i definitely felt that we maybe didnt get enough time with all of our players individually, as there was just so much brandon was trying to stuff in here to conclude the first half. i do tend to think very holistically about things so im less put off by the problems in the book because it still contributes to the story in some way. i probably would rate this book higher than most (im a venli enjoyer), but i understand why it might not hit the same for most other people.
This whole mess is almost entirely Cultivation's fault. She should be saddled with most of the blame for the situation Roshar is in. She should be considered at least as much of a cosmere-wide villain as Retribution. I see some comments on here saying she's playing 4D chess and this is all still somehow going according to her master plan...bullsh*t. She tried to play her little game and she messed everything up then ran away.
Just wanted to mention that I had my laptop off to the side and had to check the notes a number of times - because I have a weird setup that isn’t at a computer, it means I sometimes need to look away from the camera to get information. Just in case anyone is wondering what I’m doing at certain points where I’m looking offscreen. 😊 - LadyLameness
I very much enjoyed the book, but I definitely agree with the idea that it maybe needed more time in the oven. That seems to be a really common complaint across reviews I've seen, and it's definitely something I often felt in dialog. Not through the entire book, some parts definitely stand up to Brandon's best, but it's definitely a bit uneven. I think there's a combination between it being rushed to hit the publishing date, and the newness of his new editor. Granted, it's been a few years and a few books by now, but Moshe was the guy who gave him his break and was with him for over 10 years. The relationship dynamics are going to be different between them, and whoever has taken his role, stepping in to edit one of the publisher's biggest writers. Not that I think Brandon seems like the type to ignore the input of his editor, but just their approach is going to be different not just because they're a different person, but the power dynamics are going to be different. I guess we'll see if there's some improvement there going forward. I hope tying the book releases to Dragonsteel Nexus doesn't become a regular problem going forward.
To be fair with the contract, dalinar wanted to add specifics when they were planning it but rayse said he didn't care for specifics and would honor the spirit of the contract. Tatavangian absolutely cares about specifics and will use any loophole.
On the debate: Philosophy and 'debate' do exist in the sane way as in our world - for the most part. Look at people like Richard Dawkins - a somewhat well regarded scientist whose grasp of philosophy and theology is terrible. Likewise, there are experts in politics who make terrible arguments from a philosopher's perspective. Might it have been more interesting if the debate was a little bit more nuanced? Sure. But it worked on the level it needed to work. Our POV character got a little humbled - both because she lost sight of her win condition and because she had not given sufficient thought to her personal philosophy. And it set up the idea that the antagonist both wants to recruit her and that she may actually sign up (even if it turns out to be a ruse). That said, if anyone wants to do a fan-fiction rewrite of the scene that hits the same beats but makes better arguments, it would be fun to read it!
A few thoughts. 1. I am hoping Kal and Syl just remain where they are at. There is no reason to force every relationship into a romantic one. I think of LoTR and the friendships formed there that are so amazing it would be good to have more examples of great friendships and not having to do more. I also could see part of the resolution way down the line would be to have Kal take up Honor which might be odd. 2. I thought with the debate that possibly Brandon was going to have Jasnah be Odium's champion. If she was really hard-core utilitarian and he convinced her about his vision of the greatest good that could be interesting. I don't think it would have happened, but I wonder if that was something he was going for. 3. I wonder with Sigzil if his worry and pain is worse because he basically had to jump off world without any time to talk with anyone or process his loss. Also possibly giving up the Shattered Plains to the Singers might turn into a larger problem down the road and he regrets it more as the consequences are revealed and Sigzil might have some other big failures and he just points back to the shattered plains because he uses that as the example of his failures. 4. I am worried with the doctor giving Adolin the fire weed and saying it is so addictive that we might have an arch with Adolin struggling with addiction. I feel like we already got that arch with Teft and I like having a character in Adolin who has his problems, but they are not major and losing a leg is enough.
1. I’m very surprised Shardcast unanimously agreed that Kaladin and Syl’s relationship had turned romantic in WaT - it was entirely platonic in my reading. Syl is still so childlike in many ways, I don’t think I could continue reading the series if Syladin became a thing.
The only downside to the new book is that sir Brandon sanderson keeps switching from one POV to another. My man Dalinar sacrificed himself, but because of the constant POV changes, the emotional impact didn't fully hit me until I finished the book and thought to myself, 'Oh no, Dalinar is really gone.' The writing, in my opinion, has also taken a slight dip in quality. I feel like the author doesn’t need a team of editors who agree with every idea he proposes. Some of the concepts in this book had the potential to make it a masterpiece if they had been executed flawlessly. While most were done well, some of the best ideas were left underdeveloped kind a cringe , which was disappointing||
I am glad to see Cheyenne reads books in the same way I do haha. So far 2 stormlight finished in 24 hours of release (though had already read the previews as well)
why assume Stormlight is gone forever? Retribution now produces Warlight Warlight is a mix of Voidlight and Stormlight mix Warlight with anti-Voidlight and boom - you get Stormlight you’re welcome
The great irony of this book for me is that the two staunch utilitarians show their commitment to their philosophy to be hollow, while dalinar the person who has argued so fiercely against it in the end, stands up does exactly what is required of him, he sacrifices Roshar to save the cosmere, doesn’t get more utilitarian than that.
The symbolism of Taln being stabbed by 11 spears has to be recognized. He was metaphorically stabbed by the other 9 heralds, Tanavast, and Honor. 11 betrayals, 11 spears.
Ok my take on the Jasnah/Wit relationship was that it was a piece of setting up a growth arc for Wit in the future - He's been basically omniscient and faultless until the latter half of RoW, and I felt a big part of his arc in WaT was him finally realizing/admitting that he's overly self-reliant and how that was a part of his downfall - could it have been done better?? ya for sure - but I felt like it did at least have some purpose
I will say, I absolutely picked up on the fake Formless thing, mostly just because it was the only place I thought Iyatil could have been. Plus, she did basically directly intervene any time Shallan was actually going to endager Mraize, which kind of solidified it to me
Is the 10-year gap between "halves" by outside time, or by Roshar time? Because if it's by Roshar time, centuries will pass in the rest of the Cosmere. If it's by Cosmere time, it'll be months at most in Roshar time (although they don't use months).
There was too much in this book. No idea why Brandon bothered to introduce El in RoW because El doesn’t nothing in this book too. Also BAM was interesting but also did nothing in this book. BAM was the McGuffin. We need to find her and then she doesn’t matter to Shalan or Mraize
The thought that Sigzil won’t be in the second arc of Stormlight I think wrong because of the time dilation. What will feel like a long time to him will be short to people on Roshar. I very much see him going back to Roshar for second arc.
I actually didn’t have any problems with the first two days in the text. I have heard a lot of critique regarding the beginning of the book and I was never pulled out of the text. It was actually some modern language in the second half of the book that broke the wall for me a handful of times. I was riveted from beginning to end.
As a big fan i never thought people are keen on a non platonic relationship between kal and syl? I always thought they loved each other deeply and that their bond is stronger bcs syl had to sacrifice more, and Kal was a really broken man when syl met him, and she saw hik through everything but i didn't think anything about that
Did we see any consequences for BAM release good or bad in this book? Were the dead eye spren changed at all? Did the singers change as a result? Did anything happen? I understand it becomes complicated as a result of Todium taking up the shard of honor around or at the same time but still?
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 91 | คู่เอก "คมอาวุธ vs อเล็กเซย์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V0RkEfYFsgM/mqdefault.jpg)
Strap in, this is four hours long. (Reacts 2 could be even longer) -Eric
Perfect 😆
If the the reaction video is shorter than the Audiobook it's clearly rushed.
After the audiobook 4h is just a quick listen :D
Excited!
the dream!
honestly the best part of any sanderson release is 17th shard podcast releases
I feel so empty not waiting for a specific Cosmere project right now, so thank you for the gift of two additional days of hype!
Emberdark!
I have a really hard time understanding why folks felt like the utilitarianism debate was hamstrung by it being "elementary". The whole thing wasn't meant to be a debate over the merits or issues with utilitarianism.
The whole debate was a huge trap. If you support utilitarianism, you lose. If you don't support utilitarianism, you lose.
Remember - Taravangian comes in with the argument that he KNOWS BEST, and that Jasnah (who is proudly a utilitarian), agrees with him.
The main objections to utilitarianism is that when taken to extremes, it becomes incredibly obvious that there are huge issues with "sacrifice 1 person to save 2". Common objections, in my understanding, fall into 2 general categories - arguments against "perfect information" and arguments against "definition of utility".
Most of the former is explicitly covered during the debate - Jasnah understands that operating from limited information makes "naive utilitarianism" not tenable. However - she's arguing against a divinity - who has a LEGITIMATE claim to being able to make "perfect information choices".
But this is TRICKY! This means that Taravangian completely bypasses a whole category of arguments against utilitarianism! Therefore, in order to counter Taravangian, Jasnah must attack utilitarianism from the "definition of utility" side.
However - arguing AGAINST the idea that Taravangian has a good understanding of "what is best" - simply means pointing out all of the ruthless shit he does in the name of the "greater good".
But doing so forces her to completely cede HER moral high ground, since Taravangian came with receipts! She can either concede that she's doing the same thing as Taravangian, and thus concede he'd would do a better job due to having divine information, or she can concede that she's doing things more selfishly.
Either case means that she loses.
The strength of the debate doesn't lie in the fact that the philosophical arguments are complex or not. It lies in the fact that there was no way for her to win. Conceding that Fen should "make the best choice for her people" means Taravangian wins. Conceding that Fen should "make the best choice for Roshar" means doing the utilitarianism debate - which means Taravangian wins due to having the overwhelming information advantage.
I think it was brilliantly done, and I'm surprised that folks didn't like it.
This is a perfect rundown, and I thought it was rather well done, especially because jasnah explicitly acknowledges she cannot say something that comes relatively standard in utilitarianism which is that she is “morally obligated to do the best she can with the informations available” because yeah tarvangian just has so much more information
Ohhh this is a brilliant breakdown of it
Im screenshotting this. Thanks
I also think we're meant to be frustrated with Jasnah here - her approach was all wrong for the kind of person Fen is. She would have fared much better if she tried to connect with Fen on an emotional level (which Jasnah wouldn't have done because of who she is at this point in the story).
I will make some corrections though because I do study ethics and am familiar with the debates.
You are missing a third category of argument against utilitarianism, which usually relies on the killing let die distinction. The second category is also not often present, it’s rly part of the first because the problem isn’t utility per se it’s that many argue making comparisons between the utility values of two people is impossible.
The other thing that is important is that both of the characters are clearly act utilitarians which inform this argument.
Its also important as a final note to correct the problem the information presents, it is not that taravangaian sidesteps a whole section of arguments against utilitarianism (these aren’t good arguments anyway and I can elaborate if need be). It’s that Jasnah can’t make a number of claims about her own actions, specifically she cannot now say “I do the best I have with the information available as is reasonable” this would be what most would say in a argument like this, and if Jasnah was arguing with a mortal she would say this, in fact she explicitly acknowledged that in the book. The problem is if she says “I given the information available declare that all your actions have not been in pursuit of the greater good” or some variation there of, tarvangian can just claim with 100% legitimacy to have more information and then Jasnah just lost
Cultivation is master class genius. Maybe giving her too much credit but - SPOILERS - that quote from RoW about Todium being groomed to hold his shard “with honor”, the whole thing with lift being given the boon to “not change” recontextualized in a world that has no stormlight she can still produce her own powers. The whole set up with nightblood kinda working out for the best. She looks away from Todium and that lets him save his family which later plays into his hypocrisy at the end. And last thing - her shard has wanted off Roshar / the contract forever and she pushed Dalinar to seek the histories which ultimately led to the situation where she can leave!!! Idk imo she got everything she wanted
Wait…you’re right. There’s no way she did all of this accidentally, especially the Lift thing. And Honor spends a lot of time talking about how she loves to play from the shadows and yet her Kharbranth move is anything but subtle. It’s actually quite flagrant, unless it was a plan within a plan.
@@JediBlueDoglots of chatter about her being a huge failure this book but idk that’s too easy… she’s been shown to be nothing but crafty
I agree she is playing 4D chess. Not for us mortals to understand.
I think she also set Taravangian up to have that Achilles heel of Kharbranth in the Spiritual Realm. She definitely knew he would sequester it like that.
Nah, you are giving her too much credit, she didn't help honor, she was trying to be sneaky, but she failed, every plan and plan B she made has failed. And she fled Roshae with the tail between her legs. I don't like cultivation at all, all she did was try to lecture both Honor and Odium, never picking a side, never making a decision.
The only good thing from her was sheltering Dalinar from the truth until he was ready for it
aaaaaaa hype. can't wait to hear Eric talk about BAM for 4 hours
Well not four hours, but I do have a BAM rant in here! -Eric
@17thShard i hope so she didn't really do anything lol. Can't wait to hear you rant
@@17thShardI am here for Eric’s BAM rant…when nothing Epic happened after she was released I could hear Eric freak out in my head…😂…3 years of hearing Eric talk about BAM does that to us…😂
@@17thShard the whelm of BAM's release was painfully under 😭
That guy in the tan shirt is very handsome and has some great opinions.
Respect to Taln Fans. I thought he broke because of how he spoke in WoR. I wish there was a Taln Novella now. He never broke!!!
Bro I don't know if you guys comment on this later on the podcast, I still have another half left. But I think you missed that Taln is native from roshar, he is not from ashyn, that is why he didn't broke
When they try to convince him of becoming a herald he implies being from the newest generations and one of his family was actually who came from ashyn
@@omniboy-prime it was his grandmother I believe. I wouldn’t say him being native to roshar was a specific reason for him not breaking though, it just seems to be a direct result of his strong character.
@@JorgeMorge yes yes I think you are right. I Guess for me this is one of the Things that completes his charachter. He has real Intent in protecting Roshar.
The parallel between Szeth in his flashbacks externalizing his problems to others because morality was too difficult and no adults being responsible enough to teach him how to navigate those choices and leaving him stunted with a literal physical representation of his willing lack of agency (oathstone) and him continuing to externalize with Kaladin in this book was so good to me, because Kaladin as a protector and caregiver is so quick to offer a gentle and considerate perspective BUT also repeatedly return the agency to Szeth. it felt like the first time someone forced him to take his questions internally while knowing there was someone there to support him regardless. Like Neturo meant well and clearly loved his son, but wanted to shelter him from hardship, while Kaladin wanted to show him you can face hardship, and thus protected himself from the pain of living with the consequences of others' choices. UGH so good to me.
also, Knights of Wind and Truth being written by his future wife, coupled with his fifth ideal swearing, were so powerful to me, because I really felt the completion of his arc with him becoming the principle actor in his own story.
It was my favorite Stormlight book personally. Not surprised it divisive, but I’m a bit surprised the cast here mostly ranks it towards the bottom of the series. I think it’s the strongest one thematically as well as the most unique and experimental Stormlight book. Never read another book like this one.
I do agree the theme work is incredibly strong here and I think even casters who liked it less would agree with that. -Eric
In my opinion Szeth Kaladin Adolin and the first half of Shallan is peek... the spiritual realm stuff got tiresom and just felt dragged out... oh also! Honor and Odium chapters were amazing... the most vocal moment I had other than Kal almost dying and the spoon incident was moash basically becoming an inquisitor... oh also special mention for the Rysn and Axi interludes
I also liked it a lot, and place it among the top Stormlight books. Really good tempo throughout the book! All storylines interesting and with high stakes. Also sorry to year 17th Shared didn't like it that much.
Ok am I the only one who was reminded of Sigzil claiming to be one of the “unoathed” to the scientists on Canticle
Oh no way
Maybe that just becomes a common term for shardbearer without radiant powers
Could be! But it makes that scene a little more interesting for sure
I was questioning that because i thought lt was a huge spoiler, but everyone ignored it.
I though the ending was a very brave thing to do, and also amazing. It safeguards some of our favorite characters to come up in part 2 in a totally different status quo, new challenges and stuff. I'm excited, even though we have a looooooooong wait ahead lol
Much like he did with Mistborn era 2 referencing the “gods” of era 1, I expect some of our favorite characters to be so revered in the second half of The archives.
I do find it very interesting the reactions to the Jasnah chapter, as I actually think the entire "debate" is sort of endemic to how debate works in the real world. We have found, particularly in recent years, that intellectual debate in a political context *doesn't seem to matter all that much.* The outcome of Jasnah's debate, regardless of the arguments that she could've brought to the table, was decided by how Fen would react, and not by how good her arguments were or weren't.
Taravangian didn't need to come to the table with a good argument. He went their to Own Jasnah, casting doubt on her character and her ability to be an ally. His true victory wasn't Thaylenah-he could've gotten it by other means-it was cracking Jasnah's ego and confidence in her view of the world and more importantly, herself.
Something that I think people are really misunderstanding about the Jasnah scene is not that she doesn't understand utilitarianism, she actually shows complete understanding of utilitarianism. It's a very simple, stupid ideology, what she realizes is that she hasn't thought too deeply about how she has not been living utilitarianism, and THAT is what loses her the argument. Because Taravangian argues that she does not live as she claims, since she is not utilitarian when it comes to her family, and that she has a major hypocrisy. This hypocrisy is what loses her the argument, not her "Debating skills". Remember, Taravangian doesn't win by destroying her philosophy, he wins by destroying her character, because across the series her character has been inconsistent when it comes to her moral philosophy. Jasnah has NOT always sought what is most good for most people - she could've had elohkar assassinated, and that would've been better for far more people than letting him live, but she didn't because she loves her family.
Utilitarianism is very stupid, it's not a good ideology, and Jasnah being forced to think about it more deeply in the context of how she LIVES her philosophy is the problem, not that she doesn't really understand it.
I definitely like your assessment. Taravangien has always been an insecure man wanting to be capable in defiance of what his doctors said at his birth. In defense of jasnah she never acted to increase her power but to protect her family. At worst you can claim she’s a brutal person but not self inflating. I see Jasnahs biggest flaw is ignoring the legitimacy of human emotionality, see her argument about hope. She didn’t understand fenn and was deeply humbled by todium who demonstrated that the human connection she’s never understood is a component of the human animal she needs to understand.
Yeah, Jasnah literally says that she lost because Taravangian was attacking her trustworthiness directly
There are many versions of utilitarianism and not all of them are stupid or simple, but otherwise you are right.
@ that’s one of the things that bothered me about the debate off. The only reason they are in the position they’re in is because todium used a loophole to threaten and cajole Fenn into compliance. Jasnah could just as easily lose but dear lord I wanted to scream at the characters to remember a contract alone with Todium guarantees very little.
Youre correct about the debate, but 1. All ethical philosophies are simple (if they are any good) because they must be argued from simple first principles. Simplicity is actually a virtue because it reduces the number of first principles necessary and therefore makes your argument stronger.
2. It’s not stupid, because none of the others hold up to sufficient scrutiny. Virtue ethics is almost entirely incapable of explaining what you actually should do at any given time. Deontology/ rights based is full of a number of very difficult assertions (like the killing/let die distinction) that make zero sense and is almost inoperable at its logical extreme on the political level.
3. Everyone is a utilitarian in the end (not actually true, but most are), most people justify their ethical positions on the basis of what the outcomes achieved will be, if you are looking at a system of utilitarianism that consistently produces bad outcomes, than utilitarians would reject it. Alternatively you just have done your math wrong.
The true problem with utilitarianism is simply that interpersonal utility comparisons may be impossible.
Anyway I study ethics so I can discuss this all day, and dump a whole paper on your but that’s why I’d say you’re wrong
I read the book in 3 days, took vacations days to do it. I enjoy the journey with the community and the amazing amount of media about Stormlight in general (videos, music, art) and is great. I love the series and continue the journey until the destination. Grettings from Mexico.
Greetings! Thanks for coming. -Eric
Also, the most frustrating part of the Jasnah sequences was the lack of input from Ivory. We have seen how reverent and respectful Ivory is of her, and when she falters and misses chances to rebut Taravangian's attempts to undermine her logic or reveal inconsistencies hearing Ivory's input, either whispering in her ear like, Mistress I had not considered this, should we be worried? or cheering her on and encouraging her in his usual extreme flattery would have been nice.
Even after the "debate" having some more input from him reminding her how incredible she truly is would have been nice. It was definitely nice to see her humanized a bit, but it definitely was weird to miss Ivory as anything more than a passenger on her earring.
So will Kal become Shallan's new stepdad?
Very surprised to hear such negativity from y’all!
It may have been my 2nd fav cosmere book ever, 1st being oathbringer
Yeah, I was so excited that I finished the book, started this instantly and then had to stop watching. Will come back later
For me it's third after Oathbringer and Words of Radiance, but I still thought it was really great. Could've been better for sure, but none of the biggest plot lines fell flat for me. Very good overall.
Nightblood is now my favorite character in the cosmere, and has done so much character growth since her introduction. She's now one of the most powerful beings in the cosmere, if not _the_ outright. And her self-actualization and learning self-control has so many implications.
I love how Nightblood's journey mirrored Szeth's and Kaladins
Excited to see the Syladin converts! Those who do not convert are TRUTHLESS
Everyone just needs to get on the Syladin train at this point. It's definitely the direction he is heading and it's being done very tastefully so I'm happy
What about Chana stormblessed b
@@thesnuggler5941 You are TRUTHLESS
@@thesnuggler5941That'd be crazy
Where do we get chana stormblessed? Curious, I've only seen the ship on this. It is just so he finally gets his Shallan? @@thesnuggler5941
Szeth's spren saying his name is 12124 was one of the most clever instances of foreshadowing ive ever seen.
I know you understood writing this comment, but for those that didn’t catch it 1=A,21=U,24=X so 12124 = AUX
I don’t understand how they said that Adolin’s plot doesn’t focus on spren, action, and stormlight. Maya and the dead eye spren are a major part of his arc. He was constantly fighting battles also. He didn’t just play Magic the Gathering.
More meaning that it feels much less like the high magic battles we have had for OB and RoW. The deadeye spren are key, but the combat made it feel to me a lot more Way of Kings style, which I really liked. -Eric
I was a psycho who got the book Friday afternoon and finished it Sunday morning. Literally all night Saturday spent reading. Interested in your thoughts
Oh my god same dude. I started reading at 4pm Friday, fell asleep 2am Saturday, woke up 10am Saturday, and read until 6am Sunday.
As much as I know recording and editing is a huge effort for our beloved shardcasters, MAN do I love 4 hours of content
I'm glad you enjoyed! Thanks for the kind words. -Eric
Yeah, just finished the book. The implications of this book for the comers are huge, so I can’t wait to hear your guy’s thoughts on this absolute banger.
And now there will be months of Wind and Truth Shardcast that will show me how stupid I am and how much I missed. Can't wait for the episodes analysing the herald/ashyn stuff. Also the magic stuff.
I fully agree that syl is the heir to the storm father. I think this means that kal
in addition to being a wind runner of his new ideal is going to become a bondsmith as heir to dalinar
And umm what happens to Ishtar who is already a Bondsmith….? Let’s think this clearly
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 Ishar's status as Bondsmith is separate from Radiant Oaths. Kaladin is now the Windrunner Herald, while also being a Windrunner Radiant. I meant that I think Kaladin will further his bond with Syl by swearing Bondsmith ideals with her as Stormfather's Heir. His work as a therapist would blend protecting and uniting pretty well I think
I could see Kal getting access to tension as a third surge. Still a "Windrunner" just another radiant that breaks the rules because their spren is different.
@ I don’t think that makes any sense but you’re free to believe whatever you want.
To me it only makes sense that the Herald of the Order would also be a Knight of that order. Nale (as far as we know) is the only Jerald to have taken oaths and become a Knight Radiant as wells
Jezerian is dead and was the Windrunner Herald. So, logically it only makes sense for Kaladin to step into his slot and continue being a Windrunner.
As for Syl….its possible she’s the new stormfather or something totally different. It’s also possible that a new Bondsmith spren will be created. It’s very weird that no one bonded the nightwatcher and that we never got true confirmation that she was the third one.
But do they, together bring back stormlight?
I have to disagree with David's defense of the Honorbearers, because he's falling into the exact same flawed line of reasoning that Szeth's arc is about overcoming. Yes, obviously if Ishar was sane then the Honorbearers obeying him would have been both good and lawful. The mistake that the Honorbearers made in obeying insane Ishar was that they chose to uphold tradition and law *even when* the specific circumstances showed that something was deeply wrong. Saying "oh, but under normal circumstances they'd have been right" completely misses the point, which is that sometimes you have to disobey the law because of complicated circumstances.
Their moral flaw was blind obedience. You can't defend that flaw by saying they were obedient.
When Adolin was thinking his leg injury was temporary until he could get back to Urithiru i immediately knew that he wasn't going to die anymore and that there wouldn't be any way for him to actually heal his leg. Didn't quite see there being no more Stormlight.
27:40 "Honor is dead... but YA BOI AIN'T!"
The book feels like there is an absolutely incredible finale hiding in its bones and a longer editing process would have helped it reach that level. I keep thinking about how many incredible things happened and the extremely good foreshadowing but honestly, the pacing of everything just took the punch out of a lot of reveals, meaning that you keep expecting pay off for things for hundreds of pages and once you finally do see something like the Unoathed or the Contest, you're just burnt out on expectations. Also, you can't just introduce a fourth moon and imply its going to be a whole plot point then just relegate it to the back five. I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THAT MOON.
With Sigzil I liked a lot of that arc, but I agree with David that it didn't quite land with how I was picturing it after Sunlit Man. He was scared of leadership seemingly because of mistakes. I kind of wish Sigzil had made some mistakes. The other issue is we didn't really know many of the dead. I am not sure we knew any of them other than Leyton and he's not a super main character. So the losses of radiants didn't seem as big to us as they likely would've for him. I think him being blinded by hatred of Moash or planning an ambush of Moash would've been the way to go. He plans this ambush and it wasn't just Leyton being caught out. Then the fabrial activates then Leyton and a bunch of squires die as a result and they gain nothing from it and that wrecks his confidence as they pull out. Something where it was a real mistake not just a desperate situation. Especially since he's carrying this trauma 100+ years later! Also the Stormwall is a great title for a radiant I hope we get more of him as he seems cool but we know so little about him as a character. I did like though someone really using the death rattles to choose another path. That was cool! And I was expecting for a while that we'd get a relevant death rattle from an established character dying. And Leyton was about the minimum level of a character for that I expected. I was expecting it from someone bigger, but we did get that and I liked that.
to Jess's point about Mishram, I think Odium was attracted to her for a different reason than purely intent. When Tanavast arrived on Roshar there were 3 Spren of Adonalsium. Wind, Night and perhaps Stone. I have a feeling that Mishram was what happened when Night was unmade in Odium's pool, in which - yeah, Odium as a shard would be intrinsically pulled to a fraction of what it once was.
Again reinforced by Adonalsiumium being the core of Braize, attracting investiture before shards settled there, because the investiture is pulled to what created it.
I feel as if I am the only person that thought that the Jasnah - Taravangian debate was peak aspect of the book
Finale books bring out lots of emotions. I’ve been surprised at the negativity. It was a very good book.
This is my favourite book now. It had heroes journey, ticking clock, subverted expectation chekhovs gun and. All other writing principles. It did have some downers and weeknesses, but overall it matches the hight if mistborn finale.
Totally agree.
2:08 The thing about cleansing Shinovar is that literally everything after he kills the soldier (besides for, you know, the real societal thing of sorting the Shin into groups "bad" and "good") is contingent on Ishar being insane and trying to fulfill his plan of replacing Jezrien with Szeth and bring Radiant Spren into the Physical Realm to be his immortal army (Jesus Christ it's impressive that amounts to 2-3 throwaway lines in the book). Szeth rises up the ranks by listening to the voice, he becomes a Stone Shaman for that reason, the Stone Shamans are evil (and are influencing the Shin?) because Ishar turned them into Fused, and the greatest problem in Shinovar when he returns from being hardened in the east is Ishar. So the cleansing is about Ishar. Of course Szeth isn't going to bring around societal change during the book (maybe in the time jump?), he's more focused on doing the sanctioned quest that Ishar is DM'ng.
I also think the gauntlet of BS boss battles helps forward the theme that "cleansing" can't change the systemic issues that causes most of societies problems. Sure, he can fix the problems caused by BBEG/DM Ishar being literally insane, morally bankrupt, and a minor deity, but the cycle of violence just keeps spinning.
2:38 totally agree, there should have been more foreshadowing for the contact. Personally, I think in the Way of Kings, Sadeas should've been using the Sunmaker as a way of trying to influence Elhokar towards his POV (talking about his various exploits, perhaps giving a very biased biography of him to Elhokar for him to listen to), and one of the examples should have included the Sunmaker taking the seat of a rival King (who flees and sets up his court elsewher., and then convincing all the King's nobles to join his cause because he took the King's seat of power. This sets both the precedent that a King is in charge of his kingdom only until he loses his capital while at war, and that changing the capital doesn't count, since the King obviously did that as well.
Then, in Oathbringer, Gavilar uses this precedent to subjugate one of the highprinces (I control your capital, your kingdom is forfeit, but you could become a highprince instead), which establishes that the Highprince's power flows through Gavilar, despite Gavilar not having to do anything. This also serves to characterize Gavilar as a shrewd politician, and how he's relying on the toxic legacy of the Sunmaker, giving weight to earlier arguments about the direction of the Kingdom. It also makes the loophole harder to dispute, Dalinar was there at the last time it was invoked, this isn't some archaic law that one of Nohadon's rivals put in the books and you could spend the entire length of the recorded Cosmere arguing over whether there's enough legal continuity for it to apply.
But regardless, at the very least the incident that created the precedent should have been cited in that scene where Hoid is reading over the contract. Y'all were talking about how Jasnah barely understands philosophy (I think it's supposed to be a big character flaw that she represses her emotions, and insists that she is perfectly rational), and this is a very similar problem: precedents are set by decisions made regarding incidents in the past. Just take 2 sentences to explain the background of the incident, and what the decision was that set the precedent.
Though, I really liked how it payed off, where the only place where the loophole was relevant was on the shattered plains, the only place where you couldn't dispute the authority of Alethi legal precedent. In Azir, control of the palace legally gave you control (in which case they did what I said to do with the loophole and *cited the incident*), and in Thaylenah the settlement was negotiated. And even there, control was ceded to the Listeners anyways. Like, it was kinda stupid, but it didn't actually matter, Taravangian's forces controlling all 10 Oathgates would've made the alliance untenable regardless of if they controlled the surrounding lands.
I liked this book quite a bit more than the non-Chaos folks. I agree the pacing was pretty good, although there were some clunky transitions to help keep that pace. I definitely liked it better than Rhythm of War, but I agree on first impression it’s not as good as Words of Radiance or Oathbringer. I need more to think about how I evaluate it compared to Way of Kings. I like it better than any non-Stormlight book except for Hero of Ages and maybe Tress.
Sorry I’m always here for Shallan scenes. Her humor can be whatever but love her 😭
Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk about her too much here, there was so much! Reacts 2 will have more and I imagine we will have a Shallan episode. -Eric
It seems like everyone is forgetting that among the heralds is Battar, who may create problems with the Oathpact
Yeah, I was actually thinking about this recently (after recording) that that loop never got closed. I wonder what's up with that. - Eric
Is Battar Dova?
@ check out interlude 6
I don't know how to articulate it yet, but Battar being a traitor to the Heralds and working for Retribution really bothers me. It feels like that's where this is going and I really don't like it.
@@govirdrauka7116 yep
As someone who has not read Sunlit Man yet, I thoroughly enjoyed Sigzil's plot in Wind and Truth. I'm curious to see how my opinion is affected, but in general I think Sig has a really interesting emotional arc carrying him forward, especially considering the abruptness with which he's forced to abandon his life and hop into the Cosmere. Also, for me personally, his renunciation of his oaths was the best moment of the three in the book because it was on a smaller, personal scale (the life of his spren). Dalinar's was still brilliant. Szeth's was good for his character growth, but I think his renunciation just undercuts swearing the Fifth Ideal. I think it would have been just as--if not more--true to Szeth's growth if he said screw the Fourth and Fifth Ideals and renounced sometime before the Ishar confrontation. "I. AM. THE LAW!!" just did not hit for me, although it still was kinda cool. (Sorry that the second half of this comment has swiftly turned to Szeth lol) but I think if Sanderson wanted to have Szeth swear the Fifth Ideal, it would have been more interesting if he kept 12124 and convinced him to become a rogue Skybreaker spren, because that's literally the path he was on anyway. But it does feel like something the story could circle back to since highspren (supposedly) are not subject to same exact repercussions of renouncing oaths. Love the podcast!!
So many death rattles getting resolved was fun
I love that Ian brought his body double
If the stormfather is Honour's version of the original Wind spren, the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's version of the Night spren, could Ba-Ado-Mishram be Odium's version of the Stone spren, about how the Dawnsingers were stoneward-esque shapers of the stone, it makes sense that the modern version of the spren is a spren of the Singers.
im pretty sure the stone spren was the sibling cuz of like urithiru and stuff
David we’re with you on not seeing the Taln fight. Criminal activity from Brandon.
That would be part of the Sanderlanche of book 9.
I'm only 30 mins into this (finished the book), but on the Voidlight archive/Warlight archive but, i didn't even think Stormlight was gone forever, I just expect it to come back somehow, even if it's not till like book 8 or 9 or something
No idea how, but I'm surprised it wasn't even mentioned as a possibility
Edit - re the discussion on Adolins leg, he can 100% get it back as long as he doesn't internalise it - Lift still has full stormlight access thanks to Cultivation, and IIRC stormlight (well, lifelight) works in Urithiru still if he can get there
Edit 2: if Shallan leaves the Rosharan system, cus of the time dilation, we could get adult Shallan kid early on the back half
I think for the wiki, you might be able to split it into “Everstorm” and “Night if sorrows/true desolation” Also what we were calling the “true desolation” might be able to be called “the last return” although i realize that that’s quite similar to the “last desolation”/aharietiam
true Desolation vs True Desolation.
I seriously haven't been this excited since the first reaction to Rhythm of War.
I really, really didn't want baby champion, and KIND OF still got it. I won't be boycotting the rest of Brandon's works like I'd planned, though
I was a little more okay with it because Odium made it clear that it was a blatant attempt at being thematic and I was like yeah that fits his current vessel pretty well
It wasn’t even about winning, he just wanted to be right
Amazing episode. Thank you to the whole 17th shard team! Can't wait for part 2! 😂
Do you think that Zahel as a Returned had some sort of prophecy that he would need to train Adolin in a certain way to prepare him for his fight in this book?
I feel the point of Szeth finding a skybreaker cause in Shinovar was him and his spren thinking the unmade was violating the law. Nale doesn't contradict it directly because he wants him on this journey.
The thing that the Honor bearers did wrong was seeing how fucked up Ishar was and doing nothing about it.
As for the rebellion specifically, in Szeth's position there's next to no other choice. We see how he isn't a leader. It also kills the last vestige of agency he has until basically his death in words of radiance.
SPOILER (Just in case)
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I liked the Renarin and Rlain exploration but felt that making their BUDDING relationship be the factor that caused BAM to chill out after 2000 years of unjust imprisonment felt very unearned. Especially since a Singer-Human relationship was literally the thing that sprang the trap that screwed her over the first time. I was expecting some skepticism on her part honestly.
In general, the 10 day schedule really caused some issues imo. From the rapid therapy to this.
I felt ROBBED at missing Taln. Also, robbed not seeing Szeth bond all the honorblades along the way and using all the surges switching blades in a final fight.
19:29 i could see "Dalinar" coming back as a brief moment of clarity, given in that scene he plants the ideas that led to his future self in the cognitive shadow of his past self. So itd be like Marsh at the end of mistbron era 1, a brief moment of clarity, and but it doesnt stick around
While I really enjoyed the Adolin character growth, I felt there was a bit much of it. It really did emphasize the struggle but I felt a bit like I was skimming parts of those sections. Same with some of the Shallan stuff near the end. I just cared about Odium vs Dalinar and Kaladin
💯
24:30
This first cycle isn't even really one five book series. It's a trilogy with 2 prequels. Think about the plot structure and realize I'm right.
I think of it like a trilogy and then a follow-up duology. The first three naturally go together and Oathbringer feels like solid end to the “first arc.”
RoW & WaT feel distinct from those first three
@@TheCroBrosChanneland if anything I feel rhythm of war and wind and truth are the first and second half of one book. To me rhythm of war is better in hindsight with womd and truth to finish the set ups.
For the record, I realized that Braize and Mraize were named after Rayse three books ago, Will. I even posted about it here in TH-cam comments.
It didn’t have the finale feeling I wanted. Especially with a ten year wait, I think the story deserved a more conclusive ending. If the next book was coming out in 2-3 years I would have less of a problem with how unresolved things feel. It kind of feels like a 1,300 page prologue for the next five books.
ian inadvertently doing a 9+10 = 21 joke 3 hours in is hilarious btw
At the end when Kaladin is talking to Kalak he uses the same line that Syl used on him when he stood over the honor chasm in book 1. "What harm is there in trying one more time if everything is already doomed." Loved how it came full circle.
With Shallan's child I think we will get a lot of those elements you were talking about. And I think it works better to skip ahead to a 10 year old since otherwise you only would get the new baby stuff. Which could be cool to get too but this allows you to actually have a child who can speak and have a personality. You kind of need a time jump to get the elements of Shallan established as a single mother. Shallan reuniting with Adolin and how they figure out parenting together afterwards. You also get a child who was raised in the cognitive realm which will be an interesting contrast to Gavinor who was raised in the spiritual realm. And we will get to see someone as a child experience the physical realm for the first time. And you get to see Pattern as a parent to a child who can interact back with him and have conversations. I think that will work really well in books 6 and 7 and I'm looking forward to it.
I feel sad for Jezerien man.... he just died? After leading the heralds for millenias, intiatimg the peace with the singers at the beginning before the war, and initiating the peace with Nale to form the first oatpact.
Poor Jezerien
Definitely prefer an Endgame “On your left” moment in the Sanderlanche to a quick epilogue tease. I’m thinking climatic battle of book 7 and then we get to know more about how they all hung out during flashbacks in book 8
great, been waiting for this! i managed to blitz through it over last fri/sat and it has been a ton to process. i also love how much PLOT and LORE we got (caps because theres a ton) which is exactly what i enjoy the most, though i would say the volume of it here is worth critiquing. i definitely felt that we maybe didnt get enough time with all of our players individually, as there was just so much brandon was trying to stuff in here to conclude the first half. i do tend to think very holistically about things so im less put off by the problems in the book because it still contributes to the story in some way. i probably would rate this book higher than most (im a venli enjoyer), but i understand why it might not hit the same for most other people.
ishar and tanavast have such similar personalities, it's fascinating just how similar the two "gods" "on our side" are.
This whole mess is almost entirely Cultivation's fault. She should be saddled with most of the blame for the situation Roshar is in. She should be considered at least as much of a cosmere-wide villain as Retribution. I see some comments on here saying she's playing 4D chess and this is all still somehow going according to her master plan...bullsh*t. She tried to play her little game and she messed everything up then ran away.
Jasnah has a secret baby and it's a mistborn Radiant Kwisatz Haderach
Just wanted to mention that I had my laptop off to the side and had to check the notes a number of times - because I have a weird setup that isn’t at a computer, it means I sometimes need to look away from the camera to get information.
Just in case anyone is wondering what I’m doing at certain points where I’m looking offscreen. 😊 - LadyLameness
My body i ready.
I very much enjoyed the book, but I definitely agree with the idea that it maybe needed more time in the oven. That seems to be a really common complaint across reviews I've seen, and it's definitely something I often felt in dialog. Not through the entire book, some parts definitely stand up to Brandon's best, but it's definitely a bit uneven.
I think there's a combination between it being rushed to hit the publishing date, and the newness of his new editor. Granted, it's been a few years and a few books by now, but Moshe was the guy who gave him his break and was with him for over 10 years. The relationship dynamics are going to be different between them, and whoever has taken his role, stepping in to edit one of the publisher's biggest writers. Not that I think Brandon seems like the type to ignore the input of his editor, but just their approach is going to be different not just because they're a different person, but the power dynamics are going to be different.
I guess we'll see if there's some improvement there going forward. I hope tying the book releases to Dragonsteel Nexus doesn't become a regular problem going forward.
Teravangian wasn’t always like this with the hatred of the individual over the bigger plan but Odium has made his hatreds stronger.
To be fair with the contract, dalinar wanted to add specifics when they were planning it but rayse said he didn't care for specifics and would honor the spirit of the contract. Tatavangian absolutely cares about specifics and will use any loophole.
On the debate: Philosophy and 'debate' do exist in the sane way as in our world - for the most part.
Look at people like Richard Dawkins - a somewhat well regarded scientist whose grasp of philosophy and theology is terrible. Likewise, there are experts in politics who make terrible arguments from a philosopher's perspective.
Might it have been more interesting if the debate was a little bit more nuanced? Sure.
But it worked on the level it needed to work. Our POV character got a little humbled - both because she lost sight of her win condition and because she had not given sufficient thought to her personal philosophy. And it set up the idea that the antagonist both wants to recruit her and that she may actually sign up (even if it turns out to be a ruse).
That said, if anyone wants to do a fan-fiction rewrite of the scene that hits the same beats but makes better arguments, it would be fun to read it!
A few thoughts.
1. I am hoping Kal and Syl just remain where they are at. There is no reason to force every relationship into a romantic one. I think of LoTR and the friendships formed there that are so amazing it would be good to have more examples of great friendships and not having to do more. I also could see part of the resolution way down the line would be to have Kal take up Honor which might be odd.
2. I thought with the debate that possibly Brandon was going to have Jasnah be Odium's champion. If she was really hard-core utilitarian and he convinced her about his vision of the greatest good that could be interesting. I don't think it would have happened, but I wonder if that was something he was going for.
3. I wonder with Sigzil if his worry and pain is worse because he basically had to jump off world without any time to talk with anyone or process his loss. Also possibly giving up the Shattered Plains to the Singers might turn into a larger problem down the road and he regrets it more as the consequences are revealed and Sigzil might have some other big failures and he just points back to the shattered plains because he uses that as the example of his failures.
4. I am worried with the doctor giving Adolin the fire weed and saying it is so addictive that we might have an arch with Adolin struggling with addiction. I feel like we already got that arch with Teft and I like having a character in Adolin who has his problems, but they are not major and losing a leg is enough.
1. I’m very surprised Shardcast unanimously agreed that Kaladin and Syl’s relationship had turned romantic in WaT - it was entirely platonic in my reading. Syl is still so childlike in many ways, I don’t think I could continue reading the series if Syladin became a thing.
Syladan shippers falling to the Chana Stormblessed train
The only downside to the new book is that sir Brandon sanderson keeps switching from one POV to another. My man Dalinar sacrificed himself, but because of the constant POV changes, the emotional impact didn't fully hit me until I finished the book and thought to myself, 'Oh no, Dalinar is really gone.' The writing, in my opinion, has also taken a slight dip in quality. I feel like the author doesn’t need a team of editors who agree with every idea he proposes. Some of the concepts in this book had the potential to make it a masterpiece if they had been executed flawlessly. While most were done well, some of the best ideas were left underdeveloped kind a cringe , which was disappointing||
I am glad to see Cheyenne reads books in the same way I do haha. So far 2 stormlight finished in 24 hours of release (though had already read the previews as well)
My wife leaves town right at the time this drops 😅 I'm READY
I planned it just for you! -Eric
I liked the parallel/hypocrisy between Taravangian saving Kharbranth and him throwing in Jansah's face that she protects her family/nation first.
why assume Stormlight is gone forever?
Retribution now produces Warlight
Warlight is a mix of Voidlight and Stormlight
mix Warlight with anti-Voidlight and boom - you get Stormlight
you’re welcome
It's a good job Navani is safely in Urithiru, when she's back in play I could easily imagine her working on that project
The great irony of this book for me is that the two staunch utilitarians show their commitment to their philosophy to be hollow, while dalinar the person who has argued so fiercely against it in the end, stands up does exactly what is required of him, he sacrifices Roshar to save the cosmere, doesn’t get more utilitarian than that.
As someone who suffers from religious OCD, Szeth’s arc was everything. It was perfect and realistic.
I, for one, vote for it to be called Everlight
Only good suggestion I’ve seen for this so far haha
The symbolism of Taln being stabbed by 11 spears has to be recognized. He was metaphorically stabbed by the other 9 heralds, Tanavast, and Honor. 11 betrayals, 11 spears.
Ishar was equal to lord ruler not odium guys. At least it was my take. He did the same thing
Ok my take on the Jasnah/Wit relationship was that it was a piece of setting up a growth arc for Wit in the future - He's been basically omniscient and faultless until the latter half of RoW, and I felt a big part of his arc in WaT was him finally realizing/admitting that he's overly self-reliant and how that was a part of his downfall - could it have been done better?? ya for sure - but I felt like it did at least have some purpose
I will say, I absolutely picked up on the fake Formless thing, mostly just because it was the only place I thought Iyatil could have been. Plus, she did basically directly intervene any time Shallan was actually going to endager Mraize, which kind of solidified it to me
Gold doesn’t show an alternate future but an alternate present. When Vin used it, she saw herself at her present age. Just in a different life.
To me this one was soooooo much better than rhythm of war. So im in love with this book. I was scared we would get rhythm of war part 2 haha.
Is the 10-year gap between "halves" by outside time, or by Roshar time? Because if it's by Roshar time, centuries will pass in the rest of the Cosmere. If it's by Cosmere time, it'll be months at most in Roshar time (although they don't use months).
Many nights of sorrow to come for our boy Adolin...
There was too much in this book. No idea why Brandon bothered to introduce El in RoW because El doesn’t nothing in this book too. Also BAM was interesting but also did nothing in this book. BAM was the McGuffin. We need to find her and then she doesn’t matter to Shalan or Mraize
Lets not lie the best paet was finding out Sigs spren was the spren that gave Truthleas a spoon in a battle to the death lol
Stormfather, being a deadeye...wouldn't he heal like the other desdeyes?
I just find it hilarious the disrespect Rayse shows Tanavast calling him Tanner... And that he eventually starts calling himself Tanner. Lol
The thought that Sigzil won’t be in the second arc of Stormlight I think wrong because of the time dilation. What will feel like a long time to him will be short to people on Roshar. I very much see him going back to Roshar for second arc.
Why do I keep coming back for the video to magically appear? Even when I know it will come on the 14th WHY????!!!!
I actually didn’t have any problems with the first two days in the text. I have heard a lot of critique regarding the beginning of the book and I was never pulled out of the text. It was actually some modern language in the second half of the book that broke the wall for me a handful of times. I was riveted from beginning to end.
As a big fan i never thought people are keen on a non platonic relationship between kal and syl? I always thought they loved each other deeply and that their bond is stronger bcs syl had to sacrifice more, and Kal was a really broken man when syl met him, and she saw hik through everything but i didn't think anything about that
Dragging in the middle? The hell? Did we read the same book?
Did we see any consequences for BAM release good or bad in this book? Were the dead eye spren changed at all? Did the singers change as a result? Did anything happen? I understand it becomes complicated as a result of Todium taking up the shard of honor around or at the same time but still?
The deadeye spren did change. In the end we see Maya has eyes again and their scratched out bits are healing
Deadeyes were healing, yeah. -Eric
@@moncala7787 thanks I was looking for specific examples. I couldn’t remember the exact timeline and what changes to attribute to what.
I agree with Ian on Jasnah. Yes, the arguments were too basic, but the whole setup was amazing.