📌 Huge thanks to our sponsor, Keeps! Here’s the link if you want to check them out! keeps.com/ANDREWROBINSON 🆘 Missed something? Open the description box ABOVE. Still have questions? Hit THANKS☝to highlight your Q + give thanks for the help you receive!☝ Please NO Links, Self Promotion, or Personal Info. Stay on topic and be respectful.
I dislike the term "investment" because, when I invest on something, I expect a ROI. speakers are like cars, furnitures, sports equipment, etc. They are expenses and in a few years, their resale value will be negligible while my investments like stocks, bonds and house will (hopefully) have a higher value than what I paid for years ago.
I treat my speakers as a consumable good. The value is getting years of enjoyment of listening to music and movies. If it doesn’t “hold its value”, it’s fine for me cause I already got what I needed from the speakers, listening enjoyment.
I bought a pair of Watt/Puppy 6's in 1999 as show demos for $10k (half their list price). I traded them in towards another pair of Wilson's in 2023 and got $5500 in trade. For those kinds of luxury brands if you take advantage of their CPO programs and let someone else take the initial depreciation hit you can do pretty well.
Regarding “investment.” It’s an investment if it makes me a profit, it’s a hobby if it costs me money. Most times, hifi is a hobby (hello, Rega Elex-R). Every once in a while it’s an investment (hello, thrift store Paradigm Signature S3 bookshelf speakers)
Thanks! Fired off an email to Fidelity Imports this morning regarding my suggestion yesterday that you review the Acoustic Energy AE520 floor standing speaker and they think it's a great idea too! Now lets make it happen LOL! I really do think that's an intriguing speaker and brand based on other reviews I've read much along the lines of Q-Acoustic offering good bang for the buck. Give it a look and I think you'll be intrigued as I am. Would be very interested in you guys doing a comparison between the AE520 and the QA Concept 50 and R11 Metas. Thanks again for the good work.
I aswell don't see my audio purchases as investments. I've upgraded my equipment several times and haven't looked to sell the old equipment. Once heard a reviewer say he tells his kids certain movies aren't "blub worthy" because he didn't want too many hours on his projecter with regard to its resale value. That to me is insane, but to each their own. Nothing I buy do I consider it's resale value, only how that product satisfys my wants or needs at the time of purchase.
I've owned or have auditioned seven of this list of speakers. The best of the seven I'm very familiar with are the Sasha Daws. However, the best current investment value, considering their affordable price to sonic quality ratio, are none other than Andrew and Kristie KEF R11 meta. I doubted how great they were until I auditioned them at two different dealer locations ( different electronics and rooms). You have to spend more than double of their retail price to exceed their sonic qualities. By the way, the Golden Ear Triton Reference are very good for those with a huge listening room, or large bass traps in all corners. Andrew and Kristi, you continue to excel at providing great content, and valuable knowledge. Thank you.
I'm so glad you shared your personal experiences with us. I agree: the KEF R11 Metas are absolute beasts and very hard to beat. Thanks so much for watching!
The used market for hi fi is out of control with people paying very close to retail for used products. These used products come with scratches ,wear & tare , possible lack of warranty transfer, and possible damage to the boxes and packing materials the speakers came in . I just think people are paying way too much for used hi fi. I’ll just buy new.
On the second hand market in Denmark, you are often able to get at nice pair of BeoLab 5’s from 2008-13 with newly replaced bass units (which tends to be the part that breaks the most) for well under 10.000$
I bought a pair of Bose 301 at closeout in the late 1990's at Circuit City for 99.99. I sold them last year for 200 bucks. I have seen them go for as much as 300.00. Regardless of what people think of Bose, if you can sell anything for the same or double of what you bought it for over 20 years earlier is pretty dam good.
Exactly, just like my wife's horse hobby. Horses are a bottomless financial pit but riding makes her happy so we "invest" in it. Enjoyment-of-life IS the return on investment.
I have been enjoying my ESS AMT 1a's for around 48 years now and think they still sound great. When I audition a speaker, I am looking for something that is going to serve me well for a long haul. The Klipsch Cornwalls I auditioned were a major disappointment. They sounded like someone threw a blanket over them. I sent them back. My original investment of $1400.00 (for four) is still paying dividends in great sound. They still thrill me.
Thanks for the free content and entertainment Andrew and Kristi! And yes, GoldenEar needs to send you a pair of T66 for review ASAP. (How dare you not like the NAD M33! Lol. There, some audiophile anger to confirm my passion and bonafides.)
Oh and Kristi, I’m about to invest in some demo Perlisten S7ts. Oxford says I’m going to “buy (something) whose usefulness will repay the cost.” Not triggered. Except that Andrew didn’t like the M33. 🤣
My dad got the Klipsch Forte 1's back in 86 or 87 for 800 bucks for the pair ($2,245.17 in 2024 dollars). They've been mine for the past 20 years or so. Looks like even the originals have appreciated a bit on the used market since Klipsch revived the line. It is a hobby after all but through all of the gear that I've swapped in and out, I've kept the Fortes and the old KG4's my dad bought in the mid 80's. There's definitely a benefit to buying as much speaker as you can up front because good speakers can last, and sound great, a very, very long time.
In response to her question. When I think of an investment I think of an asset that one hopes will appreciate in value over time; things like real estate, stocks, bonds, art, etc. If you invested in Circuit City, Enron, and Blockbuster, that may not have come to be, but at least aspirationally that was the impetus behind the purchase. TV's, amps, speakers, furniture and other purchased goods, I think, are purchased with the general understanding that they will depreciate in value over their useful lives so, as investments go, they're not the greatest.
Interesting video Andrew and Kristi. I definitely see my hifi purchases as investments. What I buy today will last a long time. So, inherently my purchases carry more than intrinsic value. They carry time value, or extrinsic value.
To me the word investment tends to be about something I buy with the intention of selling it again with a profit. As I don't buy my consumer goods with that intent I don't see those goods as an investment, part of why is because if I viewed such objects as investments they would be bad investments and thus bad purchases. The consumer goods I buy I do because I wanna use them and apart from my home I can honestly say nothing I have bought was ever done so, with me considering possible value if I was to sell said item again. Maybe it is just so since many of more substantial purchases have been the sort of electronics ie. IT gear which tend to be have a very limited re-sale value, so that I have just stopped considering goods having a resale value worth considering.
Brilliant video, thank you very much, Andrew and kristi 😁. On the question you posed - well, Suzy and I are British, so the worst you'll get from us would be a muted "tut", and the words, "I'll put the kettle on" 😂🤷😂 Much love from the UK 😍
Hi Andrew & Christy, I’ve talked with you before; I’m on my fourth set of speakers and using a Denon PMA1600. Currently paired with Klipsch RPM600’s and I have no hifi. What type of speaker for $1500 or less would work with my amp to produce hifi? I don’t really want Focal or Sonus Farver, what could I use. Please help me, I’m going crazy with this hifi stuff and buying and returning speaker after speaker is killing my wife, my sanity and our budget. If you can a provide a detailed breakdown that would be most appreciated because all I get is some air from the notes, but no air from the vocals. I’m so desperate. I’m so grateful in advance! Thank you.
Sorry to hear of your dilemma and frustration. I'm afraid I don't know what "no hifi" means. When it comes to speakers, one's room and how the speakers are setup in them are as important as the speakers themselves. Speakers do a lot of the heavy lifting so to speak, but they're also often battling your room and it's not hard for a room to "win". Have you tried setting your speakers up with the gear you have in another room, just to make sure it's not the gear? Have you experimented with placement of the speakers in the room they're already in? Sometimes pulling them out or pushing them closer to a wall can help or change things. Have you tried angling them in so they're pointed at your listening position versus straight ahead? There are a lot of things I'd try in terms of placement and whatnot before spending even more money only to maybe end up in the same scenario. Your speakers and gear are good, chances are there's an issue with the setup and placement somewhere that you just need to tweak.
Yeah I think Andrew hit on what your issues may be..your room. If you have tried multiple different speakers and none of them are working for you I'm guessing you have a funky shaped room or maybe speakers placed too close to the front or side walls. You may want to try something like the Denon X3700H AVR. I understand it's an AVR but that model is quite good for music listening and has all the EQ functions to correct your problems. I have used MiniDsp products with good results..combined with a Umik-1 & REW software. I've also used their DDRC-24D Dirac Live box with my favorite dac for 2ch stereo with great results in the past. Pairing these products with fairly balanced speakers like Kef's, the Wharfedale Lintons, or something like the Revel M106 (which are on sale) should give "HiFi" results. The AVR would be the easiest to set up..ane with the Revel's and a good but not necessarily expensive sub it would give great results. You can hook your TV to it for a better 2.1ch movie/tv experience. One remote for everything with eArc HDMI. I don't think you will be able to tell the difference between the amplification of the AVR & your current amp. Plus the AVR has preouts if you did want more power later down the road.
Investment is the correct word. I like to try different equipment and only purchase stuff i can get out of easily with minimal loss or cheap enough to keep
I was able to get used pair of KEF LF50 meta for 800€ three months after the release. Retail price now 1299€ (inc. 24% VAT). Sometimes they are sale for 999€. Hardly ever see them at the local used market, and when I do... They are somewhere around 900€. What is weird to me, old LS50s are so over priced at used.
In my opinion buying hifi gear is spending on luxury goods and an investment is buying something that will (or is expected to) generate money, be it through dividends or appreciation or both. There is nothing wrong with spending money on luxury goods and of course you expect to get value for money otherwise you wouldn’t spend the money. But by using the same word ‘investing’ for both situations it becomes very easy to conflate the two and becomes much easier to justify to yourself that purchasing a luxury item is okay. You are making an “investment” after all. I think spending on luxury goods should be a decision that can stand on its own, because you can afford it and because you want the good for the value it brings without having to convince yourself that you are doing anything other than spending money.
The ATC has to be at the top of my list. I could barely find a pair of floor-standing ATCs in the USA, and even if I can find them used, they will never last long.
Again Great content, and always astute, well thought out summations of your reviews/observations. I never thought of speakers as an investment, at least for me. But, owning speakers you love elicits incredible intrinsic value, and this can be priceless.
The ls50 metas are often on sale brand new for 1k USD so buying them used for 1.2k just doesn't make sense imo. In fact, most low to mid tier kef speakers have deep discounts on a regular basis in store. Even fairly new speakers like the ls60 were 2k off during winter sales.
Investments are intended to earn money. Entertainment equipment is intended for Epicurean purposes! It’s ok to call gear an expense. And it’s ok to recover money when you sell. And it’s ok for people building products to make as much money as the market allows. There.
I personally am not comfortable with the term investment when concerning audio gear. The issue for me is when you invest in something you would expect a profit on its resale value. Nonetheless, I do try and purchase gear that if I put up for sale, will have a level a desirability that it will move. In most cases, I do find myself gravitating towards brands with a reputation for holding their value, versus an off brand that nobody has ever heard of.
I get that when one invests in something they expect a profit, but as I learned a little over a year ago as it related to a large chunk of my stock portfolio, what goes up can also come down. For about a year, it would've been better (maybe) had I had my money tied up in something other than a stock. I was able to move some things around and rebound, but I think there is a false narrative happening in the comments whereby a lot of people are claiming that in order for something to be an "investment" it must appreciate in value, and this is not always the case. Stocks and real estate can be just like loudspeakers.
@@andrewrobinsonreviews Thanks for the response, Andrew. True enough. However, I suspect you did not invest in stocks, bonds, or real estate to take a loss. The difference as I see it; is that when I purchase Audio components, I consider it like going to the movies, or gambling. I am paying for the entertainment. I do not expect to gain a profit when I sell it, at best I hope to break even. In 30 years of jockeying and negotiating I never been 100% successful. The best I ever got was 95 cents on the dollar. Now to your point, I do not fully disagree. You certainly can consider your choice of equipment an investment, since when you are talking gear priced in the multi thousands, getting 95% back on what you originally paid is big a help towards your next upgrade. That hurts a heck of lot less than a piece that only resells for 40 cents on the dollar. Love your content and take on this crazy hobby wish you and Kristi all the best.
Due to a lot of people suffering from upgradeitis, I rarely buy something new in terms of gear. Buying smart, secondhand and vintage items, well looked after and/or serviced, allows me to try, mix and match a lot of different things at a low risk, low entry price. Selling off with only negligible losses and an odd, but sometimes substantial profit. Mint condition Technics SL-1210 Mk2, late 70s recapped KEF Concerto, mid 90s Sugden Class A integrated, all for $300-500 per item. Occassionally I'll buy something special and more expensive such as (Ebony)Yamaha NS-1000s but always demo them thoroughly and take into account possible future defects in my purchasing decision.
Wow! People just took the word investment to a whole new level. I have value in my vintage and newer high end equipment. True I invested in some equipment years ago because I love good sounding music and spend good money to make sure that I would have exactly what I enjoy. I Still enjoy it now and will continue to enjoy it. Thanks, Andrew
I have had a pair of Klipsch Forte IVs since two years ago and I didn’t buy them because of their value over time but because of their performance which I have loved since they one. Very often they are looked above the shoulder by many audiophiles but they sound as good as well regarded hi end speakers of way above the price of the Forte IVs.
Personally I wouldn't use the term "investment" in relation to most hi-fi, the possible exception being ultra rare limited production pieces that might actually appreciate in value over time. That said, I can understand the term being used in relation to the qualities of an item, as-in maybe purchasing amplifier A will give a better return in terms of reliability or system compatibility or somesuch versus amplifier B. For me, the "investment" in hi-fi is mostly in the experience it can deliver. Sure, if brand X has a higher second-nhand value than brand Y, then that might be a factor in a purchasing decision, but I tend to hold on toi hi-fi components for years at a time, after which the residual values are relatively low.
Most folks I know consider the word "investment" to be singularly focused on funds used or allocated with the expectation of generating a profit in return. I understand that mindset but the idea of considering some things as investments due to return savings or even tax deduction value are not the common interpretation of the word. Just my deduction from my own experiences so YMMV.
Investing money in something doesn't guarantee you get your money back, nor more than you invested. People invest money in all sorts of things, it doesn't make it all profitable. What a silly idea.
@@trajan350investments (are meant to) appreciate. Liabilities are what you owe others. Expenses are operation costs. These are toys with some residual value if expensive enough to begin with.
Happy Super Bowl Sunday Andrew and Kristi. I think part of what helps a speaker better retain value is the "bang for the buck" it offers. I have a pair of Concept 50's that I love and I think fit that bill. Along those lines I would love to see you guys review some Acoustic Energy speakers from their 500 series line featuring all carbon fiber drivers including the tweeters. More specifically either the floor standing AE509 or AE520 model would be an interesting comparison falling somewhere in between your two favs the Concept 50's and KEF R11 Metas price wise. Based on other reviews I think the AE 500 series floor standers might offer an appealing sound to the two of you. Thanks again for the great work.
Regarding the word “investment” I’ll refer back to things you’ve said in the past - hifi is entertainment. It’s ultimately a luxury purchase & it’s silly to think of a depreciating asset as an investment. Granted, there are cars, watches, etc. that end up appreciating, and thus can reasonably be deemed an investment, but they tend to be extravagantly expensive, high end representatives of their class. Hopefully hifi brings music into our lives & money spent translates to value.
Personally for me the term “investment” is a term used to get to one step closer to listening nirvana. Like of course it’s using resources and audio ware will depreciate over time. But as investing the time and resource, does it make us feel or hearing like we are getting better audio quality? If the audio ware does give better quality, then it’s a good investment. If it gives lesser of a performance, then basically the 2nd hand sales comes in and see whether how much of a loss. It’s up to somebody’s preference on what the word investment means which no doubt of course in a more logical term is “to get profit” but this is my take when figuratively thinking about audio in mind.
This was a great discussion. I see where you’re going with the word “investment”. I think people are getting tripped up with it being synonymous with investing in property or stocks. For me investment in HiFi is what I get back from it emotionally. I have spent a lot of money on gear, building a room and of course all the vinyl and CD’s. I will never get that money back no matter how carefully I choose gear. That’s not the point. I’m “investing” in my enjoyment and satisfaction. Money be damned.
WHAT FUN !! Thanks! I was inspired to look at "Long Term Investment" so I pulled out my receipt from 1977 on my Klipsch heresy's. I paid $ 214 each at the time. Here 47 years later they seem to retail at aprox. $1,600 so that gives me a 647% of change or about 14% annual return. I next looked at my laScalas which I purchased a year later in 1978. I paid $570 each for them and currently they sell for $6,599 which I think runs to a 1,057 per cent of change over those 46 years. That would realize an annual gain of 22.9 %. Just for chuckles I checked the Standard and Poors 500 average over the last 50 years and it sits at 11.13% Now for all the boo birds out there who are taking this thing way to seriously, yes of course I realize that used prices would be different, but what fun it that? and they Still have a huge percentage increase in value!
Doing some real quick math, your Heresy's purchased in 1977 for $214 each would be the equivalent of $1,122/ea today according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics' inflation calculator. So in today's dollar (because we're selling them today), you "spent" the equivalent of $2244 for your speakers. Their average resale price hovers around $1200 (remember these are Heresy Is not new, IVs). Technically speaking, and adjusting for inflation, they have still suffered a loss. However, to you, the original owner, they have appreciated because you have been able to enjoy them for the pre-inflation price. This also illustrates what's behind a large portion of the wealth gap that exists between older generations and new ones, and why attitudes towards money often differ so greatly.
OMG THERE GOES MY ENTIRE RETIREMENT PLAN !!! Curse you red baron! ( not your Andrew ) And I thought all those hundreds of Klipsch speakers I bought in the 70's would fund my retirement, drat! Great fun nun the less, I am amazed that you responded to my message and similarly amazed at how many of your followers you answer. Kudos to you and your bride my friend. Best to your both, and all you audiophile folks out there. g2
Interesting analysis. Some are evaluated at an overall depreciation and others at an annual percentage. Better to maintain the same depreciation rate. Suggest overall depreciation for all. If not you’re comparing apples to oranges.
I did my best to be fair, but I understand your point. Sometimes, I set out to research items like these for a video and fall down rabbit holes. I hope that for some of the older speakers on this list, you understood or accepted my reasoning about how I ended up talking about them versus another "new" speaker. Case in point, the Beolab 5, I set out to do an evaluation of the Beolab 90, which is new, but couldn't pull a large enough sample size, so I worked my way down to a model that would produce those results, which is why I stated the depreciation using an annual average.
THANKS ANDREW,KRISTI…🤗 I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CONSCIOUS ABOUT THIS AS AN INVESTMENT,TRYING TO GET THE BEST QUALITY FOR THE BEST PRICE,HOPING IT WILL LAST LONGER AND EVERY DAY I CAN ENJOY IT FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE 😅…as for the hair loss, I am 👌,but I will share this with two of my sons 🤔💚💚💚
Hey Andrew & Kristi you think you’ll do a video on the best looking speakers? Looking for a hifi speaker that’ll blend with my white hardwood floors farm house chic style?
I do think the animosity towards the word investment is funny. When a business buys expensive equipment, its kept on the books and written off over a period of time. Not sure what tax accountants would call it in the US, but where I live this would be called literally "investment goods". Deprecation is assumed. And I don't see how this perspective is unreasonable when it comes to valuables and stuff a household acquires.
From my perspective, it has a lot to do with validation. Whether a reaction is positive or negative often depends on whether that person's opinion was validated or not. Reactions vary accordingly.
When a business buys an item it does so with anticipation of increasing its income. When I buy gear it is uncommon for the gear to appreciate and thus I anticipate a loss. Cars for the vast majority of us rust into nothingness. That's not to say a car salesman won't dupe you by calling your purchase an investment.
@@martytoo When a business buys a car or a computer, it also anticipates the decline in value over time. The computer might be a tool to generate income, but "investment goods" can be reverted into liquid funds when a business is dissolved or simply sells its machines. Similar to how a private person can sell a house or stuff on eBay.
@@martytoobut you are buying with expectation that it increases your satisfaction/happiness in some way. Investment doesn’t just have to mean financial return.
Wouldn't mind some watt puppies. Still to expensive for me though. Well stated on why things cost so much. Built a pair of bookshelf speakers before and the parts cost was well over $700 just on crossover parts. Everything combined was over 2k. Good components cost money.
Speakers are without a doubt a liability, but I definitely consider resale value. I went with Wilson Sabrina X bc you can sell them through a dealer with a warranty and Wilson will replace, or in some cases, allow you to update the drivers. Another brand I like is transparent cables - theiir upgrade program is great. Gear holding their value makes it easier if you’re planning on upgrading later on, but going the preowned route, sometimes the ones that depreciate quickly have less diminishing returns after purchase. Definitely not a lesson to learn the hard way.
Ive re-sold some gear over the years. (Usually at a loss). But lots of my used gear has been passed on to friends and family. Still being used today. So the financial loss is ok w me if the gear is still in use by loved ones
I'd add the Legacy Aeris to this list (possibly)? They seem to hold their value whereas I've seen the Valor take a big dip from their new price. Investment...speakers... difficult but not impossible - but amps....now you're talking about investment!
Can i justify the purchase? Have i saved enough? Those are my main priorities when considering a want over a need. Resale is great, but its not my concern with audio. Then again, if i were buying really high end it would be more of a consideration. Great stuff as always! 🍻
Honestly, you can get a ls50 mk1 for 600 or less is absurd for such a well made, goregous fesign and great sounding speakers for that trumps everything for people who want some amazing kit at a budget price.
I think it depends on YOUR definition of an “investment”; what are you investing into? A product that you’ll have about as long as a car, before you trade in for a new one? Or, “investment” in the sense of investing into your sound system with products that you intend to keep until they give out, become obsolete, or you die?
I put it this way on the last video and I’m gonna slightly expand one it: anything in the entertainment hobby, whether that’s speakers, gaming stuff, sports cars, espresso machines. Whatever it is, so long it entertains you and makes you happy is already worth it. It doesn’t matter if you bought a Civic or F12 Berlinetta. So long they make you happy, that’s all that matters. People really like counting money in other peoples pockets, always have and always will. We all just need to focus on what makes us smile, makes us tingle inside and our hearts pumping. For some it’s Lambo, for some it’s Ferrari. For some it’s a Klipsch the 7s, and for some it’s the B&W 800 Signature. Whatever the price is, if it does its job which to make your smile wider than the distance between your ears, it’s worth the “investment”. I don’t care my speakers are worth a quarter couple years later compared to when I bought them. They make me smile day and day, every time I listen to music, or watch tv, it makes me happy. That’s all that matters to me and should ever matter to anyone spending money on anything. Great conversation and video! I really want Wilson to send you some speakers! Oh and one more thing: speakers are not a financial investment. It’s an “investment in happiness. Whether they go up in monetary value or down, the investment is into your hearts happiness. Just some food for thought.
Really appreciate your honesty and outlook on the topic! Obviously, this video (in my opinion) is more about the end conversation and less about the list, which I think you picked up on and responded to. Love it!
Hi Chris. thinking about pulling the trigger on the Beolab 28:s. Saw your review and listened to them and was very much impressed! Anything further you could tell me about them to help my decision? Thanks, love the channel!
Investment... Interesting presentation... Sometimes I ask myself, if I were a multimillionaire, would I pay that much for whatever. Our JBL C38's with D131 woofers and 075 tweeters were a big deal in 1955. Today the tweeters are worth a lot more than the speakers were when new. Dad chose wisely. I won't part with them, but a lot of the value is sentimental. Paul H. in Huntington Beach, CA
A lot of audiophiles will trade speakers for new ones so while they are not "investments", second hand value is important. If the depreciation is savage then you're paying for that if you want to replace it. Maybe it would be better to call the 2 videos the "least and worst depreciating speakers" but I think anyone who watches the video can get the point.
Useful advice when you are about to push the boat out financially. Certain products will hold enough value to allow you to gamble again in the future if you wish. Certain others could leave you broke.
All in, for my 2 channel listening pleasure, I've spent about 3200 dollars, including my NAS, because I never stream from internet sources. I am extremely invested in the gear I have and probably won't swap any of it out unless something breaks at this point.
I bought a pair of Yamaha NS-10Ms for $250 in 1979 and I sold them about a year ago for approximately twice that amount. Of course, that ignores the time value of money/inflation since 1979. And the NS-10s found a niche application so they don’t play by the normal rules
Maybe it's due to different people interpretation of the word investment. Investment to some people mean that certain assets like property and stock can appreciate in value over time, but will not consider things like car and HiFi equipment as investment as they're expenses and depreciate in value over time.
The investment I get out of a speaker is how good it looks and the sound it makes. I buy them to enjoy my music or movies , relax and to help take some stress of life away. If I invest money I buy shares which I have made some money over the years.
I had finally had the privilege to demo Wilsons @ a retailer recently, still haunted by my experience it was that good! Anyways, the owner had informed me they hold their value so well because the improvements as new models release are fairly marginal. People know what to expect and what theyre getting with Wilson. A pair of watt puppy's will keep right up with a new pair of Sasha's... so I'm told.
The original B&W Nautilus series must be among the best… and i do not believe it is close. 805n’s in good condition sell for their retail price ($2,000) 25 yrs ago
AR-3a’s sell now for multiples of their original cost (in the 1960’s and 1970’s). As do other several other Acoustic Research speakers (AR-3’s, LST’s, even the budget AR-4’s)
Do they sell for multiples their original cost adjusted for inflation, or did you already factor that in and find that they still sell for a pretty penny? Either way, it's impressive.
I have no problem with how Andrew and Kristie (sp?) use "investment." Value can be more than just a monetary return. But the depreciation rate on a piece of equipment is also a pretty decent signal from the market of overall quality and value.
Good to see Maggie's on the list. LRSs are retaining value too. I just missed some 1.7s for much less than the price listed here. They weren't listed for 48 hours. Maggie owners also write about their ability to repair speakers which I believe helps. However, I think 3.7 aren't doing as well in terms of retaining value but fewer can fit a 3.7 and shipping is expensive. KEF LS50s were the most common on the list but they hit a homerun to the ears of many in the hobby. Further shipping LS50s are the easiest on the list. Some real icons, rarities and absolute sweet spots in their respective lines for these speakers. Big speakers often suffer from shipping expenses dragging values down but this list has some combination of the qualities listed. IMO the the savings of going used on the Sony isn't worth the risk of meeting a stranger or getting an abused pair. However saving 19% on a KEF is saving money and you're likely buying from an enthusiast. As for investment, it is a factor especially if you are willing to buy used. I am willing to be a model behind if the depreciation justifies the trade off of not having the latest improvements. On another but related note, I also like the idea of buying a procesor rather than an integrated for a home theater and buying good amps. As formats change the processor may need to be upgraded but high quality amps stay high quality. AVR and processor values drop like rocks when they don't have the latest features.
An Investment is presumed to provide a "return" at some point in the future, usually a monetary return. Enjoying audio is an inherently hedonistic activity, but one that can be done without. It's a sunk cost made to fulfill a hedonistic desire vs a physical or physiological need. It either fills the desire or not. It's like buying a sports coupe. It fulfills a desire rather than need so it's a sunk cost and not an investment (broadly speaking, I'm not talking Ferrari 250 GTO here)
I've bought speakers partly because I thought I could flip them for a profit including a Paradigm Ultracube 10 sub, a pair of Castle Knights and a Martin Logan Dynamo 500 sub, all in great condition and all of them together cost me $360. Retail price was $2400
Wouldn't a reverse lineup be more usable for regular folks? eg. a used revel ultima salon which depreciated a ton but sounds amazing? that kinda thing?
I think investment is like the word theory. There is a colloquial meaning and there is the strict definition. The colloquial meaning of theory is like a hypothesis. In science theory is the highest level of evidence that you’ll get. An investment colloquially can mean anything you put your money into and how that related to what you get back which could be money but could also be enjoyment, happiness etc. By the strictest definition of investment, 99.9% of the time audio equipment is just an expense because you will almost always lose money. It depends on which definition you're referring to.
FERUARY: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to invest in Hi-Fi equipment. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and October. Apologies to Mark Twain.
The highest I’ve seen was the Rogers LS3/5a loudspeaker from the late 70’s. I think they were around $500 based on the conversion rate when they were new and have been selling used (mostly to the Asian market) for over $10000.
Vintage finds can be a whole other animal as collectibility and trends come into play, which is why I didn't really focus much on older models if I could help it.
There is but one area related to music where Mrs KR's observation is correct, i think. That is musical instruments. A Steinway piano, for example, being just one because they go up in price annually, sit in one place, almost, have limited supply and mature in sound with age. So providing that you've cared for one, you can get more than you paid for it after a few years ownership. There obvious others like violins, violins, double bass, wind instruments, electric guitars..... it just depends how long you are willing to wait. I bought a Jaydee bass guitar which used ONLY in studios for recording hence, it was in immaculate condition. It costs £700 back in about 1985, i sold it for £1500 (i stress that it didn't have even hair marks on it and it was sold to a member of a very well known rock band who wanted that sound).
As I and most of my family have made our ROI pay our way (I retired at 52), investment is a life style. My A/V system keeps me out of movie theaters and concert halls and pricing those tickets out adds up. I was very pleased to see the Golden Ear, as the 5.3.4 McIntosh separates system in the family home is based around the Reference and is Golden Ear throughout,
That was truly enlightening! Here is what I want to ask??? In the past 2 years, I have bought and sold numerous pairs of speakers and continued to find myself with the same thought. If I could buy these speakers that retailed for $1890 each and get them for $950 each, did that company still make their profit margin??? And if so, does that truly mean, for the most part, are $1890 a piece tower speakers only worth $500 or less? I ask this because I am wondering, what is transpiring that makes a speaker have the price tags we see within 1 company's line of speakers? All companies are using the "trickle down" wording when promoting "budget" lines of speakers, so what exactly does that mean and are the consumers getting screwed, whether you pay $500 for a pair or $5000 for a pair? Thank you for your thoughts!
Where do you look for these higher end speakers on the used market? I see good klipsch speakers from time to time on sites like FB marketplace, but never Wilsons or working Magnepans. Also wondering how you used speaker sources may have impacted your results.
Brilliant list Andrew. Looks like the Fortes are getting killer reviews everywhere. Any chance you'll be reviewing Rogers speakers anytime? Now theyre back in business? I know you've spoken about supply issue for other speakers. ~peace
Modern society associates the word "invest" only with money. When you invest time & money into something, sometimes the return is simply pleasure & enjoyment.
You might investigate audio manufacturers who design and engineer their products with the long term in mind by making them upgradable which saves $$$$ in depreciation and the planet. A great example is the legendary Linn LP12 where the 1974 T/T can be fully upgraded to what you can afford, many of their electronics (for example after 9 years they just introduced an advanced new power supply that can be retrofitted) and active speakers.
If you can identify “future classics” over a long enough time horizon you will most likely get your money back. For example I bought an original NAD 3020, Infinity speakers and (from an allied field) Gibson SG in the ‘70s. I sold them all for more than I paid in 2020 in a big cleanout. Would I have made more money investing in the stockmarket? Absolutely! But considering the joy those products brought me over decades, I am more than happy with the returns. I would be interested in an episode on future classics. What new products today have the potential to stand the test of time?
It would be amazing if you could ever get your hands on a pair of Duevel speakers, doesn't really matter which ones. I had the Duevel "Planets" and their omnidirectional sound was phenomenal, though probably not for everyone. I don't know how well known they are in the US though, I think they are a comparatively small German brand.
Even though my hifi needs are met at the time, I really enjoy your takes all the way from Germany. Could well be that Duevel is too niche for your channel and they do make some amazing speakers (in all price ranges) @@andrewrobinsonreviews
📌 Huge thanks to our sponsor, Keeps! Here’s the link if you want to check them out! keeps.com/ANDREWROBINSON
🆘 Missed something? Open the description box ABOVE. Still have questions? Hit THANKS☝to highlight your Q + give thanks for the help you receive!☝ Please NO Links, Self Promotion, or Personal Info. Stay on topic and be respectful.
I had a/b the Kef LS50 meta (but it's too beaming badly). I love the GoldenEar BRX so much that I added a 3rd one as the center channel.
I dislike the term "investment" because, when I invest on something, I expect a ROI. speakers are like cars, furnitures, sports equipment, etc. They are expenses and in a few years, their resale value will be negligible while my investments like stocks, bonds and house will (hopefully) have a higher value than what I paid for years ago.
Yes, but you invested in stock so that you can have money to buy cars, furniture, and speakers ...
I treat my speakers as a consumable good. The value is getting years of enjoyment of listening to music and movies. If it doesn’t “hold its value”, it’s fine for me cause I already got what I needed from the speakers, listening enjoyment.
That's fair.
I bought a pair of Watt/Puppy 6's in 1999 as show demos for $10k (half their list price). I traded them in towards another pair of Wilson's in 2023 and got $5500 in trade. For those kinds of luxury brands if you take advantage of their CPO programs and let someone else take the initial depreciation hit you can do pretty well.
Regarding “investment.” It’s an investment if it makes me a profit, it’s a hobby if it costs me money. Most times, hifi is a hobby (hello, Rega Elex-R). Every once in a while it’s an investment (hello, thrift store Paradigm Signature S3 bookshelf speakers)
The Signature S3s are great!
Q Acoustics Concept 50 owner here. I am not sure I need any better for my aging ears and small listening space. I love them.
Thanks! Fired off an email to Fidelity Imports this morning regarding my suggestion yesterday that you review the Acoustic Energy AE520 floor standing speaker and they think it's a great idea too! Now lets make it happen LOL! I really do think that's an intriguing speaker and brand based on other reviews I've read much along the lines of Q-Acoustic offering good bang for the buck. Give it a look and I think you'll be intrigued as I am. Would be very interested in you guys doing a comparison between the AE520 and the QA Concept 50 and R11 Metas. Thanks again for the good work.
Thank you!
I aswell don't see my audio purchases as investments. I've upgraded my equipment several times and haven't looked to sell the old equipment. Once heard a reviewer say he tells his kids certain movies aren't "blub worthy" because he didn't want too many hours on his projecter with regard to its resale value. That to me is insane, but to each their own. Nothing I buy do I consider it's resale value, only how that product satisfys my wants or needs at the time of purchase.
I've owned or have auditioned seven of this list of speakers. The best of the seven I'm very familiar with are the Sasha Daws. However, the best current investment value, considering their affordable price to sonic quality ratio, are none other than Andrew and Kristie KEF R11 meta. I doubted how great they were until I auditioned them at two different dealer locations ( different electronics and rooms). You have to spend more than double of their retail price to exceed their sonic qualities.
By the way, the Golden Ear Triton Reference are very good for those with a huge listening room, or large bass traps in all corners. Andrew and Kristi, you continue to excel at providing great content, and valuable knowledge. Thank you.
I'm so glad you shared your personal experiences with us. I agree: the KEF R11 Metas are absolute beasts and very hard to beat. Thanks so much for watching!
The used market for hi fi is out of control with people paying very close to retail for used products. These used products come with scratches ,wear & tare , possible lack of warranty transfer, and possible damage to the boxes and packing materials the speakers came in . I just think people are paying way too much for used hi fi. I’ll just buy new.
Not if you buy locally and with a reputable enough brand name.
On the second hand market in Denmark, you are often able to get at nice pair of BeoLab 5’s from 2008-13 with newly replaced bass units (which tends to be the part that breaks the most) for well under 10.000$
I bought a pair of Bose 301 at closeout in the late 1990's at Circuit City for 99.99. I sold them last year for 200 bucks. I have seen them go for as much as 300.00. Regardless of what people think of Bose, if you can sell anything for the same or double of what you bought it for over 20 years earlier is pretty dam good.
The return on investment is non monetary but the enjoyment of the sound system.
Exactly, just like my wife's horse hobby. Horses are a bottomless financial pit but riding makes her happy so we "invest" in it. Enjoyment-of-life IS the return on investment.
Dynaudio Special 40s tend to do pretty well in the UK.
I have been enjoying my ESS AMT 1a's for around 48 years now and think they still sound great. When I audition a speaker, I am looking for something that is going to serve me well for a long haul. The Klipsch Cornwalls I auditioned were a major disappointment. They sounded like someone threw a blanket over them. I sent them back. My original investment of $1400.00 (for four) is still paying dividends in great sound. They still thrill me.
Nice to see Wilson Audio represented three times on the list. I own the Sophia 3 and love them!
Always down for a good list. Happy sunday!
Hopefully you enjoy this video as well!
Thanks for the free content and entertainment Andrew and Kristi! And yes, GoldenEar needs to send you a pair of T66 for review ASAP. (How dare you not like the NAD M33! Lol. There, some audiophile anger to confirm my passion and bonafides.)
hahah. Love this comment!
Oh and Kristi, I’m about to invest in some demo Perlisten S7ts. Oxford says I’m going to “buy (something) whose usefulness will repay the cost.” Not triggered. Except that Andrew didn’t like the M33. 🤣
My dad got the Klipsch Forte 1's back in 86 or 87 for 800 bucks for the pair ($2,245.17 in 2024 dollars). They've been mine for the past 20 years or so. Looks like even the originals have appreciated a bit on the used market since Klipsch revived the line. It is a hobby after all but through all of the gear that I've swapped in and out, I've kept the Fortes and the old KG4's my dad bought in the mid 80's. There's definitely a benefit to buying as much speaker as you can up front because good speakers can last, and sound great, a very, very long time.
In response to her question. When I think of an investment I think of an asset that one hopes will appreciate in value over time; things like real estate, stocks, bonds, art, etc. If you invested in Circuit City, Enron, and Blockbuster, that may not have come to be, but at least aspirationally that was the impetus behind the purchase. TV's, amps, speakers, furniture and other purchased goods, I think, are purchased with the general understanding that they will depreciate in value over their useful lives so, as investments go, they're not the greatest.
Interesting video Andrew and Kristi. I definitely see my hifi purchases as investments. What I buy today will last a long time. So, inherently my purchases carry more than intrinsic value. They carry time value, or extrinsic value.
I thank you for your comment. I think you get what it is Kristi and I continue to try and express to the community at large.
To me the word investment tends to be about something I buy with the intention of selling it again with a profit. As I don't buy my consumer goods with that intent I don't see those goods as an investment, part of why is because if I viewed such objects as investments they would be bad investments and thus bad purchases.
The consumer goods I buy I do because I wanna use them and apart from my home I can honestly say nothing I have bought was ever done so, with me considering possible value if I was to sell said item again. Maybe it is just so since many of more substantial purchases have been the sort of electronics ie. IT gear which tend to be have a very limited re-sale value, so that I have just stopped considering goods having a resale value worth considering.
Brilliant video, thank you very much, Andrew and kristi 😁.
On the question you posed - well, Suzy and I are British, so the worst you'll get from us would be a muted "tut", and the words, "I'll put the kettle on" 😂🤷😂
Much love from the UK 😍
Hi Andrew & Christy, I’ve talked with you before; I’m on my fourth set of speakers and using a Denon PMA1600. Currently paired with Klipsch RPM600’s and I have no hifi. What type of speaker for $1500 or less would work with my amp to produce hifi? I don’t really want Focal or Sonus Farver, what could I use. Please help me, I’m going crazy with this hifi stuff and buying and returning speaker after speaker is killing my wife, my sanity and our budget. If you can a provide a detailed breakdown that would be most appreciated because all I get is some air from the notes, but no air from the vocals. I’m so desperate. I’m so grateful in advance! Thank you.
Sorry to hear of your dilemma and frustration. I'm afraid I don't know what "no hifi" means. When it comes to speakers, one's room and how the speakers are setup in them are as important as the speakers themselves. Speakers do a lot of the heavy lifting so to speak, but they're also often battling your room and it's not hard for a room to "win". Have you tried setting your speakers up with the gear you have in another room, just to make sure it's not the gear? Have you experimented with placement of the speakers in the room they're already in? Sometimes pulling them out or pushing them closer to a wall can help or change things. Have you tried angling them in so they're pointed at your listening position versus straight ahead? There are a lot of things I'd try in terms of placement and whatnot before spending even more money only to maybe end up in the same scenario. Your speakers and gear are good, chances are there's an issue with the setup and placement somewhere that you just need to tweak.
Yeah I think Andrew hit on what your issues may be..your room. If you have tried multiple different speakers and none of them are working for you I'm guessing you have a funky shaped room or maybe speakers placed too close to the front or side walls. You may want to try something like the Denon X3700H AVR. I understand it's an AVR but that model is quite good for music listening and has all the EQ functions to correct your problems. I have used MiniDsp products with good results..combined with a Umik-1 & REW software. I've also used their DDRC-24D Dirac Live box with my favorite dac for 2ch stereo with great results in the past. Pairing these products with fairly balanced speakers like Kef's, the Wharfedale Lintons, or something like the Revel M106 (which are on sale) should give "HiFi" results. The AVR would be the easiest to set up..ane with the Revel's and a good but not necessarily expensive sub it would give great results. You can hook your TV to it for a better 2.1ch movie/tv experience. One remote for everything with eArc HDMI. I don't think you will be able to tell the difference between the amplification of the AVR & your current amp. Plus the AVR has preouts if you did want more power later down the road.
Last year I purchased the Q-Acoustics concept 50’s And absolutely love them. Keeping these forever.
Such a great speaker! So happy to hear that you are enjoying yours.
They're soooooo good.
Investment is the correct word. I like to try different equipment and only purchase stuff i can get out of easily with minimal loss or cheap enough to keep
I was able to get used pair of KEF LF50 meta for 800€ three months after the release. Retail price now 1299€ (inc. 24% VAT). Sometimes they are sale for 999€. Hardly ever see them at the local used market, and when I do... They are somewhere around 900€. What is weird to me, old LS50s are so over priced at used.
In my opinion buying hifi gear is spending on luxury goods and an investment is buying something that will (or is expected to) generate money, be it through dividends or appreciation or both. There is nothing wrong with spending money on luxury goods and of course you expect to get value for money otherwise you wouldn’t spend the money. But by using the same word ‘investing’ for both situations it becomes very easy to conflate the two and becomes much easier to justify to yourself that purchasing a luxury item is okay. You are making an “investment” after all.
I think spending on luxury goods should be a decision that can stand on its own, because you can afford it and because you want the good for the value it brings without having to convince yourself that you are doing anything other than spending money.
The ATC has to be at the top of my list. I could barely find a pair of floor-standing ATCs in the USA, and even if I can find them used, they will never last long.
Again Great content, and always astute, well thought out summations of your reviews/observations. I never thought of speakers as an investment, at least for me. But, owning speakers you love elicits incredible intrinsic value, and this can be priceless.
The ls50 metas are often on sale brand new for 1k USD so buying them used for 1.2k just doesn't make sense imo. In fact, most low to mid tier kef speakers have deep discounts on a regular basis in store. Even fairly new speakers like the ls60 were 2k off during winter sales.
Investments are intended to earn money.
Entertainment equipment is intended for Epicurean purposes!
It’s ok to call gear an expense. And it’s ok to recover money when you sell.
And it’s ok for people building products to make as much money as the market allows.
There.
I personally am not comfortable with the term investment when concerning audio gear. The issue for me is when you invest in something you would expect a profit on its resale value. Nonetheless, I do try and purchase gear that if I put up for sale, will have a level a desirability that it will move. In most cases, I do find myself gravitating towards brands with a reputation for holding their value, versus an off brand that nobody has ever heard of.
I get that when one invests in something they expect a profit, but as I learned a little over a year ago as it related to a large chunk of my stock portfolio, what goes up can also come down. For about a year, it would've been better (maybe) had I had my money tied up in something other than a stock. I was able to move some things around and rebound, but I think there is a false narrative happening in the comments whereby a lot of people are claiming that in order for something to be an "investment" it must appreciate in value, and this is not always the case. Stocks and real estate can be just like loudspeakers.
@@andrewrobinsonreviews Thanks for the response, Andrew. True enough. However, I suspect you did not invest in stocks, bonds, or real estate to take a loss. The difference as I see it; is that when I purchase Audio components, I consider it like going to the movies, or gambling. I am paying for the entertainment. I do not expect to gain a profit when I sell it, at best I hope to break even. In 30 years of jockeying and negotiating I never been 100% successful. The best I ever got was 95 cents on the dollar. Now to your point, I do not fully disagree. You certainly can consider your choice of equipment an investment, since when you are talking gear priced in the multi thousands, getting 95% back on what you originally paid is big a help towards your next upgrade. That hurts a heck of lot less than a piece that only resells for 40 cents on the dollar. Love your content and take on this crazy hobby wish you and Kristi all the best.
Due to a lot of people suffering from upgradeitis, I rarely buy something new in terms of gear. Buying smart, secondhand and vintage items, well looked after and/or serviced, allows me to try, mix and match a lot of different things at a low risk, low entry price.
Selling off with only negligible losses and an odd, but sometimes substantial profit.
Mint condition Technics SL-1210 Mk2, late 70s recapped KEF Concerto, mid 90s Sugden Class A integrated, all for $300-500 per item. Occassionally I'll buy something special and more expensive such as (Ebony)Yamaha NS-1000s but always demo them thoroughly and take into account possible future defects in my purchasing decision.
Your comment contains some really good advice and I just wanted to thank you for sharing!
Wow! People just took the word investment to a whole new level. I have value in my vintage and newer high end equipment. True I invested in some equipment years ago because I love good sounding music and spend good money to make sure that I would have exactly what I enjoy. I Still enjoy it now and will continue to enjoy it. Thanks, Andrew
I have had a pair of Klipsch Forte IVs since two years ago and I didn’t buy them because of their value over time but because of their performance which I have loved since they one. Very often they are looked above the shoulder by many audiophiles but they sound as good as well regarded hi end speakers of way above the price of the Forte IVs.
Personally I wouldn't use the term "investment" in relation to most hi-fi, the possible exception being ultra rare limited production pieces that might actually appreciate in value over time.
That said, I can understand the term being used in relation to the qualities of an item, as-in maybe purchasing amplifier A will give a better return in terms of reliability or system compatibility or somesuch versus amplifier B.
For me, the "investment" in hi-fi is mostly in the experience it can deliver. Sure, if brand X has a higher second-nhand value than brand Y, then that might be a factor in a purchasing decision, but I tend to hold on toi hi-fi components for years at a time, after which the residual values are relatively low.
Most folks I know consider the word "investment" to be singularly focused on funds used or allocated with the expectation of generating a profit in return. I understand that mindset but the idea of considering some things as investments due to return savings or even tax deduction value are not the common interpretation of the word. Just my deduction from my own experiences so YMMV.
It’s not an investment because if I sell my gear, I’m going to lose money. It’s not something that is profitable. It’s an expense.
Investing money in something doesn't guarantee you get your money back, nor more than you invested. People invest money in all sorts of things, it doesn't make it all profitable. What a silly idea.
@burner8959 You raise a really good point, something a lot of comments re: investments equal appreciation I think overlook.
Assets appreciate and liabilities depreciate. That’s a better mindset.
@@trajan350investments (are meant to) appreciate. Liabilities are what you owe others. Expenses are operation costs.
These are toys with some residual value if expensive enough to begin with.
@@DH-og5yrtrue speakers mark up so high it is really not worth the full mrsp
Happy Super Bowl Sunday Andrew and Kristi. I think part of what helps a speaker better retain value is the "bang for the buck" it offers. I have a pair of Concept 50's that I love and I think fit that bill. Along those lines I would love to see you guys review some Acoustic Energy speakers from their 500 series line featuring all carbon fiber drivers including the tweeters. More specifically either the floor standing AE509 or AE520 model would be an interesting comparison falling somewhere in between your two favs the Concept 50's and KEF R11 Metas price wise. Based on other reviews I think the AE 500 series floor standers might offer an appealing sound to the two of you. Thanks again for the great work.
Regarding the word “investment” I’ll refer back to things you’ve said in the past - hifi is entertainment. It’s ultimately a luxury purchase & it’s silly to think of a depreciating asset as an investment.
Granted, there are cars, watches, etc. that end up appreciating, and thus can reasonably be deemed an investment, but they tend to be extravagantly expensive, high end representatives of their class.
Hopefully hifi brings music into our lives & money spent translates to value.
Personally for me the term “investment” is a term used to get to one step closer to listening nirvana.
Like of course it’s using resources and audio ware will depreciate over time. But as investing the time and resource, does it make us feel or hearing like we are getting better audio quality? If the audio ware does give better quality, then it’s a good investment. If it gives lesser of a performance, then basically the 2nd hand sales comes in and see whether how much of a loss.
It’s up to somebody’s preference on what the word investment means which no doubt of course in a more logical term is “to get profit” but this is my take when figuratively thinking about audio in mind.
Investment can mean enjoyment from anything you purchase whether it be a car, audio equipment and cars generally lose money. Keep up the great videos.
No, that's a hobbie. It's not meant to be an investment even if it is.
This was a great discussion. I see where you’re going with the word “investment”. I think people are getting tripped up with it being synonymous with investing in property or stocks. For me investment in HiFi is what I get back from it emotionally. I have spent a lot of money on gear, building a room and of course all the vinyl and CD’s. I will never get that money back no matter how carefully I choose gear. That’s not the point. I’m “investing” in my enjoyment and satisfaction. Money be damned.
I hope we both get a pair of Beolab 5’s! I have the Beolab 9’s now and I think you should look into them as well, absolutely amazing speakers!
WHAT FUN !! Thanks!
I was inspired to look at "Long Term Investment" so I pulled out my receipt from 1977 on my Klipsch heresy's. I paid $ 214 each at the time. Here 47 years later they seem to retail at aprox. $1,600 so that gives me a 647% of change or about 14% annual return. I next looked at my laScalas which I purchased a year later in 1978. I paid $570 each for them and currently they sell for $6,599 which I think runs to a 1,057 per cent of change over those 46 years. That would realize an annual gain of 22.9 %. Just for chuckles I checked the Standard and Poors 500 average over the last 50 years and it sits at 11.13%
Now for all the boo birds out there who are taking this thing way to seriously, yes of course I realize that used prices would be different, but what fun it that? and they Still have a huge percentage increase in value!
Maybe you're forgetting inflation?
Doing some real quick math, your Heresy's purchased in 1977 for $214 each would be the equivalent of $1,122/ea today according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics' inflation calculator. So in today's dollar (because we're selling them today), you "spent" the equivalent of $2244 for your speakers. Their average resale price hovers around $1200 (remember these are Heresy Is not new, IVs). Technically speaking, and adjusting for inflation, they have still suffered a loss. However, to you, the original owner, they have appreciated because you have been able to enjoy them for the pre-inflation price. This also illustrates what's behind a large portion of the wealth gap that exists between older generations and new ones, and why attitudes towards money often differ so greatly.
OMG THERE GOES MY ENTIRE RETIREMENT PLAN !!!
Curse you red baron! ( not your Andrew )
And I thought all those hundreds of Klipsch speakers I bought in the 70's would fund my retirement, drat!
Great fun nun the less, I am amazed that you responded to my message and similarly amazed at how many of your followers you answer. Kudos to you and your bride my friend.
Best to your both, and all you audiophile folks out there. g2
Interesting analysis. Some are evaluated at an overall depreciation and others at an annual percentage. Better to maintain the same depreciation rate. Suggest overall depreciation for all. If not you’re comparing apples to oranges.
I did my best to be fair, but I understand your point. Sometimes, I set out to research items like these for a video and fall down rabbit holes. I hope that for some of the older speakers on this list, you understood or accepted my reasoning about how I ended up talking about them versus another "new" speaker. Case in point, the Beolab 5, I set out to do an evaluation of the Beolab 90, which is new, but couldn't pull a large enough sample size, so I worked my way down to a model that would produce those results, which is why I stated the depreciation using an annual average.
THANKS ANDREW,KRISTI…🤗 I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CONSCIOUS ABOUT THIS AS AN INVESTMENT,TRYING TO GET THE BEST QUALITY FOR THE BEST PRICE,HOPING IT WILL LAST LONGER AND EVERY DAY I CAN ENJOY IT FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE 😅…as for the hair loss, I am 👌,but I will share this with two of my sons 🤔💚💚💚
🤩
Hey Andrew & Kristi you think you’ll do a video on the best looking speakers? Looking for a hifi speaker that’ll blend with my white hardwood floors farm house chic style?
I do think the animosity towards the word investment is funny. When a business buys expensive equipment, its kept on the books and written off over a period of time. Not sure what tax accountants would call it in the US, but where I live this would be called literally "investment goods". Deprecation is assumed. And I don't see how this perspective is unreasonable when it comes to valuables and stuff a household acquires.
From my perspective, it has a lot to do with validation. Whether a reaction is positive or negative often depends on whether that person's opinion was validated or not. Reactions vary accordingly.
When a business buys an item it does so with anticipation of increasing its income. When I buy gear it is uncommon for the gear to appreciate and thus I anticipate a loss.
Cars for the vast majority of us rust into nothingness. That's not to say a car salesman won't dupe you by calling your purchase an investment.
Would the expression you’re looking for be “amortized depreciation”?
@@martytoo When a business buys a car or a computer, it also anticipates the decline in value over time. The computer might be a tool to generate income, but "investment goods" can be reverted into liquid funds when a business is dissolved or simply sells its machines. Similar to how a private person can sell a house or stuff on eBay.
@@martytoobut you are buying with expectation that it increases your satisfaction/happiness in some way. Investment doesn’t just have to mean financial return.
Wouldn't mind some watt puppies. Still to expensive for me though. Well stated on why things cost so much. Built a pair of bookshelf speakers before and the parts cost was well over $700 just on crossover parts. Everything combined was over 2k. Good components cost money.
Speakers are without a doubt a liability, but I definitely consider resale value. I went with Wilson Sabrina X bc you can sell them through a dealer with a warranty and Wilson will replace, or in some cases, allow you to update the drivers. Another brand I like is transparent cables - theiir upgrade program is great. Gear holding their value makes it easier if you’re planning on upgrading later on, but going the preowned route, sometimes the ones that depreciate quickly have less diminishing returns after purchase. Definitely not a lesson to learn the hard way.
Ive re-sold some gear over the years. (Usually at a loss). But lots of my used gear has been passed on to friends and family. Still being used today. So the financial loss is ok w me if the gear is still in use by loved ones
So long as it's being enjoyed, that's all that matters!
Some nice speakers , love the B&O brand for sure and I have no problem with the word investment cause that is exactly what it is .
I'd add the Legacy Aeris to this list (possibly)? They seem to hold their value whereas I've seen the Valor take a big dip from their new price.
Investment...speakers... difficult but not impossible - but amps....now you're talking about investment!
Can i justify the purchase? Have i saved enough? Those are my main priorities when considering a want over a need. Resale is great, but its not my concern with audio. Then again, if i were buying really high end it would be more of a consideration. Great stuff as always! 🍻
Appreciate you sharing your views on what goes into the buying decision.
Honestly, you can get a ls50 mk1 for 600 or less is absurd for such a well made, goregous fesign and great sounding speakers for that trumps everything for people who want some amazing kit at a budget price.
Afternoon Andrew and Kristi👍👍
Morning KJ! Hope you enjoy the video.
What is that sound at 10:37? Is that what I think it is?
?
Oh my gosh I hear it😂
I think it depends on YOUR definition of an “investment”; what are you investing into? A product that you’ll have about as long as a car, before you trade in for a new one? Or, “investment” in the sense of investing into your sound system with products that you intend to keep until they give out, become obsolete, or you die?
I put it this way on the last video and I’m gonna slightly expand one it: anything in the entertainment hobby, whether that’s speakers, gaming stuff, sports cars, espresso machines. Whatever it is, so long it entertains you and makes you happy is already worth it. It doesn’t matter if you bought a Civic or F12 Berlinetta. So long they make you happy, that’s all that matters. People really like counting money in other peoples pockets, always have and always will. We all just need to focus on what makes us smile, makes us tingle inside and our hearts pumping. For some it’s Lambo, for some it’s Ferrari. For some it’s a Klipsch the 7s, and for some it’s the B&W 800 Signature. Whatever the price is, if it does its job which to make your smile wider than the distance between your ears, it’s worth the “investment”. I don’t care my speakers are worth a quarter couple years later compared to when I bought them. They make me smile day and day, every time I listen to music, or watch tv, it makes me happy. That’s all that matters to me and should ever matter to anyone spending money on anything.
Great conversation and video! I really want Wilson to send you some speakers!
Oh and one more thing: speakers are not a financial investment. It’s an “investment in happiness. Whether they go up in monetary value or down, the investment is into your hearts happiness. Just some food for thought.
Really appreciate your honesty and outlook on the topic! Obviously, this video (in my opinion) is more about the end conversation and less about the list, which I think you picked up on and responded to. Love it!
Hi Chris. thinking about pulling the trigger on the Beolab 28:s. Saw your review and listened to them and was very much impressed!
Anything further you could tell me about them to help my decision? Thanks, love the channel!
Investment... Interesting presentation... Sometimes I ask myself, if I were a multimillionaire, would I pay that much for whatever. Our JBL C38's with D131 woofers and 075 tweeters were a big deal in 1955. Today the tweeters are worth a lot more than the speakers were when new. Dad chose wisely. I won't part with them, but a lot of the value is sentimental.
Paul H. in Huntington Beach, CA
A lot of audiophiles will trade speakers for new ones so while they are not "investments", second hand value is important. If the depreciation is savage then you're paying for that if you want to replace it. Maybe it would be better to call the 2 videos the "least and worst depreciating speakers" but I think anyone who watches the video can get the point.
Trying to find Lumina iis on the used market, I am surprised they are not on this list.
Useful advice when you are about to push the boat out financially.
Certain products will hold enough value to allow you to gamble again in the future if you wish.
Certain others could leave you broke.
I was just looking at a couple MG 1.7i online for very low prices. I’ve been looking at that model because prices are so good on the used market.
All in, for my 2 channel listening pleasure, I've spent about 3200 dollars, including my NAS, because I never stream from internet sources.
I am extremely invested in the gear I have and probably won't swap any of it out unless something breaks at this point.
I think that's always a good strategy!
Awesome video idea
Thanks, it's a follow-up to this one: th-cam.com/video/MSFHnrymhu0/w-d-xo.html
Danke!
Appreciate you and hope you are well.
I love GoldenEar BRX speakers with AMT tweeters playing Apple Music lossless
I bought a pair of Yamaha NS-10Ms for $250 in 1979 and I sold them about a year ago for approximately twice that amount. Of course, that ignores the time value of money/inflation since 1979. And the NS-10s found a niche application so they don’t play by the normal rules
Maybe it's due to different people interpretation of the word investment. Investment to some people mean that certain assets like property and stock can appreciate in value over time, but will not consider things like car and HiFi equipment as investment as they're expenses and depreciate in value over time.
I hope we explain our views on the word investment or investing as it pertains to hifi in the conversation portion of the video. Thanks for watching!
The investment I get out of a speaker is how good it looks and the sound it makes. I buy them to enjoy my music or movies , relax and to help take some stress of life away. If I invest money I buy shares which I have made some money over the years.
I sincerely appreciate you answering Kristi's question of the day. Thank you for watching!
Great Audio Content Well Done ...
hi have you ever considered reviewing the Arendal 1723 THX
I had finally had the privilege to demo Wilsons @ a retailer recently, still haunted by my experience it was that good! Anyways, the owner had informed me they hold their value so well because the improvements as new models release are fairly marginal. People know what to expect and what theyre getting with Wilson. A pair of watt puppy's will keep right up with a new pair of Sasha's... so I'm told.
The original B&W Nautilus series must be among the best… and i do not believe it is close. 805n’s in good condition sell for their retail price ($2,000) 25 yrs ago
I yes! I still have a pair and was thinking of selling them. The 2K price is correct.
AR-3a’s sell now for multiples of their original cost (in the 1960’s and 1970’s). As do other several other Acoustic Research speakers (AR-3’s, LST’s, even the budget AR-4’s)
Do they sell for multiples their original cost adjusted for inflation, or did you already factor that in and find that they still sell for a pretty penny? Either way, it's impressive.
Monetary investment? No. Social and emotional investment? Absolutely
I have no problem with how Andrew and Kristie (sp?) use "investment." Value can be more than just a monetary return. But the depreciation rate on a piece of equipment is also a pretty decent signal from the market of overall quality and value.
Good to see Maggie's on the list. LRSs are retaining value too. I just missed some 1.7s for much less than the price listed here. They weren't listed for 48 hours. Maggie owners also write about their ability to repair speakers which I believe helps. However, I think 3.7 aren't doing as well in terms of retaining value but fewer can fit a 3.7 and shipping is expensive.
KEF LS50s were the most common on the list but they hit a homerun to the ears of many in the hobby. Further shipping LS50s are the easiest on the list.
Some real icons, rarities and absolute sweet spots in their respective lines for these speakers. Big speakers often suffer from shipping expenses dragging values down but this list has some combination of the qualities listed.
IMO the the savings of going used on the Sony isn't worth the risk of meeting a stranger or getting an abused pair. However saving 19% on a KEF is saving money and you're likely buying from an enthusiast.
As for investment, it is a factor especially if you are willing to buy used. I am willing to be a model behind if the depreciation justifies the trade off of not having the latest improvements. On another but related note, I also like the idea of buying a procesor rather than an integrated for a home theater and buying good amps. As formats change the processor may need to be upgraded but high quality amps stay high quality. AVR and processor values drop like rocks when they don't have the latest features.
An Investment is presumed to provide a "return" at some point in the future, usually a monetary return. Enjoying audio is an inherently hedonistic activity, but one that can be done without. It's a sunk cost made to fulfill a hedonistic desire vs a physical or physiological need. It either fills the desire or not. It's like buying a sports coupe. It fulfills a desire rather than need so it's a sunk cost and not an investment (broadly speaking, I'm not talking Ferrari 250 GTO here)
Great list u guys .
Thanks!
What brand does Andrew say when he coughs?
Magico I think
I've bought speakers partly because I thought I could flip them for a profit including a Paradigm Ultracube 10 sub, a pair of Castle Knights and a Martin Logan Dynamo 500 sub, all in great condition and all of them together cost me $360. Retail price was $2400
Wouldn't a reverse lineup be more usable for regular folks? eg. a used revel ultima salon which depreciated a ton but sounds amazing? that kinda thing?
I think investment is like the word theory. There is a colloquial meaning and there is the strict definition. The colloquial meaning of theory is like a hypothesis. In science theory is the highest level of evidence that you’ll get. An investment colloquially can mean anything you put your money into and how that related to what you get back which could be money but could also be enjoyment, happiness etc. By the strictest definition of investment, 99.9% of the time audio equipment is just an expense because you will almost always lose money. It depends on which definition you're referring to.
FERUARY: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to invest in Hi-Fi equipment. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and October.
Apologies to Mark Twain.
The highest I’ve seen was the Rogers LS3/5a loudspeaker from the late 70’s. I think they were around $500 based on the conversion rate when they were new and have been selling used (mostly to the Asian market) for over $10000.
Vintage finds can be a whole other animal as collectibility and trends come into play, which is why I didn't really focus much on older models if I could help it.
@@andrewrobinsonreviews are you calling me “vintage” Andrew🤣🤣🤣
Hi KJ!
There is but one area related to music where Mrs KR's observation is correct, i think. That is musical instruments. A Steinway piano, for example, being just one because they go up in price annually, sit in one place, almost, have limited supply and mature in sound with age. So providing that you've cared for one, you can get more than you paid for it after a few years ownership. There obvious others like violins, violins, double bass, wind instruments, electric guitars..... it just depends how long you are willing to wait. I bought a Jaydee bass guitar which used ONLY in studios for recording hence, it was in immaculate condition. It costs £700 back in about 1985, i sold it for £1500 (i stress that it didn't have even hair marks on it and it was sold to a member of a very well known rock band who wanted that sound).
As I and most of my family have made our ROI pay our way (I retired at 52), investment is a life style. My A/V system keeps me out of movie theaters and concert halls and pricing those tickets out adds up. I was very pleased to see the Golden Ear, as the 5.3.4 McIntosh separates system in the family home is based around the Reference and is Golden Ear throughout,
That was truly enlightening! Here is what I want to ask??? In the past 2 years, I have bought and sold numerous pairs of speakers and continued to find myself with the same thought. If I could buy these speakers that retailed for $1890 each and get them for $950 each, did that company still make their profit margin??? And if so, does that truly mean, for the most part, are $1890 a piece tower speakers only worth $500 or less? I ask this because I am wondering, what is transpiring that makes a speaker have the price tags we see within 1 company's line of speakers? All companies are using the "trickle down" wording when promoting "budget" lines of speakers, so what exactly does that mean and are the consumers getting screwed, whether you pay $500 for a pair or $5000 for a pair? Thank you for your thoughts!
Where do you look for these higher end speakers on the used market? I see good klipsch speakers from time to time on sites like FB marketplace, but never Wilsons or working Magnepans. Also wondering how you used speaker sources may have impacted your results.
US Audio Mart, that is where much of the high end used gear winds up. I have bought and sold quite a bit over there.
Fun and entertaining to watch, tx
Thanks for watching!
Brilliant list Andrew. Looks like the Fortes are getting killer reviews everywhere. Any chance you'll be reviewing Rogers speakers anytime? Now theyre back in business? I know you've spoken about supply issue for other speakers. ~peace
Will have to look into the Rogers brand again. Didn't know they were "back".
Modern society associates the word "invest" only with money. When you invest time & money into something, sometimes the return is simply pleasure & enjoyment.
You might investigate audio manufacturers who design and engineer their products with the long term in mind by making them upgradable which saves $$$$ in depreciation and the planet. A great example is the legendary Linn LP12 where the 1974 T/T can be fully upgraded to what you can afford, many of their electronics (for example after 9 years they just introduced an advanced new power supply that can be retrofitted) and active speakers.
If you can identify “future classics” over a long enough time horizon you will most likely get your money back. For example I bought an original NAD 3020, Infinity speakers and (from an allied field) Gibson SG in the ‘70s. I sold them all for more than I paid in 2020 in a big cleanout.
Would I have made more money investing in the stockmarket? Absolutely! But considering the joy those products brought me over decades, I am more than happy with the returns.
I would be interested in an episode on future classics. What new products today have the potential to stand the test of time?
I like the idea of identifying future classics. Speculative, sure, but still fun!
It would be amazing if you could ever get your hands on a pair of Duevel speakers, doesn't really matter which ones. I had the Duevel "Planets" and their omnidirectional sound was phenomenal, though probably not for everyone. I don't know how well known they are in the US though, I think they are a comparatively small German brand.
Appreciate the tip and I thank you for watching!
Even though my hifi needs are met at the time, I really enjoy your takes all the way from Germany. Could well be that Duevel is too niche for your channel and they do make some amazing speakers (in all price ranges) @@andrewrobinsonreviews
I would really like to see you review the Elipson 3230 Legacy speaker....Seems to be a real giant killer