DIY Parkerising in the home shop
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2019
- How to treat steel with a parker phosphate coating to prevent corrosion and improve wear resistance. The materials I used for this process were purchased from Jane Kits here in Australia. They are not a sponsor but they do provide good quality supplies for metal finishing in small to medium quantities which are ideal for the home shop enthusiast. janekits.com.au/jane-kits-pro...
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Always have a jar of clean glass marbles available. If You haven't put enough of whatever You're trying to quench the part in, just drop in some marbles, and there will be more than enough! 🤩
That's a great tip. Thanks.
Regards,
Mark
As a machinist of over 25 years from what I can see you do good work, I can tell you take pride in what you make.
Thanks Phill. When I was teaching students you could usually find 2 or three students out of 24 who took genuine pride in what they made. Unsurprisingly, they were also the ones who had a natural curiosity about materials, processes and tools.
Regards,
Mark Presling
Hear hear.... lovely work.... So good to see in these "instant everything: and "Good enough" times......
I live in the Smokey Mountains here in the USA. In this kind of humidity. The only thing to do is to always have a coat of oil on everything. Just wipe it off when you want to use it and then spray it back down when you put it away.
I lived in White Bluff, Tn. right outside of Nashville on a creek. I would put a tool down, turn around to get a drink of coffee and when I turned back around the tool was all rust. :)
I go through a shit ton of WD-40 doing that, what's sucks is how that seems attract dust and pollen....
@Danny Timms thanks that's actually good to know thanks!
@@andrewyork3869 I used to go through a lot of WD-40 as well. A trick I learned is to get an old harbor freight spray paint gun, One of those cheap one court units and buys some 5W 20 MotorOil and set up the sprayer for Fine spray and just click that on your hose. And spray everything down with that. When You're done. It's a little bit thicker and the dust that settles on top of it Tends to stay on top of it.. It's a better protective layer
My understanding is that Parkerised parts will still rust, just like blued parts will, but that slightly rough surface with a bit of oil soaked in is much more rust resistant.
Paul Joat, I'm not expecting this process to be the end of all my corrosion issues. I figure i can give some of my tools a fighting chance against the dreaded red scourge. 😀
Great, clear presentation - Can't wait to try this and the DIY PID in the shop!
Nice work!
Buddy, that finish looks incredibly awesome to me. I like enough to look into trying this myself. Thanks mate.👍
Thanks for the video. I do like the satin/brushed look of the parts. We are all interested how well this holds up over time.
Dave.
I am planning a follow up video and I am going to do some control pieces (test pieces) to see how the coating holds up. Stand by!
Regards,
Preso
Have a good break. It’ll be interesting to see if that effects tolerance between parts too.
Greetings from Kentucky, USA. That turned out very nice! I like how it looks a bit “SATIN” on the video. That’s very cool! Very nice job for a DIY’er. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Preso. I love the finish that parker phosphate gives. I am very interested to see if you get a good rust prevention from that. A follow up video after a few months (even just a 1 minute review) would be really interesting. Cheers, Craig
Enjoy your holiday Mark and thanks for the video. I look forward to more when you get back.
The only parkerized items with which I have personal experience are an M1 carbine and a USMC combat knife. They both have similar finishes to your tools. Barring mechanical wear you should have excellent corrosion resistance.
Like the surface finish. Hope it outlasts your holiday. Have a good one. Regards
Thanks for sharing Mr P. Nice job. Have a great holiday.
That's a really cool looking finish😊. First I've heard of parkerizing. Thanks for the share😁.
Enjoy your holiday! Looking forward to the results when you get back.
A real nice job fella on the surface finish. I use heat and beeswax. Tip from Penns woods USA. Keep on making videos.
That came out very nice. Have a good holiday thanks for the video.
When I think of the BEST Parkerizing, I have seen is WWII allied rifles, a deep charcoal green tint flat matt no reflections over almost black, just will not rust with ANY oil. Looks just about like You Just Got! Bulls Eye!
Most of the videos I saw when researching the process were those done by gun guys. It would be perfect in that application. The dull matt finish is unusual but super durable.
Regards,
Mark
I really like the look of that texture
Well it definitely looks parkerized, nice work!!
Great video. Enjoy your holiday. Cheers
Great video. Never seen this process before. Cool. Thx for sharing! Have a great vacation. Aloha. : )
Always informative. Thanks for sharing.
That is a fine looking finish indeed.
Thanks, It certainly exceeded my expectations. I have since gone around the shop looking for things to parkerise!
As soon as you described your climate, I just knew that you had credibility. I live in the same climate. Louisiana in the USA is just miserably hot and humid. And all my tools rust. Furthermore, I love your tap adapter. I’m making one of those. 🤙
We have just been through one of the wettest late summers on record. We literally had metres of rain and my tools would often have a sheen of moisture on them. My Bridgeport mill was shorting out the contactor because of the moisture inside the cabinet. Still, the tools that I have parkerised remain without rust. It really is a durable finish although you do need to invest some time in the preparation. I know that cold bluing is quick and it looks great, for a while, but every tool I have cold blued has eventually turned brown and corroded.
Regards,
Mark
Love that finish, Thanks
I like the finish.
hi have a fun Holliday, there's always vacuum packing.
Great video! Hope your having fun on holiday!
Love the finished appearance
Craig, that parkerised finish has been the best and most durable finish I have ever put on steel. It seems to stand up really well in my workshop which is less than ideal for bright steel tools.
Regards,
Mark
I have the same problem with rusting ... I stocked up on 303 stainless steel and any shop made tools, handles, knobs, clamps and such are made from that.... Problem sorted and it's a pleasure to machine.
Damien, I have never tried 303 stainless. Most of what I have is of unknown origin since it was given to me as scrap and some of it is really tough on tools and the swarf is deadly sharp. I use it when I can but it would be nice to have a stock of material where you can be sure of it's pedigree.
Thanks for watching,
Preso
Thanks Preso.
Wow, one more thing to add to my shop list. Ok, hurry up from your holiday for more great content. Just kidding, enjoy your time off. Subscribed. Thank you.
thanks bloke, very useful
Exellent video. Well presented. Didnt add enough solution... glad you didnt just edit it out, teaches about preperation. Wish i found your videos earlier. 👍
Craig, I find I am constantly making dumb mistakes like this and I suspect it is because your attention is divided between getting the job done and thinking about the narrative and the camera work. This is probably why so many people die on the roads because of being distracted by smart phones. Food for thought!
Regards,
Preso
You forgot the best rust conversion there is! Steam! Watch some videos that Anvil gunsmithing does on it. It converts the red rust to black. Park is a great preventative step. Excellent video, subscribed!
That's a really good point. I live in Virginia, about 1km from the Chesapeake Bay. Same deal. Warm humid day, inside the cool garage everything is soaking wet. At night, EVERYTHING is dripping.
I used to live in Western Queensland which has a very hot dry climate. We would often find old cars out in the bush which were still in pretty good condition because of the low humidity. I guess that is why they mothball old aircraft out in the desert. Fun fact, you can find Davis Monthan Air Force Base on Google Earth. I swear there are F18's mothballed there.
Regards,
Preso
Nice set up, similar to mine. Another reminder to build the PID Controller. Old video so you know this I figure, but the surface will age into a dark black color. I get the same gray color initially.
Thanks. I love the finish that parkerising provides. I was very sceptical at first since I have had very limited success with cold bluing methods. Even the oldest parts I did in the parkerising bath still look as good as when they were first done.
Regards,
Mark
Oh praise the lord!!!!
Finally a repair, modification and fabrication channel using metrics, speak proper english and contain fantastic projects.
Time for binge watching and binge drinking.
Ah well, have a beer for me then! 😀
@@Preso58 Have another ! I am starting out and Inches.. never used them and I am not going to learn them .. my lathe, mill and all tooling are metric thank God!
The Phosphate bit reminded me of the Phosphorous (*not* Phosphoric) Acid treatment some painters do to sheet metal. Or, let the part 'flash rust' then convert iron oxide into iron phosphate, aka "hard porous salty layer" which then absorbs most liquids into that layer (be that oil or paint). Texture seems to be the same, color is dull light grey tho, not dark/black.
All of the Parkerized finishes I've seen on old military rifles (M1 Garand and M1 carbine) have has the flat finish but with a greenish tinge. For 70 year old rifles, the rust resistance has been very good. A light wipe down with an oily rag followed by a dry rag might also help.
The greenish tinge is stain from cosmoline that has soaked into the pores that parkerizing creates.
@@GunFunZS Tnx for the explanation.
good one enjoyed
Parkerising is always matte..... good job....
Parkerizing can be done with either Manganese Phosphate or Zinc Phosphate. Manganese Phosphate yields a black color. Zinc Phosphate yields a gray color. I'm not sure which you have.
The vendor describes it as parker phosphate so I am none the wiser. I may get in touch with them at Jane Kits to have them clarify. I will be doing a follow up video sometime in October. Stay tuned!
Regards,
Mark Presling
Have a nice holiday
Bluing, Browning, and Parkerizing require regular oiling to prevent rust. They are intended to hold oil, that will repel water. Also the color you achieved is just about right. I’ve never seen it darker.
Pleased to meet you. Looks like TH-cam are giving you a bit of a boost. Here's hoping your site takes off. I am amazed at all the different finishes you do. Yep, I've been binge watching. I hate to suggest anything but I wouldn't mind a series on the different finishes. I've found various gems of information in different videos but all together and with comparisons would be very helpful.
Thanks, I have covered quite a few methods in earlier videos. I use powder coat a lot in my builds and anodising is an interesting process as well. I recently started zinc, nickel and nickel cobalt plating but I have not done any of the nickel cobalt on camera yet. The nickel cobalt has a colour very similar to chrome plate but it is far less toxic and doesn't require quite as many steps. I hope to do some specific videos on these processes in the future.
Regards,
Mark Presling
@@Preso58 , Thanks. Your channel is the first I've found that has a wide variety of finishes so I think it's unique and I suggest that puts you in a fortuitous position of being able to spread your knowledge and experience. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for more information from you. Thanks again for sharing.
Thanks for doing this. I was wondering how it was done. I have a shotgun with a Parkerized finish and it seems to resist corrosion quite well, although I care for it as I do any other firearm.
Where you are in Australia has the same issues with condensation as we do in Hawaii. I have to coat things with oil, keep machines covered with tarps and put tools away to avoid corrosion problems.
BTW, I was laughing at the "low tide" caption. I think we all make mistakes and that's often how we learn to do things better and how to plan ahead.
I have tried using cold bluing solutions and they look good for a few months but the corrosion soon sets in. All the tools that I have parkerised still look as good as the day they were done. Some are three and four years old and I don't take any special care of them. It's a great process and not particularly toxic or hazardous. It does take a while to get all the liquids up to temperature though. Hawaii would have a very similar climate to where I live. We spent a few days in Kauai and the climate felt very familiar to us.
Regards,
Mark
Funny you mention how it looks like a bead blasted- blued part. At my step father's shop he had the blueing tanks. We would wait until we had a bunch of parts ready to blue then do large batches like you said. We preferred the parkerized finish on guns(used it for most of the tools he sold as well). Polishing a gun and blueing it did leave that nice mirror like blue. But for a gun you are bush wacking with we figured the parker finish was more durable. Not to mention the sun doesn't glare off it. The finish you have there looks very similiar , although that bit of crystalizing looks a little different and pretty neat. I wonder if it will knock down with use. Great video
Steve, it is a lot more durable than I thought it would be. I have a chuck key done in the parkerised finish and after several years of use it is still rust free and even though it knocks around amongst the chips in the tray under the lathe it hasn't shown any signs of wearing off. Even the square end that goes into the chuck sockets is still good.
Regards,
Mark
You could put the PID controller and thermostat in series so the thermostat (which is set higher) sets a safe upper limit to the temperature.
"Here, it's finished! Now let me wail on the chuck teeth with a hammer a couple times to fit it together!" 😱
Christopher, yes, I know it looked bad and I immediately regretted the decision to mount the chuck in that way. Unfortunately, my attention was divided between proper workshop practice and trying to look good on camera! 🙄
I've successfully used a mix of these. I clean the part really good. Dip it for a couple of minutes in a mild muriatic acid solution. Rinse in boiling water and then I cold blue with Phillips Cold Blue. I then put the part in boiling water (same pot) again for a couple of minutes and while hot soak it in 3-in-1 oil and don't dry it off until next day. Ten times better than just cold blue.
Cold blueing is really a decorative finish. Simply taking a part and either boing it or steaming it to form rust then transform it into black ferric oxide and finish by using a carding wheel to remove the loose stuff will do a better job of corrosion prevention.
Nice finish. I have the same issue with steel tooling in my shop covering over with rust. Btw, I just discovered you had a channel. Subbed.
Thanks Arnold. It's great to have you aboard. I have just put some test samples outside under an awning to see how durable the coating is. I am going to be away for 6 weeks so I am keen to see which is the best method of treating the parkerised finish. (oil, wax, paint etc.)
Regards,
Mark Presling
My guess as to why the finish feels slightly rough is the treatment just before the Parkerizing must have etched the metal to make it more porous for adhesion of phosphate. Looks like the black oxide coatings on tools that aren't chromed. Looking forward to the follow-up.
I think the activator is actually phosphoric acid but I cannot find any information about this. It certainly appears that there is an etching action before it goes into the parker phosphate. Having said that, it also appears that there is a lot of fizzing going on when the steel is in the parker solution as well. I have 6 samples sitting out on the bench at the moment and I will be leaving them there for nearly 7 weeks so I am keen to see how they hold up during that time. Stay tuned for the results.
Regards,
Mark
Hi Mark, that is a very nice looking finish. One thing that I noticed (and I don’t want you to think I’m nitpicking) but you should really have the jaws retracted on the chuck when you give it that rap with the hammer. Well I hope you are having a great holiday,see you when you get back and thanks for sharing your videos with us! 👍😀
Gary, My bad! I realised straight after I mounted the chuck that I should have retracted the jaws. Luckily there was no damage.
Regards,
Mark
Ive used this a lot on my bike, but you still have to oil it to keep the rust at bay. Its good to paint over, adhesion is very good, if painting no oil.
Pete, that is what I read regarding painting parkerised finishes. The surface feels very porous and I am guessing it will absorb paint well.
I am getting ready to do some tests on some mild steel samples. It should be interesting.
Regards,
Preso
Interesting I'll be looking for the follow up
I use my PID controller w 4×8 aluminum plates on a 20ton Rosin press. Works good on my titanium dab nail too. Never thought of heating water with it.
Those PID controllers are surprisingly adaptable. The programmable ones are even better.
Regards,
Mark
Thanks.
I found an old socket that had been trod into the (dirt) floor of the shop. I threw it into an old coffee container full of vinegar ... missed it when I pulled other parts out, then went on the road for 10 days, then spaced it for two or three more. Remembered it when I moved the container and heard it scooting around. Between the rust and the prolonged vinegar soak, it pitted drastically, but it hasn't showed any sign of rusting again. The patina is very much like what you got here, very much like an impact wrench socket. It sits on the bench, being used for anything except as a socket.
I know Randy Richard did some bluing with a method that used vinegar, but that was a long process, best for those with more time than money. We aughta look back to that, and see if we can improve on it...
Diggerop, I have used the electrolytic method for rust removal using washing soda and a stainless steel anode and it gives a similar finish and as you say it resists rust well afterwards. Maybe all those methods create a similar oxide layer. It was the texture on the parkerised finish that I was impressed with. It was hard to show on camera but it really did look like it had been bead blasted. Probably off topic but I had made some parts for a model steam locomotive from bright mild steel and I polished them with emery cloth and after a few days they had a rust patina on them. I was very disappointed but went through the polishing process a second time and they are still bright and rust free many years later. I am wondering if the initial corrosion creates a skin of some kind that protects the underlying steel?
Regards,
Mark Presling
Hi Mark. When I was s apprentice in the early sixties we use to send motor casings for Parkerising. The reason was to make paint stick to the bare steel surface. That might explain why it produces a rough surface.
When the steel comes straight out of the parkersing tank it feels quite rough, like shark skin. If you didn't dunk it in the dry touch oil it would take paint really well. A lot of paint manufacturers specify sand blasting prior to paint for the same reason. I am planning to do a follow up video on this process because all the parts that I have parkerised still look as good as the day I did them. Even things like chuck keys, which tend to get knocked around quite a bit, still look perfect.
Regards,
Mark
That is a very interesting video Mark. Thank you for posting it. That is absolutely typical of a parkerised gun finish. I have handled many parkerised guns and the phosphate finish is very durable and rust proof in normal circumstances. This is why government arms procurers used to specify this finish as it was to make an intended pun bullet and squaddie proof. Provided it gets an oiling every once in a while your tools should be able to withstand your local climactic conditions well. The book looks a good buy, how much did it cost if I may ask?
Samrodian,
The book was AU$22 plus shipping. It's a good reference. The guys that started the company were motorcycle enthusiasts who wanted to be able to polish and plate their own parts. That is why they sell in small quantities and their products are aimed at the DIY enthusiast.
Regards,
Mark Presling
I would be pleased with that as a finish nice and dark.
It is an unusual finish but the best thing is how durable it is.
Regards,
Mark
I live in southern Canada, its quite humid here in the summer. When I built my shop I installed ceiling fans. They act to keep the air moving in the shop so condensation doesn't collect on equipment. As long as the fans stay running I don't have any problem with condensation causing rust. It's the same principle as a frost free refrigerator, the fan keeps the air moving so condensation doesn't collect, freeze and build up into ice.
Great idea mate
I noticed the same thing in my garage. Now i just leave the shop fan running all the time on low.
I wouldn't call any part of Canada humid, go to the central southern US and you will see what humidity is.
@@phillhuddleston9445 Perhaps not but we do get days where the air is nearing 100%humidity and on a rare occasion the air will become super saturated.
Superrodder - isn't supersaturated air what most of us call fog?
Struggling with same issues in my shed down in Melbourne. Got some Cortec VpCI spray that's supposed to protect metals even when there's direct contact with water, a week later no rusting yet...
I know there are some really high tech coatings available now but I can tell you that all the parts I have parkerised are still looking perfect. Some of them are in daily use and others sit on a machine and are rarely touched but the coating seems to hold up really well. I have a number of samples that I did several years ago and I have been keeping them to show the difference between parkerised and bare steel. I hope to do a follow up video soon.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 I'm using it on surfaces I cannot easily heat treat, blue or parkerize like lathe chucks. The local supplier gave away 20L of Cortec 377 since it was close to its useful shelf life, giving it a shot. Seems to be working so far.
Nice.
Well done, thank you for the video. Have you ever tried applying wax to your surfaces to help combat the moisture? I have found that Butcher's Bowling Alley Wax (the clear) works amazingly well. It comes in a can like paste wax. Wipe it on, let dry, polish off with cotton cloth. Repeat if desired. Have a nice holiday Sir!
I find that tools that I use regularly don't get a chance for the dust film to build up on. Also they pick up oil from the machine and your hands. It's the ones that get used only rarely that rust badly. My shed is also not completely sealed. Moisture tends to get inside very easily during our wet season so it is an ongoing problem. I did polish the column on my drill press when I purchased it second hand and I treated that with wax and it is still looking good. When I was teaching we would always rub floor wax on the chisels and plane soles before the 6 week summer holiday and they resisted rust well. It really is just a case of ongoing maintenance. Something I am not good at unfortunately.
Regards,
Mark
It sure doesn't seem complex. Cool
Thanks Presso,
Have a look at a video by the cogwheel, he uses a similar technique but it is rust blueing with salt and vinegar.
Enjoyed cheers
Raymond, I have watched that video and many more that use a similar process and the results are impressive. I almost went down that road for some parts that I made but got sidetracked into zinc plating instead. I use that on parts that need to be more corrosion resistant like screws and fasteners. I decided to try the parkerising out of curiosity and I must say that it is a lot easier than I made it look on the video. I think the results will justify the cost but I am withholding my judgement until they have sat around the shop for a while. I guess the old saying is true - there are multiple ways to remove the epidermis from a feline!
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 I enjoyed your video Mark, very informative as usual, had to laugh at the reference to the cat, my fathers words done with PC. Cheers Mate, enjoy your trip.
John, Australia.
If you're looking for a blacker finish, hit your freshly parkerized parts with a dip in your cold blue solution before the oil bath.
Looks like anodized steel. I like it
What a pain I cant get this stuff in NZ, trying to ship it would be asking for trouble I suspect :)
That surprises me. I found out about Jane Kits by watching Geoffrey Croker's channel. He is a Kiwi so I assumed you would be able to get it shipped to NZ easily. Try contacting Jane Kits directly. They seem to be very helpful.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 I will thank you, certainly is a great supplier of stuff I cant get here
Interesting process and video. You may have already tried this I am wondering if you have tried running a dehumidifier in your shop or used those small bags of moisture control bags in your tool box drawers to help control the moisture problem? Just curious.
Thanks for sharing.
Joe, unfortunately, my workshop isn't well sealed. Being a steel shed, it has gaps at the tops of the walls and around floor level. We also have wild fluctuations in both temperature and humidity. Some days I can walk into the shed and there will be a sheen of moisture on the steel surfaces of my machine tools. Dehumidifiers work well in sealed rooms since you can just pump the moisture outside. In my case it would just flow straight back in again.
Regards,
Mark
Hi Mark
Great video, thouroughly enjoyed your presentation.
I live in Adelaide, maybe catch up one day
Thanks
Troy, my wife grew up in Adelaide. We found out recently that she went to the same school as Jimmy Barnes. Evidently they were only one grade apart.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 hi mark what a small world i live in the south (Hallett Cove) about 45km from where your wife went to school. Do you still live in SA?
@@Preso58 :)
@@metalshopwithtroy5755 I was a Brisbane boy and met my wife when we were both teaching in South West Queensland. We now live on the Sunshiine Coast near Noosa. My wife still has family living in Adelaide though.
@@Preso58 look forward to meeting you next time your in Adelaide
Thanks mark
People who have the pid controller already have a sous vide set up.. I mean I use a crock pot but.. you got the thermal couple you need..
That brings up an interesting question. Wonder what the finish would look like if the part was sand or bead blasted before the parkerizing ?
Randallology, it is recommended that some sort of bead blasting or abrasion will improve the durability of the parkerised surface. I think the Metex M dip is used to etch the surface of polished steel prior to the actual parkerising. I have seen some suggestions that a dip in muriatic acid serves the same purpose.
Regards,
Mark Presling
I'd recommend to oil it down with mineral oil, and let it soak into the parkerization. Water soluble oil is good to halt the process, but for real rust protection long term you need to add that second oil barrier. I am also in a sub-tropical climate (Florida) and know what a job it is to keep things rust free. Mineral oil (with a bit of liquid lanolin if near the beach) has worked very well for me, and is cheap. 3-in-1 is also very good, if it's available in your country.
Faelwolf, what ratio mineral oil to lanolin do you use?
@@LeverPhile I generally use straight mineral oil, but if lanolin is needed, about an ounce to a quart of mineral oil would be about the heaviest you would need to go, say if you where wanting to rust-proof the anchor on The Lost Dutchman, or for things stored outside in the weather or on a salt water boat deck or something :) A little lanolin goes a long way. Straight mineral oil keeps rust away from my anvil which is stored in a non-climate controlled shop with a leaky roof, in Florida. How's that for effective? You can also thin the mix with mineral spirits, if you want a lighter coating that will still protect, but it will need refreshed a little more often. I use the thinned stuff on tools that get a lot of use, just wipe them down with a mineral oil wetted rag after using them.
Handy tip: mineral oil also works amazing on firearms, and doesn't react negatively with black powder residue, so is really good to keep those old muzzle loaders rust-free in the bore. :) Mineral oil (light coat) in the breech and barrel, 3-in-1 inside the works, and you're GTG.
I believe the recommendation to use the soluble oil is so that you don't need to wait for the part to dry before you get the oil into the surface. I have heard of parkerised steel flash rusting very quickly. I have just completed a series of 6 test pieces that have all been treated using different processes. I am going to leave them out in the shop while I am away on holiday for 6 weeks and then see if any have corroded during that time. I did them in soluble oil, wax, mineral oil and one was just painted on one side with no oil. Should be interesting. I will do a follow up video when I get back.
Regards,
Mark Presling
@@faelwolf1177 Indeed, recently Ive been using plain mineral oil as a rust protectant on all my tools and hardware, including firearms. And also for wet sanding and using files on metal. It works well and is very easy on your skin. It's also really cheap in the pharmaceutical aisle at Target, CVS, Walmart, etc. I paid around $2.50 for a 16 ounce bottle!
I've heard about adding lanolin for heavy duty protection or longer term storage, but I haven't needed to use that yet. Thanks for the info.
@@Preso58 When I saw you install the part without coating with mineral oil I cringed a little, but it will be interesting to see how it holds up. With multiple parkerized pieces each coated differently, it will be interesting to see what stays protected and what doesn't. Looking forward to the follow up.
Hopefully you also cleaned inside the bore well. Having rust there would interfere with the utility of the holder. I would have been interested to find out how well the guide rod ran inside the tap holder once both were parkerized, but I don't know if you did the guide rod.
Kevin Martin, the guide rod was a really nice fit after the parkerising process. In fact it was better than before. My understanding is that the process makes the parts "grow" slightly. I had a look down the bore and it appeared to be treated the full length but I was not able to scrub the inside of it. The parts cleaner I used seems to do a good job just as a soak. I did not do the guide rod, mainly because it wouldn't fit in the saucepan I had the parker phosphate in at the time. I have some more parts to do so I will do that one later. I will try to report back on the fit when I do the follow up. I am keen to find out if you can "selectively" parkerise a part by masking off some areas.
Regards,
Mark
I would love to see a quick follow up video on this now that it has been a couple of years.
I intend doing that but I can tell you that all the parts I have treated with the parker phosphate are still as good as when I processed them. Items that I have cold blued and left out in the workshop are mostly corroded. I did some cold blued parts that were stored in a closed box and they are still mostly black and corrosion free though.
Regards,
Mark
Interesting
Nice tap holder setup Mark! Can I ask what size thread you'd be comfortable holding onto with that?
I think it might handle up to 14mm metric coarse but in most cases I just want to get the tap started concentric to the lathe axis. When the tap starts to slip in the chuck I can swap over to a standard tap wrench. Having the tap slip is a good way of avoiding broken taps!
Regards,
Mark Presling
Thanks for the reply Mark
Nice looking...Did it change the slip tolerance on the spindle? Thanks for sharing.
Daniel, I didn't parkerise the guide rod or the MT3 taper and I noticed a slightly better fit after the bore of the tapping spindle was done. I suspect that the roughness of the parkerised finish would soon be rubbed off so it might appear to be tight to start with. I am planning to do the guide rod later so I will try to follow up at a later date.
Regards,
Mark
I was wondering about that as well. Great video Mark, very interesting!
Aren't you supposed to sandblast parts before you parkerize? Never seen a polished piece go in like that but it turned out awesome.
I usually just ensure the parts are chemically clean. The texture that you end up with after using the Jane Kits solution is very much like sand or bead blasting but it is done entirely by the etching action of the phosphate solution. I guess that having a sand blasted finish to start with helps to increase the surface area so maybe it just reacts quicker.
Regards,
Mark
Looks nice Mark. I must confess to skimming through your video a bit (always short on time) but did you say there is any improvement in hardness or wear resistance? Wouldn't a cold case hardening chemical be so handy! Cheers, Cliff
Cliff, it doesn't really harden the surface but it does improve "lubricity" which is the ability to carry oil and therefore reduce friction. I believe that camshafts are often parkerised after grinding to reduce wear. One thing that I have noticed is that closely fitting parts will "grow" slightly after parkerising but I usually remove the parkerised coating on any surfaces that need to fit. I primarily use it as a rust preventative treatment and it's ideal for that. If you do find a cold case hardening compound I'm in!
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Cheers! Cliff
When you got back from holiday, were the parts rusted, or did they hold up to the condensation?
I still have those samples and they are still looking great. The untreated piece of cold rolled steel is now showing orange rust though. I have treated lots of parts this way and so far I have not have any fail. I did a follow up video th-cam.com/video/HdOgttl0Qww/w-d-xo.html Check at about 5:00
Regards,
Mark
Looks exactly like I would expect a parkerized part to look.
He needs to bead blast it as Parker does not like to stick to a smooth surface.
The hot crystals are open and when the part cools in the oil the crystals shrink trapping the oil inside.
I then use WD40 for the oil treatment.
The initial “activator” bath does a similar job to sand-blasting in that it roughens the surface, but is finer, much less messy and removes less metal so there’s no risk of overdoing it and changing the part’s dimensions.
Do they teach the displacement of fluids in school in Australia? Put a clean rock in the pot with your tool.
good idea BUT it is an acid so you would not want to use a rock.
Karm Esnom I have personally done it when Parkerising small gun parts for over 30 years. You use a granite rock, not a piece of sandstone or limestone. Never had a problem.
A glass of water would work too, but if the liquid is boiling the glass could tip over.
Did you rub oil into the die holder after cold bluing?
The supplier recommended a proprietary oil but I just used WD40 after rinsing in cold water. I have found that a lot of the coating comes off quite quickly if you rub or buff it. It starts off looking black but with wear and tear it sort of goes a medium brown. It is probably best as a decorative finish that is not intended to be handled much.
Regards,
Mark Presling
@@Preso58 I wonder if a heavier oil would work better. Wd40 is primarily a solvent and doesn't really contain much oil. I've seen others use cold blue very successfully.
I have had good parkerizing results using Turco rust converter.
First I clean most of the loose scale off with sandpaper.
then there are 2 different methods to use.
1. Is to use a toothbrush, wear rubber gloves, and dip the brush into the turco, and scrub vigoriously for 15-20 min. depending on part size and amount of scale on the metal. It WILL remove mill scale. Eventually you will get a nice even greay finish, which then you rinse with clean water, dry well, and coat with wax. I use a cheap floor wax which seems to be merely kerosene and paraffin.
2 this method is more expensive to set up, but better for production. get yourself a largish ultrasonic cleaner. hen a second smaller plastic container to fit in the ultrasonic cleaner. This is because Turco will react with the stainless in the cleaner. Fill the plastic container with turco, place in the ultrasonic cleaner. pour some water around the outside of the cleaner but inside the stainless tub. this will transmit the vibration from the machine thru the water and into the turco. then just clean away with the ultrasonic cleaner until a nice finish is achieved.
That's interesting. I had to google turco to find out more. It sounds like a wonder solvent. I am wondering if you can purchase it in small quantities. This is the usual limitation for hobbyists.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 yea. They sell it in tiny bottles. Its just rust converter
Put a thin coat of car wax on your chuck body to prevent rust. Renisance wax is even better if you can find it.
My 1903 Springfield rifle, Parkerized, absorbed so much Cosmoline over its decades in government storage that it took on an olive green hue. Blued (smooth) or Parkerized (texture) they must be oiled regularly.
FLORIDA, come for the rust, stay for the corrosion. Those countertop fryers might work, and they have a basket for your chicken, or metal parts. What is in the parkerize solution, is this basically phosphate? Am thinking ultrasonic cleaning/degreaser would be good too. Thanks 👍
Nick V, I am guessing that Florida weather would be even worse than what we get here. We are far enough away from the coast not to have the wind blown salt issue but I still find the rust is a constant source of irritation. I believe the parkerising solution is based on phosphoric acid and either manganese phosphate or iron phosphate. The instructions that came with the solution said that you can replenish the iron in the solution by dissolving steel wool in it when the blackening action starts to taper off. This makes me think it is probably iron phosphate. I do have an ultrasonic cleaner but the tank is quite small. I think that heating the cleaner would be a big help.
Regards,
Preso
@@Preso58 Remember to degrease the steel wool in acetone before you do that. Some cabinetmakers supply shops sell oil free steel wool,but for small quantities, I think local hardware store plus acetone is a whole lot easier.
I expect any chemical process involving conversion like this will result in, at best, a fine blasted surface effect as the process changes the parent material surface structure.
One of the benefits of the Nitriding processes which have superseded Parkerizing in the firearms industry is that they affect the metal fairly deeply, yet change the surface dimensions and texture almost not at all. Functionally nitriding is superior, but park has its place. Parkerizing adds a slight increase in surface hardness which protects against scratches, and very very slight corrosion resistance. To gunsmiths, it primarily serves as a good way to make oil or paint stay where you need it. Anywhere the parkerizing gets polished off by function is rubbing enough to keep itself bright anyway. Nitriding on the other hand is a lot harder, and can make a file skate on a fairly soft steel. It is corrosion resistant enough to be better than stainless, and doesn't need paint or oil to work. You might notice that the grade 10 fasteners are often black... That's a nitride finish. On our commercial fishing boat, I noticed that even in the salty bilge, nitrided bolts often stayed unchanged for decades, whereas the steel they are in is invariably rusty.
Mild steel will never go as black as a hardenable steel with some % carbon in it. There's even a difference in color between high carbon steel thats been hardened and unhardened high carbon steel. The reason gun parts will go very black when parkerised is because most of the parts contain a higher carbon %.
That's what I understood from reading my book but I haven't had a chance to try it on high carbon steel yet. I do love the surface finish though.
You can buy gun bluing or blackening. After parkerizing, pour the bluing/blackening agent into a zip lock bag and put the part in there with it. It will darken nicely. Just a thought if you want it darker. Terr
I already have a cold bluing solution but I find that it's not very durable. The colour tends to fade to a sort of medium brown and it still corrodes.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58
I put it on after the parkerizing. If I think the parkerizing comes out too light (light gray), I drop it in a bag of cold blue/black and wash it around. Works good on bolts and stuff.
If you instead of removing the rust, just boil the part in distilled water for about 15min. That will transform the red rust to black rust, which practially is the rust bluening you see on older firearms. Anyway, Parkerizing is a very good, if not better option.
You don’t need to boil the park solution. Just below boiling point will work well and you have less evaporative loss.
I did some more experiments a couple of weeks ago using a new rectangular stainless steel tank. Even though the temperature was set to less than boiling point, the solution does evaporate a lot and I realised that it had become super saturated. There was a lot of fine crystals in the solution and the volume had dropped by about half. The solution started to create really big bubbles which burst quite violently splashing the solution out of the tank. I topped up the water and it stopped. I have a video half finished but I am away on a holiday at present and won't be back for a month. I left some parkerised samples out in my shop to see which type of post treatment gives the best corrosion protection. When that video comes out you will see what I mean about the solution and how it changes as the water evaporates out of it.
Regards,
Mark Presling
If you leave parts in a the phosphate for to long crystals will form on the surface, a good test to see if the process is adequate is to wipe the part with a damp white cloth before the oil step and if the rag is clean then the finish had adhered corectly and if not the part then needs longer in the phosphate solution, also lower carbon steels give light colours so a 4140 will give almost a black finish in my experience and manganese phosphate will produce a darker thicker coating then say zinc phosphate
Braden, I did a piece of 4140 the other day and it came out a nice dark charcoal. It was a tool made from some chrome plated hydraulic piston rod and part of the chrome outer surface was left on the part. The parker phosphate didn't touch the chrome at all which proves that it only works on ferrous stock. So far all the parts I have done seem to be very durable and the coating seems quite tough. I have done some sample pieces to try to get a handle on what the best after treatments are and I did a piece which I want to deliberately abrade to see how thick the coat is. I will have some results when I return from my holiday in 6 weeks.
Regards,
Preso
The texture is probably because it's zinc phosphate. If it were Magnesium phosphate it would be black. Zinc molecules are fairly large intent to leave a discernible text your to anyting you apply the phosphate coating to. An application of Z Max or Marvel Mystery Oil would seal that up quite nicely.
44 Hawk, I got in touch with Cain at Jane Kits and he confirmed that the solution I am using is a Manganese Iron Phospthate. He also said that you do need to reapply the oil periodically. I did some tests before I left for my holiday and I am keen to see how they have behaved while they are exposed to the elements.
Regards,
Mark Presling
Do you have a video of how you made the tap holder?
Christiana, sorry, but no I didn't film that project.
Regards,
Mark