Using Hardware Preamps on Your Master Bus
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ส.ค. 2022
- In this video, DavidSJ takes us back to his home studio to discuss how he uses stereo preamps on his mix bus to add some analog color to his mixes. Downloads the audio files here
www.dropbox.com/s/moff5353r89...
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The Transformers on the WA 273 are always engaged!!! The Tone button just changes the Impedance of the input Transformers.
Thanks!
OK, cool!
Great video! I can't say thank you enough for all have taught me through your videos! God bless you all!
Our pleasure!
Thank You!
Listening on my Sennheiser HD600s and my ART RM5s, I do like the API..to my ears a little more warmth and the low end is nice and tight. The Neve sounds slightly more open with more mid-range. They both sound wonderful in their own way and each has it's definite analogue signature. Very concise video and easy to follow! Thank you David! I am so salivating to do this!
Thanks Juan!
Thanks Juan! It's worth the effort, believe me...
I tried this with a Neve 5024 preamp and it makes a very noticeable difference. Thanks for the advice!
No problem!
Yeah, what your ears were saying I heard as well. These airpod max phones have pretty solid drivers in them.
I can't decide if I like the added color and compression from either. I like the scooped neve sound better, I think there's more clarity and definition across the spectrum. Maybe if they were level matched after the compression I'd think otherwise, but there's a lot to like about the dry mix.
Great video!
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for doing this David SJ! I’m traveling this weekend so I can’t hear this in my monitors yet but will definitely fire it up when I get back home. Thinking of running my mixes through the Focusrite ISA Two I use for recording
Dave's the man!!
This channel should be much bigger. Keep at it!
Working on it! Thanks for the support
Ill try this with my shelford channels. I already use them in the mix processs as outboard EQ, compression and Silk transformer, but using the pre adds another layer. Worth a try!
Let us know what you think once you give it a try
So what did you find? I’m wondering if I can use the gain on the 542s now
Would love to know how that works out!
Thank's for your help! I think you're just right! I prefer the Neve mix, I think it has a "magic" that the two other miss a bit, in comparaison. I will definitively try it for my own work!
Thanks for watching!
wow, this technique really removes the flatness from the digital mix. Sounds more analog!
Indeed!
Exactly it's the analog it makes the plugs sound 3d.. I just started using pipeline in S1 and I won't be going back totally in the box
Hey David, great demo, thanks! I've been doing what you've shown with a Warm 273-EQ. It definitely adds some analog flavour without any aliasing issues. The only downside is that the EQ gain controls aren't stepped so it's hard to match the L/R channels. Cheers!
Cool, thanks!
Thanks for watching Chris! I get how the EQ can be hard to balance, but matching the EQ is perhaps not as important as matching the L/R levels...PEACE!
I do exactly this on every mix with few flavors to choose from. Everything runs through the ICs on my SSL SiX but then I hit a color box with 15IPS tape color, pentode tube saturation, and an API-style op-amp and transformer. I can dial in each of the colors as needed for the track.
Do you use the DIYRE Color modules? How do you like them? How's the quality?
@@DavidSJ_DAP YES! I have a bunch of DIYRE stuff; 15IPS tape, pentode tube (Louder than liftoff), CTX transformer, OSA5 opto compressor with vintage output, CP5 colour preamp, DI box, line attenuator box (helpful for sending line level into mic inputs). Everything I've made from them has been amazing. Maybe we should collab on a video about them ;)
@@JasonBuffin Thanks, I've been looking at them for my 500 rack, I may just take the plunge...
go for it!
@Jason Buffin Freaking love my DIYRE stuff. Don't have any of the colour stuff yet, but the OLA5 is dope and the EQP5's are always on every mix. Can't wait for that bus compressor.👀
Preamps alone such a great improvement over straight digital. Both models sound good, Neve probably best. All the great records we know from the past were recorded and mixed using analog gear and tape. If sounding like Those Records is a criterion for a great mix (and it should be), there is simply no substitute for real analog; plugins do a Thing, and are better than nothing, but side by side with the Real thing they've never measured up.
Thank you for watching!
Thanks for the video! I have a question, Dave! When you send stereo signal from line outs to hardware, how do you set gain at line in for right and left channel? I thought on focusrite clarett there are handy trims on the line ins, and you can not set two line in levels for exact same number! Correct me if im wrong please! Very interesting how did you solve this problem? Im choosing right usb interface for me for hybrid mixing and can not find anything exept antelope orion series where you can set the same level digitally for different line ins. Thanks for the answer! Appreciate your work!
Good question. I'll let DSJ answer this one.
I like theAPI.
Thanks for watching!
People talk about tubes all the time...I have found out its TRANSFORMERS. Its the magnetic thing that adds the magic
I agree with you!!
For me, I prefer what the WA-273 does versus the WA-412 in these examples. Honestly, I thought the 412 version sounded "smaller" than the other two, but I'm guessing it's due to you hitting the 412 a little more aggressively? Now I'm going to have to wire up my 273 and test again, so thanks for that!
Thanks for watching!
Yeah, it's possible I wasn't 100% fair to the 412 in this demo...I've been preferring that one on most of my work recently...
And get that 273 working, dammit!
i prefer personally Neve preamps on the whole mix and API on individuals tracks because they boost transients more than Neve
Nice!!
I have the Capi Vp28 platinum editions on my master bus!!!
NICE! I have heard the Capi stuff is great!
Greetings,
This is an amazing video. This technique has been used in major studios for years. Some people use this in place of analog outboard bus summing, but I have yet to compare this technique to an outboard summing mixer.
Currently rewiring my lab but my mix bus will be vintech x73i -> ADL 1500 (dual La2a clone as a limiter) -> x16 to print final mix. Wondering if I should add my SSL to the mixing stage and add it again during the mastering stage? Thoughts? Feedback welcome.
what SSL? you did not say. Adding a Master bus compressor make a lot of sense for sure
@@MixingMusicAnalog SSL Fusion, sorry I left that information out of the original post. 😅
I mix through ssl pres. Big open clean and punchy
NIICE!!
Something no one seems to mention is that your interface and its converters have high and low pass filters on them and essentially sending anything out of the box into outboard gear and back in can be providing an eq removing unwanted subfrequencies or even diminishing aliasing artifacts in the high end. Depending on how well you mix you may even hear more drastic differences sending to outboard gear because its removing your flabby and poorly mixed sub frequencies and it can immediately tighten up that sound.
We have a video coming up soon about that topic. Those filters you are talking about are cutting off frequencies well above 20K so you really cant hear that anyway. This all has to do with bit depth and samples rates etc....again, we have a video coming soon to discuss. Thanks for watching
@@MixingMusicAnalog awesome, I'll look forward to watching it.
If your recorded sound it in 44.1k, it will cut above 22.05k and if it's in 48k it'll cut above 24k... and so on... there are exceptions but that's the main understanding as far as I know.
I'm surprised, but I actually prefer the dry version. The API is my second fave. I may need to download the files and double-check.
Check them out and give a listen
Yeah, the dry mix is REALLY good...the tracks I used are stems from a partially mixed session, so there is some EQ and compression going on them...I wanted the track to "fit together" better than raw files...
This may be a silly question, but how would this way of thinking work with plug ins?
I intend on getting a wa273 (I currently have a wa73eq and love it) but due to other upgrades taking priority, should I bother with mixing through a stereo preamp plug in?
Other notes, my current chain is stereo pair of eqpwa, wa bus comp, drawmer 1974 EQ and ssl fusion
That is a fine stereo bus chain. You really dont need anything else.
On the WA273, the TONE button doesn't "engage" the transformer. The transformer is always in the circuit. The TONE button changes input transformer impedance useful with ribbon mics and for a different tone.
Thanks for the info
Great Video, thank you both! Dear DavidSJ, how did you gain match the printed tracks - did you match LUFS, peak or by hearing? The Neve preamps change the sound to my ears the way, the Rupert Neve Summing Boxes do, they seem to give more 3D and air. Sounds great to me. But then I wondered hearing the 0 test: if it does not 0 out over all frequencies nearly the same - doesn't that mean, that it is just louder? Or is ist not louder but more saturated over all frequencies? 🤔
Dave and answer this below
I gain matched by normalizing all 3 then checking on a VU/LUFS analyzer///the tracks did not print out matched, I did that in the second session...
The null test does indicate some volume differences, yes, but I also hear frequency differences between them...as I said in the video it is EXTREMELY subtle, but the differences do come into play as you mix through them...
@@DavidSJ_DAP thanks a lot!
I am confused about something here because I recently got a pair of eqs and comps as 500 series units they are all mono except for the comps that have an option to work as a stereo pair.
In your situation I see that you are sending a stereo mix to one mono preamp which after processing is going to make a mix mono, right ?
And let's say now we send the setereo mix to a pair of mono eqs or preamps. How do we do that ?
The way i tried doing so is to send the stereo mix in to two seperate buses and then panned each bus to Left and Right then sent each bus as mono to each pair of preamps and eqs.
Is this how it is done or this is the wrong way ?
Because I tried processing my stereo bus by using two mono compressors for each channel and I was getting phasing issues.
Any guidance will be much appreciated.
This is a question is for DSJ, I'll let him answer this one.
Okay!
Thanks for watching!
Hi guys, does anybody try the rascal audio stereo preamps? And if so what do you think of them? Thanks!!!
I don't have any experience with Rascal Audio, sorry
i think Avalon AD2022 was built for that ... very transparent and ideal for reamping an already colored sound + stepped knobs perfect for stereo matching ---
DW fearn VT2 is the perfect larger than life HI-Fi sound , very fancy sound , but it can break the stereo with its variable gain.
RND dual preamps not a good deal if you already have the silk circuitries in your racks especially the MBT
Thanks for watching!
@@MixingMusicAnalog i learned a lot from your channel
Might be cool to get a lunchbox with 2 SSL preamps and a SSL bus compressor.
Good idea
does anybody have a problem getting the print to actually get audio of the hardware . everything is routed right . I'm can hear the difference for sure when I put my wa273 on my master track. but when I go to print and play back . the processing from the wa273 doesn't get recorded. I can't figure out why for the life of me. My Daw is pro tools
No idea, sorry. I am not a Pro Tools user. I am sure something is routed incorrectly
Are you bouncing realtime or offline?
Bounce in realtime
This is your answer Juan. Anytime I'm running a hardware insert I can no longer bounce faster than real time. You listen to the track print.
Also, something I've learned from when I started running outboard was if you're using an interface that utilizes an internal digital mixer or direct monitoring blending with the daw output, you should bypass the mixer/turn off dir. monitoring so you're only hearing what the daw is putting out. Otherwise you'll hear the latency free direct signal from your outboard gear on top of the DAW mix which is going to have some latency going back in and cause phasing issues that will sound terrible.
Would the UA Twin Finity 710 be considered?
Sure. That is a great preamp
This is cool channel. A respected Engineer whose actually engaged.
What’s that Reaper color theme called?
No idea, sorry
So it have to be a stereo preamp ?an if so can i use two different preamps
Sure you can!
@@MixingMusicAnalog Thank you for the great video, and finding your answer that using different mic pres to run mix bus through is possible. So at the lower gain settings running one channel through Neve and another through Api would not be a major problem due to different characteristics these brands/styles of preamps are known for?
Wouldn’t you be better off just running your mix through something like the Neve 542 tape emulators. You’ll have much more colour and saturation on hand to dial in to your liking. Seems like a better bang for buck, or am I missing something here?
That is another way to do it for sure. but they are different sounds.
It's a choice...I like to use the preamps for a "console" type effect...the Tape Emulators have a more specific kind of effect on the audio, and could actually be used in conjunction with the preamps as well...
As far as "bang for the buck" a stereo preamp like mine costs about 1000.00, while the Neve 542s are 850.00 each, or 1900.00 total...
@@DavidSJ_DAP Thanks for the reply. Im not knocking your approach and was wondering what the result would be running a mix through a preamp like you have. To my ears It gives a slight smiley face curve to the mix and obviously pushed at the input stage of the preamps it would get some nice saturation also. Have you tried the SSL Fusion? Engaging the transformer in the unit and pushing the input really brings some nice colour which I think you would enjoy, fills out the bottom in a classy way.
@@djdanger9812 yeah they've used fusion
Am I the only one scratching my head about the Neve sounding mid forward and kind of “trashy”? The kick’s bottom just drops out completely. The mids aren’t tastefully “punchy” either… just the ugly kind we usually EQ out of a mix.
Sound nothing like the vintage Neve’s I’ve worked with or the BAE that I currently own and run mixes through.
The API sounded muuuuch better to my ears on this… the only “boutique” sounding mix of the three.
The non effected was a great sounding mix just very “clear” and clean/less euphonic “hardware” sound.
The W73 honestly sounds broken or something. I’d love to hear a BAE or even 500 series AMS Neve comparison.
Either way thanks for the vid! 👏
Thanks for your input and for watching!
I'm like 1000 nervous tics...
its a good video
"I'M ALRIGHT! As I pick up the pieces..."
LOL!
Yep