Good explanation ! I was with intelligent octopus go but switched to local 12M fixed. I have had situations where even though the charge plan was set beyond 5.30 AM, I was charged peak hour rate from 5.30 . I found that to be cheeky .
I don’t understand this ‘unfair gaming’ argument ? My understanding is that we are only given additional ‘active charging’ times when there is excess power on the grid ? So no ‘excess’, no ‘active charging’ So I have frequently plugged my car in in the morning, to be given no active charging periods until late that evening. So no amount of ‘gaming’ is going to create more active charging time, if there’s no excess on the grid - and so what if people use that active charging time to recharge Batteries, etc. - how is that worse than recharging overnight, when, in low-wind conditions, Octopus may not have much low cost energy to give, in the first place ? I’m sure that octopus, which is now the UK’s 2nd biggest energy provider, would have foreseen a lot of these issues in advance, - and they did this tariff, anyway ! It attracts new customers, makes cheap renewable energy a ‘thing’ and saves them having to switch off renewable energy sources when there is an excess !
You aren't "given" any slots, it's not a database of slots that are cheap, you're allocated slots based on whether the grid is busy or not, when you tell octopus that you need a full charge in a time that it cannot give you a full charge (plugging in at 6am and wanting the car to be fully charged by 10am for example), it prioritises the charge before the peak time grid slots and just treats it like "bump" charging but at 7.5p/kWh, some folks use the car API and limit the Amps in the car to something stupid like 3Amps (normally a car will charge at 32amps), octpus will then keep monitoring that based on the charge speed and keep extending the bump until it's completed, it's absolutely gaining the system.
Ah, that's fair enough Nicholas, that is naughty, - I just got the impression that you were just talking about 'normal' use of the system to charge through the day, apologies.@@NicolasRaimo
It doesn’t work like you think it does. You plug your car in and tell whatever you are using that manages the charge what time you want it and how much. Kraken then works out the best way to do that.
TBH I am not convinced that this is actually an issue. Octopus control the extra slots, they don't guarantee them in any way, nor to the guarantee that your car will reach the intended target charge. Only that they will attempt ot control the device to reach the intended charge where possible. I assume that at the moment the extra slots are being added because it is cost effective for Octopus to do so, either because there is a surplus of energy and it would cost them more to turn it off, or that the amount they paid for that energy was lower than the amount you will, or that they are abitraging it against other usage. If octopus had guaranteed you would get the extra slots then I would agree with you, but as they control them then its less of an issue in my mind. I will also note that for Charger based integrations, the settings from previous days just carry over, so unless you go in to the app and specifically say "Hey I don't need any extra charge buy the way", it will just assume you need the same amount as the day before as it has no idea how charged your car is.
The other aspect is, can you make use of those extra hours? For example, I literally moved to intelligent yesterday and my first charge periods were set as 2330-0000 and 0030 -0800. Well my car was fully charged (90%) in that first half hour. So aside using the extra period of 0530-0800 for stuff i didnt need right then (ex washing machine, tumble dryer, dishwasher) there was no way i could use it. The house battery was fully charged well before 0530.
Without any gaming of the system, intelligent go is already a fantastic tariff. I use washing machine, dryer and dishwasher on a timer for 1130pm start, along with the EV. in the winter, I set off electric underfloor heating at 430-530 which is still warm when we get up and means less work for the gas central heating. I’m not sure how much this has saved me, but I do know my bills have come down despite now having a Tesla to charge up.
I doubt many are gaming it. So much effort to do this everyday. Octopus are learning how people use this, so if it’s not hurting them atm then they will let it slide. If it becomes a problem I’m sure they will step in.
Just fitted a compatible Zappi and getting IO later this week. Always charge to 100% so hopefully this isn’t seen as gaming the system. Thats the charge I need so I expect to have that delivered.
I'm grateful to Octopus as I am saving over £100 a month charging my home battery and car. I rarely charge more than 40% an night. My only problem is that Octopus drawns charge outside 11:30-05:30 and drains my home battery. Also my friend who lives in Peterborough keeps getting free power ups. I've never had one! Would like to see these shared out.
You can get an electrician (preferably whomever installed the battery) to tweak the wiring so that the battery's CT clamp never sees the car charger. They may have to add in extra wiring but it shouldn't be a "big job" to do. Alternatively, if your battery is home assistant compatible, you can always set it to standby or charge when the car is charging.
To stop the battery drain set a ready by time of 5:30am for the car charging, both your battery and car will be full and the battery will then take over powering the house.
Thanks for the advice. I did try this but ater 5:30 the car would start charging (as if doing the routine for the next day). Rewiring the charger or setting up home assistant is the way forward but I'm having difficulty finding someone who knows about how home assistant works. @@edwyncorteen1527
I’d love to have a “can I have a couple of hours at 13/14p” option. So that I can get a bit of a boost for the home battery to guarantee I don’t draw at grid peak. I ask for ~24 miles a day, but I do that most days. I don’t like to charge at genuinely peak rates, but a brief boost at ~midday helps me not draw at 4-6pm - so it’s not particularly obvious to me how much it actually costs them - ‘cos that 4-6pm cost is way more than I’d be paying them at my peak rate.
The system has some real issues: I don't know if it's Ohme specific (since as I understand it Ohme is doing the time allocation rather than Octopus directly). Today, since it's half term, I pushed my "charge by" time out to much later than usual (because the point is that they can choose the best time for them, so I give them more options)... and the (small) planned charge moved, to directly across the agile peak period rather than it nestling in the "noon lull". I'll probably cancel the charge when that peak kicks in... I'd be happy to have a "give me this much over each week" schedule, where they can give me more one day, and not bother on the next.
Yep, I genuinely think there is scope for a smart tariff that charges 50p+ during the 4-7pm peak rate, 7.5p during the overnight rate and 20-25p during the daytime rate. This would be a kind of Agile-lite tariff, with more predictability.
The only way I game the system is to put on the dishwasher/washing machine/dryer when the extra hours cheap rate is on. Save me staying up until 11:30 each night, to put these on then. My Ohme Home Pro app tells me when the cheap rates will charge each night. Sometimes they are 15mins, 30 mins or longer. But I don't have solar or battery, so im not gaming any of those. Hopefully, that's still fair use!?!?
As i live alone with solar and powerwall i never went on the night rate i thought if i did it would fill the battery and the car i didnt know you weren't supposed to
... the vast majority of us don't need extra slots (my calculation is that you need to be doing 60,000 miles a year), as most of us only charge once (or twice) a week overnight - until we can get a heat pump for free, then in our case kero 28 will win - we can run the house (EPC Grade G) / EV ... et al. for less than £1K a year.
As i live alone with solar and powerwall i never went on the night rate i thought if i did it would fill the battery and the car i didnt know you weren't supposed to
Are you also saying that I shouldn’t charge up my home storage as I currently do during the six hour cheap rate period, as for the car I only ever charge it during the cheap rate times I never set it to charge to 100% during the day to be ready buy let’s say 17.00 hrs.
I have wondered what they might do long term. I have switched to IOG after getting a Zappi installed as my ZS isn't compatible. I do note that in the Octo app it allows you to set a charge from 8am to 11am which I do occasionally use to top the car up and then putting some washing on as I work from home. I'm close to getting solar/battery system and trying to work out the payback and have 2 spreadsheets, one how I'd use IOG to charge the car/battery overnight and sell as much solar. The other is assuming that they will change it at some point to only allow the car to be charged cheap like OVO. I'm sure people are realising that IOG is just about the most profitable way to run a solar/battery setup with fixed rates. It's only a matter of time until Octopus make a change to the tariff in my eyes.
I just want to point out that if Octopus schedule a charge outside of the 6 hr off peak period, then if you have battery storage the charge will be first taken from the battery and not just from the grid so the battery provides about 2.5 kW and the grid provides the remaining 4.8 kW (7.3 kW charger). Also, even on Octopus Go, charging during the off peak period if you do not set your battery to also charge at the same time as the car charging you will lose your battery capacity first since the order of taking electricity for the home is first solar, then battery, then grid. Note, therefore, that for any car charging schedule it is imperative to make sure that you set battery charging carefully so you do not wake up to low battery charge to supply your early morning needs before solar kicks in.
I’ll be doing a video on how to have your battery charge automatically on these outside windows soon so click subscribe and the bell icon… I also covered the issue at Octopus Intelligent Has Issues For Solar, Battery & API Cars th-cam.com/video/bUZXiEVQe0o/w-d-xo.html
@@NicolasRaimo I've already solved the issue within the 6 hr normal off peak period by having my batteries being charged from 11:30 pm to 5:30 am and setting my car charging period to be completed by 5:00 am which means that my batteries will simultaneously be charged at the same time as the car therefore keeping the batteries fully charged upto 5:30 am. The only time I may get depletion is if Octopus decide to allocate extra hours before 11:30 pm in which case the batteries may get run down before then and so I would be paying at a peak hour rate for usage up to 11:30 pm. They will not allocate hours after 5:30 am since I have asked for the charge to be completed by 5:00 am. I normally charge from 20% to 80% which for my 40kWh Zoe needs about 24kWh over the 6 hours off peak and with a 7.3 kW charger only requires 4hrs max which would definitely be completed by 5:00 am.
@@barriebirch7956 so the video am making will fix all that and you can set it for a real time in the morning plus it will charge the batteries extra when car chargers
I will occasionally see if my Ohme charger will allocate some extra slots, if 1. Agile rates are currently low and 2. We need to have a washing blitz or do other high energy tasks concurrently. That said, I also tend to do lots of small top ups (50 to 80%) overnight, giving the charger plenty of flexibility when to charge, so it can pick the cheaper slots. I also discharge my battery during saving sessions. So I view this as give-and-take. I hope Octopus see it the same way. Another option Octopus have is to reward/reinforce good behaviour though Octopoints. Carrot > Stick.
@peterbee8892 you are spot on! @@NicolasRaimo you have said Octopus is rarely losing money... to be clear I don't think anyone is 'gaming unlimited cheap energy' from Kranken ... as these time slots ARE offered by KRANKEN not in kindness but only when Octopus still wins money, in other words customers pays for Octopus's imbalances grid costs. Google this 'It follows an Ofgem deep-dive into the issue which began last year amid concerns that some generators may be taking advantage of existing rules after balancing costs tripled in the winter of 2021/22, to over £1.5billion between November 2021 and February 2022, compared to average annual winter balancing costs of just under £500m for between 2017 and 2020. The record-breaking daily costs peaked above £60m on Wednesday 24 November 2021, driving up the ESO’s overall balancing costs, which are ultimately paid for by consumers, to £3.1bn that financial year. '
Is there anyway of finding out if/when any extra hours have been allocated so I can use them in the rest of the house? e.g. an API or Push Notifications?
Plugged my car in this afternoon and intelligent paused the charge and set a schedule. I looked at my phone and hour later and found the charge had restarted at peak rates, charging to almost 80%. There is no way to see if this was at peak, or if Octopus had chosen to charge outside the normal cheap rate window.
Same thing happened to me last night, (Tesla M3) had 7% left in it when I got home. I wanted it to be 80% this morning. All it had managed to put in was 66%, and that was by 8am. I've read in the faq's that this is all charged at 7.5p
Keep a note of it and cross check the date and time against the bill when it is generated. That will tell you. Also Octopus often add in extra slots and you won't get a notification. If you start the app again the newer slots should show (sometimes I find killing the app and starting it again forces a refresh to show it).
We all know that the First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be converted from one form to another so? If nothing ever comes for free how can this be true?
Is it OK to use IO GO for the 6 hours cheap energy, and NEVER plug the car in? I have a house where I can’t plug in, so I need to charge my EV elsewhere. My car is eligible for IO GO - so can I sign up for the tariff and just use the cheap overnight rate for my home storage heaters? The T&Cs don’t prohibit it.
I don’t think you’ll be able to use it, because although you have an eligible car and presumably a smart meter (?), part of the installation process of this tariff is a brief ‘test charge’ of your car. So if you can’t do even that brief charge, then you probably can’t use this tariff … But if in doubt, give them a call, they can only say ‘no’ ?
I'd say check with them first, and explain your situation fully (ie, what are the chances that you could get a 'proper' charger fitted sometime in the future) honesty is ALWAYS the best policy, - they can only say 'no' ... and if they say 'yes', then you're sorted ! And if they they say no, they you could always just be put on a 'normal' overnight tariff, which is only a little bit more, anyway ? @@williammykura2342
It’s in the terms you must do so many smart charges but curious why you’d need to deal if you’re not charging your EV? Other deals might be better… evnick.com/energy
@@NicolasRaimo I’m on Octopus Economy 7 for storage heaters which gives me 8.5 hours at 16p (11pm - 7:30am). IOG gives 6 hours at 7.5p and a cheaper day rate. So IOG looks better unless there are better rates out there..
I don’t think it would be wise to restrict the minimum charge allowed. That sounds a little controlling and won’t go down well. I think the fairest thing for Octopus to do is tell you in the App, OK you need more than the overnight 6hr rate to add your desired amount of energy for your specified departure time, we’ll switch your charger on when it’s greenest but you’ll pay the full peak rate unless Octopus is offering “plunge” type sessions. Also if it’s unplugged the rate calculation should reset to Zero and take into account how many charging hrs you’ve had within the 24hr period if you try to game on reconnection. Can’t say fairer than that.
As far as i``m aware and was also told by an octopus employee ...the extra time slots are just solely for the car and thats it so you dont get an cheaper electric before the 23.30 timeslot and then obviously everything you use is at the cheaper rate until 05.30
Hi, geat video and thanks for the info. I keep having to accept the extended hours, let me explain why. I have a home battery and when I plug in say at 10.00pm the charge plan might be from 11.30pm- 7.00am to get a 100% charge. So from 5.30am-7.00am I am on extended hours. But the problem I have is that my home battery charge window is from is from 11.30pm-5.30am, however my battery will discharge from 5.30am-7.00am (wake up to a full car but a flat home battery) So I set the app up to need car at 5.30am. I don't like doing this. I am in the middle of configuring a home made micro controller system to see if I can work within the variable octopus window and prevent the home battery discharge issue. This tarrif is in beta The last thing I want to do is upset octopus!. Lets hope Octopus find this comment.
I dont see an issue saying you need the car by 530am. As a backup you can have the car max charge % set so the car wont charge after 0530 anyway either because its actually full or the set limit. My car charge period yesterday was 2330-0000 and 0030 to 0800 but my car hit its 90% limit in the first session since itw as already at mid 80's%. So even if Octopus decided to charge my car between 0530 to 0800 nothing would have happened.
The only way to fix this is to only give the cheap rate to the car charging . It clearly says all smart charging is at the cheap rate. It doesn’t say you have to do it in the cheap rate period and if that was what they wanted we’d not have IOG. What might be happening is more people that know how this can be exploited are doing it in their favour. You know how it can be. Would you feel ashamed about doing it if wholesale prices were negative?
What Octopus Energy are doing with the cheap over night EV RATES they put the price up per KWH during the day (home use) and increase the daily charge rates, so what they are doing supplementing the cost on cheap night rates, you gain little or you end up worse off, so where are Octopus loosing out.
I sort of see the future where the 6 hours fixed will not be a thing, and they will definitely want the whole house benefitting, clearly evident by them working with inverter manufacturers offering support and API access to work with their various tariff. I wonder if the future might be such that yes, you get 4-6 hours a day of cheap rate, but they are not the same hours every day, more tied to the grid state.
TLDR:They could prevent this "Gaming" by not changing the time of use tariff for all consumption but leaving it as it is and refunding the difference (22.5p)for what the EV draws or is calculated to draw i.e. What happens now: if IOG schedules a charge for 9 - 9.30pm it sets the tariff for that half hour to 7.5p. If you have a 7kW charger the EV will consume 3.5kWh. If you game the system and have capacity you could consume another 10kWh and get 13.5kWh@ 7.5p. (£1.01) They could do this: schedule a charge for 9 - 9.30pm but leave the tariff at (just under)30p. You consume as much as you want. With a 7kW charger only 3.5kWh can be consumed by the EV. So if you consume the same 10kWh more they charge 13.5kWh@30p (£4.05) but then credit you the difference (about 30p - 7.5p) for the EV 3.5kWh@22.5p (78.75p) so you end up paying £4.05 - 78.75p = £3.25
@@NicolasRaimo why is this doubtful? It solves the problem, others are doing it so it’s doable, they don’t have to kick out customers and it only really affects the gamers.
The fair use clause is clear (and doesnt't say that people will be kicked off the tariff). They just need to enforce it... "Intelligent Octopus is subject to a fair use policy with a maximum of six hours of managed charging per 24 hours. Should your charging schedule request more than six hours per 24 hours, we reserve the right to charge any incremental usage above six hours at the day rate."
So do those six hours include the 23:30-5:30 block, or extra to it? If it's included anyway then there is little point in intelligent existing at all and we may as well just use timers on our cars/chargers. And for me, it would mean I would never be able to get a full charge if my car is below 40% when I plug it in (and yes, I do need the 100% per the instructions for the car, this is actually encouraged) and the tariff loses a lot of it's USP.
@RichardBrooklyn The tariff is designed to give six hours of Octopus' choosing to charge your car at cheap rates. If that's not long enough to charge your car then they reserve the right to charge peak rate for any tme over six hours. It is not designed as a "Charge your car from flat to 100% at 7.5p/kWh" tariff. The 2330-0530 block is irrelevant to the smart charging aspect but it does provide a useful period for load shifting. Think of it like the 4 hours for Go with 2 extra hours thrown in as a thank you for allowing Octopus to control the car when you need to charge it. For *most* people, even those with a home battery, the energy consumed in this period *outside of car charging* is fairly low when compared with the amount a car takes.
A few people gaming the system is not going to affect their last tax years profits of over net £200,000,000 that's like saying piracy games movies and music has a affect on the multi billion pounds industries if they changed intelligent people would go go to ovo or other ev only low tariffs
Bit naughty to encourage this? Might ruin our good deal we have. Essentially of cheating becomes rampant they'll engineer the possibility out or put the pricing up.
This guy has no idea what the Octopus business model is, what they are paying on energy markets or whether they lose when someone ‘games’ the system. They will be well aware of what is possible already
Good explanation !
I was with intelligent octopus go but switched to local 12M fixed. I have had situations where even though the charge plan was set beyond 5.30 AM, I was charged peak hour rate from 5.30 . I found that to be cheeky .
I don’t understand this ‘unfair gaming’ argument ?
My understanding is that we are only given additional ‘active charging’ times when there is excess power on the grid ?
So no ‘excess’, no ‘active charging’
So I have frequently plugged my car in in the morning, to be given no active charging periods until late that evening.
So no amount of ‘gaming’ is going to create more active charging time, if there’s no excess on the grid - and so what if people use that active charging time to recharge Batteries, etc. - how is that worse than recharging overnight, when, in low-wind conditions, Octopus may not have much low cost energy to give, in the first place ?
I’m sure that octopus, which is now the UK’s 2nd biggest energy provider, would have foreseen a lot of these issues in advance, - and they did this tariff, anyway !
It attracts new customers, makes cheap renewable energy a ‘thing’ and saves them having to switch off renewable energy sources when there is an excess !
Problem is there’s a gaming trick to give endless extra hours like I said in video I don’t want to explain how this is done
You aren't "given" any slots, it's not a database of slots that are cheap, you're allocated slots based on whether the grid is busy or not, when you tell octopus that you need a full charge in a time that it cannot give you a full charge (plugging in at 6am and wanting the car to be fully charged by 10am for example), it prioritises the charge before the peak time grid slots and just treats it like "bump" charging but at 7.5p/kWh, some folks use the car API and limit the Amps in the car to something stupid like 3Amps (normally a car will charge at 32amps), octpus will then keep monitoring that based on the charge speed and keep extending the bump until it's completed, it's absolutely gaining the system.
Ah, that's fair enough Nicholas, that is naughty, - I just got the impression that you were just talking about 'normal' use of the system to charge through the day, apologies.@@NicolasRaimo
It doesn’t work like you think it does. You plug your car in and tell whatever you are using that manages the charge what time you want it and how much. Kraken then works out the best way to do that.
wow thats interesting.
So basically the whole time your car is charging at a slow speed then you get the whole time as low price
TBH I am not convinced that this is actually an issue.
Octopus control the extra slots, they don't guarantee them in any way, nor to the guarantee that your car will reach the intended target charge. Only that they will attempt ot control the device to reach the intended charge where possible.
I assume that at the moment the extra slots are being added because it is cost effective for Octopus to do so, either because there is a surplus of energy and it would cost them more to turn it off, or that the amount they paid for that energy was lower than the amount you will, or that they are abitraging it against other usage.
If octopus had guaranteed you would get the extra slots then I would agree with you, but as they control them then its less of an issue in my mind.
I will also note that for Charger based integrations, the settings from previous days just carry over, so unless you go in to the app and specifically say "Hey I don't need any extra charge buy the way", it will just assume you need the same amount as the day before as it has no idea how charged your car is.
The other aspect is, can you make use of those extra hours? For example, I literally moved to intelligent yesterday and my first charge periods were set as 2330-0000 and 0030 -0800. Well my car was fully charged (90%) in that first half hour. So aside using the extra period of 0530-0800 for stuff i didnt need right then (ex washing machine, tumble dryer, dishwasher) there was no way i could use it. The house battery was fully charged well before 0530.
Without any gaming of the system, intelligent go is already a fantastic tariff. I use washing machine, dryer and dishwasher on a timer for 1130pm start, along with the EV. in the winter, I set off electric underfloor heating at 430-530 which is still warm when we get up and means less work for the gas central heating. I’m not sure how much this has saved me, but I do know my bills have come down despite now having a Tesla to charge up.
100% no need to ruin the deal when you can already do so much as it is!
I doubt many are gaming it. So much effort to do this everyday.
Octopus are learning how people use this, so if it’s not hurting them atm then they will let it slide. If it becomes a problem I’m sure they will step in.
Just fitted a compatible Zappi and getting IO later this week.
Always charge to 100% so hopefully this isn’t seen as gaming the system.
Thats the charge I need so I expect to have that delivered.
I'm grateful to Octopus as I am saving over £100 a month charging my home battery and car. I rarely charge more than 40% an night. My only problem is that Octopus drawns charge outside 11:30-05:30 and drains my home battery. Also my friend who lives in Peterborough keeps getting free power ups. I've never had one! Would like to see these shared out.
Which battery you got I’ve got mine to see my EV charging and charge my battery
Thanks Nick for replying. I have the Growatt 6.5 KWH battery and the Growatt SPA3000 inverter.@@NicolasRaimo
You can get an electrician (preferably whomever installed the battery) to tweak the wiring so that the battery's CT clamp never sees the car charger. They may have to add in extra wiring but it shouldn't be a "big job" to do.
Alternatively, if your battery is home assistant compatible, you can always set it to standby or charge when the car is charging.
To stop the battery drain set a ready by time of 5:30am for the car charging, both your battery and car will be full and the battery will then take over powering the house.
Thanks for the advice. I did try this but ater 5:30 the car would start charging (as if doing the routine for the next day). Rewiring the charger or setting up home assistant is the way forward but I'm having difficulty finding someone who knows about how home assistant works.
@@edwyncorteen1527
I’d love to have a “can I have a couple of hours at 13/14p” option. So that I can get a bit of a boost for the home battery to guarantee I don’t draw at grid peak.
I ask for ~24 miles a day, but I do that most days.
I don’t like to charge at genuinely peak rates, but a brief boost at ~midday helps me not draw at 4-6pm - so it’s not particularly obvious to me how much it actually costs them - ‘cos that 4-6pm cost is way more than I’d be paying them at my peak rate.
The system has some real issues: I don't know if it's Ohme specific (since as I understand it Ohme is doing the time allocation rather than Octopus directly).
Today, since it's half term, I pushed my "charge by" time out to much later than usual (because the point is that they can choose the best time for them, so I give them more options)... and the (small) planned charge moved, to directly across the agile peak period rather than it nestling in the "noon lull". I'll probably cancel the charge when that peak kicks in...
I'd be happy to have a "give me this much over each week" schedule, where they can give me more one day, and not bother on the next.
Yep, I genuinely think there is scope for a smart tariff that charges 50p+ during the 4-7pm peak rate, 7.5p during the overnight rate and 20-25p during the daytime rate. This would be a kind of Agile-lite tariff, with more predictability.
The only way I game the system is to put on the dishwasher/washing machine/dryer when the extra hours cheap rate is on. Save me staying up until 11:30 each night, to put these on then. My Ohme Home Pro app tells me when the cheap rates will charge each night. Sometimes they are 15mins, 30 mins or longer. But I don't have solar or battery, so im not gaming any of those. Hopefully, that's still fair use!?!?
I didn’t know anything about gaining the system…I do now !
As i live alone with solar and powerwall i never went on the night rate i thought if i did it would fill the battery and the car i didnt know you weren't supposed to
They need to sort their billing out. Great tariff but operationally they are in a mess.
... the vast majority of us don't need extra slots (my calculation is that you need to be doing 60,000 miles a year), as most of us only charge once (or twice) a week overnight - until we can get a heat pump for free, then in our case kero 28 will win - we can run the house (EPC Grade G) / EV ... et al. for less than £1K a year.
It’s less about you needing extra slots more octopus rebalancing when power is cheaper or greener sometimes
As i live alone with solar and powerwall i never went on the night rate i thought if i did it would fill the battery and the car i didnt know you weren't supposed to
When smart charging, mine sometimes says ADJUSTED. Am I still being charged at off peak rate?
Are you also saying that I shouldn’t charge up my home storage as I currently do during the six hour cheap rate period, as for the car I only ever charge it during the cheap rate times I never set it to charge to 100% during the day to be ready buy let’s say 17.00 hrs.
No as said in video charging your battery is fine it’s people tricking system into almost 24/7 7.5p electric
I have wondered what they might do long term. I have switched to IOG after getting a Zappi installed as my ZS isn't compatible. I do note that in the Octo app it allows you to set a charge from 8am to 11am which I do occasionally use to top the car up and then putting some washing on as I work from home.
I'm close to getting solar/battery system and trying to work out the payback and have 2 spreadsheets, one how I'd use IOG to charge the car/battery overnight and sell as much solar. The other is assuming that they will change it at some point to only allow the car to be charged cheap like OVO.
I'm sure people are realising that IOG is just about the most profitable way to run a solar/battery setup with fixed rates. It's only a matter of time until Octopus make a change to the tariff in my eyes.
I just want to point out that if Octopus schedule a charge outside of the 6 hr off peak period, then if you have battery storage the charge will be first taken from the battery and not just from the grid so the battery provides about 2.5 kW and the grid provides the remaining 4.8 kW (7.3 kW charger). Also, even on Octopus Go, charging during the off peak period if you do not set your battery to also charge at the same time as the car charging you will lose your battery capacity first since the order of taking electricity for the home is first solar, then battery, then grid. Note, therefore, that for any car charging schedule it is imperative to make sure that you set battery charging carefully so you do not wake up to low battery charge to supply your early morning needs before solar kicks in.
I’ll be doing a video on how to have your battery charge automatically on these outside windows soon so click subscribe and the bell icon… I also covered the issue at
Octopus Intelligent Has Issues For Solar, Battery & API Cars
th-cam.com/video/bUZXiEVQe0o/w-d-xo.html
@@NicolasRaimo I've already solved the issue within the 6 hr normal off peak period by having my batteries being charged from 11:30 pm to 5:30 am and setting my car charging period to be completed by 5:00 am which means that my batteries will simultaneously be charged at the same time as the car therefore keeping the batteries fully charged upto 5:30 am. The only time I may get depletion is if Octopus decide to allocate extra hours before 11:30 pm in which case the batteries may get run down before then and so I would be paying at a peak hour rate for usage up to 11:30 pm. They will not allocate hours after 5:30 am since I have asked for the charge to be completed by 5:00 am. I normally charge from 20% to 80% which for my 40kWh Zoe needs about 24kWh over the 6 hours off peak and with a 7.3 kW charger only requires 4hrs max which would definitely be completed by 5:00 am.
@@barriebirch7956 so the video am making will fix all that and you can set it for a real time in the morning plus it will charge the batteries extra when car chargers
I will occasionally see if my Ohme charger will allocate some extra slots, if 1. Agile rates are currently low and 2. We need to have a washing blitz or do other high energy tasks concurrently.
That said, I also tend to do lots of small top ups (50 to 80%) overnight, giving the charger plenty of flexibility when to charge, so it can pick the cheaper slots. I also discharge my battery during saving sessions.
So I view this as give-and-take. I hope Octopus see it the same way.
Another option Octopus have is to reward/reinforce good behaviour though Octopoints. Carrot > Stick.
Surely the Kraken system is what octopus use to game the energy market. No one seems to be crying foul on this.
Kraken bids on market to ensure octopus gets best price it’s very different from hacking how your charger works to game unlimited cheap energy
@peterbee8892 you are spot on! @@NicolasRaimo you have said Octopus is rarely losing money... to be clear I don't think anyone is 'gaming unlimited cheap energy' from Kranken ... as these time slots ARE offered by KRANKEN not in kindness but only when Octopus still wins money, in other words customers pays for Octopus's imbalances grid costs. Google this 'It follows an Ofgem deep-dive into the issue which began last year amid concerns that some generators may be taking advantage of existing rules after balancing costs tripled in the winter of 2021/22, to over £1.5billion between November 2021 and February 2022, compared to average annual winter balancing costs of just under £500m for between 2017 and 2020. The record-breaking daily costs peaked above £60m on Wednesday 24 November 2021, driving up the ESO’s overall balancing costs, which are ultimately paid for by consumers, to £3.1bn that financial year. '
Is there anyway of finding out if/when any extra hours have been allocated so I can use them in the rest of the house? e.g. an API or Push Notifications?
Video on that soon!
Cool - nice one.
Octopus need to implement iftt and control it like that 7 hrs and that's it they could control smart plugs and every think you use
Plugged my car in this afternoon and intelligent paused the charge and set a schedule. I looked at my phone and hour later and found the charge had restarted at peak rates, charging to almost 80%. There is no way to see if this was at peak, or if Octopus had chosen to charge outside the normal cheap rate window.
This has happened to me, I am keeping an eye on it
Car api? Another reason I always say pick the charger if you can which car was it Tesla?
Same thing happened to me last night, (Tesla M3) had 7% left in it when I got home. I wanted it to be 80% this morning. All it had managed to put in was 66%, and that was by 8am. I've read in the faq's that this is all charged at 7.5p
Keep a note of it and cross check the date and time against the bill when it is generated. That will tell you.
Also Octopus often add in extra slots and you won't get a notification. If you start the app again the newer slots should show (sometimes I find killing the app and starting it again forces a refresh to show it).
@@NicolasRaimo BMW i3 and I have a zappi charger.
We all know that the First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be converted from one form to another so? If nothing ever comes for free how can this be true?
Is it OK to use IO GO for the 6 hours cheap energy, and NEVER plug the car in? I have a house where I can’t plug in, so I need to charge my EV elsewhere. My car is eligible for IO GO - so can I sign up for the tariff and just use the cheap overnight rate for my home storage heaters? The T&Cs don’t prohibit it.
I don’t think you’ll be able to use it, because although you have an eligible car and presumably a smart meter (?), part of the installation process of this tariff is a brief ‘test charge’ of your car.
So if you can’t do even that brief charge, then you probably can’t use this tariff …
But if in doubt, give them a call, they can only say ‘no’ ?
I was going to trail the Granny charger out of the window and over the pavement just for the test charge..
I'd say check with them first, and explain your situation fully (ie, what are the chances that you could get a 'proper' charger fitted sometime in the future) honesty is ALWAYS the best policy, - they can only say 'no' ... and if they say 'yes', then you're sorted !
And if they they say no, they you could always just be put on a 'normal' overnight tariff, which is only a little bit more, anyway ? @@williammykura2342
It’s in the terms you must do so many smart charges but curious why you’d need to deal if you’re not charging your EV? Other deals might be better… evnick.com/energy
@@NicolasRaimo I’m on Octopus Economy 7 for storage heaters which gives me 8.5 hours at 16p (11pm - 7:30am). IOG gives 6 hours at 7.5p and a cheaper day rate. So IOG looks better unless there are better rates out there..
I don’t think it would be wise to restrict the minimum charge allowed. That sounds a little controlling and won’t go down well.
I think the fairest thing for Octopus to do is tell you in the App, OK you need more than the overnight 6hr rate to add your desired amount of energy for your specified departure time, we’ll switch your charger on when it’s greenest but you’ll pay the full peak rate unless Octopus is offering “plunge” type sessions.
Also if it’s unplugged the rate calculation should reset to Zero and take into account how many charging hrs you’ve had within the 24hr period if you try to game on reconnection.
Can’t say fairer than that.
As far as i``m aware and was also told by an octopus employee ...the extra time slots are just solely for the car and thats it so you dont get an cheaper electric before the 23.30 timeslot and then obviously everything you use is at the cheaper rate until 05.30
Yes you do on octopus so says my bill
Hi, geat video and thanks for the info.
I keep having to accept the extended hours, let me explain why.
I have a home battery and when I plug in say at 10.00pm the charge plan might be from 11.30pm- 7.00am to get a 100% charge. So from 5.30am-7.00am I am on extended hours.
But the problem I have is that my home battery charge window is from is from 11.30pm-5.30am, however my battery will discharge from 5.30am-7.00am (wake up to a full car but a flat home battery)
So I set the app up to need car at 5.30am.
I don't like doing this.
I am in the middle of configuring a home made micro controller system to see if I can work within the variable octopus window and prevent the home battery discharge issue.
This tarrif is in beta
The last thing I want to do is upset octopus!. Lets hope Octopus find this comment.
I dont see an issue saying you need the car by 530am. As a backup you can have the car max charge % set so the car wont charge after 0530 anyway either because its actually full or the set limit. My car charge period yesterday was 2330-0000 and 0030 to 0800 but my car hit its 90% limit in the first session since itw as already at mid 80's%. So even if Octopus decided to charge my car between 0530 to 0800 nothing would have happened.
The only way to fix this is to only give the cheap rate to the car charging . It clearly says all smart charging is at the cheap rate. It doesn’t say you have to do it in the cheap rate period and if that was what they wanted we’d not have IOG.
What might be happening is more people that know how this can be exploited are doing it in their favour.
You know how it can be. Would you feel ashamed about doing it if wholesale prices were negative?
What Octopus Energy are doing with the cheap over night EV RATES they put the price up per KWH during the day (home use) and increase the daily charge rates, so what they are doing supplementing the cost on cheap night rates, you gain little or you end up worse off, so where are Octopus loosing out.
I sort of see the future where the 6 hours fixed will not be a thing, and they will definitely want the whole house benefitting, clearly evident by them working with inverter manufacturers offering support and API access to work with their various tariff. I wonder if the future might be such that yes, you get 4-6 hours a day of cheap rate, but they are not the same hours every day, more tied to the grid state.
100% this is the way it’s going
TLDR:They could prevent this "Gaming" by not changing the time of use tariff for all consumption but leaving it as it is and refunding the difference (22.5p)for what the EV draws or is calculated to draw i.e.
What happens now: if IOG schedules a charge for 9 - 9.30pm it sets the tariff for that half hour to 7.5p. If you have a 7kW charger the EV will consume 3.5kWh. If you game the system and have capacity you could consume another 10kWh and get 13.5kWh@ 7.5p. (£1.01)
They could do this: schedule a charge for 9 - 9.30pm but leave the tariff at (just under)30p. You consume as much as you want. With a 7kW charger only 3.5kWh can be consumed by the EV. So if you consume the same 10kWh more they charge 13.5kWh@30p (£4.05) but then credit you the difference (about 30p - 7.5p) for the EV 3.5kWh@22.5p (78.75p) so you end up paying £4.05 - 78.75p = £3.25
They will lose customers to OVO if they do that. As OVO already only credit the car usage and are cheaper than octopus.
That's exactly what OVO do, and with a cheaper rate
As mentioned in video that’s what ovo do with drive anytime it’s doubtful octopus will go this way
@@NicolasRaimo why is this doubtful? It solves the problem, others are doing it so it’s doable, they don’t have to kick out customers and it only really affects the gamers.
The fair use clause is clear (and doesnt't say that people will be kicked off the tariff). They just need to enforce it...
"Intelligent Octopus is subject to a fair use policy with a maximum of six hours of managed charging per 24 hours. Should your charging schedule request more than six hours per 24 hours, we reserve the right to charge any incremental usage above six hours at the day rate."
So do those six hours include the 23:30-5:30 block, or extra to it? If it's included anyway then there is little point in intelligent existing at all and we may as well just use timers on our cars/chargers.
And for me, it would mean I would never be able to get a full charge if my car is below 40% when I plug it in (and yes, I do need the 100% per the instructions for the car, this is actually encouraged) and the tariff loses a lot of it's USP.
@RichardBrooklyn The tariff is designed to give six hours of Octopus' choosing to charge your car at cheap rates. If that's not long enough to charge your car then they reserve the right to charge peak rate for any tme over six hours. It is not designed as a "Charge your car from flat to 100% at 7.5p/kWh" tariff.
The 2330-0530 block is irrelevant to the smart charging aspect but it does provide a useful period for load shifting. Think of it like the 4 hours for Go with 2 extra hours thrown in as a thank you for allowing Octopus to control the car when you need to charge it. For *most* people, even those with a home battery, the energy consumed in this period *outside of car charging* is fairly low when compared with the amount a car takes.
You have completely misunderstood how this works.
A few people gaming the system is not going to affect their last tax years profits of over net £200,000,000 that's like saying piracy games movies and music has a affect on the multi billion pounds industries if they changed intelligent people would go go to ovo or other ev only low tariffs
Bit naughty to encourage this?
Might ruin our good deal we have. Essentially of cheating becomes rampant they'll engineer the possibility out or put the pricing up.
100%
Who would ever want game a system!
Textbook tragedy of the commons
This guy has no idea what the Octopus business model is, what they are paying on energy markets or whether they lose when someone ‘games’ the system. They will be well aware of what is possible already