Hit INFINITE using Poker Concepts in Marvel Snap - Guide to the Math behind turn 6 decisions
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Guide on how to win more cubes in Marvel Snap using some Poker fundamentals. This math goes a LONG way to becoming successful in Marvel Snap
Wow, great video! I had heard these numbers thrown around on occasion in the Snap community but I didn't understand the math or concepts behind them. This is fascinating (and useful) stuff!
Thank you! I appreciate the support
this is a great concept but it took me a second to wrap my head around the numbers. maybe a visual of the trend of winning cubes vs losing cubes would help?
Thank you! Ill keep that in mind for the next one. Still learning this editing thing as well lol
Hi, you said "I don't think you should ever snap on turn 6" but from your Hela examples above, wouldn't you often want to snap on turn 6 to bluff when you feel like the opponent has a weak-middling hand that still bests you (when you didn't draw a hela for example). Unless he has a really strong last turn play, he would fold assuming he follows similar poker concepts
When snapping he only needs to win 37.5% of the time to break even, i dont think a lot of weak middling hands in his range would fall below this reliably enough to make it profitable. I also dont like bluffing often if ever, your average player in snap isnt thinking from a poker standpoint so making plays that expect them to play with a poker mindset is unreliable. I think bluffing in poker requires playing multiple hands against an opponent to become reliable and effective, so if something changes in the competitive scene, i stay away from it
@@SavageYetiGaming are you mainly talking about lower rank players? At higher infinite ranks it definitely feels like you meet opponents that you recognize much more often than not. And most people who get to the upper ranks generally know what they're doing as well.
@@confessions3366 youre right, you definitely see the same people at higher ranks. Yeah the advice im giving are more aimed at your average player in snap. For your average player, with 0 experience with poker or this sort of game, i generally dont think bluffing is a great idea. I dont think the players at higher infinite rank need my advice, theyre better than i am lol. And when i mentioned the competitive scene i was more talking about when the format changes to play repeated games in a match in one sitting bluffing becomes a much much more useful tool than it is climbing ladder
I don’t really understand how you could break even if you lose 75% of the time. If you lose a full game, you lose 2 cubes, if you win you win 2. That means if you only win 25% of the time you’ll end up down 4 cubes after 4 games, which is the same as retreating every game😮 oh I get it now!
Yep! Break even from the “i paid 1 cube to play” point. So obviously dont try and only win 25% of games, but when deciding to retreat or stay, you only need to win 25% to stay
Took me a minute to understand, I think you should give example over 4 games to express the fact that 25% means u win 1 out of the 4 games so cube wise it's lose 3x2=6 and win 1x2=2 so a net loss of 4 cubes which is the same as retreating 4 times. But nice video, I think most people don't retreat enough rather than the opposite but math wise it's correct !
Thank you! I do need to do an example video to go along with this
Great video! I think this basic concept of pot odds helps a lot on turn 6. If you want an idea for your next video: you could do one on fold equity and when it makes mathematical sense to snap early. You may have to speak about implied odds or even reverse implied odds as well if they snap back later
Ill keep those in mind! Thank you!
Yes that’s a great idea !
The early snap for me seems so odd. I never snap before the 3 locations are reveal because that’s way too random most of the times. Only misplays of my opponents i guess or Lucky outcomes..
@@locknload9590 I'm a fan of early snaps with strong hands, e.g forge brood silver surfer. Just think of the opposite scenario, opponent snaps turn 1 and your hand is mediocre or bad. If you want to continue, you're probably behind and paying an extra cube. Do you want to face a forged brood on turn 3? Or a 7 attack multiple man?
Just discover your channel
Great explanations! Love your math teaching
You earn another subscriber
Your other videos are amazing too
Thank you so much!
I was saying to my mrs, that I like snap because it’s a bit like poker…and maths.
Great video, very helpful thank you.
On to infinite!
Thank you! And good luck! I actually didnt know snap was like poker when i decided to start playing it, though I immediately saw it when playing the tutorial so it pulled me in right away lol
So to simplify locking one lane with storm or Prof x is very advantageous here since your equity on the scenario above will be 50% and even if your opponent snap it's still profitable on the long run?
Yes, sort of. Its more profitable in the long run compared to retreating each game. With a win rate if 50% its actually net break even for the entire game. Your goal in marvel snap is to steer your games into spots where you have >50% win rate. Under 50% and your decision to stay or not is mitigating cube loss
In other words the ratio is (pot - retreat cost) / (2 x pot) ?
Meaning 7/16 = 44% if both players snap
Your math is correct, however once you snap you commit the second cube, when your opponent snaps behind you your decision is 6/16 or 37%. Also if you are snapping after your opponent on turn 6, it is 44%, however if you are the one snapping, your equity goal should be 50% as you are looking to be profitable for the entire game not just in that specific decision. Ill go over this in my next video, hard to explain over a comment
Exactly but they make it sound like they designed the game for the decks they come up with is gonna give you the victory everytime
They as in Second Dinner?
You had me at math
Lol thanks! I like seeing the numbers behind games too
Interesting. Could you give some more examples?
Sure! Maybe i can record some of my gameplay and show some live examples
I don't really get how a 50/50 chance of winning a no-snap game over time will be profitable. If it's a 50/50 game you would assume both players would have the same strategy of not retreating, and if you win 50% of the time you will gain and lose 2 cubes an equal amount of times. How would this be a net gain?
Its not a net gain from the standpoint of the entire game. So youre right there. But what its saying is that instead of retreating and guaranteeing net of -1, you have the opportunity to only lose 50% to climb ranks. But if your equity is > pot odds and
@@SavageYetiGaming I think that it will require an extreme amount of experience to be able to calculate your odds correctly within the allotted time you have each turn though :p, but i guess the same goes for poker!
I disagree to an extent. There are just two pot odds percentages you have to memorize. As far as calculating equity, the idea is just to get a rough idea of the cards your opponent can play, how many you beat, convert to a percentage and make a decision based on what that is. Though yes with poker, you do have a lot more time to do the math
Great vid man, just subbed. I've been thinking about making a vid about this on my channel but you're way smarter than i am when it comes to pot odds lol. I live in Vegas and love poker but never got into pot odds and all the math, but I see a ton of similarities with Marvel Snap.
You broke it down better than I've seen from a lot of poker players (or maybe it makes more sense with Snap). I'd legit love a series of vids from you where you just play games and walk the viewer through the odds. Maybe like a beginner, medium, and advance series. That could give you a ton of content, and I know I'd be watching every vid lol.
Going to share your vid with my subs and on reddit
Oh man! Thank you so much! I appreciate it. Idk if you noticed but you were also my 100th sub so this comment with it just made my day. I do want to do more gameplay videos where i talk through my thought process on plays and how odds affect my decisions. Ive also thought about doing a series where i watch replays and pause on key decisions so i can go in depth on what i think about. And i just saw your community post as well so thanks for the share. Keep in touch, maybe we can do some type of collaboration in the future.
Really fascinating! Never thought about it in terms of pot odds before. Would love to hear more about it if you have additional thoughts or examples.
Thank you! Im going to try and put out some gameplay where i can pause and talk about some live examples. Im also going to work through the math on when snapping makes sense and when it doesnt. Thanks again!
@@SavageYetiGaming sounds good!
+sub
Thank you!
Thanks for the video, it’s really interesting!
Here’s how I do to get infinite consistently:
- Play a deck you’ve mastered (you win more than lose). Sounds obvious but it’s important to be competitive.
- Only snap when you know you’ll win and opponent believes they can win. Do the math each turn, predict how your position will be in the following turns.
- leave bad matches. District X, dream dimension, any other location that lowers your chances, just donate a cube a leave.
And most importantly:
- Never gamble!!! I collect cubes from people who do.
Good luck on ladder.
Thank you! And my problem is the never gambling part. Sometimes you just have to see! Lol
people tilt way too much on snap which is great for people who understand this GTO concepts and just grind it out steadily. Nice of you to put n the effort for the donks out there.
Lol yep! While marvel snap is a much much simpler version of poker, i think all players should be aware of the basic concepts to get them at minimum thinking differently about the game. Tho to be fair, if i could manage tilt better id probably still be playing poker lol
Really cool video. I come from a data science background but have never been into games like poker. According to this logic, most of the time you will leave on an 8 cube game then right? Unless you are in a dominating position.
Not necessary. If you both snap before turn 6, by turn 6, the math is the same. Still 25%. Since you are already in for 4, cost 4 more to win 8+4, 4/12. That being said, it is more cubes at stake so you may want to consider playing safe.
Oh this is a very good video. Thanks for actually breaking these down into their fundamentals. I know now I need to stay in more often.
Is there any specific resource you would recommend looking up if I want to learn more about this?
Honestly, i would recommend a book called harrington on cash games. This is what i learned from. Not too sure about youtubers who break down the fundamentals. Doug Polk was who i used to watch but im not sure how much he does of it now.
Thanks for putting my thoughts I already had into words. Basically I was thinking about what my expected value for retreating or not retreating would be. In a 50:50 odds scenario your expected value when retreating is always loosing your cubes but if you don't retreat and continue the expected value is 0. That helped me to grasp the concept better
Youre welcome! Glad you liked it
So great to find this video! I've applied skills from my poker-playing days (e.g. pot odds) to SNAP and I attribute reaching ranked level 131 to my understanding and application of pot odds.
Thats good to hear! Im a fan of most card games but snap was especially interesting because of its similarities to poker. I love it!
@@SavageYetiGaming Yeah! It'll be interesting to see what other poker concepts pop out of Battle Mode.
I would love more of this kind of videos. You have a new subscriber!
Working on another one! Thank you!
Wonderful guide, thanks
Thank you!
Sent over here by Bynx and got to give props to sound advice on the Equity/Odds. Take my sub :)
Thank you! Did bynx repost me or something?
@@SavageYetiGaming Someone mentioned your video in his chat and he agreed that it was really good advice and then put up a link to your video mid stream to suggest more people show some love.
Oh wow thats awesome. Glad people are seeing the video.
@@SavageYetiGaming Keep up the good content my man, always happy to see someone succeed in life!
Fantastic video. Love more on this, thanks!
Thank you! Ive got another video on why i generally avoid snapping on turn 6 coming this weekend
@@SavageYetiGaming awesome - can’t wait! Stakes, pot odd, equity, reads, ranges all fit so well with SNAP - I think this is why I like it so much!
Will you please do a video entirely about why never to snap on turn 6? When SHOULD you snap?
One argument I've seen is that snapping on turn 6 makes your opponent more likely to retreat, which costs you cards. But then again, that's also why it can be a useful bluff in some situations.
Yep i can do that!
This is the main argument. I can explain further my thought process in the video but i wanted to note here, i dont like bluffing too much because with bet sizing in snap, your opponent is getting good pot odds most of the time, on turn 6, hes getting 37.5% which is very easy to have higher equity in a game like this. In poker, you can bet the pot or even overbet in order to put your opponent in a tough decision.
you're only getting called by hands that beat you, and chasing away hands that you could have beat
@@brofst this is 100% the main reason. This isnt to say there arent good spots to snap on 6 but they are much more rare than people realize
Thx for the help.
Youre welcome! Hope it all made sense to everyone lol
These are totally new concepts for me. Thanks!
Youre welcome!
One reason this game is so good Its like Texas Hold'em!. Are you the same Yeti that used to stream Marvel Heroes arpg? If so we know each other well.
Thats what drew me to it! And no im not the same yeti unfortunately :/
Nice video but it won’t work. Reason for this is yes everyone is playing decks for youtube and snap websites. What people don’t know is you can change the out come depending on cards. Meaning I can win on turn 3 before you get to turn 6. The time you snap it’s over. Or I can play turn 4 to 5 win before 6. Also I can win on turn 6. Depending what in the deck. I learned snapping is a art but not like poker more advanced seeing cards can throw a game at any turn depending on one secret that no one tells anyone. Still like the video still I can’t get over people copying other people decks it makes it to easy to for a og card builder to tell how to play on right terms. Soon decks will get more interesting. As of right now everyone is one siding the deck instead of diverse decks. Still fun.
I get what youre saying but thats why this method should be used on turn 6 decision making. Its easy to predict what cards people will play on turn 6 especially when you get to high level play. People play the best decks and the best decks have certain goals.
Whats the secret?
Im a mid tier 3 player and am still learning this game. I noticed early a lot of players play “made” decks.
I play them to learn concepts. When im sitting down to play for 30 min or more I tend to play decks I made myself. I like to have 2-3 win conditions and not be obvious with where I’m going by turn 6. I like to keep 2 cards that can combat my opponents turn 6 and I only snap on turn 4 or 5 if Im confident.
Why is it 1/(1+3) and 3/(3+5) instead of 1/(1+2) and 3/(3+4)?
You’re only winning 2 and 4 cubes.
I believe the percentages are 33% and 43%. Still better than 50% so your message is still valid.
Its those values because you are winning the cube back that you have already lost as well.
@@SavageYetiGaming I’m pretty sure you’re double counting it. The 2 and 4 already includes the committed cube. It’s not a pot like in poker.
edit: I am wrong… I wasn’t considering the guaranteed loss that is incurred by the alternative of retreating
@Nathan look at it this way: If you retreat four times you're going to lose 4 cubes. If you stay you're going to lose 2 cubes 3 times and win 2 cubes once, which is also a net loss of 4 cubes. So the 25% break even is correct.
@@TimTim3000 That makes it so clear. Thank you so much!
@@nathanmays7926 You're welcome. I was a little confused too by how he calculated it, but when I went through the above method to check the math it made sense.
If you get your combo early SNAP, if the opponent loses a win condition SNAP. If you don't know don't SNAP until after turn 6 begins. You can always SNAP until the last card is played through the animation. If you are fast you can always get an extra cube at least over a hundred games that extra cube adds up to infinite.
Yep! Ill have a video soon on my ideas on when and when not to snap soon