How Role Playing Games Forged Their Identity
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มี.ค. 2024
- Join Black Lodge Games for a discussion of the origins of the TTRPG hobby through the lens of the incredible book, "The Elusive Shift" by Jon Peterson.
Join our community over at blacklodgegames.locals.com with promo code MIDWIT for a free month. You get access to our videos 24-36 hours prior to release on TH-cam, discussions with our community, and much more!
#dungeonsanddragons #wargaming #gygax #garygygax #dnd5e - เกม
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It seems my comment for you regarding Elusive Shift was sabotaged by an erroneous colon. Apologies for the confusion.
That our conversation as a set of hobbyists hasn't gotten beyond this "first year of play" level of discovery and opinion is a function of time (only 50 years) and ease of interaction with the right minds to further (rather than stunt) useful ideas and then share them, is sad but also a mark of how generations allow things they love to die out or be lost for lack of communication.
Since the adoption of social media, we have had the capacity as RPG players to bridge all of those gaps and address failures to communicate cross-generationally, but so far we still keep having that same set of RPG: Year-One conversations - not as an appetizer for the influx of newcomers, but as the main course of the current All You Can Eat 24hr Buffet hobby. Except, I hope, however, that if nowhere else, there is useful conversation and more progress being made at tables in homes, and other places where interested players gather to feast on imagination.
I'm glad all that Critical Role slander money got you a studio on the Death Star.
It's nice to see something good come out of Candela Obscura.
Modern theater kids: “I’m gonna really get into character with Groznog the Barbarian.”
70s theater kids: “I am Groznog the Barbarian. This is my life now.”
In the 70's and 80's our particular groups played everything that came out. We all loved 1st ed D&D, but we played Traveller, RuneQuest, Tunnels and Trolls, CarWars, Space 1889, Recon, Palladium RPG's whatever came around we tried out. A lot of people these days only play one RPG... thats weird to me... why not play both D&D and Pathfinder. I really think the game companies themselves are using jedi-mind-tricks in their communities of this "you only play one" mentality as a form of economic self preservation.
I'm the same way. I play several different campaigns in different systems and just cycle through them (if they're good enough to keep). I never understood the idea of only playing one system.
I think there’s a lot of factors.
A part of it is when a niche hobby gets exposed to pop culture at large, the biggest names are usually the ones come up first. Before I started really looking into miniature war gaming, if you brought it up, I would have replied with ,”oh, you mean Warhammer?” I didn’t know of games like Xenos Rampant and Frostgrave were a thing.
Another part of it is with things like video games, streaming, and social media, people have a lot more competition for there attention these days.
I disagree with you. It has nothing to do with the game companies. People like D&D because you don't have to role-play and can mindlessly go into a dungeon and kill things. That's it's appeal. Reality is there are a lot less nerds than you think in this hobby.
You'd be happy to know some of us still keep the tradition alive. I may have only been born in the 90s, but I too prefer to play and try as many games as possible. In fact, my brother (18) and I have recently begun a campaign where we play 0e/OD&D for the granular man-to-man stuff, and switch back-and-forth between Chainmail and OPR Age of Fantasy for the Skirmish/Wargame elements. Hell, we've even thrown a bit of our own game we're working on in there. There's room for more than just one game at any table--and in fact, I think all games can be made more enjoyable by cribbing elements from all the games you love and playing them simultaneously.
I think when a game tries to be this "catch-all/do-all" game, that's when problems arise and it really narrows peoples' scopes.
The jump in presentation, both in terms of visuals and audio, flowing conversation is nothing short of astounding. You two are truly talented. Thank you!
Wow, thank you!
"Adjacent to two ferns"
Great discussion and nice studio!
Y'all are a breath of fresh air in the RPG community. So glad to have such thoughtful voices to ruminate on and elevate the game's history in a manner that it deserves.
More to come! Share it if you think others would be interested
Classy-looking spot, my fellows.
I first played D&D in '79 at the age of ten. I was heavily into gaming by '82ish. There WAS a golden age, I would argue, not because of the games but rather the players. We were excited--we bought every game we could get our hands on--took them apart, mashed-them up, and tried every idea that popped into our heads. We played RPGs, war games, board games, we mixed them together. We fused Role Master and Wooden Ships & Iron Men because no one had a pirate game yet. "Hey what if we did this with Harpoon and did a post-apocalypse naval game!?!" It authentically was a different time and I miss it.
As to "Diplomacy." People still play it--people still play it by mail and I highly recommend you guys try it. It's hard to say exactly what it is; calling it a strategy game really doesn't do it justice. I haven't encountered it’s like again. And play it by mail (email will work). There's something about the slow-burn, move and wait to see of it that really is captivating and unique if it clicks for you--it won't with everyone--that nothing else has even attempted since.
I think WE, the players and GMs, have our Golden Ages. I do not believe the hobby has had one as a whole. But in some respects, I have had more than one Golden Age, as there have been high and low points.
My first-ever game of D&D was a low point, and I wouldn't say I liked it. The GM told me it was like the games we played in a friend's back garden. It was not; the rules were annoying, and three of my characters died in two hours. I was 11.
My second game of D&D was amazing. The GM crafted a world, dug deep, and made us feel. I was 12. It was only eight or nine months later. Perhaps I was ready.
My first time as a GM was amazing. I ran Warhammer FRP 1st Edition, "The Enemy Within". I went off book so quickly and just made things up. It worked. I even had two of the "cool kids" from school play.
There was then a long lull. Well, ok, two years. It felt long, though.
It was followed by what I call "The Discovery Age". I discovered Cthulhu, Pendragon, Cyberpunk, Shadworun, and Chivalry & Sorcery. It was followed by "The Angst Age", which started when we caught "the World of Darkness" virus. Don't get me wrong, we loved that age, too; I look back and wonder why I enjoyed roleplaying my inner angst. It may be what we Gen Xers did in our twenties.
There was then a down period, a toxic group, followed by a needed rest from RPGs....
I was dragged back in by discovering a new group. I had found 7th Sea, a game that wanted me to improvise. I went with it. It then followed with "New World of Darkness", but this time, I used it to bend people's brains and make them live their characters. Plus, I needed to get something out of my head.
I am now in the Social Gaming / Convention Gaming Age. I can play and discover new games almost every other month. I have a regular group that understands me. The sessions are shorter, but I get to experiment more often.
So...all very different experiences, but all golden ages of their own.
I look forward to more.
This is peak. I'm relatively new to roleplaying (began almost 4 years ago) and frankly, considering the average level of discussion in the TTRPG scene, it's good to have you around elevating the game. Keep up the good shit fellas
Has someone who is around role-playing games in the 70s I can assure you you are correct the level of conversation was much better back then. Going to conventions was actually fun, you met people who are excited and interested about role playing and everybody had new ideas. That's not a criticism so much of today, that's just part of the process of something being new and then maturing.
I like letting my players roll dice all the time even the damage they take. If they are trying to perform certain actions I make them roll in a tower so they can't see the results. I found when I do that they start seconds guessing themselves and not sure how to proceed. It's fun when their actions of the unknown rolls effect their character actions which in turn and start drawing attentions to themselves.
"We like World of Darkness right?"
"Yeah."
"So how about we make our studio look like it's IN the World of Darkness?"
"I'm so in dude."
Glad to see you two taking off. It seems you're doing everything right. I would definitely suggest cutting this podcast up into WAY more videos and/or shorts and/or tik toks though. Seen you did one so far. Do at least 9 more to get a really good feel for how that performs. Here's hoping to you two blowing the F--K UP!!!! :)
Thank you!
I believe that in my Warhammer fantasy roleplay 2e campaign, my group and I managed to combine mechanics and story very well. You simply need to objectively analyze what is best for the moment, flexibility is the key.
Ginger Fraiser looks even more like Fraiser in the new studio doing his radio show. Love the new set guys.
I do feel we are coming full circle since generational discussions repeat.
When I started playing in 1980 it was like I unlocked a whole new world. I had grown up playing tabletop wargames with my cousins (Avalon Hill Bookcase Games, Third Reich, Squad Leader, etc.) returning from college an older cousin introduced me to AD&D and Gamma World. Once I started diving into the community there was so much to chose from; various fantasy games ; the whole TSR line; Boothill, Star Frontiers, Top Secret.. Lords of Creation, Champions, Rifts, Marvel Superheros, Villains and Vigilantes, and the games just kept coming.. it seemed like every year we had a new game on the shelf to try... it was a Renaissance Era...
Things quieted down and some games faded.. then there was the whole resurgence for us with White Wolf, and Cyberpunk... someone was trying something different. It was great.
Now it seems like with the fallout from WOTC; we have given birth to a new Renaissance.. people are again publishing left and right content of varying quality...alot of it is different shades of the same black... but there are some diamonds in the rough.. but there are choices in what to play again that feel new.
I do feel like a huge section of those "younger than me" are simply "the Masses" that Hasbro dumbed down content for.. but then am inspired by podcasts/videos such as this and this new group of players who have the mixture of nerd respect for the hobby that gives me hope for our future.
Escapism vs Activism! Could be another good topic.
Now yall need a 3rd member, buff Danny DeVito
This is MUCH more fascinating than I expected it to be. Holy shit 😂 People were RPing in the 1800s? That's fucking wild!
Share with people you think would be interested!
Love your work fellas. I am running a more simulationist game (Cyberpunk Red) and a more OSR style game (DCC). Red is giving the greater roleplay but there is something to be said for the optional roleplay buy-in of a dungeon game. My DCC game is with all new players and I can see them acclimatizing to RP rather than being thrown in the deep end and bouncing off. It's worth considering the brand-new player experience as something to talk about in a future episode.
Confession: I have a short attention span. I hate long videos. (It's why I keep mine short). I usually turn them off once I get a gist of the opinion. Anyway, I listened to the entire hour. This was fascinating. Great convo guys. I'm gonna pick this book up. I think it would be cool to see the intellectual conversation going on during the Hickman Revolution. Cheers.
Great discussion. I had no idea this was a Jon Peterson book.
Awesome chat🙏
Thanks!
Boys are hustlin'! Good shit, raising the bar for quality RPG discussion.
I do hope you guys keep doing the livestreams alongside these even though it's a lot of work. I still enjoy the laidback, "shooting the shit" style of discussion as well as this.
Livestreams will continue every week
@@blacklodgegamesGood shit
Great convo, gents. I think the “podcast” format is the best. So glad you read it & are spreading the word. Think of how much better RPG design would be if books like this one were required reading. We owe a lot to Peterson.
Re: Eisen, this is where we should have a long pod convo together.
Yes we should have a conversation on the live stream soon. We have a few other guests lined up in the near future but I will reach out to you soon.
Had to look up the meaning of TU NE CEDE MALIS: you should not give in to evils, but proceed ever more boldly against them. Hat Tip!
I tell people it means live laugh love
@@blacklodgegames Fuckin Legend.
I have listened to this 3 times, going on four. This discussion is brilliant. Love it. Great work gentlemen. Absolute pleasure to hear intelligent AND intellectual conversation. I miss the days when this could be achieved by simply conversing with neighbors.
Thanks man
@@blacklodgegames , non, monsieurs. Thank YOU.
RED WIZARD NEEDS MAGNESIUM BADLY!
A bit of Shake and bake?
I dig the new set boys!
Thanks!
You've moved to the Death Star.
Nice digs! Thanks for the book suggestion, it's on my list to-read.
It's very good
DM: *fudges dice rolls so I don't die*|
Me: "I stab the priestess of Chauntaya in the eye and throw a chair at her husband. I look at the guards, close my eyes, and show them my neck."
I like the idea of a game toolkit. It lets each table play the way they want to play.
I actually don't really like it for core rules. If I am paying someone for a game, I want the game they designed, not instructions for making my own, though I see the appeal for others.
@@blacklodgegames I think of it like burgers and pizza. I like to pick my toppings and not take what the kid in the back throws on top of it. The author's favorite mechanic is usually polarizing and completely unnecessary crunch that will make half the players not want to play the game. I can think of two games off the top of my head that would be better and more popular if an editor had killed the author's favorite child.
I can think of a couple of games that had to have something that is polarizing to get the licensed IP. Color Magic in Warhammer 2e is perhaps one of the dumbest, laziest, and stupidest concepts for magic you could come up with. The authors and publisher had to go with that idea to get the IP license because Games Workshop would not license the IP without it.
Great video. Really liked a lot of the ideas here. Might pick this book up. One thing I will say is that LARP seems to do character immersion better than ttrpgs, but I think ttrpgs do player agency better. Maybe character agency is a better term though.
Agree, I think I have misjudged the LARP people and also agree that character agency is the better term.
Awesome set up boys. I gotta get in studio some day, lol.
Come to Austin and we will make it happen
I was playing in the 70s, but I'm still dumb. 😂
Many such cases!
Was this filmed on a sci-fi movie set? Nice
cyberpunk!
Yes, everything was better in the 70's and to an extent the 80's.
Book just arrived; I'm going to start reading it tomorrow. You guys know the author is on X, and he has a blogspot, right? Maybe you could ask him for an interview.
Prolly not gonna watch the video but you get a like just for the thumbnail and the new setup
This was amazing
More to come!
A full hour of black lodge games! Hype!
Retvrn. I sense some hidden power levels here, good stuff.
Hellaswag studio bros. Make sure to charge appropriately for your Wendy's ad read.
Btw, can you guys do more chronicles of darkness videos? Thanks to your videos I became very interested in vampire requiem and other games like werewolf the forsaken and hunter the vigil. There is little material on TH-cam about NewWoD/CoD and it would be nice to see more.
We are going to get to Chronicles at some point, for sure. Requiem is one of Ginger Fraiser's favorite games of all time
While I find both your efforts to define RPGs laudable and I agree with your assessment that the through-line is immersion, I have an inconvenient truth for you. In your efforts to even compare against Wargames, I suggest you ping that community to see what the very definition of Wargame is. What is or isn’t a Wargame? I think you will find the same vicious arguments occurring in that space as well. 😂
i agree with character immersion as the goal for the player - for the GM who has to do more the goal should be being expressive.
Not sure I agree. It's definitely a different experience being GM but I still get the immersive experience while running the game. I also think being expressive is a good in itself as it will help create that authenticity but for me that comes from playing the NPCs like I would a pc
being expresive is being selective. a good GM with a good system should be able to move the focus from what helps express what he has to say about the game and give theamtic meaning to the plot and characterization to create a cohesive narrative. (by narrative i mean the porpuseful integration of plot, theme and characters)@@blacklodgegames
playing multiple NPCs is a lot different than playing a single PC. the mental whiplash from switching so often is really jarring. also the GM needs to play as the enviorment, the narrator and judge. its its own thing@@blacklodgegames
just got the book
Taking notes on points
Starting at 15:OO.
A sociology prof was doing research for the University with rotating group of 12 characters, in 83,
Theater kids were not power gamers and I wasn't a power gamer but you might say I was a poor player at power gamer, a power gamer wanna be.
I had played a lot of wargaming, and that tempered my power gamer sense. Other kids I knew were, the plus 25 god slaying axe of magic immunity.
I remember threading through a lot of that...all in one game often. Psycho drama, pure wargame, dm vs. player...all kinda here and there in one session and confusing.
The tournament modules were a surprise hit. We were encouraged to imitate and draw and map and plug in monsters and make a setting.
You could make a game and many systems spun off and were already spun off, but after 1e it got really creative burst.
The making the game yourself now ties what was sold, character sheets, books, art supplies. This primed the pump for later online and computer games settings.
25:00
One of the 3.0 development was boxed text. Gygax wrote floridly of things on the room but later boxed text created important heads up, had dramatic entry, set mood, provided some minimum exposition, evoked a general scene to the players, and other functions, but its another demand on world creation.
The players would complain to me about that. I rarely did, the wargamer ethos. Later the player read the "rules for wargaming..." preamble, me and the DM as playing that way instead of the way he was accustomed too, the power gamer ascendency.
If it is rather fatalistic and not god slaying, there is more drama and you tend to make what you can of roleplaying, rather than leaping into every risk.
Regulates speech. We used to role play to some extant playing Risk. Old Civilization you had to haggle. It frames speech and provides rules on who speaks.
Character immersion? I would get immersed in novels. Some game settings are borderline theater, like Paranoia. The whole of it has satire as well, mock games.
Simulation is the evocation of images and sounds into players and participants heads. It doesn't matter if you are a character, its purely the images and the world, as if you are a POV. Its like first person narrative. Yet, its team play too, if you are all on the same map/page/imagery. This was an early problem, what things looked like to each player because often, even up to day, people are poor at the visualization.
It might be the increase in general by computer exercise of imagery, it might be at an higher capacity now though.
The art is perhaps over cherished because it was the common image all sought, for with a clear conventionalized space, everyone on the same page, our actions turned less into mother may I and more active voice, self commanding in present tense.
Mother may I is the critique of battle times for high level feat oriented systems. I found 3.0 ended about 10 level, incidentally affirming the OD&D epic levels of 9th ala Temple of the Frog.
It was a good angle, blaming the feat inflation first on Unearthed Arcana. The power gamers took Deities and Demi Gods as a monster manual.
47:00
Therapeutic Uses. That is what the Sociology Prof said about the game back in 83 (85?). Media was all about then...Conan, Frazetta, etc.
Peterson is an excellent scholar. A few podcasts could be devoted to Playing At The World, if just reading passages and commentary?
TTRPG's are a legible advance in simulation. You might say it began at wargames but painting, illustration, even books like "The Faerie Queen", and Arthurian Romance all over the continent in general you might also include as simulation. Printing methods peaked to create quite a world of posters.
I once ran a campaign where all the players were halflings or hobbits whatever. They became high-level criminals with matching high bounties. The amount of damage they did to my setting justified a lot of Hobbit torture. It was amazing.
Ooh this looks good
Didn't realize Darth Vader was a ginger and a DnD fan
Vader and Palpatine
“10 tips to make your D&D sessions better” aka, “10 coping excuses as to why my sessions being shit is not my fault.”
Sadly, the further we get to the origins of RPGs, the more people can claim, "Gary didn't play that way," or say, "The rules said this..." and there will be no one from that era to correct them.
Fancy-schmancy!
Thanks doc! You funded this!
I want to get paid to hang out with my friends.
Start a TH-cam channel
We all really know PDM from dungeoncraft is the one who received the tablets....even though he claims no such thing exists, and we also know you two are the ones on the council of Carthage trying to vote in all the stories to put in the "book",
Saw a Alex Jones documentary about it
The truth will not be suppressed!
This is straight up Chris Williamson's set. Or at least the space he's recorded in. Weird.
Same studio.
@@blacklodgegamesLooks primo, for sure.
Would love if you made an honest and detailed review of Powered by the apocalypse system and Dungeon World =)
Not familiar with dungeon world. Yung Steve has experience with PbtA games though, so me may do that down the line. I don't think people who like PbtA will like what we have to say though as our disagreement is mostly with the core foundations of narrativism.
@@blacklodgegames Your disagreement with that is what I would love to hear! Most on YT only give praise and dare not say otherwise. Would love to watch your take.
@@InqGraves We will consider it but it won't be for quite a while.
Can someone make a discord or subreddit for black lodge games?
blacklodgegames.locals.com
Use promo code MIDWIT for a free month
I liked the old you better
as a writer i don't really buy "genre", there is a story you want to tell and calling something a genre is a shortcut of doing it. 10 out of 10 times you are better off doing a story on your terms instead of predetermined norms and cemented tropes.
I think there is a big difference between super heros and chick flicks. The categories are distinct
@@blacklodgegames there are but those are subject matter, its a film about a superhero or a film about a woman falling in love. (and the only other thing they come with are tropes overused to being cliches)
genres classically are things like Tragedy, comedy, satire, tragicomedy, which can have a any subject matter but have no set tropes.
when people talk about genres they mean a set of tropes.