People are forgetting the 2nd to last scene of the movie/show. When Chava and Fyedka show up to say goodbye... Tevye says "God be with you" showing a small, but incredibly significant sign of compassion for her.
Sweet Crimson not let bygones be bygones. Though he still loves her, he can’t forgive her for her action. But he still showed her his love for her by saying god be with you
@@huydang5955 I always thought about that too. when I first saw this as a kid, being the grandson and great nephew of 5 ww2 veterans. I was well versed in ww2 events because whenever they got together a large part of the conversation always focused on the war. It's stayed with them.
@@huydang5955 Yeah well, whether you die by getting bitten by the dog or the cat makes no difference, being killed by communists or nazi's makes no difference, you were killed for your identity.......
I just realized that Tevye's dairy cart serves as a reference for the progression of the story. At first, his horse is pulling the cart while he walks along side. His burden is light. He then takes the place of the horse when it's injured, pulling the cart himself but the lame horse still walks beside him. His burden is moderate. Then he's pulling the cart on his own with no horse present. Still a moderate burden but he's lost something important to him along the way. Then, he isn't able to pull anymore so he's pushing the cart from behind, the cart is oriented in the opposite direction it should be traveling, but still with the rope around his shoulder for added support. His burden is heavy. Then at 1:24 he slowly lifts the cart and begins pushing forward again with no rope for support. The weight of the burden is almost unbearable.
Not just reference but symbolism to his plight, I always view it similar but not identical to the themes involved with Hemmingway's Old Man and The Sea, where as the old man struggle with the fish represent defeat, loss, misfortune, weary, and suffering that life can bring. Tevye's internal struggles and burdens are presented a bit different but the cart is a physical representation of the same idea as the struggle with the fish. This moment in the movie could be compared to the destruction of the fish and the old man finally breaking as a result of his loss. Tevye has stopped the cart and imagines this scene, and rejects Chava because he has finally been broken. The difference in themes between the two stories being that Hemmingway shows a struggle between nature as a giving and taking away force and that man's determination to live life is by what he is defined. Fiddler on the Roof defines Tevye not just by his determination but by how he chooses to love and fulfill that love in his daughter's lives, by giving, forgiving and choosing to rebuild.
Also after the pogrom at the wedding feast the Russian guy says "Orders are orders. You understand." having two meanings. One is of course that, despite Constable liking Tevye, Constable must obey the order of his superior. But we could also see this sentence as a message from God to Tevye as Tevye keeps asking God questions throughout the film. "Orders are orders" could mean that there are certain rules to follow (tradition) and if you break those rules (orders) then there will be consequences. We see this with every daughter breaking tradition and each daughter breaks the tradition a little further so the consequences get worse too. The first breaking of the tradition leads to a pogrom on the wedding of the first daughter. The second leads to the second daughter going to the Siberian gulag. The third leads to Chava going to Krakow, Poland, and we all know what happened in Poland in the 1940s (extermination camps). "Orders are orders. You understand." And of course marriage according to Judaism can only be within the own faith so breaking that order is even worse than the breaking of tradition.
This is one of the most powerful parts of the film. The song and dance number are especially poignant in how they show Chava dancing with her mother, then with her older sisters to symbolize her growth into womanhood. Then each of the sisters dances off with their partners, and she is placed between the fiddler and the man she loves, making a choice on love vs tradition. So simple, yet so effective.
JimmySteller excellent interpretation Jimmy, it is exactly as you say. It is without doubt one of the most beautiful yet harrowing scenes in cinema. It draws you to it, but is hard to watch. A terrible beauty.
Lois Lopez I think maybe the movie has a different idea on how this plays out. It’s not about a girl being able to marry who she loves, but about a man giving up his love for God and his people to the point where she is asking him to give up everything that makes him who he is. And not only will he not do it, he knows he will no longer be the man he was if he bends that far.
KingIceHunter I'm not saying Tevye should give up who he is, but he has to realize his daughter is grown. I don't agree with him telling his wife that Chava is dead to them and that they'll forget her. It's wrong to just write off your child because she didn't live the way you wanted. I don't understand how he could just turn his back on her.
For those who criticize Tevye, you should understand that he was probably the most progressive person among the Jews of Anatevka. He allowed his eldest daughter to cause him to break a bargain made with the butcher, which was absolutely scandalous. He allowed his second daughter to dictate her marriage to HIM, again...beyond comprehension. These 2 violations of Ashkenazi Jewish tradition were absolutely revolutionary. How could he be expected to yield to a complete repudiation of his very identity? Remember what it was to be an Eastern European Jew. To be hated and despised by the government, the majority of the people, to be forbidden from holding public office, to be subject to pogroms, evictions, expulsions. How easy would it be to disavow your religion, your culture under those circumstances and have an easier life? The fortitude and dedication to who you are under such oppression is not to be taken lightly or dismissed out of hand. Why then should anyone expect that for the love of his daughter would he cast that aside? You shouldn’t. Nor should you be surprised that he wouldn’t.
@@walleras Wisdom is proven by the results of the actions; not by the number of people that "respect" a person; that is a popularity contest and while religious people have confused these concepts for eons, they are very different. Losing all contact forever with one of the most important people in your life because of (entirely) unsubstantiated beliefs is foolish, period. Fairy tales are fairy tales no matter how long they have been around, who wrote them or how many people believe them.
In all the other scenes where Tevye gives his blessing, he sees Hodel and Tzietel's eyes and sees how much they're in love. In this scene, Tevye only sees Chava in silhouette :(
@@paulinotou I don't think it has anything to do with that tbh. Each other respective husband went with his daughter for their blessing. This was under his nose with no such grouping. She was alone, if her husband joined her in the begging, perhaps he'd see how happy they were.
@@shortstuff780 That was the pattern I got from the whole thing. His eldest asked for marraige without his permission, yet she still married a local traditional orthodox Jew. His 2nd did the same except it was with a liberal less traditional Jew. The 3rd daughter straight up didn't marry a Jew. I think that was the premise of "If I bend that far, Ill break". He already bended his beliefs to accept his daughters but this was the one that was beyond what he knew he could handle.
When I saw this scene the first time I thought I was going to puke because I actually felt Tevye's agony. Even knowing this is a work of fiction, and these are actors, Topol really brings out the raw emotion, and I somehow internalized it - my stomach was churning and my heart racing and aching, and I felt like a stone was on my chest. Excellent acting here, but it is painful to watch.
I've watched this movie so many times that I've lost count, (starting when I was about 11 and I'm 63..) and this scene is utterly heartbreaking. Now that I have grown kids it's even more powerful. Once I saw it from the daughter's perspective and now I see it from the parent's.. You're right, it really is painful to watch.
Hodel's line "Oh what a melancholy choice this is, Wanting home, wanting him. Closing my heart to every hope but his," can equally apply to Chava. Both sisters choose to follow the man they love, even when it means giving up everything else. The difference being of course that Tevye can accept it more easily in Hodel's case.
Yes, very true. The story realistically warms Tevye up to these unorthodox matches. The story of being a parent, making babies who become independent humans.
i used to watch this with my father when i was much younger, at the time i didn't understand all of the movie, but recently i wanted to watch parts of it and with age this is not as 'simple' as i once thought. I am agnostic, but at the same time i don't think it matters for this setting, Tevye is at a crossroads here and 'bending' is a very appropriate word. He loves his daughter, if he didn't he wouldn't have been so angry or try to wrestle with his thoughts, but what his daughter has done, in his eyes, conflicts with his 'faith' and tradition. When i was younger, the idea of turning your back on your child seemed so wrong, but in Tevye shoes its not just about his faith, but his tradition, how he was brought up how he has lived and breathed for all his life. In the song 'tradition' it goes into how everything is set essentially for you, for the son 'at 10 i find a trade' for daughters a match is made by the matchmaker or the Papa etc, but here his daughter goes a different path and i would guess it would feel like being told that everything you you know or have lived by is a lie. At the end, it feels more like Tevye didn't know how to bend or accept his daughter rather then picking one over the other.
God has a clever way of doing this. Tevye wanted a learned man for his daughters and he did get them. However, one in a poor tailor, one in an imprisoned revolutionary, and one a Russian Orthodox.
Communism has never made logical sense. It is impossible to implement it without rivers of blood. I am at a loss to explain how Communists can be intelligent.
@@aaroncohenour559 It’s safe to assume that Motel learned the book like most of the boys in that town. And based on his song "Miracle of Miracles", he knows a lot about the book LOL
As I started watching this movie at my sister's house my mom told me its a difficult movie to watch and I still watched it and I was crying so hard. I have learned about it when I was at a Jewish religious school and that is what the parents of Jewish religious families do to their children when they go off the road from their religion.
That is so wrong. How can parents interfere like that because of religion? It happened to me, but I married someone of my own religion and he was so abusive. The one I loved was a very kind and understanding man, he was truly my soulmate, but my parents did not approve. I got divorced from Mr. Abusive and never ever remarried again. Not that I wasn't asked. I was afraid.
It really depends on the parents. Not all of them would disown their child. I think most wouldn't. However, these days are different. What's important to remember is that the villages that these Jews lived in were subject to regular pogroms by the Russian peasantry, some of which were extremely bloody and cruel. Fear and mistrust of those people was ingrained in the psyche of Tevye and the others. He may have been very afraid for his daughter, knowing simply that she ran off with one of Them. It was also a betrayal of his people, when the only thing that kept them afloat was tightly banding together. At the same time, there was absolutely nothing he could do. And he certainly couldn't approve.
usernamevidio says you.... he fails to understand, as you do, it is ALL about him! (In every sense of the last word)..... rigidity is a form of idolatry. But still, I can accept Tevye for and as he is, faults & imperfections and all
When this film first came out my best friend was an Orthodox Jew. She was quite casual about being cut off from her family if she married outside her faith. We were all horrified that this could happen. She’s 56 now and still single. All she ever wanted was to be married with children. And she was beautiful. I guess the match maker just couldn’t find the right one. So sad.
😟 I truly wonder if her family prefers her to be alone, or to be happy with her own family with a man from a different religion. This hits too close to home for me. God bless her.
@@kremove i think this hit home for her because her parents were Sephardic Jews. Her parents were both from the Middle East. Living in Europe made it doubly hard. I had an opportunity to reunite with her a few years ago. But i decided not to. I was always as adamant about NOT having children as she was about having them. And that would’ve been the case especially as a young woman i was told i couldn’t have children. But nearly thirty years ago, i unexpectedly fell pregnant. To meet up with her now, myself the mother of an almost thirty year old man, who otherwise would never have been born, and her childless, well i wouldn’t want the risk of hurting her. I also have seven step - grandchildren, some very tiny. She loved the little ones most of all. I wouldn’t want to risk seeing the pain of the sheer unfairness in her eyes. It’s just so sad.
I'm Traditional Catholic and we have similar rules in our religion. Marriage outside the faith is a huge no no...and yes it makes dating and finding someone else a thousand times harder. Still....i'm more sympathetic to Tevye on this one. I may never be able to marry and have kids because of my faith and yeah, it sucks. That being said, religion and belief DOES matter, (I can tell you some horror stories...I know one Catholic prolifer who married a pro-abortion Wiccan...yeah, didn't end well). I would also point out that Chava would have had to formally renounce Judaism to marry her choice. Had I been in Tevye's shoes I would have done what he did. I do however appreciate that they showed that for him it was painful too though
still, if chava birthed sons their hitbollelus it was tevye's fault this reminds me of bubbi hertzogovina Kohen z''l (zalman?), if she wasn't excommunicated i could have been a Jew
"On the other hand, how can I turn my back on my faith-my people? If I bend so far, I'll break! On the other hand...NO! There is no other hand. No, Chavaleh! No, no!"
I have a lot of respect for Tevye. Look, we all probably have things which if our family did it, we'd cut them off and they are well known. Maybe not so much religion, but let's be honest we all have our taboos and limits
I've seen this scene probably two dozen times and it still hurts my heart. I have a marrying age daughter and I can't imaging having to disown her. Truly powerful scene.
He kept trying and trying but ultimately sometimes people can only try so much....first the daughter without an arranged marriage, then the daughter with an outsider to the community,.....had the boy in question been anyone else i think he may have listened but the fact he was from the group of people that despised his people down to ruining his other daughters wedding? How could he accept that considering all he and his families before him have been taught....in such a small community to tell the people you trade with for your lively hood that you have someone like that in your family now? But even at the end he somewhat acknowledges her like he may actually write to her from America- if she survived.....my mom told me the place she mentioned she was going was actually worse for jews then the area she grew up in
Maybe if Chava had married Fyedka in more peaceful times, Tyeve wouldn't be so hard to her. In dark times, in times of persecutions when nothing is certain, tradition, belief all these ''conservative'' things to us nowadays, are the only things that have left to the people, all people, Christians, Jews, etc. Moreover, Tyeve's cheerful mood changes through the movie, even before Chava's marriage and remember that one of his daughters is on Siberia, that was just too much for him.
There were no peaceful times if I remember history correctly. In fact, now that nearly all Jews are gone from Russia, times haven't gotten so much better.
Here's the thing, he tried to accept his daughter and the young man, he tried the "on the other hand" thing. But he couldn't do it. People are talking about Reb tevye like he's terrible, but they forget he is just a man. The first daughter asked him to break his deal so she could marry the one she loved. Reb was conflicted, but was able to come around because they spoke before it all happened. The second daughter came to him with her husband to be and TOLD him they were getting married, outright said it was going to happen, and he was able to (with some thought) come around and agree to it. Now we have this daughter. She ran off and got married without telling Anyone then came back to the father to get his acceptance AFTER THE FACT. He has bent back, then bent back further, then he was finally asked to bend too far. He is a father, this is true, but he also just a human. In today's modern progressive climate it is common to say "accept whatever is asked of you. If you have to bend, bend. If you have to break your back, you'd better rip your spine out and get accepting"
I agree. However, even though he doesn't have to accept it (as is his right), he shouldn't say that his daughter is dead to him. That right there is going a little too far. He can keep his faith intact by not agreeing with the marriage, but I think he inadvertently brings it to the breaking point by denying his own daughter.
i agree...and lets be honest....most of us have lines where if family or friends crossed it, we'd cut them out. I'll promise you even some progressive people have things they won't accept
@@yourfavoriteshiba7645 actually yes he does. to marry Fredyka she would have had to apostize, in Orthodox Judaism when that happens you are supposed to sit shiva for them...basically they are dead to you and you must treat them as such under Jewish law.
We have 6 son's, three have married Christian women. They are lovely beautiful women. Our First Chanukah at my son's home, I was taken aback by the Christmas tree in the living room. I love my children, I would never turn my back on them.
Did your sons who married the Christians have to convert to Christianity and give up their faith? And by accepting the other faith they totally turn their back on what you believed and were brought up on? Because that's what happens when you marry outside the faith and have to embrace another faith. I'm all for inter-religous marriage provided one party does not have to convert. But in some places like in my country you have to give up your religion especially when you marry a Muslim. And it's a one way street. Let's say a few years from now the marriage ends and you want to go back to your original religion, you can't.
Urbanite Urbanizer I think that depends on whether religion is defined as a personal belief or a social construct. Perhaps it is both. One can always return in one’s own way. If others do not accept you as you are, isn’t that their failure?
Are they christian, or Catholic? There is a big difference. If they are christian, you should teach them about messianic Judaism. It will help bring both Christianity and Judaism into 1.
KingIceHunter Catholics are Christians. I think you may mean to distinguish between Catholics and Protestants, but that leaves out Coptic & all Eastern Orthodox rites.
Good for you Tevye. Think of it from another point of view: What holds that community together in the face of incredible hardship, oppression, and poverty? Tradition, the idea of a shared set of beliefs that give support and solace and meaning to people who would otherwise give into hopelessness and become a desperate and cruel rabble. When you undermine all that, what is left. And before you scoff, you sitting in front of your laptop with a full belly and you're biggest concern being finding a wifi access point when you go to the coffee shop, say a prayer for those who have nothing and have had to endure privations throughout history, finding a way to create communities that would endure across generations. Chava made her choice. Perhaps she was too young and naïve to fully appreciate what it would mean. Perhaps she thought she could have both. Perhaps she would have made the same choice if she had known. But I appreciate that in the end, the musical stayed true to its core principles.
This typifies the pain parents feel when their children leave for their own lives. Going off to school, marriage, moving, etc. Very powerful. I think about this scene a lot.
The biggest thing I noticed is that with the other two daughters their fiancees' came with them. She came alone, showing that her choice marry left her all alone. That hits me the most, begging your father the accept you and your husband yet your husband doesn't even come with you.
If this happened to me i would be in the role of Tevye. Not sure how much this is worth, but i can't imagine such a decision being made without some sense of loss or pain
This is still so common in my country- India. Boys and girls from different faiths fall in Love and they always end up in a situation where they have choose between parents and love 😔
I always thought Tevye was unreasonable here, that he was so hard-headed that he couldn't accept the love his own daughter had for her husband-to-be. His religion was clouding his judgement, preventing him from understanding, and so sad for him. Now, as an adult, I see the opposite. Tevye loved his daughters to his core, even manipulating things for the first two to be with the ones they loved. But this daughter's choice alienated her from her father's very core, the faith that guided him through life, the so-touching personal moment-by-moment relationship with God, that she arrogantly chose to challenge. She expected him to yield to her choice, yet his own integrity made that impossible. "I'll break", meaning he would lose his own self identity, his intimacy with God, making life meaningless. Until you have a child make a marriage choice, a willful, unrepentant, destructive adulterous choice for example, and demand that you accept it, I don't think you can understand Tevye. At this point in life, sadly, I do. A son you love more than anything, doing something you cannot accept, rebelling against the core value system of who you are, and his whole upbringing, is a pain I hope few experience. It's simply awful, and I have a complete and deep empathy for Tevye here.
A lot of parents have been in that situation, and it is truly, truly difficult. All you can do is keep loving them, even if you can never support their decision. This is the choice that Tevye eventually makes (strongly suggested by the willingness to be in contact through the mail).
@@calwells5612 Damn, it's no fun being a parents. It's a thankless job. While I love and admire my parents, I knew I could never be as selfless as them. So I choose never to be a parent and have never regretted it. Salute to all parents who keep loving their children even when they break their heart.
I understand this situation from the son's side. This scene brings me to uncontrollable tears to this day. Leaving your parents faith to follow your own path, knowing that you will lose them even though they love you is the hardest things I ever have lived through and still do. I understand the father's side too. His faith is who he is and I love my father wholly.
This happens a lot in my country when a non Muslim converts to marry a Muslim. Marriages between Muslims and non Muslims are not recognised in my country. A non Muslim has to convert to Islam before he or she can marry a Muslim and that's heartbreaking for many non Muslim parents.
In My Mom and Dad's day you didn't date out of your faith - If you were a Catholic and Irish that's what you married some people did but not many . I can understand her Father's point of view
same here. its very important to keep any religion alive if you are apart of it. the problem is as the more who marry those who are not in the religion and they dont convert then that familys ENTIRE religious means is lost. it happens all the time with a jewish mom or dad and a christian mom or dad. then the family either all goes christian or there is no faith in any religion at all which is pretty sad to say the least. thats why so many people today are "half jewish" and if people dont keep the religion alive then there will be no Judaism what so ever. i just hope i can one day support my family and religion.
What people need to understand about Tevye's predicament is, by marrying outside of the Jewish faith, and going behind her family's back to do so to boot, Chava has effectively abandoned Judasim. To accept her doing so, would be tantamount to betraying his own faith, which he has followed his whole life. Tevye is clearly a loving father, but he realises that some things are too important to risk destroying for that sake of his love.
I asked myself when I first saw this scene why Tevye was being unreasonable to Chava. She just married a guy she loved. Fredya wasn't the enemy. He was just a simple farmer. He never forced anyone off their land or attacked Jewish people. This scene made me sad for poor Chava. But I'm sure it must've been hard for Tevye, too. Having to choose between following your beliefs and denying your daughter. This movie was excellent and well-written.
What you don't understand is that he was indeed the enemy. Both his other daughters married a fellow Jew and Chava did not do that. She married one of those who regularly massacred them.
@@TyonKree I don't think Fyedka was inherently guilty of persecuting and harassing Jews, but he was part of their culture; and unlike Motel or Perchik, Tevye had absolutely no way of knowing what kind of man he was.
@OtherWorlds AllWorlds I mean can you blame them, throughout history the jews have constantly been persecuted even during times of peace. I'd say it's pretty understandable that after years of being attacked and purposefully seperated they'd grow some kind of "us vs them" ideology.
@OtherWorlds AllWorlds Mmmm, I guess I understand that, though I hope we can both agree that choosing to be seperate doesn't mean choosing to be tormented for that.
My great grandmother was disowned by her Lutheran parents for marrying a catholic. Her siblings kept in touch but her parents never spoke to her again…
People are judging Tevye far too harshly, with modern sensibilities. It was a different time back then, and a different place. As Tevye explains in the beginning, your clan (your faith, your community) was all you had. Everyone else was the Other, a potential foe (as the Orthodox Church had proven to the Jews many times throughout Russian history, and as the Bolsheviks were soon to prove). Marrying outside the faith, to Tevye and any other traditional Jew, would have been nothing less than blood treachery. Small wonder Tevye can't bring himself to accept it.
It’s crazy how times have changed, at least somewhat. My grandparents have stated they would have disowned my mother had she married someone who wasn’t Catholic or Lutheran. Hard to believe someone would disown their child for something like that. I suppose that’s the whole moral quandary of the movie. Tevya having to open his mind and decide if his traditions, or the integrity and happiness of his daughters come first. I mean it’s 25 years after he’s married that he even asks his wife if he loves him, the concept of love seems quite foreign to him.
in this modern era....i would have done what Tevye did. Look, maybe it isn't religion but if you value anything at all there are probably lines where if a family member or friend crossed it you would cut them out.
@@brainfarts5352 you kidding? Catholic, Muslim, satanist, as if I care what religion my kid’s SO follows. That doesn’t mean anything to me, and this is coming from a Catholic.
In the original movie Tevye the Milkman, with Maurice Schwartz as Tevye the story played out very differently. Chava went to live with her husband's family and was miserable. She escaped back to her father's house and there was much tension between the two families. People have to remember the times. You can't place todays values on actions taken back then. The gentile and Jewish cultures in Anatevka did not integrate well. There was just a pogrom. The Jews would be expelled. Tevye's reaction was not unusual for what would have happened in real life during those times. th-cam.com/video/IMNP72gs1nM/w-d-xo.html
You are telling the absolute truth. Jewishness was not a trait, characteristic or lifestyle Chava "adopted". It was who she was. It was her entire identity, her faith, her heritage her culture and it exceeded, by several levels, the concept of simply marrying against her parents' wishes. The two cultures, especially back then, could never successfully blend because Chava could never cease being who and what she was at the core .. a young Jewish woman! The harsh realities she would inevitably encounter within her husband's antisemitic, gentile culture would certainly circumvent her best efforts to to adapt. Within the context of the times, Chava would certainly lose.
It's heartbreaking to watch but also paints a really strong image of the social issues of the time. And to give Tevye credit, he is not completely obstinate and willing to think it over before rejecting his daughter, and in one of the last scenes of the film he offers a little remark suggesting she isn't in fact dead to him. Maybe one part of it is his realising that Fyedka, though a gentile, does not hate the Jews like many other Russian gentiles do..?
This is life can be going great then ull be in shock an ur hole world will be upside down ,everone on earth will go through it 3 maybe 4 times ,,if ur in a good time in joy it because one is coming ,an ur ur going through it will pass I hope 🤞
Her name is Neva Small. Born in 1952, she debuted with the New York City Opera at age ten, then played several roles on and off Broadway before starring in this film. She also recorded four singles in 1966 and a solo album in 2004. I had no idea she was 19 years old in this role!
There are consequences that need to be considered and factored in to such decisions. Chavaleh had to be, or at the very least should have been, fully prepared for this outcome...having been born and raised an orthodox Jew ✡️ in this time and place.
Chava married a Russian… not only that but an Orthodox Christian. The same people that were ransacking the village and attacking Tevye’s family, persecuting the Jewish faith… Tevye had no choice but to view Chava’s love for the enemy as the ultimate betrayal.
Komal gupta change is not always growth and growth is not always change, but we are capable of both (and are likely to experience change more often than we realize or desire)
A wondrous scene filled with wondrous music. It is worth noting that Tevye couldn't forgive his daughter for marrying a Gentile, but was offended when the Gentile constable thought he was joking when he wished the constable had been a Jew. It didn't occur to him that it was a two-way street.
Because it wasn't a 2 way street in Russia at that time. The Jews were a small minority that was horribly persecuted. The two religions were not on equal terms.
He loves her, but she has married a Christian in a church. In Jewish law, if you are born a Jew; you and if you are a woman, your children, will always be Jewish. However, the two ways you would no longer be considered Jewish is to convert or to be married in a religious institution that is not a synagogue. Chava married in a church. Not only has she married outside of her religion, she has put herself outside of her religion. In the US something like half the Jews are married to non-Jews. It started mostly in the 60s and 70s, and the numbers keep growing higher. Studies have shown that by the third generation, that is, the initial couple’s grandchildren, will not be practicing Judaism. That is what terrifies Tevya, that Chava has left the religion and ways of living of her people, and her children would be the same until the time came where her grandchildren will not even know their forebears were once Jewish. And if that doesn’t sound like a big deal; I know it doesn’t even to some other Jews these days, remember Christians and Jews mostly had adversarial relationships since about the third century C.E. Christians felt it was their duty to convert or failing that, to kill the Jews. The Crusaders figured it was easier to kill the European Jews nearby rather than travel all the way to the Holy Land to kill the Muslims and “take back” Jerusalem from the infidels. Jews and Muslims were, after all, equally infidels. And of course, there were the pogroms all over Eastern Europe. My grandmother would tell me about her siblings who did not come from the US. Her brothers, she said, were taken away from the soldiers and “we never saw them again.” She showed me a picture of her younger sister with her husband and little boy. “The soldiers came and killed them.” She grew up in what is now Belarus, at the beginning of the 20th century. But her experiences would have been similar to Tevya’s and Goldie’s. So the soldiers, and Fyodor is a soldier, are the enemy. Not just the enemy, but the brutal, barbaric enemy. And their daughter married one of those beasts? This would be huge to the parents. It’s not a matter of “ Hey,no problem! We’ll celebrate Chanukah AND Christmas!“ as in the US.
Motel: Even a poor taylor is entitled to some happiness! I promise you Rep Tevia your daughter will not starve! Tevye: Well? When shall we have the wedding? Perchik: I love her! Tevye: Well, children. I've decided to give you my blessing AND my permission! Chava: I beg you to accept us! Tevya: NO!
Motel and perchik at least asked for permission/blessing on and on when Chava got married on her own (knowing their marriage is unacceptable within her family or at least her father's religion). Tevye made himself very clear in this song; he love his daughter but accept her means he rejected himself and if he bent that far he would break.
Maybe I’m the only one sad for Chava. There’s religion and there’s destiny. Fvedka treats her well and they have similar interests in books. She’s a Orthodox Jewish and he’s Orthodox Christian. Tevye saying “she’s dead to us” made me sad for Chava.
I never knew about the pogroms till i watched this film the other night ...we were never taught about it in school. The whole of Europe was horrible to the jews ... learning about the pogroms upset me for days
Yes that is exactly the point Karen, Jewish ppl (as many other religions/races) did not marry outside their tribe, had all to do with safety. A tribes member would understand her way of life/thinking. The song "tradition" says it all. And another thing, most likely the ppl outside, her husbands family would not accept her too. She chose a difficult life, yes, out of love, that is true, but with a great sadness. And the Russians did treat the Jews really bad in those days, so there was a lot of grieve already. Seeing they were evicted at the end. (in the original book the story ends much worse, Tevje is alone, Golde is dead and the daughters scattered but for the musical they adjusted the end) So there was not much trust for the Russians by the Jewish community and that is why Tevye is so upset Chava married a Russian. In the days of the Czar, Jewish boys had to serve in the army for 20 years, from the age of 10 until they turned 30. Not so difficult to realise not many made it to that age. They were bullied and sought out, tried to get them baptised against their will was only one of the things done to them, there was totally no respect for their traditions or their lives. You should read the book, written by Bernice Rubens, called "Brothers", the first part of the book is situated in Russia of Tevye's time about 2 brothers serving in the Czars army. The book has 4 parts, all about 2 brothers of the next generation, the second parts plays out in Great Britain, the next in Germany and the last part in Russian/Israel. All volumes make it clear to see why it is such a risque to marry outside your own comfortable and safe tribe.
@@dtschuor459 Thanks for your kind comment. I too understand Tevye, doesn't mean I think it is right he cast her out, but that is beside the point. And yes, you are right, for centuries the Roma and Sinti have been treated real bad. The Jews were allowed to live in the cities, practice their religion, but that depended at the authorities and for most the Kings they lived under. They were still subjected to ridiculous rules. For instance during the late middle ages Jews were forced to wear a sign on their clothing so ppl could distinguish them. That is were Hitler came up with the idea of forcing Jews wearing a yellow star. Also during the middle ages Jews were forbidden to have access to the guilds (trade-unions where one had to be a member off otherwise you could not practice certain occupations). Every occupation had their own groups and memberships. Like carpenters, stonemason, painters, builders, etc. Few occupation were left out, like banker, actor, doctor (only for their own ppl) but the Jewish doctors were that good, many Christians found their way to them after dark to seek their help. It is a fact that today there are still many Jews working in the bankers world, also lots of Jewish artists, doctors. So the Jews had it a little better than the Roma, but were subjected to many rules and regulations and this went for al the European countries. The Roma/Sinti had a harder life during the middle ages and were persecuted real bad. It was common practice to hunt them down, sell them as slaves or kill them. This was all sanctioned by the Government of those days. I never understood were this hate came from. Maybe "commoners" were jealous of their freedom, not being stuck in a life of strict Christian rules, or maybe they just didn't understand them or their way of life, and all to often people fear what they don't know and that fear made them want to destroy them. During WWII both races had it bad. Both were to persecuted and both were bound to end in a concentration camp. Estimated figures are; Before WWII there were 947,500 Roma and Sinti living in Europe, 285,650 perished in the camps. Even after WWII it took a while before the Roma got recognition as war casualties. In the Balkan countries even today they belong to a minority living in poverty, being analphabetic and in poor health conditions. If you are interested in the history of Roma you should watch the photo's by Josef Koudelka. I will give you a link. These pictures paint their lives in the sixties. (1967)They are heartbreaking and beautiful. Well, this comment has become much longer than I planned, sorry about that. Have a nice weekend, greetz from a Dutch lady. www.magnumphotos.com/newsroom/society/josef-koudelka-gypsies/
@@DirkjeA Nice Dutch lady, you have fulfilled every stereotype I have about the Dutch from the few Dutch exchange students I knew in college. Your English is fantastic, you are obviously well-informed, and you seem very kind and compassionate. I read an interesting first hand account by a Roma man who was a teen during the Nazi occupation and he explained how even though it was awful for them in the camps (and leading up to that time) he knew the Jews were treated even worse. It was interesting to hear a different perspective, but still heartbreaking... His book was called "A Gypsy in Auschwitz" by Otto Rosenberg. As far as the many centuries, I always loved the rebellious nature of Martin Luther and his common sense reform measures, but a couple of years ago I found out he was, as was normal I guess for his era, anti-Semitic. I was still disappointed by that, but I guess we are all human and subject to our own failings. As far as Tevye's dilemma, I used to explain to my students that in my grandparent's generation (born 1915 and 1917 as first generation American immigrants) you did not marry outside of your religion. Too scandalous (we're Catholic). They always thought that sounded silly. Then I reminded them that in my parent's generation it was illegal many places in the US to marry someone of a different "race." (I hate using the word that way, I really prefer ethnicity, but that is how it was defined then...) Then I would suggest that perhaps we could consider that it might be okay for people of the same gender to marry one another one day. I did get push-back on that idea (they were aged 12-14) from some, but I know it opened the door for others. Now today, in the US, we have legal same sex marriage, but as I'm sure you know, we will have to fight to keep it. I see progress here, but it is maddeningly slow. At any rate, I feel his pain and I respect his reasons. Ethically, it is just one movement too far. It is just such a sad part of the story when there is so much joy in many other parts of the musical. Sorry for the missive. It is just so nice to talk to someone on TH-cam who is well-informed and interesting. Have a beautiful day, a lovely season, a Happy New Year to come. I hope for better here and everywhere in the world next year!
@@dtschuor459 Hello kind sir, thanks for your nice reply. I loved to read it for I also love communicating with other people that are educated and well-read. To me the length of your comment was something I really enjoyed. So, to react on the things you wrote: Yes there is a book called "Tevye the Dairyman and other stories". Written by Sholom Aleichem (nickname) There is some info about it on Wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddler_on_the_Roof I have visited New York with my mother in 1991 and we have been to Broadway to see the musical, played in the Wintergarden Theatre and Tevye was played by the famous Topol, the same as in the movie. I can tell you this was an experience of a lifetime. During the same visit we also saw another musical, Cats, also very beautiful, but to me it didn't held a candle next to Fiddler on the Roof. But, to stay with books, I mentioned Bernice Rubens and her book "Brothers" and I can really recommend that should you want to read. It is about 4 generations of brothers, one following the tradition and the other struggling with traditions and wanting to assimilate real bad. I was so into that story, I could not stop reading before reaching "The End"... ;) I don't know the book you mentioned by Otto Rosenberg "Gypsy in Auschwitz" but I will certainly go look for it. Thanks for bringing that one up. Did you know that Rosenberg is a typical Roma name and that there is well known trio, The Rosenberg Trio that make the most beautiful music a la Django Reinhardt. You can find them here on You Tube. Check them out if you like, they are really awesome. They are from Dutch origin but are known all over the world. What you wrote about your grandparents sounds familiar. I think the concept was to marry within your own tribe, circle, race (I too don't like the word for the same reasons) worldwide. It was safe to marry in your own group of people, you were understood, you knew the rules and what was expected of you. You also knew they would not see you as different. There is this saying in Dutch, and I don't know if it exists in English, so this is the literal translation "Two religions on one pillow, there will be a devil in the middle". However I don't think it was ever forbidden to marry outside your own here in Holland, it was just not done. (exceptions occurred of course) In those cases ppl went through with it, often it ended up in a divorce. Strange your students thought it a silly concept, while in reality it was only one, maybe two generations ago. My aunt immigrated to the US during the 50ties. Here had just ended WWll and she was rather touchy about racism. When she entered a bus, she always deliberately sat in the back, in the zone for coloured pp and got kicked of the bus for it several times. And that too is only 2 generations ago. By the way, where did your grandparents come from as I may ask? Well, that is it for now (maybe we better communicate at Facebook) :) Wish you a great week, stay safe. Greetz.
Honestly, as horrible as it is, I understand Tevye's denial. It's extreme, but his devotion to Jewish tradition, culture and religion is so extreme. It's a horrible choice, because he ends up betraying one or the other. On another note, the storytelling in the music of this scene is incredible. "On the other hand" when he talks about denying Chava, the music had a little tribute to Chava's theme. Then when he denies her, back to the Fiddler's tradition theme.
Tradition and faith ..more important than a daughter.....? ....if I’ll bend that far I’ll break .....ahhhh religion ....many religions..but one God .....
As a father of 3 daughters I am a devout evangelical as was my late wife I can understand Tevyas plight. My 3 daughters all married men with beliefs like ours. My 7 grand children are being raised in our faith but I can understand his plight.
FRANCO PEREZ Are you a moron, or just ignorant? I just watched the movie and Tevye made it quite clear that if she married him, that she was cutting herself off from her family, her religion, and her people. She CHOSE to do it anyway, and the results were exactly what Tevye said. You apparently know nothing about historic Judaism, or for that matter, nearly every historic culture. You also don’t realize that people actually believed their religion once upon a time.
Well, He shouldn't have disowned her, but the least she could have done is told her parents what she planned to do instead of letting them find out from a priest, after the fact.
Watched this part as a conservative Christian kid with my family and felt bad for both of them, but mostly Tevye... watching it now as an adult after having (unwillingly) left my faith and... it’s haunting. I haven’t told my family yet. I’m terrified of this. I can’t help remembering that my parents never outright condemned his actions here. There was even a hint “well... if YOU ever married outside the faith...” Gah... what a horrible thing to have to wonder about from my own family :( Oh, and his line about “if I bend that far, I’ll break.” WHAT DO YOU THINK CHAVA DID? SHE BENT THAT FAR, AND SHE DIDN’T BREAK.
You’ve *unwillingly* left your faith? How does that work? You can always talk to God. I recommend you try to do so! Try also to pray to His Mother, Mary. She is a very powerful intercession and can help us in our relationship to God. If you don’t know where to start, I can point you to some stuff. The Rosary is a great place to start :)
@@thusundi1963 I left my RC faith willingly, I simply didn't believe. If you don't believe, no amount of prayer can make you change. For me, praying to to God or Mary will be pointless, it would be just like praying to Santa. One simple thing made me lose my religion. Everybody in my church thought they were perfect because they went to confession & mass, yet when they had the opportunity to prove they were good people, they didn't. Words mean nothing if you don't act like it too. Their disgust & pettiness when I fell for my girlfriend was appalling, & made me see thorough the charade to view their hypocrisy clearly. It cost me my family, apart from my non-religious oldest brother, when they asked me to chose between her & them. I asked them to articulate their argument, & when I asked why, they simply said because, & nothing else. Fortunately, my parents & I have a great relationship now, I kept in touch with them until I wore them down, showing them that I still love them & always will. I just don't want to follow their religion. I never see my other brother, who was my best friend growing up. He has been a hard loss. I'm still with my girlfriend, now my wife, over 18 years later. My motto in life is simply follow the Golden Rule. I don't simply say nice things with no meaning behind them, but I try to do them, putting myself out for others. It's the only way I can be true to me.
@@shedevil50337 Wow. I’m sorry that you’ve lost contact with some family. That’s always hard. I’m also disappointed to hear of any pride by your Church members. It’s easy to fall into the trap of pride and vanity for many people. It’s important to remember that we are Catholics for the sake of Christ, not for the sake of other people. I could just go join a club if I only wanted to meet people. Like 1 Saint John 4:19 tells us: “Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us.” I hope you can bring yourself to consider God’s love for you. If you’re still hurt by your treatment at the hands of Catholics, please remember that God is perfect, and will only do what is best for you, if only you’ll cooperate with His will.
People are forgetting the 2nd to last scene of the movie/show. When Chava and Fyedka show up to say goodbye... Tevye says "God be with you" showing a small, but incredibly significant sign of compassion for her.
So Tevye did towards the end of the movie forgive Chava. I'm glad he was able to let bygones be bygones.
Sweet Crimson not let bygones be bygones. Though he still loves her, he can’t forgive her for her action. But he still showed her his love for her by saying god be with you
@@huydang5955 I always thought about that too. when I first saw this as a kid, being the grandson and great nephew of 5 ww2 veterans. I was well versed in ww2 events because whenever they got together a large part of the conversation always focused on the war. It's stayed with them.
Not to mention the mother, Golde screams their destination in the States as loud as she can so that they know how to find them.
@@huydang5955 Yeah well, whether you die by getting bitten by the dog or the cat makes no difference, being killed by communists or nazi's makes no difference, you were killed for your identity.......
I just realized that Tevye's dairy cart serves as a reference for the progression of the story. At first, his horse is pulling the cart while he walks along side. His burden is light. He then takes the place of the horse when it's injured, pulling the cart himself but the lame horse still walks beside him. His burden is moderate. Then he's pulling the cart on his own with no horse present. Still a moderate burden but he's lost something important to him along the way. Then, he isn't able to pull anymore so he's pushing the cart from behind, the cart is oriented in the opposite direction it should be traveling, but still with the rope around his shoulder for added support. His burden is heavy. Then at 1:24 he slowly lifts the cart and begins pushing forward again with no rope for support. The weight of the burden is almost unbearable.
dude that was suich a beutiful and smart remark, just when i thought i couldnt appreciate enymore this movie
Not just reference but symbolism to his plight, I always view it similar but not identical to the themes involved with Hemmingway's Old Man and The Sea, where as the old man struggle with the fish represent defeat, loss, misfortune, weary, and suffering that life can bring. Tevye's internal struggles and burdens are presented a bit different but the cart is a physical representation of the same idea as the struggle with the fish. This moment in the movie could be compared to the destruction of the fish and the old man finally breaking as a result of his loss. Tevye has stopped the cart and imagines this scene, and rejects Chava because he has finally been broken.
The difference in themes between the two stories being that Hemmingway shows a struggle between nature as a giving and taking away force and that man's determination to live life is by what he is defined. Fiddler on the Roof defines Tevye not just by his determination but by how he chooses to love and fulfill that love in his daughter's lives, by giving, forgiving and choosing to rebuild.
Brilliant
Also after the pogrom at the wedding feast the Russian guy says "Orders are orders. You understand." having two meanings. One is of course that, despite Constable liking Tevye, Constable must obey the order of his superior. But we could also see this sentence as a message from God to Tevye as Tevye keeps asking God questions throughout the film. "Orders are orders" could mean that there are certain rules to follow (tradition) and if you break those rules (orders) then there will be consequences. We see this with every daughter breaking tradition and each daughter breaks the tradition a little further so the consequences get worse too. The first breaking of the tradition leads to a pogrom on the wedding of the first daughter. The second leads to the second daughter going to the Siberian gulag. The third leads to Chava going to Krakow, Poland, and we all know what happened in Poland in the 1940s (extermination camps). "Orders are orders. You understand." And of course marriage according to Judaism can only be within the own faith so breaking that order is even worse than the breaking of tradition.
Wow. Excellent insight and wonderful interpretation. Really…bravo.
This is one of the most powerful parts of the film. The song and dance number are especially poignant in how they show Chava dancing with her mother, then with her older sisters to symbolize her growth into womanhood. Then each of the sisters dances off with their partners, and she is placed between the fiddler and the man she loves, making a choice on love vs tradition. So simple, yet so effective.
JimmySteller excellent interpretation Jimmy, it is exactly as you say. It is without doubt one of the most beautiful yet harrowing scenes in cinema. It draws you to it, but is hard to watch. A terrible beauty.
JimmySteller so true. Tevye needs to realize Chava's grown. She should be allowed to marry any guy she likes: Jewish or not.
Lois Lopez I think maybe the movie has a different idea on how this plays out. It’s not about a girl being able to marry who she loves, but about a man giving up his love for God and his people to the point where she is asking him to give up everything that makes him who he is. And not only will he not do it, he knows he will no longer be the man he was if he bends that far.
KingIceHunter I'm not saying Tevye should give up who he is, but he has to realize his daughter is grown. I don't agree with him telling his wife that Chava is dead to them and that they'll forget her. It's wrong to just write off your child because she didn't live the way you wanted. I don't understand how he could just turn his back on her.
Lois Lopez I’m not trying to be rude when I say this, but if you don’t live that kinda life it’s harder to understand it.
For those who criticize Tevye, you should understand that he was probably the most progressive person among the Jews of Anatevka. He allowed his eldest daughter to cause him to break a bargain made with the butcher, which was absolutely scandalous. He allowed his second daughter to dictate her marriage to HIM, again...beyond comprehension. These 2 violations of Ashkenazi Jewish tradition were absolutely revolutionary. How could he be expected to yield to a complete repudiation of his very identity? Remember what it was to be an Eastern European Jew. To be hated and despised by the government, the majority of the people, to be forbidden from holding public office, to be subject to pogroms, evictions, expulsions. How easy would it be to disavow your religion, your culture under those circumstances and have an easier life? The fortitude and dedication to who you are under such oppression is not to be taken lightly or dismissed out of hand. Why then should anyone expect that for the love of his daughter would he cast that aside? You shouldn’t. Nor should you be surprised that he wouldn’t.
Wow, so you were alive in 1905? Because traditions sure haven’t changed since then.
@Lala lalala You don't know what the most high wants. Read Nehimiah and remind me what happened to mixed couples there.
Praise for the wisest of the fools is misplaced.
GrumblingGrognard I agree. Good thing we are talking about wise men not fools
@@walleras Wisdom is proven by the results of the actions; not by the number of people that "respect" a person; that is a popularity contest and while religious people have confused these concepts for eons, they are very different. Losing all contact forever with one of the most important people in your life because of (entirely) unsubstantiated beliefs is foolish, period. Fairy tales are fairy tales no matter how long they have been around, who wrote them or how many people believe them.
Topol’s entire performance in this scene is absolutely incredible. So powerful and heart wrenching.
In all the other scenes where Tevye gives his blessing, he sees Hodel and Tzietel's eyes and sees how much they're in love. In this scene, Tevye only sees Chava in silhouette :(
Very good observation
She was also the one who broke away from tradition the hardest.
he gets pretty close at 4:45
@@paulinotou I don't think it has anything to do with that tbh.
Each other respective husband went with his daughter for their blessing.
This was under his nose with no such grouping.
She was alone, if her husband joined her in the begging, perhaps he'd see how happy they were.
@@shortstuff780 That was the pattern I got from the whole thing.
His eldest asked for marraige without his permission, yet she still married a local traditional orthodox Jew.
His 2nd did the same except it was with a liberal less traditional Jew.
The 3rd daughter straight up didn't marry a Jew.
I think that was the premise of "If I bend that far, Ill break". He already bended his beliefs to accept his daughters but this was the one that was beyond what he knew he could handle.
This is a hard scene to watch. You can feel his heart breaking. R.I.P., Chaim Topol.
When I saw this scene the first time I thought I was going to puke because I actually felt Tevye's agony. Even knowing this is a work of fiction, and these are actors, Topol really brings out the raw emotion, and I somehow internalized it - my stomach was churning and my heart racing and aching, and I felt like a stone was on my chest. Excellent acting here, but it is painful to watch.
I've watched this movie so many times that I've lost count, (starting when I was about 11 and I'm 63..) and this scene is utterly heartbreaking. Now that I have grown kids it's even more powerful. Once I saw it from the daughter's perspective and now I see it from the parent's.. You're right, it really is painful to watch.
Hodel's line "Oh what a melancholy choice this is, Wanting home, wanting him. Closing my heart to every hope but his," can equally apply to Chava. Both sisters choose to follow the man they love, even when it means giving up everything else. The difference being of course that Tevye can accept it more easily in Hodel's case.
Yes, very true. The story realistically warms Tevye up to these unorthodox matches. The story of being a parent, making babies who become independent humans.
And of course the other two sisters married within their Jewish faith. That is important to remember also.
i used to watch this with my father when i was much younger, at the time i didn't understand all of the movie, but recently i wanted to watch parts of it and with age this is not as 'simple' as i once thought. I am agnostic, but at the same time i don't think it matters for this setting, Tevye is at a crossroads here and 'bending' is a very appropriate word. He loves his daughter, if he didn't he wouldn't have been so angry or try to wrestle with his thoughts, but what his daughter has done, in his eyes, conflicts with his 'faith' and tradition. When i was younger, the idea of turning your back on your child seemed so wrong, but in Tevye shoes its not just about his faith, but his tradition, how he was brought up how he has lived and breathed for all his life. In the song 'tradition' it goes into how everything is set essentially for you, for the son 'at 10 i find a trade' for daughters a match is made by the matchmaker or the Papa etc, but here his daughter goes a different path and i would guess it would feel like being told that everything you you know or have lived by is a lie. At the end, it feels more like Tevye didn't know how to bend or accept his daughter rather then picking one over the other.
One of the saddest scenes in the film
It is certainly one of the most moving scenes. and the music is incredibly beautiful.
I love Tevyes charecter. He is a shadow of every kind father who loves family . He is great and the actors are suppers. I watched it hundreds of times
In the end it doesn’t matter who’s right and who’s wrong, two people ended up in an incredible amount of pain.
More than two.
I was 9 or 10 when I first saw this movie. I'm 59 now and it's still one of my favorite movies. I sing along the entire time.
“If I bend that far I’ll break” so powerful
God has a clever way of doing this. Tevye wanted a learned man for his daughters and he did get them. However, one in a poor tailor, one in an imprisoned revolutionary, and one a Russian Orthodox.
lol, good call, be careful what you wish for.
We don’t know that Motel was learned or literate.
Communism has never made logical sense. It is impossible to implement it without rivers of blood. I am at a loss to explain how Communists can be intelligent.
@@aaroncohenour559 It’s safe to assume that Motel learned the book like most of the boys in that town. And based on his song "Miracle of Miracles", he knows a lot about the book LOL
All Jews were literate in hebrew
As I started watching this movie at my sister's house my mom told me its a difficult movie to watch and I still watched it and I was crying so hard. I have learned about it when I was at a Jewish religious school and that is what the parents of Jewish religious families do to their children when they go off the road from their religion.
That is so wrong. How can parents interfere like that because of religion? It happened to me, but I married someone of my own religion and he was so abusive. The one I loved was a very kind and understanding man, he was truly my soulmate, but my parents did not approve. I got divorced from Mr. Abusive and never ever remarried again. Not that I wasn't asked. I was afraid.
It really depends on the parents. Not all of them would disown their child. I think most wouldn't. However, these days are different. What's important to remember is that the villages that these Jews lived in were subject to regular pogroms by the Russian peasantry, some of which were extremely bloody and cruel. Fear and mistrust of those people was ingrained in the psyche of Tevye and the others. He may have been very afraid for his daughter, knowing simply that she ran off with one of Them. It was also a betrayal of his people, when the only thing that kept them afloat was tightly banding together. At the same time, there was absolutely nothing he could do. And he certainly couldn't approve.
@@Pashasmom1 G-d willing, you'll still find happiness.
NO NO CHAVA" Probably the saddest part of this classic movie.
For me, the saddest part was when I realized Tevye will likely never see Hodel or Chava again.
Iam not jewish but i cry when watching this scène.
It's like humans are capable of sympathising with others.
yep same here
People who would criticize Tevye don't understand: It was NEVER about him!
usernamevidio says you.... he fails to understand, as you do, it is ALL about him! (In every sense of the last word)..... rigidity is a form of idolatry. But still, I can accept Tevye for and as he is, faults & imperfections and all
Lala lalala was it?
I thought if your mother is jewish you are jewish.
@@vinmaison2862 That is how it goes in the Jewish culture, but unfortunately it gets disrgarded a lot
@@1femalegeek till this day ?
The symbolism of how far away Tevye sees Chava to be when she’s standing right beside him is chilling.
Love when he sings the song little bird, as a parent I can relate.
One of the greatest movie of all times full of parently emotions!
I've seen this movie many..many times with my children...very touching scene. Great movie..! A big exemple for us..as Parents. Shalom Alejem.
Saddest scene in the whole movie plus the scene when they had to leave their village.
Really? Im not so sure. Would staying there through the second world war have been somehow better?
@@mariasmith2198 it is sad because of the way they get told to leave
Right? The song Anatevka makes me so incredibly sad. It's like I'm mourning for someplace I've never been.
So beautiful. Love the movie and songs
When this film first came out my best friend was an Orthodox Jew. She was quite casual about being cut off from her family if she married outside her faith. We were all horrified that this could happen. She’s 56 now and still single. All she ever wanted was to be married with children. And she was beautiful. I guess the match maker just couldn’t find the right one. So sad.
😟 I truly wonder if her family prefers her to be alone, or to be happy with her own family with a man from a different religion. This hits too close to home for me. God bless her.
@@kremove i think this hit home for her because her parents were Sephardic Jews. Her parents were both from the Middle East. Living in Europe made it doubly hard. I had an opportunity to reunite with her a few years ago. But i decided not to. I was always as adamant about NOT having children as she was about having them. And that would’ve been the case especially as a young woman i was told i couldn’t have children. But nearly thirty years ago, i unexpectedly fell pregnant. To meet up with her now, myself the mother of an almost thirty year old man, who otherwise would never have been born, and her childless, well i wouldn’t want the risk of hurting her. I also have seven step - grandchildren, some very tiny. She loved the little ones most of all. I wouldn’t want to risk seeing the pain of the sheer unfairness in her eyes. It’s just so sad.
I'm Traditional Catholic and we have similar rules in our religion.
Marriage outside the faith is a huge no no...and yes it makes dating and finding someone else a thousand times harder.
Still....i'm more sympathetic to Tevye on this one.
I may never be able to marry and have kids because of my faith and yeah, it sucks. That being said, religion and belief DOES matter, (I can tell you some horror stories...I know one Catholic prolifer who married a pro-abortion Wiccan...yeah, didn't end well).
I would also point out that Chava would have had to formally renounce Judaism to marry her choice.
Had I been in Tevye's shoes I would have done what he did. I do however appreciate that they showed that for him it was painful too though
@@TheTibmeister you are very kind
I can understand Tevye's pain.
still, if chava birthed sons their hitbollelus it was tevye's fault
this reminds me of bubbi hertzogovina Kohen z''l (zalman?), if she wasn't excommunicated i could have been a Jew
I can certainly feel the grief weighing down on the parents' hearts.
"On the other hand, how can I turn my back on my faith-my people? If I bend so far, I'll break! On the other hand...NO! There is no other hand. No, Chavaleh! No, no!"
I have a lot of respect for Tevye.
Look, we all probably have things which if our family did it, we'd cut them off and they are well known.
Maybe not so much religion, but let's be honest we all have our taboos and limits
I've seen this scene probably two dozen times and it still hurts my heart. I have a marrying age daughter and I can't imaging having to disown her. Truly powerful scene.
Not according to the Jewish beliefs of the time.
He kept trying and trying but ultimately sometimes people can only try so much....first the daughter without an arranged marriage, then the daughter with an outsider to the community,.....had the boy in question been anyone else i think he may have listened but the fact he was from the group of people that despised his people down to ruining his other daughters wedding? How could he accept that considering all he and his families before him have been taught....in such a small community to tell the people you trade with for your lively hood that you have someone like that in your family now? But even at the end he somewhat acknowledges her like he may actually write to her from America- if she survived.....my mom told me the place she mentioned she was going was actually worse for jews then the area she grew up in
@FRANCO PEREZ
Who are you to judge? You are arrogant.
You don't understand this movie at all.
@FRANCO PEREZ
You obviously DON'T understand him. I suspect that you are an anti-Semite.
FRANCO PEREZ
Your logic is amazing.
Maybe if Chava had married Fyedka in more peaceful times, Tyeve wouldn't be so hard to her. In dark times, in times of persecutions when nothing is certain, tradition, belief all these ''conservative'' things to us nowadays, are the only things that have left to the people, all people, Christians, Jews, etc. Moreover, Tyeve's cheerful mood changes through the movie, even before Chava's marriage and remember that one of his daughters is on Siberia, that was just too much for him.
Orthodox Jews are still pretty hard when it comes to this issue. Don't marry outside of Judaism. He or she can convert if that is what G-d wills.
There were no peaceful times if I remember history correctly. In fact, now that nearly all Jews are gone from Russia, times haven't gotten so much better.
not really.
tbh even today if you value your religion at all, I don't think interfaith marriages really work.
I got stories
Its not like Chava and Fedya would have a better time among Russian Orthodox folk. They would really have to leave and go where no one knew them.
Here's the thing, he tried to accept his daughter and the young man, he tried the "on the other hand" thing.
But he couldn't do it. People are talking about Reb tevye like he's terrible, but they forget he is just a man.
The first daughter asked him to break his deal so she could marry the one she loved. Reb was conflicted, but was able to come around because they spoke before it all happened.
The second daughter came to him with her husband to be and TOLD him they were getting married, outright said it was going to happen, and he was able to (with some thought) come around and agree to it.
Now we have this daughter. She ran off and got married without telling Anyone then came back to the father to get his acceptance AFTER THE FACT.
He has bent back, then bent back further, then he was finally asked to bend too far.
He is a father, this is true, but he also just a human. In today's modern progressive climate it is common to say "accept whatever is asked of you. If you have to bend, bend. If you have to break your back, you'd better rip your spine out and get accepting"
He does not have to accept turning her back on her people. No excuse at all that justifies..
I love that Tevye has so much integrity. This must have been devastating for him.
I agree. However, even though he doesn't have to accept it (as is his right), he shouldn't say that his daughter is dead to him. That right there is going a little too far. He can keep his faith intact by not agreeing with the marriage, but I think he inadvertently brings it to the breaking point by denying his own daughter.
i agree...and lets be honest....most of us have lines where if family or friends crossed it, we'd cut them out.
I'll promise you even some progressive people have things they won't accept
@@yourfavoriteshiba7645 actually yes he does. to marry Fredyka she would have had to apostize, in Orthodox Judaism when that happens you are supposed to sit shiva for them...basically they are dead to you and you must treat them as such under Jewish law.
We have 6 son's, three have married Christian women. They are lovely beautiful women.
Our First Chanukah at my son's home, I was taken aback by the Christmas tree in the living room. I love my children, I would never turn my back on them.
Did your sons who married the Christians have to convert to Christianity and give up their faith? And by accepting the other faith they totally turn their back on what you believed and were brought up on? Because that's what happens when you marry outside the faith and have to embrace another faith. I'm all for inter-religous marriage provided one party does not have to convert. But in some places like in my country you have to give up your religion especially when you marry a Muslim. And it's a one way street. Let's say a few years from now the marriage ends and you want to go back to your original religion, you can't.
Urbanite Urbanizer I think that depends on whether religion is defined as a personal belief or a social construct. Perhaps it is both. One can always return in one’s own way. If others do not accept you as you are, isn’t that their failure?
Are they christian, or Catholic? There is a big difference.
If they are christian, you should teach them about messianic Judaism. It will help bring both Christianity and Judaism into 1.
KingIceHunter Catholics are Christians. I think you may mean to distinguish between Catholics and Protestants, but that leaves out Coptic & all Eastern Orthodox rites.
Kathryn Rikess thing is this is today’s thinking . I don’t believe you’d have the same mindset
Good for you Tevye.
Think of it from another point of view: What holds that community together in the face of incredible hardship, oppression, and poverty? Tradition, the idea of a shared set of beliefs that give support and solace and meaning to people who would otherwise give into hopelessness and become a desperate and cruel rabble. When you undermine all that, what is left. And before you scoff, you sitting in front of your laptop with a full belly and you're biggest concern being finding a wifi access point when you go to the coffee shop, say a prayer for those who have nothing and have had to endure privations throughout history, finding a way to create communities that would endure across generations.
Chava made her choice. Perhaps she was too young and naïve to fully appreciate what it would mean. Perhaps she thought she could have both. Perhaps she would have made the same choice if she had known. But I appreciate that in the end, the musical stayed true to its core principles.
This typifies the pain parents feel when their children leave for their own lives. Going off to school, marriage, moving, etc. Very powerful. I think about this scene a lot.
Watch the movie
This scene is about the inner struggle for the ideals of faith in God.
Was it offensive to clarify that my very dear?
It is a goal for a man to perform songs from another era that were performed by women and vice versa❤
We find exactly what we are missing.
Do we know what we are missing?
The biggest thing I noticed is that with the other two daughters their fiancees' came with them. She came alone, showing that her choice marry left her all alone.
That hits me the most, begging your father the accept you and your husband yet your husband doesn't even come with you.
He wanted to come with her, even wanted to speak for them, but Chava insisted he didn't.
he would have probably made things worse, and as the comment below states, he suposedly wanted to come with her but she did not want it
The Chavala song never fails to make me cry. I played it for my daughter's bat mitzvah
My dad did this to me heartbreaking 😭😭😭We never spoke again he died 2 year's ago 30 years he kept silent
If this happened to me i would be in the role of Tevye.
Not sure how much this is worth, but i can't imagine such a decision being made without some sense of loss or pain
Tovia is spot on!
@Holly Entel I'm so sorry. I hope you find peace. ❤️
I loved this play from the first time I saw it, but the second act has always broken my heart, especially this part.
Love this movie
I cried every time I watch this scene who so powerful
This is still so common in my country- India. Boys and girls from different faiths fall in Love and they always end up in a situation where they have choose between parents and love 😔
I always thought Tevye was unreasonable here, that he was so hard-headed that he couldn't accept the love his own daughter had for her husband-to-be. His religion was clouding his judgement, preventing him from understanding, and so sad for him.
Now, as an adult, I see the opposite. Tevye loved his daughters to his core, even manipulating things for the first two to be with the ones they loved. But this daughter's choice alienated her from her father's very core, the faith that guided him through life, the so-touching personal moment-by-moment relationship with God, that she arrogantly chose to challenge. She expected him to yield to her choice, yet his own integrity made that impossible. "I'll break", meaning he would lose his own self identity, his intimacy with God, making life meaningless.
Until you have a child make a marriage choice, a willful, unrepentant, destructive adulterous choice for example, and demand that you accept it, I don't think you can understand Tevye. At this point in life, sadly, I do. A son you love more than anything, doing something you cannot accept, rebelling against the core value system of who you are, and his whole upbringing, is a pain I hope few experience. It's simply awful, and I have a complete and deep empathy for Tevye here.
A lot of parents have been in that situation, and it is truly, truly difficult. All you can do is keep loving them, even if you can never support their decision. This is the choice that Tevye eventually makes (strongly suggested by the willingness to be in contact through the mail).
Dang man. I'm sorry.
@@calwells5612 Damn, it's no fun being a parents. It's a thankless job. While I love and admire my parents, I knew I could never be as selfless as them. So I choose never to be a parent and have never regretted it. Salute to all parents who keep loving their children even when they break their heart.
I understand this situation from the son's side. This scene brings me to uncontrollable tears to this day. Leaving your parents faith to follow your own path, knowing that you will lose them even though they love you is the hardest things I ever have lived through and still do.
I understand the father's side too. His faith is who he is and I love my father wholly.
But as Jesus said ...man was not made for the sabbath....but the sabbath was made for men ....and that is the problem with organized religion ....
little bird ... little Chavale
Spielberg wants to make a sequel to this I heard....
Tevye's right, she earned it.
Why did I look this up on my lunch break? Now I have to go back to work with a red puffy face:(
This happens a lot in my country when a non Muslim converts to marry a Muslim. Marriages between Muslims and non Muslims are not recognised in my country. A non Muslim has to convert to Islam before he or she can marry a Muslim and that's heartbreaking for many non Muslim parents.
In My Mom and Dad's day you didn't date out of your faith - If you were a Catholic and Irish that's what you married some people did but not many . I can understand her Father's point of view
same here. its very important to keep any religion alive if you are apart of it. the problem is as the more who marry those who are not in the religion and they dont convert then that familys ENTIRE religious means is lost. it happens all the time with a jewish mom or dad and a christian mom or dad. then the family either all goes christian or there is no faith in any religion at all which is pretty sad to say the least. thats why so many people today are "half jewish" and if people dont keep the religion alive then there will be no Judaism what so ever. i just hope i can one day support my family and religion.
i still have that attitude tbh
What people need to understand about Tevye's predicament is, by marrying outside of the Jewish faith, and going behind her family's back to do so to boot, Chava has effectively abandoned Judasim. To accept her doing so, would be tantamount to betraying his own faith, which he has followed his whole life. Tevye is clearly a loving father, but he realises that some things are too important to risk destroying for that sake of his love.
It's a tragedy but life happens. I understand both sides. I had a wonderful Pappa .Nine daughters now I know how much he loved us.
I asked myself when I first saw this scene why Tevye was being unreasonable to Chava. She just married a guy she loved. Fredya wasn't the enemy. He was just a simple farmer. He never forced anyone off their land or attacked Jewish people. This scene made me sad for poor Chava. But I'm sure it must've been hard for Tevye, too. Having to choose between following your beliefs and denying your daughter. This movie was excellent and well-written.
What you don't understand is that he was indeed the enemy.
Both his other daughters married a fellow Jew and Chava did not do that.
She married one of those who regularly massacred them.
@@TyonKree I don't think Fyedka was inherently guilty of persecuting and harassing Jews, but he was part of their culture; and unlike Motel or Perchik, Tevye had absolutely no way of knowing what kind of man he was.
@@g.Raider Tevye didn't want to know.
@OtherWorlds AllWorlds I mean can you blame them, throughout history the jews have constantly been persecuted even during times of peace. I'd say it's pretty understandable that after years of being attacked and purposefully seperated they'd grow some kind of "us vs them" ideology.
@OtherWorlds AllWorlds Mmmm, I guess I understand that, though I hope we can both agree that choosing to be seperate doesn't mean choosing to be tormented for that.
:"No! There is no other Hand!" That breaks my heart every time I see this.
Sometimes there is no other hand.
My great grandmother was disowned by her Lutheran parents for marrying a catholic. Her siblings kept in touch but her parents never spoke to her again…
not gonna lie i cried
Yes so did I.
....no, there is no other hand.
...Genius
Thanks for putting this up :)
Rachmaninoff's 2nd Concerto got a lot of mileage. From Tevye to Eric Carmen.
People are judging Tevye far too harshly, with modern sensibilities. It was a different time back then, and a different place. As Tevye explains in the beginning, your clan (your faith, your community) was all you had. Everyone else was the Other, a potential foe (as the Orthodox Church had proven to the Jews many times throughout Russian history, and as the Bolsheviks were soon to prove). Marrying outside the faith, to Tevye and any other traditional Jew, would have been nothing less than blood treachery. Small wonder Tevye can't bring himself to accept it.
Heartbreaking for both characters
It’s crazy how times have changed, at least somewhat.
My grandparents have stated they would have disowned my mother had she married someone who wasn’t Catholic or Lutheran. Hard to believe someone would disown their child for something like that.
I suppose that’s the whole moral quandary of the movie. Tevya having to open his mind and decide if his traditions, or the integrity and happiness of his daughters come first. I mean it’s 25 years after he’s married that he even asks his wife if he loves him, the concept of love seems quite foreign to him.
in this modern era....i would have done what Tevye did.
Look, maybe it isn't religion but if you value anything at all there are probably lines where if a family member or friend crossed it you would cut them out.
@@brainfarts5352 you kidding? Catholic, Muslim, satanist, as if I care what religion my kid’s SO follows. That doesn’t mean anything to me, and this is coming from a Catholic.
Acting is off the charts.
This is the hart , the center, the nucleus of this movie!!!!!!!.."".the fiddler on the roof= al filo de la navaja"" in spanish!!!!!
Spanish language
wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language
@@junesilvermanb2979 ????????
I feel his pain.
In the original movie Tevye the Milkman, with Maurice Schwartz as Tevye the story played out very differently. Chava went to live with her husband's family and was miserable. She escaped back to her father's house and there was much tension between the two families. People have to remember the times. You can't place todays values on actions taken back then. The gentile and Jewish cultures in Anatevka did not integrate well. There was just a pogrom. The Jews would be expelled. Tevye's reaction was not unusual for what would have happened in real life during those times. th-cam.com/video/IMNP72gs1nM/w-d-xo.html
You are telling the absolute truth. Jewishness was not a trait, characteristic or lifestyle Chava "adopted". It was who she was. It was her entire identity, her faith, her heritage her culture and it exceeded, by several levels, the concept of simply marrying against her parents' wishes. The two cultures, especially back then, could never successfully blend because Chava could never cease being who and what she was at the core .. a young Jewish woman! The harsh realities she would inevitably encounter within her husband's antisemitic, gentile culture would certainly circumvent her best efforts to to adapt. Within the context of the times, Chava would certainly lose.
It's heartbreaking to watch but also paints a really strong image of the social issues of the time. And to give Tevye credit, he is not completely obstinate and willing to think it over before rejecting his daughter, and in one of the last scenes of the film he offers a little remark suggesting she isn't in fact dead to him. Maybe one part of it is his realising that Fyedka, though a gentile, does not hate the Jews like many other Russian gentiles do..?
It kills mecwhen Chava screams But Papa! Papa! PAPA!!!!!!!!
Haim Topol😍😍😍😍😍😍
5:05 forward is a very memorable scene for me.
This is life can be going great then ull be in shock an ur hole world will be upside down ,everone on earth will go through it 3 maybe 4 times ,,if ur in a good time in joy it because one is coming ,an ur ur going through it will pass I hope 🤞
who was the actress who played Chava. she was so pretty
Her name is Neva Small. Born in 1952, she debuted with the New York City Opera at age ten, then played several roles on and off Broadway before starring in this film. She also recorded four singles in 1966 and a solo album in 2004. I had no idea she was 19 years old in this role!
@@ericwent4931 thanks
Aceptar que el amor sobrepasa las espectativas, tira abajo lo que no se sostiene,... qué bonito eres Topol.!
Please always be with you’re children.
Sad but true. A Jewish girl does notttttty marry a non Jew. That is the law. We've kept it for 5000 + years and stand by it eternaly.
Very good!!!
Why? Many things and beliefs that are 5000+ years old have changed or even gone all together.
@@gamer-ff6mh jews do not change with the times. The Torah bible is infinite wisdom....
There are consequences that need to be considered and factored in to such decisions. Chavaleh had to be, or at the very least should have been, fully prepared for this outcome...having been born and raised an orthodox Jew ✡️ in this time and place.
Chava married a Russian… not only that but an Orthodox Christian.
The same people that were ransacking the village and attacking Tevye’s family, persecuting the Jewish faith… Tevye had no choice but to view Chava’s love for the enemy as the ultimate betrayal.
👍😢
Tevye could not deal with Chava marrying a Christian.
How disheartening for a father.....
shubham gupta we build our own prisons of belief
@@dougr.2398 may be yes,its difficult to depart from your beliefs
Komal gupta change is not always growth and growth is not always change, but we are capable of both (and are likely to experience change more often than we realize or desire)
Fiddler On The Roof is not animation. It's live-action. Maybe it's because of the little bird scene,
A wondrous scene filled with wondrous music. It is worth noting that Tevye couldn't forgive his daughter for marrying a Gentile, but was offended when the Gentile constable thought he was joking when he wished the constable had been a Jew. It didn't occur to him that it was a two-way street.
Because it wasn't a 2 way street in Russia at that time. The Jews were a small minority that was horribly persecuted. The two religions were not on equal terms.
He loves her, but she has married a Christian in a church. In Jewish law, if you are born a Jew; you and if you are a woman, your children, will always be Jewish. However, the two ways you would no longer be considered Jewish is to convert or to be married in a religious institution that is not a synagogue.
Chava married in a church. Not only has she married outside of her religion, she has put herself outside of her religion.
In the US something like half the Jews are married to non-Jews. It started mostly in the 60s and 70s, and the numbers keep growing higher. Studies have shown that by the third generation, that is, the initial couple’s grandchildren, will not be practicing Judaism. That is what terrifies Tevya, that Chava has left the religion and ways of living of her people, and her children would be the same until the time came where her grandchildren will not even know their forebears were once Jewish.
And if that doesn’t sound like a big deal; I know it doesn’t even to some other Jews these days, remember Christians and Jews mostly had adversarial relationships since about the third century C.E. Christians felt it was their duty to convert or failing that, to kill the Jews. The Crusaders figured it was easier to kill the European Jews nearby rather than travel all the way to the Holy Land to kill the Muslims and “take back” Jerusalem from the infidels. Jews and Muslims were, after all, equally infidels.
And of course, there were the pogroms all over Eastern Europe. My grandmother would tell me about her siblings who did not come from the US. Her brothers, she said, were taken away from the soldiers and “we never saw them again.” She showed me a picture of her younger sister with her husband and little boy. “The soldiers came and killed them.”
She grew up in what is now Belarus, at the beginning of the 20th century. But her experiences would have been similar to Tevya’s and Goldie’s. So the soldiers, and Fyodor is a soldier, are the enemy. Not just the enemy, but the brutal, barbaric enemy. And their daughter married one of those beasts? This would be huge to the parents. It’s not a matter of “ Hey,no problem! We’ll celebrate Chanukah AND Christmas!“ as in the US.
Motel: Even a poor taylor is entitled to some happiness! I promise you Rep Tevia your daughter will not starve!
Tevye: Well? When shall we have the wedding?
Perchik: I love her!
Tevye: Well, children. I've decided to give you my blessing AND my permission!
Chava: I beg you to accept us!
Tevya: NO!
Motel and perchik at least asked for permission/blessing on and on when Chava got married on her own (knowing their marriage is unacceptable within her family or at least her father's religion). Tevye made himself very clear in this song; he love his daughter but accept her means he rejected himself and if he bent that far he would break.
Maybe I’m the only one sad for Chava. There’s religion and there’s destiny. Fvedka treats her well and they have similar interests in books. She’s a Orthodox Jewish and he’s Orthodox Christian. Tevye saying “she’s dead to us” made me sad for Chava.
Discrimination is vile
I never knew about the pogroms till i watched this film the other night ...we were never taught about it in school. The whole of Europe was horrible to the jews ... learning about the pogroms upset me for days
Yessss
por favor, preciso assistir esse filme
It's called the fiddler on the roof
He never spoke to God again after this.
I am glad father know he loved her.He did not let go of his faith though.Both religions still believe jn the same God
it's sad, he disowned her because she married someone who wasn't Jewish. it would have been okay if her husband was jewish
Yes that is exactly the point Karen, Jewish ppl (as many other religions/races) did not marry outside their tribe, had all to do with safety. A tribes member would understand her way of life/thinking. The song "tradition" says it all. And another thing, most likely the ppl outside, her husbands family would not accept her too. She chose a difficult life, yes, out of love, that is true, but with a great sadness. And the Russians did treat the Jews really bad in those days, so there was a lot of grieve already. Seeing they were evicted at the end. (in the original book the story ends much worse, Tevje is alone, Golde is dead and the daughters scattered but for the musical they adjusted the end) So there was not much trust for the Russians by the Jewish community and that is why Tevye is so upset Chava married a Russian. In the days of the Czar, Jewish boys had to serve in the army for 20 years, from the age of 10 until they turned 30. Not so difficult to realise not many made it to that age. They were bullied and sought out, tried to get them baptised against their will was only one of the things done to them, there was totally no respect for their traditions or their lives. You should read the book, written by Bernice Rubens, called "Brothers", the first part of the book is situated in Russia of Tevye's time about 2 brothers serving in the Czars army. The book has 4 parts, all about 2 brothers of the next generation, the second parts plays out in Great Britain, the next in Germany and the last part in Russian/Israel. All volumes make it clear to see why it is such a risque to marry outside your own comfortable and safe tribe.
I mean, you have seen this movie right?
@@dtschuor459 Thanks for your kind comment. I too understand Tevye, doesn't mean I think it is right he cast her out, but that is beside the point. And yes, you are right, for centuries the Roma and Sinti have been treated real bad. The Jews were allowed to live in the cities, practice their religion, but that depended at the authorities and for most the Kings they lived under. They were still subjected to ridiculous rules. For instance during the late middle ages Jews were forced to wear a sign on their clothing so ppl could distinguish them. That is were Hitler came up with the idea of forcing Jews wearing a yellow star. Also during the middle ages Jews were forbidden to have access to the guilds (trade-unions where one had to be a member off otherwise you could not practice certain occupations). Every occupation had their own groups and memberships. Like carpenters, stonemason, painters, builders, etc. Few occupation were left out, like banker, actor, doctor (only for their own ppl) but the Jewish doctors were that good, many Christians found their way to them after dark to seek their help. It is a fact that today there are still many Jews working in the bankers world, also lots of Jewish artists, doctors. So the Jews had it a little better than the Roma, but were subjected to many rules and regulations and this went for al the European countries.
The Roma/Sinti had a harder life during the middle ages and were persecuted real bad. It was common practice to hunt them down, sell them as slaves or kill them. This was all sanctioned by the Government of those days. I never understood were this hate came from. Maybe "commoners" were jealous of their freedom, not being stuck in a life of strict Christian rules, or maybe they just didn't understand them or their way of life, and all to often people fear what they don't know and that fear made them want to destroy them.
During WWII both races had it bad. Both were to persecuted and both were bound to end in a concentration camp. Estimated figures are; Before WWII there were 947,500 Roma and Sinti living in Europe, 285,650 perished in the camps.
Even after WWII it took a while before the Roma got recognition as war casualties. In the Balkan countries even today they belong to a minority living in poverty, being analphabetic and in poor health conditions. If you are interested in the history of Roma you should watch the photo's by Josef Koudelka. I will give you a link. These pictures paint their lives in the sixties. (1967)They are heartbreaking and beautiful. Well, this comment has become much longer than I planned, sorry about that. Have a nice weekend, greetz from a Dutch lady.
www.magnumphotos.com/newsroom/society/josef-koudelka-gypsies/
@@DirkjeA
Nice Dutch lady, you have fulfilled every stereotype I have about the Dutch from the few Dutch exchange students I knew in college. Your English is fantastic, you are obviously well-informed, and you seem very kind and compassionate.
I read an interesting first hand account by a Roma man who was a teen during the Nazi occupation and he explained how even though it was awful for them in the camps (and leading up to that time) he knew the Jews were treated even worse. It was interesting to hear a different perspective, but still heartbreaking... His book was called "A Gypsy in Auschwitz" by Otto Rosenberg.
As far as the many centuries, I always loved the rebellious nature of Martin Luther and his common sense reform measures, but a couple of years ago I found out he was, as was normal I guess for his era, anti-Semitic. I was still disappointed by that, but I guess we are all human and subject to our own failings.
As far as Tevye's dilemma, I used to explain to my students that in my grandparent's generation (born 1915 and 1917 as first generation American immigrants) you did not marry outside of your religion. Too scandalous (we're Catholic). They always thought that sounded silly. Then I reminded them that in my parent's generation it was illegal many places in the US to marry someone of a different "race." (I hate using the word that way, I really prefer ethnicity, but that is how it was defined then...) Then I would suggest that perhaps we could consider that it might be okay for people of the same gender to marry one another one day. I did get push-back on that idea (they were aged 12-14) from some, but I know it opened the door for others. Now today, in the US, we have legal same sex marriage, but as I'm sure you know, we will have to fight to keep it. I see progress here, but it is maddeningly slow.
At any rate, I feel his pain and I respect his reasons. Ethically, it is just one movement too far. It is just such a sad part of the story when there is so much joy in many other parts of the musical.
Sorry for the missive. It is just so nice to talk to someone on TH-cam who is well-informed and interesting. Have a beautiful day, a lovely season, a Happy New Year to come. I hope for better here and everywhere in the world next year!
@@dtschuor459 Hello kind sir, thanks for your nice reply. I loved to read it for I also love communicating with other people that are educated and well-read. To me the length of your comment was something I really enjoyed. So, to react on the things you wrote:
Yes there is a book called "Tevye the Dairyman and other stories". Written by Sholom Aleichem (nickname) There is some info about it on Wikipedia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddler_on_the_Roof
I have visited New York with my mother in 1991 and we have been to Broadway to see the musical, played in the Wintergarden Theatre and Tevye was played by the famous Topol, the same as in the movie. I can tell you this was an experience of a lifetime. During the same visit we also saw another musical, Cats, also very beautiful, but to me it didn't held a candle next to Fiddler on the Roof.
But, to stay with books, I mentioned Bernice Rubens and her book "Brothers" and I can really recommend that should you want to read. It is about 4 generations of brothers, one following the tradition and the other struggling with traditions and wanting to assimilate real bad. I was so into that story, I could not stop reading before reaching "The End"... ;)
I don't know the book you mentioned by Otto Rosenberg "Gypsy in Auschwitz" but I will certainly go look for it. Thanks for bringing that one up. Did you know that Rosenberg is a typical Roma name and that there is well known trio, The Rosenberg Trio that make the most beautiful music a la Django Reinhardt. You can find them here on You Tube. Check them out if you like, they are really awesome. They are from Dutch origin but are known all over the world.
What you wrote about your grandparents sounds familiar. I think the concept was to marry within your own tribe, circle, race (I too don't like the word for the same reasons) worldwide. It was safe to marry in your own group of people, you were understood, you knew the rules and what was expected of you. You also knew they would not see you as different. There is this saying in Dutch, and I don't know if it exists in English, so this is the literal translation "Two religions on one pillow, there will be a devil in the middle". However I don't think it was ever forbidden to marry outside your own here in Holland, it was just not done. (exceptions occurred of course) In those cases ppl went through with it, often it ended up in a divorce. Strange your students thought it a silly concept, while in reality it was only one, maybe two generations ago. My aunt immigrated to the US during the 50ties. Here had just ended WWll and she was rather touchy about racism. When she entered a bus, she always deliberately sat in the back, in the zone for coloured pp and got kicked of the bus for it several times. And that too is only 2 generations ago. By the way, where did your grandparents come from as I may ask? Well, that is it for now (maybe we better communicate at Facebook) :) Wish you a great week, stay safe. Greetz.
Flat landers .... It's the only part Where the fiddler comes off the roof
I understand where Tevya is coming from but still doesn't mean I have to agree with it
because you hate the jew
Honestly, as horrible as it is, I understand Tevye's denial. It's extreme, but his devotion to Jewish tradition, culture and religion is so extreme. It's a horrible choice, because he ends up betraying one or the other.
On another note, the storytelling in the music of this scene is incredible. "On the other hand" when he talks about denying Chava, the music had a little tribute to Chava's theme. Then when he denies her, back to the Fiddler's tradition theme.
Tradition and faith ..more important than a daughter.....? ....if I’ll bend that far I’ll break .....ahhhh religion ....many religions..but one God .....
Many chocolate candies and pastries, but one cocoa bean.
As a father of 3 daughters I am a devout evangelical as was my late wife I can understand Tevyas plight. My 3 daughters all married men with beliefs like ours. My 7 grand children are being raised in our faith but I can understand his plight.
It's so sad to lose a child like that. A papa shouldn't have to bury his own child.
But he chose to ....didn’t have to ..one God for all ....
FRANCO PEREZ
No, she chose to cut herself off from her family and her people. Tevye didn’t want that.
David Messer
Yes he chose his tradition over his daughter...and that’s against God
Nelson Vega
She violated the fifth commandment, and that is against God.
FRANCO PEREZ
Are you a moron, or just ignorant?
I just watched the movie and Tevye made it quite clear that if she married him, that she was cutting herself off from her family, her religion, and her people. She CHOSE to do it anyway, and the results were exactly what Tevye said.
You apparently know nothing about historic Judaism, or for that matter, nearly every historic culture.
You also don’t realize that people actually believed their religion once upon a time.
Well, He shouldn't have disowned her, but the least she could have done is told her parents what she planned to do instead of letting them find out from a priest, after the fact.
A catastrophic brake for a Jewish culture and philosophy continuity. The menace for Jewish life in the last 200 years.
Watched this part as a conservative Christian kid with my family and felt bad for both of them, but mostly Tevye... watching it now as an adult after having (unwillingly) left my faith and... it’s haunting. I haven’t told my family yet. I’m terrified of this. I can’t help remembering that my parents never outright condemned his actions here. There was even a hint “well... if YOU ever married outside the faith...” Gah... what a horrible thing to have to wonder about from my own family :(
Oh, and his line about “if I bend that far, I’ll break.” WHAT DO YOU THINK CHAVA DID? SHE BENT THAT FAR, AND SHE DIDN’T BREAK.
No, she just left her identity as a Jewish woman, and she left her family without telling them
Why are so judgemental. They were decent people looking after there family. No can predicate where love strickes. Isn't what life is about.
You’ve *unwillingly* left your faith? How does that work? You can always talk to God. I recommend you try to do so! Try also to pray to His Mother, Mary. She is a very powerful intercession and can help us in our relationship to God. If you don’t know where to start, I can point you to some stuff. The Rosary is a great place to start :)
@@thusundi1963 I left my RC faith willingly, I simply didn't believe. If you don't believe, no amount of prayer can make you change. For me, praying to to God or Mary will be pointless, it would be just like praying to Santa. One simple thing made me lose my religion. Everybody in my church thought they were perfect because they went to confession & mass, yet when they had the opportunity to prove they were good people, they didn't. Words mean nothing if you don't act like it too. Their disgust & pettiness when I fell for my girlfriend was appalling, & made me see thorough the charade to view their hypocrisy clearly. It cost me my family, apart from my non-religious oldest brother, when they asked me to chose between her & them. I asked them to articulate their argument, & when I asked why, they simply said because, & nothing else. Fortunately, my parents & I have a great relationship now, I kept in touch with them until I wore them down, showing them that I still love them & always will. I just don't want to follow their religion. I never see my other brother, who was my best friend growing up. He has been a hard loss. I'm still with my girlfriend, now my wife, over 18 years later. My motto in life is simply follow the Golden Rule. I don't simply say nice things with no meaning behind them, but I try to do them, putting myself out for others. It's the only way I can be true to me.
@@shedevil50337 Wow. I’m sorry that you’ve lost contact with some family. That’s always hard. I’m also disappointed to hear of any pride by your Church members. It’s easy to fall into the trap of pride and vanity for many people. It’s important to remember that we are Catholics for the sake of Christ, not for the sake of other people. I could just go join a club if I only wanted to meet people. Like 1 Saint John 4:19 tells us: “Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us.” I hope you can bring yourself to consider God’s love for you. If you’re still hurt by your treatment at the hands of Catholics, please remember that God is perfect, and will only do what is best for you, if only you’ll cooperate with His will.