I met Alan Alda once, and got his autograph- a fact I'm sharing here because for once I won't have to explain who Alan Alda is. Or why I was so excited.
No indeed, you won't have to. Just like maybe for once, people get the reference of my screenname. Alan Alda is a fine man, too. And although some MASH episodes or some of the tropes they use haven't aged as well, it's general spirit remains relevant to this day. I go back to it and watch the entire show every couple of years.
When I was in the Army we had this guy in our unit that was so effeminate he made Carmen Diaz in a bikini look butch. We all knew and didn't care. As a matter of fact he would play on it and have us laughing so hard. Like me he was a medic and one platoon always asked for him when they had to go out. Because they knew he would do everything in his power to get them back to base if anything happened. He ended up proving it by shielding two wounded with his body when fired at with RPGs. He lost his right arm below the elbow and scars down his back and legs. When I got there those two wounded soilders were yelling at him to stay. It damn near broke my heart when I saw how bad he was hurt. Good news he lived and today he's happily married to someone that just dotes on him.
God bless you for sharing this story; whether or not I feel homosexuality is right, I feel a person's sexual orientation has absolutely NO bearing on their character and personality.
@@trenae77 It should have no bearing on anything, from the way they are treated by others to their rights. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with these people being people, and as such they should be treated like any other person.
Things are very different now. Ironically even after DADT was repealed homophobia is super prevalent in the ranks now. Especially since trump accelerated open bigotry in society. If you're openly gay, you're allowed to serve but the men especially will ostracise you and be passive aggressive in their harassment and wanting you to feel unwelcome. That's how deeply ingrained this right wing rebellion against progress is. Sharing close quarters no longer helps to see the humanity in someone different than you. This country is so divided that even in the military different groups hate each other with a seething passion now and it's only a matter of time before major fractures happen in the armed forces. A gay friend of mine enlisted right after DADT was repealed in 2011 and all the other men in the Army were nice and friendly toward him despite him being openly gay. When trump was elected suddenly he started seeing homophobia like he'd never seen in or out of the military and he retired as soon as he could because he suddenly felt unsafe among his fellow soldiers.
I appreciate your videos. I'm a straight guy in his 50s who had his adolescence in a mostly homophobic peer environment. It wasn't until my early 20s that I found out one of my flatmates was gay. That was the first time I had to actually confront my dogma as a human ... about a human. I remember the moment... about 15 minutes after accidentally finding out Gerry was gay... I had the epiphany that it had no effect to my life or friendship when I thought he was straight... therefore it has no effect knowing he was gay all that time of fellowship. And then... I realized that my friend could not tell me he was gay because he was sure I would reject him (as I was a vocal product of my peer upbringing). I felt hideously ashamed... but more... I felt terrible empathy for Gerry that THIS was the life he felt he was dealt. Hiding his love and joys from friends, and yes.. family. The next evening we sat and talked. He was my brother. He still lived a closeted life from his family, but in our circle of friends he could be loud and proud. He could talk about this love or that. He had the support from his rough beasts of youth to let his relationships into our circle in the same way our lady friends were expected entrance. Less than a year later, Gerry would pass from an untreated respiratory infection. I found him. And our circle grieved together with his boyfriend. Dunno why I am sharing all this... I guess I just miss him and wished I had my healing earlier so he could have that acceptance for longer. Your videos inform me and support the journey that I started in my youth. They let me see the struggle and as I feel it... I feel my buddy. I do not call myself and "ally". That denotes a separate entity. I'm a friend and I am thankful for where our culture has progressed. Thank you.
Brian, it was lovely reading your comment! I am a 24 year old bi girl and I love how you have to come to understand that your ignorance/actions were a by-product of your environment - I wish everyone possed such an amazing trait like yours where they acknowledge their biases and prejudice then the world would become a little less cruel & isolating...if only everyone had the amount of empathy you carry with you! I am sure Gerry appreciated your support even if it was delayed. And I am sorry for your loss...if there is another life beyond this, Gerry would be there waiting for you
Comments like this are a fantastic reminder that a lot of homophobia comes from unchallenged beliefs growing up and that people can change said beliefs for the better. (I mean, it's also worth noting that A LOT of it is based in what people were taught growing up. Even though people should be responsible for what they believe in, I understand that challenging beliefs that you were taught to believe growing up is not an easy task. Anyway, those two sentences are about a whole other rant, so I'm going to stop that rant there before it begins.) Thank you for choosing friendship. As someone who has been in his shoes, I've found that friendships with straight male friends have always meant the most to me. I can't even pin down why those mean the most to me, but they just do. So, if he was anything like me, I'm sure your friendship meant more to him than you might have even realized.
Yeah, those early seasons are rough sledding. But it mostly holds up remarkably well. It's stunning what they managed to pull off, and remain so popular, too.
Much too long of a story, but a short version was, I grew up looking up to the character Hawkeye, and Alan Alda in general. When I finally came to the personal realization that I was queer, of the many things running through my mind was that a man, who didn't even know I existed would have been disgusted with me (A general rule I have is not to look into the person views or opinions of actors from older media I like to avoid being disgusted) But I was actually surprised when I learned that Alda is a pretty good guy. To this day, MASH is one of my favorite shows in the world.
The author of the novel that M*A*S*H was originally based on was apparently something of a Big C Conservative and absolutely haaaaaated the progressive direction that Alan Alda & Co steered the series into. Which fills me with delight!
The original movie was seen as lefty/hippy, but it would so NOT be considered so today. It was pretty damn bad. Not unfunny, but funny to people whose sense of humor is "ha, you're fat and ugly and probably gay!" Everyone was drunk and stoned and behaving the right ass. The television show was miles better, even if some at the time didn't think so. The funny thing is, my very conservative military dad hated the movie, but loved the television show.
@Green Mamba Games I do not think it was inaccurate for the times it portrayed though. Rampant sexism was still the norm and cultural stereotypes ran free.
Well, if anything I had no idea this timeless and incredible series was based on a book. As it is, there isn't going to be another M*A*S*H* anytime soon. That's kind of sad really.
@@Olimar92Well, there aren't any more M*A*S*H units in the US military anymore since, I think 2005/6 (not quite sure), when the last one was deactivated, so any re-makes or reboots would have to be set before that point in time...The novel is worth a read anyway, it's " M*A*S*H - a novel about army doctors" by Richard Hooker (yes, pretty sure that's a pen name, lol).
@@gozerthegozarian9500 Being a show about an Army Hospital wasn't what I meant. I meant a show with such incredible writing, so much so that it could be serious and comedic and it all fit without seeming out of place.
I’ve recently rewatched M*A*S*H*, specifically for critical thinking about Klinger. I have come to the conclusion that Klinger is a celebration of crossdressing for fun and for mental health. It’s his way of saying “I am not okay with the army, I am here under protest.” It’s his way of keeping sane in an insane situation.
I think there's an episode where that last part is nearly explicitly stated: when Potter takes over and forces him back into uniform, Klinger starts breaking out in hives, and then Hawkeye diagnoses the rash as psychosomatic and prescribes dresses... or something like that?
The only episode I remember when Klinger doesn't wear a dress (for a large part of the episode) is when he wants to re-up because of something relating to his wife, by the end he regrets doing so and returns to wearing dresses to get out of the military
@@Rime_in_Retrograde Yeah, he stopped along the way somewhere. There's a SCREAM of a line at some point when Klinger is wearing the standard uniform and Radar looks at him and says, "Don't I know your sister?"
@@andrewmalinowski6673 I don't think Klinger was married and after Radar leaves he spent most of the rest of the series in regular uniform. I clearly remember that in the final season he falls for a Korean woman and in the final episode he gives her a wedding dress he made and has to explain why he had it. One of the ironies of the final episode is that Klinger, who had spent the vast majority of the series trying to get out of the army and back to the U.S, decides to stay in Korea to help find his new fiancée's parents.
I googled "Friend of Dorothy" and found this as part of a much larger Wikipedia article about the phrase: "In the early 1980s, the Naval Investigative Service was investigating homosexuality in the Chicago area. Agents discovered that gay men sometimes referred to themselves as 'friends of Dorothy'. Unaware of the historical meaning of the term, the NIS believed that there actually was a woman named Dorothy at the center of a massive ring of homosexual military personnel, so they launched an enormous and futile hunt for the elusive 'Dorothy', hoping to find her and convince her to reveal the names of gay service members." I served 20 years in the USAF and found the account of that investigation to be both entirely credible and hilarious.
My knowledge of all 18 years of my childhood as a USAF dependent has me cackling at this. Then again, my COMMISSIONED OFFICER FATHER found out a maintenance person was deaf. So we ALL learned at least ASL alphabet and some simple words so we could communicate with him. Mom was a HIPPIE, btw. Lol We thought for a time my only brother was at least Bi ... no big deal. I *personally* am Bi with a strong hetero tendency. But I *am* Bi.
My late neighbor was a WW2 Drill Sargent who served the nation with honor. It wasn’t until he was 86 (he died at 90) that he was able to admit that he was gay. This video would have made him cry with joy.
That's just horrible. Having to hide part of your identity - and whom you love, or just have a crush on - for nearly all your life? That's just cruel. And of course: with every gay soldier carefully keeping a lid on it, the army gets to keep its "no gays here!" image, and every single one of them is alone with his fears.
How sad that, in 2021, some folks (even well-meaning, "pro-gay" people like yourself) still think in terms of someone having to "admit" or "confess" to being gay, as if they should feel guilt about their sexual orientation.
@@Julia-lk8jn - Not quite what you might think… it was a very different time. He married and had kids. His “best friend” whom he met in the army, did the same. They lived near each other, their families knew each other, they vacationed together and shared a bed together occasionally. Their “special friendship” was a secret their entire lives, and they absolutely did not consider themselves gay even though they were.
@@winsboy - I think you’re projecting, I said no such thing. I met them in the 80’s, they lived apart in the same condominium complex, keeping separate residences after one’s divorce, and the other was widowed, for “appearances.” They would occasionally stay over at the others house, but only if they thought no one was looking. It took years for them to admit to anyone, even me, even each other, that they had anything other than a lifelong friendship. I remember asking them as one was caring for the other on his deathbed dying from cancer, and both denied it. It was an entirely different time, they did what they felt they had to, and lived the best way they thought they could. It was both odd, touching, and a little hard to grasp… but they had been in love since their 20’s, lived a life as together as they could both accept. To attempt to apply modern relationship or gay relationship norms, is to not understand what it must have been like to be gay back then.
@Julia -- I've often blasted Bill Clinton's agreeing to "Don't Ask, Don't tell" for his blindness to how that hurt service men and women. Imagine being in your barracks and not being to hang your partner's photo in your locker like everyone else ...because that would be "telling."
I remember as a kid being very struck by the Quantum Leap episode about this subject. Al, a Navy veteran, quite a bit older, is deeply unsure about the idea of serving alongside a gay man. But at the end of the episode he changes his mind and when Sam is surprised he says mildly, "I was wrong. I'm not always right." Hearing an older man say that so simply really touched me.
@@wordforger Haha as much as it can be measured, though to be fair Al was a pilot and as we all know from the documentary Top Gun, Navy pilots are never gay.
Thanks for covering this episode. I'm a 2005 Don't Ask - Don't Tell discharge from the Air Force. I was an Arabic translator, and a good one, cut loose right when we needed specialists in that language the most. The military's decision-making process is confounding to this day.
As a gay Arabian. Im sorry for what happened to you but at least you're respected now and got your basic human rights. I wish I was you. Because I will never get mine here.
@@VampireNewl Afghanistan is not an Arab country and no one there speaks Arabic. It's not even in the middle east. You don't even know about the country you invaded for 20 years no wonder your country lost.
How much I respect the Army, I suspect you Job would have been wicketly One-sided. I know im cynical, but from what our Boys said, your boys chefs there not interested in what Natives said.
It helps that Hawkeye has become an icon for bisexuals everywhere in the time since the show aired (maybe even while the show aired, but sadly I have no evidence for that). It was fantastic to see a character who so brazenly flirted with other men, even if it was under the guise of a joke. He even gets a smooch in if memory serves
@juan abee - You are so wrong to present your sadly misinformed personal opinions as scientific facts. Especially with surrogacy as an option, gay people can procreate with their own DNA if they choose to do so, just like heterosexuals. Do you similarly condemn a heterosexual person who is childless (by choice or by medical reasons) as a "creature that exists for no reason, just consumes limited resources, and pollutes as a dead ends in DNA," or do you hypocritically refrain from using such demeaning characterizations only in this particular case? Even without children, brilliant and creative gay people throughout history like Alan Turing (the cryptanalyst who deciphered the secret codes used by Nazi Germany under Hitler during WWII) and Michaelangelo Buonarroti (the Renaissance artist) have made significant contributions and lasting legacies to humankind that you apparently take for granted - accomplishments that are very likely to have much greater impact than what you can manage to do in your own lifetime, even if you choose to breed. Having offspring does not automatically make a heterosexual person a good parent or human being, shown by the fact there are already far too many "unwanted" kids who are abandoned, abused and/or neglected by their irresponsible biological parents. Your insinuations with gay people and abortion clinics are illogical and ridiculous, because gay people have to make deliberate and conscious choices to have children via adoption and/or surrogacy, as opposed to the typically unplanned births that many heterosexuals end up putting up for adoption, aborting or raising grudgingly. Your disparagement of Islam can just as well apply to numerous spiritual leaders who mentally, physically and sexually abuse their own followers involved in Catholicism, other religions and cults for years under their veneers of false respectability and sanctimony. Way back in 1973 (almost half a century ago!), the American Psychiatric Association no longer considered homosexuality to be a mental illness. Your arguments are self-contradictory, unjustifiable and fallacious. Obviously you have not evolved with the times, and still have much to learn in order to join the rest of humanity to live in the real world in the 21st Century.
@juan abee LOL, how is evolution relevant to the question of equal rights? Like even slightly? "Childless people don't contribute to evolution of the species" -- okay, and? Who cares?
just so you know, straight guys who are completely comfortable with their sexuality have no problem with gays. My best friend from college was gay and I wouldn't hesitate to "flirt" with him. Was liberating for me, because the conservative trashbin I came from always tried to brand me as gay because I could relate to anyone.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was drafted in 1970 and served honorably in the US Army until 1972. Part of the draft physical had a question about sexuality and we were forced to go between physical exam stations wearing nothing but underwear, possibly to see if we'd be aroused. Like so many others, I lied to get in to the service for the reason you stated: A 4-F status would have been public and the reason for it would have been public; I would never have been able to work. I was not asked about my sexuality when I entered civil service and was able to retire after over 40 years with the government. I spoke to my CO (commanding officer) years after my military service and confirmed that he knew I was gay but said nothing - a wonderful man to work for.
Correct me if I'm recalling it wrong... The specific written question was, "Are you a homosexual?" Yes - No. Going back to that time in my mind I thought, but, if you had slept with the opposite sex at some point in your life then you must be "bisexual" and you could honestly answer the question with a "no." I'm expressing this in the terms of how I personally justified this to myself at the time I was checking the "no" box on the paperwork. Also, the whole being naked thing with all of the other recruits did seem a bit strange to me at the time. 35+ years later I called my old straight Army buddy to see how he was doing after all these years. From Basic Training, AIT and to our duty stations we were always assigned together. To my surprise he asked me why I never realized that he had always been in love with me and why I never tried to sleep with him?
@@DavidODuvall What an experience! Nothing similar in my case except a sergeant invited four of us trainees to dinner one time, I think during AIT. I felt uncomfortable because I thought I knew what was going on. After I got out, I asked one of the other [straight] guys years later about that night and he had not realized it was an "interview" to see which one or ones of us would want to sleep with the sergeant. I did not take him up on his implied offer - just too scared. I truly don't remember the wording at the examination station - just the intent. My MOS - in case you were wondering - was 91A but I worked as a 71A. I was not as good as Radar but, then again, I served all my time at Fort Sam, not in Vietnam.
@@Zeyev - during my tour of duty I had a lot of opportunities to sleep with other soldiers but, was always too afraid and politely ran away. I was a 34Y (computer tech) assigned to Airborne Ranger Rapid Deployment Support (who had no computers until several years later). I can tell you there were a lot of gay and bi Rangers in the service in the early 1980s - but only after they'd had a beer or 2 and there wasn't anyone else nearby. In the early 1980s they were still searching out the "gays" and "lesbians" in order to get rid of them so I was a bit paranoid. Years later (1992) I married a Navy Vet and we used to have fun at the VA Hospital in Columbia, Missouri. We had T-Shirts that said, "My Husband is a U.S. Navy Vet" and "My Husband is a U.S. Army Vet" and we often wore them to the VA Hospital for our appointments. It was comic gold! Over the years, all but 1 VA doctor was very supportive! When Steve (my husband) was dying of cancer (2008) they let me stay with him in the ICU and treated me like any other spouse. I'm sorry that I'm rambling..... Take care of yourself and thank you for making me smile.
@@DavidODuvall I'm very sorry to hear of your husband's passing. May good memories continue to provide comfort. I'm happy though that the VA treated you like the normal people you are. One other matter that you may or may not feel. Those of us who were in during Vietnam were rarely thanked or even acknowledged when we got out of the service. It has been jarring over the past few years to hear people, well-meaning people, thank me for my service. I wanted it then; it feels too late now. Perhaps that's just me. We're both rambling. We gay vets are probably more common than we know but it's always a pleasure to meet another one. Good BS is hard to find.
Something that always shocks me about Gay Culture in America is how recent major changes in law surrounding the LGBTQ+ community have happened; only in the past decade and that is fairly recent. I love your videos Matt because they don’t just focus on representation in pop culture, but in history and reality as well. They show how brave people had to take a stand for us, and while it took such a long time, it is thanks to them that our rights our rights in this country are stronger than ever before.
I get that same sense as well, even though I have been alive throughout the changing times. It's almost like if the civil rights act had been signed only 4 decades after slavery ended. On the other hand, I fear that it might be a high-water mark for the LGBTQ+ movement. If you asked people in the late 90's, I think most of them would have said the abortion issue was settled... but now, those rights are hanging on by a thread.
@@bubbafug00gle51 Abortion was never settled in the 1990's. If you thought that, you weren't paying attention. The anti-choice movement has just gotten sneakier, and less interested in trying to actually persuade people.
@@Magnulus76 This is why I used the term "most people." It clearly wasn't settled, as the ground keeps shifting. This is exactly my point. There was a SCOTUS ruling so the legality was set as "precedent". This gave the rights a sense of permanence. Similarly the LGBTQ+ community has won a SCOTUS decision and other smaller legal victories. This should create precedent. It does not. These rights will continue to suffer a death from a thousand cuts if people aren't vigilant. The pro-choice movement never waned. The individuals who weren't actively part of the movement - but supported the choice - stopped paying attention though. I fear the same thing can happen again with LGBTQ+ rights.
I'm always shocked at how recent the beginning of anti-gay sentiment is. What happened just before WWI that got everyone in such a twist? And why was it so hard for people to look back and realize that they weren't bothered before because there was nothing to be bothered about, and there still isn't?
Been watching m.a.s.h. for the first time recently and ive been really really happy about the way they talk about racism, lgbtq issues, war itself. Used to think getting into a show my grandparents' generation was into in their 20s would end quickly after an episode that'd have some pretty blatantly awful stuff in it, but it's amazing. As a trans person who has many thoughts about gender stuff, Klinger and how he is perceived by the show and the characters in-universe is really enjoyable. Maybe this part isn't as super-duper forward as the "George" episode, but damn it makes me feel things.
yeah totally! the way other characters mostly compliment klinger and dont talk down to him is very refreshing, and as a nonbinary person, i see myself in the way klinger and even sometimes hawkeye presents themselves
I think part of the reason modern audiences often have a mixed relationship with Klinger is that the joke isn't the dresses, and isn't that Klinger is possibly trans, even though it looks that way to our cynical first glances. The joke (brought in at the suggestion of Jamie Farr himself, during filming of his first episode) is that he's straight. As in a VERY hetero-normative wannabe tough guy from a kinda rough neighborhood. It's in the way you look at it, I suppose, but the joke wasn't "ha ha, dude in a dress!" but instead, "ha ha person in the dress is a total Dude." This perspective was reinforced by the numerous "reveal shots" of someone approaching him or trying to get his attention from behind or in low visibility, only to be shocked to discover the dress is on a guy who needs a shave and is holding a cigar between his teeth. The funny reveal is the dude, not the clothes. The clothes are the lie. Klinger was also a commentary on letting go of gender norms being possible for ANYONE who is open to it. Max took up sewing and studying fashion magazines, because he found something he enjoyed doing while he was trying for that much-wanted Section 8, even though being fashion forward had no impact on the results he was purportedly aiming for. And he's a commentary on conscription, the practice of putting guns in the hands of people who are horrified at the idea of killing others, just because they are fit and male. Let's be honest, if Klinger had landed in a combat unit, there wouldn't have been any time for the dresses. He would have just offed himself after the first time he was forced to take a life. Also, if Klinger's family had been well-off, his odds of having a gun forced into his hands to begin with would have been lower. Him being a rough, working class fellow was important for more than the contrast with the dainty frocks. It was also social commentary.
Barney miller was a good show around the same time as MASH that tackled relevant issues of the time. In one episode Harris who is one of the regular characters and a black plain cloths police officer Gets shot at by 2 white cops because they assumed he was the criminal they were looking for. The Criminal was a white guy and got away.
@@LucyLynette Obviously, doctors were subject to the draft in the early 50s Korean War, not just the underclass, as Hawkeye and Winchester often complained. It was the nurses, the women, who were all-volunteer.
This actually puts a lot more weight behind an earlier episode where Hawkeye makes a gay joke at Radar and he reacts quite in my eyes then hard saying "That's not funny!" i thought it was simply an overreaction from a young soldier but hearing this putting it in its actual historical perspective it's clear that if that joke was taken seriously Radar stood to lose the ability to inherit the family farm and help out his aged mother and uncle once he returned from his tour of duty.
Props to the show writers for sticking to vocabulary contemporary to the setting: "colored" and "Negro". At the time this was set, President Truman had only recently ordered racial integration of the armed services. Not everyone was happy about that. That issue wasn't covered until MASH Season 10. We got to see a young Laurence Fishburne in that episode.
My father was U.S Army for 21 years (Corps of Engineers). As part of the recently integrated service in the 1950s, Dad and his troops had chits to use at restaurants. Dad's troops were racially diverse for the time, but restaurants in some areas still wouldn't allow then inside to eat. Dad said "my troops can't eat, I won't eat," and they took their business elsewhere. Dad was in Korea during the war; M*A*S*H was his favorite show and remains one of mine. Definitely takes #1 in best series of all time.
I agree about the use of terms; retro-actively inserting "afro-american" would have just felt too weird. I wince everytime I hear the n-word used in a movie, but having movies / shows to depict some cleaned up history where well, right, slavery wasn't a exactly a nice thing, but hey, economic necessity and good people on both sides and all ? That would be worse.
Well negro wasn’t racist back then tho. It was just the proper term. Negro became racist cause it sounded too similar to the N word. Also old racist people would say things like “I don’t like that a negro family moved in down the street” and we all know they chose negro to subtly use the N word. But it wasn’t a racism in the 1950s like it is today. Today if someone said negro they are 98% likely to be racist, back then they were all racist as well but it wasn’t a racist word
My only problem with MASH was that Frank had nothing not one redeeming feature, he was only ever the butt of jokes a sad 2D man who was just shadow of a man, like a fart in the room you know he was there but were happy only when you didn't have to deal. Would of been so bad to of give him one good trait. Charles was a huge ass but an skilled surgeon, greedy but not blindly cruel, he saw himself as better than everyone else not by skin color or anything he just was . Poor Frank would it of been so hard to give him something. Kind to dogs, feeds cats, great with kids
@@colinmaclaughlanweir9670 I've always wondered why they didn't give Frank's character a growth arc. Perhaps there were creative differences with Larry Linville. I remember hearing writers for Friends saying they couldn't let their characters grow too much, or they'd lose the successful dynamic they had built. Maybe the writers couldn't see Frank and Margaret as three-dimensional people, and wouldn't give them material they could work with. Linville left the show after two years, and perhaps the writers realized they didn't need a built-in villain.
@@colinmaclaughlanweir9670 Frank had a few moments. * One time there was a Korean boy trapped in a minefield and he was just as concerned as everyone else, if not more so. Perhaps because he was a father. * He was struck as much as anyone else by the death of Henry. * He joined all the other male major characters [no pun intended] drawing straws to see who would go on a date with a clumsy nurse, since all the women in camp had decided that none of them would go out with anyone unless someone went out with her. (Lysistrata Gambit) * One time after he and Margret broke up, he got a good zinger on her and shared a laugh over it with Hawk & BJ.
I remember this episode when I first saw it. I was 12 in 1974 and knew I was 'homosexual' (my parents got a liberal newspaper [that I read, daily], so I knew the word, and its' meaning). Yeah. I was gay. Also, I was in Australia. I watched it and was thrilled to see Hawkeye's reaction! There were people that didn't have an instant negative reaction! This thrilled me beyond belief (it didn't hurt that I had a bit of a crush on Alan Alder at the time). As soon as I saw this was a MASH related episode, I knew that it had to be this one episode. The other positive of this episode to an Australian, was that it was the first time that I understood the racial prejudice that devoured / enveloped the USA. I just couldn't understand it (I do now, Australia was (is) racist, just we didn't have POC that were in public life - we had effectively kicked them aside, so I didn't understand it), so it opened my eyes to what was happening in the side-lines. A truely astounding episode!
That makes sense because it was known for having two seemingly unrelated storylines within an episode. Usually one funny and one serious to balance the show and achieve what they wanted.
What's crazy is Frank was committing adultry the whole time he was in the military with Margaret. Margaret knew Frank was married too and still went along with it. As much as Hawkeye flirted a lot of it was borderline and would be seen as harassment now.
@@pvanukoff Exactly. That and the general Red Scare paranoia he represented were the primary uses of the character. For the people watching the show in the 70's, he represented the worst qualities of their parents' generation, who would have been Frank's age during the time period the show takes place.
It was true to life. The ones who scream the most about how other people behave, and who try to make people behave in a certain way are typically the ones with no actual moral code. And wouldn't you know that just to the right of where I am typing this, there is a picture of Jimmy Swaggart with tears rolling down his face and a rictus of overblown, kabuki theatrical sorrow claiming how he "sinned before God." Just too perfect how things line up sometimes.
That last part with Hawkeye actually gets addressed and Hawkeye quits it, fortunately. He feels very horrible once he realizes how shitty he’s being, and his flirty following that is usually him tossing jokes and making light as he does when he puts up that character mask he’s made for himself in the camp, or genuinely offering interest but being willing to back off.
As a female Army veteran, I remember hearing the same argument that being female was a threat to national security, and that somehow, my femininity would interfere with my military duties. Luckily, I got to attend an integrated, co-ed basic training where the girls all proved they could keep up with the boys and even excel beyond some. Homophobia and misogyny usually go hand in hand. (*also, I'm commenting from my husband's account because I'm too lazy to sign out/in. He loves it when I do that, haha)
My mother served in the Army in the mid 1960s. Unfortunately she got pregnant and back then, that meant an automatic discharge, albeit honorable. I know that she hated being forced to choose between being a mother and serving her country.
Honestly, misogyny and homophobia ... to me, it feels awfully like the only way of bonding some man have is to make ugly remarks about women, brag about their sexual escapades or possible compare their ####s, so anybody not male & heterosexual presents a social problem because suddenly they realize that's 90% of their themes. Don't get me wrong, I know that's not all men, or even most. But I think they turn up in the classical 'real manly men' jobs.
I can't say anything about gay men, but men act entirely different when women are around. This means that they might act differentially in the women's favor rather than the objective.
This isn’t to be mean but didn’t the army have to substantially lower the standards to let women in? Like the physical standards ? I thought I remembered they recently made a much easier entry test to be unisex and the girls still failed most of the time ? Again it’s been months if not a year since I’ve heard that story so maybe it’s untrue ? Or the women you served with were just more capable than most female recruits today?
I served with at least two gay men during the "Don't ask, Don't tell" period. One guy all of us enlisted knew, we just didn't mention it to non-comms or officers. The other kept himself closeted and I never knew, even though he was my roommate and friend, until after he retired from the military years later. It was this revelation that made me think really hard about how I treated, and thought about gays. It opened my eyes and my mind. During that time I thought I was pretty open minded, but to be honest I was still trash. Maybe not as bad as some since I didn't care if someone who served was gay, but I'm sure I said the typical stupid shit that guys who want to be tough say. I've since have been trying my best to make amends for my past. My own son is very active with LGBTQI+ and I'm doing my best to give him the support he needs.
That clip of Alan Alda from 30 Rock had me actually choke on my drink because I'd never seen him as anything other than Hawkeye and didn't instantly recognised him, yet his voice has _barely_ changed.
M. A. S. H. was amazing. Like any older show, elements of it have aged poorly. But it was a smart show that was both serious and seriously funny, and was extremely progressive for its day. In some aspects, it's still progressive even by current standards. For anyone interested, it holds up well for current viewing
@@sparksfly6149 the most notable aspect I’ve heard criticised is Hawkeye’s incessant flirting verging on harassment- see his interactions with Margaret- but this was addressed by the show itself and he got a development arc where he realised he was often going overboard. Otherwise I think it’s just the usuals of the era, some language, how certain minorities were treated, the interactions with/ portrayals of the Korean soldiers, etc. I haven’t watched in ages so I’m probably forgetting some, but yeah, it’s astoundingly progressive still!
@@sparksfly6149 A lot of the flirty or sexual relationships, especially in the early seasons, would be considered straight up harassment now. Some of the language is pretty dated though to be fair, since it takes place during the Korean War that is how these people would have talked
@@Sunaki1000 I always felt like that episode though was heartbreaking in that it said more about how Winchester’s painfully backward views got in the way of his own happiness. I see that episode as still being a pretty good one - you just end up feeling so bad for him because he’s being so old fashioned so he ends up hurting himself and the show actually celebrates the more modern woman that he’s trying to date.
The final episode of M*A*S*H had one if the grimmest, most shocking and moving pieces of character development I've ever seen in any film or TV show. It wasn't contrived or gratuitous, but sheer genius. It would have been so easy to do a cosy wrap up episode, but the makers showed right up to the end that they wouldn't shy away from any subject or go easy on the audience.
That was the single most watched episode of any show in TV history. IIRC, something like 83 million people watched it. Still one of the best finales ever.
@@Serai3 actually, it will never be known EXACTLY how many people watched it. I didn’t know it until recently, but by Alan Alda, ‘Many people and places had “watch parties,’ either in private homes or at community centers or VFW’s (Veterans of Foreign Wars).’
@ Aaron White I served in the military from 1970 to 1991, there were still many people who thought having WOMEN in the ranks was wrong. The last base that I served at, one of my co-workers went a bit ...overboard, whenever he noticed a " new " young woman walking through the building where we worked (BTW, our small unit had no female members, though we had a few women as support staff, but they didn't count as they we older, married, and had children). He was like something out of a Looney Tunes cartoon. I have to admit that I myself was nearly slapped with a sexual harassment charge, tho it stemmed from a personality conflict I had with a woman who's " know it all attitude " I didn't appreciate. She was the only woman in uniform who ever " rubbed me the wrong way " and had she been a man I still would have despised her attitude. Before working at that unit I worked under a female officer. A few people in my building asked how I could take orders from a woman. I never cared if you were a man or woman. I cared about a person's attitude and/or what kind of decisionmaker they were. I was in the Navy, but heard that the Marine Corps had many service members who were LESS than tolerant of women in their ranks than any other service as the 20th century came to a close. I think it's dumb to persecute or prosecute anyone for what they do in private.
I love how you make learning about LGBTQ history engaging and thoughtful. I love watching your content and am always excited to see more. For so long I tried to delete my homosexuality...and now that I have been out I love to see the wonderful queer world that was hidden from me.
The beginning section of this episode, explaining what M*A*S*H was and why it was important, kinda blew my over-40 mind. Can I just say that if you are reading this and not already well-versed in the show, please dive in a little more and give it a watch! It remains one of the best-ever television shows. My dad and I are on opposite sides of the dove-hawk spectrum but one of the few things we can agree on is that we enjoy watching M*A*S*H!
As an Australian, I generally enjoy British comedy and British shows better (and Australian ones, of course!). But, having said that, M*A*S*H* was sooooo far ahead of it's time. M*A*S*H* was the only America show I really liked (I find a lot of American humour a little childish, and the punchlines too obvious to be funny - sorry!), but M*A*S*H* was very different - the humour was more British like, more making fun of oneself, as is essential in British humour. It was pretty much universally loved in Australia - I know of no-one who didn't watch it. It was definitely by far my favourite television show of all time. I loved both the comedy and the serious side - actually I loved the mix. I grew up with it as a child of the 70s. There's no other show like it. It really informed my young mind, and thus much of my personal ethics today. I grew up never understanding how people could possibly seriously think and judge like the 'Franks' of this world. M*A*S*H* first and foremost taught the values of humanity.
It's important to remember that for many of us discrimination against the gay community was recent...within our lifetimes. And in many ways, if you live outside a major metropolitan centre, it goes on full-force. We didn't fight just for ourselves, we fought for those that didn't have the power to do so. If you have the privilege to be out, work to free others.
That one hit me hard. My mom was a veteran, Korea era. She and my father were both U.S. Navy, joined in 1951 and discharged in 1955. They married while still in service in 1955, in Pearl Harbor. I was born in 57, my sibs two years apart each. My parents divorced in 1962. That's when, according to my mom, my father worked to get her thrown out of town (the largest town in the panhandle of Texas) by telling everyone she was gay. He managed to get custody of us and it was my senior year in high school before I met her again. My dad hit the ceiling when he found out. She was gay. She never said the words, but she was a lesbian. There were so many things that were big old rainbow flags to this. She went to barber school and was an old barber-pole barber, not a salon hairdresser. I don't think I ever saw her wearing a dress, she preferred men's jeans and shirts. Her hair was short, slicked back. And she had a "room mate" who she was with for over 50 years. Mom would be closed on Mondays and go up to the VA hospital and cut veterans hair for free for as long as she was able to work (into her 80s). Mom used to tell stories of all the parties she and Alice went to, ones where the gay guys were there (and she would tell me 'you would not believe who in this town is gay."). She and Alice had separate bedrooms but they were a couple, the sleeping arraignments were for show. Alice passed away first and my mom didn't do well after that. I don't live in town, but 800 miles away. We got the call she was majorly dehydrated and hadn't eaten in over a week, the call coming from the waitress at the greasy spoon mom used to have lunch, they got worried about her and went to her house. It was a wreck, mom had just given up on everything. She went into an assisted living facility and passed away in 2016. She lived to see LGBTI couples marry but she never, ever said anything about being a lesbian herself. I often asked if she would marry again and she would tell me "I swore off of men after your father." She never talked about getting married to Alice. I had forgotten about the M*A*S*H episode until I watched this (I was an avid fan) and it brought up so many things about her and her life. Thank you for the video.
Thanks for sharing your family's story. It's important, because the lives of lesbians, especially closeted ones, all too often disappear from history. Your mother was a heroic survivor, in & out of the military is sounds like!
MASH was still on the air when a fellow soldier, a real quiet guy, came to my wedding on base in loud, full drag, complete with a giant auburn wig. It was assumed he was a goner, but there he was Monday morning & every morning till I was deployed overseas, in the mess hall cooking & serving the breakfast slop. Nobody told on him. Not even the chaplain. Amazing how that was the only reason he got to stay in his job.
@@eduardoramirezjr4403 Absolutely! At least 5 times a Season of MASH I have a genuine spit-take moment of "The network let him say that? In the SEVENTIES?!" This show was a minor miracle.
definitely! i sometimes think im projecting my queerness onto him but he is incredibly queer coded. i think there was an episode in season 4/5 about romantic relationships with a scene between a straight couple that drew a parallel to a scene between hawkeye and bj
I am a veteran and I served from 2005 to 2013. One of the most memorable moments in my short military career was the end of Don't ask Don't tell. I am a bisexual male and was glad to be able to serve openly!
When I was a kid, Vietnam was on the (British) TV every night. As to MASH, we all watched it, and yes this episode made an impact on a young kid, me, watching it. I recognised myself. Not altogether sure I recognised it was set in an earlier war, it seemed very much part of 'now' to us, as someone else commented earlier.
Having grown up in an era of change, when it was still expected, or even 'OK', that being gay (or at least admitting it), closed off most of the desirable careers. I remember the revelation that things were beginning to change. One moment was in law school: a friend and I were doing our second year summer internship with Jones Day. Some event, don't remember what, he decided to attend with his boyfriend. I was floored. Sure, they had a policy, but what did that mean. It turned out, they meant it - upper echelon law firms were no longer turning away top law school grads - gay or not. Talent, or at least the application of hard work anyway, canceled out Saturday night on the dance floor at Tracks and whatever that 4th jello shot inspired. 22 and free at last :)
Being a HUGE fan of M*A*S*H, it was odd hearing you call the character John (yes, his given name) instead of the nickname most called him by which was Trapper. I would have really been put off if you had called Hawkeye Ben or Benjamin... Lol
Thing is though that there's more than one "John" in _M*A*S*H._ Beisdes Trapper John there's Ho-Jon, John Patrick Francis Mulcahy, and Ugly John, all of whom could also be called "Hawkeye's friend Jo[h]n."
@@jb888888888 Only one of them on the screen at the time his name was said though. And the only one of those characters who's more than a bit part is Mulcahy, who gets called John by one person in the show, ever. So I think it's unambiguous in context.:)
@@TheHopperUK agreed that it's unambiguous in context, but I also agree with the first poster...its still jarring and like he hadn't really watched the show.
@@michaeladkins6 I prefer Hawkeye and Margaret’s friendship growth after Frank left. And at that point, he’d become such a caricature that there wasn’t much left they could do with him. Though I know the cast greatly missed Larry Linville after he left. He was by all accounts a lovely man, and the very opposite of the character he played.
@@michaeladkins6 also, I liked Charles. I think the Mozart POW scene made his entire character worth it. And I’m glad they didn’t just go with a Frank 2.0 character. Much like when Trapper left and was replaced with Hunnicutt- they weren’t the same character, and that was important.
I always remember a friend from high school talking to her future husband, a member of the national guard, saying that the military's ban on gays was because men were afraid they might have to tolerate the same sexual harassment they felt it was fine for women to tolerate.
The Revolutionary War Hero Who Was Openly Gay Baron Friedrich von Steuben was known for his bravery and the discipline and grit he brought to the American troops
And the US got him because Prussia didn't want him, and Europe in general didn't want him. I wonder what homophobes might think if they knew the US (in part) owed its existence to a gay man.
Is he know to be gay? I've always heard that it is suspected, highly likely (in no small part to things mentioned here), but in no way even close to a certainty. This very much could be the standard homophobic bias in culture at play and watering down what they could, so I'm curious if it is more definitive.
@@scaper8 if I recall correctly he was chased out of just about every country he went to in Europe because of 'sexual indecency' and he never married, choosing instead to live in a shared home with one of his officers and an aide-de-camp, to whom he left his house after he died.
I graduated from Von Steuben high school in Chicago in 1972. No surprise that this info never came up when learning about our namesake. I doubt that it has changed, but it sure would be nice if it has.
That was one of the few early season episodes that stood out to me above the rest. The Lavender Scare was one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th Century for this country as far as gay rights go. I didn't know that Ike did that, and it definitely puts him down a bracket for favorite Presidents now. Thanks for the video, and all of the previous ones too, more importantly, thanks for the openness; like it was said in the episode, having to hide it is more damaging.
Loved this episode of mash. So good to see so many characters taking George's side, not just Hawkeye. And they're not just doing it to oppose Frank, which is sometimes the case, but because they honestly want to help George
I loved the joke Alan got to make in 30 rock "Why is he crying over a chicken and a kid, I thought this was a comedy show?" best meta reference ever IMO.
Mash is a show that still makes me emotional just hearing the theme song - I really value how it engages in real themes, regardless of some ways it doesn’t age well
Thanks for this. I’m 52 and have fond memories of watching the later seasons of the show with my (very Progressive) father, who LOVED the show, mainly for its compassion amidst adversity. I, of course, came to love it as well, mainly thru it’s reruns years later. (But we did cry together during the showing of its Final Ep in ‘83). Funny seeing this video now… Last month I introduced it to my son, age 13. We started from the beginning and are on season 4. So we just recently saw the episode spoken about here. My son ABSOLUTELY adores the show…it is his favorite prob of ANY show (prob more than The Office… and THATS saying something). He constantly every day wants to be sure we watch an episode (he hopes 2). This clearly makes me very happy, and I tell him his grandfather would be as well (who died before he was born). I think the shows has aged EXTREMELY well, and we often comment on its relevance to issues today….yes, the occasional condescending/sexist comments, and handsy-nature by the Drs are difficult and concerning, and of course we talk about that. But these are easily overshadowed by the positive messages such as the focus of this video. And as an aside… those commenting on Hawkeyes sexuality, there is a recent episode (4?) where Hawkeye wants to break a record by cramming as many people in a jeep. One of his comments during its occurrence is something to the fact of no groping and if any happens then as punishment any gropers must report to his tent later… Afterwards followed by the grope-ees! The show is a 10 out of 10 for sure.
I love M*A*S*H. My favourite of all the rerun shows I watched as a child. It has its problems and flaws, but it was actually so progressive for its time (both the time it depicts and the time it was made). And while it may not be medically accurate, it sure was emotionally accurate. The best anti war show ever made, I reckon.
Well done once again, Matt. I was pretty young when I first saw a repeat of this episode of "MASH" and never forgot it. Thank you for giving it context.
I’ve not yet come across someone saying “this should be taught in our schools” and it wasn’t mentioned in at least one lesson while I was at school. “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” was taught in my Texas classroom. Edit: accidentally replied before finishing oops
@@troyjardine5850 Personally I have a lot of issues with CRT and think there should be voices out there that are critical of it. Obviously the mainstream conservatives aren’t going to be nuanced in their arguments but they aren’t wrong for disagreeing with the perspective.
MASH tried a lot of difficult subjects like homosexuality, race, prejudice in general, war, friendship, and more. To this day, I like watching most episodes, specially the first 3 seasons.
Even though I'm not even an adult yet, I've watched MASH a lot as I've grown up. When I was younger, the more serious episodes didn't make an impact on me, but as I grew and realized who I was, episodes like this and many of the other more progressive episodes hit far too close to home. Even growing up in the early 2000's, I've heard all kinds of homophobia and transphobia. It makes me glad to know that I'm not the only one who feels connected to this show.
I'm trans, and I remember the transphobia from my friends and and family and church. this was in the 2000's and 2010's. it was the main reason I didn't come out until 2019.
I think it’s interesting how a man making a pass at another man would’ve be reason enough for the unit to take further action against the gay soldier, while at the same time, Hawkeye and Trapper’s constant objectification of women throughout the show and instances where they do things that are now usually considered (and should’ve been considered) super creepy and inacceptable, like grabbing women and forcing them to kiss them, was totally normal. I mean I get it was a different time (I still love the show and appreciate the progressive importance it held at the time) but it’s kinda wild that even 50 years later this is still something women have to deal with.
No joke! AND, women in the military are still getting sexually harassed. I don't know if we will ever find out what really happened in Fort Hood, Texas.
Ok I’m only going by memory here so I could be way off base, but the nurses were generally tough cookies who could hold their own against Hawkeye’s innuendos and actions and he certainly knew how to take no for an answer. There was respect between (most of) the doctors and nurses as they were all just trying to get through the chaos and come out of it still sane. And it wasn’t like they were unwilling participants - the show generally acknowledged them as people with the same “urges” as the men and there was no shame attached. It really was a very progressive show. Of course, it was reflective of the fact that the times they were a-changin’.
@@elvisneedsboats3714 Hawkeye gave respect to the nurses for their surgical skills ONLY IF THEY REMEMBERED THEIR PLACE... to serve the doctors' needs & wants. He even objectified the female surgeon, Inga.
@@thecocktailian2091 What exactly was the purpose of this comment? Because it really just sounds like a pretentious way of saying that sexual harassment is reasonable and understandable as long as your life is in danger.
Mr. Baume, I didn't know who Frank Kameny was. Thank you for this video. Also, somehow I missed this episode of M.A.S.H. I miss watching it with my dad.
That heartbreaking line seems to have been used to highlight how even the best people were trained to think of non-straight people as monsters. We see that this thought is incorrect and that he is an honest and nice guy, thematically showing that persecuting homosexuals is wrong and justified with falsehoods.
Yes, but in early episodes such as this one, Margaret was almost as villainous as Frank. In later years, her character evolved significantly. She would not have been nearly as homophobic by the end of the series.
To be fair- Frank did not specify that the soldier was gay, he said that he was a “pervert” to which Margaret responds “That nice boy?” It still wouldn’t surprise me if early season Margaret was homophobic. She was very close minded at the beginning of the show.
I remember watching this episode with my mom and honestly, this was so ahead of it's time! Especially with Frank as the a-hole that hes known to be throughout the series trying to get him discharged... it really brought home how horrid it was and framed the conversation as such. Frank reminds me of a few people I've known in my life, but my mom always keeps recordings of the episodes with Frank in them, just because we both love seeing people like him be the punching bag. Thanks for making a video about this episode!
I served in the Marines , just before don't ask, don't tell happened, and then happened (1988-1994)I had 3 gay roomates while in, (note: I'm hetero) over the years , one was an outstanding Marine, one was average (and bi, or at least confused) and one was an utter piece of crap... Just like pretty much any spectrum of people you will meet in your life. I just do not remotely understand the thought process that makes people think 'gay' is a moral issue. (heck I don't understand the argument that sexuality is a moral issue.-- but I'm a godless atheist, so I'm probably immoral in some people eyes -- and yes when I served there was even a stigma of being an atheist... I got punished in boot camp because I didn't want to go to church so had to do extra chores while others were at church)
@Green Mamba Games boot camp church didn't have ladies... I literally did not see a female except one for 3 months. (Church in bootcamp was everyone goes in formation, sits next to each other, listen to a guy talk for two hours and return to the squadron... there was nothing to it... I went a few times because it was expected, but eventually I couldn't take it. The sheer idiocy of believing in a god has seemed stupid to me when I was 11, it was definitely moronic when I was 18. And to see adults believing this crap was just too painful to watch) The point is that you are punished for not conforming to norms, even in a society that is designed to protect independence.
@@cardsfanboy Interestingly, MASH covered the subject of individuality & Frank said, "individuality is fine as long as we are all doing the same thing". Bottom line- people are terrified of what they don't know or understand. They will immediately label it as 'evil' or 'wrong'. When their arguments don't hold up, they are even more terrified because they have no excuses for their own failures. It's the them vs. us argument.
Psychologically, I can explain this. No one *consciously believes that* electing a candidate (especially ones that take corporate $) = having a say on issues. But everyone consciously states that this does indeed happen, that if you don't vote, you don't have a say. The conflict is happening in a deeper, more primitive part of our minds, the semi- or subconscious (SC). That isn\t where our logic lives. It's where our primitive fight or flight instincts live. You can't do math while escaping a house on fire. You can't compose music while running from a bear. & you can't think logically when your f or f instincts are triggered. What about the gay issue triggers one's f or f instincts? The same thing that makes people state the irrational *_"ONLY_* voting gives you a say in how you're governed." We have deep-rooted SC ideals about 'Government' & how we view it, including our relationship to it. As we're seeing in the comments everywhere, we're not worried about anyone being gay (except maybe our own children) but everyone is _hella_ worried about pissing off authority figures. The SC can't work out this conflict. It isn't *designed* to. You don't run away from bears except on Tuesdays. You don't escape a house on fire only on Fridays. You react to Symbolic Representations the way you react to Real Things All The Time. & unless you learn to recognize when you yourselves are doing it, _you'll_ 1) never figure your way out of much of anything, & 2) we'll continue to be run by corporate agendas interfering with our human rights because you can't break free from imagining 'Government' to be immune from being swayed by $.
One of my favorite shows growing up. The theme song really made me fall in love with it. And can we talk about Corporal Maxwell. Great Information! Thank you😊✌🏾
It is weird how the lyrics, which were intended to be the most stupid song ever*, have proven so resonant with people over the decades. *This was the requirement of Robert Altman, who tried to write the lyrics himself, but, in the end, handed the job off to 14-year-old son, Michael. 😍
In the movie, the song is sung to a soldier who fears he might be gay and wants to kill himself. His friends throw a goodbye party for him that ends with a mock suicide. They actually drug him to sleep and he wakes up in bed with a beautiful female nurse. Cured! It's disturbing on many levels.
Bless you, Matt! Every time I watch one of your programs I feel like I’m getting a college lecture in queer history. If only such a thing had been on offer when I was in college in 1982.
I first saw this episode around the same time I found ur videos and my first thought was, “Matt Baume should make a video about this” and I’m glad you finally did because I love ur videos.
When I was a teen (mid-1980s), there was a guy in the cadet camp I went to who was rumoured (or maybe even discovered) to be gay. He was sent home early for unnamed reasons, but consensus was that it was because of his sexual orientation. As a gay teen myself, this pushed me even deeper into the closet. Even if I wasn't ready to come out to anyone else back then, I regret that I never got up the nerve to tell the other cadet that I was like him before he was returned home.
This is why I love watching MASH. I grew up watching 2 episodes every weekend morning with my mom getting ready for school. I loved Alan Alda then and still do today. Hawkeye always saw the best in others and he saw how little someone's sexuality matter when it came to work, or simply their merit. Everyone is capable of being kind, courageous, and dedicated to others. Those are some of the best qualities anyone can have. I'm straight, but I have a lot of friends who have been bi, gay, trans or somewhere in between. I love them all for who they are and not because of who they sleep with.
Also what makes this episode great is that, unlike most television at the time, George isn’t the butt of homophobic jokes; Frank’s bigotry is. Gary Markowitz (the stepson of Larry Gelbart and writer of this episode) also said on Mash Matters (the podcast hosted by Jeff Maxwell aka Igor and another big Mash fan) that the original ending of the episode was that Frank had a sexual relationship with a friend of his when he was a teenager.
MASH tackled a lot of controversial subjects and not only still remained humorous, it also made you question the very things they were questioning, its considered to be one of the best shows for a reason
The Lavender Scare is one of the worst time for LGBTQ community. My grandfather work for the Pentagon during it height, and they wanted him to investigate people who are rumored to be homosexuals. Instead of outing them. He save a lot of people there jobs, by informing them about how they where being investigate and when he wrote his reports he lied and said there was no proof of them being apart of the LGBTQ community. He was also the first member of my family I told I was pansexual and he's reply was I don't care and you still are my grandchild.
I'm proud to say in the mid-80s we had a gay guy in our squadron in the USAF. We all knew, we all didn't care, and we all loved him as one of our brothers
Damn. “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” was still a thing in 2006 when I went in. I remember if a recruit didn’t want to complete boot camp and said they were gay, the Drill Instructor would say: “Okay, you’re gay huh? Let’s call your Dad and tell him that’s the reason why you’re getting kicked out.” It wasn’t until years later I realized how shitty of a thing that is to do to someone.
Thank you so much for this video! I grew up on M*A*S*H (odd for a 19 year old, I know) and I remember seeing this episode just as I was dealing with my own coming out. It's been a favourite of mine ever since and I can never turn down a good deep dive into this series or queer history.
MASH is such an intelligent and compassionate show. It definitely had an impact on me growing up. It makes my heart hurt to think about the abuse queer people had to endure for decades....
I've been watching M*A*S*H for the first time, since I was born in the late 90s and not American, I was surprised how much I love it. It's timeless and transcends cultural.
MASH will forever be both a product of its time and a great piece on modern society. It truly is a show that is timeless and perfect. Great episode Matt!
The reason I think I prefer Charles to Frank is that Charles wouldn't have given a fuck about the soldier being gay, he cared more about just doing his job well.
"Being gay is bad for unit cohesion!" Well, maybe it's not the gays at fault for that. I mean, beating up your fellow soldier for something totally unrelated to their ability to serve is definitely gonna do some damage to the unit cohesion. Maybe it was the people who couldn't do the right thing and be team players who were causing the problems in the units.
I remember reading an article in the early 90s that said the military could only work if the homoeroticism was sublimated. If the sexual tension got fulfilled, that would ruin everything….somehow
Thanks for this video about my favourite show - I greatly appreciate the additional information that gives context to the episode and adds depth to the issues raised
This is an amazing piece, thank you! I love(d) M*A*S*H, and was among that record-holding audience watching the finale as it aired (and crying!)? I was a teenager and young adult in the late 70s-early 80s and vividly remember the misery and battles for us queer folk at the time (along with the requisite misogyny, racism, etc). M*A*S*H was one of the entertainment spaces my friends and I could turn to where we’d see some pushback against the toxicity right there in popular media. I’d love to see you do a take (or two!) on Buffy, which also broke barriers in queer representation 😊
Mash is one of my all time favorite shows, and every time someone makes a video like this, I learn something about what made the show so great that went over my head when I was watching reruns on the Hallmark Channel with my dad in the early 2000s. Thank you for teaching something I will always be happy to know.
I am to new to your channel and I'm really enjoying it. I find the historical background and research in the videos incredibly interesting. I'll be watching that special on the lavender scare. Your personality is really wholesome and welcoming even when tackling important and often depressing topics. Thank you for your hard work!
There is a story over here about Winston Churchill and his view on gay people in the military. It used to be the case that gay soldiers would meet up in London’s parks at night, and… Anyway one morning Churchill was approached by a senior army officer. “Prime Minister, there is a scandal brewing, two Guardsmen were caught in Hyde Park last night making love” “Bloody cold night last night wasn’t it?” “Apparently one of the coldest nights on record Prime Minister” “Makes you proud to be British!”
My mother's first husband was someone that she'd grown up with. She married him so that he could stay in the Army. He wasn't drafted, he had enlisted because he wanted to serve his country. He and my mom not only stayed friends their entire lives, but he and my father also became friends, and he was made my godfather. Uncle Bill was one of the finest men I ever knew.
EXPIRED BOTTOM??? HAHAHA!! What does that even mean?? Also, MASH was one of those few shows that as a gay kid, was "tolerant" and showed me that I wasn't alone. It also made me think of going to the army- almost.
Wonderful video and research. Rick Ely (pronounced Eeelie) who played George was a popular actor on many shows in the 70's and 80's. He passed away in 2019. @RickEly1970
I watched M*A*S*H while younger and it's in this moment I'm really starting to wonder how much of an influence it had on me. My mom was surprised at my interest but actively encouraged it as it's a good show.
M*a*s*h & Black Adder remains my all time fav military themed dark comedy series. All time fav dark comedy being Little Britain, hands down. Keeping with Mash, it had so much to offer. Some episodes like this, was bittersweetly wholesome. But the background remains so, morbidly dark.
I met Alan Alda once, and got his autograph- a fact I'm sharing here because for once I won't have to explain who Alan Alda is. Or why I was so excited.
lucky bastard!
Super lucky! He doesn't sign autographs much anymore.
No indeed, you won't have to. Just like maybe for once, people get the reference of my screenname.
Alan Alda is a fine man, too. And although some MASH episodes or some of the tropes they use haven't aged as well, it's general spirit remains relevant to this day. I go back to it and watch the entire show every couple of years.
I envy you... and not in a good way!
Matt saying "you might know Alan Alda from 30 Rock" when I only knew him from MASH...
When I was in the Army we had this guy in our unit that was so effeminate he made Carmen Diaz in a bikini look butch. We all knew and didn't care. As a matter of fact he would play on it and have us laughing so hard. Like me he was a medic and one platoon always asked for him when they had to go out. Because they knew he would do everything in his power to get them back to base if anything happened.
He ended up proving it by shielding two wounded with his body when fired at with RPGs. He lost his right arm below the elbow and scars down his back and legs. When I got there those two wounded soilders were yelling at him to stay. It damn near broke my heart when I saw how bad he was hurt.
Good news he lived and today he's happily married to someone that just dotes on him.
This is a super sweet story, but my brain skipped “laughing” and I was incredibly impressed with his abilities for a second there.
God bless you for sharing this story; whether or not I feel homosexuality is right, I feel a person's sexual orientation has absolutely NO bearing on their character and personality.
@@trenae77 It should have no bearing on anything, from the way they are treated by others to their rights.
Sexual orientation has nothing to do with these people being people, and as such they should be treated like any other person.
Oh my god that’s such a sweet story. What a wonderful friend and comrade you had
Things are very different now. Ironically even after DADT was repealed homophobia is super prevalent in the ranks now. Especially since trump accelerated open bigotry in society. If you're openly gay, you're allowed to serve but the men especially will ostracise you and be passive aggressive in their harassment and wanting you to feel unwelcome. That's how deeply ingrained this right wing rebellion against progress is. Sharing close quarters no longer helps to see the humanity in someone different than you. This country is so divided that even in the military different groups hate each other with a seething passion now and it's only a matter of time before major fractures happen in the armed forces. A gay friend of mine enlisted right after DADT was repealed in 2011 and all the other men in the Army were nice and friendly toward him despite him being openly gay. When trump was elected suddenly he started seeing homophobia like he'd never seen in or out of the military and he retired as soon as he could because he suddenly felt unsafe among his fellow soldiers.
I appreciate your videos. I'm a straight guy in his 50s who had his adolescence in a mostly homophobic peer environment. It wasn't until my early 20s that I found out one of my flatmates was gay. That was the first time I had to actually confront my dogma as a human ... about a human. I remember the moment... about 15 minutes after accidentally finding out Gerry was gay... I had the epiphany that it had no effect to my life or friendship when I thought he was straight... therefore it has no effect knowing he was gay all that time of fellowship. And then... I realized that my friend could not tell me he was gay because he was sure I would reject him (as I was a vocal product of my peer upbringing). I felt hideously ashamed... but more... I felt terrible empathy for Gerry that THIS was the life he felt he was dealt. Hiding his love and joys from friends, and yes.. family. The next evening we sat and talked. He was my brother. He still lived a closeted life from his family, but in our circle of friends he could be loud and proud. He could talk about this love or that. He had the support from his rough beasts of youth to let his relationships into our circle in the same way our lady friends were expected entrance. Less than a year later, Gerry would pass from an untreated respiratory infection. I found him. And our circle grieved together with his boyfriend. Dunno why I am sharing all this... I guess I just miss him and wished I had my healing earlier so he could have that acceptance for longer. Your videos inform me and support the journey that I started in my youth. They let me see the struggle and as I feel it... I feel my buddy. I do not call myself and "ally". That denotes a separate entity. I'm a friend and I am thankful for where our culture has progressed. Thank you.
You sound so GAY.
Brian, it was lovely reading your comment! I am a 24 year old bi girl and I love how you have to come to understand that your ignorance/actions were a by-product of your environment - I wish everyone possed such an amazing trait like yours where they acknowledge their biases and prejudice then the world would become a little less cruel & isolating...if only everyone had the amount of empathy you carry with you! I am sure Gerry appreciated your support even if it was delayed. And I am sorry for your loss...if there is another life beyond this, Gerry would be there waiting for you
Beautiful my good sir just beautiful
Jesus Christ I got really choked up reading that. That was beautiful, sad and sweet.
Comments like this are a fantastic reminder that a lot of homophobia comes from unchallenged beliefs growing up and that people can change said beliefs for the better. (I mean, it's also worth noting that A LOT of it is based in what people were taught growing up. Even though people should be responsible for what they believe in, I understand that challenging beliefs that you were taught to believe growing up is not an easy task. Anyway, those two sentences are about a whole other rant, so I'm going to stop that rant there before it begins.)
Thank you for choosing friendship. As someone who has been in his shoes, I've found that friendships with straight male friends have always meant the most to me. I can't even pin down why those mean the most to me, but they just do. So, if he was anything like me, I'm sure your friendship meant more to him than you might have even realized.
I love M*A*S*H. That show aged like a fine wine, and remains relevant today.
Well... mostly. Theres a couple early season 1 episodes that are kinda sketch
@@fangsabre ok. like a case of wine that had couple less than airtight bottles...
Yeah, those early seasons are rough sledding. But it mostly holds up remarkably well. It's stunning what they managed to pull off, and remain so popular, too.
Yes,loved M*A*S*H and it does hold up pretty well, however the sexual harrassment isn't ageing well.
Grew up watching it with my parents in the 90s and yeah it's eternally relevant for the most part
As a young, queer kid that episode of MASH, left a lasting impression, and gave me hope of lasting tolerance..
Yup, me too.
Much too long of a story, but a short version was, I grew up looking up to the character Hawkeye, and Alan Alda in general. When I finally came to the personal realization that I was queer, of the many things running through my mind was that a man, who didn't even know I existed would have been disgusted with me (A general rule I have is not to look into the person views or opinions of actors from older media I like to avoid being disgusted) But I was actually surprised when I learned that Alda is a pretty good guy. To this day, MASH is one of my favorite shows in the world.
Same. I’ve always been struck by how Richard Ely looks directly at the camera before saying “one homosexual”
@@j_fitz6913 I got to meet him on the MASH set in 1980 - very cool friendly guy.
Sod tolerance, I'm demanding acceptance
The author of the novel that M*A*S*H was originally based on was apparently something of a Big C Conservative and absolutely haaaaaated the progressive direction that Alan Alda & Co steered the series into. Which fills me with delight!
The original movie was seen as lefty/hippy, but it would so NOT be considered so today. It was pretty damn bad. Not unfunny, but funny to people whose sense of humor is "ha, you're fat and ugly and probably gay!" Everyone was drunk and stoned and behaving the right ass. The television show was miles better, even if some at the time didn't think so. The funny thing is, my very conservative military dad hated the movie, but loved the television show.
@Green Mamba Games I do not think it was inaccurate for the times it portrayed though. Rampant sexism was still the norm and cultural stereotypes ran free.
Well, if anything I had no idea this timeless and incredible series was based on a book. As it is, there isn't going to be another M*A*S*H* anytime soon. That's kind of sad really.
@@Olimar92Well, there aren't any more M*A*S*H units in the US military anymore since, I think 2005/6 (not quite sure), when the last one was deactivated, so any re-makes or reboots would have to be set before that point in time...The novel is worth a read anyway, it's " M*A*S*H - a novel about army doctors" by Richard Hooker (yes, pretty sure that's a pen name, lol).
@@gozerthegozarian9500 Being a show about an Army Hospital wasn't what I meant. I meant a show with such incredible writing, so much so that it could be serious and comedic and it all fit without seeming out of place.
I’ve recently rewatched M*A*S*H*, specifically for critical thinking about Klinger. I have come to the conclusion that Klinger is a celebration of crossdressing for fun and for mental health. It’s his way of saying “I am not okay with the army, I am here under protest.” It’s his way of keeping sane in an insane situation.
I think there's an episode where that last part is nearly explicitly stated: when Potter takes over and forces him back into uniform, Klinger starts breaking out in hives, and then Hawkeye diagnoses the rash as psychosomatic and prescribes dresses... or something like that?
The only episode I remember when Klinger doesn't wear a dress (for a large part of the episode) is when he wants to re-up because of something relating to his wife, by the end he regrets doing so and returns to wearing dresses to get out of the military
@@andrewmalinowski6673 I'm fairly sure that he wears the standard uniform in much of the latter seasons. Especially the final season.
@@Rime_in_Retrograde Yeah, he stopped along the way somewhere. There's a SCREAM of a line at some point when Klinger is wearing the standard uniform and Radar looks at him and says, "Don't I know your sister?"
@@andrewmalinowski6673 I don't think Klinger was married and after Radar leaves he spent most of the rest of the series in regular uniform. I clearly remember that in the final season he falls for a Korean woman and in the final episode he gives her a wedding dress he made and has to explain why he had it. One of the ironies of the final episode is that Klinger, who had spent the vast majority of the series trying to get out of the army and back to the U.S, decides to stay in Korea to help find his new fiancée's parents.
I googled "Friend of Dorothy" and found this as part of a much larger Wikipedia article about the phrase:
"In the early 1980s, the Naval Investigative Service was investigating homosexuality in the Chicago area. Agents discovered that gay men sometimes referred to themselves as 'friends of Dorothy'. Unaware of the historical meaning of the term, the NIS believed that there actually was a woman named Dorothy at the center of a massive ring of homosexual military personnel, so they launched an enormous and futile hunt for the elusive 'Dorothy', hoping to find her and convince her to reveal the names of gay service members."
I served 20 years in the USAF and found the account of that investigation to be both entirely credible and hilarious.
Meanwhile in Canada, they spent millions trying to develop an actual gaydar
And that's why the term "military intelligence" is an oxymoron. 😂😅
Perhaps they should have tried skywriting, "Surrender Dorothy." in the skies above Chicago.
My knowledge of all 18 years of my childhood as a USAF dependent has me cackling at this. Then again, my COMMISSIONED OFFICER FATHER found out a maintenance person was deaf. So we ALL learned at least ASL alphabet and some simple words so we could communicate with him. Mom was a HIPPIE, btw. Lol
We thought for a time my only brother was at least Bi ... no big deal. I *personally* am Bi with a strong hetero tendency. But I *am* Bi.
My late neighbor was a WW2 Drill Sargent who served the nation with honor. It wasn’t until he was 86 (he died at 90) that he was able to admit that he was gay. This video would have made him cry with joy.
That's just horrible. Having to hide part of your identity - and whom you love, or just have a crush on - for nearly all your life? That's just cruel.
And of course: with every gay soldier carefully keeping a lid on it, the army gets to keep its "no gays here!" image, and every single one of them is alone with his fears.
How sad that, in 2021, some folks (even well-meaning, "pro-gay" people like yourself) still think in terms of someone having to "admit" or "confess" to being gay, as if they should feel guilt about their sexual orientation.
@@Julia-lk8jn - Not quite what you might think… it was a very different time. He married and had kids. His “best friend” whom he met in the army, did the same. They lived near each other, their families knew each other, they vacationed together and shared a bed together occasionally. Their “special friendship” was a secret their entire lives, and they absolutely did not consider themselves gay even though they were.
@@winsboy - I think you’re projecting, I said no such thing. I met them in the 80’s, they lived apart in the same condominium complex, keeping separate residences after one’s divorce, and the other was widowed, for “appearances.” They would occasionally stay over at the others house, but only if they thought no one was looking. It took years for them to admit to anyone, even me, even each other, that they had anything other than a lifelong friendship. I remember asking them as one was caring for the other on his deathbed dying from cancer, and both denied it. It was an entirely different time, they did what they felt they had to, and lived the best way they thought they could. It was both odd, touching, and a little hard to grasp… but they had been in love since their 20’s, lived a life as together as they could both accept. To attempt to apply modern relationship or gay relationship norms, is to not understand what it must have been like to be gay back then.
@Julia -- I've often blasted Bill Clinton's agreeing to "Don't Ask, Don't tell" for his blindness to how that hurt service men and women. Imagine being in your barracks and not being to hang your partner's photo in your locker like everyone else ...because that would be "telling."
I remember as a kid being very struck by the Quantum Leap episode about this subject. Al, a Navy veteran, quite a bit older, is deeply unsure about the idea of serving alongside a gay man. But at the end of the episode he changes his mind and when Sam is surprised he says mildly, "I was wrong. I'm not always right." Hearing an older man say that so simply really touched me.
Matt has a video about that episode.
...Hasn't the Navy historically been one of the gayest branches of the military?
@@wordforger Haha as much as it can be measured, though to be fair Al was a pilot and as we all know from the documentary Top Gun, Navy pilots are never gay.
Loved that series....every episode was gold
"Running for Honor," a very well done episode. Al changing his mind at the end was a major growing moment for the character.
Thanks for covering this episode. I'm a 2005 Don't Ask - Don't Tell discharge from the Air Force. I was an Arabic translator, and a good one, cut loose right when we needed specialists in that language the most. The military's decision-making process is confounding to this day.
Is it any wonder we lost in Afghanastan? somebody should tell them they should focus on the enemy, f*ck these guys
As a gay Arabian. Im sorry for what happened to you but at least you're respected now and got your basic human rights. I wish I was you. Because I will never get mine here.
@@VampireNewl Afghanistan is not an Arab country and no one there speaks Arabic. It's not even in the middle east. You don't even know about the country you invaded for 20 years no wonder your country lost.
@@naifalbaihed1230 Yeah but we didn't pull out of an Arabian country the month before writing the comment. I think you're missing some of the contex
How much I respect the Army, I suspect you Job would have been wicketly One-sided.
I know im cynical, but from what our Boys said, your boys chefs there not interested in what Natives said.
It helps that Hawkeye has become an icon for bisexuals everywhere in the time since the show aired (maybe even while the show aired, but sadly I have no evidence for that). It was fantastic to see a character who so brazenly flirted with other men, even if it was under the guise of a joke. He even gets a smooch in if memory serves
@juan abee man you seem like you have a sad life
@juan abee Go be angry with the rest of your tribe on Facebook. Nobody here wants you.
@juan abee - You are so wrong to present your sadly misinformed personal opinions as scientific facts. Especially with surrogacy as an option, gay people can procreate with their own DNA if they choose to do so, just like heterosexuals. Do you similarly condemn a heterosexual person who is childless (by choice or by medical reasons) as a "creature that exists for no reason, just consumes limited resources, and pollutes as a dead ends in DNA," or do you hypocritically refrain from using such demeaning characterizations only in this particular case? Even without children, brilliant and creative gay people throughout history like Alan Turing (the cryptanalyst who deciphered the secret codes used by Nazi Germany under Hitler during WWII) and Michaelangelo Buonarroti (the Renaissance artist) have made significant contributions and lasting legacies to humankind that you apparently take for granted - accomplishments that are very likely to have much greater impact than what you can manage to do in your own lifetime, even if you choose to breed. Having offspring does not automatically make a heterosexual person a good parent or human being, shown by the fact there are already far too many "unwanted" kids who are abandoned, abused and/or neglected by their irresponsible biological parents. Your insinuations with gay people and abortion clinics are illogical and ridiculous, because gay people have to make deliberate and conscious choices to have children via adoption and/or surrogacy, as opposed to the typically unplanned births that many heterosexuals end up putting up for adoption, aborting or raising grudgingly. Your disparagement of Islam can just as well apply to numerous spiritual leaders who mentally, physically and sexually abuse their own followers involved in Catholicism, other religions and cults for years under their veneers of false respectability and sanctimony. Way back in 1973 (almost half a century ago!), the American Psychiatric Association no longer considered homosexuality to be a mental illness. Your arguments are self-contradictory, unjustifiable and fallacious. Obviously you have not evolved with the times, and still have much to learn in order to join the rest of humanity to live in the real world in the 21st Century.
@juan abee LOL, how is evolution relevant to the question of equal rights? Like even slightly? "Childless people don't contribute to evolution of the species" -- okay, and? Who cares?
just so you know, straight guys who are completely comfortable with their sexuality have no problem with gays. My best friend from college was gay and I wouldn't hesitate to "flirt" with him. Was liberating for me, because the conservative trashbin I came from always tried to brand me as gay because I could relate to anyone.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was drafted in 1970 and served honorably in the US Army until 1972. Part of the draft physical had a question about sexuality and we were forced to go between physical exam stations wearing nothing but underwear, possibly to see if we'd be aroused. Like so many others, I lied to get in to the service for the reason you stated: A 4-F status would have been public and the reason for it would have been public; I would never have been able to work. I was not asked about my sexuality when I entered civil service and was able to retire after over 40 years with the government. I spoke to my CO (commanding officer) years after my military service and confirmed that he knew I was gay but said nothing - a wonderful man to work for.
Thank you -- for your service and for your strength.
Correct me if I'm recalling it wrong... The specific written question was, "Are you a homosexual?" Yes - No. Going back to that time in my mind I thought, but, if you had slept with the opposite sex at some point in your life then you must be "bisexual" and you could honestly answer the question with a "no." I'm expressing this in the terms of how I personally justified this to myself at the time I was checking the "no" box on the paperwork. Also, the whole being naked thing with all of the other recruits did seem a bit strange to me at the time. 35+ years later I called my old straight Army buddy to see how he was doing after all these years. From Basic Training, AIT and to our duty stations we were always assigned together. To my surprise he asked me why I never realized that he had always been in love with me and why I never tried to sleep with him?
@@DavidODuvall What an experience! Nothing similar in my case except a sergeant invited four of us trainees to dinner one time, I think during AIT. I felt uncomfortable because I thought I knew what was going on. After I got out, I asked one of the other [straight] guys years later about that night and he had not realized it was an "interview" to see which one or ones of us would want to sleep with the sergeant. I did not take him up on his implied offer - just too scared.
I truly don't remember the wording at the examination station - just the intent.
My MOS - in case you were wondering - was 91A but I worked as a 71A. I was not as good as Radar but, then again, I served all my time at Fort Sam, not in Vietnam.
@@Zeyev - during my tour of duty I had a lot of opportunities to sleep with other soldiers but, was always too afraid and politely ran away. I was a 34Y (computer tech) assigned to Airborne Ranger Rapid Deployment Support (who had no computers until several years later). I can tell you there were a lot of gay and bi Rangers in the service in the early 1980s - but only after they'd had a beer or 2 and there wasn't anyone else nearby. In the early 1980s they were still searching out the "gays" and "lesbians" in order to get rid of them so I was a bit paranoid. Years later (1992) I married a Navy Vet and we used to have fun at the VA Hospital in Columbia, Missouri. We had T-Shirts that said, "My Husband is a U.S. Navy Vet" and "My Husband is a U.S. Army Vet" and we often wore them to the VA Hospital for our appointments. It was comic gold! Over the years, all but 1 VA doctor was very supportive! When Steve (my husband) was dying of cancer (2008) they let me stay with him in the ICU and treated me like any other spouse. I'm sorry that I'm rambling..... Take care of yourself and thank you for making me smile.
@@DavidODuvall I'm very sorry to hear of your husband's passing. May good memories continue to provide comfort. I'm happy though that the VA treated you like the normal people you are.
One other matter that you may or may not feel. Those of us who were in during Vietnam were rarely thanked or even acknowledged when we got out of the service. It has been jarring over the past few years to hear people, well-meaning people, thank me for my service. I wanted it then; it feels too late now. Perhaps that's just me.
We're both rambling. We gay vets are probably more common than we know but it's always a pleasure to meet another one. Good BS is hard to find.
Something that always shocks me about Gay Culture in America is how recent major changes in law surrounding the LGBTQ+ community have happened; only in the past decade and that is fairly recent. I love your videos Matt because they don’t just focus on representation in pop culture, but in history and reality as well. They show how brave people had to take a stand for us, and while it took such a long time, it is thanks to them that our rights our rights in this country are stronger than ever before.
I get that same sense as well, even though I have been alive throughout the changing times. It's almost like if the civil rights act had been signed only 4 decades after slavery ended. On the other hand, I fear that it might be a high-water mark for the LGBTQ+ movement. If you asked people in the late 90's, I think most of them would have said the abortion issue was settled... but now, those rights are hanging on by a thread.
@@bubbafug00gle51 Abortion was never settled in the 1990's. If you thought that, you weren't paying attention. The anti-choice movement has just gotten sneakier, and less interested in trying to actually persuade people.
@@Magnulus76 This is why I used the term "most people." It clearly wasn't settled, as the ground keeps shifting. This is exactly my point. There was a SCOTUS ruling so the legality was set as "precedent". This gave the rights a sense of permanence.
Similarly the LGBTQ+ community has won a SCOTUS decision and other smaller legal victories. This should create precedent. It does not. These rights will continue to suffer a death from a thousand cuts if people aren't vigilant. The pro-choice movement never waned. The individuals who weren't actively part of the movement - but supported the choice - stopped paying attention though. I fear the same thing can happen again with LGBTQ+ rights.
I'm always shocked at how recent the beginning of anti-gay sentiment is. What happened just before WWI that got everyone in such a twist? And why was it so hard for people to look back and realize that they weren't bothered before because there was nothing to be bothered about, and there still isn't?
@@adde9506 "Recent". there's nothing recent about anti-gay sentiment in western culture.
“US officials will probe sexual deviants”
Poor choice of words
well if they know your down, its all good so long as its consensual.
Can anyone else see Hawkweye beaming and lying back over a desk giving the bedroom eyes? "Ready whenever you are, Sir~"
‘Finally, our tax dollars put to good use’
Made me giggle....
Not as bad as the WWII headline. US Army push bottles up Germans. Some punctuation needed.
Been watching m.a.s.h. for the first time recently and ive been really really happy about the way they talk about racism, lgbtq issues, war itself. Used to think getting into a show my grandparents' generation was into in their 20s would end quickly after an episode that'd have some pretty blatantly awful stuff in it, but it's amazing.
As a trans person who has many thoughts about gender stuff, Klinger and how he is perceived by the show and the characters in-universe is really enjoyable. Maybe this part isn't as super-duper forward as the "George" episode, but damn it makes me feel things.
yeah totally! the way other characters mostly compliment klinger and dont talk down to him is very refreshing, and as a nonbinary person, i see myself in the way klinger and even sometimes hawkeye presents themselves
I remember a scene where Father Mulcahy encourages someone to say something nice about Klinger's new white gloves and it's extremely sweet.
I think part of the reason modern audiences often have a mixed relationship with Klinger is that the joke isn't the dresses, and isn't that Klinger is possibly trans, even though it looks that way to our cynical first glances. The joke (brought in at the suggestion of Jamie Farr himself, during filming of his first episode) is that he's straight. As in a VERY hetero-normative wannabe tough guy from a kinda rough neighborhood.
It's in the way you look at it, I suppose, but the joke wasn't "ha ha, dude in a dress!" but instead, "ha ha person in the dress is a total Dude." This perspective was reinforced by the numerous "reveal shots" of someone approaching him or trying to get his attention from behind or in low visibility, only to be shocked to discover the dress is on a guy who needs a shave and is holding a cigar between his teeth. The funny reveal is the dude, not the clothes. The clothes are the lie.
Klinger was also a commentary on letting go of gender norms being possible for ANYONE who is open to it. Max took up sewing and studying fashion magazines, because he found something he enjoyed doing while he was trying for that much-wanted Section 8, even though being fashion forward had no impact on the results he was purportedly aiming for.
And he's a commentary on conscription, the practice of putting guns in the hands of people who are horrified at the idea of killing others, just because they are fit and male. Let's be honest, if Klinger had landed in a combat unit, there wouldn't have been any time for the dresses. He would have just offed himself after the first time he was forced to take a life. Also, if Klinger's family had been well-off, his odds of having a gun forced into his hands to begin with would have been lower. Him being a rough, working class fellow was important for more than the contrast with the dainty frocks. It was also social commentary.
Barney miller was a good show around the same time as MASH that tackled relevant issues of the time. In one episode Harris who is one of the regular characters and a black plain cloths police officer Gets shot at by 2 white cops because they assumed he was the criminal they were looking for. The Criminal was a white guy and got away.
@@LucyLynette Obviously, doctors were subject to the draft in the early 50s Korean War, not just the underclass, as Hawkeye and Winchester often complained. It was the nurses, the women, who were all-volunteer.
This actually puts a lot more weight behind an earlier episode where Hawkeye makes a gay joke at Radar and he reacts quite in my eyes then hard saying "That's not funny!" i thought it was simply an overreaction from a young soldier but hearing this putting it in its actual historical perspective it's clear that if that joke was taken seriously Radar stood to lose the ability to inherit the family farm and help out his aged mother and uncle once he returned from his tour of duty.
Props to the show writers for sticking to vocabulary contemporary to the setting: "colored" and "Negro". At the time this was set, President Truman had only recently ordered racial integration of the armed services. Not everyone was happy about that. That issue wasn't covered until MASH Season 10. We got to see a young Laurence Fishburne in that episode.
My father was U.S Army for 21 years (Corps of Engineers). As part of the recently integrated service in the 1950s, Dad and his troops had chits to use at restaurants. Dad's troops were racially diverse for the time, but restaurants in some areas still wouldn't allow then inside to eat. Dad said "my troops can't eat, I won't eat," and they took their business elsewhere. Dad was in Korea during the war; M*A*S*H was his favorite show and remains one of mine. Definitely takes #1 in best series of all time.
I agree about the use of terms; retro-actively inserting "afro-american" would have just felt too weird.
I wince everytime I hear the n-word used in a movie, but having movies / shows to depict some cleaned up history where well, right, slavery wasn't a exactly a nice thing, but hey, economic necessity and good people on both sides and all ? That would be worse.
Well negro wasn’t racist back then tho. It was just the proper term. Negro became racist cause it sounded too similar to the N word. Also old racist people would say things like “I don’t like that a negro family moved in down the street” and we all know they chose negro to subtly use the N word. But it wasn’t a racism in the 1950s like it is today. Today if someone said negro they are 98% likely to be racist, back then they were all racist as well but it wasn’t a racist word
@@LucasFernandez-fk8se They would say "Nigra".
Colored and Negro were contemporary for the 70s as well. Even colored is a common term and has made a resurgence nowadays.
Always love the historical context you put the shows in, both in the flow of history generally and in the context of gay rights against that history.
"Frank represents the past." I can't think of a single time when Frank represented anything else, except maybe 'smarmy trash person.'
Lawrence Linville really was excellent in the role; totally loathsome.
My only problem with MASH was that Frank had nothing not one redeeming feature, he was only ever the butt of jokes a sad 2D man who was just shadow of a man, like a fart in the room you know he was there but were happy only when you didn't have to deal. Would of been so bad to of give him one good trait.
Charles was a huge ass but an skilled surgeon, greedy but not blindly cruel, he saw himself as better than everyone else not by skin color or anything he just was .
Poor Frank would it of been so hard to give him something. Kind to dogs, feeds cats, great with kids
@@colinmaclaughlanweir9670 I've always wondered why they didn't give Frank's character a growth arc. Perhaps there were creative differences with Larry Linville. I remember hearing writers for Friends saying they couldn't let their characters grow too much, or they'd lose the successful dynamic they had built. Maybe the writers couldn't see Frank and Margaret as three-dimensional people, and wouldn't give them material they could work with. Linville left the show after two years, and perhaps the writers realized they didn't need a built-in villain.
Hawkeye and trapper needed someone to foil them. Well try to. That is where the comedy comes from.
@@colinmaclaughlanweir9670 Frank had a few moments.
* One time there was a Korean boy trapped in a minefield and he was just as concerned as everyone else, if not more so. Perhaps because he was a father.
* He was struck as much as anyone else by the death of Henry.
* He joined all the other male major characters [no pun intended] drawing straws to see who would go on a date with a clumsy nurse, since all the women in camp had decided that none of them would go out with anyone unless someone went out with her. (Lysistrata Gambit)
* One time after he and Margret broke up, he got a good zinger on her and shared a laugh over it with Hawk & BJ.
I remember this episode when I first saw it. I was 12 in 1974 and knew I was 'homosexual' (my parents got a liberal newspaper [that I read, daily], so I knew the word, and its' meaning). Yeah. I was gay. Also, I was in Australia.
I watched it and was thrilled to see Hawkeye's reaction! There were people that didn't have an instant negative reaction! This thrilled me beyond belief (it didn't hurt that I had a bit of a crush on Alan Alder at the time).
As soon as I saw this was a MASH related episode, I knew that it had to be this one episode.
The other positive of this episode to an Australian, was that it was the first time that I understood the racial prejudice that devoured / enveloped the USA. I just couldn't understand it (I do now, Australia was (is) racist, just we didn't have POC that were in public life - we had effectively kicked them aside, so I didn't understand it), so it opened my eyes to what was happening in the side-lines.
A truely astounding episode!
When I first saw this as a kid in thr 70's, Hawkeye's empathy gave me sign of relief. This was a milestone moment for TV and the culture.
The clip at the end with Obama recognizing Frank Kameny brought me to tears. Nicely done video.
When I was a kid I thought there were two series, the sad mash and the funny one
This is hilarious! Also, I love that most people here have fond memories of this show from their childhood
I mean, you weren't *really* wrong
Cause suacide is painless, it comes in many phases da da Dee Dee do da de de dah dah
That makes sense because it was known for having two seemingly unrelated storylines within an episode. Usually one funny and one serious to balance the show and achieve what they wanted.
What's crazy is Frank was committing adultry the whole time he was in the military with Margaret. Margaret knew Frank was married too and still went along with it. As much as Hawkeye flirted a lot of it was borderline and would be seen as harassment now.
That was the whole thing about Frank, a hypocritical piece of trash.
Hypocrisy is the universal language.
@@pvanukoff Exactly. That and the general Red Scare paranoia he represented were the primary uses of the character. For the people watching the show in the 70's, he represented the worst qualities of their parents' generation, who would have been Frank's age during the time period the show takes place.
It was true to life. The ones who scream the most about how other people behave, and who try to make people behave in a certain way are typically the ones with no actual moral code. And wouldn't you know that just to the right of where I am typing this, there is a picture of Jimmy Swaggart with tears rolling down his face and a rictus of overblown, kabuki theatrical sorrow claiming how he "sinned before God." Just too perfect how things line up sometimes.
That last part with Hawkeye actually gets addressed and Hawkeye quits it, fortunately. He feels very horrible once he realizes how shitty he’s being, and his flirty following that is usually him tossing jokes and making light as he does when he puts up that character mask he’s made for himself in the camp, or genuinely offering interest but being willing to back off.
As a female Army veteran, I remember hearing the same argument that being female was a threat to national security, and that somehow, my femininity would interfere with my military duties. Luckily, I got to attend an integrated, co-ed basic training where the girls all proved they could keep up with the boys and even excel beyond some. Homophobia and misogyny usually go hand in hand. (*also, I'm commenting from my husband's account because I'm too lazy to sign out/in. He loves it when I do that, haha)
My mother served in the Army in the mid 1960s. Unfortunately she got pregnant and back then, that meant an automatic discharge, albeit honorable. I know that she hated being forced to choose between being a mother and serving her country.
Honestly, misogyny and homophobia ... to me, it feels awfully like the only way of bonding some man have is to make ugly remarks about women, brag about their sexual escapades or possible compare their ####s, so anybody not male & heterosexual presents a social problem because suddenly they realize that's 90% of their themes.
Don't get me wrong, I know that's not all men, or even most. But I think they turn up in the classical 'real manly men' jobs.
I can't say anything about gay men, but men act entirely different when women are around. This means that they might act differentially in the women's favor rather than the objective.
This isn’t to be mean but didn’t the army have to substantially lower the standards to let women in? Like the physical standards ? I thought I remembered they recently made a much easier entry test to be unisex and the girls still failed most of the time ? Again it’s been months if not a year since I’ve heard that story so maybe it’s untrue ? Or the women you served with were just more capable than most female recruits today?
@@whenthedustfallsaway That's the fault of misogynistic men, not of women.
MASH is one of the best series ever. The fact it mostly holds up decades later is impressive.
I served with at least two gay men during the "Don't ask, Don't tell" period. One guy all of us enlisted knew, we just didn't mention it to non-comms or officers. The other kept himself closeted and I never knew, even though he was my roommate and friend, until after he retired from the military years later. It was this revelation that made me think really hard about how I treated, and thought about gays. It opened my eyes and my mind. During that time I thought I was pretty open minded, but to be honest I was still trash. Maybe not as bad as some since I didn't care if someone who served was gay, but I'm sure I said the typical stupid shit that guys who want to be tough say. I've since have been trying my best to make amends for my past. My own son is very active with LGBTQI+ and I'm doing my best to give him the support he needs.
That clip of Alan Alda from 30 Rock had me actually choke on my drink because I'd never seen him as anything other than Hawkeye and didn't instantly recognised him, yet his voice has _barely_ changed.
He was great in The West Wing.
M. A. S. H. was amazing. Like any older show, elements of it have aged poorly. But it was a smart show that was both serious and seriously funny, and was extremely progressive for its day. In some aspects, it's still progressive even by current standards. For anyone interested, it holds up well for current viewing
Would you mind sharing which elements aged poorly?
@@sparksfly6149 the most notable aspect I’ve heard criticised is Hawkeye’s incessant flirting verging on harassment- see his interactions with Margaret- but this was addressed by the show itself and he got a development arc where he realised he was often going overboard. Otherwise I think it’s just the usuals of the era, some language, how certain minorities were treated, the interactions with/ portrayals of the Korean soldiers, etc. I haven’t watched in ages so I’m probably forgetting some, but yeah, it’s astoundingly progressive still!
@@sparksfly6149 A lot of the flirty or sexual relationships, especially in the early seasons, would be considered straight up harassment now. Some of the language is pretty dated though to be fair, since it takes place during the Korean War that is how these people would have talked
I wasn't a Fan of Winchester rejecting a France Doctor for beeing in a Relationship and living together unmarried.
@@Sunaki1000 I always felt like that episode though was heartbreaking in that it said more about how Winchester’s painfully backward views got in the way of his own happiness. I see that episode as still being a pretty good one - you just end up feeling so bad for him because he’s being so old fashioned so he ends up hurting himself and the show actually celebrates the more modern woman that he’s trying to date.
The final episode of M*A*S*H had one if the grimmest, most shocking and moving pieces of character development I've ever seen in any film or TV show. It wasn't contrived or gratuitous, but sheer genius. It would have been so easy to do a cosy wrap up episode, but the makers showed right up to the end that they wouldn't shy away from any subject or go easy on the audience.
That was the single most watched episode of any show in TV history. IIRC, something like 83 million people watched it. Still one of the best finales ever.
@@Serai3 actually, it will never be known EXACTLY how many people watched it.
I didn’t know it until recently, but by Alan Alda,
‘Many people and places had “watch parties,’ either in private homes or at community centers or VFW’s (Veterans of Foreign Wars).’
Remember watching this as a kid in the 1990s and thinking how can people think being gay is wrong.
the crazy part is that it was still happening to some degree in the 90s.
There's a book of fairy tales, called, The Bible!
@ Aaron White
I served in the military from 1970 to 1991, there were still many people who thought having WOMEN in the ranks was wrong.
The last base that I served at, one of my co-workers went a bit ...overboard, whenever he noticed a " new " young woman walking through the building where we worked (BTW, our small unit had no female members, though we had a few women as support staff, but they didn't count as they we older, married, and had children). He was like something out of a Looney Tunes cartoon.
I have to admit that I myself was nearly slapped with a sexual harassment charge, tho it stemmed from a personality conflict I had with a woman who's " know it all attitude " I didn't appreciate. She was the only woman in uniform who ever " rubbed me the wrong way " and had she been a man I still would have despised her attitude.
Before working at that unit I worked under a female officer. A few people in my building asked how I could take orders from a woman. I never cared if you were a man or woman. I cared about a person's attitude and/or what kind of decisionmaker they were.
I was in the Navy, but heard that the Marine Corps had many service members who were LESS than tolerant of women in their ranks than any other service as the 20th century came to a close.
I think it's dumb to persecute or prosecute anyone for what they do in private.
@@howardkerr8174 Oh fuck me!
@@oliviawolcott8351 And still in 2021, carefully hidden.
I love how you make learning about LGBTQ history engaging and thoughtful. I love watching your content and am always excited to see more. For so long I tried to delete my homosexuality...and now that I have been out I love to see the wonderful queer world that was hidden from me.
Thank you, Matt, for bringing up Frank Kameny, a true LGBTQ+ Hero
+
The beginning section of this episode, explaining what M*A*S*H was and why it was important, kinda blew my over-40 mind. Can I just say that if you are reading this and not already well-versed in the show, please dive in a little more and give it a watch! It remains one of the best-ever television shows. My dad and I are on opposite sides of the dove-hawk spectrum but one of the few things we can agree on is that we enjoy watching M*A*S*H!
As an Australian, I generally enjoy British comedy and British shows better (and Australian ones, of course!). But, having said that, M*A*S*H* was sooooo far ahead of it's time. M*A*S*H* was the only America show I really liked (I find a lot of American humour a little childish, and the punchlines too obvious to be funny - sorry!), but M*A*S*H* was very different - the humour was more British like, more making fun of oneself, as is essential in British humour. It was pretty much universally loved in Australia - I know of no-one who didn't watch it. It was definitely by far my favourite television show of all time. I loved both the comedy and the serious side - actually I loved the mix. I grew up with it as a child of the 70s. There's no other show like it. It really informed my young mind, and thus much of my personal ethics today. I grew up never understanding how people could possibly seriously think and judge like the 'Franks' of this world. M*A*S*H* first and foremost taught the values of humanity.
It’s a real travesty that we don’t learn about Frank Kameny in high school. At least I didn’t. What a god damn hero.
I’ve never heard of him either, but I’m not an American, but still, I’ve heard of Harvey Milk....
for real. he basically started pride.
The two things I was super interested in high school was astronomy and activism. I can't believe I'd never heard of him until this point!
I agree!
It's important to remember that for many of us discrimination against the gay community was recent...within our lifetimes. And in many ways, if you live outside a major metropolitan centre, it goes on full-force.
We didn't fight just for ourselves, we fought for those that didn't have the power to do so. If you have the privilege to be out, work to free others.
That one hit me hard. My mom was a veteran, Korea era. She and my father were both U.S. Navy, joined in 1951 and discharged in 1955. They married while still in service in 1955, in Pearl Harbor. I was born in 57, my sibs two years apart each. My parents divorced in 1962. That's when, according to my mom, my father worked to get her thrown out of town (the largest town in the panhandle of Texas) by telling everyone she was gay. He managed to get custody of us and it was my senior year in high school before I met her again. My dad hit the ceiling when he found out.
She was gay. She never said the words, but she was a lesbian. There were so many things that were big old rainbow flags to this. She went to barber school and was an old barber-pole barber, not a salon hairdresser. I don't think I ever saw her wearing a dress, she preferred men's jeans and shirts. Her hair was short, slicked back. And she had a "room mate" who she was with for over 50 years. Mom would be closed on Mondays and go up to the VA hospital and cut veterans hair for free for as long as she was able to work (into her 80s). Mom used to tell stories of all the parties she and Alice went to, ones where the gay guys were there (and she would tell me 'you would not believe who in this town is gay."). She and Alice had separate bedrooms but they were a couple, the sleeping arraignments were for show.
Alice passed away first and my mom didn't do well after that. I don't live in town, but 800 miles away. We got the call she was majorly dehydrated and hadn't eaten in over a week, the call coming from the waitress at the greasy spoon mom used to have lunch, they got worried about her and went to her house. It was a wreck, mom had just given up on everything. She went into an assisted living facility and passed away in 2016.
She lived to see LGBTI couples marry but she never, ever said anything about being a lesbian herself. I often asked if she would marry again and she would tell me "I swore off of men after your father." She never talked about getting married to Alice. I had forgotten about the M*A*S*H episode until I watched this (I was an avid fan) and it brought up so many things about her and her life. Thank you for the video.
Thanks for sharing your family's story. It's important, because the lives of lesbians, especially closeted ones, all too often disappear from history. Your mother was a heroic survivor, in & out of the military is sounds like!
Your mother sounds like an incredible woman. I don’t know why but your story made me shed a tear. Just incredible the stories of closeted folks..
MASH was still on the air when a fellow soldier, a real quiet guy, came to my wedding on base in loud, full drag, complete with a giant auburn wig. It was assumed he was a goner, but there he was Monday morning & every morning till I was deployed overseas, in the mess hall cooking & serving the breakfast slop. Nobody told on him. Not even the chaplain. Amazing how that was the only reason he got to stay in his job.
Damn! A real life Klinger!
Hawkeye Pierce is Not-Straight. Not saying he's gay either, but definitely not a Kinsey 0.
More like a “3ish” on the scale.
@@eduardoramirezjr4403 Absolutely! At least 5 times a Season of MASH I have a genuine spit-take moment of "The network let him say that? In the SEVENTIES?!" This show was a minor miracle.
I've always seen Hawkeye as somewhere around heteroflexible or bisexual
@@darkurgeapologist Anyway imaginable. He would be fun in the sack, or on the cot.
definitely! i sometimes think im projecting my queerness onto him but he is incredibly queer coded. i think there was an episode in season 4/5 about romantic relationships with a scene between a straight couple that drew a parallel to a scene between hawkeye and bj
I am a veteran and I served from 2005 to 2013. One of the most memorable moments in my short military career was the end of Don't ask Don't tell. I am a bisexual male and was glad to be able to serve openly!
When I was a kid, Vietnam was on the (British) TV every night. As to MASH, we all watched it, and yes this episode made an impact on a young kid, me, watching it. I recognised myself. Not altogether sure I recognised it was set in an earlier war, it seemed very much part of 'now' to us, as someone else commented earlier.
Having grown up in an era of change, when it was still expected, or even 'OK', that being gay (or at least admitting it), closed off most of the desirable careers. I remember the revelation that things were beginning to change. One moment was in law school: a friend and I were doing our second year summer internship with Jones Day. Some event, don't remember what, he decided to attend with his boyfriend. I was floored. Sure, they had a policy, but what did that mean. It turned out, they meant it - upper echelon law firms were no longer turning away top law school grads - gay or not. Talent, or at least the application of hard work anyway, canceled out Saturday night on the dance floor at Tracks and whatever that 4th jello shot inspired. 22 and free at last :)
What year did that happen?
@@alexac3098 1988 or 89
Being a HUGE fan of M*A*S*H, it was odd hearing you call the character John (yes, his given name) instead of the nickname most called him by which was Trapper. I would have really been put off if you had called Hawkeye Ben or Benjamin... Lol
I don't know of course, but 'Trapper' refers to him trapping a woman in a train car, so maybe it's being avoided for that reason.
that's because this interviewer always seems to over accentuate elements of an episode that a more astute fan wouldn't do.
Thing is though that there's more than one "John" in _M*A*S*H._ Beisdes Trapper John there's Ho-Jon, John Patrick Francis Mulcahy, and Ugly John, all of whom could also be called "Hawkeye's friend Jo[h]n."
@@jb888888888 Only one of them on the screen at the time his name was said though. And the only one of those characters who's more than a bit part is Mulcahy, who gets called John by one person in the show, ever. So I think it's unambiguous in context.:)
@@TheHopperUK agreed that it's unambiguous in context, but I also agree with the first poster...its still jarring and like he hadn't really watched the show.
I was in the army 1972. Us WACs “dated” the gay guys to have a fun friends night out, and the gay guys got left alone by the homophobes.
As a young lesbian, do you mind if I ask you questions pertaining to your experience back then?
When Frank said, "One of those types that don't like girls," my rejoinder was, "A Republican?"
Odd that Frank was the absolutely perfect ideal Republican of today, LOL!
That does sound like something Hawkeye would respond to Frank with honestly.
To me MASH was never the same after Frank left the show. Hawkeye lost his rival, Margaret didnt have a lot to do, Charles was a weak replacement.
@@michaeladkins6 I prefer Hawkeye and Margaret’s friendship growth after Frank left. And at that point, he’d become such a caricature that there wasn’t much left they could do with him. Though I know the cast greatly missed Larry Linville after he left. He was by all accounts a lovely man, and the very opposite of the character he played.
@@michaeladkins6 also, I liked Charles. I think the Mozart POW scene made his entire character worth it. And I’m glad they didn’t just go with a Frank 2.0 character. Much like when Trapper left and was replaced with Hunnicutt- they weren’t the same character, and that was important.
I always remember a friend from high school talking to her future husband, a member of the national guard, saying that the military's ban on gays was because men were afraid they might have to tolerate the same sexual harassment they felt it was fine for women to tolerate.
Truth! They can dish it out but they sure will pass unconstitutional legislation rather than take it!
Im pretty sure its becuase of homophobie
The Revolutionary War Hero Who Was Openly Gay
Baron Friedrich von Steuben was known for his bravery and the discipline and grit he brought to the American troops
And the US got him because Prussia didn't want him, and Europe in general didn't want him. I wonder what homophobes might think if they knew the US (in part) owed its existence to a gay man.
Is he know to be gay?
I've always heard that it is suspected, highly likely (in no small part to things mentioned here), but in no way even close to a certainty. This very much could be the standard homophobic bias in culture at play and watering down what they could, so I'm curious if it is more definitive.
@@scaper8 Probably a good topic for a video on this channel
@@scaper8 if I recall correctly he was chased out of just about every country he went to in Europe because of 'sexual indecency' and he never married, choosing instead to live in a shared home with one of his officers and an aide-de-camp, to whom he left his house after he died.
I graduated from Von Steuben high school in Chicago in 1972. No surprise that this info never came up when learning about our namesake. I doubt that it has changed, but it sure would be nice if it has.
That was one of the few early season episodes that stood out to me above the rest. The Lavender Scare was one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th Century for this country as far as gay rights go. I didn't know that Ike did that, and it definitely puts him down a bracket for favorite Presidents now. Thanks for the video, and all of the previous ones too, more importantly, thanks for the openness; like it was said in the episode, having to hide it is more damaging.
hell yes! this show was so formative for me, and this episode was so amazing. I didn't realize as a kid how revolutionary it was for tv at the time
Loved this episode of mash. So good to see so many characters taking George's side, not just Hawkeye. And they're not just doing it to oppose Frank, which is sometimes the case, but because they honestly want to help George
I loved the joke Alan got to make in 30 rock "Why is he crying over a chicken and a kid, I thought this was a comedy show?" best meta reference ever IMO.
Mash is a show that still makes me emotional just hearing the theme song - I really value how it engages in real themes, regardless of some ways it doesn’t age well
Thanks for this. I’m 52 and have fond memories of watching the later seasons of the show with my (very Progressive) father, who LOVED the show, mainly for its compassion amidst adversity. I, of course, came to love it as well, mainly thru it’s reruns years later. (But we did cry together during the showing of its Final Ep in ‘83). Funny seeing this video now… Last month I introduced it to my son, age 13. We started from the beginning and are on season 4. So we just recently saw the episode spoken about here. My son ABSOLUTELY adores the show…it is his favorite prob of ANY show (prob more than The Office… and THATS saying something). He constantly every day wants to be sure we watch an episode (he hopes 2). This clearly makes me very happy, and I tell him his grandfather would be as well (who died before he was born). I think the shows has aged EXTREMELY well, and we often comment on its relevance to issues today….yes, the occasional condescending/sexist comments, and handsy-nature by the Drs are difficult and concerning, and of course we talk about that. But these are easily overshadowed by the positive messages such as the focus of this video. And as an aside… those commenting on Hawkeyes sexuality, there is a recent episode (4?) where Hawkeye wants to break a record by cramming as many people in a jeep. One of his comments during its occurrence is something to the fact of no groping and if any happens then as punishment any gropers must report to his tent later… Afterwards followed by the grope-ees! The show is a 10 out of 10 for sure.
I love M*A*S*H. My favourite of all the rerun shows I watched as a child. It has its problems and flaws, but it was actually so progressive for its time (both the time it depicts and the time it was made). And while it may not be medically accurate, it sure was emotionally accurate. The best anti war show ever made, I reckon.
I'm sure it would have been medically accurate for the early 50s, which is when it was set. They did have an MD as an advisor.
Well done once again, Matt. I was pretty young when I first saw a repeat of this episode of "MASH" and never forgot it. Thank you for giving it context.
It's a shame that this is how I have to learn about our history from a youtuber and not where it should be coming from, our education system.
Until fairly recently, there would have been almost no one who could teach it.
@@jwb52z9: and even then CONservatives with throw a hissyfit over the truth being taught. Just look at how they are whinging over CRT.
I’ve not yet come across someone saying “this should be taught in our schools” and it wasn’t mentioned in at least one lesson while I was at school. “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” was taught in my Texas classroom. Edit: accidentally replied before finishing oops
@@troyjardine5850 Personally I have a lot of issues with CRT and think there should be voices out there that are critical of it. Obviously the mainstream conservatives aren’t going to be nuanced in their arguments but they aren’t wrong for disagreeing with the perspective.
Hello Demi fiend profile pic
MASH tried a lot of difficult subjects like homosexuality, race, prejudice in general, war, friendship, and more. To this day, I like watching most episodes, specially the first 3 seasons.
Even though I'm not even an adult yet, I've watched MASH a lot as I've grown up. When I was younger, the more serious episodes didn't make an impact on me, but as I grew and realized who I was, episodes like this and many of the other more progressive episodes hit far too close to home. Even growing up in the early 2000's, I've heard all kinds of homophobia and transphobia. It makes me glad to know that I'm not the only one who feels connected to this show.
As someone who grew up with MASH, that makes me glad for you, too.
I'm trans, and I remember the transphobia from my friends and and family and church. this was in the 2000's and 2010's. it was the main reason I didn't come out until 2019.
I think it’s interesting how a man making a pass at another man would’ve be reason enough for the unit to take further action against the gay soldier, while at the same time, Hawkeye and Trapper’s constant objectification of women throughout the show and instances where they do things that are now usually considered (and should’ve been considered) super creepy and inacceptable, like grabbing women and forcing them to kiss them, was totally normal.
I mean I get it was a different time (I still love the show and appreciate the progressive importance it held at the time) but it’s kinda wild that even 50 years later this is still something women have to deal with.
No joke! AND, women in the military are still getting sexually harassed. I don't know if we will ever find out what really happened in Fort Hood, Texas.
Ok I’m only going by memory here so I could be way off base, but the nurses were generally tough cookies who could hold their own against Hawkeye’s innuendos and actions and he certainly knew how to take no for an answer. There was respect between (most of) the doctors and nurses as they were all just trying to get through the chaos and come out of it still sane. And it wasn’t like they were unwilling participants - the show generally acknowledged them as people with the same “urges” as the men and there was no shame attached. It really was a very progressive show. Of course, it was reflective of the fact that the times they were a-changin’.
When your life is on the line day in and day out, sex is one thing foremost in your mind. The affirmation of life must balance the sword of Damocles.
@@elvisneedsboats3714 Hawkeye gave respect to the nurses for their surgical skills ONLY IF THEY REMEMBERED THEIR PLACE... to serve the doctors' needs & wants. He even objectified the female surgeon, Inga.
@@thecocktailian2091 What exactly was the purpose of this comment? Because it really just sounds like a pretentious way of saying that sexual harassment is reasonable and understandable as long as your life is in danger.
Mr. Baume, I didn't know who Frank Kameny was. Thank you for this video. Also, somehow I missed this episode of M.A.S.H. I miss watching it with my dad.
Margaret had a very homophobic line, if memory serves me right--sonething to the effect of, But he seems so nice ....
Ahh, but that's a comment on hotlips' commoditizing of men to stepping-stones... She wasn't w frank for the lulz!
That heartbreaking line seems to have been used to highlight how even the best people were trained to think of non-straight people as monsters. We see that this thought is incorrect and that he is an honest and nice guy, thematically showing that persecuting homosexuals is wrong and justified with falsehoods.
Oof
Yes, but in early episodes such as this one, Margaret was almost as villainous as Frank. In later years, her character evolved significantly. She would not have been nearly as homophobic by the end of the series.
To be fair- Frank did not specify that the soldier was gay, he said that he was a “pervert” to which Margaret responds “That nice boy?” It still wouldn’t surprise me if early season Margaret was homophobic. She was very close minded at the beginning of the show.
I remember watching this episode with my mom and honestly, this was so ahead of it's time! Especially with Frank as the a-hole that hes known to be throughout the series trying to get him discharged... it really brought home how horrid it was and framed the conversation as such. Frank reminds me of a few people I've known in my life, but my mom always keeps recordings of the episodes with Frank in them, just because we both love seeing people like him be the punching bag. Thanks for making a video about this episode!
"Some of my best friends are people"
I served in the Marines , just before don't ask, don't tell happened, and then happened (1988-1994)I had 3 gay roomates while in, (note: I'm hetero) over the years , one was an outstanding Marine, one was average (and bi, or at least confused) and one was an utter piece of crap... Just like pretty much any spectrum of people you will meet in your life. I just do not remotely understand the thought process that makes people think 'gay' is a moral issue. (heck I don't understand the argument that sexuality is a moral issue.-- but I'm a godless atheist, so I'm probably immoral in some people eyes -- and yes when I served there was even a stigma of being an atheist... I got punished in boot camp because I didn't want to go to church so had to do extra chores while others were at church)
@Green Mamba Games boot camp church didn't have ladies... I literally did not see a female except one for 3 months. (Church in bootcamp was everyone goes in formation, sits next to each other, listen to a guy talk for two hours and return to the squadron... there was nothing to it... I went a few times because it was expected, but eventually I couldn't take it. The sheer idiocy of believing in a god has seemed stupid to me when I was 11, it was definitely moronic when I was 18. And to see adults believing this crap was just too painful to watch)
The point is that you are punished for not conforming to norms, even in a society that is designed to protect independence.
@@cardsfanboy Interestingly, MASH covered the subject of individuality & Frank said, "individuality is fine as long as we are all doing the same thing". Bottom line- people are terrified of what they don't know or understand. They will immediately label it as 'evil' or 'wrong'. When their arguments don't hold up, they are even more terrified because they have no excuses for their own failures. It's the them vs. us argument.
Psychologically, I can explain this. No one *consciously believes that* electing a candidate (especially ones that take corporate $) = having a say on issues. But everyone consciously states that this does indeed happen, that if you don't vote, you don't have a say.
The conflict is happening in a deeper, more primitive part of our minds, the semi- or subconscious (SC). That isn\t where our logic lives. It's where our primitive fight or flight instincts live.
You can't do math while escaping a house on fire. You can't compose music while running from a bear. & you can't think logically when your f or f instincts are triggered.
What about the gay issue triggers one's f or f instincts? The same thing that makes people state the irrational *_"ONLY_* voting gives you a say in how you're governed." We have deep-rooted SC ideals about 'Government' & how we view it, including our relationship to it.
As we're seeing in the comments everywhere, we're not worried about anyone being gay (except maybe our own children) but everyone is _hella_ worried about pissing off authority figures. The SC can't work out this conflict. It isn't *designed* to.
You don't run away from bears except on Tuesdays. You don't escape a house on fire only on Fridays. You react to Symbolic Representations the way you react to Real Things All The Time. & unless you learn to recognize when you yourselves are doing it, _you'll_ 1) never figure your way out of much of anything, &
2) we'll continue to be run by corporate agendas interfering with our human rights because you can't break free from imagining 'Government' to be immune from being swayed by $.
Thank you so much Matt for another wonderful history lesson for our people! 💯💯
Thank you for this episode. I hope that my younger brothers and sisters learn what it was like to go through these times. ❤️
One of my favorite shows growing up. The theme song really made me fall in love with it. And can we talk about Corporal Maxwell.
Great Information! Thank you😊✌🏾
It is weird how the lyrics, which were intended to be the most stupid song ever*, have proven so resonant with people over the decades.
*This was the requirement of Robert Altman, who tried to write the lyrics himself, but, in the end, handed the job off to 14-year-old son, Michael. 😍
In the movie, the song is sung to a soldier who fears he might be gay and wants to kill himself. His friends throw a goodbye party for him that ends with a mock suicide. They actually drug him to sleep and he wakes up in bed with a beautiful female nurse. Cured!
It's disturbing on many levels.
@@kevinbailey8827 Yeah, the film is very... problematic.
Bless you, Matt! Every time I watch one of your programs I feel like I’m getting a college lecture in queer history. If only such a thing had been on offer when I was in college in 1982.
I first saw this episode around the same time I found ur videos and my first thought was, “Matt Baume should make a video about this” and I’m glad you finally did because I love ur videos.
When I was a teen (mid-1980s), there was a guy in the cadet camp I went to who was rumoured (or maybe even discovered) to be gay. He was sent home early for unnamed reasons, but consensus was that it was because of his sexual orientation. As a gay teen myself, this pushed me even deeper into the closet. Even if I wasn't ready to come out to anyone else back then, I regret that I never got up the nerve to tell the other cadet that I was like him before he was returned home.
M*A*S*H deserves a LOT more video essay retrospectives
This is why I love watching MASH. I grew up watching 2 episodes every weekend morning with my mom getting ready for school. I loved Alan Alda then and still do today. Hawkeye always saw the best in others and he saw how little someone's sexuality matter when it came to work, or simply their merit. Everyone is capable of being kind, courageous, and dedicated to others. Those are some of the best qualities anyone can have. I'm straight, but I have a lot of friends who have been bi, gay, trans or somewhere in between. I love them all for who they are and not because of who they sleep with.
Also what makes this episode great is that, unlike most television at the time, George isn’t the butt of homophobic jokes; Frank’s bigotry is. Gary Markowitz (the stepson of Larry Gelbart and writer of this episode) also said on Mash Matters (the podcast hosted by Jeff Maxwell aka Igor and another big Mash fan) that the original ending of the episode was that Frank had a sexual relationship with a friend of his when he was a teenager.
MASH tackled a lot of controversial subjects and not only still remained humorous, it also made you question the very things they were questioning, its considered to be one of the best shows for a reason
The Lavender Scare is one of the worst time for LGBTQ community. My grandfather work for the Pentagon during it height, and they wanted him to investigate people who are rumored to be homosexuals. Instead of outing them. He save a lot of people there jobs, by informing them about how they where being investigate and when he wrote his reports he lied and said there was no proof of them being apart of the LGBTQ community. He was also the first member of my family I told I was pansexual and he's reply was I don't care and you still are my grandchild.
What an intelligent, open-minded grandfather. All gay kids should be so lucky.
based
My dad LOVED watching MASH, he could see a few seconds of any episode and know which one it was. Probably why he’s still woke to this day.
I'm proud to say in the mid-80s we had a gay guy in our squadron in the USAF. We all knew, we all didn't care, and we all loved him as one of our brothers
Damn. “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” was still a thing in 2006 when I went in. I remember if a recruit didn’t want to complete boot camp and said they were gay, the Drill Instructor would say: “Okay, you’re gay huh? Let’s call your Dad and tell him that’s the reason why you’re getting kicked out.” It wasn’t until years later I realized how shitty of a thing that is to do to someone.
Thank you so much for this video! I grew up on M*A*S*H (odd for a 19 year old, I know) and I remember seeing this episode just as I was dealing with my own coming out. It's been a favourite of mine ever since and I can never turn down a good deep dive into this series or queer history.
MASH is on Hulu and I watched all 11 seasons and let me tell you, FANTASTIC SHOW.
MASH is such an intelligent and compassionate show. It definitely had an impact on me growing up. It makes my heart hurt to think about the abuse queer people had to endure for decades....
I remember that episode of Mash, it was very well written...
Thank you for the history lesson, as well!
Loving the t-shirt btw....
xoxo
Randolph
I've been watching M*A*S*H for the first time, since I was born in the late 90s and not American, I was surprised how much I love it. It's timeless and transcends cultural.
MASH will forever be both a product of its time and a great piece on modern society. It truly is a show that is timeless and perfect. Great episode Matt!
The reason I think I prefer Charles to Frank is that Charles wouldn't have given a fuck about the soldier being gay, he cared more about just doing his job well.
Watching MASH as a child gave me hope that in this crazy world people can still be kind to each other.
"Being gay is bad for unit cohesion!"
Well, maybe it's not the gays at fault for that. I mean, beating up your fellow soldier for something totally unrelated to their ability to serve is definitely gonna do some damage to the unit cohesion. Maybe it was the people who couldn't do the right thing and be team players who were causing the problems in the units.
I remember reading an article in the early 90s that said the military could only work if the homoeroticism was sublimated. If the sexual tension got fulfilled, that would ruin everything….somehow
Thanks for this video about my favourite show - I greatly appreciate the additional information that gives context to the episode and adds depth to the issues raised
This is an amazing piece, thank you! I love(d) M*A*S*H, and was among that record-holding audience watching the finale as it aired (and crying!)? I was a teenager and young adult in the late 70s-early 80s and vividly remember the misery and battles for us queer folk at the time (along with the requisite misogyny, racism, etc). M*A*S*H was one of the entertainment spaces my friends and I could turn to where we’d see some pushback against the toxicity right there in popular media.
I’d love to see you do a take (or two!) on Buffy, which also broke barriers in queer representation 😊
Mash is one of my all time favorite shows, and every time someone makes a video like this, I learn something about what made the show so great that went over my head when I was watching reruns on the Hallmark Channel with my dad in the early 2000s. Thank you for teaching something I will always be happy to know.
I am to new to your channel and I'm really enjoying it. I find the historical background and research in the videos incredibly interesting. I'll be watching that special on the lavender scare. Your personality is really wholesome and welcoming even when tackling important and often depressing topics. Thank you for your hard work!
There is a story over here about Winston Churchill and his view on gay people in the military. It used to be the case that gay soldiers would meet up in London’s parks at night, and… Anyway one morning Churchill was approached by a senior army officer.
“Prime Minister, there is a scandal brewing, two Guardsmen were caught in Hyde Park last night making love”
“Bloody cold night last night wasn’t it?”
“Apparently one of the coldest nights on record Prime Minister”
“Makes you proud to be British!”
My mother's first husband was someone that she'd grown up with. She married him so that he could stay in the Army. He wasn't drafted, he had enlisted because he wanted to serve his country. He and my mom not only stayed friends their entire lives, but he and my father also became friends, and he was made my godfather. Uncle Bill was one of the finest men I ever knew.
I needed to see something like this. It restores my faith that humanity isn't hopeless. There are good people. Eventually we'll win.
i keep rewatching this and the nanny one; your videos are a piece of art, lots of love!
EXPIRED BOTTOM??? HAHAHA!! What does that even mean?? Also, MASH was one of those few shows that as a gay kid, was "tolerant" and showed me that I wasn't alone. It also made me think of going to the army- almost.
how did you watch m*a*s*h and want to go to the army 😭 the whole show spits on the institution
Wonderful video and research. Rick Ely (pronounced Eeelie) who played George was a popular actor on many shows in the 70's and 80's. He passed away in 2019. @RickEly1970
I watched M*A*S*H while younger and it's in this moment I'm really starting to wonder how much of an influence it had on me. My mom was surprised at my interest but actively encouraged it as it's a good show.
Thanks man I appreciate your work. The comments here are so lovely and supportive and raw and real . Thanks from a Australian fan xxx
M*a*s*h & Black Adder remains my all time fav military themed dark comedy series. All time fav dark comedy being Little Britain, hands down. Keeping with Mash, it had so much to offer. Some episodes like this, was bittersweetly wholesome. But the background remains so, morbidly dark.