There’s always something tremendously lame about people coming up with cutesy little wordplay names for things they don’t like. That being said, I keep translating this in my head to “Father Jackass”, like a whimsical figure from folklore.
My mom is a huge LoTR fan, and was a big member of OneRingNet and the official fan club during the heyday of the movies. She was a very very active member of the forums and discussion groups. I just called and asked her "do Balrogs have wings" and her eyes literally glazed over. She said in a very defeated tone: "Balrogs can have wings if you want them to." Balrogs can have a little wing. As a treat.
I collectively got from that contrast of quotes that they have a dramatic presence, enveloping the area around them with intimidating shadows. They had wings in the sense of Dracula having a cape, they felt imposing, like there was no way to slip around them, no holes in their reach. Literal wings could as much be the delusions of their prey feeling cornered and trapped, as it can be an artistic shorthand for 'dude, its a goddanm BALROG'.
@@XatxiFly when i was talking to my mom about it, she mentioned that Tolkien did this all the time. He would introduce something with a metaphor, and then later refer to it as a physical property. Apparently this isnt the only thing that caused intense fandom drama due to Tolkiens inconsistent use of metaphorical and physical descriptions. I think I'm team chicken. Giant, useless wings. I floated the idea of breaking out an Ouija board and asking the man himself what he meant and then my mom got mad at me
@@baguettegott3409 Yeah, she's in the credits in Return of the King. Actually, to say shes a megafan would be an understatement bc she wrote the articles for the geology and geography of middle earth in the official lotr encyclopedia. Shes... Kind of a name in the community hahaha. Shes got a bookcase dedicated to tolkien/lotr. We took a vacation in New Zealand to visit a bunch of filming locations and Hobbiton. My childhood was very LoTR themed hahaha. Shes great and I love her.
Rotoscoping gets a bad rap because of the film overexposure method used in the Bakshi movies, but that's neither really rotoscoping (as described here), nor is that the only time it was used. Pretty much every animation uses it to some extent - it was used all the way back with Snow White and the like, and in The Jungle Book, even the clip of Baloo and Mowgli dancing he praised as good animation was rotoscoped. Like most techniques, it's just a tool, and how good it is depends on how you use it. When done well, you won't even notice. When done poorly, you blame it for the movie being bad, when in reality the movie is bad for many, many other structural reasons. The same goes for newer techniques like CGI - people love shitting on bad CGI in bad movies, but the bad CGI in great movies gets a pass, because it's never actually the CGI people are mad about.
@@hhiippiittyy "Real Emo" only consists of the dc Emotional Hardcore scene and the late 90's Screamo scene. What is known by "Midwest Emo" is nothing but Alternative Rock with questionable real emo influence. When people try to argue that bands like My Chemical Romance are not real emo, while saying that Sunny Day Real Estate is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake emo as My Chemical Romance (plus the pretentiousness). Real emo sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake emo is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music. Some examples of REAL EMO are Pg 99, Rites of Spring, Cap n Jazz (the only real emo band from the midwest scene) and Loma Prieta. Some examples of FAKE EMO are American Football, My Chemical Romance and Mineral EMO BELONGS TO HARDCORE NOT TO INDIE, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
@@danhendricks68 Right on. I don't know enough about the foundation of emo to discern the real from the fake, so my comment was invoking the popular emo cliche. Thanks for the cultural enlightenment. :)
It's been a running gag with my friends for ages even before this video came out, and the reason I love it is it's like. aside from being absurd, it's kind of getting at the core of why the "eagles" criticism is silly. a) the beings would likely not consent to do this deed b) it would obviously backfire even if they did c) the mere perception that it would even be plausible is perhaps entirely a product of movie choices obscuring otherwise obvious flaws with the plan d) OH MY GOD WHO CARES NERDS
@koboldcatgirl i think the Hobbit (book) already covered this when the eagles refused to fly the dwarven + bilbo party to their owj destination. They can fly and are good at normal battles, but vs a dragon or god damn Sauron they were just going to make themselves and each party big flying targets.
@@StonedHunter And their primary means of attack involves their feet, which would be busy carrying someone. Even if they could fight off things with just their beaks, the rapid clashes and direction changes could kill whomever they carry or cause them to be dropped to their deaths.
@L L A common question for the Lord of the Rings is "why didn't the eagles just take the Fellowship/fly the ring to Mordor?", which the series itself never answers, requiring a greater exploration/discussion of the lore to understand (and even then, the answer is only partially stated/reasonable, having to do with the relative power level of the eagles and their abilities meaning that one falling to the temptation of the ring would be tantamount to Gandalf or Galadriel succumbing) . As such, the question is an oft-repeated reference and joke in the fantasy community, typically highlighting what seem like obvious plot holes requiring complicated lore to justify or excuse/readers or players missing obvious worldbuilding that explains why the suggestion wouldn't work/overthinking narratives in general. (Since the obvious answer to the question is "because that would be a boring story") So yes, Dan is highlighting the complexity/absurdity of the "Balrog wing" question/argument by conflating it with the more widely known "eagle-ring" question.
@@AllWIllFall2Me "Which the series itself never answers" The books answers it quite clearly. The eagles are never in service of anyone, at best they help Gandalf, because he's a old friend, and even then they refuse to transport him further than to Rohan. And that's quite far from Mordor XD Plus it's just common sense, it's repeated throughout the book that might is useless and only discretion may work. Eagles are not sneaky, and Sauron would totally be able to kill eagles if they go to Mordor, not only do Nazguls have winged mounts, orcs have bows, and despite what you'll see in most depictions, they can be quite deadly with them 😁
Oh man, Bakshi. I have a lot of respect for the guy, he helped women and minorities get jobs as animators at a time when Disney and most other companies would only have them doing other, 'lesser' work, if that. I got some stories of him and he was really progressive for the time, but he couldn't direct a good commercial product to save his life. Way more of an artist than a businessman, which sucks because animation can be such an expensive business.
I wonder sometimes what the industry of animated films would look like if Bakshi had found commercial success in film. (Not saying that would be a good or worse alternative than now I just wonder.. lol)
You know, this is kind of wild to me, because the budget for Bakshi's LOTR adaptation was $4 million, and it pulled in at least $32.5 in the box office alone. The reception was mainly poor because it was incomplete, but if a sequel was announced, perhaps reception would have been better.
I feel sorry for Bakshi's struggles while working on Spider-Man, but "My coke dealer left me" has got to be the most sad/hilarious sentence in the history of the English language.
Back in the day, animation was no joke. You'd probably need uppers if you didn't have a crew the size of Disney, and even Disney likely whipped their animators like galley slaves.
@@nathanielpitts8667 tbf to this day animation is still no joke. though i suspect a lot of it is due to corporates habit of overworking yet underpaying their employees, sometimes to literal death.
Hi Dan, I don't know if you'll see this, but I felt the urge to send this out into the void anyway. When this video came out, I was pregnant with my son and experiencing the most horrific back pain I'd ever felt in my life. In the wee hours when the pain kept me up I watched this video a dozen times. I don't know why, but it was extremely soothing to me. Maybe it was hearing a Canadian accent so far from home, or reminiscing about my high school days coming up with silly Thranduil headcanons with my friends, or the hazy memories of the incomprehensible Bakshi LotR VHS at my aunt's place that I always shunned in favor of The Hobbit or Land Before Time. When that back pain turned out to be a rare pregnancy complication and I had to deliver my son six weeks early, I watched this video every night I was in the hospital to fall asleep. Two years later I still do, when I'm desperately trying to sneak in a snooze while my son naps. So thank you, for being such an oddly comforting voice during the most difficult time of my life.
Dan may never read this but I did thank you for sharing. I did cry a bit. This is a lovely story I'm glad you and your son are both in a good place now!
I think you should try to send this to him through a more traditional social media because he seems like the kind of guy who would really appreciate this
HAH! DEAD! But wait, now I've got loads of questions regarding the Red Bull in "The Last Unicorn"... I'm joking, of course. However, I am but a peasant who cherishes the film from early childhood, and I never read the book... Why didn't the unicorns just drown in the sea when they were driven there by the Red Bull? What did they DO there all that time [SPOILER ALERT] until the film's namesake (but mostly everyone else as she kind of stumbles around in a haze) defeated the Red Bull, allowing for them to return? Just be coral? I'm serious. Please someone tell me. The movie is beautiful and quirky, but it's full of just _the worst_ music. Plus it deviates from the original book anyway, which I can't really read anyway, cos... long story --short-- less long: very bad eyesight, not fixable, and prone to headaches. Cheers ♡ Edit 9: Don't just say "cos they're immortal". It's a two-part question. Cheers ♡♡
@@mookinbabysealfurmittens idk how they survive, but I think they're the "white horses" on the top of breaking waves. I don't remember the music as *bad* but apart from the main theme (banger) and Now That I'm a Woman (meh) I don't remember it at all so idk
@@gingganggoolie I re-watched it a few years ago, and I was having a lot of blackouts around then, but I do remember being shocked and dismayed at the cringey songs, at least in the first act. And 2nd... I also still remembered then the horror of the freak show, culminating in the Harpy scene. Terrified me as a kid, rightly so. Totally metal, but for a kid - I was 5 or 6 when I first saw it - it was intense & terrifying. And kind of disgusting, what with every wart and odd hair perfectly placed on the sagging, discoloured skin hanging off that Harpy's prominent bones. The intensity was seeded the moment the Harpy showed herself, a monstrous, miserable creature, and the attack scene was done very well with the style of quick cuts, silhouette, and flashes, and the particular use of colour. Anyway, sorry for rambling. Kind of a habit.
@@gingganggoolie On that same vein (animated scenes that hit hard), "The Rats of NIMH". A properly epic epic, but often so intense, like the flashback scene to the horrors of the lab. The scientist is holding a rat and injecting a giant syringe into its belly and it's squealing in pain and fright... That stuck with me forever.
There are several art styles in Bakshi’s LotR that make me think “wow, that looks good. I’d like to see a whole movie animated in that style”. And I guess the fact that I thought that several times about the same movie is indicative of the inconsistency problem. Some of those styles are really stunning.
I do find it amazing how Bakshi seamlessly weaves together beautiful art, ugly-on-purpose art, and ugly-on-accident art. True jack of all trades, that one.
honestly, I kinda like it for that. there's not enough experimentation in modern pop culture media. every frame of every animation or story in general is dependent on how much money it can conjure from the audience...not the spirit or heart behind it, nor the spontaneity of truly creative vision.
Here's one of my favorite quotes about LotRs “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ― John Rogers
Upon Googling "Atlas Shrugged", the most asked question is "What is the point of Atlas Shrugged?". Wow, one of those kinds of books. I would have absolutely hated to do a report on it in High School, and it would have affected my development as an adolescent. On another note, finding a copy of Isaac Asimov's Caves of Steel in my parent's basement changed my life forever.
@@shippo72 Oh yeah, it a book of crazy people, by crazy people, for crazy people. I mean the good guys are the 1% wealthiest people on the planet, all coming together to start a new religion worshiping money, then waging war on America, and are finally crowned themselves kings of the U.S.A. and making their money cult the state religion, killing thousands in the process.
@@shippo72 I imagine the inclusion of lots of frank sexual discussion and sex scenes should keep “Atlas Shrugged” from showing up even in High School curricula. But yes, it is a meandering mess with little if any plot, functioning perhaps more like Thomas Moore’s “Utopia” in presenting what she thinks “ought” to be (as from the “is/ought” dilemma), and often also strawmaning the political ideologies that she disagrees with, so that her heroes can strike them low… but like much of the action in Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings, is very clearly fake. (OMG, I’m dropping all sorts of artistic referenes, like I’m some sort of sophisticated snob…)
There is literally a smoke shop in my town called “Wizards” with the poster for the film in its window, and yeah it’s literally just owned by an old stoner whose young mind was blown by wizards, and it’s just a whole thing.
@@caradanellemcclintock8178 I'm convinced this is the primary reason Gandalf seems to literally never remember any of his spells until he's forced to 'dry out' in a cage or on top of a tower for a few days :P
When you talked about the Rankin Bass part and "people would assume the two animated films were the same people" was the exact moment I realized that the animated Hobbit and Lord of the Rings movies I watched as a kid were, in fact, two different companies and not the same people so uh... point to them I guess.
I also think it's interesting that while Rankin-Bass *did* do both "The Hobbit" and "The Return of the King", they're rather different in quality--their "Hobbit" is way better. Though I do think the Rankin-Bass treatment of the climactic moment of the whole trilogy, Gollum and Frodo at Mount Doom, is actually better than Peter Jackson's.
@@MattMcIrvin Yeah, I think that the idea of trying to turn ROTK into a family-friendly animated musical was just too flawed to ever produce something good. I grew up on those movies, and I have tons of nostalgia, but I fully recognize that it's uniquely wrong-headed. Except for Sam's temptation and the Watchers. It somehow nailed that section. (Which is funny since Jackson completely cut those parts out.)
@@abnercliff9624 See, that movie is so baked into my childhood I literally don't trust myself to say what songs are good. I just have zero objectivity. Although I am still very fond of "Bearer of the Ring" and "Win The Battle / Lose The War." Even if having a musical number for the Mouth Of Sauron scene is such a *weird* choice.
"The film was perverted, juvenile, rambling, gratuitously violent, unfocused, aggressively political, and a huge success" has got to be one of the most amusing descriptions I've ever heard.
There is nothing wrong with Bakshi's films (outside of maybe not aging that well in modern times). Sometimes you need to be all those things, to open people's eyes to the crimes around them. And yes, it was funny to hear :P. We only have to look to people like Vivziepop (Helluvaboss, HazbinHotel) to see that it still works to this day. (Hazbin's hotel original trailer has some great Bakshi like moments in it :) ).
Finally someone brought up how the majority of modern blockbusters are mostly animated despite not being treated as "animations" and how there's a weird arbitrary line between what counts and doesnt count as an animated film
@@rickyl3819 Well yes there's that case but also for example whenever people claim that Avengers is a live action movie despite like 80% of the movie being computer animation. If you know that meme about someone posting a green screen and saying "look how beautiful the MCU photography is" you'll know what I mean
The way I see it, is an animated film is a film in which the animation is the centrepiece. Youre supposed to know its animated and the visual style and storytelling are rooted in it looking overtly stylised. Live action with cgi elements is a film that is rooted in realism. You arent supposed to see the seams of where the animation begins and the live action ends. If a character looks fantastical, or even if the set is 90% computer generated and superimposed onto a green screen, the visual style is supposed to depict it as being as close to real life as possible. The Lion King 2019 is "live action" because it was designed to resemble real life photorealistically. You wouldnt know just from watching Avengers Assemble, the extent to which it is cgi. You figure, "yeah I guess the aliens and superpowers are cgi, but it seems like theyre shooting on location." But as we all know all of New York in those scenes is cgi as well as all the aliens.
@@angusmarch1066 MCU movies have a lot of surrealism in them, though. Talking animals, mutated beings, advanced alien planets, magic, magical dimentions, magical gloves, time-travel etc. Other better examples like Avatar, which is trying to remove itself from recognizable reality as much as possible (Pandora is so unlike Earth that it has floating islands), or stuff like Matrix, Speed Racer, Godzilla vs Kong. These movies are a lot less realistic than something like Ratatouille or Finding Nemo (which have talking animals but everything else is supposed to resemble reality) and Toy Story, which even attempts to recreate film effects like the split diopter
Reminds me a bunch of how Douglas Adams described the flightless Kakapo parrots. The gist being that as they found themselves in a land with no natural predators, they realized that instead of flying in, eating a tiny bit and flying away repeatedly. They could instead eat a whole bunch... "and then have a waddle." Looking around in nature ut is surprisingly telling that when creatures can give up on flying, they usually do. Because flying is exhausting work for most flyers. So the Balrog having wings more for intimidation and display rather than flying around like dragons makes evolutionary sense. Of course, on the other hand Balrogs being part of natural evolution with the limitations it brings in a world where fantastical magical beasts can be conjured by incantations might not make total sense either. But all in all, I haven't actually thought of how the wings can be basically only there to scare adversaries by spreading out wall to wall.
As an animation professor, I genuinely appreciate the fair and complete breakdown of Bakshi's work. We (professors) cite his work all of the time to discuss the history of animation technique and process. Thanks, Dan!
I really enjoyed this video, and I do appreciate Bakshi's contributions to animation. However, it stings that the only comment on Bakshi's long history of enabling and committing sexual harassment was just that he was "a pervert." Maybe Dan isn't aware, but ask any older folks in animation who worked during that time - especially women. I know several women who left animation from all the physical and verbal harassment they experienced while working on Bakshi's productions. Some were told "that's just the way things are" while getting a slap on the ass. Some were denied opportunities explicitly because they weren't "pretty enough". Sexism in animation could be found at any studio at this time, of course, but the sheer amount of physical harassment on these productions is disgusting. You had to chose between a career in animation, or abuse. We can still feel the effects of this 50 years later; it's only very recently that we're starting to see a shift in gender demographics and ousting of some of the nasty men who abuse their power (albeit women still tend to be underpaid).
"Then we must do without hope. There is always Vengeance!" God, that made me crack up so hard. After an entire lifetime of fantasy characters waffling on and on about how there is always hope, hearing a character just admit to things being hopeless and holding up vengeancce as a better motivation is soooooooooo satisfying to me.
And yet, that's straight from the book. Chapter VI of the fellowship, Aragorn asks what hope is there without Gandalf, and says to the rest of the fellowship that they have to do without hope, but they still can be avenged. And this feeling of hopelessness is recurring throughout the books. When Theoden rides to Gondor, it's not because he hope to save Minas Tirith, but for honour, death and glory. And before that, all hope is lost in Helm's deep too
@@krankarvolund7771 It's a very sobering moment, to be sure. That sometimes things seem hopeless, and we don't have it in us to proceed under hope we don't feel. As such, the only thing we can do is cling to whatever keeps us moving forward, whatever allows us to go on. If not hope, then revenge and spite. Because if you just stop in your tracks, there can never be a possibility for hope in the future.
That line reminds me of a verse from Laurie Anderson's song O Superman, particularly the middle bit. "'Cause when love is gone, There's always justice And when justice is gone, There's always force And when force is gone, There's always Mom Hi Mom!"
@@krankarvolund7771 He assuredly did. More than one of his personal friends died in combat. He was at the Somme, so he might as well have been posted to Hell for six or seven months. His battalion was almost completely wiped out, there's a pretty good chance he'd have been killed too if he hadn't caught some trench fever and been sent home.
As someone who's seen Fritz the Cat, your delivery of "I am very curious about what Ralph Balkshi thinks happens on the Simpsons" killed me instantly, and I too would like to know.
In limited defense of Ralph Bakshi, some of the violence - especially in the older days - wouldn't be too far removed from things that happened in Fritz the Cat (not exactly surprising either, considering Matt Groening was from the same school of underground artists) and is even referenced a few times. The racism is far more understated though, and we all know Americans can't handle female presenting nipples.
@@Groovebot3k I mean, I'm not coming out of this video meaning to be unfairly critical of Ralph Bakshi's work. But as someone who's seen the first twenty or so season of the Simpsons, I don't know if one can really compare it to something like Fritz the Cat despite Groening's experience with underground art and earlier work like Life in Hell. There was a little more than female presenting nips going on in some of those scenes, the one with Harriet especially.
To be fair, if Bakshi was talking in terms of violence he'd hit the nail on the head. Itchy and Scratchy is a definite nod to Fritz with similar levels of violence.
I actually feel inclined to defend him here. I think he was speaking metaphorically in terms of how The Simpsons began depicting challenging social satire on television and that's it. Which it did. The idea of ruffling feathers, so to speak. I think these are the context of what his words were meant to convey, he just didn't explain it very well. This seems to be a theme with Bakshi. A man who is smarter than his own mouth. His brain has complex statements he wishes to convey that don't come out sounding as stellar as they were before his mentality filters them awkwardly.
The first and only time I ever saw this movie was when I was 14 years old. I had a high fever, and was incapacitated on the couch while my older brother (a huge nerd) watched the movie. That was one of the most disorienting and frankly hellish movie watching experiences I have ever had.
I have a very similar situation for when I first saw this and to this day I've not rewatched it in full so the scattered memories I do have are absolutely wild and trippy.
Ralph Bakshi is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
@jontarr7444 ahhh man that sucks. Donnie Darko is one of my all time favorite Sci-Fi movies. If you ever decide to revisit it, check out the Director's Cut as it's a little easier to follow.
"It's a melancholic point about how the people of Middle Earth have grown apart, distrustful, isolated, to the point that even being asked to say 'friend' feels like a trick." Ouch. 2021 in a nutshell.
You’re probably the first TH-camr I’ve seen who, while not shitting on him by any means, doesn’t give Ralph Bakshi unilateral praise either. It’s interesting to see, and honestly makes me wants to see his movies more than the unilateral praise
I says if you have not seen the movies you should watch them.. I personally Liked the movie Wizards and now I have a few other movies I need to watch..
I think Bakshi isn't a complete hack but vastly overrated who got in over his head and never really made a good film. Fire and Ice comes closest to being watchable.
It's very interesting that in the Jackson films, he sometimes lifts entire segments shot for shot from the Bakshi film, most notably the hobbits hiding from the Black Riders under the tree. Way ahead of his time, and a very unique film and one that has a warm place in my heart. Excellent video, very well thought out and balanced.
Bakshi was presumably inspired for that scene by Arthur Rackham’s art for “Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens.” John Howe made a painting of the scene, and has said that he was inspired by Bakshi’s film (he must have been, because in the book the scene is a bit different). Then Peter Jackson hired John Howe to gain access to all of Howe’s Tolkien art. But it’s probably true that Jackson watched all of the animated Tolkien films, and took inspiration from Bakshi rather than from Howe.
I’m old enough to remember going to the movies to watch this movie. I hadn’t read LOTR or knew much about it, the movie was awesome and after it became obvious there wasn’t going to be a follow up it drove me to read the book, which due to the movie , gave me a better understanding of the book. Years later I watched the Peter Jackson version and could definitely see an influence. Which do I prefer? Let’s just say I never had the urge to watch the next two movies in Jackson’s trilogy
When I saw Fellowship in theaters, I got the nagging sense during that scene that I'd seen it before, like it was some kind of deja-vu I didn't understand. The moment I saw that clip again in this essay, I realized why.
@@davidmitchell7181 You disliked Jackson's Fellowship enough to skip the next two movies of the trilogy? I mean, to each their own but I admit that's baffling to me.
"This LotR nonsense would be far too expensive to film - lets animate it". "This LotR animation is getting pricey, can we not film it and paint over the top?"
I wonder if Bakshi had gotten the same kind of money and support as, say, Shane Dawson, what would he have been able to do? Well, besides all the coke :)
@@vintheguy I'm just thinking about how limited Bakshi was by low budgets (in some of his movies anyway). Imagine what he could have done if he'd had enough money.
I stumbled on it on TH-cam one day, and I am still pissed that all the comments were like "oh my god imagine if the Peter Jackson movies had been like this, hahaha CRINGE" Screw that. That song is a banger, and one of the few things that could've improved Jackson's trilogy would have been singing orcs.
The best part about that musical number is the complete ignorance (or just indifference) of the nature of Tolkien’s Orcs. One fault that critics bring up about them is that they are so inhuman as to be one dimensional. They are just plain and simply evil (as they were created to be), but they are also sentient beings, who would in reality be more complicated than simple villains. The fact that the Rankin Bass Orcs are just like you and me, displaying contempt and complacency in the service of a catchy tune (“We don’t wanna go to war today..”) is nothing like the scary, purposely driven Orcs of the book.
The Balrog wings question reminds me why I love fandom. I'm being serious. Like, the Balrog isn't even real and look at how much time and energy so many people over so many decades have devoted to headcanons of a nonexistent monster. It's great.
For me, the weirdest thing about the rotoscoping was that in general the orcs look insubstantial, whereas the Balrog is this lumpy, solid (not to mention appallingly drawn) thing when they should be the other way around.
@@princess_intell That's why I was getting such weird vibes from the flying! Yes, you can just feel the suspension of the actor in the way the Balrog moves. It's so weird to watch.
It sounds pretty neat, until you see how flatly it's executed. It's not paced very well, doesn't have any real build-up and doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion to the moment - because it doesn't really have a moment to it. You can see what he was going for, but it just kinda goes by so fast that you don't have time to feel any impact from it.
The power of Jackson's trilogy is such that just watching those fleeting seconds of Sam with Frodo in his arms, exhausted and worn on the lip of doom, threatens to bring tears to my eyes. What a trilogy. What a moment. What a book.
When my son saw "Wizards" at 5 (with his big Bro) he decided he wanted to be an animator. Many years later he ended up in Las Cruces, NM going to school, and was asked to teach before he graduated. At the school he met Ralph Bakshi's son who taught there and ended up working for Ralph. Believe in you dreams. :)
Yeah, but it also elides the fact that in SF2, the character that's known as "Balrog" was originally "M. Bison" in the original Japanese version, and the M. Bison in the U.S. version is originally "Vega", who goes by "Balrog" in Japan.
@@entroponetics um actually, M Bison was originally the boxer however fearful that Mike Tyson might catch on Capcom changed, Balrog (the Spanish ninja bullfighter) to Vega, Vega (the end game boss) to M Bison, and M Bison to Balrog.
@@NAFEDUDE Meaningfully and succinctly explaining the calculus behind the name changes Boxer, Claw, and Dictator undergo between languages is so confusing that people are arguing points they agree upon at each other. That's just how it be.
Honestly I could listen to Dan narrating a snail race for five hours, but this is a fascinating topic in itself. Some of the visuals in Bakshi movies are unlike anything I've ever seen in my DIsney-filled life. And as always, stellar analysis
I was at the Ottawa International Animation Festival the year that Bakshi was a guest, and while my classmates and I were at a pub, one loudly said 'Did anybody else hate Wizards?', as we had watched it in one of our classes. Turns out, Bakshi was was drinking at the same pub and gave her a killer stink eye. I haven't heard from her since graduation, so I have a suspicion that he had her assassinated.
Bakshi's decision to rely on rotoscoping for stuff that animation would have been uniquely able to depict in the 70s - the balrog, the wraiths, the orcs, Helm's deep - is extraordinarily bizarre. You're working in the one medium where you could convincingly draw and ink a tall demon of shadow and flame, and instead you opt to shove a guy in a lion mask, slippers, and giant, flopping moth wings?
All of the live-action was intended to be shot just for reference, to be animated by hand later. Trouble was in those days, unless you accept Pokemon-level of choppy, then character animation can get very rime-consuming - and time = $. They ran out of both, and were not coordinated between depts to run a tight-enough ship to finish by deadline what was originally envisioned.
watching this for like the 5th time, here's all the moments where someone walks into the background of the shot of dan sitting on a log 3:09-4:08 1 person 4:31-5:37 a few moving pixels in the far background that seem to be a person (interrupted by images thrown up on the right of the screen but if it's a person it's all the same person) 8:59-9:27 1 person (blue shirt) 12:54-12:56 1 person on a bike, seems to be someone else following them behind the bushes but the video cuts away before that person can emerge 14:58-15:08 a few moving pixels in the far background that seem to be a person on a bike 42:06-42:30 2 people, one of them points directly at dan at the end of the shot, presumably having noticed the camera. This is the one that caused me to make this comment
I need to mention this because Dan never indicates he's aware: The ending of the Bakshi LOTR was CHANGED for the DVD versions. Originally, the narration (which occured at that freeze-frame before the credits) said "so ends the first part of the war of the one ring," making it more clear a sequel was intended. I have no idea why this change was made, but old VHS editions have the original narration.
I mean it's pretty clear why. At that point, it would have been obvious there was no sequel coming, so they would have wanted to avoid confusing people and getting angry letters asking where part 2 is.
@@manjackson2772 I'd like to think the average member of the general public is actually a lot smarter than movie studios give them credit for. So many bizarre studio decisions can be explained by the fact that studio executives genuinely think movie going audiences are a bunch of idiots and will reject anything too intellectually challenging.
now i have a distinct memory of watching this on tv. was really confused when i was a kid, thinking "i wonder when i'll get to see the rest of it", asking my parents, getting shrugs as answers
Interestingly, despite the fact that I’m only 21 I grew up with the Bakshi version first, most likely because my dad thought the Peter Jackson version might be kinda inappropriate for a kid. In hindsight this is hilarious considering Bakshi’s oeuvre
I also grew up with Bakshi's version because my dad was (still is) a huge fan of the books and the Middle Earth world. Jackson's version didn't exist at the time, I think it was around 1998 when I saw the animated movie.
Same here, I’m 23 and was introduced into Jackson’s LOTR during 2nd grade, but wanted to watch them earlier than that. I found the Bakshi version in an accordion VHS case at a video store, and was allowed to watch that
"A Coked-Out Pervert From Brooklyn: The Ralph Bakshi Story" would be quite the catchy title for a biography. I would also accept "Bakshi-Crazy: The Unbelievable True Story of American's Most Controversial Cartoonist"
@@ava_marie_v He'd probably go for that lol, he's on Facebook and allegedly does respond to people. Last I heard from a student his son still works at New Mexico State University who did also answer emails. I didn't save his email tho as I'm not an animation student and had no questions 😭
I find myself coming back to this documentary now that a lot of current animators have had their work stolen through the HBO/Discovery merger. So much talent in a non-union hellscape of an industry.
I'm aware Final Space has been written off for tax purposes and will be permanently removed from streaming services but what other examples of this kind of conduct are there? That sounds horrific.
Another Fun fact: The character J. Guile from the Street Fighter series is called Centerfold in the international version of the games he appears in, so they can avoid copyright.
Not me commenting something about sakuga in regards to the animation style, which I first learned about from your video, in response to a comment 2 above this one, just to scroll down and see this 😂😂😂
I don’t think the style is that bad, it’s basically the Japanese animation style that’s based more on strong poses (key frames) instead of the Disney/western animation based on fluidity. Even if you look at Hayao Miyazaki’s films there’s plenty of times where characters are standing mostly still with their mouth oscillating between three or four shapes. You can see that sort of restraint in the Rankin-Bass Tolkien films, just with more westernized designs on top (although Smaug is very eastern looking for a dragon)
The extreme force of the Jackson movies and their soundtrack are underlined by the fact that both super short clips you showed from Return Of The King immediately made me tear up.
Me, a few minutes ago: “Hey, I recognize the tune in the background during the Balrog segment, what song is that aga- oh goddammit it’s Band on the Run by Wings. Fuck you Dan.”
WINGS! THAT'S the connection! I was like "Why 'Band on the Run'?" when watching, but like my brain goes "It's a Paul song" first, forgetting the name of his post-Beatle band until it comes up elsewhere.
I never thought about modern green screen-heavy filmmaking as being indebted to the early days of animation-merged rotoscoping, but that is such a perfect comparison. I suppose there’s a little Cool World in everything these days!
"And anyway, if Balrog have wings, why couldn't they just FLY the ring into Mordor?" I know you weren't aware of this, but you wrote that joke just for me. I love it.
Its such a strange coincidence that both major adaptations of TLOTR were directed by men whose previous films were notoriously gory and explicit cult films.
Guess I just need to just be humbled and happy that it took me this long to find someone else who caught that. Made me laugh even harder for how it took me so long to catch what it was. Tips hat
YET fails to mention the fact that the character WE know as Street Fighter's Balrog's- original name(and name in Japan) was/is M.Bison (a take on Mike Tyson) which was changed and switched. USA - Balrog , Vega, M.Bison JAPAN - M.Bison, Balrog, Vega Explaining all 'Balrog's' moves being Buffalo and Bison themed, 'Vega's' moves being all demon themed and 'M.Bison's' moves being about 1970's Chevys. THERES EVEN DEBATES ANSD DISCUSSION WITHOUT TOLKIEN INVOLVED.
This feels almost exactly like the difference between the 1984 and 2021 Dune movies. The 2021 movie is widely considered an amazing adaptation of the source material, but there are still some very devoted fans of the 1984 version. Additionally, the 1984 movie features more exact dialog from the book, and the details are more similar, but it an many ways simplifies or downright contradicts the story's deeper ideas
I found the 2021 movie to be very slick, but also kind of minimal and bland. The 1984 one is batshit, and arguably a worse movie, but Lynch injects it with a really unique energy that makes it worth watching. There is no film like 1984's Dune (for good or ill). 2021 Dune was just going through the motions for me.
I think we can all agree the "best" Dune film was the unproduced Jodorowsky film, meant to be filmed in the 70s. Say what you want about the concept art, it would have been _aesthetic as hell._ The world is poorer for it not being realized.
Sometime in the year 1997 a weary adult put a VHS bootleg of this movie on to keep me quiet, and now I finally understand wtf I saw all those years ago. Because it was a bootleg, it cut out before the ending. There is just a wee bit of irony in wanting to see the rest of the film only to discover the full version also just..ends. Another mystery solved! Thanks Dan
I always respect the hell out of art that’s willing to risk being bad in order to try something new. It’s experimental in the purest sense of the word, trying things to see if they work and learning from the results.
Honestly, probably the best adaptation of The Lord of the Rings is the BBC radio drama. It keeps narration to a minimum and relies on dialogue to keep the story moving, has strong acting including some reprisals from Bakshi's film and the perfect casting for Sam, and remains truer to the text including keeping in the songs both film adaptations drop. It's possibly the first thing I suggest people try when mentioning the strengths of audio dramas I highly recommend it to anybody who hasn't listened to it.
He's right. It's really good and underrated! Also Ian Holm is great as Frodo and Micheal Hordern's Gandalf sounds very similar to Ian McKellen!(Or I suppose McKellen sounds similar to Hordern)
Could not agree more, the BBC adaptation is a true work of art. Personally, I think Jackson's movies are superb but I also have a soft spot for Bakshi's film and think it gets way too much criticism.
I'm only a minute in, but this Dan fella' loves being near a large body of water. Total waterhead, this bloke. Not in the hydrocephalic sense, mind you.
it's a whole vibe and I love it because I feel the same way about water. I've lived on the waterfront my whole life, I adore cities with rivers, it just feels like it does something good to the soul
Considering Bakshi’s tendency towards episodic work, it seems like what he would have done very well is - ironically enough - a Hobbit movie. The Hobbit is much more of a “one chapter a night” style of episodic plot than LOTR, which is one of the main reasons Jackson’s style was such a bad fit.
@@lainiwakura1776 they are talking about how the original book is episodic in nature, like it’s not a traditional story structure. Every chapter is a new story. The movies failed because they tried to make it a traditional story structure and stretched it over three movies.
It's really interesting hearing about the "abridgement" of Bakshi's film and its reliance on viewer foreknowledge, because I feel like that's something that I don't experience a lot in theatrical adaptations but is super common in fanfiction as a medium of expression. It's the reason that fanfictions with serial numbers filed off don't work well as standalones- no matter how beautiful the fanfiction was, it almost invariably has a kind of unconscious blindness to exposition that the intended reader will be untroubled by. I'd definitely love to see the Bakshi film. It seems incredibly interesting, despite how difficult it seems to be to access.
I think the only time that happened in a theatrical adaptation was Harry Potter, or at least the later ones. As the books got longer and longer, they HAD to cut things to make the length of a standard theatrical film's length. Since the audience for the books was so large, it was like the filmmakers knew they could drop a few elements or explanations since, well, the people watching the films more than likely had already read and memorized the books.
Bakshi’s films are art school films (saying this as an animation student). They’re full of experimentation and raw creativity. They both exemplify the creativity of a freshman project and the quality of a film you can study. If you’re wondering I both admire and am confounded by his work
Bakshi s certainly a definite pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
@@GenesisTheKitty The RACIAL CHARICATURES in some of Bakshis' cartoons from the 70s would be highly at odds with woke types of this day and age - THTA's what I was referring to.
One of my favourite moments in the Bakshi adaptation is when Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are chasing the orcs and the scenes go on for like 10 minutes of dudes running and at one point Aragorn eats shit and falls in slow motion it's fucking hilarious.
@@mbenoni7397 bit of a late reply but yeah I get that it's to imply Aragorn is exhausted after his long chase. But I can't help but believe that it was put in because Bakshi himself either thought it was funny as well, or they weren't able to find an alternative/better take qnd decided to use it
50:35 your words about a companion to the text perfectly illustrate why I so love the David Lynch version of Dune, and I understand why it doesn't appeal to others. I saw it years before I read the book, and while the visuals stuck with me, the plot had evaporated from my memory. This made it a great visual reference for all the things in the book, helping me to keep it all straight, and allowing me to focus more on the plot on my first read. Which, being Dune, helped immensely.
So what you're saying is that the same guy who made the first adaptation of LOTR also had a hand in creating furries. Truly a reflection of the duality of man.
There is a totally weird adaptation of the hobbit that takes the trophies for "only screen adaptation to come out in Tolkien's lifetime" and "The reason he was against adaptations of his work", it is a sight to behold. th-cam.com/video/UBnVL1Y2src/w-d-xo.html
Fredrik Knudsen has a really interesting video about the history of furries and their roots in mid-ish 1900s cartoons and comics. Check it out if you got time th-cam.com/video/8aF2GxWi7Ag/w-d-xo.html
@@ezraclark7904 wasn't that one created purely as a way to hold on to the film rights? Which is why it's so cheaply made with "animation" consisting of moving around still drawings with their hand. And why it's so short. It's like those unreleased Captain America and Fanatastic 4 movies, created on the cheap purely to hold on to the movie rights (though the Fantastic 4 one is actually the best fantastic 4 movie ever made, funnily enough. I assume the new Marvel one will be pretty great though, I used to hate the marvel films till I sat down and watched all of them in a row, and I realised they're actually great, and keep getting better) This Hobbit film from 1967 is just a mess though. Not even a good mess. He made it to hold on to the rights, and then sold the rights back to Tolkien anyway. I guess he cared only about the money, it wasn't an artistic dream of his or anything. Is the Rankin Bass hobbit movie any good? I've never seen that one. And I've only seen the first one of the Peter Jackson hobbit trilogy, cos I hated the first one and couldn't be bothered to watch the other 2. I should probably do that some day
Ralph Bakshi, regardless of how much he offends ones tender delicate contemporary p.c. wokist sensibilities, is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
@@FlorSilvestre12 Yeah well, just the same, I do believe that string to be quite apt. The man's earlier films (particularly), like Heavy traffic and Coonskin, are the sort of thing that make modern woke types $h!t blood. They've offended more conservative sensibilities too, but for different reasons (mainly their raunchiness and vulgarity).
My dude, you've copy/pasted this exact same reply on at least a dozen threads here. Glad the guy's work resonates with you. No one here is equally invested in Jackson's work, but you can pick this fight you're looking for literally anywhere else on the internet.
Looking back, as you touch on, Bakshi was probably among the worst choices to do an animated LoTR as it requires a focus and plot directed discipline which was never Bakshi's strong point. On the other hand, for the 70s, he was pretty much the only choice to do it as he was the only person then seeing the ability of animation to tell adult stories.
So, in a way, Bakshi was to animated _LoTR_ was Zach Snyder was to _Legend of the Guardians: the Owls of Ga'Hoole:_ a poor choice given the fundamental issues with the way they tell a story, but at the same time, probably the only one willing to make the movie and get the movie finished with the animated film industry in North America being what it is. Rather fittingly, both films would adapt too many books at once, struggle heavily with their plot, but have some brilliantly animated scenes (and I normally dislike the visuals in Snyder's films, so that's saying a lot).
naaaah i disagree. He had a vision on how to articulate the books to a cinematic audienace through the opening of the movie and other parts so that the audience can get whats happening. I just feel he doesnt get enough credit because its very obvisous that his movie inspired Jacksons movie and i have no idea why Jackson doesnt give him more. Possibly due to studio preasure, who knows
He really needed at least one other person working alongside him that was better at the focus and overall story telling so he could focus more on the personal moments he's clearly better at.
@@DafyddBrooks You make a great point. My earliest recollection of Bakshi's LOTR was an edited for television version on Local NYC Channel 5 in the early 1980s. I disliked it as the animation style was so jarring and abstract compared to what I was used to (I think I was 8 or 9). I wasn't ready yet for it. But by college I could see plain as day the influence this animated film had on later science fantasy live film and animation. Give this man his flowers now!
That ending narration was tacked on for the DVD re-release in the 90s. The original theatrical release had a much simpler narration: "Here ends part one of the War of the Ring".
@@salsathemonkey22 I mean, he was the leader of the largest economy, largest military power, and largest political power in the world during an incredibly politically momentous time for 4 whole years, including a nuclear crisis, WW3 scare, and a once-in-a-century-pandemic; given his effect on the world, I'd be shocked if people *weren't* still talking about him, only 6 months after...
my uncle was offered a job to work on the production for lord of the rings, but he turned it down because New Zealand was "too hot and too far away and i'm too old to stay there for three years" lol. i remember seeing the posters of frodo reading under a tree in my school library for a long time before the movie actually came out
@@qhu3878 I almost applied at the time. I remember the notices. I was 19. Gutted I didn't but was preoccupied with other things and couldn't justify the time.
@@d.r.bartlette3431 This is really how fast and educated "parenting" became under our pop culture regime between 65 and 85, say. I still cant believe the records our folks bought us and we listened to at 8yrs old in 1976. Kiss "Destroyer" on Seal&Krofts Kiddie TV? Alice Cooper's "Love It To Death"!? I watched the Exorcist with my mother at 8yrs old! This pop culture tsunami that started with fm rock music in and then cable tv in the mid 70s wud create on one hand the evangelical xtian reagan backlash and on the other a sophisticated secular appreciation for parenting . As wealth grows, and by wealth I mean health and educational attainment, childhood gets longer. I cant imagine listening to "Meet Michelle in the Ladies Room/4 my money, u cant be too soon" by Kiss with my 8yr old or watching the Exorcist with my 9yr old daughter, but the pop tsunami came up so quick it drowned our politics in pop.
I know the famous "Family Picture" phrase isn't something Bakshi actually said, but he did say in the Wizards commentary, "this is my first kids film, my family film." God knows what he thinks a film meant for toddlers looks like.
@@LadyTylerBioRodriguez "No blood? No titties? What is this, a film for babies!?" "Mr. Bakshi, it's a period drama..." "It's lame, that's what it fuckin' is!"
My favorite part of this movie is a scene where Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are running, and Aragorn trips over his scabbard and falls on his face, in glorious slow-motion. Not only did they film the actor doing this, they consciously used that take, decided to play it back in slow-motion, and painstakingly rotoscoped every frame. And if you don't know it's coming, it goes by so quick that you don't even realize it's happened. It's fantastic.
I basically agree with all the takes in this video - while also acknowledging that the inconsistency was what made me LOVE it as a child. It mirrored my imagination; constantly patchwork, never in the same style, unendingly weird, frequently featuring splashes of horror, oftentimes drenched in mountainous nature, awkward at times and beautiful at others. I watch it every Fall with my new favourite animated piece, Over the Garden Wall. I love seeing how my understanding and viewing of stories and visuals changed.
My Dad, being a huge nerd in school, rented this when I was about 8, and I distinctly remember the Weathertop scene. I’d never come across rotoscoping before, and the fluid, realistic design and movement of the Nazgul against the rather cheesy and cartoonish animation of the Hobbits kept me up at night for at least a week, and my Dad was immediately banned from choosing what film we rented for at least a decade.
Bakshi's movie was actually my first encounter with "The Lord of the Rings"--I saw it with my mom on original release--and, yeah, it's wildly uneven, laughable in spots and just peters out at the end. I do think that just as Rankin-Bass accidentally capitalized on Bakshi's story remaining unfinished, the Bakshi movie was itself capitalizing on the existence of the Rankin-Bass TV "Hobbit", which was widely enjoyed. I definitely saw it as a sequel to that. But... Bakshi's version of Aragorn's first appearance at the Prancing Pony is forever how I'm going to imagine that scene. I think you're right that he actually does best with some of the quieter character moments in the story.
Despite the inconsistency, something about the slow, sickly green ring wraiths slowly advancing towards a more traditionally animated Frodo really works for me
The film is a mixed-media extravaganza...those background paintings always get me! Once one accepts that 25% of the film is whack-a-doodled on cocaine, then the rest of it can be appreciated for the gem that it was :)
I think the mixed media formats could have reeeeally helped the film express more about the nature and intensity of the conflict(s) throughout the movie, had they been done right. Just like the wraiths against Frodo--that scene shows powerful, disjointed, stylistically different images that bother you. Something doesn't belong--it's clearly the Ringwraiths, the undead, evil, pursuing sub-villians. Or is it Frodo who's unnatural, with his illustration accentuating him as the hero when surrounded by Wraiths? The differences in the animation styles hammer in the unnaturalness the Wraiths, and cements just how vastly different they and Frodo are. I LOVE that crap.
@@mariecarie1 I wholeheartedly agree with your reading, I'm a big fan of using the medium itself to convey when something's just "off", so the idea of subtly showing that the ringwraiths are an unnatural part of the real world just as Frodo is an unnatural part of theirs, is really appealing to me. Though I can't quite stop myself from thinking about the Witchking's promise to make Frodo one of them and going "Oh no! He's going to un-cartoon him!" xD
This could almost be considered a blueprint example for aspiring TH-camrs of what a REALLY fucking good video expose can and should look, flow and play out like!! Hats off to you for your exceptional efforts here!
@@argentpuck I loved Bad Taste and Heavenly Creatures, and I think the wide gulf between those movies is what made me really interested in what he would do Lord of the Rings.
My favorite position on the do-Balrogs-have-wings question is that balrogs are how Melkor discovered he couldn't create flying creatures. I don't know if that's a sensible reason for them to have vestigial wings, but I like it.
@@juliamavroidi8601 I read someone responding to an argument from someone else, so it's something like a third-hand argument against balrogs having wings. It was probably more coherent firsthand.
@@juliamavroidi8601 The first dragons Morgoth made were without wings. I.E Glaurung the first dragon was actually killed by being stabbed in the belly. No flying there. Smaug and other Flying dragons didn't come until later.
@@siliril True, though after that, Morgoth created Ancalagon the Black, the greatest dragon of Middle Earth, and Ancalagon did have wings, which he used to fight Earendil and his flying ship.
The lesson of the video: If you want to adapt Lord of the Rings, you have to make perverted movies in a medium usually associated with children's entertainment first.
Wait does this apply to Peter Jackson too? Isn't his former genre the kind of slapstick horror that Sam Raimi popularized? I think I need to see Reanimator now.
I really adore how unnatural the ringwraiths and orcs look when they're using the painted-over rotoscoping look. They were really onto something with that idea, even if it didn't fully work out.
i'd recommend checking out hylics, an indie rpg made with a similar process, albeit with claymation than live action, which takes a lot from surrealism, dada, and other such things. the unnerving out of place quality of the especially harsh scenes seem like presaging for the otherworldly aesthetic of hylics
@@westmoorefilms305 You spelled "baste" incorrectly. Anyway, I'm still not getting your message. "Baste Opinion?" Are you suggesting that we soak our opinions with juice as we cook them?
Yeah, me too. It looks so creepy and atmospheric; the painting-over method makes it feel weirdly unmoored from time, like a lost film from the 1910s that somehow has a soundtrack.
Never seen you before, but I do watch a lot of video essays. I’m glad you found yourself on my recommended page, this was interesting. I very distinctly remember TH-cam’s original layout, and sometimes I wish- even just for one day- they’d go back to it just to highlight how much it’s changed. Like, remember when the front page was just a search bar? Or when people had youtube-style Halloween costumes? Wild
I’m remembering now that Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings was the first time I consciously noticed rotoscoping. It was the film that made me fall in love with the technique, I find it so visually interesting. But also the way it’s used in LotR is so obvious, my appreciation for it feels like an inverse on why people hate autotune. I like sincere rotoscoping, like what was used in Snow White, but I also like stylistic rotoscoping, I like it as a medium in and of itself. I owe all of that nonsense to the mess that is Bakshi’s film lol.
For me it was catching moments from some film about dreams on late-night TV; the dream scenes were all rotoscoped but each one in its own style with a different animator kinda like those “re-animation” projects. But yeah I have always been in love with the look. Never had the patience to do it on my own videos though; but haven’t tried as an adult tbf.
If there was one thing Bakshi got spectacularly wrong...it was Sam Gamgee. This character, so beautifully realized by Sean Astin in the Peter Jackson movies, this simple, honest man who rose to great heroism purely out of loyalty and love and quiet strength, this wonderful character whose defining moment ("...but I can carry you!") made him the real hero of LOTR...was reduced to goofy, Saturday-morning-cartoon comic relief in Bakshi's hands.
Well one could argue that there was intended to be character development for Sam in the never-made second part of Bakshi's adaptation. Plus you can start to see hints of growth in how he behaves and acts in what we did get towards the end of the film. I think it's a bit disingenuous to bring up the scene you mentioned to compare the two films when Bakshi's version never got a chance to even get to that part in the story.
It is very funny that I've received multiple "Pater Jackass" comments from people insisting that they're above petty fandom sniping.
I saw one guy comment it literally three times, and once below my completely unrelated comment. Guess that'd make me a Dan Assson fan 😔
I barely have the energy to like things, I don't know where people get the energy to despise things.
There’s always something tremendously lame about people coming up with cutesy little wordplay names for things they don’t like. That being said, I keep translating this in my head to “Father Jackass”, like a whimsical figure from folklore.
Can't mess with this fandom, they're Bakshit crazy amirite
How dare they talk that way about Hat Dan!
My mom is a huge LoTR fan, and was a big member of OneRingNet and the official fan club during the heyday of the movies. She was a very very active member of the forums and discussion groups. I just called and asked her "do Balrogs have wings" and her eyes literally glazed over. She said in a very defeated tone: "Balrogs can have wings if you want them to."
Balrogs can have a little wing. As a treat.
hahahaha what a legend 😂
what must it be like to witness a decades-long online fandom debate
I collectively got from that contrast of quotes that they have a dramatic presence, enveloping the area around them with intimidating shadows. They had wings in the sense of Dracula having a cape, they felt imposing, like there was no way to slip around them, no holes in their reach. Literal wings could as much be the delusions of their prey feeling cornered and trapped, as it can be an artistic shorthand for 'dude, its a goddanm BALROG'.
@@XatxiFly when i was talking to my mom about it, she mentioned that Tolkien did this all the time. He would introduce something with a metaphor, and then later refer to it as a physical property. Apparently this isnt the only thing that caused intense fandom drama due to Tolkiens inconsistent use of metaphorical and physical descriptions. I think I'm team chicken. Giant, useless wings.
I floated the idea of breaking out an Ouija board and asking the man himself what he meant and then my mom got mad at me
Is she in the credits of the movies then? That must be kinda cool :D
@@baguettegott3409 Yeah, she's in the credits in Return of the King. Actually, to say shes a megafan would be an understatement bc she wrote the articles for the geology and geography of middle earth in the official lotr encyclopedia. Shes... Kind of a name in the community hahaha. Shes got a bookcase dedicated to tolkien/lotr. We took a vacation in New Zealand to visit a bunch of filming locations and Hobbiton. My childhood was very LoTR themed hahaha. Shes great and I love her.
"Why does the rotoscoping look so bad?"
"Because it was real"
Love how layered this joke is
Rotoscoping gets a bad rap because of the film overexposure method used in the Bakshi movies, but that's neither really rotoscoping (as described here), nor is that the only time it was used. Pretty much every animation uses it to some extent - it was used all the way back with Snow White and the like, and in The Jungle Book, even the clip of Baloo and Mowgli dancing he praised as good animation was rotoscoped.
Like most techniques, it's just a tool, and how good it is depends on how you use it. When done well, you won't even notice. When done poorly, you blame it for the movie being bad, when in reality the movie is bad for many, many other structural reasons. The same goes for newer techniques like CGI - people love shitting on bad CGI in bad movies, but the bad CGI in great movies gets a pass, because it's never actually the CGI people are mad about.
Take my like and leave.
lol
The green nazguls are badass and nobody can tell me otherwise. Bashki rotoscoping is wildly unappreciated
Man, that line, "There's no hope!" "Then we must do without hope!" is freaking metal.
If I may,
I would say it is emo until you add "There is always vengeance!"
@@hhiippiittyy "Real Emo" only consists of the dc Emotional Hardcore scene and the late 90's Screamo scene. What is known by "Midwest Emo" is nothing but Alternative Rock with questionable real emo influence. When people try to argue that bands like My Chemical Romance are not real emo, while saying that Sunny Day Real Estate is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake emo as My Chemical Romance (plus the pretentiousness). Real emo sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake emo is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music. Some examples of REAL EMO are Pg 99, Rites of Spring, Cap n Jazz (the only real emo band from the midwest scene) and Loma Prieta. Some examples of FAKE EMO are American Football, My Chemical Romance and Mineral EMO BELONGS TO HARDCORE NOT TO INDIE, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
@@danhendricks68
Right on. I don't know enough about the foundation of emo to discern the real from the fake, so my comment was invoking the popular emo cliche. Thanks for the cultural enlightenment. :)
@@hhiippiittyy counter culture and it’s history is flippin wack yo
@@AnimatedTerror more so than Star Wars fans?
'And anyway if Balrog have wings why couldn't they just FLY the ring into Mordor??'
That joke alone could have made the whole video. Well done.
It's been a running gag with my friends for ages even before this video came out, and the reason I love it is it's like. aside from being absurd, it's kind of getting at the core of why the "eagles" criticism is silly.
a) the beings would likely not consent to do this deed
b) it would obviously backfire even if they did
c) the mere perception that it would even be plausible is perhaps entirely a product of movie choices obscuring otherwise obvious flaws with the plan
d) OH MY GOD WHO CARES NERDS
@koboldcatgirl i think the Hobbit (book) already covered this when the eagles refused to fly the dwarven + bilbo party to their owj destination. They can fly and are good at normal battles, but vs a dragon or god damn Sauron they were just going to make themselves and each party big flying targets.
In a video I very much enjoyed, this stood out as my favorite part.
@@StonedHunter yep!
@@StonedHunter And their primary means of attack involves their feet, which would be busy carrying someone. Even if they could fight off things with just their beaks, the rapid clashes and direction changes could kill whomever they carry or cause them to be dropped to their deaths.
"If Balrog have wings, why couldn't they just fly the ring into Mordor?" is my new favorite quote from you.
I had to pause the video because I was laughing too hard to hear the next sentence.
@L L It's a play on "Why didn't the eagles just fly the ring into Mordor?"
@L L A common question for the Lord of the Rings is "why didn't the eagles just take the Fellowship/fly the ring to Mordor?", which the series itself never answers, requiring a greater exploration/discussion of the lore to understand (and even then, the answer is only partially stated/reasonable, having to do with the relative power level of the eagles and their abilities meaning that one falling to the temptation of the ring would be tantamount to Gandalf or Galadriel succumbing) . As such, the question is an oft-repeated reference and joke in the fantasy community, typically highlighting what seem like obvious plot holes requiring complicated lore to justify or excuse/readers or players missing obvious worldbuilding that explains why the suggestion wouldn't work/overthinking narratives in general. (Since the obvious answer to the question is "because that would be a boring story")
So yes, Dan is highlighting the complexity/absurdity of the "Balrog wing" question/argument by conflating it with the more widely known "eagle-ring" question.
One does not simply fly into Mordor!
@@AllWIllFall2Me "Which the series itself never answers"
The books answers it quite clearly. The eagles are never in service of anyone, at best they help Gandalf, because he's a old friend, and even then they refuse to transport him further than to Rohan. And that's quite far from Mordor XD
Plus it's just common sense, it's repeated throughout the book that might is useless and only discretion may work. Eagles are not sneaky, and Sauron would totally be able to kill eagles if they go to Mordor, not only do Nazguls have winged mounts, orcs have bows, and despite what you'll see in most depictions, they can be quite deadly with them 😁
Oh man, Bakshi. I have a lot of respect for the guy, he helped women and minorities get jobs as animators at a time when Disney and most other companies would only have them doing other, 'lesser' work, if that. I got some stories of him and he was really progressive for the time, but he couldn't direct a good commercial product to save his life. Way more of an artist than a businessman, which sucks because animation can be such an expensive business.
The man was a true animation rebel
I wonder sometimes what the industry of animated films would look like if Bakshi had found commercial success in film. (Not saying that would be a good or worse alternative than now I just wonder.. lol)
That's the breaks. Talent and skill have nothing to do with success.
You know, this is kind of wild to me, because the budget for Bakshi's LOTR adaptation was $4 million, and it pulled in at least $32.5 in the box office alone. The reception was mainly poor because it was incomplete, but if a sequel was announced, perhaps reception would have been better.
Fuck businessmen. All my homies hate businessmen.
I feel sorry for Bakshi's struggles while working on Spider-Man, but "My coke dealer left me" has got to be the most sad/hilarious sentence in the history of the English language.
The new, 'for sale: baby shoes, never worn'
Back in the day, animation was no joke. You'd probably need uppers if you didn't have a crew the size of Disney, and even Disney likely whipped their animators like galley slaves.
@@nathanielpitts8667 Still funny though
@@nathanielpitts8667 tbf to this day animation is still no joke. though i suspect a lot of it is due to corporates habit of overworking yet underpaying their employees, sometimes to literal death.
"I've lost more girls to Spider-Man than I can count".
Hi Dan,
I don't know if you'll see this, but I felt the urge to send this out into the void anyway.
When this video came out, I was pregnant with my son and experiencing the most horrific back pain I'd ever felt in my life. In the wee hours when the pain kept me up I watched this video a dozen times. I don't know why, but it was extremely soothing to me. Maybe it was hearing a Canadian accent so far from home, or reminiscing about my high school days coming up with silly Thranduil headcanons with my friends, or the hazy memories of the incomprehensible Bakshi LotR VHS at my aunt's place that I always shunned in favor of The Hobbit or Land Before Time.
When that back pain turned out to be a rare pregnancy complication and I had to deliver my son six weeks early, I watched this video every night I was in the hospital to fall asleep. Two years later I still do, when I'm desperately trying to sneak in a snooze while my son naps.
So thank you, for being such an oddly comforting voice during the most difficult time of my life.
Dan may never read this but I did thank you for sharing. I did cry a bit. This is a lovely story I'm glad you and your son are both in a good place now!
Hope you're both doing okay.
I think you should try to send this to him through a more traditional social media because he seems like the kind of guy who would really appreciate this
to good health for you and your child
😭😭❤️😭😭
So balrogs are available with or without wings to preference, like maxi pads. Good to know.
I got that Overnight Extended Balrog with Improved Absorption
HAH! DEAD!
But wait, now I've got loads of questions regarding the Red Bull in "The Last Unicorn"... I'm joking, of course. However, I am but a peasant who cherishes the film from early childhood, and I never read the book... Why didn't the unicorns just drown in the sea when they were driven there by the Red Bull? What did they DO there all that time [SPOILER ALERT] until the film's namesake (but mostly everyone else as she kind of stumbles around in a haze) defeated the Red Bull, allowing for them to return? Just be coral? I'm serious. Please someone tell me. The movie is beautiful and quirky, but it's full of just _the worst_ music. Plus it deviates from the original book anyway, which I can't really read anyway, cos... long story --short-- less long: very bad eyesight, not fixable, and prone to headaches.
Cheers ♡
Edit 9: Don't just say "cos they're immortal". It's a two-part question. Cheers ♡♡
@@mookinbabysealfurmittens idk how they survive, but I think they're the "white horses" on the top of breaking waves. I don't remember the music as *bad* but apart from the main theme (banger) and Now That I'm a Woman (meh) I don't remember it at all so idk
@@gingganggoolie I re-watched it a few years ago, and I was having a lot of blackouts around then, but I do remember being shocked and dismayed at the cringey songs, at least in the first act. And 2nd... I also still remembered then the horror of the freak show, culminating in the Harpy scene. Terrified me as a kid, rightly so. Totally metal, but for a kid - I was 5 or 6 when I first saw it - it was intense & terrifying. And kind of disgusting, what with every wart and odd hair perfectly placed on the sagging, discoloured skin hanging off that Harpy's prominent bones. The intensity was seeded the moment the Harpy showed herself, a monstrous, miserable creature, and the attack scene was done very well with the style of quick cuts, silhouette, and flashes, and the particular use of colour.
Anyway, sorry for rambling. Kind of a habit.
@@gingganggoolie On that same vein (animated scenes that hit hard), "The Rats of NIMH". A properly epic epic, but often so intense, like the flashback scene to the horrors of the lab. The scientist is holding a rat and injecting a giant syringe into its belly and it's squealing in pain and fright... That stuck with me forever.
There are several art styles in Bakshi’s LotR that make me think “wow, that looks good. I’d like to see a whole movie animated in that style”. And I guess the fact that I thought that several times about the same movie is indicative of the inconsistency problem.
Some of those styles are really stunning.
some of those pastoral backgrounds had my jaw DROPPED.
I do find it amazing how Bakshi seamlessly weaves together beautiful art, ugly-on-purpose art, and ugly-on-accident art. True jack of all trades, that one.
Sort of reminds me of sakuga in anime; you wish the entire show looked like that, but if it did, then it wouldn't be as impactful 😅
honestly, I kinda like it for that. there's not enough experimentation in modern pop culture media. every frame of every animation or story in general is dependent on how much money it can conjure from the audience...not the spirit or heart behind it, nor the spontaneity of truly creative vision.
The artwork on the scene where Gandalf recounts fighting the Balrog is absolutely stunning, definitely one of my faves!
Here's one of my favorite quotes about LotRs
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ― John Rogers
lol...fair enough.
True.
Upon Googling "Atlas Shrugged", the most asked question is "What is the point of Atlas Shrugged?". Wow, one of those kinds of books. I would have absolutely hated to do a report on it in High School, and it would have affected my development as an adolescent. On another note, finding a copy of Isaac Asimov's Caves of Steel in my parent's basement changed my life forever.
@@shippo72 Oh yeah, it a book of crazy people, by crazy people, for crazy people.
I mean the good guys are the 1% wealthiest people on the planet, all coming together to start a new religion worshiping money, then waging war on America, and are finally crowned themselves kings of the U.S.A. and making their money cult the state religion, killing thousands in the process.
@@shippo72 I imagine the inclusion of lots of frank sexual discussion and sex scenes should keep “Atlas Shrugged” from showing up even in High School curricula. But yes, it is a meandering mess with little if any plot, functioning perhaps more like Thomas Moore’s “Utopia” in presenting what she thinks “ought” to be (as from the “is/ought” dilemma), and often also strawmaning the political ideologies that she disagrees with, so that her heroes can strike them low… but like much of the action in Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings, is very clearly fake. (OMG, I’m dropping all sorts of artistic referenes, like I’m some sort of sophisticated snob…)
There is literally a smoke shop in my town called “Wizards” with the poster for the film in its window, and yeah it’s literally just owned by an old stoner whose young mind was blown by wizards, and it’s just a whole thing.
I mean even in the book the pipe weed is obviously weed we all know Gandalf, Merry and Pippin are stoners
@@caradanellemcclintock8178 I'm convinced this is the primary reason Gandalf seems to literally never remember any of his spells until he's forced to 'dry out' in a cage or on top of a tower for a few days :P
@@xiggywiggs gandalf gotta take a T-Break to wizard right and if that ain't the most gandalf shit ever idk what is.
Wizards is one of thouse movies that is ment to be watched while high.
God bless and keep that old stoner guy and his 1978 nerd movie poster specifically
When you talked about the Rankin Bass part and "people would assume the two animated films were the same people" was the exact moment I realized that the animated Hobbit and Lord of the Rings movies I watched as a kid were, in fact, two different companies and not the same people so uh... point to them I guess.
I also think it's interesting that while Rankin-Bass *did* do both "The Hobbit" and "The Return of the King", they're rather different in quality--their "Hobbit" is way better.
Though I do think the Rankin-Bass treatment of the climactic moment of the whole trilogy, Gollum and Frodo at Mount Doom, is actually better than Peter Jackson's.
@@MattMcIrvin Yeah, I think that the idea of trying to turn ROTK into a family-friendly animated musical was just too flawed to ever produce something good. I grew up on those movies, and I have tons of nostalgia, but I fully recognize that it's uniquely wrong-headed. Except for Sam's temptation and the Watchers. It somehow nailed that section. (Which is funny since Jackson completely cut those parts out.)
Same
@@jasonblalock4429 as flawed as it is, where there's a whip there's a way still slaps
@@abnercliff9624 See, that movie is so baked into my childhood I literally don't trust myself to say what songs are good. I just have zero objectivity. Although I am still very fond of "Bearer of the Ring" and "Win The Battle / Lose The War." Even if having a musical number for the Mouth Of Sauron scene is such a *weird* choice.
Hey, it's long running character, Hat Dan! The Dan with a Hat!
HAT DAN IS YOUR ALPHA
@@rhaeven goddamn it
Dammit. Should have known 40 minutes after release was already way late to make this joke.
🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫
Queue excessive finger guns
"The film was perverted, juvenile, rambling, gratuitously violent, unfocused, aggressively political, and a huge success" has got to be one of the most amusing descriptions I've ever heard.
America the film
It was probably successful because of those things, not despite those things.
Coincidentally, it is also word for word my tinder bio
There is nothing wrong with Bakshi's films (outside of maybe not aging that well in modern times). Sometimes you need to be all those things, to open people's eyes to the crimes around them. And yes, it was funny to hear :P.
We only have to look to people like Vivziepop (Helluvaboss, HazbinHotel) to see that it still works to this day. (Hazbin's hotel original trailer has some great Bakshi like moments in it :) ).
It's certainly a popular version of masculinity in media.
"Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien" about killed me
Finally someone brought up how the majority of modern blockbusters are mostly animated despite not being treated as "animations" and how there's a weird arbitrary line between what counts and doesnt count as an animated film
People insist on calling The Lion King remake from a few years ago "live action" despite the fact that... you know... the characters are all CGI.
@@rickyl3819 Well yes there's that case but also for example whenever people claim that Avengers is a live action movie despite like 80% of the movie being computer animation. If you know that meme about someone posting a green screen and saying "look how beautiful the MCU photography is" you'll know what I mean
Bakshi's films walked so that Jorge's Episode 1 could ...step in shit.
*_"IT BROKE NEW GROUND!"_* ↼‸↼
The way I see it, is an animated film is a film in which the animation is the centrepiece. Youre supposed to know its animated and the visual style and storytelling are rooted in it looking overtly stylised. Live action with cgi elements is a film that is rooted in realism. You arent supposed to see the seams of where the animation begins and the live action ends. If a character looks fantastical, or even if the set is 90% computer generated and superimposed onto a green screen, the visual style is supposed to depict it as being as close to real life as possible. The Lion King 2019 is "live action" because it was designed to resemble real life photorealistically. You wouldnt know just from watching Avengers Assemble, the extent to which it is cgi. You figure, "yeah I guess the aliens and superpowers are cgi, but it seems like theyre shooting on location." But as we all know all of New York in those scenes is cgi as well as all the aliens.
@@angusmarch1066 MCU movies have a lot of surrealism in them, though. Talking animals, mutated beings, advanced alien planets, magic, magical dimentions, magical gloves, time-travel etc. Other better examples like Avatar, which is trying to remove itself from recognizable reality as much as possible (Pandora is so unlike Earth that it has floating islands), or stuff like Matrix, Speed Racer, Godzilla vs Kong. These movies are a lot less realistic than something like Ratatouille or Finding Nemo (which have talking animals but everything else is supposed to resemble reality) and Toy Story, which even attempts to recreate film effects like the split diopter
The balrog wings rant is the hardest I've laughed in weeks. The emu falling off the cliff ... I just ... it's so good.
Balrog from Street Fighter II as "without wings" got me good.
"Mister Jolkein Rolkein Rolkein Tolkein" just about killed me. XD
Reminds me a bunch of how Douglas Adams described the flightless Kakapo parrots. The gist being that as they found themselves in a land with no natural predators, they realized that instead of flying in, eating a tiny bit and flying away repeatedly. They could instead eat a whole bunch... "and then have a waddle."
Looking around in nature ut is surprisingly telling that when creatures can give up on flying, they usually do. Because flying is exhausting work for most flyers.
So the Balrog having wings more for intimidation and display rather than flying around like dragons makes evolutionary sense.
Of course, on the other hand Balrogs being part of natural evolution with the limitations it brings in a world where fantastical magical beasts can be conjured by incantations might not make total sense either.
But all in all, I haven't actually thought of how the wings can be basically only there to scare adversaries by spreading out wall to wall.
As an animation professor, I genuinely appreciate the fair and complete breakdown of Bakshi's work. We (professors) cite his work all of the time to discuss the history of animation technique and process. Thanks, Dan!
This take on Bakshi's work is refreshingly nuanced - neither worshiping him nor demonizing him.
If I have to hear one more person say "demonize" ("demonizing", etc.) think I'll scream. The overuse/misuse of this word is driving me crazy.
@@GreenAshR47 what would be a better alternative for demonize?
@@Lumber_jocks Degrading, maybe.
Practically every take on Bakshi you'll see is "nuanced". It's very rare to find anyone who outright hates or loves him absolutely.
I really enjoyed this video, and I do appreciate Bakshi's contributions to animation. However, it stings that the only comment on Bakshi's long history of enabling and committing sexual harassment was just that he was "a pervert." Maybe Dan isn't aware, but ask any older folks in animation who worked during that time - especially women. I know several women who left animation from all the physical and verbal harassment they experienced while working on Bakshi's productions. Some were told "that's just the way things are" while getting a slap on the ass. Some were denied opportunities explicitly because they weren't "pretty enough".
Sexism in animation could be found at any studio at this time, of course, but the sheer amount of physical harassment on these productions is disgusting. You had to chose between a career in animation, or abuse. We can still feel the effects of this 50 years later; it's only very recently that we're starting to see a shift in gender demographics and ousting of some of the nasty men who abuse their power (albeit women still tend to be underpaid).
"Then we must do without hope. There is always Vengeance!"
God, that made me crack up so hard. After an entire lifetime of fantasy characters waffling on and on about how there is always hope, hearing a character just admit to things being hopeless and holding up vengeancce as a better motivation is soooooooooo satisfying to me.
And yet, that's straight from the book. Chapter VI of the fellowship, Aragorn asks what hope is there without Gandalf, and says to the rest of the fellowship that they have to do without hope, but they still can be avenged.
And this feeling of hopelessness is recurring throughout the books. When Theoden rides to Gondor, it's not because he hope to save Minas Tirith, but for honour, death and glory. And before that, all hope is lost in Helm's deep too
@@krankarvolund7771 It's a very sobering moment, to be sure. That sometimes things seem hopeless, and we don't have it in us to proceed under hope we don't feel. As such, the only thing we can do is cling to whatever keeps us moving forward, whatever allows us to go on. If not hope, then revenge and spite. Because if you just stop in your tracks, there can never be a possibility for hope in the future.
That line reminds me of a verse from Laurie Anderson's song O Superman, particularly the middle bit.
"'Cause when love is gone,
There's always justice
And when justice is gone,
There's always force
And when force is gone,
There's always Mom
Hi Mom!"
@@Bluecho4 Yeah. And well, Tolkien was a WW 1 veteran, he probably knew that feeling very well 😅
@@krankarvolund7771 He assuredly did. More than one of his personal friends died in combat. He was at the Somme, so he might as well have been posted to Hell for six or seven months. His battalion was almost completely wiped out, there's a pretty good chance he'd have been killed too if he hadn't caught some trench fever and been sent home.
As someone who's seen Fritz the Cat, your delivery of "I am very curious about what Ralph Balkshi thinks happens on the Simpsons" killed me instantly, and I too would like to know.
In limited defense of Ralph Bakshi, some of the violence - especially in the older days - wouldn't be too far removed from things that happened in Fritz the Cat (not exactly surprising either, considering Matt Groening was from the same school of underground artists) and is even referenced a few times.
The racism is far more understated though, and we all know Americans can't handle female presenting nipples.
@@Groovebot3k I mean, I'm not coming out of this video meaning to be unfairly critical of Ralph Bakshi's work. But as someone who's seen the first twenty or so season of the Simpsons, I don't know if one can really compare it to something like Fritz the Cat despite Groening's experience with underground art and earlier work like Life in Hell. There was a little more than female presenting nips going on in some of those scenes, the one with Harriet especially.
It makes me wonder if Bakshi was ever approached to do a Couch Gag...
To be fair, if Bakshi was talking in terms of violence he'd hit the nail on the head. Itchy and Scratchy is a definite nod to Fritz with similar levels of violence.
I actually feel inclined to defend him here. I think he was speaking metaphorically in terms of how The Simpsons began depicting challenging social satire on television and that's it. Which it did. The idea of ruffling feathers, so to speak. I think these are the context of what his words were meant to convey, he just didn't explain it very well. This seems to be a theme with Bakshi. A man who is smarter than his own mouth. His brain has complex statements he wishes to convey that don't come out sounding as stellar as they were before his mentality filters them awkwardly.
Folding Ideas is the avocado tree of TH-cam. It takes 15 years but it's so fucking good
What a great analogy. I'll frame it on my wall.
I don't think there's anybody better, and I'm going to check out his monetary support options afterwards.
It involved in mutual symbiosis with a giant ground sloth that was hunted to extinction by humans and now depends on those same humans to exist?
@@AlRoderick Yes, exactly
@@AlRoderick yeah bro is this not obvious??
The first and only time I ever saw this movie was when I was 14 years old. I had a high fever, and was incapacitated on the couch while my older brother (a huge nerd) watched the movie. That was one of the most disorienting and frankly hellish movie watching experiences I have ever had.
I have a very similar situation for when I first saw this and to this day I've not rewatched it in full so the scattered memories I do have are absolutely wild and trippy.
This is similar to how I first saw Wizards, it was in the SciFi channel late at night and for years I thought I'd imagined a gnome fighting Nazis.
Ralph Bakshi is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
I had a feverishly similar experience with Donnie Darko. Oh boy, I didn't like it
@jontarr7444 ahhh man that sucks. Donnie Darko is one of my all time favorite Sci-Fi movies. If you ever decide to revisit it, check out the Director's Cut as it's a little easier to follow.
"It's a melancholic point about how the people of Middle Earth have grown apart, distrustful, isolated, to the point that even being asked to say 'friend' feels like a trick."
Ouch. 2021 in a nutshell.
Dan: “This tv movie is largely unmemorable..”
Me: “But..”
Dan: “Save for this absolute banger ‘where there’s a whip there’s a way’l
Me “Hell yeah”
Oh my god it was all I could think
DISCO ORCS. The LoTR feature we didn’t know we needed!
The other songs are also bangers, the Bearer of the Ring, the Wearer of the Ring is also great.
You’re probably the first TH-camr I’ve seen who, while not shitting on him by any means, doesn’t give Ralph Bakshi unilateral praise either. It’s interesting to see, and honestly makes me wants to see his movies more than the unilateral praise
I says if you have not seen the movies you should watch them.. I personally Liked the movie Wizards and now I have a few other movies I need to watch..
100% agree! You've summed up my feelings perfectly
Really?
I think Bakshi isn't a complete hack but vastly overrated who got in over his head and never really made a good film. Fire and Ice comes closest to being watchable.
@@Tareltonlives personally Fire and Ice i think was his best movie
It's very interesting that in the Jackson films, he sometimes lifts entire segments shot for shot from the Bakshi film, most notably the hobbits hiding from the Black Riders under the tree. Way ahead of his time, and a very unique film and one that has a warm place in my heart. Excellent video, very well thought out and balanced.
Bakshi was presumably inspired for that scene by Arthur Rackham’s art for “Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens.”
John Howe made a painting of the scene, and has said that he was inspired by Bakshi’s film (he must have been, because in the book the scene is a bit different). Then Peter Jackson hired John Howe to gain access to all of Howe’s Tolkien art.
But it’s probably true that Jackson watched all of the animated Tolkien films, and took inspiration from Bakshi rather than from Howe.
I’m old enough to remember going to the movies to watch this movie. I hadn’t read LOTR or knew much about it, the movie was awesome and after it became obvious there wasn’t going to be a follow up it drove me to read the book, which due to the movie , gave me a better understanding of the book.
Years later I watched the Peter Jackson version and could definitely see an influence.
Which do I prefer? Let’s just say I never had the urge to watch the next two movies in Jackson’s trilogy
You missed something.
When I saw Fellowship in theaters, I got the nagging sense during that scene that I'd seen it before, like it was some kind of deja-vu I didn't understand. The moment I saw that clip again in this essay, I realized why.
@@davidmitchell7181 You disliked Jackson's Fellowship enough to skip the next two movies of the trilogy? I mean, to each their own but I admit that's baffling to me.
Two of life's greatest mysteries: "does the Balrog have wings?" and "what does Ralph Bakshi think happens on The Simpsons?".
"This LotR nonsense would be far too expensive to film - lets animate it". "This LotR animation is getting pricey, can we not film it and paint over the top?"
I wonder if Bakshi had gotten the same kind of money and support as, say, Shane Dawson, what would he have been able to do? Well, besides all the coke :)
@@d.r.bartlette3431
Kinda random
@@vintheguy I'm just thinking about how limited Bakshi was by low budgets (in some of his movies anyway). Imagine what he could have done if he'd had enough money.
@@d.r.bartlette3431
I meant that your reference to Shane Dawson is pretty random
@@d.r.bartlette3431 da fuq
Thank you for giving "Where There's a Whip There's a Way" it's well-deserved credit. That song haunted my childhood in the very best way.
...Wondering if anyone has used it as a title for a fanfic involving... any balrog, really
i do think he's sleeping on frodo of the nine fingers, though
I stumbled on it on TH-cam one day, and I am still pissed that all the comments were like "oh my god imagine if the Peter Jackson movies had been like this, hahaha CRINGE"
Screw that. That song is a banger, and one of the few things that could've improved Jackson's trilogy would have been singing orcs.
The best part about that musical number is the complete ignorance (or just indifference) of the nature of Tolkien’s Orcs. One fault that critics bring up about them is that they are so inhuman as to be one dimensional. They are just plain and simply evil (as they were created to be), but they are also sentient beings, who would in reality be more complicated than simple villains. The fact that the Rankin Bass Orcs are just like you and me, displaying contempt and complacency in the service of a catchy tune (“We don’t wanna go to war today..”) is nothing like the scary, purposely driven Orcs of the book.
The slow then rapid descent into madness over the Balrog's wings were intriguing. I had no idea it was such a big debated and infuriating topic.
The Balrog wings question reminds me why I love fandom. I'm being serious. Like, the Balrog isn't even real and look at how much time and energy so many people over so many decades have devoted to headcanons of a nonexistent monster.
It's great.
For me, the weirdest thing about the rotoscoping was that in general the orcs look insubstantial, whereas the Balrog is this lumpy, solid (not to mention appallingly drawn) thing when they should be the other way around.
@@princess_intell That's why I was getting such weird vibes from the flying! Yes, you can just feel the suspension of the actor in the way the Balrog moves. It's so weird to watch.
The Balrog is just built different ok?
I'm sorry, "the bearded wizard shoots Skeleton Hitler" sounds pretty neato to me
It’s one of the only examples I can think of where the wizard casts Bullet
@@oneinathousand2156 ...and it works!
@@oneinathousand2156 Allow me to introduce you to 'Wizard with a Gun'
th-cam.com/video/XYiwjWoenJo/w-d-xo.html
Which is hilarious and ironic since the Aesop of the movie is technology = bad!
It sounds pretty neat, until you see how flatly it's executed. It's not paced very well, doesn't have any real build-up and doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion to the moment - because it doesn't really have a moment to it. You can see what he was going for, but it just kinda goes by so fast that you don't have time to feel any impact from it.
The power of Jackson's trilogy is such that just watching those fleeting seconds of Sam with Frodo in his arms, exhausted and worn on the lip of doom, threatens to bring tears to my eyes. What a trilogy. What a moment. What a book.
When my son saw "Wizards" at 5 (with his big Bro) he decided he wanted to be an animator. Many years later he ended up in Las Cruces, NM going to school, and was asked to teach before he graduated. At the school he met Ralph Bakshi's son who taught there and ended up working for Ralph. Believe in you dreams. :)
Man, that Balrog wings section is maybe one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. The subtle Street Fighter joke is incredible.
Yeah, but it also elides the fact that in SF2, the character that's known as "Balrog" was originally "M. Bison" in the original Japanese version, and the M. Bison in the U.S. version is originally "Vega", who goes by "Balrog" in Japan.
@@entroponetics um actually, M Bison was originally the boxer however fearful that Mike Tyson might catch on Capcom changed, Balrog (the Spanish ninja bullfighter) to Vega, Vega (the end game boss) to M Bison, and M Bison to Balrog.
@@godfreemorals that's what they said
@@NAFEDUDE Meaningfully and succinctly explaining the calculus behind the name changes Boxer, Claw, and Dictator undergo between languages is so confusing that people are arguing points they agree upon at each other. That's just how it be.
@@godfreemorals that's what I said.
Honestly I could listen to Dan narrating a snail race for five hours, but this is a fascinating topic in itself. Some of the visuals in Bakshi movies are unlike anything I've ever seen in my DIsney-filled life. And as always, stellar analysis
Same.
He'd probably make the snail race interesting. We'd learn unexpected things about snail athletics
A Lukewarm Narration of a Snail Race
The visual joke with Balrogs having / not having wings in videogames killed me.
I was at the Ottawa International Animation Festival the year that Bakshi was a guest, and while my classmates and I were at a pub, one loudly said 'Did anybody else hate Wizards?', as we had watched it in one of our classes. Turns out, Bakshi was was drinking at the same pub and gave her a killer stink eye.
I haven't heard from her since graduation, so I have a suspicion that he had her assassinated.
Surprise ending
Obama was there
Bakshi's decision to rely on rotoscoping for stuff that animation would have been uniquely able to depict in the 70s - the balrog, the wraiths, the orcs, Helm's deep - is extraordinarily bizarre. You're working in the one medium where you could convincingly draw and ink a tall demon of shadow and flame, and instead you opt to shove a guy in a lion mask, slippers, and giant, flopping moth wings?
I feel this is the same pitfall of 21st century Zemeckis movies.
he prebably was running out of money at the time ... sooooo thats what we got.
All of the live-action was intended to be shot just for reference, to be animated by hand later. Trouble was in those days, unless you accept Pokemon-level of choppy, then character animation can get very rime-consuming - and time = $.
They ran out of both, and were not coordinated between depts to run a tight-enough ship to finish by deadline what was originally envisioned.
@@StumpyDaPaladin Doesn't rotoscoping take MORE effort though?
@@LordVader1094 I have no idea
It's a uniquely Canadian accent that doesn't pronounce the L in "Gandalf", but does pronounce the L in "both"
???
@@bobsbigboy_ bolth
@@bobsbigboy_ bolth
hilariously true
Not unique to Canada. I'm from NY and I say gandawf and bolth. I also realize many of us here say "nexjeer" and "lassjeer" (next year and last year).
watching this for like the 5th time, here's all the moments where someone walks into the background of the shot of dan sitting on a log
3:09-4:08 1 person
4:31-5:37 a few moving pixels in the far background that seem to be a person (interrupted by images thrown up on the right of the screen but if it's a person it's all the same person)
8:59-9:27 1 person (blue shirt)
12:54-12:56 1 person on a bike, seems to be someone else following them behind the bushes but the video cuts away before that person can emerge
14:58-15:08 a few moving pixels in the far background that seem to be a person on a bike
42:06-42:30 2 people, one of them points directly at dan at the end of the shot, presumably having noticed the camera. This is the one that caused me to make this comment
I need to mention this because Dan never indicates he's aware:
The ending of the Bakshi LOTR was CHANGED for the DVD versions. Originally, the narration (which occured at that freeze-frame before the credits) said "so ends the first part of the war of the one ring," making it more clear a sequel was intended.
I have no idea why this change was made, but old VHS editions have the original narration.
I mean it's pretty clear why. At that point, it would have been obvious there was no sequel coming, so they would have wanted to avoid confusing people and getting angry letters asking where part 2 is.
@@manjackson2772 I'd like to think the average member of the general public is actually a lot smarter than movie studios give them credit for. So many bizarre studio decisions can be explained by the fact that studio executives genuinely think movie going audiences are a bunch of idiots and will reject anything too intellectually challenging.
now i have a distinct memory of watching this on tv. was really confused when i was a kid, thinking "i wonder when i'll get to see the rest of it", asking my parents, getting shrugs as answers
@@Drestlin Ironically one could continue directly from Bakshi's film to Jackson's Return of the King and not miss irreconciable amounts of plot.
@@sirjanska9575 yeah but by that point i had already devoured the book several times :D
Interestingly, despite the fact that I’m only 21 I grew up with the Bakshi version first, most likely because my dad thought the Peter Jackson version might be kinda inappropriate for a kid. In hindsight this is hilarious considering Bakshi’s oeuvre
I also grew up with Bakshi's version because my dad was (still is) a huge fan of the books and the Middle Earth world. Jackson's version didn't exist at the time, I think it was around 1998 when I saw the animated movie.
Same here, I’m 23 and was introduced into Jackson’s LOTR during 2nd grade, but wanted to watch them earlier than that. I found the Bakshi version in an accordion VHS case at a video store, and was allowed to watch that
"A Coked-Out Pervert From Brooklyn: The Ralph Bakshi Story" would be quite the catchy title for a biography.
I would also accept "Bakshi-Crazy: The Unbelievable True Story of American's Most Controversial Cartoonist"
The second one’s subtitle is a bit generic, tbh. But the main title is great. Bakshi-Crazy is perfect for him.
@@LordJagd How about "Bakshi-Crazy: The Story of a Coked-Out Pervert from Brooklyn Turned Controversial Cartoonist"
Finding the "Most Controversial Cartoonist" is like plucking a single raindrop from a cloud.
@@ava_marie_v He'd probably go for that lol, he's on Facebook and allegedly does respond to people. Last I heard from a student his son still works at New Mexico State University who did also answer emails. I didn't save his email tho as I'm not an animation student and had no questions 😭
"Most controversial cartoonist"
So, john krickfauksi,??
I find myself coming back to this documentary now that a lot of current animators have had their work stolen through the HBO/Discovery merger. So much talent in a non-union hellscape of an industry.
I'm aware Final Space has been written off for tax purposes and will be permanently removed from streaming services but what other examples of this kind of conduct are there? That sounds horrific.
"Dictatorship of the bourgeoisie" moments compilation.
@@owaingray3480Infinity Train, Mao Mao, among others
Coyote vs ACME is on the list.
fun fact: in the japanese translation of lord of the rings, the balrog is called micheal bison due to copyright laws
Another Fun fact: The character J. Guile from the Street Fighter series is called Centerfold in the international version of the games he appears in, so they can avoid copyright.
Like in Streetfighter? Wierd.
@@MegaManXPoweredUp That's funny that they had to the same thing for JBA's J Giel and make his localized name Centerfold
@@RetroIsaac Tha...that's the joke. It's not actually a true fact, it's a joke about the Street Fighter thing.
@@timothymclean oh 😔
Love Bakshi! Wizards is a lot of fun.
Edit: oops you didn't like that one lol
Wizards is frickin tons of fun. Good? maybe not. But I dunno, it's his most traditionally watchable film and is a great late night movie for friends.
Hi Adum
Wizards is amazing.
Your taste is validated.
Wizards kinda looks like He-Man
Hmmm, suspicious
It’s a mess but It’s still fun!
Fun fact: 4 years after animating the mostly bad Rankin Bass Return of the King, Topcraft made Nausicaa of The Valley of The Wind
Random to see your comment here with only 16 likes after a day. Surprised its not at the top.
Not me commenting something about sakuga in regards to the animation style, which I first learned about from your video, in response to a comment 2 above this one, just to scroll down and see this 😂😂😂
Hay it got us that rendition of Where There’s A Whip There’s A Way, nothing that delivers something like that can ever be all bad.
Whaaaat?!? 🤯
I don’t think the style is that bad, it’s basically the Japanese animation style that’s based more on strong poses (key frames) instead of the Disney/western animation based on fluidity. Even if you look at Hayao Miyazaki’s films there’s plenty of times where characters are standing mostly still with their mouth oscillating between three or four shapes. You can see that sort of restraint in the Rankin-Bass Tolkien films, just with more westernized designs on top (although Smaug is very eastern looking for a dragon)
The extreme force of the Jackson movies and their soundtrack are underlined by the fact that both super short clips you showed from Return Of The King immediately made me tear up.
Me, a few minutes ago: “Hey, I recognize the tune in the background during the Balrog segment, what song is that aga- oh goddammit it’s Band on the Run by Wings. Fuck you Dan.”
WINGS! THAT'S the connection! I was like "Why 'Band on the Run'?" when watching, but like my brain goes "It's a Paul song" first, forgetting the name of his post-Beatle band until it comes up elsewhere.
It’s strangely appropriate, given that Peter Jackson, the OTHER LOTR Guy, is now working extensively with the Beatles.
Dan’s pronunciation of “Gandalf” is gonna throw me every time.
Like seriously! Where did he pick this up!? It's so bizarre
gandaff
I thought it was some kind of hidden reference or running gag but I either didn't get it or just missed the payoff
I think it's a reference to the Aruman/Saruman thing?
@@marys.9367 gandafffff
I never thought about modern green screen-heavy filmmaking as being indebted to the early days of animation-merged rotoscoping, but that is such a perfect comparison. I suppose there’s a little Cool World in everything these days!
"And anyway, if Balrog have wings, why couldn't they just FLY the ring into Mordor?" I know you weren't aware of this, but you wrote that joke just for me. I love it.
Its such a strange coincidence that both major adaptations of TLOTR were directed by men whose previous films were notoriously gory and explicit cult films.
And now the Amazon series is being made but the guys who wrote... Jungle Cruise
If I had a nickel for every time this happened….I’d have two nickels, but it’s weird that it happened twice!
The cheap midi version of “Band on The Run” during the segment on “Does the Balrog have wings” is absolute gold.
Guess I just need to just be humbled and happy that it took me this long to find someone else who caught that. Made me laugh even harder for how it took me so long to catch what it was. Tips hat
thanks for telling me what it is! i look forward to getting to that point on this rewatch :)
As someone who's not familiar with the song, what's the significance here?
@@archer2181 the song was recorded by the band Wings.
FINALLY I FOUND A COMMENT TALKING ABOUT THIS
I KNEW I HEARD THE SONG BEFORE BUT I COULDN'T REMEMBER THE NAME TO SAVE MY LIFE.
Showing Street Fighter's Balrog during the section covering whether or not the Balrog has wings was my favorite bit.
YET fails to mention the fact that the character WE know as Street Fighter's Balrog's- original name(and name in Japan) was/is M.Bison (a take on Mike Tyson) which was changed and switched.
USA - Balrog , Vega, M.Bison
JAPAN - M.Bison, Balrog, Vega
Explaining all 'Balrog's' moves being Buffalo and Bison themed, 'Vega's' moves being all demon themed and 'M.Bison's' moves being about 1970's Chevys.
THERES EVEN DEBATES ANSD DISCUSSION WITHOUT TOLKIEN INVOLVED.
@@jddelphin I came here looking for @mechanomics's comment so that I could make your comment and was pleased to find them both already here.
This feels almost exactly like the difference between the 1984 and 2021 Dune movies. The 2021 movie is widely considered an amazing adaptation of the source material, but there are still some very devoted fans of the 1984 version. Additionally, the 1984 movie features more exact dialog from the book, and the details are more similar, but it an many ways simplifies or downright contradicts the story's deeper ideas
I found the 2021 movie to be very slick, but also kind of minimal and bland. The 1984 one is batshit, and arguably a worse movie, but Lynch injects it with a really unique energy that makes it worth watching. There is no film like 1984's Dune (for good or ill). 2021 Dune was just going through the motions for me.
the biggest thing I missed from the 2021 Dune were the sets. 1984 Dune had fucking incredible sets/environments
I think we can all agree the "best" Dune film was the unproduced Jodorowsky film, meant to be filmed in the 70s. Say what you want about the concept art, it would have been _aesthetic as hell._ The world is poorer for it not being realized.
the Jodorowsky has nothing to do with Dune@@Bluecho4
Forget the Balrog wing controversy. We got Dan here trying to start the "L" in "Gandalf" is silent war.
I know right? It's really distracting
His real problem with pronunciation is when he pronounces the 2nd syllable of “Nazgul” like “gull” rather than “ghoul.” Ouch.
Driving me insane lol
Sometime in the year 1997 a weary adult put a VHS bootleg of this movie on to keep me quiet, and now I finally understand wtf I saw all those years ago.
Because it was a bootleg, it cut out before the ending. There is just a wee bit of irony in wanting to see the rest of the film only to discover the full version also just..ends.
Another mystery solved! Thanks Dan
I always respect the hell out of art that’s willing to risk being bad in order to try something new. It’s experimental in the purest sense of the word, trying things to see if they work and learning from the results.
Honestly, probably the best adaptation of The Lord of the Rings is the BBC radio drama. It keeps narration to a minimum and relies on dialogue to keep the story moving, has strong acting including some reprisals from Bakshi's film and the perfect casting for Sam, and remains truer to the text including keeping in the songs both film adaptations drop. It's possibly the first thing I suggest people try when mentioning the strengths of audio dramas
I highly recommend it to anybody who hasn't listened to it.
He's right. It's really good and underrated! Also Ian Holm is great as Frodo and Micheal Hordern's Gandalf sounds very similar to Ian McKellen!(Or I suppose McKellen sounds similar to Hordern)
@@RandomAllen Ian McKellen has stated that his Gandalf voice is heavily influenced by recordings of Tolkein's voice.
Yeah it’s the definitive adaptation for me.
Does it have Tom Bombadill in it?
Could not agree more, the BBC adaptation is a true work of art. Personally, I think Jackson's movies are superb but I also have a soft spot for Bakshi's film and think it gets way too much criticism.
I'm only a minute in, but this Dan fella' loves being near a large body of water. Total waterhead, this bloke. Not in the hydrocephalic sense, mind you.
i read this in a columbo voice
@@vecvecvec oh, but,, just one ☝️ more thing
Still at the lake, still in search of a flat earth
it's a whole vibe and I love it because I feel the same way about water. I've lived on the waterfront my whole life, I adore cities with rivers, it just feels like it does something good to the soul
@@vecvecvec crocodile Dundee voice for me
Considering Bakshi’s tendency towards episodic work, it seems like what he would have done very well is - ironically enough - a Hobbit movie.
The Hobbit is much more of a “one chapter a night” style of episodic plot than LOTR, which is one of the main reasons Jackson’s style was such a bad fit.
Next big HBO series perhaps?
@@Ralph-yn3gr Does HBO do quirky kids shows?
@@falconJB They did at some point, right? They had Fraggle Rock, that has to count for something.
I thought the studio wanting the Hobbit to be expanded into 3 movies was why the Hobbit films suck?
@@lainiwakura1776 they are talking about how the original book is episodic in nature, like it’s not a traditional story structure. Every chapter is a new story. The movies failed because they tried to make it a traditional story structure and stretched it over three movies.
It's really interesting hearing about the "abridgement" of Bakshi's film and its reliance on viewer foreknowledge, because I feel like that's something that I don't experience a lot in theatrical adaptations but is super common in fanfiction as a medium of expression. It's the reason that fanfictions with serial numbers filed off don't work well as standalones- no matter how beautiful the fanfiction was, it almost invariably has a kind of unconscious blindness to exposition that the intended reader will be untroubled by. I'd definitely love to see the Bakshi film. It seems incredibly interesting, despite how difficult it seems to be to access.
Have you seen Dan's videos on the 50 Shades series? He goes into the thing you mentioned about fan fiction a bit.
I think the only time that happened in a theatrical adaptation was Harry Potter, or at least the later ones. As the books got longer and longer, they HAD to cut things to make the length of a standard theatrical film's length. Since the audience for the books was so large, it was like the filmmakers knew they could drop a few elements or explanations since, well, the people watching the films more than likely had already read and memorized the books.
It's terrible as a film, but it's definitely worth a watch
That's really well-put.
The Harry Potter films definitely did it- I didn't realize how much until I saw a video pointing it out.
Bakshi’s films are art school films (saying this as an animation student). They’re full of experimentation and raw creativity. They both exemplify the creativity of a freshman project and the quality of a film you can study. If you’re wondering I both admire and am confounded by his work
Bakshi s certainly a definite pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
Who the hell would do x rated garbage as a thing to show to art school students?
@@ColeSlaw-rg1gd You *really* needed to shoehorn in that mini rant about wokeness didn't you
@@GenesisTheKitty The RACIAL CHARICATURES in some of Bakshis' cartoons from the 70s would be highly at odds with woke types of this day and age - THTA's what I was referring to.
@@ColeSlaw-rg1gdyikes dude, get therapy 😂
I appreciate the theming of Dan always being next to a body of water in recent videos. I look forward to the inevitable Jaccuzi dan.
Wearing only cut off jeans under which his swim trunks are showing
Hot tub Dan meta
One of my favourite moments in the Bakshi adaptation is when Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are chasing the orcs and the scenes go on for like 10 minutes of dudes running and at one point Aragorn eats shit and falls in slow motion it's fucking hilarious.
@@mezzb Huh? The point of him tripping is to convey how exhausted he is by the epic chase. Why do you think it's a blooper?
@@mbenoni7397 because it looks family
@@mbenoni7397 bit of a late reply but yeah I get that it's to imply Aragorn is exhausted after his long chase. But I can't help but believe that it was put in because Bakshi himself either thought it was funny as well, or they weren't able to find an alternative/better take qnd decided to use it
the rant about the Balrog is one of those things that feels like it would be great in a "Folding Ideas Without Context" compliation
50:35 your words about a companion to the text perfectly illustrate why I so love the David Lynch version of Dune, and I understand why it doesn't appeal to others. I saw it years before I read the book, and while the visuals stuck with me, the plot had evaporated from my memory. This made it a great visual reference for all the things in the book, helping me to keep it all straight, and allowing me to focus more on the plot on my first read. Which, being Dune, helped immensely.
Try the spice Diver 4k dune fan edit for a tasty treat 😙
"The bearded wizard ends the war by shooting skeleton Hitler"
Now that's a sentence.
So what you're saying is that the same guy who made the first adaptation of LOTR also had a hand in creating furries. Truly a reflection of the duality of man.
There is a totally weird adaptation of the hobbit that takes the trophies for "only screen adaptation to come out in Tolkien's lifetime" and "The reason he was against adaptations of his work", it is a sight to behold. th-cam.com/video/UBnVL1Y2src/w-d-xo.html
Truly a man at the cutting edge of technology and the cutting edge of being horny on main
Fredrik Knudsen has a really interesting video about the history of furries and their roots in mid-ish 1900s cartoons and comics. Check it out if you got time
th-cam.com/video/8aF2GxWi7Ag/w-d-xo.html
@@ezraclark7904 wasn't that one created purely as a way to hold on to the film rights? Which is why it's so cheaply made with "animation" consisting of moving around still drawings with their hand. And why it's so short. It's like those unreleased Captain America and Fanatastic 4 movies, created on the cheap purely to hold on to the movie rights (though the Fantastic 4 one is actually the best fantastic 4 movie ever made, funnily enough. I assume the new Marvel one will be pretty great though, I used to hate the marvel films till I sat down and watched all of them in a row, and I realised they're actually great, and keep getting better)
This Hobbit film from 1967 is just a mess though. Not even a good mess. He made it to hold on to the rights, and then sold the rights back to Tolkien anyway. I guess he cared only about the money, it wasn't an artistic dream of his or anything. Is the Rankin Bass hobbit movie any good? I've never seen that one. And I've only seen the first one of the Peter Jackson hobbit trilogy, cos I hated the first one and couldn't be bothered to watch the other 2. I should probably do that some day
@@duffman18 the Rankin bass movie is great, it really encapsulates what the hobbit is on its own
“Video games alternate between wings and no wings” [shows Balrog from SF2]
/spittake
38:30 - came here to highlight this too
from the US version of SF2*. In the Japanese version, Balrog is the Spanish figther with a mask and a claw.
@@Krokrodyl Still no wings, although he does fly a lot more.
@@Krokrodyl Strangely enough, in the Japanese version of LOTR the Balrog wears a red hat and does psycho crushers on Gandalf.
I had no idea Fritz the Cat and the animated LOTR film were made by the same person. That is...quite the repertoire.
Are you aware of what Peter Jackson made in his early career?
Ralph Bakshi, regardless of how much he offends ones tender delicate contemporary p.c. wokist sensibilities, is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
@@ColeSlaw-rg1gd I want you to know that first sentence of yours contains the most embarrassing string of words I've read all week.
@@FlorSilvestre12 Yeah well, just the same, I do believe that string to be quite apt. The man's earlier films (particularly), like Heavy traffic and Coonskin, are the sort of thing that make modern woke types $h!t blood. They've offended more conservative sensibilities too, but for different reasons (mainly their raunchiness and vulgarity).
My dude, you've copy/pasted this exact same reply on at least a dozen threads here. Glad the guy's work resonates with you. No one here is equally invested in Jackson's work, but you can pick this fight you're looking for literally anywhere else on the internet.
Looking back, as you touch on, Bakshi was probably among the worst choices to do an animated LoTR as it requires a focus and plot directed discipline which was never Bakshi's strong point. On the other hand, for the 70s, he was pretty much the only choice to do it as he was the only person then seeing the ability of animation to tell adult stories.
I actually agree. He had the artistic skill for such a complex and alien world, but he cannot tell a narrative
So, in a way, Bakshi was to animated _LoTR_ was Zach Snyder was to _Legend of the Guardians: the Owls of Ga'Hoole:_ a poor choice given the fundamental issues with the way they tell a story, but at the same time, probably the only one willing to make the movie and get the movie finished with the animated film industry in North America being what it is.
Rather fittingly, both films would adapt too many books at once, struggle heavily with their plot, but have some brilliantly animated scenes (and I normally dislike the visuals in Snyder's films, so that's saying a lot).
naaaah i disagree. He had a vision on how to articulate the books to a cinematic audienace through the opening of the movie and other parts so that the audience can get whats happening. I just feel he doesnt get enough credit because its very obvisous that his movie inspired Jacksons movie and i have no idea why Jackson doesnt give him more. Possibly due to studio preasure, who knows
He really needed at least one other person working alongside him that was better at the focus and overall story telling so he could focus more on the personal moments he's clearly better at.
@@DafyddBrooks You make a great point. My earliest recollection of Bakshi's LOTR was an edited for television version on Local NYC Channel 5 in the early 1980s. I disliked it as the animation style was so jarring and abstract compared to what I was used to (I think I was 8 or 9). I wasn't ready yet for it. But by college I could see plain as day the influence this animated film had on later science fantasy live film and animation. Give this man his flowers now!
That ending narration was tacked on for the DVD re-release in the 90s.
The original theatrical release had a much simpler narration: "Here ends part one of the War of the Ring".
I KNEW that part sounded different than I remembered it. Thanks for confirming I'm not just crazy.
Its a bit refreshing to hear the phrase "coked out pervert from Brooklyn" and not have to think about a former world leader. Great video!
Obsessed
@@salsathemonkey22 I mean, he was the leader of the largest economy, largest military power, and largest political power in the world during an incredibly politically momentous time for 4 whole years, including a nuclear crisis, WW3 scare, and a once-in-a-century-pandemic; given his effect on the world, I'd be shocked if people *weren't* still talking about him, only 6 months after...
Once again proving that symbol and referent are two very different things.
my uncle was offered a job to work on the production for lord of the rings, but he turned it down because New Zealand was "too hot and too far away and i'm too old to stay there for three years" lol. i remember seeing the posters of frodo reading under a tree in my school library for a long time before the movie actually came out
Do you know in what capacity he was offered a job?
@@nicknewman7848 likely as one of the _many_ background actors
@@qhu3878 I almost applied at the time. I remember the notices. I was 19. Gutted I didn't but was preoccupied with other things and couldn't justify the time.
"Bakshi would release his first family friendly movie: Wizards."
I hope my monitor survives that spit take you made me do.
LOL, it was the 70s. "Family friendly" was a lot more...morally flexible...than it is today.
@@d.r.bartlette3431 yeah like Watership Down was seen as a kids movie when it came out.
@@d.r.bartlette3431 This is really how fast and educated "parenting" became under our pop culture regime between 65 and 85, say. I still cant believe the records our folks bought us and we listened to at 8yrs old in 1976. Kiss "Destroyer" on Seal&Krofts Kiddie TV? Alice Cooper's "Love It To Death"!? I watched the Exorcist with my mother at 8yrs old! This pop culture tsunami that started with fm rock music in and then cable tv in the mid 70s wud create on one hand the evangelical xtian reagan backlash and on the other a sophisticated secular appreciation for parenting . As wealth grows, and by wealth I mean health and educational attainment, childhood gets longer. I cant imagine listening to "Meet Michelle in the Ladies Room/4 my money, u cant be too soon" by Kiss with my 8yr old or watching the Exorcist with my 9yr old daughter, but the pop tsunami came up so quick it drowned our politics in pop.
I know the famous "Family Picture" phrase isn't something Bakshi actually said, but he did say in the Wizards commentary, "this is my first kids film, my family film." God knows what he thinks a film meant for toddlers looks like.
@@LadyTylerBioRodriguez "No blood? No titties? What is this, a film for babies!?"
"Mr. Bakshi, it's a period drama..."
"It's lame, that's what it fuckin' is!"
"Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien" is canon now.
that phrase automatically makes Def Leppard's "Rock of Ages" play in my head.
My favorite part of this movie is a scene where Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are running, and Aragorn trips over his scabbard and falls on his face, in glorious slow-motion. Not only did they film the actor doing this, they consciously used that take, decided to play it back in slow-motion, and painstakingly rotoscoped every frame. And if you don't know it's coming, it goes by so quick that you don't even realize it's happened. It's fantastic.
I love that scene, too. It's a very efficient way to convey how brutal and exhausting this chase is.
The rotoscope artist broke a toe in that scene
I basically agree with all the takes in this video - while also acknowledging that the inconsistency was what made me LOVE it as a child. It mirrored my imagination; constantly patchwork, never in the same style, unendingly weird, frequently featuring splashes of horror, oftentimes drenched in mountainous nature, awkward at times and beautiful at others. I watch it every Fall with my new favourite animated piece, Over the Garden Wall. I love seeing how my understanding and viewing of stories and visuals changed.
Oh, don't even say 'Over The Garden Wall' to me, or I'll have to go and rewatch it again
@@martintoder2701
_led throughout the mist_
_by the milklight of moon_
_all that was lost is revealed_
My Dad, being a huge nerd in school, rented this when I was about 8, and I distinctly remember the Weathertop scene.
I’d never come across rotoscoping before, and the fluid, realistic design and movement of the Nazgul against the rather cheesy and cartoonish animation of the Hobbits kept me up at night for at least a week, and my Dad was immediately banned from choosing what film we rented for at least a decade.
This is the kind of dad I strive to be.
Bakshi's movie was actually my first encounter with "The Lord of the Rings"--I saw it with my mom on original release--and, yeah, it's wildly uneven, laughable in spots and just peters out at the end. I do think that just as Rankin-Bass accidentally capitalized on Bakshi's story remaining unfinished, the Bakshi movie was itself capitalizing on the existence of the Rankin-Bass TV "Hobbit", which was widely enjoyed. I definitely saw it as a sequel to that.
But... Bakshi's version of Aragorn's first appearance at the Prancing Pony is forever how I'm going to imagine that scene. I think you're right that he actually does best with some of the quieter character moments in the story.
Good point, it seems like Gandalf and the hobbits are pretty closely based on the Rankin-Bass designs from the Hobbit.
@@LordJagd Bakshi did make the hobbits a bit less big-headed chibi than Rankin-Bass did. But there's some commonality there.
Despite the inconsistency, something about the slow, sickly green ring wraiths slowly advancing towards a more traditionally animated Frodo really works for me
the wraiths in general really work I think, if only in short burst
The film is a mixed-media extravaganza...those background paintings always get me!
Once one accepts that 25% of the film is whack-a-doodled on cocaine, then the rest of it can be appreciated for the gem that it was :)
I think the mixed media formats could have reeeeally helped the film express more about the nature and intensity of the conflict(s) throughout the movie, had they been done right. Just like the wraiths against Frodo--that scene shows powerful, disjointed, stylistically different images that bother you. Something doesn't belong--it's clearly the Ringwraiths, the undead, evil, pursuing sub-villians. Or is it Frodo who's unnatural, with his illustration accentuating him as the hero when surrounded by Wraiths? The differences in the animation styles hammer in the unnaturalness the Wraiths, and cements just how vastly different they and Frodo are.
I LOVE that crap.
@@mariecarie1 I wholeheartedly agree with your reading, I'm a big fan of using the medium itself to convey when something's just "off", so the idea of subtly showing that the ringwraiths are an unnatural part of the real world just as Frodo is an unnatural part of theirs, is really appealing to me.
Though I can't quite stop myself from thinking about the Witchking's promise to make Frodo one of them and going "Oh no! He's going to un-cartoon him!" xD
@@RustBot42 😂😂
This could almost be considered a blueprint example for aspiring TH-camrs of what a REALLY fucking good video expose can and should look, flow and play out like!! Hats off to you for your exceptional efforts here!
"His first family friendly feature, Wizards"
Well, about as family friendly as Bakshi can get.
*remembering the blood and chunks flying out of Elenor's father as Necron 99 guns him down*
Sounds legit...
I think to remember that Bakshi himself in a commentary called it "a family picture" (which a certain other critic than made into a catchphrase).
It was the 70s.
Rated PG.
@@sagecolvard9644 so was Jaws. back then I don't think PG-13 actually existed
"Peter Jackson, the Guy who makes perverted puppet movies"
As a New Zealander, I am happy that his early work is credited as such.
I still think Bad Taste is his best movie
It's a mess, but I am still fond of "Meet the Feebles." I giggle at how few of my fellow Americans are familiar with Jackson's work before LOTR.
@@argentpuck I loved Bad Taste and Heavenly Creatures, and I think the wide gulf between those movies is what made me really interested in what he would do Lord of the Rings.
Dead alive was my favorite of his early work. As a horror fan it was a must. Still one of the craziest, goriest movies I've seen that wasn't Italian.
Meet the feebles!! Meet the feebles!! \o/ Where else can you see a Walrus banging a cat? :D
My favorite position on the do-Balrogs-have-wings question is that balrogs are how Melkor discovered he couldn't create flying creatures. I don't know if that's a sensible reason for them to have vestigial wings, but I like it.
But... he created dragons?
@@juliamavroidi8601 I read someone responding to an argument from someone else, so it's something like a third-hand argument against balrogs having wings. It was probably more coherent firsthand.
@@juliamavroidi8601 The first dragons Morgoth made were without wings. I.E Glaurung the first dragon was actually killed by being stabbed in the belly. No flying there. Smaug and other Flying dragons didn't come until later.
@@siliril True, though after that, Morgoth created Ancalagon the Black, the greatest dragon of Middle Earth, and Ancalagon did have wings, which he used to fight Earendil and his flying ship.
@@juliamavroidi8601 maybe he can't "conssistently" create flying creatures
VERY well made. Great documentary. Was not expecting so much depth! And also, "Gandaff".
The lesson of the video: If you want to adapt Lord of the Rings, you have to make perverted movies in a medium usually associated with children's entertainment first.
Does that mean Zone Toons is going to make the next LOTR movie?
@@MackenzieChandlerDunnavant You joke but a lot of anime directors got their start in porn
Wait does this apply to Peter Jackson too? Isn't his former genre the kind of slapstick horror that Sam Raimi popularized? I think I need to see Reanimator now.
@@LimeyLassen I would watch a LOTR anime.
@@romxxii He also made Meet The Feebles, which is a really raunchy puppet movie.
56:19 "The absolute banger 'Where there's Whip There is a Way'." Of this I am in full agreement. It is the most memorable part of that film.
Where There's A Whip is AMAZING, but Down Down to Goblin Town absolutely rocks my fucking bod
@@renfineout5350 Yes, but that is from the Rankin-Bass Hobbit, not the Return of the King.
I really adore how unnatural the ringwraiths and orcs look when they're using the painted-over rotoscoping look. They were really onto something with that idea, even if it didn't fully work out.
i'd recommend checking out hylics, an indie rpg made with a similar process, albeit with claymation than live action, which takes a lot from surrealism, dada, and other such things. the unnerving out of place quality of the especially harsh scenes seem like presaging for the otherworldly aesthetic of hylics
Those elements have always had a really scary, almost horror feel to me. I've always found it really effective, not sure if it was intentional though.
Based opinion
@@westmoorefilms305 You spelled "baste" incorrectly. Anyway, I'm still not getting your message. "Baste Opinion?" Are you suggesting that we soak our opinions with juice as we cook them?
Yeah, me too. It looks so creepy and atmospheric; the painting-over method makes it feel weirdly unmoored from time, like a lost film from the 1910s that somehow has a soundtrack.
Never seen you before, but I do watch a lot of video essays. I’m glad you found yourself on my recommended page, this was interesting.
I very distinctly remember TH-cam’s original layout, and sometimes I wish- even just for one day- they’d go back to it just to highlight how much it’s changed. Like, remember when the front page was just a search bar? Or when people had youtube-style Halloween costumes? Wild
I’m remembering now that Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings was the first time I consciously noticed rotoscoping. It was the film that made me fall in love with the technique, I find it so visually interesting. But also the way it’s used in LotR is so obvious, my appreciation for it feels like an inverse on why people hate autotune. I like sincere rotoscoping, like what was used in Snow White, but I also like stylistic rotoscoping, I like it as a medium in and of itself.
I owe all of that nonsense to the mess that is Bakshi’s film lol.
For me it was catching moments from some film about dreams on late-night TV; the dream scenes were all rotoscoped but each one in its own style with a different animator kinda like those “re-animation” projects. But yeah I have always been in love with the look. Never had the patience to do it on my own videos though; but haven’t tried as an adult tbf.
For me it was A Scanner Darkly
You might like joel haver's animated skits then. Thry are vrry reminiscent of Bakshi rotoscope work.
Shows the, “You bow to no one” line for like 3 seconds. Tears up instantaneously.
I know, right?
I skipped past this part of the vid. It's too early for these feels
"I can't carry it for you..."
Every dang time.
yep, and yep to both.
If there was one thing Bakshi got spectacularly wrong...it was Sam Gamgee. This character, so beautifully realized by Sean Astin in the Peter Jackson movies, this simple, honest man who rose to great heroism purely out of loyalty and love and quiet strength, this wonderful character whose defining moment ("...but I can carry you!") made him the real hero of LOTR...was reduced to goofy, Saturday-morning-cartoon comic relief in Bakshi's hands.
Well one could argue that there was intended to be character development for Sam in the never-made second part of Bakshi's adaptation. Plus you can start to see hints of growth in how he behaves and acts in what we did get towards the end of the film. I think it's a bit disingenuous to bring up the scene you mentioned to compare the two films when Bakshi's version never got a chance to even get to that part in the story.