Haha, I was thinking if I ended up getting pulled over (on a straight road in the middle of no where), I could probably intrigue them enough with the data that they'd let me go. But maybe not everyone thinks it's all that cool haha.
Engineering Explained Just use the "It's for science" excuse. Then proceed to teach them about their tires and how they should think more before buying them.
Lots of questions/comments about the intercooler. Yes, the intercooler will help bring temps down after the supercharger compresses the air, however starting with colder air means the air entering the intercooler will be colder, and thus the air exiting the intercooler will be colder as well. Edit - Additional note: The air temps are generally high because the air is heated by the radiator prior to being drawn in. I assumed there would be a bit more "fresh" air than there actually is. When I started driving (before the thermostat had cracked, meaning there was no coolant flow to the radiator) the intake temps remained nearly the same at the front and back of the intake versus ambient. As the engine warmed up and the radiator cracked, temperatures started to rise. This implies that the proper solution would be to have the intake pull air that has not passed through the radiator, whether that means moving the intake forward, or creating a box around it that pulls in air from the front. Looking back, I don't think a heat shield would do all that much for intake temps. Perhaps a small benefit for the back of the intake closest to the exhaust. And if anyone's interested in going back to the Acura Integra days, I have a video testing if cold air intakes actually work: th-cam.com/video/llKZdUyoz14/w-d-xo.html If you want to know the science behind why they work, here's a video on the math: th-cam.com/video/Hiod1c2Py70/w-d-xo.html
Can you slip the probe under silicon coupler into the intake track at filter, before and after intercooler (and control on bumper)? Then monitor how the intercooler handles differences in intake temp. Supercharger will increase air temp by around 7.5*C per psi. Intercooler can’t drop temp below ambient anyway. So if ambient is 20, intake at filter is 40, intercooler inlet is 85 and intercooler outlet is 50 and 60 after intake manifold heats. Can you gain much hp by dropping intake at filter to 30? Probably not. But it’s a fun project. Heat shield would look cool. And maybe one of those J’s Racing hoods with vents and bump for intake scoop in J’s Racing bumper.
you also get hot air from the radiator thus its probably best to reroute the air intake, also if located properly you could get some ramair charging effect
Have you considered wrapping the exhaust manifold in that DEI wrap? I know it greatly reduced underhand temps on my old second gen xb after installing an aftermarket exhaust manifold. Might be worth a shot!
I would love to build a heat shield for the car and see what it does to these numbers. Then dyno with and with out the shield just to see if it REALLY matters. It matters in theory but will real world numbers show that too?
It’s a great question! And looking back, I think it’s more important to find a way to draw air that hasn’t passed through the radiator (like how stock airboxes pull from the front). But yeah, would be interesting to test!
I believe the rule of thumb is every 10C is 5%. that's the rule for aircraft engines, should be close for cars as well. Should build a duct around the rad to funnel air directly onto the filter, like a stock Subaru air box.
Jason and Charles, you surprise me. After the difference of the heat wrap on the white wookie build for intake temps, even if it didn't make a discernible "butt dyno" difference, I'd think you'd for sure want to heat protect that air filter...but then again, the white wookie had much higher temps, and it didn't seem to make a performance difference. On further thought, I can see how you too might guess that it wouldn't make a difference. I've tested intake temperature changes extensively if anyone wants to check it out. A lot of my testing is off camera and I share the results. I screen shot my live data along the way to "prove" the testing.
Great comment Paul. Every 10C is 5% of what though? I'm guessing power, but I didn't want to assume. I've seen Mitsubishi, Toyota, Chevy, all have air rams on this model or that, which is cool for cold air, you'd think, but then they usually have a huge resonator on the air intake hang close to the exhaust or something. I really think most "cold air intakes" are fake. Most of the time I believe they're legit, it's over when I have to take the intake off for a repair and I can see how a bunch of hot air is engineered in again. Maybe I'm too hard on them, maybe it needs to be tested if air resonator tubes near heat sources really impact cold air efficiency. (1 example of many cold air intakes being "faked")
The rpm increase at higher speeds negates the wear and tear saved from a cooler engine. That , and engines are optimally efficient when they are hot, just the air going in needs to be cooled
mike tong one would have to wonder though, after a long spirited driving session that piece of metal would turn into a radiator of sorts because it doesn't reflect Heat constantly, eventually everything under the hood will get hot so by routing the air intake piping out of the engine bay area he will always get the coldest air
I've seen Formula SAE simply sandwich fiberglass cloth/mesh between two pieces of metal to act as heat shields. My 09 Hyundai has a manifold heat shield like that and it really works, I can touch it without even a hint of getting burned. My old Nissan's simple stamped-steel one might as well be a skillet 🤣
Yeah. New cars put shielding on about everything sometimes. Chevy and Ford went nuts with it on their sedans. I think a little more on their trucks. I think they're working on better sensor long term reliability as well.
The moment I see this open air intake in Jason's supercharging the s2000 video, I was like did they really left this intake like this? I couldn't believe it. And I recently come across this video which proved my point.
I remember back around 2001 there was a shop selling a "cold air" intake that was piped from the throttle body to the front air inlet in the bumper resembling an intercooler. All these years I have always remained curious about the design and your video has reawoken that curiosity.
I would love for you to continue this series (measuring temps and trying to perhaps lower intake temps)!! Also perhaps try temp reading in the OEM air box and the OEM air box + snorkel if that's feasible in your SC setup. I've considered the snorkel but wondered how effective it is. It would also be cool if you did some comparative 2nd gear pulls - say 30-60 (or redline) with temp readings and then if you think you develop a better (cooler) Intake setup do the same 30-60 2nd gear pull (i'm suggesting a second gear pull only to eliminate the 1-2 shift or any other shift as a variable in the acceleration times). Thanks for another great video!! Keep em coming!!
Thanks for being scientific about the cold-air intake myth. Ive tried to explain this for years to my buddies who think taking the factory airbox off (alone) makes them faster. No, it makes it louder which FEELS faster, and draws hot air from the exhaust manifold.
If you end up going OEM style and sucking the air from the side of the fender, do a dyno test before and after the change to see how much "hot air intake" looses in actual HP.
It's great to see some actual data about this topic! Oh, belated appreciation for the the dyno and road comparisons about the supercharger in previous videos.
Man I love S2000's. The day I own one is the day I become extremely happy. Would you ever consider uploading a video entirely dedicated to just a cruise in the S2000? Some pulls here and there; hearing that sweet sweet vtec crossover.
This was a good experiment. I did something similar about 5 years ago with my 2500HD truck. I have a ScanGauge II hooked up to my OBDII port and mounted above my rearview mirror. After swapping out the stock air cleaner box with a K&N FIPK, I noticed the difference between the outside temperature and IAT while cruising on the highway was 20-35 degrees Fahrenheit on a mild summer day. When the IAT jumped to 100+ degrees (i.e. city driving, stop-and-go traffic), the performance dropped significantly (as expected) so I decided to wrap my “hot air intake” heat shield with heat wrap and installed an Volant air scoop with Lowes downspout flexible tubing which directed air from the tow hook opening in the front valence up behind the headlight and pointed it directly at the cone air filter. Using this method, I now see about 7 degrees F difference consistently between outside air temperature and IAT during a typical summer day. Instead of relocating the intake, maybe you can use a similar approach.
This explains why a PO of my Turbo Supra fashioned a cold-air intake "box" using a mid-eighties Nissan turbo intake atop the engine hood and some sheet metal around the intake. It looks cool, if also a bit tacky, now I know that it probably works. Sweet. Thanks.
I'm glad you put a nail in the myth of "cold air" intakes that aren't. lol What is needed is a plenum that routs the air in the front of the car right to the air cleaner. Oh, yea just like the stock setup. lol Thanks!
Ive found mimiking Hondas factoy intake setup, is the best way to get any form of "gains" from intalling an aftermarket intake. Honda goes through very meticulus process to make sure the best airflow goes into their engines. Usually the best place to put it is where the original baffling was.
Some time ago i had a ford escort. There was a strip of plastic that added about 2 inches below the radiator, as stretched the width of the radiator. It was held in place with 2 plastic fasteners, one of which broke, causing the strip to hang from one side of the car, and drag on the street. i took the piece intending to get it replaced by the dealer. It didn't cause any problems while driving around the city, but when on the highway, the engine started to overheat. I pulled over and replaced the plastic strip, fastening it back with another fastener from the trunk, which was pretty much the same as the piece that has been still holding the strip in place. Returned to the highway, and the overheating stopped. My thought is that without the strip, there was enough buffeting air to interfere with the flow through the radiator at highway speeds to keep the radiator from properly cooling the car. Since the air flowing through the radiator is being heated, i would imagine most of the air in the engine compartment would be substantially warmer than ambient air. So would expect that the air entering the supercharger might be warmer than you expected. Of course the lesson i learned is that strips of plastic hanging under a car engine that seem superfluous might be there for a good reason.
Great video! Straight to the point, and driven by data, not opinion. Other "experimenters" looking to perform a similar test would most likely do it stationary, maybe with a fan to simulate airflow, all in the name of consistency and control over variables, but I def. prefer how you did it here. Actual real-world testing with real-world results.
In the stone age of aircraft engine development engineers used blast tubes (usually corrugated metal - not unlike clothes dryer exhaust ducts) to direct ambient air (aft of the props...) to cool engine components, typically generators/alternators. It seems to me this would be the cheapest (by far) and most effective way to route ambient air to the intake. Facing the front of the engine: A 50-100 mm h X max open grill width terminated on one or both sides with outlet(s) sized to fit corrugated aluminum flex duct. Route as necessary and terminate at the intake with a 50 mm clearance around the filter. For more fun with t-cups measure the before and after temps at the intake manifold as well. Back of envelope calculations show a possible .75-1.5% increase in HP. Thanks for the excellent video!
When i installed my SC i notice the same problem my fast solution was re install the CAI from spoon that attaches to the original air box. The temperature decreased 10°C in the same conditions. You should test it with thoose TC's to see the real difference because i compared only with ambient temperature and the original IAT. All the best keep up ;)
It would be great to see a follow-up video on the theoretical power differences depending on intake air temp and then compare actual figures before and after CAI mod. Awesome stuff as always!
i did that with my 2003 expedition. aftermarket CAI with no heatshield. I used a scan tool to monitor air intake temperature (reading the MAF) and i have a temp gage on the front grill. I noted a significant difference between ambient and intake temps. Then i build a heat shield from a plastic trash can sourced from Home Depot (no kidding). scavenged some weather stripping from a junk yard to form a seal around the open top of the can (the can was laid out horizontally with the intake tube coming in through the bottom of the can). The hood insulation closed off the box. The only open area was directly in front toward the various openings along the radiator, light fixture, and down below. I re-scaned temps at highway speed and noticed that my intake temps were almost exactly the same as ambient. At idle, intake was warmer, but not like it was without the can. So getting a CAI aftermarket with a 'box' is better than just an open intake, at least from my limited experiments.
Man, I love your videos and how you easily explain stuff. I'm from Brazil, and since not everyone around here speaks English, it's a shame that I can't share the videos with most of my friends. Wouldn't you be interested in me making some Portuguese subtitles for you? I believe you would have a lot of subscribers from here if more people could understand your videos. BTW, I'm also a mechanical engineer and gearhead!
You could always take a tip from the NHRA Pro Stock guys and add a snorkel scoop! Your vehicle's overall height may increase slightly, but underhood temperatures should drop dramatically.
A very simple and effective solution is to place in front of the radiator and behind the bumper (at the ambient temp. thermocouple), a flexible aluminum duct all the way to the filter. 7-8cm diameter is more than enough. You can also paint it black.
That filter is already very close to an ideal cold air source, that hole in the inner fender. Just extend the intake hose so filter resides in that semi round fender opening. This avoids the hydrolock pitfalls of locating intake in grill area, yet still provides much cooler air.
Bro !!!! one of the best videos yet. Try a heat shield, then a heat shield with gold tape(see if that myth works), and for the finally a fenderwell intake. I would love to see the results. I look forward to your next video
Another great video! I wonder if there would be a significant difference if you put the thermocouple inside the air filter so that you're just measuring the air coming in, rather than possible radiant heat hitting those sensors and skewing your results.
Cool video, cool report. Love the thermocouple/digital meter hook up, all action recorded by the GoPros; however, one constructive criticism: you should be able to connect all those inputs to a laptop while keeping your eyes on the road. I know, I know, you are in the middle of nowhere, so far away from everyday traffic, I am pretty sure so far out, mosquitos don’t go there no more . But with a laptop you can examine the info afterwards while enjoying a cup of your favorite fresh brew. You are an engineer, and I don’t want to come across as a Star Trek “Too many captains, not enough engineers” type of commentator. No texting and driving, no thermocoupling and driving :) Again, thanks for the video. Be safe and be blessed!
Of course it is... checkout all the Nuclear power stations that use Fahrenheit to measure coolant temperatures...... Oh wait...... Even US Power stations use C.
i love me some hot air intakes, best way to maximize the decrease in air density. The effect of a heat shield should be easiest to test, just tape in some cardboard behind the intake as a temporary air box/wall. Testing a relocation would cost more, but I am interested in seeing how both affect the IAT, so if you're willing to try. I will certainly watch.
The hardest for hood modification wise doing an intake opening and air box under the right side of the hood would be the easiest for running an air tube. Otherwise you have to go under and around the radiator and intercooler, etc. Not sure if you even like that look but it just seemed the most simple solution.
Prop the back of the hood up a inch and watch the temps level out.. a rear facing vent "scoop" etc makes a big difference. I remember drag racing my maverick and having the fans on vrs fans off was about 2 10th of a second difference just food for thought
can anyone even hear the supercharger? i'm not sure if you're getting much power gain if your honda doesn't sound like a leaf blower keep up the great vids!
Although the sound is important for the power gained the optic is even more important. I don't see any racing stripes on the car so that's a lot of wasted power right there...
A heat shield surrounding the intake and a cold air route from in front of the radiator to the filter encasement makes about a 50° difference (farenheit) as measured on my old cd5 accord. The flexible metal tubing at autozone and some sheet metal screws and hose clamps makes for a $25 fix on a cold air route. The heat shield can be bought for a not small price, or if youre handy with sheet aluminum, a press brake, drill, and rivets you can do one up for like $30 (cost of tools not included). The temp difference can be extreme for under $100 and a weekend of measuring and fitting. This solution is based on wanting the top end of a short intake, while getting the cold air of a longer intake tube: essentially, the best of both worlds. Im not a fan of cold air intakes on high revving engines as the longer intake tube promotes more of a torque increase instead of a horsepower increase. Just my $.02
It could be interesting to introduce a cooling plate as a variable here. Something like the AUT cooling plate that is the designed to pull fresh air in from the front of the S2000, and channel it into the stock intake. Since the filter is sitting right near where the stock air box did, it could have a meaningful impact.
I think the thermocouple on the rear of the intake air filter is probably reading radiant heat from the engine and manifolds rather than strictly the intake air temperature acquired through air convection past the thermocouple. Which is to say that your heat shield should help reduce the heat, but if you're going to spend time and effort on it, then consider doing something like Subaru does with their turbos and put the air filter into a pod that matches up with the hood. Cut a louvered grill pattern into the hood and deal with routing rainwater out of the pod. You might gain a PSI with a bit of ram air at the front of the hood, as well.
I think it's cool that you're taking a scientific approach, instead of just making assumptions. I look forward to seeing your solution to the "hot air intake" problem.
I have a 2016 Mustang GT and it will monitor intake temperatures. I was looking at this a bit today on my drive home. The in car thermometer stated 85F ambient temp. While not moving in traffic the intake temp would go to 135F. Once moving for a bit the temp would go down to 93F at minimum. I have the Ford Performance cold air intake that does route ambient air through the front grill to the air box.
I have a similar setup and i measure intake temps post intercooler. When the car is moving at freeway speeds the temperature is 10 to 20 Celsius above ambient. At the track when the car is waiting in line the post intercooler intake temperatures can reach 50°C above ambient!! The engine bay keeps the heat in and even the intercooler fluid gets hot without air blowing across the intercooler. In a way they become inter heaters if the car is parked for too long.
On my data logs, a cold air intake gets about 3 degrees above ambient temperature under load. The stock box, under load, is about 10-15 degrees above ambient. The HOT air intake is about 20 degrees warmer than ambient under full load sounds about right. I'm surprised you are not data logging from the ECU, especially after getting tuning software. Much easier to data log.
He'd still need a thermocouple for the control and finding out where there are differences. Just data logging IAT would work i guess if you had all the different intakes and wanted to test between them.
Interesting test. I think the real take away here is, even with a box style intake, the placement and effect of the rear end of the intake tube is what really makes a difference.
Remember that locating the thermocouples in the filter's webbing will give a significant windchill factor aswell since the air passing through is moving a lot faster than the air at the front of the car or the static on the engine. Where the actual filter is makes little difference. It needs a cool air feed from somewhere so you can place the filter at the front then heat porrf/shielded pipe to the intake or you can feed that pipe to the location you have and box the filter in something as heat proof as possible. A bit awkward on an S2K because it's quite small in there. There used to be front clips available with various intake designs but I would say a small hood scoop right at the front lip may work well. It could feed a good sized airbox with the filter inside and it would not only be cool air but would also have a minor supercharging effect so making life even easier for the charger. I would heat wrap or coat the manifold and downpipe anyway though because less temp in the engine bay is always nice when boost is involved.
Nice video . Try to cordon off the air intake with a shield ...similar to the ones sold by k&n . Also place an air scoop/funnel inside the grill and direct the cold air with a hose from inside the bumper and into the cordoned off space. ( something similar to a cold air intake) . I am from India and the disadvantage of running a cold air intake is during rainy seasons , there are high chances of water ingress which can cause hydrostatic lock . With the setup i've mentioned earlier , you can get a cold air feed and at the same time a much lesser chance of water ingress.
Awesome experiment!!!!!! Us with the kraftwerks kit, we have our intake face the driver's side. Which is behind the fans from the radiator that blow hot air.. so we've been debating if the passenger side like your is better
It seems like some people think that colder air doesn’t really help a supercharger/intercooler setup. But since a supercharger (be it roots type or centrifugal) has a fixed rotating speed for any given RPM, it effectively ingest a fixed amount of air for any given RPM. If this air is hotter in the first place, it is less dense and thus contains less oxygen molecules. However efficient your intercooler is, the system ingested less oxygen molecules, and power potential is reduced. Modern turbochargers on the other hand often compensate hotter/lower density air sensed by the MAF by letting the turbine spool faster ans thus produce more pressure. Superchargers can’t do that.
I was surprised by your findings! I've got a 92 Civic Si, mostly stock but with a K&N cone filter hanging out in the engine compartment. On really cold days I can feel a difference in power vs more temperate days. I had assumed that at freeway speeds the under-hood temps would be much lower than you found. This time of year I spend a lot of time in traffic with the A/C running, which should really push up under-hood temps. I'm now contemplating an air box of some sort to bring in colder outside air. I would be interested in a comparison as Humblemechanic suggested.
I have a k&n fipk on my 05 gmc canyon 3.5L, it's kinda like yours, but a longer tube (much bigger engine bay, and tube routes over the head) and has the heat sheild. Using a scan tool (an Ultra Gauge display) i can track intake temps via the pcm and the maf. So many people hate those intakes, calling them Hot Air Intakes, but while driving, the intake air temps dont go much higher than about 5-10°F over ambient. Of course, low speed or parked, it'll cook.
Back when I was 18 going to school to be a MECHANIC I ENGINEERED a cold air intake out of PVC pipe. The intake worked great and costed very little. The short ram intake kits you can buy for cheap are junk. Get a cold air intake (which most modern cars have from the factory) or do not mod it at all.
I was very glad to see you do this video. Turned out about how I expected. But now my suspicions are confirmed. This is why I am still running my factory air intake. I would like to know if more (volume) hotter air still = more power over stock restricted intake.
Hey,EE. I think the video isnt quite complete since you didn't talk about how air density changes as a function of temperature. I agree those temperature differences were greater than my expectations, Though I think talking about the change in air density would help give perspective to your data. Love your vids!
It doesn’t look like you’ve got that much clearance to relocate it down to me, but I don’t have my hands in the engine bay. If you can, I’d love to see you do it, but due to the space you have I support the heat shield!
That what I missed about the old Comptech S/C setup, the kit provided you with an air box that shielded the filter from the engine heat without the need to route the filter to the bottom because it had a duct you can use to channel cold air into the box.
BRILLIANT VIDEO Jason! I have wanted to do this for YEARS! If you look at the reduction in air mass due to the temperature (simplified assuming intake is purely volumetric), using Charles' law it's still 290K/320K = about -10% theoretically weaker mixture than it need be. Wouldn't it be great if you could actually get enough air to EXPAND and thereby cool below ambient temperature and nevertheless fill the compressor at atmospheric pressure. NACA oversized intake and insulated expansion chamber?! Your compressor will be heating up the air further, so IMHO you still need to measure the air temp. after the compressor. What do you think? All the best Rob in Switzerland.
Yep, I see guys online installing "hot" intakes all the time. The high flow filter will help compared to stock, but true cold air intakes would work much better.
RE: "Need" for hot air. Had an '86 Dodge D50 with carb. Decided that the arm air stove off the exhaust manifold was bad because coer air is better, right? It was fine in Texas but when I fiannly came home to the Great Northwest, temps were lower and the carb would ice up. OOPS! Fortunately I still had all of the parts and put it back together. Yeah, they put that stuff on there for a reason, just like intake air comes from the outside from the factory. So my take-away from this is that sometimes you need warm air, but in modern engines cool is what the really cool kids do. Now I prefer diesels so you can keep your silly spark plugs and carbs. :)
Ideas: Compare the intake air temp sensor (the one used by the ECU located in your intake piping or manifold) to the ambient temps. With the intercooler, your hot air intake might not matter. If it's still more than a little bit above ambient you should be able to significantly lower intake temps by just adding a heat shield (ideally with an air gap) behind the air filter. You could also trim the front hood insulation to give the air a path into the engine bay.
The intake is behind the radiator in the airflow path, it's a hot air intake. Anything behind the radiator should be considered "hot" relative to ambient just due to the fact that now airflow is cut significantly while having a heat shield is good and will help, moving the filter into a position of direct airflow will result in much cooler temps, always remember that the bumper and most of the front of the car are meant to cut through the air and direct it to the radiator.
The location of the air intake in relation to the radiator will also be responsible for the high temperature differential you measured. Even while driving, the cool air will pick up heat as it passes through the radiator. An enclosed air box with piping closer to the front of the vehicle, or relocating the filter will have a greater effect than just adding an exhaust heat shield to the existing setup.
It would have been nice to seen one of the thermocouplers inside the air filter.... take off filter, place probe in the middle of the inlet hose and put the filter back on the tube. You can take an average of the temps on front/rear of the filter but you will not be sure what the blend ratio between front/rear of the filter will be; a probe down the throat of the beast will be the sure way to tell. I vote to extend the intake tube and place the filter in the front bumper area (if you can plumb it there).
Add a thermocouple just after radiator and compare it to the engine bay and intake air temps. You'll find that the radiator out temp is quite close to the engine bay temp. The air flow flushes the hot air around the exhaust manifold to the back of the engine bay and it shouldn't be an issue in this case. The heat shield would eliminate the IR radiation load, however it shouldn't be significant compared to the heat load through the radiator..
Something to consider, that additional piping will decrease your pressure by way of Bernoulli principal. It appears to me, the best you should do is construct shrouding to block the rest of your engine from your filter.
I have a hot air intake now (just haven't been able to figure out how to get the intake out front...) and this is a really big difference. I am definitely going to try harder. Basically 20-30F difference depending on speeds is "free hp" if you can get ambient air in there, especially if you are heating that air up with a supercharger.
I suggest another remedy: heat shield on the back of the filter and carefully designed ducting from the front air dam up to the filter's location, like many trackers/auto-x'ers do with their brakes to keep their temps in check.
The concept is simple. No matter what process is happening in your intake, cooler air is better and will make more power. Take a cup of room temp water and a cup of hot water and put it in the fridge for 15 minutes. They both go through the same process, but one will come out cooler than the other because it started cooler than the other. Also interesting that people will not argue that cold weather makes more power, but also assume pulling cooler air does nothing when it's going through a compressor. Granted it might not be worth the extra $300 for an intake with a box/heatshield to get 5-10hp, but the power gains and efficiency improvements will be there.
You should also use the thermo couples to verify the efficiency of the intercooler (ambient, after air filter, before intercooler, after intercooler) I've done it in the past with one of my cars, ended up, replacing the intercooler, re-routing some piping and using heat shields.
Since you have a supercharged engine, I think it would be interesting to measure also the temperature at the intake manifold, before and after any mods :)
The ambient sensor is usually near the front intake ,so it seems to be a large difference to the sensors you have installed. The filter and intake tube where it is installed is very subject to heat soaks I would suggest the air intake temp sensor would be very affected and would be giving the ECU wildly high intake temp readings .. Obviously move the filter closer to the front intake and more importantly, move the sensor closer to the filter to represent the actual intake air temps
A hood scoop helps to direct cooler air maybe a funnel with heat shielding could direct cooler air. I say a funnel because piping air directly from exterior could allow water to reach the filter wile funneling cooler air into engine bay near the filter will prevent water contamination.✌
This is good, but what is more important is logging your IAT’s via your obd port. I’m told that above 40c iat can inhibit a higher chance of knock in your engine. I’m guessing the climate you’re in is far nicer then the UK so may be worth investigating. I have some data i have logged with my VQ35DE pre and post larger intercooler if you want to have a peek. If your tuner says IAT temps is not an issue for you then getting cooler intake temps is likely to result in a boost in peak performance, even without map re-calibration 👍🏽
As i see it theres a third option you missed, Option 1, move the intake to where cooler air is, I can see the sense in that, assuming you keep it safe from rain etc, having a ducted box would work... but see also 3. Option 2, sheild it from heat, doesnt make as much sense to me as per your radiation vs convection discussion, it may be subject to radiation heat and youd potentially be limiting the flow of cooler air into that space... Thus option 3, attempt to vent out the hot air out of that space, such as with a small rear facing vent over the pod, or the old racers trick of putting a couple of washers in the back of the bonnet hinges.
Now it's time to make a heat shield and measure it again :) Good test. I've noticed in my car, that in summer air intake temps on highway at 140-150km/h are at 55*C. That's quite bad. Fortunately, that's N/A 2,5l V6 producing 160hp, so it's not really stressed engine.
Interesting video, thanks for producing it and sharing your findings. I think it would be very interesting to add aditional data to this: Intake manifold is being heated by the coolant in s2000 and it also doesn't have thermo insulation from the engine block. Because of these reasons the manifold can get quite hot and there are opinions that intake air will be heated by it. So it would be interesting to add another data point in this experiment - IAT from ECU. In this case we could see what sort of temperatures ECU is using when calculating the amount of fuel. Also, there is a consensus that 3C degree colder IAT should increase horespower by about 1%.
I definitely think you need to get cooler intake air. But make sure it fairly high up and doesn’t get any water into it from heavy rain or worse driving through a puddle of water that’s deeper than it looked. That Honda is already pretty low to the ground as it is. I don’t want to see a motor grenade by hydraulic lock. ErictheCarGuy had a piston cracked by hydraulic lock with gasoline. An accident with a fuel pressure regulator set too high. AutoVlog had a brand new Mercedes AMG something-or-other get hydraulic lock going through water not very deep that splashed up under the hood and caused hydraulic lock. Motor ruined. Car totaled. AMG apparently didn’t do good research or design when they modified the engine. It rains a lot in Europe so they better fix it toot sweet. Great video. Interesting data. I’m actually surprised at how high the temperatures were. Even tough I’m an engineer myself, I’d do the conversion to Fahrenheit and list both for the average subscriber. Even I just ballpark it in my head.
Another idea to add is to check the flow of air at the front and back of the intake to get an idea of HOW MUCH air is going in from the “hot” and “cold” side of the intake.
put the intake in place of the one of the fog lights. just replace the lamp itself with a fairly fine metal mesh to protect from debris. you will get the most airflow to the intake, and the coldest ambient temperature from outside
The best solution is an airbox with a snorkel. Like on most standard systems. Putting the intake down low is asking for trouble when it rains, using a ram-air style extension hose is just as risky, cant beat an airbox with snorkel
Tha best way to have cold air and big velocity is by changing to a cai airbox or similar taking air from a small cut of the hood or bumper like mailbox as we say! I've seen results from close on time attack cars and it works! MAILBOX i think is the best Cold and fast air intake -- Heatshield maybe better but traps the heat as well and the 2nd one under the bumper is dangerous of damage or water fill + some long travel !
What would be interesting to see is how fast the engine bay temp drops when you accelerate. Of course, the faster you accel, the faster the temps should drop. The engine doesnt necessarily need that super cool air when idling (but it wouldnt hurt). I think of it kind of like the reverse of your radiator fans. When the car is moving, cool air is hitting radiator. When the car is stationary, the fan kicks in helping to regulate temp....With the supercharger, theres nothing keeping the engine bay temps in check when the car is stationary, but its not a big deal bc peak performance isnt required at idle. Revving the engine in neutral or the start of a drag race would be a situation where the current intake location could cause a problem though. A heat shield is prob a better solution bc the intake is isolated from engine heat and its protected from the elements.
They say don't text and drive, nothing about measuring different temperatures around your car and driving.
Those High tech zip ties though👌
Haha, I was thinking if I ended up getting pulled over (on a straight road in the middle of no where), I could probably intrigue them enough with the data that they'd let me go. But maybe not everyone thinks it's all that cool haha.
Engineering Explained Just use the "It's for science" excuse. Then proceed to teach them about their tires and how they should think more before buying them.
just what I thinking too
Ziptie life!
Anton Zuykov they're even reusable
Lots of questions/comments about the intercooler. Yes, the intercooler will help bring temps down after the supercharger compresses the air, however starting with colder air means the air entering the intercooler will be colder, and thus the air exiting the intercooler will be colder as well.
Edit - Additional note: The air temps are generally high because the air is heated by the radiator prior to being drawn in. I assumed there would be a bit more "fresh" air than there actually is. When I started driving (before the thermostat had cracked, meaning there was no coolant flow to the radiator) the intake temps remained nearly the same at the front and back of the intake versus ambient. As the engine warmed up and the radiator cracked, temperatures started to rise. This implies that the proper solution would be to have the intake pull air that has not passed through the radiator, whether that means moving the intake forward, or creating a box around it that pulls in air from the front. Looking back, I don't think a heat shield would do all that much for intake temps. Perhaps a small benefit for the back of the intake closest to the exhaust.
And if anyone's interested in going back to the Acura Integra days, I have a video testing if cold air intakes actually work: th-cam.com/video/llKZdUyoz14/w-d-xo.html If you want to know the science behind why they work, here's a video on the math: th-cam.com/video/Hiod1c2Py70/w-d-xo.html
Can you slip the probe under silicon coupler into the intake track at filter, before and after intercooler (and control on bumper)? Then monitor how the intercooler handles differences in intake temp. Supercharger will increase air temp by around 7.5*C per psi. Intercooler can’t drop temp below ambient anyway.
So if ambient is 20, intake at filter is 40, intercooler inlet is 85 and intercooler outlet is 50 and 60 after intake manifold heats. Can you gain much hp by dropping intake at filter to 30? Probably not. But it’s a fun project. Heat shield would look cool. And maybe one of those J’s Racing hoods with vents and bump for intake scoop in J’s Racing bumper.
you also get hot air from the radiator thus its probably best to reroute the air intake, also if located properly you could get some ramair charging effect
Have you considered wrapping the exhaust manifold in that DEI wrap? I know it greatly reduced underhand temps on my old second gen xb after installing an aftermarket exhaust manifold. Might be worth a shot!
Engineering Explained
*_ƎE_*
The question is how long I need to return from hard driving temperature to previous test temperature ( 129 kph )
Mix of shield/ducting and exhaust wrap.
I would love to build a heat shield for the car and see what it does to these numbers. Then dyno with and with out the shield just to see if it REALLY matters. It matters in theory but will real world numbers show that too?
It’s a great question! And looking back, I think it’s more important to find a way to draw air that hasn’t passed through the radiator (like how stock airboxes pull from the front). But yeah, would be interesting to test!
Dyno with the hood closed right? Right!
I believe the rule of thumb is every 10C is 5%. that's the rule for aircraft engines, should be close for cars as well. Should build a duct around the rad to funnel air directly onto the filter, like a stock Subaru air box.
Jason and Charles, you surprise me. After the difference of the heat wrap on the white wookie build for intake temps, even if it didn't make a discernible "butt dyno" difference, I'd think you'd for sure want to heat protect that air filter...but then again, the white wookie had much higher temps, and it didn't seem to make a performance difference. On further thought, I can see how you too might guess that it wouldn't make a difference. I've tested intake temperature changes extensively if anyone wants to check it out. A lot of my testing is off camera and I share the results. I screen shot my live data along the way to "prove" the testing.
Great comment Paul. Every 10C is 5% of what though? I'm guessing power, but I didn't want to assume. I've seen Mitsubishi, Toyota, Chevy, all have air rams on this model or that, which is cool for cold air, you'd think, but then they usually have a huge resonator on the air intake hang close to the exhaust or something. I really think most "cold air intakes" are fake. Most of the time I believe they're legit, it's over when I have to take the intake off for a repair and I can see how a bunch of hot air is engineered in again.
Maybe I'm too hard on them, maybe it needs to be tested if air resonator tubes near heat sources really impact cold air efficiency. (1 example of many cold air intakes being "faked")
We learn: The faster you drive the cooler is your engine. So driving fast is more safe.
Good job!
The rpm increase at higher speeds negates the wear and tear saved from a cooler engine. That , and engines are optimally efficient when they are hot, just the air going in needs to be cooled
taydrum/anton, guys hear me out right,,,,, it was a joke
@@Taydrum NO IT doesnt need to be cooled.!
The difference between the intake measurements is staggering! Glad I placed a heatshield behind mine.
mike tong one would have to wonder though, after a long spirited driving session that piece of metal would turn into a radiator of sorts because it doesn't reflect Heat constantly, eventually everything under the hood will get hot so by routing the air intake piping out of the engine bay area he will always get the coldest air
I've seen Formula SAE simply sandwich fiberglass cloth/mesh between two pieces of metal to act as heat shields.
My 09 Hyundai has a manifold heat shield like that and it really works, I can touch it without even a hint of getting burned. My old Nissan's simple stamped-steel one might as well be a skillet 🤣
It is still shielding heat. It is going to be less than direct exposure to the exhaust radiation. Especially with air flow under the hood.
More piping, less pressure, less air mass.
Yeah. New cars put shielding on about everything sometimes. Chevy and Ford went nuts with it on their sedans. I think a little more on their trucks. I think they're working on better sensor long term reliability as well.
turn 90 degrees up
cut hole in hood
cold air
The perfect aesthetic solution.
Wow. There is really no better answer than that, I'd think.
And if it ever rains...
Ricer Miata can build you a snorkler.
Corrosion37
While you're at it, don't go half ass, engineer a proper NACA duct.
The moment I see this open air intake in Jason's supercharging the s2000 video, I was like did they really left this intake like this? I couldn't believe it. And I recently come across this video which proved my point.
I remember back around 2001 there was a shop selling a "cold air" intake that was piped from the throttle body to the front air inlet in the bumper resembling an intercooler. All these years I have always remained curious about the design and your video has reawoken that curiosity.
I would love for you to continue this series (measuring temps and trying to perhaps lower intake temps)!! Also perhaps try temp reading in the OEM air box and the OEM air box + snorkel if that's feasible in your SC setup. I've considered the snorkel but wondered how effective it is.
It would also be cool if you did some comparative 2nd gear pulls - say 30-60 (or redline) with temp readings and then if you think you develop a better (cooler) Intake setup do the same 30-60 2nd gear pull (i'm suggesting a second gear pull only to eliminate the 1-2 shift or any other shift as a variable in the acceleration times).
Thanks for another great video!! Keep em coming!!
Thanks for being scientific about the cold-air intake myth. Ive tried to explain this for years to my buddies who think taking the factory airbox off (alone) makes them faster. No, it makes it louder which FEELS faster, and draws hot air from the exhaust manifold.
If you end up going OEM style and sucking the air from the side of the fender, do a dyno test before and after the change to see how much "hot air intake" looses in actual HP.
It's great to see some actual data about this topic! Oh, belated appreciation for the the dyno and road comparisons about the supercharger in previous videos.
Man I love S2000's. The day I own one is the day I become extremely happy.
Would you ever consider uploading a video entirely dedicated to just a cruise in the S2000? Some pulls here and there; hearing that sweet sweet vtec crossover.
This was a good experiment. I did something similar about 5 years ago with my 2500HD truck. I have a ScanGauge II hooked up to my OBDII port and mounted above my rearview mirror. After swapping out the stock air cleaner box with a K&N FIPK, I noticed the difference between the outside temperature and IAT while cruising on the highway was 20-35 degrees Fahrenheit on a mild summer day. When the IAT jumped to 100+ degrees (i.e. city driving, stop-and-go traffic), the performance dropped significantly (as expected) so I decided to wrap my “hot air intake” heat shield with heat wrap and installed an Volant air scoop with Lowes downspout flexible tubing which directed air from the tow hook opening in the front valence up behind the headlight and pointed it directly at the cone air filter. Using this method, I now see about 7 degrees F difference consistently between outside air temperature and IAT during a typical summer day. Instead of relocating the intake, maybe you can use a similar approach.
This explains why a PO of my Turbo Supra fashioned a cold-air intake "box" using a mid-eighties Nissan turbo intake atop the engine hood and some sheet metal around the intake. It looks cool, if also a bit tacky, now I know that it probably works. Sweet. Thanks.
I'm glad you put a nail in the myth of "cold air" intakes that aren't. lol What is needed is a plenum that routs the air in the front of the car right to the air cleaner. Oh, yea just like the stock setup. lol Thanks!
Now you have to do the calculations to approximate performance gains from relocation. Relocate, test again. Great video! Good work.
relocating your air intake is the best solution .i did this on my 3.0 turbo bmw and it helps keep the power constant and reliable on track days
Very informative. Always wanted to do something like this. Thanks for sharing your data.
Ive found mimiking Hondas factoy intake setup, is the best way to get any form of "gains" from intalling an aftermarket intake. Honda goes through very meticulus process to make sure the best airflow goes into their engines. Usually the best place to put it is where the original baffling was.
Some time ago i had a ford escort. There was a strip of plastic that added about 2 inches below the radiator, as stretched the width of the radiator. It was held in place with 2 plastic fasteners, one of which broke, causing the strip to hang from one side of the car, and drag on the street. i took the piece intending to get it replaced by the dealer. It didn't cause any problems while driving around the city, but when on the highway, the engine started to overheat. I pulled over and replaced the plastic strip, fastening it back with another fastener from the trunk, which was pretty much the same as the piece that has been still holding the strip in place. Returned to the highway, and the overheating stopped. My thought is that without the strip, there was enough buffeting air to interfere with the flow through the radiator at highway speeds to keep the radiator from properly cooling the car. Since the air flowing through the radiator is being heated, i would imagine most of the air in the engine compartment would be substantially warmer than ambient air. So would expect that the air entering the supercharger might be warmer than you expected.
Of course the lesson i learned is that strips of plastic hanging under a car engine that seem superfluous might be there for a good reason.
Great video! Straight to the point, and driven by data, not opinion.
Other "experimenters" looking to perform a similar test would most likely do it stationary, maybe with a fan to simulate airflow, all in the name of consistency and control over variables, but I def. prefer how you did it here. Actual real-world testing with real-world results.
In the stone age of aircraft engine development engineers used blast tubes (usually corrugated metal - not unlike clothes dryer exhaust ducts) to direct ambient air (aft of the props...) to cool engine components, typically generators/alternators. It seems to me this would be the cheapest (by far) and most effective way to route ambient air to the intake.
Facing the front of the engine: A 50-100 mm h X max open grill width terminated on one or both sides with outlet(s) sized to fit corrugated aluminum flex duct. Route as necessary and terminate at the intake with a 50 mm clearance around the filter.
For more fun with t-cups measure the before and after temps at the intake manifold as well. Back of envelope calculations show a possible .75-1.5% increase in HP. Thanks for the excellent video!
wow you drove all the way to Mexico just to do that 80mph run, true dedication to the channel!
When i installed my SC i notice the same problem my fast solution was re install the CAI from spoon that attaches to the original air box. The temperature decreased 10°C in the same conditions. You should test it with thoose TC's to see the real difference because i compared only with ambient temperature and the original IAT. All the best keep up ;)
If I may make a suggestion, I'd love to hear engine performance and advanced engine performance explained. Freakin love your videos man.
It would be great to see a follow-up video on the theoretical power differences depending on intake air temp and then compare actual figures before and after CAI mod. Awesome stuff as always!
i did that with my 2003 expedition. aftermarket CAI with no heatshield. I used a scan tool to monitor air intake temperature (reading the MAF) and i have a temp gage on the front grill. I noted a significant difference between ambient and intake temps. Then i build a heat shield from a plastic trash can sourced from Home Depot (no kidding). scavenged some weather stripping from a junk yard to form a seal around the open top of the can (the can was laid out horizontally with the intake tube coming in through the bottom of the can). The hood insulation closed off the box. The only open area was directly in front toward the various openings along the radiator, light fixture, and down below. I re-scaned temps at highway speed and noticed that my intake temps were almost exactly the same as ambient. At idle, intake was warmer, but not like it was without the can. So getting a CAI aftermarket with a 'box' is better than just an open intake, at least from my limited experiments.
Man, I love your videos and how you easily explain stuff.
I'm from Brazil, and since not everyone around here speaks English, it's a shame that I can't share the videos with most of my friends.
Wouldn't you be interested in me making some Portuguese subtitles for you? I believe you would have a lot of subscribers from here if more people could understand your videos.
BTW, I'm also a mechanical engineer and gearhead!
You could always take a tip from the NHRA Pro Stock guys and add a snorkel scoop! Your vehicle's overall height may increase slightly, but underhood temperatures should drop dramatically.
A very simple and effective solution is to place in front of the radiator and behind the bumper (at the ambient temp. thermocouple), a flexible aluminum duct all the way to the filter. 7-8cm diameter is more than enough. You can also paint it black.
That filter is already very close to an ideal cold air source, that hole in the inner fender. Just extend the intake hose so filter resides in that semi round fender opening.
This avoids the hydrolock pitfalls of locating intake in grill area, yet still provides much cooler air.
great vid, cold air intakes were so much more important for carbs and points, todays engines compensate for temperatures, but the colder the better
Interesting, I havent seen anyone actually measure the difference before, thanks for showing.
Bro !!!! one of the best videos yet. Try a heat shield, then a heat shield with gold tape(see if that myth works), and for the finally a fenderwell intake. I would love to see the results. I look forward to your next video
Another great video! I wonder if there would be a significant difference if you put the thermocouple inside the air filter so that you're just measuring the air coming in, rather than possible radiant heat hitting those sensors and skewing your results.
How is this guy doing math while talking and driving and looking at the meter. *You Win*
Cool video, cool report. Love the thermocouple/digital meter hook up, all action recorded by the GoPros; however, one constructive criticism: you should be able to connect all those inputs to a laptop while keeping your eyes on the road. I know, I know, you are in the middle of nowhere, so far away from everyday traffic, I am pretty sure so far out, mosquitos don’t go there no more . But with a laptop you can examine the info afterwards while enjoying a cup of your favorite fresh brew. You are an engineer, and I don’t want to come across as a Star Trek “Too many captains, not enough engineers” type of commentator. No texting and driving, no thermocoupling and driving :) Again, thanks for the video. Be safe and be blessed!
Wow, definitely significant figures. Make sure you include pressure drop readings as you play with rerouting your intake.
Thank you for Celsius.
Indeed, the correct global measurement of temperature.
Fahrenheit is more precise
Of course it is... checkout all the Nuclear power stations that use Fahrenheit to measure coolant temperatures...... Oh wait...... Even US Power stations use C.
jacob stienecker The decimal exists for a reason.
jacob stienecker you can just use decimals to be more precise
i love me some hot air intakes, best way to maximize the decrease in air density.
The effect of a heat shield should be easiest to test, just tape in some cardboard behind the intake as a temporary air box/wall.
Testing a relocation would cost more, but I am interested in seeing how both affect the IAT, so if you're willing to try. I will certainly watch.
The hardest for hood modification wise doing an intake opening and air box under the right side of the hood would be the easiest for running an air tube. Otherwise you have to go under and around the radiator and intercooler, etc. Not sure if you even like that look but it just seemed the most simple solution.
Prop the back of the hood up a inch and watch the temps level out.. a rear facing vent "scoop" etc makes a big difference. I remember drag racing my maverick and having the fans on vrs fans off was about 2 10th of a second difference just food for thought
can anyone even hear the supercharger? i'm not sure if you're getting much power gain if your honda doesn't sound like a leaf blower
keep up the great vids!
centrifugal supercharger doesn't sound the same as a twin screw .
well it has been dynoed, he got a resonable increase ;-) and it is also explained in that video what he could have done to make more power :-)
lasagna bloke sounds more like your mom screaming on the bed😂 jk
I thought it sounded more like a limb shredder.
Although the sound is important for the power gained the optic is even more important. I don't see any racing stripes on the car so that's a lot of wasted power right there...
A heat shield surrounding the intake and a cold air route from in front of the radiator to the filter encasement makes about a 50° difference (farenheit) as measured on my old cd5 accord. The flexible metal tubing at autozone and some sheet metal screws and hose clamps makes for a $25 fix on a cold air route. The heat shield can be bought for a not small price, or if youre handy with sheet aluminum, a press brake, drill, and rivets you can do one up for like $30 (cost of tools not included). The temp difference can be extreme for under $100 and a weekend of measuring and fitting. This solution is based on wanting the top end of a short intake, while getting the cold air of a longer intake tube: essentially, the best of both worlds. Im not a fan of cold air intakes on high revving engines as the longer intake tube promotes more of a torque increase instead of a horsepower increase. Just my $.02
It could be interesting to introduce a cooling plate as a variable here. Something like the AUT cooling plate that is the designed to pull fresh air in from the front of the S2000, and channel it into the stock intake. Since the filter is sitting right near where the stock air box did, it could have a meaningful impact.
I think the thermocouple on the rear of the intake air filter is probably reading radiant heat from the engine and manifolds rather than strictly the intake air temperature acquired through air convection past the thermocouple.
Which is to say that your heat shield should help reduce the heat, but if you're going to spend time and effort on it, then consider doing something like Subaru does with their turbos and put the air filter into a pod that matches up with the hood. Cut a louvered grill pattern into the hood and deal with routing rainwater out of the pod. You might gain a PSI with a bit of ram air at the front of the hood, as well.
I think it's cool that you're taking a scientific approach, instead of just making assumptions. I look forward to seeing your solution to the "hot air intake" problem.
dude the S2K turned out great. Great info on the IAT test.
You could add a cold air feed duct to supply ambient air to the filter location under the hood which would keep your intake duct simple and short.
I have a 2016 Mustang GT and it will monitor intake temperatures. I was looking at this a bit today on my drive home. The in car thermometer stated 85F ambient temp. While not moving in traffic the intake temp would go to 135F. Once moving for a bit the temp would go down to 93F at minimum. I have the Ford Performance cold air intake that does route ambient air through the front grill to the air box.
I have a similar setup and i measure intake temps post intercooler. When the car is moving at freeway speeds the temperature is 10 to 20 Celsius above ambient.
At the track when the car is waiting in line the post intercooler intake temperatures can reach 50°C above ambient!! The engine bay keeps the heat in and even the intercooler fluid gets hot without air blowing across the intercooler. In a way they become inter heaters if the car is parked for too long.
On my data logs, a cold air intake gets about 3 degrees above ambient temperature under load. The stock box, under load, is about 10-15 degrees above ambient. The HOT air intake is about 20 degrees warmer than ambient under full load sounds about right.
I'm surprised you are not data logging from the ECU, especially after getting tuning software. Much easier to data log.
He'd still need a thermocouple for the control and finding out where there are differences. Just data logging IAT would work i guess if you had all the different intakes and wanted to test between them.
The temp difference will be way higher on forced induction. Compressing air heats it up considerably
Interesting test. I think the real take away here is, even with a box style intake, the placement and effect of the rear end of the intake tube is what really makes a difference.
Remember that locating the thermocouples in the filter's webbing will give a significant windchill factor aswell since the air passing through is moving a lot faster than the air at the front of the car or the static on the engine.
Where the actual filter is makes little difference.
It needs a cool air feed from somewhere so you can place the filter at the front then heat porrf/shielded pipe to the intake or you can feed that pipe to the location you have and box the filter in something as heat proof as possible.
A bit awkward on an S2K because it's quite small in there. There used to be front clips available with various intake designs but I would say a small hood scoop right at the front lip may work well. It could feed a good sized airbox with the filter inside and it would not only be cool air but would also have a minor supercharging effect so making life even easier for the charger.
I would heat wrap or coat the manifold and downpipe anyway though because less temp in the engine bay is always nice when boost is involved.
Oh and it might help compensate for the rich mixture up top a little if the map sensor can figure it out.
Nice video . Try to cordon off the air intake with a shield ...similar to the ones sold by k&n . Also place an air scoop/funnel inside the grill and direct the cold air with a hose from inside the bumper and into the cordoned off space. ( something similar to a cold air intake) . I am from India and the disadvantage of running a cold air intake is during rainy seasons , there are high chances of water ingress which can cause hydrostatic lock . With the setup i've mentioned earlier , you can get a cold air feed and at the same time a much lesser chance of water ingress.
Awesome experiment!!!!!! Us with the kraftwerks kit, we have our intake face the driver's side. Which is behind the fans from the radiator that blow hot air.. so we've been debating if the passenger side like your is better
It seems like some people think that colder air doesn’t really help a supercharger/intercooler setup.
But since a supercharger (be it roots type or centrifugal) has a fixed rotating speed for any given RPM, it effectively ingest a fixed amount of air for any given RPM. If this air is hotter in the first place, it is less dense and thus contains less oxygen molecules. However efficient your intercooler is, the system ingested less oxygen molecules, and power potential is reduced.
Modern turbochargers on the other hand often compensate hotter/lower density air sensed by the MAF by letting the turbine spool faster ans thus produce more pressure. Superchargers can’t do that.
I was surprised by your findings! I've got a 92 Civic Si, mostly stock but with a K&N cone filter hanging out in the engine compartment. On really cold days I can feel a difference in power vs more temperate days. I had assumed that at freeway speeds the under-hood temps would be much lower than you found. This time of year I spend a lot of time in traffic with the A/C running, which should really push up under-hood temps. I'm now contemplating an air box of some sort to bring in colder outside air. I would be interested in a comparison as Humblemechanic suggested.
I have a k&n fipk on my 05 gmc canyon 3.5L, it's kinda like yours, but a longer tube (much bigger engine bay, and tube routes over the head) and has the heat sheild. Using a scan tool (an Ultra Gauge display) i can track intake temps via the pcm and the maf. So many people hate those intakes, calling them Hot Air Intakes, but while driving, the intake air temps dont go much higher than about 5-10°F over ambient. Of course, low speed or parked, it'll cook.
Back when I was 18 going to school to be a MECHANIC I ENGINEERED a cold air intake out of PVC pipe. The intake worked great and costed very little. The short ram intake kits you can buy for cheap are junk. Get a cold air intake (which most modern cars have from the factory) or do not mod it at all.
I was very glad to see you do this video. Turned out about how I expected. But now my suspicions are confirmed. This is why I am still running my factory air intake. I would like to know if more (volume) hotter air still = more power over stock restricted intake.
Hey,EE.
I think the video isnt quite complete since you didn't talk about how air density changes as a function of temperature. I agree those temperature differences were greater than my expectations, Though I think talking about the change in air density would help give perspective to your data.
Love your vids!
It doesn’t look like you’ve got that much clearance to relocate it down to me, but I don’t have my hands in the engine bay. If you can, I’d love to see you do it, but due to the space you have I support the heat shield!
That what I missed about the old Comptech S/C setup, the kit provided you with an air box that shielded the filter from the engine heat without the need to route the filter to the bottom because it had a duct you can use to channel cold air into the box.
BRILLIANT VIDEO Jason! I have wanted to do this for YEARS! If you look at the reduction in air mass due to the temperature (simplified assuming intake is purely volumetric), using Charles' law it's still 290K/320K = about -10% theoretically weaker mixture than it need be. Wouldn't it be great if you could actually get enough air to EXPAND and thereby cool below ambient temperature and nevertheless fill the compressor at atmospheric pressure. NACA oversized intake and insulated expansion chamber?! Your compressor will be heating up the air further, so IMHO you still need to measure the air temp. after the compressor. What do you think? All the best Rob in Switzerland.
Yep, I see guys online installing "hot" intakes all the time. The high flow filter will help compared to stock, but true cold air intakes would work much better.
RE: "Need" for hot air.
Had an '86 Dodge D50 with carb. Decided that the arm air stove off the exhaust manifold was bad because coer air is better, right? It was fine in Texas but when I fiannly came home to the Great Northwest, temps were lower and the carb would ice up. OOPS! Fortunately I still had all of the parts and put it back together. Yeah, they put that stuff on there for a reason, just like intake air comes from the outside from the factory.
So my take-away from this is that sometimes you need warm air, but in modern engines cool is what the really cool kids do.
Now I prefer diesels so you can keep your silly spark plugs and carbs. :)
Ideas: Compare the intake air temp sensor (the one used by the ECU located in your intake piping or manifold) to the ambient temps. With the intercooler, your hot air intake might not matter. If it's still more than a little bit above ambient you should be able to significantly lower intake temps by just adding a heat shield (ideally with an air gap) behind the air filter. You could also trim the front hood insulation to give the air a path into the engine bay.
Haven’t been interested in your videos for a while, couldn’t relate. But this video was awesome!
I love how you don’t guess, you find out for sure
Great work man
The intake is behind the radiator in the airflow path, it's a hot air intake. Anything behind the radiator should be considered "hot" relative to ambient just due to the fact that now airflow is cut significantly while having a heat shield is good and will help, moving the filter into a position of direct airflow will result in much cooler temps, always remember that the bumper and most of the front of the car are meant to cut through the air and direct it to the radiator.
The location of the air intake in relation to the radiator will also be responsible for the high temperature differential you measured. Even while driving, the cool air will pick up heat as it passes through the radiator. An enclosed air box with piping closer to the front of the vehicle, or relocating the filter will have a greater effect than just adding an exhaust heat shield to the existing setup.
It would have been nice to seen one of the thermocouplers inside the air filter.... take off filter, place probe in the middle of the inlet hose and put the filter back on the tube. You can take an average of the temps on front/rear of the filter but you will not be sure what the blend ratio between front/rear of the filter will be; a probe down the throat of the beast will be the sure way to tell.
I vote to extend the intake tube and place the filter in the front bumper area (if you can plumb it there).
Add a thermocouple just after radiator and compare it to the engine bay and intake air temps. You'll find that the radiator out temp is quite close to the engine bay temp. The air flow flushes the hot air around the exhaust manifold to the back of the engine bay and it shouldn't be an issue in this case. The heat shield would eliminate the IR radiation load, however it shouldn't be significant compared to the heat load through the radiator..
Something to consider, that additional piping will decrease your pressure by way of Bernoulli principal. It appears to me, the best you should do is construct shrouding to block the rest of your engine from your filter.
I have a hot air intake now (just haven't been able to figure out how to get the intake out front...) and this is a really big difference. I am definitely going to try harder. Basically 20-30F difference depending on speeds is "free hp" if you can get ambient air in there, especially if you are heating that air up with a supercharger.
I suggest another remedy: heat shield on the back of the filter and carefully designed ducting from the front air dam up to the filter's location, like many trackers/auto-x'ers do with their brakes to keep their temps in check.
Thanks for doing this in celsius, i love you so much
The concept is simple. No matter what process is happening in your intake, cooler air is better and will make more power.
Take a cup of room temp water and a cup of hot water and put it in the fridge for 15 minutes. They both go through the same process, but one will come out cooler than the other because it started cooler than the other.
Also interesting that people will not argue that cold weather makes more power, but also assume pulling cooler air does nothing when it's going through a compressor.
Granted it might not be worth the extra $300 for an intake with a box/heatshield to get 5-10hp, but the power gains and efficiency improvements will be there.
You should also use the thermo couples to verify the efficiency of the intercooler (ambient, after air filter, before intercooler, after intercooler) I've done it in the past with one of my cars, ended up, replacing the intercooler, re-routing some piping and using heat shields.
Since you have a supercharged engine, I think it would be interesting to measure also the temperature at the intake manifold, before and after any mods :)
Great video. You just saved me some time doing the same test. Will be relocating my air filter to the front of my car.
The ambient sensor is usually near the front intake ,so it seems to be a large difference to the sensors you have installed. The filter and intake tube where it is installed is very subject to heat soaks I would suggest the air intake temp sensor would be very affected and would be giving the ECU wildly high intake temp readings .. Obviously move the filter closer to the front intake and more importantly, move the sensor closer to the filter to represent the actual intake air temps
That’s really cool, I always learned something new with him! Keep it up, you will make the world great!
A hood scoop helps to direct cooler air maybe a funnel with heat shielding could direct cooler air.
I say a funnel because piping air directly from exterior could allow water to reach the filter wile funneling cooler air into engine bay near the filter will prevent water contamination.✌
This is good, but what is more important is logging your IAT’s via your obd port. I’m told that above 40c iat can inhibit a higher chance of knock in your engine.
I’m guessing the climate you’re in is far nicer then the UK so may be worth investigating. I have some data i have logged with my VQ35DE pre and post larger intercooler if you want to have a peek.
If your tuner says IAT temps is not an issue for you then getting cooler intake temps is likely to result in a boost in peak performance, even without map re-calibration 👍🏽
As i see it theres a third option you missed,
Option 1, move the intake to where cooler air is, I can see the sense in that, assuming you keep it safe from rain etc, having a ducted box would work... but see also 3.
Option 2, sheild it from heat, doesnt make as much sense to me as per your radiation vs convection discussion, it may be subject to radiation heat and youd potentially be limiting the flow of cooler air into that space...
Thus option 3, attempt to vent out the hot air out of that space, such as with a small rear facing vent over the pod, or the old racers trick of putting a couple of washers in the back of the bonnet hinges.
Now it's time to make a heat shield and measure it again :) Good test. I've noticed in my car, that in summer air intake temps on highway at 140-150km/h are at 55*C. That's quite bad. Fortunately, that's N/A 2,5l V6 producing 160hp, so it's not really stressed engine.
You could put just a box around the air filter, with the top part open. It could help get some cooler air.
Interesting video, thanks for producing it and sharing your findings.
I think it would be very interesting to add aditional data to this:
Intake manifold is being heated by the coolant in s2000 and it also doesn't have thermo insulation from the engine block.
Because of these reasons the manifold can get quite hot and there are opinions that intake air will be heated by it.
So it would be interesting to add another data point in this experiment - IAT from ECU.
In this case we could see what sort of temperatures ECU is using when calculating the amount of fuel.
Also, there is a consensus that 3C degree colder IAT should increase horespower by about 1%.
Build a heat shield and cover it with gold tape like Tavarish. Test the before and after tape temps.
I definitely think you need to get cooler intake air.
But make sure it fairly high up and doesn’t get any water into it from heavy rain or worse driving through a puddle of water that’s deeper than it looked.
That Honda is already pretty low to the ground as it is.
I don’t want to see a motor grenade by hydraulic lock.
ErictheCarGuy had a piston cracked by hydraulic lock with gasoline. An accident with a fuel pressure regulator set too high.
AutoVlog had a brand new Mercedes AMG something-or-other get hydraulic lock going through water not very deep that splashed up under the hood and caused hydraulic lock. Motor ruined. Car totaled. AMG apparently didn’t do good research or design when they modified the engine. It rains a lot in Europe so they better fix it toot sweet.
Great video. Interesting data. I’m actually surprised at how high the temperatures were.
Even tough I’m an engineer myself, I’d do the conversion to Fahrenheit and list both for the average subscriber. Even I just ballpark it in my head.
Another idea to add is to check the flow of air at the front and back of the intake to get an idea of HOW MUCH air is going in from the “hot” and “cold” side of the intake.
put the intake in place of the one of the fog lights. just replace the lamp itself with a fairly fine metal mesh to protect from debris. you will get the most airflow to the intake, and the coldest ambient temperature from outside
The best solution is an airbox with a snorkel. Like on most standard systems. Putting the intake down low is asking for trouble when it rains, using a ram-air style extension hose is just as risky, cant beat an airbox with snorkel
Good test. Do test with a heatshield and one with the filter located closer to the front.
Tha best way to have cold air and big velocity is by changing to a cai airbox or similar taking air from a small cut of the hood or bumper like mailbox as we say! I've seen results from close on time attack cars and it works! MAILBOX i think is the best Cold and fast air intake
-- Heatshield maybe better but traps the heat as well and the 2nd one under the bumper is dangerous of damage or water fill + some long travel !
What would be interesting to see is how fast the engine bay temp drops when you accelerate. Of course, the faster you accel, the faster the temps should drop. The engine doesnt necessarily need that super cool air when idling (but it wouldnt hurt). I think of it kind of like the reverse of your radiator fans. When the car is moving, cool air is hitting radiator. When the car is stationary, the fan kicks in helping to regulate temp....With the supercharger, theres nothing keeping the engine bay temps in check when the car is stationary, but its not a big deal bc peak performance isnt required at idle. Revving the engine in neutral or the start of a drag race would be a situation where the current intake location could cause a problem though. A heat shield is prob a better solution bc the intake is isolated from engine heat and its protected from the elements.
Fabricate a box around the filter and make some piping to allow it to pull air from the grill.