Trying (and Failing) to Love Sonic Adventure 2 - A Retrospective
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- After learning to love Sonic Adventure recently, I was excited to give the sequel the same shot, to see if maybe I'd come around on Adventure 2 as well. Sadly, that didn't happen - with so many odd changes and decisions made, I find Sonic Adventure 2 to be a flat-out weird game. BUT, thanks to my research into Sonic Adventure 2's unbelievably chaotic development, I understand what happened. Even if I didn't find much to love about it, I found a ton to appreciate about this weird game...even if it may not be in the way that long-time fans would agree with.
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This video is not intended for viewers under 13 years of age, and may contain content inappropriate for such viewers. Parental guidance suggested.
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
3:26 SA2's Chaotic Development
14:50 Hero Story
19:23 The (Great) SA1 vs. SA2 debate, explained
23:36 Gameplay I - Mech and Treasure Hunting
32:35 Gameplay II - Sonic/Shadow
46:33 SA2's Successes
51:33 Dark Story
57:35 Adventure 2's Poisoned Discourse; Last Story
1:07:58 Conclusion
#SonicAdventure2 #Sonic #BigisYourDad - เกม
Thanks for watching! I know I'm playing with fire a bit on this one, but hopefully I brought a new perspective to the Sonic Adventure 2 conversation. If not, Big's still your dad. Subscribe for him to come home.
If you wanna keep the party going, make sure to check out my buddy MykonosFan's video covering the history of Sonic game compilations! th-cam.com/video/mU2RunwfCmM/w-d-xo.html
Hey, that's me! Whoa!
Hey, great video. As someone who's always viewed SA2 much the same as you did in this video it feels great to see someone make an indepth analysis of why many of the design decisions of this game don't work.
That said, based on what you've said thus far I think Heroes may be one of the game you like the most or a mid ground between SA1 and SA2. Giving far more open levels, lots of mechanical depth in your movesets because of the team switching, and ultimately providing an experience that's far more substantive rather than stylish.
My advice for the combat though is to primarily stick to aerial attacks as knuckles as he launches the characters towards enemies and generally takes them out in a single hit. In fact just about every power type character has a means of pulling off a similar feat as they each have some attack that can easily take down enemies quickly. Once you have that down you come to realize the combat isn't all that hard to deal with and it just becomes part of the general flow of chaining actions to speed through the level.
I personally view this Heroes how many SA2 fans claim SA2 is to SA1. Difference is I think Heroes actually succeeds.
The insanity of all this is hillarious to me.
I played SA2 practically every day for 2 years back when it came out on DREAMCAST xD Right after beating SA1 and demanding to my parents to get me 2. I had to buy it myself, and it became the one game I wanted to play all the time. Basically never dropping it. And, it wasn't until Sonic X came out, that I figured out Rouge was a Spy. Not once, not once before was that ever clear to me during my entire gameplay of SA2.
Goes to show you how much of a roller coaster the game was.
Can you really call it a sonic adventure 2 Retrospective if you don't talk about the chao? -1/10 worst video ever ok I'm joking but man the chao garden is the best part man
A friend of mine once told me about this idea he had that the thing that makes a thing in pop culture beloved isn't so much the quality of the work, but how it resonates with its audience on an emotional level. G1 Transformers, for instance, intentionally invoked themes and imagery of wars that children of the time would have already been familiar with. This isn't speculation by the way, it's literally in the show bible, which also says that Optimus Prime was directly meant to evoke historical figures like George Washington and Abe Lincoln.
The actual content in the show isn't really the thing driving its success, it's what the content _evokes_ out of people emotionally that's really important. The appeal of SA2's story, likewise, isn't really in its actual beat-by-beat narrative content so much as it is the greater emotional arc of the whole piece. It's the sincerity of it all, in my opinion. When the devs talk about how much fun they had working on it, I really can see it in the way the writing expresses itself; they threw in all the stuff they thought was cool and connected them by way of sentimental themes that rang true to their hearts. It's that sincerity that i think is why it's starting to be really fondly remembered at this point in time; after nearly a decade of Sonic games that are dripping with an almost _excruciating_ amount of self-awareness, it's hard not to look back fondly on something that was neither aware of nor cared about how other people would view it.
1:00:15 Dunno if it was deliberate, but I think Sonic doing Chaos Control with a fake emerald was supposed to tie in thematically into the whole "fake" and "real" Hedgehog thing from earlier in the story, how even a supposed fake can be as capable as the "real" thing. As has been mentioned, Shadow was created to fulfill the Super Sonic prophecy, aka the "Ultimate Lifeform." So Shadow could be considered Sonic's "fake," in that sense, even though he came first. Shadow is the original, but he's artificial. Sonic came much later, but he's natural.
Best not to think about it too deeply, but I believe in its own weird little way the story presents the question of authenticity and then answers that with "It doesn't matter, just follow your own way." Which on a meta level can be applied to the whole franchise.
That's a great shout, the fake emerald always stuck out to me enough that I sort of saw past it in the immediate sense. It creates other problems but it does do a good job of tying into the lightly covered theme of identity, thanks for pointing that out!
Mhm "It's like poetry, it rhymes".
Anybody want a pizza roll?
Considering that sonic used the emeralds a lot already, and for the same reason shadow cannot keep his super form in space while sonic can, and shadow was created based on the super sonic murals, it makes sense. That also explains the mistaking shadow for sonic
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 The mistaking Shadow for Sonic did make more sense with the Terios design. As much as I like Shadow, in broad daylight he should never be mistaken for Sonic, especially by Amy.
I never thought of this, that's a really cool use of the fake vs real theme that so much of Sonic and Shadow's rivalry in this game goes for. You could even argue that the reused assets between many stages also reflect this theme... even if it was much more likely just done to save time.
This was an interesting retrospective and I appreciate the different viewpoint on this game. However I do have some things to add, specifically for gameplay. I feel like people underestimate how crucial the ranking system is in relation to how SA2 is designed. SA1 was mostly focused on exploration and casual play, while SA2 is more of an action focused game, and so the ranking system encourages you to replay the levels and learn the mechanics in order to get better. Sure, not everyone will want to do that, and I get it, but I think it’s quite rewarding. In relation to mech movement, they actually move just about as fast as Gamma did. The top part moves separately from the legs to allow you to target multiple enemies at once which is the whole point of the style. The more enemies you lock onto, the more points you get, so it’s really a test of timing while trying to move as fast as possible. Taking your time is actually the opposite of what the game wants you to do, which is quite different from SA1, but I thinks it’s just as effective in its own way. Also the Sonic/Shadow gameplay focuses on getting points which you can do by chaining together actions, killing enemies, etc. which I think is quite fun, but that’s just me. The parts you mentioned being automated actually tend to have something you can do to get points like some of the hidden rails in Final Rush. People also tend to not like the loops because of their supposed automation, but in reality, you can skip pretty much every loop if you are creative enough. Anyway, there’s my essay that I typed on my phone for some reason. Cool video, even if I disagree!
I mentioned in another comment something similar, but you're spot on about the ranking system. I ended up getting about half of the stage Emblems, including just about all of the Speed stage ones. The only ones I didn't really dive into were Crazy Gadget because I just don't find that level particularly fun, and I think I stopped after the hidden Chao for Final Rush, just to get back to work on the video itself. I think that these sorts of simple mission tweaks were a great way to expand on SA1's early version of this, to the point that I wanted even more variety from them - it's exactly what Sonic should be doing for replayability to me!
@@TheGoldenBolt The only reason to replay Crazy Gadget a lot is the eggman line at the end.
"You'll never leave this room alive. HA HA!" The most random thing he says in that entire game.
"and so the ranking system encourages you to replay the levels and learn the mechanics in order to get better"
Problem is that there's not really a lot to get better at in this game. There's so much automation, so much playing itself. I can't get better at homing attacking through floating enemies, or holding B while grinding on rails, or watching boost pads fling Sonic through a loop. There's some fun to be had playing as Sonic and Shadow, but so many stages get bogged down by these annoying gimmicks. It's a shame because they improved the handling compared to SA1, but then took so much freedom to actually play away. Shoutout especially to whichever of the two final stages has the giant spiral grind rail that you just go down for like 30-50 seconds doing literally nothing.
Definitely can't get better at the treasure hunting stages, that comes down to memorization of the hints and what locations they match with. And in some stages, restarting until you get good locations (looking at the two very vertical space levels, mostly). EDIT: Also it will never not be stupid that SA2 takes away the radar working for all 3 things at once. They make _bigger_ levels and also _nerf_ the radar?! What?! Simply stupid. I don't play SA2 often, but if I ever play it again it will be on PC with a mod that fixes the radar.
There's not a lot of skill to the shooter stages either. Once one figures out the trick you mentioned about the top part moving independently, that's it, that's pretty much the skill ceiling. I'll also always personally feel that this gameplay style wasn't fun to begin with. It was passible in SA1 because 1, the stages were short and there weren't many of them, so Gamma was over before it became grating. In SA2, there's so many of these stages, and they're the longest stages in the game, so for me they easily wear out their welcome before I even finish one side's story, let alone the entire game.
And for the record, yes I did actually A rank everything and unlock Green Hill Zone when this game released on GameCube.
@@mjc0961 Uh, yeah all that is wrong. Homing attacking doesn't have a huge skill ceiling, but it's possible to go for them too early, possible to waste more time in the air than needed, and even possible to get hit by a stray bullet in some sections, so there's stuff to be better and worse at. If you think grinding is just holding B, then I can confidently say you suck at it, because it's about managing your speed and ability to balance the character. Most loops are partially skippable in SA2, as shown a couple times in this very video. Shoutout to you for missing how easy it is to skip Final Rush's grind spiral with a fall, which was almost showed off in this very video. Now look, I don't much like the other two gameplay styles either, but efficiently exploring all possible gem locations is the point of those stages, and since you don't seem to realize, you get good scores treasure hunting by not using the hint system, the team wanted you intimately familiar with the levels. I wouldn't quite call it a success, but to pretend there's nothing to learn is just petty ignorance. Even at a rudimentary level the mech stages at the very least demand memorization from the player to not get hit constantly.
Given that you didn't know these things, no I don't believe you A ranked everything in this game and unlocked Green Hill. For the record.
Recently began playing Battlefield 4 never played the story mode and by God it is epic I recommend anyone try BF4 in 2021 /22 and give that amazing campaign a run through. Kevin's like I'm a fucking Nerd and still don't get it lmfao
SA2 is my hands down favorite Sonic game, but I say that with the caveat that I know it isn't for everyone. Sonic games have always been a niche thing post-Genesis era, so the fact that everyone can express their taste and have a favorite Sonic game while it's someone else's least favorite is something I appreciate.
Trust me, I'm a Ratchet & Clank guy so I totally get that! Everybody's got a favorite, it's amazing...up until the wars start lol
by FAR the best sonic
@@TheGoldenBolt Yep, until the war starts lol. I need to play Ratchet and Clank one day! Your videos have made me super interested in the series.
I would argue that even the Genesis games were niche, especially Sonic 1 which is a hard game to enjoy upon analyzing it & comparing it to later games. I always found the 2D Games to have more jank than the Adventure Games personally with it easier to run into offscreen enemies or fall into unexpected pitfalls in them.
@@TheGoldenBolt Had no idea the Ratchet and Clank fandom could be so contentious.
Y'know, watching this and seeing the flaws that you point out make me realize that Sonic 06 was actually taking those criticisms to heart. There would be 3 gameplay styles but the main goal would remain the same and the extra characters to the stories would only have sections of stages and not full blown mechanics. Not to mention the great level design. Although Sonic 06 wasn't finished, I can see that they did learn from sa2 and Sonic p06 did give us a vision of what it could've been.
Yeah. From the looks of it, Sonic 06 would've definitely been a Sonic Adventure 3.
Project 06 check it out
"Project 06, check it out. Dungeon Chill, out."
So apparently the original designs for Sonic's counterpart, codenamed 'Terios' meaning something like reflection, were much closer to Sonic, with the main differences being a darker shade of blue and a scar. So the plot line of Sonic being mistaken for Shadow was probably written when the old design was used, and then somehow left in after Terios became Shadow. There are videos that explain it way better than me though.
Honestly, with the story, I feel like SA2’s Hero Story has these insane events happen and jumps around all over to set up the mystery of what the Dark Story is up to
The Dark Story being a lot more cohesive and showing what the characters are up to
Honestly I'd say the Dark story is a much better experience because it's where all the actions that drive the plot actually happen but it's clearly a deliberate choice to have the protagonists on the back foot from the beginning and never really catch up with things until right at the end.
It's not a masterpiece of fiction but there are a lot of ideas about the role of the military in using scientific research as a medium to find ever more powerful means to inflict violence on people and how the creation of those weapons enables more destructive forms of terrorism to occur.
I also think that the idea of giving each of the three protagonists a rival who represents the kind of person that they would have had the potential to become through different life experiences. I mean there's a lot you could read into Eggman/Robotnik having to live with the knowledge that the government executed/imprisoned and enslaved multiple members of his family. I'd be motivated to become a terrorist under those circumstances.
There is a mod that has the levels and cutscenes in canonical order that makes the story flow way better. Similar to clementj64's lp.
@@mysteryperson1958 so what's the name of it?
That's the point. In the Hero Story, it's all about the Heroes fighting back against the villains despite their ignorance of the situation. They suddenly found themselves in their individual situations, Sonic being chased in the city after being framed by Shadow and chased by G.U.N without understanding why, Knuckles suddenly having his master emerald stolen by Rouge and embarking on a race to collect them all first, and Tails learning that Sonic has been captured or arrested without quite understanding the motive of his supposed crimes. Each of them are thrust into the situation immediately and don't understand what's going on. In the beginning of the Hero Side Story they are gathering together and trying to make sense of their situation, which eventually allows them to counter attack the villains and fighting against them even without understanding everything. Start on the defensive but end on the offensive.
In the Dark Story the ones orchestrating their situations are themselves, Eggman infiltrating G.U.N to free Shadow fully intent on using him for world domination which sets the entire game in motion, Shadow finally having a chance to fulfill his misguided revenge and uses Eggman to gather the emeralds and activate Gerald's plan while framing Sonic almost by Proxy, and Rouge who stole the Master Emerald from Knuckles involving him and involves herself with Eggman shortly after to investigate him and later project Shadow. They are in control of their situation immediately, you watch as they begin to plot or enact their plans, you know their actual intentions and have full context as to what's going on. They begin on the offensive catching the heroes off guard and end up on the defensive when the heroes are more composed.
Either could be played in any order. If you played the Dark Story first, you don't really have a good idea about the heroes' whereabouts and what they are up to. Play the Hero Story, you don't understand the situation fully and are left with questions about the villain's plans and motivations. Have no preference myself, both are good options.
55:25 - That scene transition made me audibly go, "Ooh!"
That's one in the editing process where I was like "Yeah, that's a good 'un" haha
Thank you for being one of the only reviewers of this game to throw in some tasteful jokes that aren't at the game's expense. This and your SA 1 reviews are some of my favorite content on this website at the moment
I was utterly dying at the "alternate ending" sequence when Sonic crashed the rocket. That was amazing.
As someone who 100% the game like once every three years, I want to give a brief summary of why I really like the game.
First, the jank does not bother me, pretty much at all, mainly because I've played the game so much, I've learned to play around it effortlessly.
Next, I find comparing SA1 and 2 not necessarily fair as they were trying to do different things. SA2's focus was mostly around my favourite aspect of the game, the ranking system.
Trying to maximize your score is where the game becomes most enjoyable.
The mech stages trying to lock on to as many enemies to get a high bonus.
The treasure hunting stages, where you familiarize yourself so much with the stage that you know where the emerald is after a single hint is its own catharsis.
The action stages, where you have to find all the tricks that give you bonus points are and use them, trying not to break flow.
These things make you feel awesome, which is helped by the game telling you so.
That incentive for mastery I feel is more lacking in SA1. It causes me to have the most fun in SA1 by trying to subvert the levels instead of interacting with them as intended, which is fun, but not as rewarding.
This is my absolute fav game, I've 100%'d it at least 2-3 times, several partial completions - never used the treasure hunting hints since they didn't ever make sense and trashed the points, so the way you approached it really stuck out to me. I just kept getting faster and faster and dashing through the levels until the radar activated and then honing in from there. Really surprised to see that approach with how much you played it.
For everything said in the vid, it's so on point, I was just fine personally compensating for jank in terms of learning, and for faulty story with my own headcanon, but I notice those that don't do that and take every game straightforward solely as it's presented are the ones to dislike it the most. Rightfully so I guess it's their preference, but I thought the video underlined this difference of approach much more clearly for me than others, since I agree with all the flaws but still like it all the same.
There is no need for hints at all! All you need to do is go in circles/rising spiral! I actually never used hints playing it for the first time because that requires standing in place and reading a sign, which is not how other play styles work, which is a flowing skillful constant movement through the level. I memorized a route and easily got the emeralds on all levels (except death chamber, that one is a labyrinth :/ the only stage i dislike)
Most of the time, the emeralds spawn rather far away from each other. I got "all emeralds trackable" mod to spice up the gameplay after 200 hours on steam and most of the time, youre only gonna track one at a time. So if you found an emerald in a lower section, chances are the next one is in a middle or upper section. Which is what i do; i just aim myself at a section i think its gonna be in and voila, most of the time it is there. I really do feel like a real treasure hunter. Literally feel master emerald.
@@KOTEBANAROT For the smaller earlier stages I completely agree, though for larger stages it's not my preferred play style.
I don't play with the all radar on mod personally, so searching without hints can be repetitive.
You are able to read hints in motion, though it can be finicky to get it.
Also personally, considering the bonus points go
No hints under minute: 2000
1 hint under minute: 1500
No hints over minute: 1000
I personally don't like risking the -1000 and prefer just to take the -500 + better time bonus
"That incentive for mastery I feel is more lacking in SA1. It causes me to have the most fun in SA1 by trying to subvert the levels instead of interacting with them as intended, which is fun, but not as rewarding." This is a great way of putting it. Whenever I play SA1, I'm only there for Sonic's story and playing the levels at high skill barely involves playing them at all. With every SA2 revisit I still feel like I'm playing the game, even though I've been playing it just as long as SA1
Not to mention SA2 had a smaller team.
is there a single defender of SA2 in this comment section that DIDN'T grow up with the game? every comment boils down to, "if you master the game it becomes fun". Yeah, well it's possible to master ANY game, regardless of the jank, to eventually find it enjoyable. Just look at Ulillillia and Bubsy 3D
I didn’t grow up with it and recognize its greatness.
@@bunsmasterbunny Same. But I will admit, playing through some levels for the first time were kinda annoying. But most of those were towards the end of the game, so it at least made sense since games back then didn't really pull their punches when it came to the difficulty, whether actually hard or kinda cheap.
You did a good job of showing me a new perspective on not just this game but with the state of Sega during the development process that makes me forgive them from what I thought was baffling when it came to the story as a whole
They *did* explain why the shrine is there. Sonic said something like "They must have designed the core like the shrine to harness the power of the Chaos Emeralds."
New Golden Bolt just dropped, highlight of the day. Can't get enough of analytical content on games like this and you're some of the best out there. Keep up the good work.
dude, I thought I was crazy for enjoying Adventure 1 but not 2
This is the first one of the millions of retrospectives of these games that I agree with
That biohazard boss in the last story was so aggravating. I remember playing it for weeks on Dreamcast until I finally finished it. I felt so accomplished!
I disagree with you on almost every point but I respect that you made this monster size video. Good stuff.
He wasant there in 2001.
In 01' this game was a 10/10
One of the last good sonic games.
Sonic adventure 2 is not good. Love how he states the facts and all of you fanboys get triggered
@@LuffyxNamiisathing Congratz, you have an opinion! Now stop being an asshole. Literally nobody in this thread was triggered until you showed up
I like to think back to that one dude's video whenever I see SA2, the last good sonic game, the first bad sonic game.
@@LuffyxNamiisathing wat?
Everyone called me crazy for liking SA1 over SA2. I love the story and characters, but it’s still jank. Doesn’t make it bad, I personally would rather play SA1
1:05:06 "Is hedgehog profiling the understated reason that Amy's at Prison Island?"
_Holy shit, I'm dying._
Wouldn’t be surprised she wanted to rescue him she cared for him so much.
@@galfinsp7216
Unlike a lot of others, I didn’t start with this game, I played SA1 way back as a kid on the Dreamcast but never got to play SA2 until maybe 4 or 5 years ago, so I feel like I have a different perspective from other players as I’m not fully blinded by nostalgia as many of my peers.
I don’t remember struggling on the levels on my first run but the jank is definitely there. Grinding has always felt awkward, and homing attacks felt risky but I can honestly say the only level I struggled with was the Bio Lizard boss fight.
The story, admittedly, has a lot of holes but still honestly is better than what Forces could ever give me. (On the note of Sonic using Chaos Control, it isn’t too much of stretch considering he goes Super Sonic and has interacted with the Chaos Emeralds often enough). That doesn’t excuse Rouge had a hand in the explosion that killed a lot of people on Prison Island. This is admittedly a game that is more of a somewhat mindless run through.
Still though, I feel this is one of the better games that Sonic has been in, but I get why you don’t love it as much as everybody else and your views are fair enough. I dislike that there are people who hate on this game (and its fans) and don’t give any real insight as to why. So, I appreciate the viewpoint and I don’t ignore them, even though I am not persuaded in disliking it but I doubt that was why you made this video. This game still is one of my favorites though my next playthrough will have a different set of eyes to look through.
I enjoy these reviews still, and with this one and the review by J’s Reviews on this game, feel like I got a whole new perspective on this one. Nice work.
Oh no, not at all - my M.O. going into any video isn't to drive somebody to dislike a game, you're correct there. If anything, I'm usually yelling at people to play the game for themselves and/or driving in backstory and historical context that'll hopefully help people look at the game in a _rosier_ light! Even when I'm critical of something, I pretty much never aim to just trash it because that doesn't accomplish anything, there's enough of that out there. Critiques or praise, no matter what I hopefully try to bring it with some good vibes.
Interesting. I've often found that which 3D Sonic game people play first influences whether they like SA2 or not. Did you prefer SA1 over 2?
I played 2 first and then when trying DX (There's a mistake), couldn't get into it. I played the Dreamcast version of 1 years later and did enjoy most of it for what it was. The thing is, I acknowledge that mech and treasure hunting are flawed in SA2, but the Sonic/Shadow levels and game play are how I wish they'd do 3D Sonic today. Love the arcade-y ranking system and how Sonic controls in this game. And the Chao Garden is excellent. Such a shame they never tried to take it any further.
@@TheGoldenBolt Except Secret Agent Clank, which rightfully deserves to burn in hell, lmao.
I didn't have trouble until the Last Story, which seemed to have a huge difficulty spike.
I played 2 first, it was the only game I had for my dreamcast for a while, so I put alot of time into it, and it's awesome just how much extra content the game managed to have, with side missions and the kart racing, it made the game feel like a complete package.
Funny thing about Eggman trying to take the Master Emerald at the beginning of the game; it literally had nothing to do with his plan and he only tried to take it because he passed by en route to his next mission in the desert.
Also, while I think Mike Pollock is great as the Doctor, Deem Bristow was so great at being completely menacing and seeming like an actual threat.
“I’ve come to make an announcement “
- Eggman
I'm glad you brought up how many kids grew up with the adventure games differently sorta due to different circumstances. I grew up with SA1 first simply because my dad got a Dreamcast with the game around the same time as our PS2. I've still never played SA2 but it's definitely a memorable entry to the series thinking of all its elements and whatnot. You did an incredible job with this video, super educational and interesting hearing a different perspective on what many consider the best sonic game!
My dude, your scripting, voicrwork, and editing is incredibly tight and polished, EXCELLENT video. You earned yourself a sub
I played through this game recently for the first time! The first game was one of my favourites when I was 14 but by the time this came out I was exactly the right age to feel too old and cool for Sonic.
I had a blast playing through it but I almost entirely agree with everything you said. The space Knuckles level took me an infuriating hour to complete, and I must have used 50 lives doing the last Sonic stage thanks to never really knowing if I was gonna be able to home onto the rails.
I never understood the story but it always felt like there was cool stuff happening regardless. I think at its best this game really shines both in story and gameplay, and I just sorta forgot the bad stuff once I was done. It's a weird old game and I appreciate it as such.
It does make me wonder whether a Sonic Adventure remaster collection would actually go down well, though.
Great video, I really enjoyed it!
Apparently the sub makes more sense than the dub cause this was the era of shitty game dubs
I find that Sonic Adventure 2 is definitely a game that is at its peak once you learn the mechanics and start hunting down those A ranks.
The ranking system in general makes the game so much more addictive to me. The missions in SA1 were binary: you're told a requirement, and you either pass them or you don't. It means a lot more restarting the level and forcing you back to the beginning because your clock passed the given time, or you lost all your rings right before the goal. SA2 never tells you a solid score requirement; you just have to play well and see what rank you get at the end. Getting a B rank is just as heartbreaking as it is motivating. With just a little more of a push, stringing together just one more combo or maybe not losing your rings to that Artificial Chaos again, you can get that A rank. It also helps that you can see your highest score on each mission on the level select screen, so you have a target to aim for and beat in your next playthrough. It's an addictive, arcade-like cycle of aiming to surpass your score and getting better at the game. I've 100%'d SA2 multiple times now, but never felt any motivation to get 100% in SA1, and I think it boils down entirely to SA1's lack of a ranking system.
Frankly, as a diehard SA2 fanboy, it's my favorite Sonic game, but I can totally see where you're coming from. I kinda feel the same way about SA1; the controls are janky, the story is a ramshackle mess of nonsensical moments, and I just straight up don't enjoy it as much as SA2. SA1 is a game that you can definitely get better at if you put the time into learning the controls, exploring the levels, and working around the jank, just like SA2, but I find myself having trouble putting that kind of time into it.
If the eternal Sonic discourse has taught me anything, it's that SA2 isn't for everyone. SA2 is one of those games I will recommend to anyone with rose-tinted glasses, but I never expect anyone to actually beat it all the way through, let alone go the lengths to achieve A ranks.
It seems like you did a very good job covering this and pointing out the flaws. I appreciate that.
But one of the things you're missing, and I know it's hard for a lot of TH-camrs to talk about, is how much multiplayer matters. There's a reason the port was Sonic Adventure 2: *Battle;* to this day it's probably the best official 3D Sonic game to have multiplayer, and that aspect really transforms, and *transformed* the game. The reason it's scaled back so much is to accommodate some incredibly fun local multiplayer races. I bought Sonic Adventure 2 again recently, on a semi-public PS3, because I knew the multiplayer was fun, but I failed to realize in that moment just how good it would feel to teach other people to play this game that was so special to me, while going up against them as Metal Sonic. This multiplayer experience also feeds back into how you experience the main game, because by competing, you will grow in power and get closer and closer to obtaining that A Rank.
I really hope Sonic does another game built around its multiplayer, even in parts. Local multiplayer especially is so much fun and sells this formula so much better than open-world, metroidvania, or anything else really could. (though I'd love to see those sorts of things too, especially to sell it to people who primarily play singleplayer)
This is a really cool take, I appreciate you sharing it! I don't mean to completely wash away the multiplayer with the little gag at the end, of course - for what it is, I think it's far more involved than I expected going in, a cool 3D take on Sonic 2's slightly (or not-so-slightly) modified multiplayer stages. But since I was recording myself playing either with two controllers at once, or with one character just not moving, I didn't feel comfortable sharing any really proper opinions on it. If I couldn't get the real deal experience, I'd feel bad saying more than "it's here for those that want it, it's pretty cool" - a standard for the sometimes obligatory multiplayer modes of late 90s and early 2000s games, but a lifelong memory for those that grew up playing it!
@@TheGoldenBolt I appreciate that you appreciate it, man! I've got a lot to say about a lot of things, but I can't ever be sure if it's enough for a video. So I ramble in text instead
I hope you have a good Christmas!
@@TheGoldenBolt I love that TH-cam likes deleting my comments but there's some alternatives to trying out the local multiplayer on Steam. There's the Remote Play Together feature on Steam that lets you stream your game to an online Steam friend (no extra purchase required!). And then there's a SA2B Network mod that adds online multiplayer functions to the port... provided you'd also do the necessary setup steps to make it work.
Obviously, not as good as playing just locally with two controllers or locally on a GameCube/Wii/modified Wii U but oh well, they're alternatives to play it online.
By the way, knuckles popping out of the sewer is also my favorite scene in the game lol. Good video always love your content and appreciate the research you put in
great vid as usual but man that isao okawa guy...he really went all out to help the company he worked for. wild.
The notion that Shadow is based on the Super Sonic mural is laid out pretty blatantly in Sonic Battle (GBA), so yeah. Of all the things to be addressed from SA2, that's what got a mention.
The two Adventure games were some of the first experiences I had with videogames, as a kid I remember spending more time with SA2 because of all things, it was easier to rewatch the story cutscenes and re-enter at specific points in the narrative without having to start a new file. Nowadays the only thing I really like about it is the abundance of space levels and how absurdly involved the new Chao material is; some of the details like Chaos Chao and the Tails Chao approach "Mew under the truck" territory.
Chris lied to me. Or he told me and I forgot, everything became a blur once I started reading about Gizoids.
I really do deeply appreciate the kid-replayability angle of this game, even if it ends up leading to a sort of spotfesty story when you zoom out. It's the sort of structure built for making these deep-seated memories and covering up places where the game trips - a great call, even if it doesn't lend itself as well to deeper dives that come years later. (But then, most Sonic games struggle with these sorts of deep dives anyway, because Sonic's gameplay is actually so fast that it looks worse with TH-cam's default video codecs than it does when you're playing it. Dude can't catch a break on any level sometimes.)
Was about to say this. Sonic Battle has a ton of in-depth lore about Gerald and why he created Shadow.
Then Shadow the Hedgehog comes out and screws it all over, before they do a soft reboot for 06, before they do yet another soft reboot within 06, before they do another soft reboot with Generations...
Honestly, I'm wondering what they're going to do with Frontiers and how they screw up the story with that game.
@@Tobunari ian flynn is writing frontiers, so hopefully the story cwill be at least decent
@@voltricity1942 I dunno... I've read his Other M comic...
@@Tobunari His Sonic stuff is pretty god tier though
When I first played this game, I thought it was a regression from the first game. However, as I played it more, I began to enjoy a lot of the design choices that I initially thought were regressions. I like the level design in SA2 better than SA1’s despite being more linear because of all the things you can do to get points. In SA2 I believe the game is designed to get the most out of every part of the level. In SA1, the levels actually kind of remind me of Sonic CD, as they are quite open, but if you don’t go out of your way to explore or just take it slow, they’ll be very short and easy. I also didn’t appreciate the delayed spindash or the nerfed radar at first, but having a delayed spindash is a great way to balance it without making it suck, and while the nerfed radar doesn’t quite make sense, it does add some satisfaction for being vigilant enough to spot an emerald without radar. It’s hard to describe the main thing that makes SA2 so fun for me, but there’s something about trying to get A ranks with one try in a run that’s just fun.
But what about sonic 1 I don't see people take it slow or unleashed so why do one thing for one game but not the other
Truly growing up is being able to finally listen to people with legit reasons why Sonic Adventure 2 is a flawed game and still being able to say; I accept what you're saying and respect your view on the matter.. But I still think it's the best~
Awesome retrospective! I'm just glad I played SA2 when I was 13 after growing up on the Genesis games, because I knew it was janky as hell, but I was young enough to just enjoy the music and the set pieces and not care. Now I feel kind of nostalgic for those early days of being a Suffering Sonic Fan, haha. So ignorant of all the suffering ahead of us.
19:28 welp, that's sad to hear. SA2 is actually the last 3D Sonic game I played (after going and playing them with one or two exceptions), and I genuinely think it has the best story in a mainline Sonic game. While I do have some problems with it, I think it's better written and better paced than Sonic Adventure's
Go look at 'Some Call Me Johnny's' Review of SA2 where he talks about the story of this game. If that doesn't tell you how poorly the story is written then IDK what to tell you.
@@taylord5381 Never said he was. He just explains what want to say in a shorter time.
@@taylord5381 Bro, Do you read/comprehend or what? I said he explains in more detail the many problems with the story that I've caught as well playing the game over the years. It's no coincidence that THIS video list/complains about the same problems too in story. Too many to go over in a comment section on TH-cam. Bottomline, it's easier to understand if you watch a clip of the video.
@@natejackson1037 That video doesn't explain anything I'm trying to get across...
Since no one seems to understand what I'm talking about I timestamped a point in johnny's video that goes over a few of the plot holes. (Mainly in the last story)
th-cam.com/video/qbfXqOMf0Ak/w-d-xo.html
Everyone seems to think I'm shitting on the game not understanding that the WRITTING of the story doesn't make sense at some point. Turning your brain off, yeah it's a great epic story. But the more you go in detail, the more you realize it isn't well WRITTEN. That's all I'm saying.
@@qtippz I'll explain the points Johnny commented:
-Shadow literally says that the Ark was being used to create weapons of massive destruction, but then the military soldiers thought they were going to far with the experiments and decided to do the attack
-SA2 is a fiction story, so most of his arguments are based on how things would work in REAL LIFE, but guess what? The story is not based on real life limitations.
So Gerald Robotnik is not given the name of "greatest scientific mind in history" for no reason, in this technological world is not hard to imagine that the genius Gerald managed to secretly program the camera that was being used before his death for the file be transfered to the program that will destroy the earth.
-And also, I don't see much of a problem in recording death sentences for the sake of y'know, have some concrete file proving that a person died. Even if they'll never show to public.
-The ARK was announced to the public that it was just "shut down because of an accident" so they would have to explain why explode an gigantic city in space, not only that, but destroying it would make a lot of pieces fall on earth and potencially kill people. After they shut-down, there wasn't much reason to destroy the entire colony, since no normal people would be able to get there in the first place. Just shut down and forget that it existed was enough.
-Johnny clearly didn't pay attention to the story, obviously the colony crashing down on earth when putting the seven emeralds was made AFTER Maria's death, because right after he discovered that, he became completely insane and lost control over it's actions, making the feeling of revenge completely surpass the hope on humanity.
-His 4th point is basically the first one I pointed here, they thought they were going too far with these powerful weapons and military feared that it would cause trouble, so they decided to stop everything and do the attack. As show in lots of parts of the game and especially in Shadow the Hedgehog, the GUN is extremely agressive with his actions, if ANYTHING can cause future disasters to humanity, they don't care how far they'll have to go to eliminate, they'll throw jets flying over the city, throw bombs everywhere and even a giant truck chasing a hedgehog.
-That's literally wrong, right after Gerald was taken to the prison he WAS forced to continue his researches, because Amy questions about all the crazy math and writing on the wall that was in Sonic's jail, so he was making researches and secretly was programming all the stuff the ARK thing.
Most of the points are easy to understand by paying attention to the details, SA2 doesn't just throw all information on your face, even one small bit of dialogue or detail in the gameplay will complement the main story. Judging by how Johnny didn't pay attention to some details, I wouldn't be surprised if he said that "Eggman destroys his own robots in his levels lol", because that is not told in cutscene, but just using your head you'll realize that these aren't Eggman's robots but instead GUN robots.
Others are just arguments that tries to be logical with real life situations like "how could GUN be so extreme with their actions? How could Gerald program things while on jail?"
Well, do you find weird that the most brilhant genius in the world would be able to program things on the ARK while on Jail? Especially since he was supposed to continue doing research so he certainly had the tools like Internet and stuff.
That's why I like SA2, because it has the best Sonic story, but doesn't show with long and boring cutscenes that breaks the entire pacing, every cutscene shows everything the player has to know while having subtle info spread in short dialogues and scenes that tells more in-depth about the events. And you don't even need to see the story to understand it's gameplay, unlike SA1 where the cutscenes are important to tell the player on where to go, just press START and you can play the game just fine. So you have an awesome story that doesn't has to sacrifice the fast pacing action gameplay that Sonic must have.
When fans say "The jank doesn't bother me because I've learned to play around it" they insult game design. The art of game design is trying to remove this jank where possible. Any modern indie game released in this state would be panned. But because it's Sonic it's okay?
Yes. Sonic fans are a bunch of hypocrites, didn't you know?
yes, git gud
I just like the game...
The whole situation that Adventure 2 passed kinda of reminds me of Majora Mask
I think there's a good comparison to be made there! The smaller team, a late-console production cycle, the desire for a darker story and more replayable game structure, and the fact that it's just clicked with so many people in ways that few games really replicate. SA2's production ends up being a bit different of course, thanks to the whole "Sega on fire" thing, but it'd be interesting to imagine either game if the situation was reversed.
@@TheGoldenBolt yeah, there is an awful lot of similarites between these games, and even between other Nintendo and Sonic games....i myself always thought Mario Sunshine had some similarites with the Adventures games
@@realsalu634 For what it's worth, I tend to think of Sonic Adventure 2 as being not quite unlike Super Mario 64 in that both games boldly had a different feel than what came before or since. This makes Sonic Adventure like Yoshi's Island, in that both are very inspired by what games came before and attempts to build off of them while also trying new(ish) things.
I admit that these aren't perfect comparisons, for a number of reasons, but they still gave me some pause when they crossed my mind.
@@hyperpowerfulform5132 for me Adventure is more like Mario 64, with both bringing their series to 3D, and changing their series forever, Adventure 2 is more like Mario Sunshine, with them changing the formula, and being quite janky
I really love this video even if I don't agree with most of the points, but I understand where you are coming from. SA1 and SA2 are my favorite games of all time, but even I can see some of the issues it has mostly the story to me. There are too many plot points up to interpretation, but that lore is what kept me playing these games. I grew up with every Sonic gamecube title and even with how messy it is, it still managed to be cool in a way other platformers weren't. Aside from the Ratchet, Sly, and Jak no other platformer before really tried to focus on a story that wasn't just the same bad guy do evil things, go stop them plot that everyone copied. Even if not the best it still tried to offer more and I wish more platformers today would be like them back then only Ratchet has really kept this style.
This was such an interesting retrospective and a fun watch. Even though you ragged on one of my *favorite* games, it was engaging and informative and I got a new insight on how one of my favorite games had managed to even *exist.* I had as much of a blast watching this as the dirty dozen working on the game itself lol. Also fun note, my first games were actually the classics and I go against the grain of being one of those introduced to the series through this game. Can't wait for more videos!
I 100% fall into that "Played SA2 Battle on Gamecube before SA1" because I didn't own a Dreamcast until like 15 years later, and while I know that this game looks glorious in my head and I probably should let it stay that way. I still want to go back and replay it sooooo badly!
This is one of the extremely few times I've actually seen someone recognize and acknowledge the whole "our physics and controls _don't_ work properly, so let's tight tubes and hallways with bumper guard rails and walls" thing. It's _the_ thing that always _baffles_ me when someone says that Sonic controls and feels good in this game.
Like... no, though? The moment I'm not in a secure narrow tube or being automated, it goes whack.
Easily one of the best videos I've seen on the game. Points are well argued and substantiated with actual footage, and your experience is nearly identical to mine. My experience does sorta differ in the sense that I loved SA1 when I first played it, but recently have come to actually dislike the game. With SA2 I don't think I ever liked that game so much to begin with. Nowadays I just find more reasons to dislike it each time I replay it. But hey, you've definitely earned yourself a subscriber. And I'm on my way to watch your SA1 video.
I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the video so much, thanks for the kind words friend! It's a shame that _both_ Adventure games have fallen off (or...stayed off in 2's case), but that's just how it goes sometimes, as our interests and tastes change over time.
@@TheGoldenBolt
There are definitely aspects of SA1 that I really enjoy (Sonic's and Knuckles' stages are very fun and have solid level design, I liked the hub worlds etc.) and I'd still rather play it over SA2 any day of the week.
I'd like to take a second just to really chime in and say I'm 100% in your camp on this one, and really really resonated with all of your opinions in SA1 as well as here. There's truly something special to the titular "Adventure" in 1, and having a world that can just be slowly breathed in, and immersed inside as well as blast through if desired, made it something I can always go back to all these multitudes of years after my original days with my first dreamcast.
Inversely, despite having beat SA2 multiple multiple times over the course of my life, i find it the least rewarding to return to in my adult life, and even distinctly remember that early sense of disappointment I'd felt in it as a kid. That arcadey sense of rushing from point to point chasing high scores, while I can certainly appreciate and understand as a factor that many of you take to heart to let it elevate itself above its predecessor, I just cannot help but find takes away from what made me fall in absolute LOVE with Sonic Adventure. I love SA2 with and even without nostalgia goggles on all things considered, but more and more as I grow older I find myself understanding why games like SA1 and Shenmue were so magical for me. It's because they really felt like worlds to have an Adventure in, no matter what speed I took them on at.
You did an absolute fantastic job with this video, my man. The entire section on Sega's all too tragic collapse will never fail to make me feel something really deep cut into me as someone with deep memories of my Dreamcast and Genisis
While I disagree with you on many points, I do understand your reasoning and agree with some too. While a step back from Adventure 1 in many ways, I still really like it despite its flaws.
I do appreciate you shedding some light on Sonic Team's situation during this period too, it's always interesting to learn about and shows how much effort you put into these.
Also I chuckled at how your fan theory in the last story is explained in Sonic battle as another comment pointed out. XD
I would just like to address your bucket list of plot holes, one at a time. I'm on mobile so fuck typing each and every question out lmao. I also actively avoided applying headcanons to it unless it's an extremely obvious conclusion even just in the context of just SA2 itself.
1. Shadow can literally teleport. Duh.
2. Not a plot hole, but valid question.
3. Missiles aren't *necessarily* to destroy shit, it could be a satellite rocket. Otherwise, wars and shit.
4. Valid question.
5. Because GUN is an international organisation who don't necessarily answer to the President, hence why the President didn't just ask for the ARK files. 6.5 is valid, though.
6. Not a plot hole.
7. Not a plot hole, but valid question.
8. Not a plot hole, but valid question.
9. Because Shadow insisted that the canon wouldn't charge fast enough without the seventh emerald. Eggman probably wanted to wipe out not-USA.
10. Not a plot hole, but valid question.
11. Literally just question 10.
12. They look similar enough that if you didn't know any better you legit *could* mistake Shadow for like, an evil Sonic or smth. 12.5 is lol. 12.5.5 is not a plot hole.
13. GUN did *not* capture Sonic to enlist him, where did this question even come from.
14. This is the sort of thing that most movies would gloss over anyways, but valid question.
15. Sonic & Tails hung up on the President's call, but Shadow's comment of their threats falling on deaf ears still makes no sense.
16. Because Shadow threatened her life and is faster than her and can teleport? Duh.
17. Sonic Lost stamina pulling off a teleport for the first time. ... But then in the boss fight he spams it whenever you as Shadow leave him behind... Huh... Okay, valid question despite the game's attempts otherwise.
18. Valid question, doubly so if that was his execution video, triply so once you realise that SOMEONE would have heard him say all of that. 18.5 is a valid question.
19. Life support fucking sucks apparently lmao.
20. Incorrect analysis, but also valid analysis so is it really incorrect at the end of the day?
21. If that's the password on the ARK, valid question. Otherwise it's not a plot hole, just a weak password (seriously, 3 syllables/5 letters is baby small).
22. Valid question.
23. Not a plot hole, but is valid and I agree with you 200%.
24. Valid question.
15: In the original japanese, he just says that negotiations have failed.
17. Ehh doesnt loose stamina he just feels weird or disoriented..cuz after that doesnt he race to the cannon on the stage final rush..then fights n race shadow
I really loved the historical piece to this essay, it even introduced information that I have never heard which was really cool! I think that I do find myself disagreeing about your thoughts on the mech and treasure hunting gameplay a little though. I personally think that both of these styles are actually done better in SA2 even with some of the added frustrations like nerfed radar and mech momentum + cheap enemy placement.
For me, the Knux and Mech levels in SA1 felt a little too underbaked in the level design part of the equation. Both characters largely got repurposed Sonic levels to play around in where in SA2 the characters all have newly crafted levels that play to the strengths of the style. For example, Knux feels FAR better to play in SA2 which, for me, make stages like Meteor Herd a blast to really quickly traverse cuz his spiral dive and the rockets are fun to use (death chamber totally sucks though) and the mech stages feel fun too since they are all unique and were created with mech shooting in mind.
So in that way, I find both of these styles to be superior to their SA1 iterations. Especially since they actually did something substantial with them here. I feel like most (all cough cough) people LOVE Sonic gameplay in SA1 but mostly feel “ehh” to “alright” from Knux or Gamma. I really do think that they learned a few lessons and made general improvements but with a few design decisions that have torn the fanbase.
All in all though, I am really enjoying your video! Thanks for throwing your hat in the ring, especially when talking about such a beloved game.
Agree about the level design in SA1. SA1 is a better game than I used to give it credit for, but it definitely suffers from trying to use the same level geometry for three characters each with radically different play styles. I appreciate the attempt and that it works as well as it does, but the difference between Red Mountain and Pumpkin Hill is night and day. It's a massive difference to play a character in a level that works for them and a character in a level that was MADE for them.
Loved this video. SA2B is probably one of my favorite games of all time. I get emotional thinking about the story and the characters. I go back and play thru it about once every few months. But this is a wildly different opinion than I’m used to. I recognize that it’s nowhere close to perfect, but I love it flaws and all. I love hearing people opinions on this game, even when they’re different than my own, especially when they can back it up with evidence of that opinion as well as you did! Thank you for giving this game a fair shake!
It's funny, your experience with ironically enjoying the story of this game is exactly why I love Shadow the Hedgehog so much. For what it's worth, it's also probably the least janky game from this era of Sonic--you never have to worry about randomly deaths from the homing attack or lightspeed dash or switching rails just deciding not to work. I don't blame you for not wanting to play it, seeing as it has some of the worst individual level designs in any video game ever, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you ever do give it a try.
>you never have to worry about randomly deaths from the homing attack or lightspeed dash
In this game you have the greatest probability of dying by falling into a bottomless pit, either just because or due to broken auto aiming of a homing attack.
@@kuklama0706 nah, that shit happens WAY more often in sonic heroes
I’ve always thought that both adventure games were great, but a third would have perfected the formula! For example Knuckles’ levels were too easy in SA1 and they felt artificially harder sometimes in SA2.
Really sucks that we never got a third game :(
I think there's something else to be gleamed from the slapdash nature of this game and the wild jumps it takes in its story: this was, potentially, going to be sonic's swan song. I remember feeling it with its release. I was in the position of having been a child playing this before SA1, but because i had older brothers who owned the genesis, my earlier formative memories as a toddler were spent playing the og trilogy. So I not only had that "bubble" SA2 experience because i'd never played the much more tightly developed SA1, but i was also already a fanboy, even at that young age. So i recall being in this interesting social situation where kids my age really DIDN'T know what sonic was because the video game wars of the 90s had already come to an end and sega was on the brink at the time of SA2's release. All this to say, I think that when the devs say they had so much fun making this, i can taste a bit of bittersweetness to the tone SA2 presents at the end of its batshit story. The devs were sonic fans too, and i'd wager that they had important experiences playing the genesis games prior to working on SA2, and they knew their favorite blue blur might just be done after this. If I was a dev on a dying franchise that I loved and could really just do whatever the fuck I wanted with this because everything was burning around me, I bet SA2 would be exactly the kind of bizarre experience of a game and story that I'd make too. It's a love letter to a different time that Sonic used to exist in and how different things had become in the short few years since the height of the video game wars when Sonic was unstoppable.
Omg I thought I was the only one who felt this way about adventure 2. Great video as always man :)
YES MAN THANK YOU! I was feeling like an idiot because everybody was praising SA2 as the best 3D sonic has ever been. I dont agree I reckon Generations is peak 3D Sonic
Very well approached. I used to think too that SA2 was my favorite and after playing again 10 years after my initial time with the Dreamcast version it was not the case. I respect everyone’s opinion out there that still has the nostalgia glasses for this one but for me it’s the big beautiful mess know as Sonic Adventure that does it for me. Great video!
While I disagree with quite a bit of your points about it being sloppy, I respect your opinion. And I do agree that some of the controls/camera should've been more polished for its time.
That being said I think what makes the game so great for me where newer titles lack is the sense of "coolness". Every level from start to finish, from the way sonic enters the level, to the camera angle while he's pulling off stunts are made to give you that awesome feeling.
I also think the story was one of the best of the series.
Every time I try to play SA2 and see if I can see something in it this time, I always end up getting increasingly frustrated and just throwing it out before too long.
Everything you say from 20:55 to 22:50 resonated with me, because I slowly felt that over time going back and forth between these games on the DC for many years since the age of 14!
Oddly enough I started with SA2 on gamecube and spent most of my time in the Chao Garden trying to get a Sonic themed Chao. I had Sonic Advance for the GBA and use the link cable to transfer coins to SA2 to fund fruits to feed my Chao lol. Thanks for this breakdown!
24:53 The new idea that was implemented was the updated scoring and ranking system. Proper lock on chains are the aim of the mech levels and that's why they're longer; it isn't so much a race against the clock anymore like with Gamma. All the levels in the game are story beats as well, so their length lets the current objective sit for a little while.
28:39 "Don't let it hit ya, move!"
39:42 I won't lie, you're looking like an IGN player with the button mash approach to the homing attack here. Now that enemy chain IS a little finnicky, but your case is pretty bad when any seasoned player looks at these homing attacks that refuse to hold the jump button down to gain more height off of said homing attacks.
44:50 "Operational blindness" is some major cope. Sonic The Hedgehog 1's levels do not change. The badnik placement does not change. Replaying the levels will cause a player to know what to expect and reach the flow state through practice. This is a core Sonic design tenant seen in probably every mainline game. Many games in the series are tough for new players because reaction times to the obstacles aren't honed. The last time I thought that G.U.N. robot dropping down in City Escape was when I last played City Escape because after many replays that THE GAME ENCOURAGES I think, either consciously or subconsciously, "Sonic is gonna get his shit kicked in if I don't go ball form here."
48:48 He's doin his own thing in certain spots in the levels and we love him for that
53:37 Rouge is always keeping an eye on her own personal agenda over her boss's and even Eggman's. She likely teams up with these would-be world dominators in order to gain a massive fortune of jewels, we just aren't explicitly told this because why would Rouge ever say that? She's a character who always keeps her cards close to her chest (deep in the cleavage) and not many characters know her true motives; this isn't just for SA2's story but for any one of her appearances. The only part of her mission that's "government approved" is finding out the truth of Project Shadow. Everything else (Master Emerald, attacking a military prison base, giving the villains intel) in her mind is fair game.
54:13 From Eggman's missile, ALL'S WELL THAT ENDS WELL, RIGHT?
57:32 I think it's the Sonic fan perspective versus the typical gamer/platformer enjoyer perspective. Sonic is always pretty crazy when compared to other beloved titles and series' so Sonic fans tend to compare the game to its own series, and frankly the stories' STAKES have almost never been higher than with SA2. That's why it's so beloved, it pushed the fans' favorite characters to a limit in a plot that on the surface could use better execution, but under the hood is extremely compelling, and that hasn't quite been matched.
1:01:38 Oh shush you know you love it when cartoon animals get a bit dark; Ratchet does stuff like this too.
1:02:38 So you kinda break this point later in the video because you see the theory of Gerald going to Lost World and Angel Island for possible Chaos Emerald and Echidna tribe research. The game is not obligated to explain this, this is stuff for the die hards of the series to discover and make their own connections to. And yeah that's what makes this game in particular the most replayable Sonic game for me, because I refused to take the story at its goofy surface level. There is something more there and it's the best Sonic plot because of that. And fine, you don't like it, not everybody will!
1:04:05 refer to 39:42, I think YOU'RE bad at the but not gonna take away the criticism of the rest of the Biolizard fight because the other points are fair.
1:05:04 I have answers to quite a lot of these but this comment is too long.
OKAY, THIS WAS A GOOD VIDEO! I like hearing your thoughts, your gags, and your criticisms. I acknowledge my bias for my favorite Sonic game. I acknowledge it is far from perfect; I've always believed SA2 to be the best Sonic game but it REALLY shouldn't have to be the best one. I tried matching some serious counterpoints with some jokes for certain statements in the video (I know some may be harsh but I do not intend for them to take away what I think about you as a person or content creator!) and you may not even read them, but I hope you read this:
Thank you for this Sonic content as I wait to play R&C Rift Apart after the holidays. When I finish that, I do want to go and watch your R&C retrospectives, but the content on my favorite series has been very engaging and entertaining. At least we both agree to never, EVER play Shadow The Hedgehog. Fuck yeah Big is my dad.
I appreciate the kind words, friend! I obviously can't break down all of the timestamped parts one by one, but I'll touch on one that I think folks generally misunderstand when it comes to video editing: For what it's worth, I made it a point to use (and have my editor use) as much of my pure first playthrough footage here as possible, much as I did with SA1 - rather than the later b-roll of me doing Emblems and actually trying to get A-Ranks and whatnot. Playing this game in the same slower, absorb the moment, explore style doesn't quite look as good to a seasoned player as it might in SA1, so I went in knowing that editing in this way was going to get me flak!
It inevitably gets that sort of IGN Gamer TM comparison, but the other side is that I'm often intentionally recording footage in such a way to make it easier to edit. Not in the sense of intentionally playing badly, of course - that's as dishonest as one can be. So like, that clip, for example, was I believe the one from my first run of the level, and I actually just paused for a second confused when the homing attack failed me. Like, my brain short-circuited because of the pure "wait what even the hell," as I was laughing and confused. I made it a point when I ran into that weird seam on Mad Space's moon where the relative "forward" stick direction changers and Rouge does the figure 8 spin, to record more than 2-3 seconds of it so that I had it for later in case I wanted to bring it up. Even when I understood the homing attack (or thought I did) and I played the homing attack chains very slowly and methodically since that's how this game's version works best, it still hit me with some random shit with the bubbles that you said is just me being bad!
It's a hard tightrope to walk - playing a game fresh as if for the first time while also being cognizant of the fact that you have to take notes and if you notice something weird you have to let it sit for a second, all of that - but it's incredibly helpful in cases like this one (again, even if as a result I'll get folks that call me shit at a game I'm probably better at than them). And for the record, I don't think you're doing that! It's just one of those things that's easy to poke at especially for the folks that really want to discredit somebody, but in reality when you're recording gameplay it's a very naked experience unless you really want to make yourself look good at the cost of the product you're making. That's the same reason I empathize with any and all streamers that make a dumb gameplay mistake on-air - from experience, my brain just shuts down sometimes when I stream because I'm managing 14 things at once lol. When a creator is recording the initial gameplay, they're thinking like four or five phases ahead in production at the same time to scriptwriting, to editing, to the audience response, even when we're not playing a game for a video we can't turn it off - it's constant analysis, notes, "maybe I should record this just in case I wanna make a video," all games end up becoming a bit of work. It's a great problem to have, and I'm grateful for it! But it's something that by and large video audiences don't really fully grasp, if that makes sense! One day I'll do a video on the second channel about that, because it's a fascinating conversation to have.
@@TheGoldenBolt You're totally right, and honestly the hyper refinement of SA2 mechanics compared to SA1 ones makes it so that first time players WILL have different experiences with the controls. At not many points did your SA1 gameplay look super newbie because, imo, there's less skill refinement in that game. In not my own words, Sonic in SA1 moves around a bit like a paint brush; it'll look like a smooth stroke no matter who is playing. Now in my own words, the tougher, jittery controls of SA2 is a sorta like walking an energetic dog on a leash. A less experienced dog owner might struggle with the dog pulling them around but a more experienced owner will take control while also meeting on the dog's playing field, maybe running with the dog but still controlling where the owner wants to go. Now you can forgive a rambunctious dog but you can't forgive jank as easily, and this is where that asterisk that so many Sonic games tend to have comes into play.
Basically, Sonic discussion loops as much as the blue guy does. I'm always here for it though.
@@MAXfutbol8338 I should hop in real quick to defend some honor regarding 39:42 lol. That Green Forest homing attack footage was actually something I recorded to help get TGB's point across as clearly as possible during the editing process. I don't feel like the game adequately teaches "use the homing attack, hold the button, and wait to use the homing attack again", especially when a fair few of the teaching moments seem to be trial by fire sequences where you're placed over bottomless pits. This is a weaker point, but there are also the Gold Beetles which disappear quickly. To me at least, growing up with this game, it taught me to do it as quickly as possible and then just wonder why the homing attack randomly stopped working. SA2 DC's instruction manual only says "You can attack the enemy nearby. You can even attack series of enemies continuously.", which would have been a good place to help convey how they wanted a player to use it more specifically. It's a habit I'm still struggling to break as an adult haha.
There's some Sky Rail footage of TGB's I tossed in a couple times where at the end of the level Shadow just uncurls on his way to homing in on another Beetle. Unfortunately, SA2 is just like that sometimes lol. That said, either way, it's incredibly refreshing to see someone break down their thoughts on an opinion video *kindly* and respectfully, so thank you for doing so.
I don't think the "operational blindness" stuff is so much about knowing the stage layout (the City Escape robot was a bad example imo), I think it's more about being able to avoid jank which isn't even part of the deliberate level design, such as "holding forward at the start of White Jungle" and "the light speed dash into the pulley that doesn't work (at 44:15)." There are definitely moments like that in SA2-moments of unintuitive or unsatisfying control requirements that you just get used to over replays-though I think games like Sonic Heroes have it much worse.
@@MykonosFan Interesting. I never had that problem while playing. Must be an issue with the Dreamcast version.
Thanks for this video, now so many issues of this game make sense to me. I just realized when watching this that I did not finish the game back then on my dreamcast. Actually this game broke my trust in the Sonic games, although I called myself a Sonic-Fan up to this point after playing every Sonic game on the Master System, Mega Drive/Genesis and the first Sonic Adventure.
I appreciate hearing your take on the game. Regardless about you liking or disliking the game, it's more important that you made your case well and in a way lets other see where you come from. If anything this review made me love the game even more. When production is that bad yet the game produced is still considered one of the fandom all time favs you know you turned lead into gold. That should be just as respected in my view.
I gotta say, i love these videos. It's fun hearing what you have to say about them and the info you share.
Just curious, but do you have plans to do this for any game in the Metal Gear series?
Believe it or not, I've not played all that much Metal Gear! I've played a decent bit of MGS1, a chunk of MGSV back when it was released for PS Plus, but I think that's about it. Eventually I'd like to give it a look here, but my current M.O. is that I'd wanna bring something new to the table to do it. I had a pretty funny idea in mind recently for a specific Metal Gear project that I might jump on, but a proper Metal Gear retrospective saga very much lands in "eventually" for now!
@@TheGoldenBolt Oh, that's good to know. Almost done with this vid. Something i have to agree with no matter how much i love the game is that they shouldn't have put everything in a single button. The same was done with Balan wonderworld and it seems like it didn't end up well.
While I love SA2, I think it’s good to sometimes listen to opposing viewpoints, and understand why some people may not like the game.
This, alongside J’s review, give a healthy balance to both sides. J saying why he things the game is great, and this offering opposing viewpoints. It gives a good view of both sides!
Great video!
I have to disagree to SA2 being a bad game; I think that, as ironic as it seems, SA1 and SA2 cannot be compared one to one because of the different focuses they have; SA1 focus more on the exploration and it literally tries to bring the Classic Sonic gameplay to 3D (it even has the "Classic games" charm). SA2 wants to experiment more, at the Sonic/Shadow stages they sacrificed exploration in favor of more speed (the flow of the speed in this game, once you master its gameplay, is incredible, and I really like it), a design choice that I believe would eventually evolve into the boost gameplay; I agree that it is annoying that the roll and the light speed dash use the same button, and that the homing attack wasn't as good as in SA1, however, I think these are problems only beginners will experiment (because I sure did when I first played it, and it was really annoying), but once you begin to understand how the game mechanics work (by replaying it), they stop to be an annoyance; the rail grinding has its problems, no doubt, but then again, is about knowing how it works (but I still think Sonic Team should have refined SA2's rail grinding instead of completely revamping it for Sonic Heroes). The mech stages aren't bad, but I do have two problems that I agree with that make me hate them (and which overall, made them a downgrade from Gamma stages), this is how slow, heavy, and horrible to turn the mechs feel, this also makes it so that rapidly upcoming hazards feel REALLY unfair, even when you memorize them (which I don't think are a problem for Sonic stages giving his fast movement and attacks), also some of them can be really long, but I don't think any of them actually have bad level design. The treasure hunting stages were alright, maybe at the beggining they can feel overwhelming, but once again, when you master it, they can be fun, however, this doesn't mean they didn't had any problems, mostly that the shards radar was greatly downgraded from SA1, it is imprecise and cannot detect multiple shards at once ; I didn't liked Death chamber (and its Rouge counterpart) because of how long and confusing it can be, even after replaying it for quite a few times, however, the worst one is probably Aquatic Mine, it has the same problems as Death Chamber, but also add to it that if you don't have the upgrade that lets you breathe underwater, it becomes absolute hell. My biggest problem with SA2 would be the constant change of gameplay, it would have been nicer to be able to play as just one character throughout the story (like in SA1), and I really missed the hub world with all its charismatic people.
I don't think SA2 is a bad game, it undoubtedly has flaws, but that doesn't mean is trash, this is coming from someone who played SA1 first, and came with the mentality that SA2 wasn't even gonna come close to its predecessor. I still prefer SA1 to SA2, but SA2 is still one of my favorites, the rewarding feel of mastering it, of having an A rank on all missions, is something I really loved from SA2.
I just wanna point out, saying you can't compare them is not a great argument. It's a direct sequel. You can't NOT compare it. That is literally just an excuse, and makes your argument start out on the very wrong foot.. Also, even as someone who loves SA2, you just wrote an essay about disagreeing, where you just actually agreed the whole time. If you're gonna disagree, you gotta stick to what your opinion is, otherwise that's just called agreeing and means you in fact, share his opinion.
He doesn't call it a bad game, he calls it messy, and honestly, all of his points I agree with. Again, as someone who loves this game, I clicked on this video thinking he was wrong. I went into this video wanting to know he's wrong and that he, "just didn't do it right," which is what everyone else in this thread is incorrectly telling him. But the more he laid everything out, and the more he talked about the issues, the more I remember how much they happened to me no matter how good at the game I got, I share that dismay in it's broken and unreliable mechanics. And I respect the hell out of him for changing my point of view and taking my nostalgia glasses off. And tbh, even then I'm really proud to say that even after finishing the video I still wholeheartedly love the game despite the apparent issues. Jank and all. Deadass gonna start another playthrough when I finish writing this.
Like he says, it's okay to love something amidst, and/or BECAUSE of, its faults. Just because you like it doesn't mean you have to defend it tooth and nail. (Which, again, you kinda didn't. You just proved him right.) It's okay to accept something of lesser quality for the sake of your own enjoyment and what you like. Or to more accurately, and less antagonistically phrase it, find merits in something that others might deem as lesser quality, because what's more important is how you feel about it as a whole and what YOU get out of it as far as YOUR own enjoyment. Just play games. :)
@@MatchstickMan I'll have to agree with you because I don't remember what the video said and why I typed what I typed lol. However, I'll tell you this, you can agree with some points of an argument and still disagree with the premise, you don't have to go full opposite to all the arguments a premise states; although I think this can only be said when you only agree with some points and not with most of them.
@Knuckles_la_Enchilada 🤣 Love the honesty, man. Genuinely laughed. Anyway, I respect the take. It just seemed to me like you were agreeing with most of them, but it's a long ass video, so I acknowledge your point all the same.
Aw, I'm really disappointed you didn't enjoy what I consider the best game in the series. I think it improved on Adventure massively and it really sucks that you won't get that experience as well. :(
Hey, it's okay, that happens! I'm glad I gave it a shot anyway, because even if it didn't end up clicking for me (and hell, even if I ended up with more issues than I had way back when I first played it), I can absolutely appreciate SA2 better now in the context of its development.
Plus, even with this video out, I'd still like to go back in and get more of the Emblems just...really just because I like collecting things, so I'm not quite done with the game yet! I ended up somewhere in the 70s or 80s before I stopped and knew that they weren't really making a difference in what I had to say, and while I'll never end up actually doing all the Chao stuff since it's just not my cup of tea, I'd like to at least do most of the stage Emblems eventually. Probably not all A-Ranks...actually definitely not all A-Ranks, but hey!
This exactly how I feel watching this video lol oh well still considered one of the most beloved sonic games in the series LOL I also don’t understand the SA1 wank because I’ve played it and didn’t enjoy it nearly as much as SA2z
@@TheGoldenBolt Sonic Adventure 2 is actually quite forgiving with A ranks. Especially if you destroy the gold beetle in every level they appear in.
@@paulbell3682 Destroy the what?
@@ayrtonjoga Gold G.U.N beetles.
So I REALLY dont wanna sound like a jerk. Sonic Adventure 2 is one of my faveorite games of all time, and understand its not a fantastically made game. It was one of my first video games.
And i know it wasnt intentional but it just felt like a lot of this video had a sarcastic grin and i know you didnt want to come off like everyone else thats unfairly judged a game. But parts felt like thats what your were doing? Its hard to put into words. SA and SA2 are two different games that derive enjoyment in very different ways. The enjoyment i get from SA2 i get not from exploration, i enjoy it from a point of mastery. The ranking system is like the core of SA2. The reason i would replay all the stages to master the rank is the sense of accomplishment of "A Rank" its why i love character action games like dmc and bayonetta.
Again i dont wanna sound like im...trying to shit on you for having a different opinion its just. I feel like it wouldve made more sense if you had just said you disliked the game without the asterisk of "but i get it" god this whole this does probably sound mean. Again sorry if it does. I just really love SA2
Don't ask why I'm up at 5:30am, it won't end well for me.
I'd say more of what I'm trying to get at throughout the video is something I say towards the middle: That this is SA _2_ and that I'm coming in with that perspective of somebody who did just come to love the first game. There are enough takes out there from folks that grew up with SA2 first, or from folks that are total outsiders that tend to look at a game in the modern light rather than including historical perspective. Those are both valid takes, although the latter sadly often end up cynical. (Note: There are also some takes from day one fans of Sonic, the Johnnies of the world!)
But something that often gets passed over to me is not the comparison between SA1 and 2, but the historical context behind both of them as individual games _and_ as a series. I mean, I feel like I've had at least a hundred comments alone that were equally mind blown by SA1's Japanese release date landing so close to Zelda - it explains so much in the same way that SA2's tiny development team does! SA2 can be a very different game than 1, but in turn I don't feel obligated to ignore the first game's different structure when this is aiming to be a direct sequel by name. If this were Sonic & Shadow, most of that flies out the window, but since I can sort of cover both the perspective of the Dreamcast SA1 fan coming into 2 and the relative outsider who finally "got" it, I wanted to share both of these since I very much end up feeling both of them throughout (and since, again, much of the SA2 discourse in video form comes from very different angles than either of these)!
Now of course, I don't aim to judge SA2 _solely_ by the standard of 1, as I mention in the video. It's a shame that I also feel that separately from that, it falls short - I love what it does for replayability, truly, but it comes with stages I just don't want to replay. Pure value is there for those that came in as kids, but it's exactly the game I'd only have come close to completing back in 2001 because I only had a few games, not necessarily because I loved the game. And shit, I say that as somebody who got about half of the stage emblems and will almost definitely go back to get most of what's left! If I could 100% SA1 (Chao notwithstanding, I absolutely cheated to get the Chao emblems, I don't have the free time for that!), I can get at least 120 in SA2.
Anyway, I digress!
Lovely Mio pfp there.
SA2 is a fantastically made game, what in the world?
...Why isn't it fair to compare a sequel to its predecessor? You'd have a point if this were Sonic Heroes being compared to Adventure 2, or even Shadow. But... Sonic Adventure *1* vs. Sonic Adventure *2*...seems like a pretty fair comparison?
Apologies for the long winded reply. I'm a TH-cam Essayist myself, so as you can imagine, once I get going it's a bit hard to turn the faucet off.
At first I was a little bummed by how much more dismissive you were of SA2, but as I kept watching, this really began to remind me of the sorts of long, angry arguments me and my friends used to have over this game. Among my online friend group (all long time Sonic fans, might I add), Sonic Adventure 2 was an *extremely* divisive game when it first released in 2001. I was on the side that SA2 was "soulless." The plot was overloaded with anime tropes, and as you point out again and again, the gameplay was not only dramatically scaled back, but hampered by frustrating control limitations. I ended up agreeing with a lot of your video here, because I had a lot of the exact same complaints 20 years ago when the game first came out.
In the intervening years, I have learned to love the Sonic parts of the game a lot more. I think Errant Signal put it best with his comparison to something like a rhythm game like Guitar Hero. Yes, the sense of exploration is gone, but the game is more about executing a sequence of events under a strict timing limit. It's definitely more interactive (and certainly more intense) than a QTE. All the fun comes from trying to nail that one clean run in order to earn a high grade in the ranking system. Look at games like Thumper and it's sort of a similar idea. A lot of trial and error (aka practice) in order to turn in a perfect, error-free performance.
And that is, I think, the basis that fueled pretty much every Sonic game going forward. Heroes, Sonic Rush, Sonic Unleashed, etc. Until around Sonic Generations, but that's a video I've been trying to find the words and produce for years. ;)
Also you put SA2's development in to a context I never realized before, what with the team being so small. It really does cast a whole new light on all the game's shortcomings. As a life-long Sonic fan, I feel a little taken aback that I never really put it all together like this before.
Ohhhhhh I didn't expect sonic adventure 2 retrospective to be released so quick 😍😍
"The shrine being on the ark is never explained" He says as the subtitles for the footage explain it. That said, awesome video. Made me want to go back and see if this game truly is as I remember from childhood.
I thought for sure they did explain why it was there.
Thanks I was about to comment the same thing lol
Yeah he really wasn’t thinking at all in the story critique
Final thoughts after completing everything in the video.
SA2 gets a lot of slack from people that genuinely hate Sonic and look for any opportunity they can to dunk on fans of his. It does make sonic fans quite defensive about things. Not a lot of people are toxic. The defenders are also not blind loyalist that have only played the game once when they were children. They may have played it back then but they can pick it up today and still enjoy the game. It can't all be nostalgia that makes these people like the game so enjoyment of that nature should never be written off as nostalgia.
Final comment for the thread. I'm just a guy who has loved Sonic since his late mother bought him Sonic the Hedgehog 1 on the Sega Genesis.
I noted this in another comment somewhere, but I do want to say again that in my case here, I'm not just saying that anybody that likes SA2 was a kid when they first played it - I'm adding the context that SA2B was played by a couple million people, many of whom _did_ play the game first. The jaded outside opinion will tend to assume that only Sonic fans like SA2, when in reality SA2 _created_ more Sonic fans than most other Sonic games! It happens that my favorite series went through something like this back in 2016, it's why I'm so cognizant of the weird skew that online discussions inevitably have. That tends to get glossed over when folks discuss the game, I've noticed - hell, it took me up until doing the research for SA1's video to really recognize for myself that SA2 came to GameCube first, and I'm a total nerd for game history and timelines like that.
It's a way to hopefully chip at the wall that sometimes goes up surrounding this game, both for those that hold it so dearly to their hearts and won't hear any debate, AND for those that just assume it's garbage because TH-cam said so. (In fact, this is only going to become more and more relevant as those folks that _did_ grow up on games like SA2 Battle, or Heroes, or any of the mid-2000s games, end up at the age where they might start doing something like content creation, where they can influence the overall discussion. I'm expecting that we'll be seeing some more of that in the coming years, and the general opinion will go through a long-needed correction.) In short, a little bit of empathy goes a long way; even though I might end up pretty critical of the game, I want to share that empathy and try and raise up any game I'm covering so that folks can hopefully see at least some new light in it!
@@TheGoldenBolt It was a well thought out retrospective even if at times some of it was more of hat has been said before by detractors. Least in this video its not coming off as a way to insult the game or its fans.
Sonic Heroes discourse is not as polarizing as SA1 or SA2. If you do ever touch that game you'll likely hate it or love it. That is how the game normally goes.
Shadow The Hedgehog and Sonic 06 are games I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. A retrospective on either would be interesting but I would not ask that of anyone.
Fan of the retrospectives but the adventure games are ones I have investment so I commented more on them than I typically do on anyone's content.
Last thing. SA2 had the better chao garden and I will duel anyone who says differently. That is an objective fact.
regarding your comments on Spyro releasing in Japan:
Spyro 1 had a different camera angle and slower movement speed in the Japanese version, which made the gameplay WAY more clunky and awkward and frustrating (which is likely part of the reason Spyro was generally un-successful in Japan at the time). Most of the cool level-of-detail scaling wasn't visible in the Japanese verison due to the different camera angle, so citing that as a potential inspiration for distance fog is kind of moot since that doesn't really apply to the Japanese version specifically.
That's fascinating, I knew about Spyro's camera adjustments in Japan (in part because it was something that was factored into R&C's production), but I hadn't considered that it'd effectively neuter the LOD as an unintended consequence. Great shout!
The Golden Bolt, this is the first time someone has opened my eyes to my favorite video game of all time, I've played a lot of games but there's something about this game that I always came back to. Now that I look at it might have just been nostalgia but you've help me see the truth about this game, I played about 15 years ago when i was still young and it's one of the only games I've beat 100% countless times. Even my opinion is the same and love it the same, I can see why this game always felt a bit off, this is hands down the best retrospective/review of the game I've seen, I would love to see a Shadow the Hedgehog one, the different story routes are pretty interesting.
I love you’r content keep it up❤️
I didn't play either adventure games until 3 months ago (My first Sonic game was Colors), so I don't really think I'm nostalgic or anything, but after playing both games back to back, I enjoy SA2 much more.
While I think SA1's Sonic controls were smoother than SA2, given how SA2's level design is, the controls work well enough (minus the light dash button) and maximizing points using the environment is still lots of fun. (Side note: I really did not like playing pinball or using bumper cars in SA1).
SA2's treasure hunting is actually my favorite gameplay style in the entire Sonic series, and Knuckles controls smoother than SA1 when it comes to things like digging, climbing and gliding, with the addition of drill diving being a very effective way to descend, allowing faster traversal. I actually like how large the stages are, and if every stage were the size of wild canyon, I wouldn't like them half as much as I do.
Honestly, if SEGA ever makes a spinoff of nothing but treasure hunting, it would be my favorite game ever.
The only thing I think is an obvious regression from SA1 are the mech stages, but mostly just because losing momentum when turning just breaks everything. This can be somewhat fixed by jumping every time you want to turn, but it's really not that great. I remember getting a physics mod that "fixes" the mech characters, and I actually had more fun than I did with Gamma.
Overall this was a well researched, interesting analysis, and I definitely agree that SA2 is very, very difficult to learn to love.
If you're a big fan of SA2's hunting, there are speedrunning categories where you play individual stages a bunch of times to test overall knowledge, or the centurion categories which have you play 100 stages for rouge or knuckles respectively. They're very fun to run with an extremely high skill ceiling.
I have to say that I do enjoy the history you talk about the Development this game went into. There were things I haven't heard from other SA2 videos. I don't really agree with a lot of what you had to say with the game itself. I do agree the enemies can be a pain in the ass in SA2 even after playing this game for almost over 20 years. And the camera is not the best. But I always felt this game was a big improvement over the last game. I say this as someone who plays both Adventure games a lot and was my first Sonic games. And I am pretty seasoned at the games. But I don't really remember not trusting the controls as a kid besides grinding maybe. Even then I have gotten the hang of them more. I even really enjoy the treasure hunting stages a lot mostly because I can fly around and just explore. And If I want to find the emeralds fast it isn't too hard to do. Eggman's mech stages are fun, but I really don't like Tail's mech stages. I feel those are pretty bad honestly. I even really enjoy the story and appreciate more even from when I was a kid. I do appreciate that you were respectful in this video cause most that don't like this game are extremely harsh, and even mean to the people that love it. I'm happy you even gave it a second chance where most would just write it off as bad and never try it again. It's nice to see this point of view from someone. I apologize if me telling some points I don't agree on comes off as me trying to be super defensive of this game. People have just been very vindictive towards it for a long time now. But I overall really enjoyed your video, your history on it was informative. While SA2 might not be for you, I understand why it isn't. Thanks again for being respectful to this game and others that love it. Keep these kind of videos going man.
Checked out a few of your videos... you're good, man. Have this game design addict's subscription.
You're too kind friend, thank you - and welcome aboard!
Low hanging fruit at 1:04:55, knew you couldn't resist, proud of you!!!! (Guess I got look up "Escape from the City" now")
"Sonic Adventure 2 is the reason I have trust issues."
This was a good watch. I personally have been playing sonic games sense Sonic the Hedgehog on genesis. I grew up with those games along side some others. So I was there when Sonic made the transition to 3D. We pretty much share the same opinions when it comes to gameplay I have always thought SA1 was a much better game to play through compared to SA2, SA1 sonic is the best 3D sonic we've ever gotten to date. The Shooting and treasure hunting were big downgrades from the previous title. The Running stages while fun were also a step back. However where I disagree is the story, I think this is one of the best if not the best story in the whole franchise. This is not something I've thought from the beginning. I've been back and forth on this topic for a long time but I've finally come to that conclusion. There are so many little nuanced things to look out for I could be here all day. I maybe have played through the story too much and watched too much content dissecting the writing to small details. I've genuinely found so much to love about the story in the game over the years I've built a little appreciative space in my heart for this game. I'll always prefer SA1 to SA2 but the story...I wish the series had writing like this again it got me so invested, enough to come back to it multiple times.
Another Sonic Adventure review is always welcome whether positive or negative its always neat hearing others takes on it since I grew with Adventure 1
The part where you give your theory on Gerald is actually spot on to what the actual story of it is!
Gerald explored ancient ruins before he began his work as a scientist and often loved the echidna culture, enough so that he ended up making the shrine based off the echidna shrine.
Sorry if it’s out of nowhere but you’re correct.
Could you provide the particular events in the story that “just happen”? Because I’m drawing a blank. You use the moon as your primary exhibit, but it’s stated in game that he blasts the moon in order to demonstrate the cannon’s power, and threaten the earth. That isn’t “no reason”.
Maybe others could provide such examples, I know it’s a little presumptuous to expect the content creator to respond to this. But it is a point I’m stuck on,
I could name a couple. Like amy just appearing on the boat.
I mean gerald and the bio lizard kinda come out of nowhere in the last story
@@fightingmedialounge519 And then said "boat" being nowhere to be found.
@@DLxxx no I mean like the actual battle ship where she hugged shadow.
@@SuperSireBoyYT Well, actually Eggman does state that he only knew about the 'top secret military weapon' because of his grandfather's diary. And the Biolizard is on the screen as well as the results Rouge printed out while she was talking to Shadow before Final Chase. So not completely out of nowhere.
i first played this game about 2/3 years ago, and i basically forced myself to finish it.. i also had the same issues with it as you did when it comes to gameplay, and i even tried to replay it recently (i didnt even know this about this video until yesterday) cause i actually had the same "i should give it another, FAIR shot" mindset. after replaying 1 stage i just put the controller down and went "no. no more. i dont wanna touch this game ever again" and felt like uninstalling (but was too lazy to do that for whatever reason). i know some will think thats a bit extreme, but i just couldnt stomach playing this game again, that one stage served as a reminder of just why i didnt want to do that to myself
I felt deeply saddened when I saw this was the only video on TH-cam with the hashtag "BigsYourDad"
Nice video looking forward to the next one
I may disagree but this is an amazing retropective.
I HATE Adventure 2. I only like SOME levels, but most of the game makes my brain leak out of my ear.
I agree that Isao Okawa needs a documentary of his own. From what little I've gleaned of the man through your coverage, he was an inspirational human being.
The chaos garden in SA2 was saucyyyy. You left that part out. Loved the chaos garden that game :))
Excellent job documenting and displaying your experience with this game.
For me, the biggest standout from this video is the Sonic Adventure 2 development, and SEGA's massive company restructuring that occurred in the late 90's-2000's. I'm a bit of an older than many current day Sonic fans, as I grew up with Sonic in the 90's and early 2000's. A lot of information on SEGA and Sonic Team during this time, is relatively unknown, and largely undocumented by the modern gaming press and media!
I think this documentation is important, because it fights the narrative that Sonic Team, with all of their best efforts, just haphazardly and intentionally puts out mediocre titles, and bumbling their way through the gaming industry.
Especially with the passing trend of intentionally showcasing and highlighting Sonic games in a dishonest light. (GameGrumps, IGN, etc.)
I think historical context is important with looking at media, both new and old, and it helps us understand the creators intent, as well as struggles with the creation process.
We don't all have to like the same thing, but we can at least understand it.
I think Gerald Robotnick miscalculated on who the ultimate lifeform is, because it's clearly Big.
Great retrospective on SA2! Even though I have fond memories of this on GC, in recent years I go back to SA1 (on PC with mods) because it's so charming. Idk a better way to describe it lol
It’s awesome to see someone articulate some of my issues with this game. I differ in some key areas (i.e. I’m much less of a fan of SA1). Even so, good stuff.
So many people complain about the shooting and treasure hunting maps and say they know exactly how to fix them, yet it always comes down to literally 2 sides wanting QUITE LITERALLY THE EXACT OPPOSITE of one another. Then there's the 3rd side that wanted all non speed stages gone... And then complain that Sonic games are getting boring and samey since you only play as Sonic.
Also. Same argument about speed stages playing themselves and taking control away being bad. Watch the playthroughs of 3d Sonic games that give you more freedom and less automation. People complained that they couldn't control the character, the speed makes them motion sick, and all other manner of complaining.
Part of the reason Sonic games can't fix themselves is that playing a game where characters move this fast requires skill and getting good, while others get mad and don't want to play anything more than something dirt easy to play. The other part is that Sega devs listen to fans to "fix" games and Sonic fans are so polarized on how a sonic game should play, it makes political parties in America blush.
While I disagree with most of the points you made, I am happy to see someone who not only has a different view point but also isn’t trying to put the game in a bad light. I also agree with you on the treasure hunting levels where the vague hints made it feel like an actual treasure hunt.
I watched both of your videos and think they're great. It's truly astonishing to see how opinions can change on these classics over time and I think you did incredible work in creating invisible but everpresent continuity through pacing and editing, an interesting dive through most aspects of both games, and fill it with a lot of empathy and consideration for fans and developers alike.
I hit a bit in this video that's a bit of a pet peeve of mine as a developer but took some time to consider perspective. Around the 28-29 minute mark, in the Mech and Treasure Hunting chapter, you start suggesting ways to enhance the mech sections. You preface the suggestion by saying that you understand that they were already strapped for time, but following it up with a suggestion that the mechs have different ammo types which affect enemies differently which can be switched through, and adding more functionality to the controller buttons, suggests that maybe you don't understand how much of an addition these features would be. You're talking new UI, new writing and VA for Omochao's instructions which will likely need to come up every time the new items are useful, new graphics and animations for the weapons on the player models, the weapons as pickup upgrades, the projectiles which would accompany the upgrades as they're selected, new sfx for the weapon being used, etc. And then, on top of that you'd need to add new enemies which requires new sounds, models, texture work, and programming to be enemies specifically damaged by these new weapons. On top of all of that, you would now need to add additional behaviors to all of the existing enemies for when they interact with the new weapons. Once you've done that colossal amount of new work, you now need to actually design the levels around this additional complication, work out design for how these buttons would be implemented on a controller, find the best way to port these buttons' functionalities to other hardware where applicable- and every single step of that needs to be debugged and fine-tuned if it has any chance of being anything other than a buggy piece of bloat. All of this, also, at a time when workflow in gamedesign wasn't quite as streamlined and built for iteration as it is now.
You continue to say that "for some reason" they wanted to keep things simple. You mention right at the beginning of this bit that they were strapped for time. Additionally, I can think of dozens of reasons that you would not want the controller's scheme to be a mess of different commands of equal importance when your target demographic is the audience coming from the game which recently was on a console with 3 face buttons which all just made Sonic jump.
I guess what I'm saying is that your game design advice could probably use a bit more understanding of the process and considerations. Your video really soars when you discuss your perspective and the history, but when you speculate and play armchair gamedev I really get the impression you aren't aware of some of your blindspots. If you meant to begin that bit by making clear that you were respectful of their time, then I guess it came off rough to me because that makes it seem like you're actually not respecting the work.
Hey William! I don't talk about it often because it usually doesn't matter, but I've done my share of coding work for game projects in the past, and have a degree in the field! The games I was working on were mostly hobbyist projects, but I've had to make my fair share of last minute adjustments on projects that completely threw everything in the air, so trust me when I say I understand that struggle even at a much much smaller/lower stakes level; actually now that I think about it, one way back in high school was exactly this kind of major UI adjustment that I stayed up overnight to fix, in a braindead "what were WE thinking?" moment lol.
There are times in videos where I bend over backwards to make it clear that I'm still considering the stuff I've said earlier, and there are other times where I trust the audience understands that, even if it means I get one or two comments that poke at it! Those sorts of suggestions are basic not necessarily in design but a basic courtesy in my criticism - it's easier to say something is bad or subpar, but not many folks give substantive suggestions (let alone ones that consider historical context!). That's a respect I generally try to give to those that created whatever art I'm critiquing - in the moment of production, it's not always viable, but if I can find an opportunity to further raise positively-focused discussion, I'll do so - debatable armchairing be damned. For example, it'd be an unfair suggestion to ask for a homing attack reticle this early, that took years to become an idea and I wouldn't have even realized at first that it was a godsend when it came to be in 2008 I believe; it would be an _incredibly_ fair suggestion (and it's another one I cut from the script to try and keep the pace up, same with the constant hedging I'd have to do every few sentences to hammer in stuff like the small team size) to suggest that the homing attack be properly explained in a tutorial box, through organic gameplay in a safe environment, or even just in the manual of either version.
The mech suggestion was an off-script thing I threw in just to give an alternative idea than "rush the same idea you had last time and were explicitly aiming to flesh out from day 0 of production." It wasn't intended to be a "what were they thinking??" - it's just some extra food for thought in a game absolutely packed full of one-and-done gimmicks that clearly highlighted the team's penchant for experimenting. As for the button mapping suggestion, that's from my experience not some game-changer on a turn of the Millennium game on a 4 face button controller, and the "for some reason" there is a direct line to producer Yuji Naka's insistence even to this day with Balan Wonderworld that game controls should be barebones simple! It's not an issue of direct production struggles or focus testing or anything of the sort, that one is a clear as day upper management decision that actively hampers the game's ceiling.
_That's_ the reason for the "for some reason," aside, because it was irrespective of the team's size. The rest of it comes down to me hoping - and I promise I don't say this as a knock on you here! - that folks would understand just how constantly I'm stepping over myself to give viewers the ability to take or leave whatever parts they want from the video. Quite literally any critique I have has this easy excuse or handwave explanation, and that's by design! I just didn't want to have to say it every paragraph, because I've gotten flak in the past for doing exactly that and sounding wishy-washy. It's all give and take, so it's more fulfilling to me if I just trust folks more on it!
@@TheGoldenBolt I appreciate your response. I think that if speculating on what lessons can be mined from the Sonic Adventures and trying to build something new is very positive, but putting that in a video framed as a deep dive of taking the game on its own terms muddies that. Also I'm glad to hear that you have some programming chops, I used to teach it and I feel it's a rewarding addition to many peoples lives. However, while adding in major systems after the fact is the common story for beginners learning about workflow, making the game more complex from day one would still complicate it in time, resources, and work to the scale I was suggesting; applying this hypothetical game design scenario in hindsight as a handwave still feels really disrespectful to the work of a team under incredible amounts of stress; and I am just one of the many people you seem to suggest you understand will be coming to your video because of the subject matter rather than any prior history or shared trust with you. At face value, it hit a huge pet peeve of mine, not because I think you are intending to suggest anything along the lines of "the game could have been better if they took things in this totally different direction which I personally prefer," but I think taken in the state of game design discussion as it is it either stands as a subjective and personal tangent that doesn't announce itself as such, or with broader context it seems like another addition to game design discourse where critics present the way they would have done it as already a better idea as it sits on paper. Or, in this case not even that, as it was off-script. I don't think speculative game design and critical analysis belong together- they each muddy the other's intentions, and suggesting that a new and unproven iteration is what could have been while analyzing what became a beloved classic to many is the burning definition of armchair game design. I don't think you intended to be disrespectful or presumptuous and do think you were trying to be constructive, or positive as you put it, but even after reading your explanation here I feel like that soil stands to grow more kudzu than crops.
I don't mean to labor the point, just wanted to make sure with how much obvious care you gave to clarifying yourself I should do the same. I do mean the positive things I have to say about the video, by the way, and I hope you don't think my one festering complaint means I'm not going to subscribe. Obviously I have a lot of baggage with the issue itself, and you definitely created a space here where I felt like it would be safe to vent that and have a productive chat about it- and well, look at us!
I'm a little late on the pick-up here, but no, that's absolutely a fair shake! The vibe I tend to go for shifts around a little bit with every project between a pure historical perspective, a straight-up analysis, just me saying my own dumb opinions without trying to do all the research ahead of time, etc., so I can only agree that it can get muddy. I'll have to keep a better eye on that in the future, although I'll fully admit that knowing me, I'm probably a bit more likely to qualify it better and in a separate, face value/take it or leave it aside rather than cut it entirely. (Your input is a lot more fun to read and engage with than getting accused of being too negative all the time on projects where I'm explicitly trying to raise a game up!)
I've used this sort of suggestion for improvement with my Ratchet projects in the past (and even in the SA1 video) as a sort of teaser for future projects too, covering sequels that made those exact sorts of changes. Usually if I do that it's either to build a series theme or just a fun sort of Cunningham's Law poke, so folks can take a W correcting me in the comments - but SA2's very much a unique case in that the mech stuff never came back! It's a lot more to armchair in that manner than one of the other things I said in this video (that I totally will stand by), when I mention the Treasure Hunting stages' verticality and the simultaneous lack of a free-look option. At least with that one, it relates to actual meat on the bone - not to mention it was a pretty commonly established feature in 3D platformers from day one, even before Adventure 1 had started production!
Played both Sonic Adventure games for the first time in 2023 and I can't stress enough what a downgrade Sonic Adventure 2 feels like. The lack of a hub world, the inability to pick which character you play, the less personal individual stories, the less interesting plot, the worse level design (that final space area with the gravity nonsense is a NIGHTMARE) and they added this weird random things where some bosses can counter your homing attacks. 😭😭😭😭
The worst parts of SA1 were the Amy levels but the good thing about SA1 is that if a porting sucks it's not ever particularly hard and never overstays its welcome.
@@kharlopena7512 the best thing about sonic adventure 1, other than the aesthetic and soundtrack at least, is that a majority of the characters control similar to sonic, and there's only one genuinely bad story and it's over quick. you can choose to only play Sonic if you want, and it still feels like a full game.
SA2 pisses me off so much with its "yeah now you have to go through 3 mech and hunt levels before being able to play speed stages that are just hold forward to win" bullshit..
Seeing my comment in the first 30 seconds really made my day.
Can't wait to watch this when I get off work
I just A ranked final chase before watching this and GOD, was this cathartic!
You're a stronger man than I.
This review is just tremendous overall. Unlike most content creators, I can say that you’ve not only done great research in order to create context, but you have actual constructive criticism on why you didn’t like the game, which can’t be said for most content creators.
The reason the pop-in is so rough is mainly because it was one of the cutbacks to get it running at 60fps on the Dreamcast originally.
Good retrospective but the stepbro voice clip made me forget everything you said up until then so I'll need to rewatch it. Hopefully this doesn't leave me in purgatory.