When I saw the exchange between Bozo and his Lollipop I knew exactly what was going to happen. If you're a passenger on a private jet in this circumstance and the pilots don't check for ice, tell them you want off. If they say no, open the emergency exit or get up and set the doors to manual. It's your life, not theirs.
And how are you meant to know if they have checked for ice? Most people have no idea what is going on before takeoff and what needs to be done let alone of it has actually been done. Passengers likley on their phone etc. Imagine a passenger actually standing up on a plane you are on and opening an exit saying I'm not satisfied the pilots have performed all the required checklist items to a required standard, I'm off. Not going to happen. The truth is your life is out of your hands when you board a plane and many other situations in life.
I went to corporate Flight Attendant training, and we reviewed this accident as a part of CRM (Crew Resource Management) whereas a Flight Attendant who notices anything unusual, such as snow or ice visible on the wings should say something to the Pilot In Command. A 3rd crew member is also an extra pair of eyes; we were told that this carried great responsibility because we can sometimes see things not apparent to the pilots. Good Point, I say.
@@Capecodham You're welcome. The second part of the lesson taught in training was that just because you are not a pilot does not mean your input isn't valuable or vital to safety. It gave us a voice with no ego behind it.
If I'm ever on a flight that has more than a 5 minute delay after de-icing in sub-zero temperature with snow or sleet ... I guess I might get arrested for protesting. I don't know what I'd do. Any suggestions?
Flight attendant's observations might be of high importance. On one Swiss flight, flight attendants observed snow on the wings of an Airbus A340 shortly before take-off and immediately called the flight deck. One of the pilots went aft towards the cabin to verify the situation and the captain decided to return to the ramp for extra de-icing. That might have saved the life of 300 people.
@@watchhans That was EXACTLY what the lesson was! Our Instructor who was a former Pan Am 707 Pioneer asked us "What would you do in this case?" The Answer is to assertively tell the Pilots "I See Snow On The Wings." Six Words. SIX WORDS.
How could a person have 12,000+ flying hours behind him and be so stupid? I’m a 70 yr old woman who knows zip about planes but enjoy watching all the plane videos. Even I know planes not deiced right before flight can be fatal. Air Florida 90!! 😭
I lived in Denver at the time of this crash. It garnered a lot of press. The details are harrowing. Charlie Ebersol, one of the survivors, combed through burning wreckage to locate his younger brother, Teddy, having just pulled out their father, Dick Ebersol. As others have noted, Teddy perished along with the pilot. The Boston Red Sox foundation helped fund baseball fields in Boston’s west end that are named after Teddy. So, so sad.
I was an air traffic controller working at Denver Center when this accident happened. Montrose is one of several airports that serve "ski country" traffic in wintertime (others include Telluride, Aspen, Eagle/Vail, Rifle), and all these airports see a LOT of flights in and out from November thru March. November 28 was the Sunday after Thanksgiving, and would have been exceptionally busy, to the point that all flights in or out would have needed a "slot time" at their intended airport to keep things running relatively smoothly (at the level of, say, semi-controlled chaos). If you missed the slot time, it could easily be an hour or more before you got another chance to take off. The pilots would have been aware of this, and might have cut a few corners in order to get off the ground. This is no excuse for what they did, none whatsoever (I was appalled reading the CVR transcript in which the captain said they needed 8000 feet to take off, then decided 6000 would do, then settled on 7500 and attempted to depart on a 7000 foot runway--gah!), but it might add some perspective. There were many other planes trying to get in and get out of Montrose that day, and I don't know for sure but the controller who issued their clearance likely gave them a "clearance void after" time, which would have put them under pressure to take off or lose their place in line. Again, I'm not excusing the pilots--one can be under pressure and still do things safely. These two did not, and paid for it, as did their passengers and flight attendant.
I am not a pilot nor do I have any pilot training but aviation does fascinate me. In my mind safety takes precedence over any other issues that may be in play. That means that each step is taken seriously and completely each time without exception. Doing that would quickly get me the reputation of a PITA but at least I and the souls who count on me for their safety would stand the best chance of being alive. I understand that is easy for me to say sitting behind a computer not having the pressures of management and an employer but it is the most important thing that I have learned from watching these stories. Yes I am regarded as a PITA in my chosen field of endeavor.
My parents retired to Montrose in 2003. Crazy to think that MTJ has no tower, as it has significant daily commercial traffic. It carries about 200,000 passengers per year, including many 737-size jets, mainly in the winter
The captain, flight attendant and one passenger was killed. NBC Sports chairman Dick Ebersol survived. His 14 year son Teddy died. Dick is married to the famous movie star Susan Saint James who played in the triller North by Northwest.
Susan St James' first film was "P.J.", in 1968. "North By Northwest" was made in 1959, when Ms St James was 13, and starred Eva Marie Saint. Susan St James starred in "McMillan And Wife", with Rock Hudson.
@@davidmennomoyer ---I have always loved Susan St. James and the many characters she portrayed. Don`t forget that she also appeared in the TV series "Name of the Game", and my favorite series "McMillan and Wife". She also had a leading role in "Kate and Allie" and starred in the film "Love at First Bite". Losing a child is a tragedy no mother should experience, and my heart goes out to Susan and her family.
Time and time again, what is up with not de icing the wings? After watching numerous episodes with me, even my cat Dakota knows that in North America during winter months de icing is paramount to safe flying. Wow.
@@muffs55mercury61 Thanks, everyone for letting me know. I always wonder about this, because many leave this out; also, it would be equally interesting to know if when the cockpit crew survives, if they are fired, quit, etc.
Unbelievable that the first officer, a survivor, actually sued: "Eric Sloan Wicksell of Daytona Beach claims in the lawsuit that the plane was defective because operating and training manuals didn't disclose that it was highly susceptible to icing."
Well the F.O. is now probably out of work and may have sustained injuries that would have prevented him from working at least for a time. He probably needs income so throwing a hail mary might be his best and only option. His hours indicate that he was a very new pilot.
I figured ice buildup was going to bring this plane down. Snowing, Pilots just looked out the window to assess the wings, delay in takeoff. What could go wrong. Montrose is freezing cold in the winter.
I remember this accident, though I didn't remember it was the one with the Ebersols aboard until I saw one of the other posts here. Was hoping everyone would live, given that you didn't name the pilot and first officer. So sad that this happened... and if they had just checked the wings. Heck, just gotten de-iced, whether they'd checked or not. Nice video, Allec, thank you... I'm impressed how you get such information from "minor" accidents like this one...
Captain: How do the wings look? F/O: Good Captain: Looks clear to me Me: Well, that's going to end up aging like milk PS: I'm honestly surprised that there were any survivors, the wreckage made the wreck look absolutely unsurvivable
how come de icing the wings is voluntary given the location and likley weather at this airfield in particular ? is it that expensive that pilots/operators avoid it ??
Now there is a thing. We always did calculations as a co-pilot on a Chinagraph pad strapped to your knee. You checked everything twice and then gave the figure. Later we had TI calculators and double checking seemed to fade into the gloom. As to ice, this is inexplicable to me, at places like Reykavik you could see bits of bent aircraft where normal if cowardly procedures were ignored.
EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS OF FROST ARE SUFFICIENT TO CONTAMINATE THE LINAR FLOW OF AIR OVER A WING. DEICING OR BRINGING INTO A HEATED HANGAR FOR MELTING IS MANDATORY BEFORE FLIGHT.
I really hate to sound judgmental but dang these two pilots came across as lazy as hell and didn't want to be bothered with doing the job properly, especially the Captain and he also sounded like he wasn't in a mood to wait for anything either. It's a wonder anyone survived.
This is so typical for aircraft that have laminar flow airfoils. Even a quarter inch of ice on the wing can disrupt the flow of air across it and cause a crash. Pilots must ensure the wings are absolutely clear of all surface contamination before attempting to take off.
Any mention of "attitude" in the final report? The guys up front were fine with a marginal-length runway in snowy conditions and the FO felt the numbers were conservative. NO, they're carved in stone! You can get away (USUALLY) with working at the margins, but it only takes once...
Hi fellow Allec's followers. I have some questions you may now the answer to. I'm PPA, but it is never that cold nor snows where I live. Do you pay extra charges to use deicing services? And if so, may the companys be reluctant to pay them and question (or even charge) pilots for it? Or it is just a matter of time and pilots not wanting to delay take off?
They do charge. Can be up to $5000 for a 380, $3000 for a 350 and maybe 700-1000 for a 320. You don’t want to do it when you don’t have to but you do need to do it when it’s needed.
@@peteconrad2077 A small price to pay when compared to fatalities and a destroyed aircraft. The insurer might try to weasel out of paying damages because the air carrier was at fault. A NTSB report stating the same would seal the deal.
@@deepthinker999 I agree it should always be done where there is doubt. But doing it when it isn’t needed is wasteful and jeopardises the survival of airlines that often have wafer thin margins. Deicing can and often dies tune a profitable flight to a loss maker.
@@peteconrad2077 I agree with your logic. The issue here is not the deicing, it is expending the effort to check if the deicing is needed, particularly if the plane has been sitting for awhile after having been deiced.
A job that requires zero physical activity yet both pilots are too lazy to go out and take a 50-foot walk to get a close examination of the wings. It amazes me as to how lazy some people are. Their job is sitting in a seat, you would think that they would look forward to getting up and taking a walk.
I’m surprised they were just allowed to change runway at the last minute 🤔. Why didn’t they inspect the wings, ask how long snow clearing would take, request - no, demand - de-icing even as a precaution? The runway they took off from which wasn’t being cleared of snow was presumably in a worse condition? They were an accident waiting to happen!
@@deepthinker999 this isn’t - or shouldn’t be - hindsight for a pilot! Anything that can down a plane ought to be drilled into pilots as foresight. It isn’t rocket science for a pilot to know that ice is a big threat - that’s why planes are allowed to de-ice as often as they want in icy conditions, leading up to takeoff.
How a highly trained pilot doesnt know the dangers of ice build up on the wings and causing contamination staggers me... i work on a ramp and we do annual training on this subject... im not even flight deck id put these accidents down as manslaughter by the pilots.
Who were the people that died? The crew, or passengers? If the captain and first officer lived, they probably will wish they would have died because of the guilt and PTSD they will suffer for the rest of their lives.
@@JosephStalin-yk2hd no. It’s only required if the wing is contaminated or likely to be. To do so without some informed assessment is a very expensive waste.
@@peteconrad2077 because he was listening to the frequency and just played dumb and did not answer when was inquired about how long it will take to clear the runway.
@@bullseyes1983 1. You think it’s his fault he didn’t hear because he’s busy with something else. Happens. Captains call not to try again later. 2. Stuff like happens all the time. It’s the crews job to make sure the aircraft is safe. Not the ops manager. 3. It was ice buildup. It could just as easily happened while they waited for the other runway to clear.
@@bullseyes1983 so why give him the bird? Ignorance? Why do you expect that everyone is waiting with baited breath for your call. If they don’t answer, they’re likely getting info for the last crew who asked for something. I’ve occasionally flown with people like you. Thankfully rarely.
When I saw the exchange between Bozo and his Lollipop I knew exactly what was going to happen. If you're a passenger on a private jet in this circumstance and the pilots don't check for ice, tell them you want off. If they say no, open the emergency exit or get up and set the doors to manual. It's your life, not theirs.
Stop to get power in llppploi
Stop to
Hi
And how are you meant to know if they have checked for ice? Most people have no idea what is going on before takeoff and what needs to be done let alone of it has actually been done. Passengers likley on their phone etc. Imagine a passenger actually standing up on a plane you are on and opening an exit saying I'm not satisfied the pilots have performed all the required checklist items to a required standard, I'm off. Not going to happen. The truth is your life is out of your hands when you board a plane and many other situations in life.
we have the reverse problem here ? Taking off in hot thin air and being too heavy.
I went to corporate Flight Attendant training, and we reviewed this accident as a part of CRM (Crew Resource Management) whereas a Flight Attendant who notices anything unusual, such as snow or ice visible on the wings should say something to the Pilot In Command. A 3rd crew member is also an extra pair of eyes; we were told that this carried great responsibility because we can sometimes see things not apparent to the pilots. Good Point, I say.
Thank you for not assuming everyone here is a pilot. CRM (Crew Resource Management)
@@Capecodham You're welcome. The second part of the lesson taught in training was that just because you are not a pilot does not mean your input isn't valuable or vital to safety. It gave us a voice with no ego behind it.
If I'm ever on a flight that has more than a 5 minute delay after de-icing in sub-zero temperature with snow or sleet ... I guess I might get arrested for protesting. I don't know what I'd do. Any suggestions?
Flight attendant's observations might be of high importance.
On one Swiss flight, flight attendants observed snow on the wings of an Airbus A340 shortly before take-off and immediately called the flight deck.
One of the pilots went aft towards the cabin to verify the situation and the captain decided to return to the ramp for extra de-icing.
That might have saved the life of 300 people.
@@watchhans That was EXACTLY what the lesson was! Our Instructor who was a former Pan Am 707 Pioneer asked us "What would you do in this case?" The Answer is to assertively tell the Pilots "I See Snow On The Wings." Six Words. SIX WORDS.
How could a person have 12,000+ flying hours behind him and be so stupid?
I’m a 70 yr old woman who knows zip about planes but enjoy watching all the plane videos. Even I know planes not deiced right before flight can be fatal. Air Florida 90!! 😭
Hubris is the reason.
I lived in Denver at the time of this crash. It garnered a lot of press. The details are harrowing. Charlie Ebersol, one of the survivors, combed through burning wreckage to locate his younger brother, Teddy, having just pulled out their father, Dick Ebersol. As others have noted, Teddy perished along with the pilot. The Boston Red Sox foundation helped fund baseball fields in Boston’s west end that are named after Teddy. So, so sad.
I remember this happening because his wife at the time (I believe their divorced now) Susan St. James was on Oprah talking about this!
Back up….they are still together. Teddy was their son that didn’t survive but Charlie did. So very sad!
Complacency kills. It's really that simple.
I was an air traffic controller working at Denver Center when this accident happened. Montrose is one of several airports that serve "ski country" traffic in wintertime (others include Telluride, Aspen, Eagle/Vail, Rifle), and all these airports see a LOT of flights in and out from November thru March. November 28 was the Sunday after Thanksgiving, and would have been exceptionally busy, to the point that all flights in or out would have needed a "slot time" at their intended airport to keep things running relatively smoothly (at the level of, say, semi-controlled chaos). If you missed the slot time, it could easily be an hour or more before you got another chance to take off. The pilots would have been aware of this, and might have cut a few corners in order to get off the ground. This is no excuse for what they did, none whatsoever (I was appalled reading the CVR transcript in which the captain said they needed 8000 feet to take off, then decided 6000 would do, then settled on 7500 and attempted to depart on a 7000 foot runway--gah!), but it might add some perspective. There were many other planes trying to get in and get out of Montrose that day, and I don't know for sure but the controller who issued their clearance likely gave them a "clearance void after" time, which would have put them under pressure to take off or lose their place in line. Again, I'm not excusing the pilots--one can be under pressure and still do things safely. These two did not, and paid for it, as did their passengers and flight attendant.
@J Cut Thank you for your very “informative” comment. I love learning new things re; aviation.👍👌
I am not a pilot nor do I have any pilot training but aviation does fascinate me. In my mind safety takes precedence over any other issues that may be in play. That means that each step is taken seriously and completely each time without exception. Doing that would quickly get me the reputation of a PITA but at least I and the souls who count on me for their safety would stand the best chance of being alive. I understand that is easy for me to say sitting behind a computer not having the pressures of management and an employer but it is the most important thing that I have learned from watching these stories. Yes I am regarded as a PITA in my chosen field of endeavor.
My parents retired to Montrose in 2003. Crazy to think that MTJ has no tower, as it has significant daily commercial traffic. It carries about 200,000 passengers per year, including many 737-size jets, mainly in the winter
18 years have since passed so maybe it has a tower now.
@@muffs55mercury61 nope, at least according to wikipedia
Often it takes an serious accident to bring about change except that did not happen here.
The captain, flight attendant and one passenger was killed. NBC Sports chairman Dick Ebersol survived. His 14 year son Teddy died. Dick is married to the famous movie star Susan Saint James who played in the triller North by Northwest.
Susan St James' first film was "P.J.", in 1968. "North By Northwest" was made in 1959, when Ms St James was 13, and starred Eva Marie Saint. Susan St James starred in "McMillan And Wife", with Rock Hudson.
oh, this was the flight Teddy died in? surprised it wasn't mentioned.
@@davidmennomoyer Dick was in charge of s.n.l. for a brief period.
…that was Eva Marie Saint (who is still alive I believe)
@@davidmennomoyer ---I have always loved Susan St. James and the many characters she portrayed. Don`t forget that she also appeared in the TV series "Name of the Game", and my favorite series "McMillan and Wife". She also had a leading role in "Kate and Allie" and starred in the film "Love at First Bite". Losing a child is a tragedy no mother should experience, and my heart goes out to Susan and her family.
The pilots were very careless ...thanks allec for always bringing it 💯💙✌️
The Captain, Flight Attendant and 1 of 3 passengers died. First Officer and 2 passengers survived. (NTSB Report)
An accident that did not have to happen!! So careless!! RIP to those who perished. . . Good one, Allec!! Hope all is well with you!! 💕✈✈💕
Captain: How do you see the wings? 0:56 First officer: I look out the window.
Your comment is about the only thing that made sense here.
“… and don’t call me Shirley.”
Moe: What does your watch say?
Shemp: It doesn’t say anything I have to look at it.
Time and time again, what is up with not de icing the wings? After watching numerous episodes with me, even my cat Dakota knows that in North America during winter months de icing is paramount to safe flying. Wow.
It would be interesting to know if the pilots survived.
the captain died, the flight attendant died, and a passenger died - traumatic injuries.
I only found that two of the three crew died and one passenger died, RIP.
Since they are not named here I'm thinking that they did.
@@muffs55mercury61 Thanks, everyone for letting me know. I always wonder about this, because many leave this out; also, it would be equally interesting to know if when the cockpit crew survives, if they are fired, quit, etc.
@@donnabaardsen5372 Well the pilot paid the ultimate price. Firing would have been a much better alternative.
Unbelievable that the first officer, a survivor, actually sued: "Eric Sloan Wicksell of Daytona Beach claims in the lawsuit that the plane was defective because operating and training manuals didn't disclose that it was highly susceptible to icing."
It is basic physics, like saying it is "susceptible to gravity".
One of the named parties in the lawsuit was the FBO, apparently for not FORCING the crew to de-ice. Only makes sense to a lawyer, I guess...
Unbelievable! You couldn’t make this stuff up!
The Judge must’ve laughed in his face!
OMG! He must have been hit hard in the head or something! What a STUPID emeffer!
Well the F.O. is now probably out of work and may have sustained injuries that would have prevented him from working at least for a time. He probably needs income so throwing a hail mary might be his best and only option. His hours indicate that he was a very new pilot.
It’s a miracle half the total people on board survived it
Isn’t it? That’s what I was thinking
I figured ice buildup was going to bring this plane down. Snowing, Pilots just looked out the window to assess the wings, delay in takeoff. What could go wrong. Montrose is freezing cold in the winter.
I remember this accident, though I didn't remember it was the one with the Ebersols aboard until I saw one of the other posts here. Was hoping everyone would live, given that you didn't name the pilot and first officer. So sad that this happened... and if they had just checked the wings. Heck, just gotten de-iced, whether they'd checked or not. Nice video, Allec, thank you... I'm impressed how you get such information from "minor" accidents like this one...
I was wondering why the flight crew didn't mention taking precautions against icing considering that the simulation shows snow on the ground.
they get away with it 99 times and then the 100th everything lines up in the wrong direction
AGREE!
@@GigsTaggart Exactly !
Always make sure to de-ice the wings
If you're in a climate where ice can form of course.
Laziness / complacency
Next time that you fly in these conditions make sure that your thoughts are made known.
Captain: How do the wings look?
F/O: Good
Captain: Looks clear to me
Me: Well, that's going to end up aging like milk
PS: I'm honestly surprised that there were any survivors, the wreckage made the wreck look absolutely unsurvivable
F/O?
@@Capecodham first officer
@@Capecodham First Officer
@@Capecodham Figure it out, Burt. You’re a big boy, right?
@@b.t.356 What did you with the time you saved trying to look smarter than others by not typing irst fficer?
Underrated channel. Thanks for your awesome work!
overrated channel
They should have black paint lines on the top surfaces of the wings that have to be visible when it snows. There you go problem solved.
Zit down son and eat yer hot pocket
Hey Alec, the name of the company that builds the Challenger 601, is Bombardier, not Canadair.
Rockin! Thanks so much my friend!
Alec keep this work up
Am I the only one who reads the general information text in my head with voice of Jonathan Ares (ACI Narrator)?
Here’s an idea , get out and physically examine the freaking wings if in doubt . A totally avoidable accident.
Pilots seemed to be very casual on everything that day.
Captain : How do you see the wings. Response : With my eyes.
Thanks for the Video 👍
my pleasure
@@YanDaOne_QC it’s not even yours
@@YanDaOne_QC if only you could be less childish...
how come de icing the wings is voluntary given the location and likley weather at this airfield in particular ? is it that expensive that pilots/operators avoid it ??
Now there is a thing. We always did calculations as a co-pilot on a Chinagraph pad strapped to your knee. You checked everything twice and then gave the figure. Later we had TI calculators and double checking seemed to fade into the gloom. As to ice, this is inexplicable to me, at places like Reykavik you could see bits of bent aircraft where normal if cowardly procedures were ignored.
Cutting corners costs lives
No. Being stupid costs lives.
Actually, you're both right. Cutting Corners + Stupidity = Lives Lost.
@@stellakowalski1 Careless might be a better description.
This type of accident seems to happen again and again....
EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS OF FROST ARE SUFFICIENT TO CONTAMINATE THE LINAR FLOW OF AIR OVER A WING. DEICING OR BRINGING INTO A HEATED HANGAR FOR MELTING IS MANDATORY BEFORE FLIGHT.
Thanks Allec.
I dislike casual drivers and casual pilots even more!
Wouldn't have to worry about de-icing the wings today. Maybe worry about them melting though.
These pilots used to work at AeroSucre until they got fired.
Sugar Air?
Good one
@@stellakowalski1 Yep. Dominican Airline with a horrible safety record.
@@paulcooper8818 Maybe the F.O. can catch on at Aeroflot when he feels better but most of their routes involve snow and ice.
Love this song.
I really hate to sound judgmental but dang these two pilots came across as lazy as hell and didn't want to be bothered with doing the job properly, especially the Captain and he also sounded like he wasn't in a mood to wait for anything either. It's a wonder anyone survived.
Too much guessing about the runway and the required length needed to take off 🤷♂️😏. You have to know that you know 💯
Part of that exchange sounded like an auction.
Runway was fine they knew that. It wasn't part of why the plane crashed.
If the fly crew was playing fast and loose with the runway limitations doing the same with deicing seems plausible.
Exactly like Air Florida 90
True it
Not really. That was engine anti ice not being switched on.
Not really, flight 90 was a 737.
The flight crew had almost no experience with winter weather.
No day is routine.
Another pilot error crash, sad!~
How did anyone survive that
My exact question to that one UTair crash back in 2012
This is so typical for aircraft that have laminar flow airfoils. Even a quarter inch of ice on the wing can disrupt the flow of air across it and cause a crash. Pilots must ensure the wings are absolutely clear of all surface contamination before attempting to take off.
Any mention of "attitude" in the final report? The guys up front were fine with a marginal-length runway in snowy conditions and the FO felt the numbers were conservative. NO, they're carved in stone! You can get away (USUALLY) with working at the margins, but it only takes once...
Literally had nothing to do with the accident ant took off fine.
I say “decommission the plane”.
They wanted to take off and bugger the facts.
Request:Adam Air 574
Why 8000 feet ? We had 2 of the same planes based at CGF . They operated in all Cleveland seasons on 5280 feet
Depends on conditions and weight.
Montrose is at 5,800' altitude (Cleveland's at 650'). That thinner air makes a huge difference in takeoff distance needed.
Altitude. They are at 5,800 feet. The air is thin.
Hi fellow Allec's followers. I have some questions you may now the answer to. I'm PPA, but it is never that cold nor snows where I live. Do you pay extra charges to use deicing services? And if so, may the companys be reluctant to pay them and question (or even charge) pilots for it? Or it is just a matter of time and pilots not wanting to delay take off?
They do charge. Can be up to $5000 for a 380, $3000 for a 350 and maybe 700-1000 for a 320. You don’t want to do it when you don’t have to but you do need to do it when it’s needed.
@@peteconrad2077 A small price to pay when compared to fatalities and a destroyed aircraft. The insurer might try to weasel out of paying damages because the air carrier was at fault. A NTSB report stating the same would seal the deal.
@@deepthinker999 I agree it should always be done where there is doubt. But doing it when it isn’t needed is wasteful and jeopardises the survival of airlines that often have wafer thin margins. Deicing can and often dies tune a profitable flight to a loss maker.
@@peteconrad2077 I agree with your logic. The issue here is not the deicing, it is expending the effort to check if the deicing is needed, particularly if the plane has been sitting for awhile after having been deiced.
@@deepthinker999 indeed. If in doubt, get the engineering steps and check.
Do you make China airlines flight 140? 🙏🏻
11/28/2004
Names: Unknown
Age: 50 (Pilot), 30 (First Officer)
Flying time: 1.4150685 years (Pilot), 2.186299 months (First Officer)
Status: Short-Flight Crash
Survivors: 3/6
A very inexperienced flight crew. I would be afraid of flying with anyone other than a main line carrier.
Also that plane should have been de-iced prior to takeoff 🤦♂️💯
A job that requires zero physical activity yet both pilots are too lazy to go out and take a 50-foot walk to get a close examination of the wings. It amazes me as to how lazy some people are. Their job is sitting in a seat, you would think that they would look forward to getting up and taking a walk.
If your life was at stake and your families well being too it would seem that the extra effort might be worth it.
The passengers, obviously have money, and thinking this is the most convienent and safe way to travel..............
Please, make one about the Transbrasil 801 crash!!!
I believe the challenger is manufactured by bombardier
Funny how all plane crashes sound the same😉
I’m surprised they were just allowed to change runway at the last minute 🤔. Why didn’t they inspect the wings, ask how long snow clearing would take, request - no, demand - de-icing even as a precaution? The runway they took off from which wasn’t being cleared of snow was presumably in a worse condition? They were an accident waiting to happen!
True. Hindsight is 20/20.
@@deepthinker999 this isn’t - or shouldn’t be - hindsight for a pilot! Anything that can down a plane ought to be drilled into pilots as foresight. It isn’t rocket science for a pilot to know that ice is a big threat - that’s why planes are allowed to de-ice as often as they want in icy conditions, leading up to takeoff.
How a highly trained pilot doesnt know the dangers of ice build up on the wings and causing contamination staggers me... i work on a ramp and we do annual training on this subject... im not even flight deck id put these accidents down as manslaughter by the pilots.
Great Idea ! Maybe it should be up to the ramp works to say something since apparently no one else can.
Lazy pilots.
I'd be checking those wings / surfaces every 5 min like my life depended upon it.
@@houseofsolomon2440 they did not
I knew from the very first minute
Who were the people that died? The crew, or passengers? If the captain and first officer lived, they probably will wish they would have died because of the guilt and PTSD they will suffer for the rest of their lives.
Not too sure the FO suffered from PTSD, seems like he sued the airline for a plane prone to icing or something along those lines ...
@@CandyGirl44 A plane prone to icing ... in the winter, in the snowy Colorado mountains ... 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Montrose handles quite a few commercial flights these days. do they have a tower now?
Apparently not according to an earlier commenter who looked at Wikipedia.
RIP !
The ramp agents have to do their skills. Deicing is automatically required in those kinds of weather conditions 🙏😭
It’s not automatic, nor should it be. It’s the captain’s decision.
@@peteconrad2077 actually it should be automatic, unless in a different weather environment of course.
@@JosephStalin-yk2hd no. It’s only required if the wing is contaminated or likely to be. To do so without some informed assessment is a very expensive waste.
Just plain laziness on the part of the pilots. That and they were in a big hurry to get going. Not good.
Great work Alec, keep it up! Let me know when you get your pilot's license!
Camouflaged Threat | Global Aviation Flight 73
Camouflaged Threat | Global Aviation Flight 73
This used to be a great channel, well constructed.. Now, at critical moments I get a crap advertisement crowding in.. No more for me..
Really? Inspect your equipment people good lord
Also. In the end I know it is not his fault, but I want to give this🖕to the operations manager.
Why? It’s nothing to do with the operations manager.
@@peteconrad2077 because he was listening to the frequency and just played dumb and did not answer when was inquired about how long it will take to clear the runway.
@@bullseyes1983 1. You think it’s his fault he didn’t hear because he’s busy with something else. Happens. Captains call not to try again later.
2. Stuff like happens all the time. It’s the crews job to make sure the aircraft is safe. Not the ops manager.
3. It was ice buildup. It could just as easily happened while they waited for the other runway to clear.
@@peteconrad2077 I made pretty clear in the post that the accident was not his fault. So all your unsolicited speech is pure nonsense.
@@bullseyes1983 so why give him the bird? Ignorance? Why do you expect that everyone is waiting with baited breath for your call. If they don’t answer, they’re likely getting info for the last crew who asked for something. I’ve occasionally flown with people like you. Thankfully rarely.
Stop using the cheesy emo music at the end of the videos.
I think it sounds just fine.
I think it sounds fine too. Don't like it, turn it down.
I think it’s fine too.
You can literally watch them cooking the cheese!!