I think it would be interesting if he reviewed the Agon Console 8 (or one of the other Agon products) straight up, gave his honest opinion, said what he liked and disliked about it, and just left it at that. It would demonstrate an element of class that seems to be absent from the Agon creator's petulant sniping about other products, particularly Mr Murray's, that Mr Kastrup deems as some kind of threat. Then again, it would be another demand on Mr Murray's time that wouldn't really be justified, especially as he has so much else of greater importance to be getting on with.
When a new 8 bit guy video pops up in my feed, the feeling i get cant be matched. It’s the only channel that i watch every video from start to finish. Thank you for the years of magical content!
This is a very interesting system. I wish the Mega65 Team all the success in the world, and hope the X16 also succeeds and thrives in the coming year. (We need _more_ retro computers, not less.)
Though I would like to see it a bit cheaper (as a consumer. Just from David's documentation, i get an idea of what effort is going into developing such machines)
Planar graphics was one of the nails in the Amiga's coffin. It was a solution to a problem (RAM prices) that became less of an issue as time went by. Granted, the idiocies of Commodore's management played a much larger role.
Agonizingly, there's an interview from April '85 where Tramiel talks about how he has a "crystal ball" that allows him to see the future, and his main prediction is that RAM prices will continue to drop rapidly: th-cam.com/video/AMD2nF7meDI/w-d-xo.html
Planar graphics had some advantages, especially with the technology available at the time the Amiga 1000 and 500 were released. But CBM made "big box" Amigas that could utilise PC style graphics cards. The problem was that the most popular machines weren't the ones with Zorro or ISA slots, so most Amiga software wasn't capable of using such cards. But hindsight is a wonderful thing... lots of really big companies got things wrong back then.
Yes, that's quite true, and why one of the key early design decisions we made with the MEGA65 was to create chunky video modes, because the bit-planes on an 8-bit computer was such a vexed concept. Apart from BASIC, which we have yet to rework the graphics commands from the original C65 ROM's implementation, I'm not aware of essentially any software that anyone has created for the MEGA65 that uses the planar modes. Instead, software that wants to get the multiple play field effect that planar graphics were good for, uses the Raster Rewrite Buffer (RRB) that we added to the MEGA65. That basically holds the most recent raster line in a buffer, and lets you draw multiple layers of text/graphics over it. That's how the FIRST SHOT game looks so nice, it is using multiple 16 and 256 colour graphics layers.
Funnily enough, It was actually part of the EGA standard as well. Sadly, it It needn't have killed the Amiga, retargetable graphics had evolved on the platform as a way to support the use of third party graphics boards.
I remember staying up for hours typing in Rocket Command on my VIC-20 from the included manual. Only to lose it when I shut off the system as I didn't have a datasette or disk drive at the time. Totally worth it....
Yeah. IIRC, the Mega65 has an XC7A200T, which is a pretty decent FPGA. Technically, one could probably also do something a bit higher end than an 8-bit retro-computer on the thing. In my own project, I was using the slightly smaller XC7A100T and doing a 64-bit CPU and running ports of various DOS era games on it, like Doom/Quake/Heretic/Hexen/etc. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine someone doing similar on a Mega65 (well, apart from it seems like it has less RAM than a lot of the other FPGA boards, where 128 or 256 MB is fairly typical).
@@TheSulrossIts most compatible software mode is the MiSTer C64 core. It therefore makes sense to instead buy the MiSTer, for which the core was designed ... you'll also get a lot more RAM as a bonus
@@txtworld I have a Mister, an Ultimate64 and a Mega65. needless to say that when it comes to C64, the only machine i use now is the Mega65 since the C64 core which has been ported from the Mister also provides great improvements : I can plug any Retro cartridge such as EasyFlash, EasyFlash 3, Kungfu Flash, any physical cartridge whether it's old or recent, I can plug any SD2IEC drives to the Mega65 ... The experience with the high end keyboard is unbeatable.
It's great to see how thrilled you are to be looking at the MEGA65. I agree, by the way- It's likely that a rising tide will lift all boats here: a broader market creating cross support and perhaps a wider audience. Great video!👍
David, I am quite impressed. I admit I was one of the folks who may have had a few fears of the channel not giving the Mega 65 a fair shake but you were very thorough, open and unbiased in this video. I really liked what you said at the beginning about the riding tide raising all boats. Thanks for a great video! I should have never had my doubts!
1/2 the reason I love this channel is cool retro tech from all walks. Just like a music artist likes other music on can also appreciate other things but still take pride in their own stuff. Great content as always
A long-time subscriber here, who have slowly been drifting away from this channel. I miss these kinds of videos. It's been too much focus on X16 or the XXth rewrite of PETSCII Robots of late. I came to love this channel because of its in-depth passion about retro computers and I feel the focus have been shifting to other things lately. Hope to see more of these videos in the future. Great stuff.
I cannot agree more. However, the issue is that there is a very limited supply of retro computers that will interest his viewer base. The Atari 8-bit line or TI-99/4 are not as popular as the C64. ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC are nearly unheard of in the US. He has gone through the Commodores, even the PC clones. What's left are Amiga 600/1200, which are minor improvements over the 500, the C64GS, which no one cares about, and... nothing. The US moved on to PC quickly and there have been 1000 retro PC games channel out there. I guess he can make a 'rare/obscure computer channel', but he is no good electronic engineer, and making videos about what he doesn't know exposes that. Last time he tried to do something like that with the IBM PS/2 he came under significant fire.
@@andyhu9542 But does it have to be computers being reviewed? I enjoy it just as much when it is peripherals, devices, electronics and other releated stuff.
@@DanElgaard9 Yes! That's a great idea! Most people just bought the computer and maybe the datassette/disk drive to load games. Things like printers are usually 'the thing that was always on magazines but never owned.' It is a good source of content.
The mega 65 sounds like the modern retro computer David was dreaming of. I love the sound of the 12 channel SID. Would love to see more content about it.
Someone could write an Atari 800 FPGA core for it. It's open source so it might happen someday. In fact, an FPGA Atari 800 core already exists for MiSTer so it might not be too much trouble to port it over.
I have an original Atari 800 I bought when in high school. It's just sitting in my closet. Been thinking of trying to sell it somewhere or give it to a computer museum. Used to play the crap out of MULE.
Great to compare the systems, but comparing the MEGA65 price at EUR666 to the X16 at USD350 is not really an apples-to-apples comparison. The MEGA65 comes with a case, and mechanical keyboard. If we add the WASD mechanical keyboard and the Lazer3D case to the X16, and 3 lots of shipping as you can’t buy them together, then the X16 is actually more expensive than the MEGA65 (well at least where I live). Not to mention, the MEGA65 also includes a floppy drive! But, anyway, I’ll probably end up owning both. LOL
This project is so cool to follow. Best of luck for the future to the MEGA65 team and thanks for covering this. I just love how the Commodore 65 blends in between C64 and A500 with the added bonus of the MEGA65 that it's all FPGA based.
A longer video please! We know that it is a competitor, and we love what your team has created in the Commander X16, but we didn't see enough of this new C65 remix.
I am so sorry there will be less videos not because of you but because of what you explained last video, I really liked your videos over all other youtubers in this area
Fantastic content/channel mate! Me and my brother had 64 from Xmas 84, and we absolutely loved it. Me and some mates still used it heavily right up to, and for several years after, we'd left school in summer of 1990. Ot fired my imagination in a way nothing else did, and it's one of 2 major reasons for my lifelong love of electronic music. Subbed.
This is the first full video I've watched on the Mega65 - what an age to be alive in! There are so many great recreations of old systems, and entirely new systems inspired by them out at the moment. I had the opportunity and budget to support one a couple of years ago, and I narrowed it down to either the Spectrum Next or the Mega65. I ended up getting a Next - it all boiled down to cost at the end of the day for me. But that was the only deciding factor. Anyway, thanks for a great and honest review.
Would love to see the old Commodore bindings, as much of a pain as they were to actually use. Regular spiral's are common enough and fairly inexpensive. We do a lot of very small batch runs of them in my shop for training manuals and the like.
Great video David. I’d love to see you cover the ZX Spectrum Next. It’s a wonderful computer in a similar vein to those mentioned here. It also has an incredible version of basic with excellent new graphics abilities.
Sad to hear you could have done a 2 hour video but didn't. Don't misunderstand, we all appreciate this but I'm sure there are many of us starving for in depth retro hardware videos. Particularly YOUR great insight and takes. If there is "cutting room floor" / unpolished "Snyder" extended cut, please release it 😅
As nice as a 2-hour cut of David's in-depth insight would be, I like a concise video that discusses a topic and sets the stage for further research - it's easier to invest 10 minutes than 1 hour into a subject that you're not sure interested in. Maybe that's just an attention span thing on my part!
I think this is an excellent, comprehensive review - and you acknowledge the potential conflict of interest re the X16, but also don't see them as "competitors" but as fellow enthusiast devices who can learn from and support each other. One of the many reasons I enjoy this channel, it's a very supportive positive place!
If I'm gonna get one of the higher-cost new retro-style computers, it's going to be this one. There's so much cool stuff about it. Makes the price tag worth it IMO.
At this point in history I think it's no longer applicable to call this a "Commodore 65 repro" or to call something else a "C64 repro" or an "Amiga 500 repro," etc. These days since it's all just FPGA cores, it's more "What flavor do you want your FPGA machine in?" and you can get a shell of whatever you want the look and feel to be like and swap out some OS stuff to boot straight into your flavor of choice.
The Mega 65 is isn't really a reproduction of anything. The C65 was only ever released in prototype form, and in extremely small numbers. Not all the prototypes were complete, and therefore not compatible with each other. The Mega 65 has added capabilities that the C65 didn't. It's essentially an expensive fantasy computer, created in an FPGA, that can run a handful of software titles written for a machine that never made it in to production.
@@pelgervampireduck It's not emulation. It's a circuit recreation. That's why FPGAs cost so much. It is ironic however, that you're basically paying for more limitations. The Spectrum Next being incapable of loading the archival format for the platform without Pi assistance, for example. But they're authentic limitations. I mean, you CAN run a Spectrum core on the C65, but you don't really get the feel of either system without the associated hardware.
@@pelgervampireduck Wrong. FPGAs aren't emulation. When you write a bitstream for an FPGA, you aren't "programming" a CPU in a conventional sense. You're actually operating at a much lower level, actually manipulating the individual logic gates within the FPGA, linking them together in various ways that essentially exactly duplicates the functionality of something. Think of it as something similar in concept to a giant box of tinker toys. You slap them together according to a set of instructions (the bitstream) and you end up with a real working thing -- a bridge, or a robot arm, or a crane, or whatever -- that for all intents and purposes exactly duplicates the look and function of the original object. This is why FPGAs are so popular in the retro gaming community, because with the FPGA "toolbox" you can reproduce the behavior of whatever hardware (a Nintendo or a Genesis or whatever) with an extremely high level of accuracy, and without the performance penalty and inflexibility of traditional emulation.
@@pelgervampireduck What you're missing when running emulators on a PC is the feel of the system. These old systems used unique keyboard layouts and mechanisms, media and peripherals. THEC64 gave you the C64 keyboard, so certain keyboard based games played the way they should, for example "Star Trek by Ian Gray" which used the function keys and the keyboard arrow keys. Playing the game on Vice on my Apple keyboard just doesn't feel the same and isn't as enjoyable for me. The Mega65 gives you the C65 keyboard layout, if not the real key mechanism, ports and even a floppy drive so you can get it to work largely like a C65 would have.
The MEGA65 looks like a nice complete computer, just plug it in and start using it 👍 It also seems like the old original 8 bit machines, C64, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC and Atari 8bit have gained a lot in popularity over the last few years. Personally I find it a lot of fun to write code for the original machines.
I keep wondering if one can break even on game sales for old systems; like, ignoring your time to write code, can you sell at a price, enough copies, to pay for printing disks/pcbs/carts, boxes? I keep being tempted to write a few crazy games for various machines, but being able to break even would be a nice plus. (I wobnder which retro machines have the largest audience? Presumably C64 and NES or SNES, but you never know..)
@@skeezixcodejedi For something like C64 games there are companies who'll take care of the whole boxing, making disks, cassettes, cartridges, marketing and shipping, e.g. Protovision, but I can imagine they require the game to be original and high quality. Alternatively you can sell digital copies on itchio.
Keep up the great work david. I look forward to your videos. Also came across a stash of old z80 comouters and ibscure sutff a few months ago you may be interested in taking a gander at
Thank you, David! What you forgot mentioning is the VIC-4 video controller, which is based around VIC-III chip that can be found in the original Commodore 65.
It looks like the Mega65 includes a FPGA beast, and along its custom keyboard and case can explain its big cost. But, anyway, the FPGA is the way to go with this kind of retro systems because you can still get a working system when the critical hardware is no longer around (The day WDC closes business the X16 would have a big problem, but synthesizable 6502 cores will always be around). I myself did a board design with these systems in mind, but a much cheaper one using a Lattice FPGA and a Cypress SRAM. With that board I was able to recreate these computers: - A ZX Spectrum 48K - An Amstrad CPC 464 - An Apple II and IIe (search for apple ][ fpga replica) - A Defender arcade. And also other computers with with custom CPUs of my own design (8-bit, 16-bit, and even a 32-bit RISC-V) All using the same FPGA board, a VGA monitor, a PS2 keyboard, an SD card, and a game controller.
Competition in any space is generally good for consumers. This means that the X16 version 2 boards need to really knock it out of the park to challenge the Foenix and MEGA65. Price vs features, I guess? Either way, I'm excited for the future of this niche.
Not to mention several other modern 8 bit machines that already exist, some of which sell at a much lower price point than any of the ones you mentioned.
The features are already set in stone. The next goal should be to make it as cheap as humanly possible, so as many people as possible can afford it. Computers for the masses, not the classes.
Please don't take this question as a complaint but is the max resolution for this video 720p? I think David often posts at at least 1080p, IIRC. I ask because I have seen instances where other TH-camrs have posted vides up to 4K resolution and for some reason, that's not an option for me. Am I being throttled or is this just a lower resolution video?
The last few videos have been posted at 720p without explanation, perhaps he's hoping we won't notice? I suspect that higher resolutions are provided to patreon members but I have absolutely no basis for that belief. Also, for a while TH-cam has been trying to steer some "unprofitable" viewers to lower resolutions which could be manually overridden by the viewer, this could have skewed David's analytics indicating that the majority of viewers watch in 720p, which could have lead him to drop producing his content at 1080p. It's all guesswork, though, until he addresses the issue.
@@ffsireallydontcare Well, that's odd. I am... cough... probably one of those people that don't generate revenue for them. But not all TH-camrs have low resolution videos. I know of another guy (a fisherman in the UK) who I actually spoke with directly. He uploads in 4k, but often his videos for me are never higher than 1080p. Odd. For some reason, some channels seem to be throttled, but I have no clue if that's happening here.
@@RichardHartness I've noticed that sometimes the higher resolutions take a while to become available in certain regions. TH-cam uses regional cache servers and try to direct your connection to the closest one, and if a video is popular it is likely to have all the higher resolutions locally available. Sometimes though, like for me as I'm on the end of a wet piece of string at the other side of the planet, higher resolutions take a while to populate and only become available when TH-cam detects that I *really* want to watch the whole video.. Unfortunately this hasn't been happening for David's videos, so I suspect that he's actually posting at 720p.
Great to see another awesome 8-Bit Guy video about retro 8-bit systems. Also great to see you mention Foenix as well. I suspect the truely devoted 8-bit enthusiasts will eventually end up with all three systems! Especially from the point of developing and testing software that can be ported across all three systems.
To me the best modern retro computer is a raspberry Pi running RiscOS natively on its Acorn Risc Machines processor. It doesn't run all Archimedes games but the original Archimedes did not run many games either. RiscOS contains BBC basic with its built in Assembler and its manual which is dated 2017 is available online. The version of RiscOS for the Pi that contains the most useful utility programs is RiscOS direct.
Hey David, can we have more than 720p Video? Like, the camera makes a decent, really good image, but a bit low res on a large 4k monitor. Which is a bummer. Is the camera not capable of 1080p? I think your older vids were 1080... they kinda looked better in my memory, but maybe that's the fault, my memory.
You looking through the cartridges reminded me of the old AVGN video where he complains that game companies didn't put labels on the edges of some game carts lol
I've been a long-time fan of your content, and I appreciate the effort you put into sharing your knowledge and passion for all things retro tech. However, I couldn't help but notice a shift in your last few videos that prompted me to comment. Lately, it seems like there's been a noticeable increase in indifference in your videos. While I understand that everyone has their off days, I wanted to express how it has impacted my experience as a viewer. Your content has always been a source of inspiration and joy for me, but the recent tone has made it a bit challenging to enjoy. I believe your authenticity is one of the reasons so many people connect with your videos. Still, I wanted to share my perspective as a viewer who has found the last few videos somewhat depressing to watch. Perhaps it's just a temporary phase, and I trust that you'll find the balance that resonates with your audience. Looking forward to more of your engaging content in the future. Keep up the great work, and I hope brighter days are ahead for both you and your videos.
So, now, Dave, you need to make a video about how we can write program for the 3 platforms ;) Will there be common libs ? tools ? Damn, that's becoming pretty interesting :)
they are bringing attention to the potential here - write software that can target three different machines. Those feeling the entrepreneur tickle do the rest
I have written an assembler that runs natively on the Mega 65. Of course it will not output code for all three machines, but only for the Mega 65. It's called "Mega Assembler" and can output 6502, 4510 and 45GS02 binaries. It's available in the file area of the Mega 65 site.
BASIC is easy to use vs assembly. But modern Python or JavaScript etc are easier. A lot of the problem BASIC solved was how to enter a program in the first place - microcomputers didn’t have the memory to run a text editor. Line editing was the way, which is very cumbersome to modern minds. Also, most versions of BASIC lacked library support for graphics and sound, meaning if you wanted to do any of that you’d be writing machine code expressed as incomprehensible sequences of PEEK and POKE commands. It’s a relic of its time.
I think Python would be the best choice if you just want to learn general programming, it’s about as easy as BASIC. I originally learned BASIC decades ago and I think of Python as BASIC evolved for more modern computer capabilities.
The thing that's killed it for me is the shipping.. From memory when I looked at it (it was a while ago tbh) shipping was an additional 30%, and I can't remember the duty/gst situation - potentially another 30% on top.
@@geofftottenperthcoys9944 That said it will probably arrive in one piece. I've lost track of the number of rare classic computers that have been lost or destroyed by the Pitney Bowes Global Shredding Program on their way to me. It seems we aren't allowed nice things down here in OZ.
Glad to hear that they got a license from Cloanto to use the Commodore ROM code... Which brings up a question that would interest me.... Does VTech still own the Laser 128 ROM code or did they sell it off? Getting Apple to license their ROM code is likely a nonstarter, but I think a modern legal recreation of the Laser 128 might interest at least a couple of people.
@@Steril707 that’s fair, but there are a lot of Apple II fans that would probably throw their money at it. I just see VTech being more willing to License the Laser ROMs than Apple would.
I really enjoyed this overview, thank you. I know you are cutting back on the number of videos but if they are this good I will keep watching and enjoying your visits to yesteryear.
Thanks for another interesting, info-packed episode. Nice to see the main studio room back in use again. I was wondering if something had happened to it!
I love how welcoming you are about 'competing' products. Although it would have been fun if you'd just touched the Mega then dropped to the floor yelling "It burns! It burns!"
Nah I think his next 10 videos should be about the graphical updates to the video games his made then he should make a video complaint about low view count.
@@Amberlynn_Reid Enjoy the videos or dont.....personally I love 8-bit guy with what ever he does because his so informative and has some really cool projects that he does, if you dont like that then just dont watch he doesnt owe you anything. The guy is obviously struggling with things right now so he poured his heart out.....please do not kick someone when they are down.
@@amb5l I’ll email ya 😂 yeah I was trying to figure out why my OSSC wasn’t playing nice with my black magic on NTSC video. But I think it’s more the principle of the whole thing.
"I am not saying one design is better than the other", yes it is. A FPGA will always be better, as it can scale, and has a propagational delay advantage over discrete logic.
Too bad Foenix, Mega65, and Commander X16 just merge and bring the manufacturing costs down. I remember buying my used C64 for $199 Canadian$ back in 1986; I had to work all summer picking raspberries/blueberries, heh... ps: I didn't know MEga65 has planar graphics like the Amiga, didn't like that.
IMO the planar graphics are just there for historical purposes, and only really useful to support Commodore's BASIC bitmap graphics subsystem. When writing games directly for the MEGA65 in a compiled language or assembly language, most developers prefer newer, chunkier, faster high color graphics features that were added with the MEGA65. We want to extend the BASIC to support the newer MEGA65 graphics modes too, we're just constrained by ROM code space (which we might try to work around, some day).
Some cool exceptions for C128 owners were "Ultima V" which included full music, something C64 owners did not get. Also Last V8 from Mastertronic had a C128 enhanced version, Elite etc.
Here’s my vote for a two hour episode on the MEGA65.
I will definitely watch it😊😊
That's not going to happen ... unless the MEGA65 team sends Dave a free review unit - that's his to keep
I vote for 2 hour episode on X16
David made 3 hours worth of videos in 2023; he claimed YT takes 25% of his time.
A 2-hour video would take him months to make.
Why not?, was very short and interesting system, an full experience for a great computer
You are a good man. You gave a fair and honest and even gracious assessment of a competing product. Thank you.
I think it would be interesting if he reviewed the Agon Console 8 (or one of the other Agon products) straight up, gave his honest opinion, said what he liked and disliked about it, and just left it at that. It would demonstrate an element of class that seems to be absent from the Agon creator's petulant sniping about other products, particularly Mr Murray's, that Mr Kastrup deems as some kind of threat. Then again, it would be another demand on Mr Murray's time that wouldn't really be justified, especially as he has so much else of greater importance to be getting on with.
@@paul_boddie🤣
When a new 8 bit guy video pops up in my feed, the feeling i get cant be matched. It’s the only channel that i watch every video from start to finish. Thank you for the years of magical content!
@heindijs what a shallow comment
@@brusspup what a deep comment
@heindijs your mother never wanted to adopt you, paperwork mishap.
@heindijs ok
Agreed ,
This is a very interesting system. I wish the Mega65 Team all the success in the world, and hope the X16 also succeeds and thrives in the coming year. (We need _more_ retro computers, not less.)
Neither of those is a real retro computer.
@@Okurka. they are
@@thenameless3271 you just don't know what you are talking about :)
@@xlr8r171 Retro style means imitating the style from the recent past, not retro.
Though I would like to see it a bit cheaper (as a consumer. Just from David's documentation, i get an idea of what effort is going into developing such machines)
Planar graphics was one of the nails in the Amiga's coffin. It was a solution to a problem (RAM prices) that became less of an issue as time went by. Granted, the idiocies of Commodore's management played a much larger role.
Agonizingly, there's an interview from April '85 where Tramiel talks about how he has a "crystal ball" that allows him to see the future, and his main prediction is that RAM prices will continue to drop rapidly: th-cam.com/video/AMD2nF7meDI/w-d-xo.html
Planar graphics had some advantages, especially with the technology available at the time the Amiga 1000 and 500 were released. But CBM made "big box" Amigas that could utilise PC style graphics cards. The problem was that the most popular machines weren't the ones with Zorro or ISA slots, so most Amiga software wasn't capable of using such cards. But hindsight is a wonderful thing... lots of really big companies got things wrong back then.
Yes, that's quite true, and why one of the key early design decisions we made with the MEGA65 was to create chunky video modes, because the bit-planes on an 8-bit computer was such a vexed concept. Apart from BASIC, which we have yet to rework the graphics commands from the original C65 ROM's implementation, I'm not aware of essentially any software that anyone has created for the MEGA65 that uses the planar modes. Instead, software that wants to get the multiple play field effect that planar graphics were good for, uses the Raster Rewrite Buffer (RRB) that we added to the MEGA65. That basically holds the most recent raster line in a buffer, and lets you draw multiple layers of text/graphics over it. That's how the FIRST SHOT game looks so nice, it is using multiple 16 and 256 colour graphics layers.
Funnily enough, It was actually part of the EGA standard as well.
Sadly, it It needn't have killed the Amiga, retargetable graphics had evolved on the platform as a way to support the use of third party graphics boards.
@@RhetoricaRhamnusia Tramiel had left Commodore by the time the Amiga came about.
I remember staying up for hours typing in Rocket Command on my VIC-20 from the included manual. Only to lose it when I shut off the system as I didn't have a datasette or disk drive at the time. Totally worth it....
you didnt miss out on anything it was rubbish
I love the fpga inside letting you try different retro CPUs and even your own designs
it's a more classy take on MiSTer approach - and people will spend similar amounts on decking a MiSTer out, so why not go with a slicker end product
Yeah. IIRC, the Mega65 has an XC7A200T, which is a pretty decent FPGA.
Technically, one could probably also do something a bit higher end than an 8-bit retro-computer on the thing.
In my own project, I was using the slightly smaller XC7A100T and doing a 64-bit CPU and running ports of various DOS era games on it, like Doom/Quake/Heretic/Hexen/etc.
Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine someone doing similar on a Mega65 (well, apart from it seems like it has less RAM than a lot of the other FPGA boards, where 128 or 256 MB is fairly typical).
@@TheSulrossIts most compatible software mode is the MiSTer C64 core. It therefore makes sense to instead buy the MiSTer, for which the core was designed ... you'll also get a lot more RAM as a bonus
@@txtworld I have a Mister, an Ultimate64 and a Mega65. needless to say that when it comes to C64, the only machine i use now is the Mega65 since the C64 core which has been ported from the Mister also provides great improvements : I can plug any Retro cartridge such as EasyFlash, EasyFlash 3, Kungfu Flash, any physical cartridge whether it's old or recent, I can plug any SD2IEC drives to the Mega65 ... The experience with the high end keyboard is unbeatable.
I wonder if the Mega65 could have an X16 fpga core 🤯
It's great to see how thrilled you are to be looking at the MEGA65. I agree, by the way- It's likely that a rising tide will lift all boats here: a broader market creating cross support and perhaps a wider audience. Great video!👍
and healthy markets need some product choices
@@TheSulross Exactly!
no way it isn’t happening
David, I am quite impressed. I admit I was one of the folks who may have had a few fears of the channel not giving the Mega 65 a fair shake but you were very thorough, open and unbiased in this video. I really liked what you said at the beginning about the riding tide raising all boats. Thanks for a great video! I should have never had my doubts!
Thanks for the video! And thanks to Dan for bringing the M65 out for us to see.
Is it just me or is the audio more "distant" in the talking heads?
Definitely. The audio at 0:35 onward is pretty naff.
Yeah, the HVAC was running while Dan was there, and I tried to filter that out some.
Personally I didn't notice anything.
@@ErrorMessageNotFound Eesh! Probably wanna get your ears tested! 😁
They make little wearable mics you can attach to clothing
Thank you Dan for bringing the C65. Impressive piece of kit. And thanks Dave for the great video. Happy New year
1/2 the reason I love this channel is cool retro tech from all walks. Just like a music artist likes other music on can also appreciate other things but still take pride in their own stuff. Great content as always
This is awesome for so many friggin reasons. Thank you for your efforts, David. It’s so cool to see y’all networking and making some content together!
This channel never gets old.
A long-time subscriber here, who have slowly been drifting away from this channel. I miss these kinds of videos. It's been too much focus on X16 or the XXth rewrite of PETSCII Robots of late. I came to love this channel because of its in-depth passion about retro computers and I feel the focus have been shifting to other things lately. Hope to see more of these videos in the future. Great stuff.
Agree.
I cannot agree more. However, the issue is that there is a very limited supply of retro computers that will interest his viewer base. The Atari 8-bit line or TI-99/4 are not as popular as the C64. ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC are nearly unheard of in the US. He has gone through the Commodores, even the PC clones. What's left are Amiga 600/1200, which are minor improvements over the 500, the C64GS, which no one cares about, and... nothing. The US moved on to PC quickly and there have been 1000 retro PC games channel out there. I guess he can make a 'rare/obscure computer channel', but he is no good electronic engineer, and making videos about what he doesn't know exposes that. Last time he tried to do something like that with the IBM PS/2 he came under significant fire.
@@andyhu9542 But does it have to be computers being reviewed?
I enjoy it just as much when it is peripherals, devices, electronics and other releated stuff.
@@DanElgaard9 Yes! That's a great idea! Most people just bought the computer and maybe the datassette/disk drive to load games. Things like printers are usually 'the thing that was always on magazines but never owned.' It is a good source of content.
The mega 65 sounds like the modern retro computer David was dreaming of. I love the sound of the 12 channel SID. Would love to see more content about it.
I would love to see a recreation of an Atari 800.
There's a project from Poland called "RM 800XL" that's trying to create one. The product isn't available yet though.
@@HLubenow Thanks I will look for it. I hope it comes out soon. I had a Commodore and an Atari 800 in my Ham Shack in the mid 1980s
Someone could write an Atari 800 FPGA core for it. It's open source so it might happen someday. In fact, an FPGA Atari 800 core already exists for MiSTer so it might not be too much trouble to port it over.
I have an original Atari 800 I bought when in high school. It's just sitting in my closet. Been thinking of trying to sell it somewhere or give it to a computer museum. Used to play the crap out of MULE.
I'd love to see a port of Ultima IV and Ultima V with music for the system.
Great to compare the systems, but comparing the MEGA65 price at EUR666 to the X16 at USD350 is not really an apples-to-apples comparison. The MEGA65 comes with a case, and mechanical keyboard. If we add the WASD mechanical keyboard and the Lazer3D case to the X16, and 3 lots of shipping as you can’t buy them together, then the X16 is actually more expensive than the MEGA65 (well at least where I live). Not to mention, the MEGA65 also includes a floppy drive! But, anyway, I’ll probably end up owning both. LOL
This project is so cool to follow. Best of luck for the future to the MEGA65 team and thanks for covering this.
I just love how the Commodore 65 blends in between C64 and A500 with the added bonus of the MEGA65 that it's all FPGA based.
A longer video please! We know that it is a competitor, and we love what your team has created in the Commander X16, but we didn't see enough of this new C65 remix.
I am so sorry there will be less videos not because of you but because of what you explained last video, I really liked your videos over all other youtubers in this area
can't even make a sponsored video without slippin in some self promotion
As of now, he's trying to sell a product, so that's what he's gotta do.
Thanks to Dan. I know he was in the neighborhood (took a plane and a car to get in the neighborhood).
Fantastic content/channel mate! Me and my brother had 64 from Xmas 84, and we absolutely loved it. Me and some mates still used it heavily right up to, and for several years after, we'd left school in summer of 1990. Ot fired my imagination in a way nothing else did, and it's one of 2 major reasons for my lifelong love of electronic music.
Subbed.
This is the first full video I've watched on the Mega65 - what an age to be alive in! There are so many great recreations of old systems, and entirely new systems inspired by them out at the moment. I had the opportunity and budget to support one a couple of years ago, and I narrowed it down to either the Spectrum Next or the Mega65. I ended up getting a Next - it all boiled down to cost at the end of the day for me. But that was the only deciding factor. Anyway, thanks for a great and honest review.
why are your uploads 720p now? it's so odd :(
Ahh nice. I met Dan and saw the C65 at the Commodore Expo in Seattle this summer.
As a longtime technical writer I swooned when I saw the spiral-bound user guide.
Would love to see the old Commodore bindings, as much of a pain as they were to actually use. Regular spiral's are common enough and fairly inexpensive. We do a lot of very small batch runs of them in my shop for training manuals and the like.
My kind of 8-bit guy content ❤
Commander X16 core for the Mega65 would be a neat trick
Great video David.
I’d love to see you cover the ZX Spectrum Next. It’s a wonderful computer in a similar vein to those mentioned here. It also has an incredible version of basic with excellent new graphics abilities.
Oooh! I spotted "Wizrd of Wor" on one of the cartridges. For some reason I loved that back in the 80s.
Same!
Sad to hear you could have done a 2 hour video but didn't.
Don't misunderstand, we all appreciate this but I'm sure there are many of us starving for in depth retro hardware videos.
Particularly YOUR great insight and takes.
If there is "cutting room floor" / unpolished "Snyder" extended cut, please release it 😅
As nice as a 2-hour cut of David's in-depth insight would be, I like a concise video that discusses a topic and sets the stage for further research - it's easier to invest 10 minutes than 1 hour into a subject that you're not sure interested in. Maybe that's just an attention span thing on my part!
I think this is an excellent, comprehensive review - and you acknowledge the potential conflict of interest re the X16, but also don't see them as "competitors" but as fellow enthusiast devices who can learn from and support each other. One of the many reasons I enjoy this channel, it's a very supportive positive place!
This is great but... it's only at 720p. Why???
If I'm gonna get one of the higher-cost new retro-style computers, it's going to be this one. There's so much cool stuff about it. Makes the price tag worth it IMO.
At this point in history I think it's no longer applicable to call this a "Commodore 65 repro" or to call something else a "C64 repro" or an "Amiga 500 repro," etc. These days since it's all just FPGA cores, it's more "What flavor do you want your FPGA machine in?" and you can get a shell of whatever you want the look and feel to be like and swap out some OS stuff to boot straight into your flavor of choice.
The Mega 65 is isn't really a reproduction of anything. The C65 was only ever released in prototype form, and in extremely small numbers. Not all the prototypes were complete, and therefore not compatible with each other. The Mega 65 has added capabilities that the C65 didn't. It's essentially an expensive fantasy computer, created in an FPGA, that can run a handful of software titles written for a machine that never made it in to production.
it's basically emulation, I don't see the point, just run emulators on a PC.
@@pelgervampireduck It's not emulation. It's a circuit recreation. That's why FPGAs cost so much.
It is ironic however, that you're basically paying for more limitations. The Spectrum Next being incapable of loading the archival format for the platform without Pi assistance, for example. But they're authentic limitations. I mean, you CAN run a Spectrum core on the C65, but you don't really get the feel of either system without the associated hardware.
@@pelgervampireduck Wrong. FPGAs aren't emulation. When you write a bitstream for an FPGA, you aren't "programming" a CPU in a conventional sense. You're actually operating at a much lower level, actually manipulating the individual logic gates within the FPGA, linking them together in various ways that essentially exactly duplicates the functionality of something. Think of it as something similar in concept to a giant box of tinker toys. You slap them together according to a set of instructions (the bitstream) and you end up with a real working thing -- a bridge, or a robot arm, or a crane, or whatever -- that for all intents and purposes exactly duplicates the look and function of the original object. This is why FPGAs are so popular in the retro gaming community, because with the FPGA "toolbox" you can reproduce the behavior of whatever hardware (a Nintendo or a Genesis or whatever) with an extremely high level of accuracy, and without the performance penalty and inflexibility of traditional emulation.
@@pelgervampireduck What you're missing when running emulators on a PC is the feel of the system. These old systems used unique keyboard layouts and mechanisms, media and peripherals.
THEC64 gave you the C64 keyboard, so certain keyboard based games played the way they should, for example "Star Trek by Ian Gray" which used the function keys and the keyboard arrow keys. Playing the game on Vice on my Apple keyboard just doesn't feel the same and isn't as enjoyable for me.
The Mega65 gives you the C65 keyboard layout, if not the real key mechanism, ports and even a floppy drive so you can get it to work largely like a C65 would have.
The MEGA65 looks like a nice complete computer, just plug it in and start using it 👍 It also seems like the old original 8 bit machines, C64, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC and Atari 8bit have gained a lot in popularity over the last few years. Personally I find it a lot of fun to write code for the original machines.
I keep wondering if one can break even on game sales for old systems; like, ignoring your time to write code, can you sell at a price, enough copies, to pay for printing disks/pcbs/carts, boxes? I keep being tempted to write a few crazy games for various machines, but being able to break even would be a nice plus. (I wobnder which retro machines have the largest audience? Presumably C64 and NES or SNES, but you never know..)
@@skeezixcodejedi For something like C64 games there are companies who'll take care of the whole boxing, making disks, cassettes, cartridges, marketing and shipping, e.g. Protovision, but I can imagine they require the game to be original and high quality. Alternatively you can sell digital copies on itchio.
@@TheStuffMadeGood jumping off points, thanks!
The Mega65 looks amazing!!!
I would like to see a longer video as well. I hate to think they guy flew all the way to Texas for a 14-minute video.
Keep up the great work david. I look forward to your videos. Also came across a stash of old z80 comouters and ibscure sutff a few months ago you may be interested in taking a gander at
Thank you, David! What you forgot mentioning is the VIC-4 video controller, which is based around VIC-III chip that can be found in the original Commodore 65.
Pretty cool machine. Would've loved to have it as a kid.
It looks like the Mega65 includes a FPGA beast, and along its custom keyboard and case can explain its big cost.
But, anyway, the FPGA is the way to go with this kind of retro systems because you can still get a working system when the critical hardware is no longer around (The day WDC closes business the X16 would have a big problem, but synthesizable 6502 cores will always be around).
I myself did a board design with these systems in mind, but a much cheaper one using a Lattice FPGA and a Cypress SRAM. With that board I was able to recreate these computers:
- A ZX Spectrum 48K
- An Amstrad CPC 464
- An Apple II and IIe (search for apple ][ fpga replica)
- A Defender arcade.
And also other computers with with custom CPUs of my own design (8-bit, 16-bit, and even a 32-bit RISC-V) All using the same FPGA board, a VGA monitor, a PS2 keyboard, an SD card, and a game controller.
What I wouldn't give for a spiral bound programmer's reference for the systems I work on now.
If the reference exists in a printable form, any good print shop can bind one in a coil spiral for you. I know I'd be happy to do it.
The first thing that came to mind when you introduced your guest was “Is that Leo Laporte?” 😊
I love the attitude of lifting all boats with CommanderX16, Mega 65 and Foenix, very classy.
Mega64 the comedy group?
Great video as a starter, please more about the MEGA65!
This is a great episode!! Thank you~
Happy and Healthy New Year to the 8-Bit Guy and all the 8-Bit Guy viewers! Who's watching in 2024?
I'm watching in 2027
First Shot looks REALLLLLLLY good.
Thanks, hoping to finish it soon 😅
Mega64 has got some real competition.
I actually had to read the title twice wondering if Rocco would appear next to Dave. blew my mind for a while
Dr. Poque’s about to fly to Seattle to attempt a heist of this I’m sure.
What's the Mega64?
A shout out for this gorgeous user manual ❤️
Competition in any space is generally good for consumers. This means that the X16 version 2 boards need to really knock it out of the park to challenge the Foenix and MEGA65. Price vs features, I guess? Either way, I'm excited for the future of this niche.
Not to mention several other modern 8 bit machines that already exist, some of which sell at a much lower price point than any of the ones you mentioned.
The features are already set in stone. The next goal should be to make it as cheap as humanly possible, so as many people as possible can afford it.
Computers for the masses, not the classes.
X16 v2 is a freaking console game version.
Wow that spiral bound manual made me smile.
Please don't take this question as a complaint but is the max resolution for this video 720p? I think David often posts at at least 1080p, IIRC. I ask because I have seen instances where other TH-camrs have posted vides up to 4K resolution and for some reason, that's not an option for me. Am I being throttled or is this just a lower resolution video?
The last few videos have been posted at 720p without explanation, perhaps he's hoping we won't notice? I suspect that higher resolutions are provided to patreon members but I have absolutely no basis for that belief. Also, for a while TH-cam has been trying to steer some "unprofitable" viewers to lower resolutions which could be manually overridden by the viewer, this could have skewed David's analytics indicating that the majority of viewers watch in 720p, which could have lead him to drop producing his content at 1080p. It's all guesswork, though, until he addresses the issue.
@@ffsireallydontcare Well, that's odd. I am... cough... probably one of those people that don't generate revenue for them. But not all TH-camrs have low resolution videos. I know of another guy (a fisherman in the UK) who I actually spoke with directly. He uploads in 4k, but often his videos for me are never higher than 1080p. Odd. For some reason, some channels seem to be throttled, but I have no clue if that's happening here.
@@RichardHartness I've noticed that sometimes the higher resolutions take a while to become available in certain regions. TH-cam uses regional cache servers and try to direct your connection to the closest one, and if a video is popular it is likely to have all the higher resolutions locally available. Sometimes though, like for me as I'm on the end of a wet piece of string at the other side of the planet, higher resolutions take a while to populate and only become available when TH-cam detects that I *really* want to watch the whole video.. Unfortunately this hasn't been happening for David's videos, so I suspect that he's actually posting at 720p.
Good to hear from you on these dark cold days. The train was stunning, thanks for that.
Got my X16 today. Can't wait to hook it up, just need to get some of that hard-to-find "time" stuff.
Great to see another awesome 8-Bit Guy video about retro 8-bit systems. Also great to see you mention Foenix as well. I suspect the truely devoted 8-bit enthusiasts will eventually end up with all three systems! Especially from the point of developing and testing software that can be ported across all three systems.
ive been waiting for my mega65 to ship for about 2 years now
Thank you for your patience! We're on track for fulfilling all preorders before the middle of this year. Actual dates TBD, announcements coming soon.
@@DanSanderson it finally arrived at my door yesterday , was kinda annoyed that i got slugged with unexpected import costs though :(
Absolutely brilliant video , David , if was the 2 hour version , no doubt i would have watched it from start to end in a single sitting...
Nothing I will buy, but I can understand the enthusiasts who will do so as I from time to time bring out my trusted HP-41CX for some programming 👍
Back to the good stuff, thanks 8-bit-guy
New videos from here are always appreciated. Constant gold.
To me the best modern retro computer is a raspberry Pi running RiscOS natively on its Acorn Risc Machines processor. It doesn't run all Archimedes games but the original Archimedes did not run many games either. RiscOS contains BBC basic with its built in Assembler and its manual which is dated 2017 is available online. The version of RiscOS for the Pi that contains the most useful utility programs is RiscOS direct.
What is the outro music?
***DAVID*** have a listen to the sound!!!
Hey David, can we have more than 720p Video?
Like, the camera makes a decent, really good image, but a bit low res on a large 4k monitor.
Which is a bummer.
Is the camera not capable of 1080p? I think your older vids were 1080... they kinda looked better in my memory, but maybe that's the fault, my memory.
You looking through the cartridges reminded me of the old AVGN video where he complains that game companies didn't put labels on the edges of some game carts lol
Now that's what I like to see, creators lifting each other up!
I've been a long-time fan of your content, and I appreciate the effort you put into sharing your knowledge and passion for all things retro tech. However, I couldn't help but notice a shift in your last few videos that prompted me to comment.
Lately, it seems like there's been a noticeable increase in indifference in your videos. While I understand that everyone has their off days, I wanted to express how it has impacted my experience as a viewer. Your content has always been a source of inspiration and joy for me, but the recent tone has made it a bit challenging to enjoy. I believe your authenticity is one of the reasons so many people connect with your videos. Still, I wanted to share my perspective as a viewer who has found the last few videos somewhat depressing to watch. Perhaps it's just a temporary phase, and I trust that you'll find the balance that resonates with your audience.
Looking forward to more of your engaging content in the future. Keep up the great work, and I hope brighter days are ahead for both you and your videos.
The long awaited video review of the mega 65
„HDMI-compatible” never realized why its not just HDMI, thanks David for an amazing piece of knowledge as usual!
So, now, Dave, you need to make a video about how we can write program for the 3 platforms ;) Will there be common libs ? tools ?
Damn, that's becoming pretty interesting :)
A development platform with built in functions based on the computer conpiling for, would be nice.
they are bringing attention to the potential here - write software that can target three different machines. Those feeling the entrepreneur tickle do the rest
I have written an assembler that runs natively on the Mega 65. Of course it will not output code for all three machines, but only for the Mega 65. It's called "Mega Assembler" and can output 6502, 4510 and 45GS02 binaries. It's available in the file area of the Mega 65 site.
i do LOVE to see them!!! thank you David
I would love to see a series on programing in basic, for young people like me who hear it is easy to use and like to mess with stuff.
BASIC is easy to use vs assembly. But modern Python or JavaScript etc are easier. A lot of the problem BASIC solved was how to enter a program in the first place - microcomputers didn’t have the memory to run a text editor. Line editing was the way, which is very cumbersome to modern minds. Also, most versions of BASIC lacked library support for graphics and sound, meaning if you wanted to do any of that you’d be writing machine code expressed as incomprehensible sequences of PEEK and POKE commands. It’s a relic of its time.
I think Python would be the best choice if you just want to learn general programming, it’s about as easy as BASIC. I originally learned BASIC decades ago and I think of Python as BASIC evolved for more modern computer capabilities.
Been waiting a long time for my Mega65. Hoping 2024 will be the year!
Hate to see the cost of getting one to Australia. Wow $1087AUS.
The thing that's killed it for me is the shipping.. From memory when I looked at it (it was a while ago tbh) shipping was an additional 30%, and I can't remember the duty/gst situation - potentially another 30% on top.
@@ffsireallydontcareWTF!
@@geofftottenperthcoys9944 That said it will probably arrive in one piece. I've lost track of the number of rare classic computers that have been lost or destroyed by the Pitney Bowes Global Shredding Program on their way to me. It seems we aren't allowed nice things down here in OZ.
“In 2023”
It may be 2024, but hey it’s still cool!!!
I'd watch the 2 hour video on this!
Wonderful vid, David!!! Keep going 😛
Great episode, thank you! 👍
Thank you David for another, great video! Hoping to see more o'em this year ☺️
Might be a good system to get started with FPGA development.
Or get an FPGA development kit for $500 less.
Awesome to see these new retro computers.. )^_-)/ Greetings from New Jersey!
Glad to hear that they got a license from Cloanto to use the Commodore ROM code... Which brings up a question that would interest me.... Does VTech still own the Laser 128 ROM code or did they sell it off? Getting Apple to license their ROM code is likely a nonstarter, but I think a modern legal recreation of the Laser 128 might interest at least a couple of people.
Don't know. Isn't that extremely niche? I had a Laser VZ200 as a kid, and am not really interested in it, tbh.
@@Steril707 that’s fair, but there are a lot of Apple II fans that would probably throw their money at it. I just see VTech being more willing to License the Laser ROMs than Apple would.
I really enjoyed this overview, thank you. I know you are cutting back on the number of videos but if they are this good I will keep watching and enjoying your visits to yesteryear.
Thanks for another interesting, info-packed episode. Nice to see the main studio room back in use again. I was wondering if something had happened to it!
Nice video - please show us more of the Mega65!!
The mega 65 looks cool :)
I love how welcoming you are about 'competing' products. Although it would have been fun if you'd just touched the Mega then dropped to the floor yelling "It burns! It burns!"
How old are you?
@@Okurka. 56
Why only 720p video?
i enjoy watching 8-bit guy very much. thanks for your time!
Would be nice more content on mega65.
Nah I think his next 10 videos should be about the graphical updates to the video games his made then he should make a video complaint about low view count.
@@Amberlynn_Reid Enjoy the videos or dont.....personally I love 8-bit guy with what ever he does because his so informative and has some really cool projects that he does, if you dont like that then just dont watch he doesnt owe you anything. The guy is obviously struggling with things right now so he poured his heart out.....please do not kick someone when they are down.
@@Amberlynn_Reid I'd say that they're far more interesting to watch than whatever you do in your life. Just a fair opinion, really.
@@Amberlynn_ReidElijah is ignored here
I taught myself 8048 and 8051 assembly language on a C-64 back in '85 with Freedom-48 and Freedom-51 cartridges.
HDMI absolutely infuriates me - if anyone posts the spec online they DMCA it. Basic fundamental units of tech should be open source and license free.
+1. I wrote the HDMI output module for the MEGA65. The spec is out there if you want to find it!
@@amb5l I’ll email ya 😂 yeah I was trying to figure out why my OSSC wasn’t playing nice with my black magic on NTSC video. But I think it’s more the principle of the whole thing.
"I am not saying one design is better than the other", yes it is. A FPGA will always be better, as it can scale, and has a propagational delay advantage over discrete logic.
Too bad Foenix, Mega65, and Commander X16 just merge and bring the manufacturing costs down. I remember buying my used C64 for $199 Canadian$ back in 1986; I had to work all summer picking raspberries/blueberries, heh... ps: I didn't know MEga65 has planar graphics like the Amiga, didn't like that.
IMO the planar graphics are just there for historical purposes, and only really useful to support Commodore's BASIC bitmap graphics subsystem. When writing games directly for the MEGA65 in a compiled language or assembly language, most developers prefer newer, chunkier, faster high color graphics features that were added with the MEGA65. We want to extend the BASIC to support the newer MEGA65 graphics modes too, we're just constrained by ROM code space (which we might try to work around, some day).
Some cool exceptions for C128 owners were "Ultima V" which included full music, something C64 owners did not get. Also Last V8 from Mastertronic had a C128 enhanced version, Elite etc.