ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- I've seen some iffy Bleach criticisms during my time on TH-cam, so today I'm here to refute them and voice some of my, perhaps obvious, problems with The Discourse in this corner of anime TH-cam.
Music used:
Sawari Neko - Bakemonogatari
Odyssey - Kevin MacLeod
Catch 22 - Bleach
Also, here's a link to that radio interview thread I referenced on-screen: / 926914353680568321
Support me on Patreon: / mathwiz97
Twitter: / mathwiz97x
My wrestling channel: / mathwiz97x
My discussion(?) channel: / @mathswizardry
>0:41-1:01
Ahem, where is my credit for gigguk.mp4 sir >:(
s6till no credit
Just question mark him Mathwiz
He verbally said "Gigguk" right?
Rags You know you can look it up yourself, right?
“I’m a TH-camr, not an academic authority.” I felt this in my soul.
youfreakinnerd Digibro didn’t...
@@JustEverton Fucking savage.
I loved the fullbring arc all the emotional trauma ichigo went threw was deep
Yeah. Fullbring Arc is amazing. It's my favorite Arc in Bleach.
Same. It brought up Ichigo’s lack of goals: something that was mentioned at the start of the series and i loved how really aimless Ichigo felt. It was one of those “i lost my purpose what now” arcs many anime have done really well. It had emotional depth and thats some gud shizz
WhatIs MyPorpoise be grateful for your powers
just the animation alone tho 😂 it has a very pleasant art style and character designs
Yes, as a huge HxH fanboy, I agree with you. HxH isn’t a deconstruction of the shonen genre. It just subverts the genre, and it’s really good. Moreover, I hate how people insult other animes to praise HxH, or whatever anime that they’re praising, like you do.
"subversion"
the word people use when they actually want to say deconstruction but don't want to say deconstruction.
People use deconstruction and hxh in the same sentence too much
Aizen the troll king shit 3 times in a row for seeing a same video but still hxh is a great series and it just subverts genre.
Sinom Yeah, they use that word because it, somehow, and for some reason, *sounds* more advanced, while also satisfying their inner HxH fanboyism( If that’s even a word.lol)
@@aizenthetrollking8583 Most people dont what it means, and just throw it around like its a mark of praise. "HxH is not just shonen story, its a deconstruction"
Its honestly tiresome, because the series is not great because subvert shit. Its great due to having engaging characters, amazing villians, a highly flexbile power system, interesting themes and one of the best deuteragonists in anime.
Seeing someone even mention Kenpachi Zaraki's character arc brings a tear to my eye, almost literally. He's always been in my top 5 favorite anime characters ever since middle school and I fell in love with the berserker archetype reading Bleach
You know what? Fuck it. I love Bleach. Always have, always will. Hate how it ended but I still loved the story. Rukia is true best girl.
I was going to agree with you until you said Rukia was best girl.
@@Jibiez410 Sorry. I don't make the rules.
For me, Rukia is just best girl, Chair-sama is the one true best girl
@@crystaliskandar1 agreed i didnt hated the ending since the epilogue was decent and yeah i like rukia the best. Orihime is my second favorite girl in bleach
Filler killed the series tbh I wish they'd bring it back like FMA had Brotherhood
The ending of Bleach and its whole existence was all part of my keikaku, ningen.
Translation notes: keikaku=plan and ningen=human.
Do you speak japanese?
All according to cake
Translator's note: 'Cake' means 'keikaku'.
Translator's note: 'Keikaku' means 'plan'.
We get it, Aizen... You're a weeb...
Brandenlol I am no weeb, ningen.
I believe a lot of people think bleach goes downhill after the soul society because they watched the filler after the soul society arc and then quit the show.
Some of the fillers in bleach arent really that bad
During the nenshow podcast, where Mathwiz and Craftsdwarf discuss shonen battle manga, They discovered that people usually said Bleach went down hill the exact moment they started reading or watching it weekly.
@@TyudaiKishasa That's very interesting.. I started reading Bleach monthly (the USA had a monthly paperback SJ magazine, kinda like WSJ but the big series had handfuls of chapters instead of just one) and my enjoyment never really felt like it wavered at all even when I made the transition to weekly online
They think went downhill in lost agent arc
@@carloskingdomh Is it Fullbring arc? I loved it. I like such downscalled stories, just like Part 4 of Jojo.
Just watched this video and didn’t expect my video to be shown 😱. But yea, while making that video, I found it kind of sad that I even had to make a video on it. And if you go through the comments, people are still very ignorant on the fact that Dragon Ball is not even supposed to be thought about when talking about the big 3. The main problem I came to find is that they don’t know what the big 3 is. They think the Big 3 is the “biggest” Shonen series in the world, which it’s not what it is.
i was under the impression that it was obvious until recently that the big three were bleach naruto and one piece. and that dragonball was the granddaddy of all of those.
To be fair, I would technically include Dragon Ball in the discussions on the Big Three - not because it’s a member, but because it’s the clearest direct influence on all three works.
This is one of my favorite anime analysis channel.
Don't talk shit
I still think [Bleach] is amazing.
@Xavier Thomas But WAYYY too much filler
@@davea3641 Dude, the Bleach fillers are worth watching. I'm serious. Filler doesn't immediately mean bad, it just means we got even more material from the series that we like. I get it, some fillers (like the ones in Naruto Shippuden) are outstandingly annoying, but the ones in Bleach were actually pretty good for the most part.
@@gaarafan14thedarkknight63 I liked bleach back when I watched it. And I don't wanna sound too confrontational or get in a fight. But damn the filler sucked. The bount arc? Or the zanpakto arc? It almost made me stop watching. And it's kinda the reason I stopped watching after the aizen story ended.
Corban Sterner That’s what you think, but I loved how the filler arcs extended the original story. When you think about it, the Bleach anime has only about five arcs without the filler arcs, which, if you ask me, is not very long. Many people shit on arcs like the Bount arc and the Zanpakutou arc, but they were very different from the formulas in the arcs we already were familiar with. They brought even more variation to the plot, and the Amagai arc and Kageroza arcs were nice too.
Corban Sterner And you wanna know which fillers sucked? The Naruto Shippuden fillers. Now, _those_ were some complete horrendously boring and illogical shit. It really is a shame you stopped watching after the final fight with Aizen, but that’s your choice. If you just want to add up to the excessive hate and criticism to Bleach well that’s just too bad. Bleach is greatness no matter what people will say.
The thing that always turns me off about a shonen is that I can never know if I'll get a satisfyingly good ending... or heck even an ending at all.
I have one shonen recommendation for you, ending of which is often said to be one of the greatest of all time: Fullmetal Alchemist (manga) / Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (anime). If you enjoy reading manga at all I say go with the manga first. :)
Shonen do get endings in their manga but if its an anime then it mostly wont or they just make up an ending thats not even part of the manqfor example Blue exorcist but honestly shonen action anime gets treated better than romance anime I mean just look at shomin sample
Slytaej the bleach anime is actually good. It ended at the best spot to be honest.
If you unironically like HxH you don't have an opinion.
Basically why I never felt like reading One Piece.
Sure, the journey may be fun, but why should I follow the journey if I know it will never reach its destination? I'll fall off at a certain point, anyway.
The different arcs parallels run deeper than you think. For example the battle progression in Soul Society and Hueco Mundo. Of the main opponents of those arcs ichigo never fights the strongest member of the organization(Gotei 13, Espada) power scaling wise. In society he fights first renji the hot headed rival, then kenpachi the unbreakable warrior, and finally Byakuya the strong upholder of law. And in Hueco Mundo he fights Grimjoww the hot headed rival, then Nnoitra the unbreakable warrior, and finally Ulquiorra who has been shown to enforce order in Las Noches and as a bonus is considered to be the 5th strongest of the espada in universe rank wise and Byakuya is considered the 5th strongest captain via Stats in the Databook
EverythingbyMe6 late but Ulq was actually just the strongest
Ichigo didn't fight the strongest members? Seriously? You just mentioned them yourself .. he did fight Zaraki and Byakuya in the same arc and beat them both and remember Ichigo was a fodder that time who start to discover his powers.
People who unironically say HxH is deconstruction haven't watched much of shonen shows
Yeah, I've watched 70 episodes so far of HxH and I can't say it really does that.
When people call Hunter X Hunter and Madoka Magica "deconstructions", I'm convinced they don't know the meaning of the word.
Subversion ≠ Deconstruction
There are subversions but it’s not a deconstruction. The greatest thing about hunter x hunter is the moral ambiguity of its characters. All of the main caste are “good” but they’re all very flawed. But it does play off of common shounen troupes like friendship.
Win Flex Close yeah I like that no character in hxh is an actual good good person only one that probably comes close is leorio maybe
Leo is the true hero of HXH
Honestly stereotyping all shonen battle series as surface level series but putting others on pedestals for having great writing is so counterintuitive. I find the entire deconstruction convo with anime highly boring regardless but you don't need to justify your love of something by saying it isn't like it contemporaries. Videos like this from you, Super Eyepatch Wolf, and Craftsdrawf have gotten me to become interested in series rather than not check them out. For anyone to dismiss a series' themes due to the genre or demographic it falls under is something I see a lot but with shonen it's not called out in circles I hang around.
I highly recommend watching mr morj one piece analysis if you want some truly great thematic anime breakdowns
I think using the deconstruction term to put preference for one anime over another only happens with certain shows. Madoka Magica may be considered a deconstruction of the magical girl genre, but there are still plenty of people that would put Sailor Moon or Revolutionary Girl Utena above it in terms of quality. Similarly, no one calls Fullmetal Alchemist a deconstruction of shonen, and yet it is still considered the best anime ever by the general consensus. I think it really comes from within the minds of the fanbases of specific shows like HxH. In HxH's case, it probably developed its stance as "the greatest because it's a deconstruction" less out of a sense of quality and more from a set of various different, well-timed criteria, including (but not limited to) having a format more suited to the average seasonal binge-fest and being overshadowed by the fundamentally similar Naruto.
@@Gemnist98 it's not especially the case of hxh being a deconstruction that makes it great. It's the fact that the ideas togashi has are executed beautifully & almost perfect in my opinion hence why many people call it the greatest shonen of all time. Same with One piece & Fullmetal alchemist.
@@Gemnist98 on that note many people say hxh is a deconstruction of typical shonen stories but no one ever brought up a good example but one is Meruem being a deconstruction of cell/the perfect being Stories that occur in shonen.
@@Trxpamvs I'm not disagreeing that HxH being a deconstruction isn't a good quality about it. And I totally agree that as long as the deconstruction is executed well (which it is in this case), it's a good quality. I recommend Reality Punch Studios' video on HxH if you want some deconstructive examples in HxH.
I like the Fullbring arc because it showed that Ichigo can’t go back the way he lives before he met Rukia and got Soul Reaper powers. Kubo made Ichigo so us the audience can relate to him and the Fullbring arc is no exception. There has to be a huge percentage of people that went through a life changing experience but can’t go back the way they’re living before that event occur. Ichigo has an insecurity of being powerless to protect the ones he loves. When he got his Soul Reaper powers, his self conscious was satisfied because he has power to protect the ones he cares about. But after losing that said power, Ichigo was itching to get his powers back.
Rukia vs aaroniero is the fight that makes the whole "bleach went downhill after soul society" argument completely invalid
when Gigguk said a year ago that Black Clover had elements from various shounen anime but with it's own spin (like it was bad??) I got hooked on it so fast lol
Gigguk like Black Clover though
@@projectmessiah its a recent thing i believe
I love Bleach, and I'm starving for good Bleach content. It's almost all about the fall of Bleach. I'm done with that. It's been discussed plenty enough for me. What I want to see more of is a deep dive into the characters, themes, etc. More videos discussing what Bleach does well. Yeah, the series has problems. But it also has a lot of great stuff, and I am always eager to see discussion on that.
the channel Bleach Center just made a video about the inspiration of Bleach, pretty good honestly, you might want to check this channel.
You should watch Mrtommo2304 he’s GREAT
You should read "Can't fear your own world" novel about bleach. It expands about Tousen and Hisagi relationship, why Tousen did what he did, how corrupt Soul Society is, Soul King, overall lore and 2 bankais revealed. It's pretty good and written by Ryogo Narita under Kubo's supervision.
Man, people hate the Fullbring arc for the exact reasons that I loved it. Literally the exact page that they came back was the page that turned my joy from the arc completely around. 1K bloodwar arc was pretty sick though. Easy when they start changing the status quo and revealing bankais all over the place, even if it did end up falling down later (even though I still found it enjoyable). And the Everything But The Rain mini-arc was DOPE.
I hope Kubo doesn't get shafted again on his new series, he tries to go for a lot of cool shit (way too much arguably) and I respect him for it.
Gigguks "not a battle shonen" statement was extremely idiotic.
Mha is a bad battle shonen the fights are bad!
@@turtleboy1188 Why are the fights bad?
@@YonkoJay MHA fight are bad from a choreography point of view. Its good at doing character conflicts, but the actual fights are really boring compared many other shonen series.
@@Azg105 I disagree, I think MHA has great fights, a fight doesn't have to have amazing choreography or sakuga to be good, so long as it furthers the narrative in some way. So in that regard, MHA usually has really good fights though I understand where you're coming from and a while back I was the same way.
@@YonkoJayhirokoshis fights mostly depends on character drama, but the thing is most shonen battle series have fights with character drama. Having these types of fights are battle manga 101 really. Mha fights arnt really as horrible has mha haters say, but they are extremely basic. Hirokoshi has alot he should improve on.
“What I’m not gonna do is throw the rest of shonen under the bus to make it look good” FREAKING THANK YOU! (I love HXH to death btw). But something that irritates me is I keep seeing people compare My hero Academia to Naruto and they pick out an aspect that MHA does a little better than Naruto did and use it to make MHA seem flawless and make Naruto seem bad by comparison. While MHA does do some things much better than Naruto whenever I see people compare the two they rarely ever paint the full picture on the Naruto side of things and they leave stuff out that could potentially debunk their points. Part of this is just because Naruto is such a long piece of fiction that there are tons of little details that people forget about when they think of the series as a whole. I just think people are kinda unfair to Naruto when they compare it to MHA. What makes the problem worse is MHA isn’t done yet we don’t know if the problems people had with later Bleach and Naruto will start to appear in MHA. Let me clarify that I do really enjoy both series (albeit I enjoy Naruto more) but let’s be fair to both sides when we compare and be careful not to do leave out crucial details. Mathwiz you’re my favorite TH-cam keep up the good work!
I have definitely seen the opposite of this, where people will write off Hero Aca for being too similar and/or less than Naruto, not that comparisons like that are inherently bad. If people see missed potential in one that is made up for by the other, I think that's fine so long as no one insults people for liking the opposite or both.
Outside of shonen circles, I think HxH, Hero Aca and FMA are the ones that I see a ton of hype for, but this often comes at the expense of the broader shonen demographic, which can be irritating. Those three definitely have earned the praise they get, but it should be possible to praise them without slighting their contemporaries.
You're right. My favorite Anime/Manga is Fullmetal Alchemist and nothing will change that but that doesn't mean that I can't enjoy other words like Hunter X Hunter.
It seems that people kneed something to look down on, previously it was Bleach, now it's Black Clover.
Mathwiz I completely agree at first the knee jerk reaction to MHA was to call it a Naruto clone which is totally unfair to MHA and IMO honestly isn’t true they share similar themes but I think MHA is distinctly its own thing (sure it has some tropes but I think it does those well). But after people realized the unique properties of MHA it seemed that the people wanted to swing the pendulum back on the (admittedly toxic at times) Naruto fanbase and point out all of its flaws that MHA is improving upon which was good that is a fair form of criticism. But after awhile the analysis videos comparing the two series seemed too biased for MHA which IMO led to some unfair and questionable analysis videos. Except of course your videos comparing the Chuunin exams to the MHA tournament those were good fair videos (I also loved yours about the insecure shonen protagonists). Maybe I myself am biased being a Naruto fan for such a long time. I just wish people would focus less on what Naruto did better than MHA and what MHA does better than Naruto and focus on things that BOTH series do well. For instance Stain and Pain I think both of them are fantastic villains. Also you absolutely made my day by replying to me thank you very much!
MHA has its moments but its honestly boring and gets overpraied for nothing.
Naruto was plaged with filler so I skipped to the manga but it was still warshipped at the time of its airing and it was hell of an annoyying thing in the community.
Ahmad Kiam yeah I admittedly got into Naruto right after the manga ended so I wasn’t there see how annoying the fanbase could be on the way till it’s end
Bleach is one of my favorite anime of all time. It came out at a pivotal time in my life. I was just starting middle school while my brother was going into his sophomore year in high school. we had grown apart because of the age difference. In spite of that we could still bond over anime. Bleach was one of those shows that we always watched together week by week. Even now, I still go back and visit different bleach media and if I notice something new or funny, I send him a message. We may now live a couple thousand miles apart but the things we share remain.
Outside of emotional crap I need to bury again, I think the idea of magic demon fighting samurai is more interesting than ninjas that suck at stealth and pirates.
Hey Mathwiz, I just wanna say that I respect you so much for this video(already did anyways) as a Naruto fan who's actively(in comments) try to enhances the perspectives on the show(both criticism and praise) so I'm glad you made this video. I hope this video leads the charge of people being more critical of anime in general but especially shounen; I think that's the first step to rid the community of elitists and toxicity.
People give Naruto such a hard time and it deserves some hate but not as much as it gets I completely agree. That’s why I love mathwizs videos on Naruto.
@@mattcofer1522 I agree.
Thing is people conflate criticism with bashing or being negative. These such people often say things like: "I think this thing sucked" and then call themselves a critic. Thats the bigger problem we're facing right now. We've got too many elitists playing pretend critic with very little understanding of storytelling in general. When this type of mindset gets passed around the whole community will become toxic.
Hey Arnold I absolutely agree with this too. Some “critics” often don’t go beyond their own interpretations or intentional leave out nuance to serve the narrative of whatever their title claims. Good thing we have reflective and honest(as far as my ability can tell) passionate video makers like Mathwiz and Aleczandxr.
F.A.R I agree these pseudo-critical analysis’s channels on TH-cam are driving me nuts and it doesn’t help that some of them have large audiences that take their opinion as fact without questioning their credibility or wether or not they have actually done a fair analysis.
Bleach is pretty underrated. I used to be not so sure but when i watched it, it was fun. Also YYH is another great series with fun shonen elements
I love Yu Yu Hakusho. Such fond memories.
02:31 Off the top of my head, Tekking has a decent set of Bleach vids you could check out
He doesn't always go super thematic though. Do you remember the youtuber who did an analysis of Bleach's first arc as a metaphor for coping with loss? It was really solid.
Jordan Barkley its jaymeshanson
Jaymes hanson to
Ahhhh I see you're a man of culture as well.
Look at it this way:
Dragon Ball is the popular kid,
One piece is the cool kid,
Naruto is just a normal kid
And Bleach is the kid that everyone is picking on.
This is how the most popular shonen jump series are viewed in the community.
I think one piece is just normal cause no one knows who he is so less to hate on but also praise ...and it cool to like naruto now so its the cool kid...its the upstart dragonball in the west and with boruto it became cool to like it again post war arc where people got tired of the story
I feel like black clover is the kid everyone just likes to pick on nowadays.
bleach is not as popular as yu yu hakusho...no way....or kenshin...
wow i agree with EVERY point in this video, good video man
The Fullbring Arc just hurt my heart... it kinda felt like Ichigo was abandoned by his friends. I read fanfics written by Cywscross on AO3 that center around Bleach. And the way she writes Ichigo just makes me wanna cry.
THIS. This is the Bleach video I need amidst videos discussing / dissecting how Bleach fell from grace. I remember frequenting one Bleach forum in particular (was it onemanga forums? It's been a long time since I last visited) back in the day where after every release of a Bleach chapter I would always look forward to thesis/essay posts by Milareppa & Episteme consisting of pages of chapter breakdowns, character analyses complete with Japanese literature & Buddhist theme references/breakdowns (i.e., how the four races & the zanpakutou have roots in Japanese literature, Shinto, & Buddhist beliefs, etc.), & how the themes of each character involved in the chapter explain the character's actions/events of a chapter. They gave me insight on how Kubo designs his story, his characters, his world, his lore. Of course the manga still has flaws, but, like One Piece & HXH, Bleach still has its own depth should anyone bother to dig deep & look past its imperfections. Bleach is far from being trash.
I really loved the first minute of this vid 👍
(And the rest too ofc)
Good video fam!
Nux Taku Hey lost pause. Glad your giving back to the anime community.
Nux taku is here amazing. Hey man big fan.
Also why do you think bleach should have ended in aizen arc?
I like shonen more than seinen, shonen have a lot of restrictions in writing compared to seinen yet explore its themes and ideas by using and bending the typical shonen troupes into a new mold.
I value a writer by how much struggle he had went through while writing a story. The story must push him to a corner yet he must find creative ways to get out of it while bieng bound by previously established logic and shonen troupes,appealing to the target demographic.
I think that's genius.
I think a lot of shonen writers miss the "bound by previously established logic" part.
@@Corrector1 Introduce new logic so that you don't contradict the powers you established, and therefore avoid plot holes.
Togashi and kishi does that, horikoshi and oda are clever enough to not set any logical power system and therefore plot holes are not possible for them.
Foreshadowing is an important element here because most things might come off as asspulls if you don't do that.
I think one of the worst and best things with Shonen writers is that they work similar to the music industry- with Jump, Sunday, and Magazine somewhat like labels. For better or worse sometimes their own art is warped by what's working currently in the genre and by higher ups from said labels, being the editors for them.
So hard to cover every corner of the plot for holes when you are going week by week and at the risk of an editor making you do something different. Other types of books, storytelling, and even music get the chance to be worked on in the dark and released at once while shonen writers have to sometimes flounder on a week to week basis- twice as hard if they do art and story, which is why I am loving the uptick in split duty pairings.
@Shaman X there are a lot of restrictions in almost every way you can think of.
sure sexuality is one thing but there's a lot more like,
you must always have posItive themes that suit the demographic eventhough you don't believe them,
you must force in the usual troupes and add an interesting twists to keep it original,
there's the problem of casting a long running series with consistent themes (which is extremely hard and you should have perfect knowledge on everything happened before in the series so that you don't contradict them,same with character writing and lore/powers etc..)
you can't rewrite parts of story after a while,
there is the long strain of bieng a mangaka of a long running series,the deadlines yet still you must craft an interesting yet a good story,
can't kill minors,
that's just a few,
usually in seinen you are free to do whatever the fuck you want to,not the case with shonen. there are a lot (a LOT) of restrictions. long running series alone have many restrictions,a long running shonen is probably the hardest to write.
@Shaman X 108 chapters vs near 1000 chapters isn't a fair comparison. death note was clearly planned from the begging.
how about proving me wrong than saying "big 3 trash". you sound very ignorant as well. you might be surprised, but the big 3 are better written than most of you people seem to think, atleast for its insane length. I'll give a strong 8 for all 3 of them.
also I'm talking about battle shonen, which are clearly aimed at a younger audience.
So you see Mathwiz, the masses are dumb and just want to justify their opinions.
And now I crawl back into my nice corner where only Shonen manga and anime exists and people's opinons don't.
Bleach is good. The anime community is just mean.
If you think how they treat bleach its bad wait until they complain and shit on high guardian spice 🤣 thats a disaster waiting to happen #SupportBleach #BringBleachback
It's all subjective. They will attack the smallest detail relentlessly and defend other stories gaping plot holes and lazy writing. The latest being MHA and OfA giving Deku 6 additional powers all boosted by the power stockpiling ability and if the trend continues each one will be unlocked at the most convenient of moments. Don't get me wrong ichigo is an Asspull but Deku has become an even greater Asspull than that. But try and point that out and they swarm.
@@jaredfrancis5062 Would it kill you to put a Spoiler Warning next time? That's Season 5 shit.
@@jaredfrancis5062 Tbf, i do have mixed opinions about Deku 6 Quirks but the author has already hinted, foreshadow it like long ago so its not really asspull like out of nowhere but ofc like it or not is up to ppl to decide
Yep
What bugs me about HxH is exactly that people put it on a pedestol. Because, yes, I watched it, and I liked it, but the one arc everyone praises is what almost made me drop the show more than a hundred episodes (which I loved) in. I just couldn´t stand this annoying narrator annymore. He was constantly describing things I could see clearly myself (because that´s why it´s an anime and not an audio drama) and even more annoying, he´d explain everything, several times. For a show this smart and brutal in its themes, it made me feel like I was watching something aimed it 3-year olds, because why else explain every frame like you don´t trust the viewers to think for themselves?
It was one of the most infuriating expiriences I´ve had with anime so far yet it doesn´t seem to be a valid opinion by everyones standards. Of course that´s the best arc in shounen history, of course Meruem is the best op villian ever created, of course no other shounen could possible do better.
It doesn´t matter that I lost all of my previous investment in the show during these episodes, or that I found all antagonists and most new characters during the entire arc to be uninteresting at best, annoying at worst. Because that just means I didn´t understand them, obviously.
And that´s the worst thing, to complain about a show because it explains everything no matter how simple it actually is and then get all your critisimn devalued with a single "well you didn´t get the point then". I did. It just beat me over the head with it so many times, I couldn´t care less.
So yeah, anime discourse needs to change.
i agree soo much with you dude on how much HxH is put too much on a pedestal, especially the Chimera Ant arc. Like i think it has some of the best thing in anime, but it's also probably the most flawed arc i have ever seen.
* anime subverts tropes and expectations *
*"iS tHiS a DeCoNsTrUcTiOn Of ThE gEnRe?!"*
THANK YOU. I have a few ideas about videos discussing Bleach, but I haven't made it a priority in my schedule yet. I should fix that, because there are many elements in Bleach that, like you said, I don't see discussed on TH-cam.
Maaaan, yer videos are always so consistent in quality and how much work you put into em, thanks for putting this content out there
People undermine the Lost Agent arc but I believe that the arc is GENIUS as it flows in the story so well.
I don't think Bleach was bad. Heck, I don't even think The Thousand-Year Blood War arc was bad. But the ending was bad (sans Aizen). And what leaves the biggest impact on the viewers, are the beginning (do you choose to continue) and ending.
The Thousand-Year Blood War had some of the best fights in the series, no contest. It also had moments like Rukia's Bankai. It's got major problems, such as Kubo just not being able to put his all into the art and general schizophrenia, but it's honestly not bad. If anything, it's just filled with the biggest downs in the series, namely Ywach and the unfortunate cancellation.
I loved the Thousand-Year Blood War. There were certainly problems throughout the arc and the last 10-ish chapters were unfortunately rushed as fuck, but I enjoyed most of it whole lot.
Well it's Shonen Jump fault for rushing Kubo in the last arc of bleach
NorthernRedStar the thousand year blood arc was bad cos of it's placement in the series. If it was the second arc, with Fullbringers being the first bleach would have been great.
The Thousand-Year Blood War wasn't bad , in fact it was great and Yhwach wasn't bad character at all he was overpowerd yes but it was necessary to show how strong is the soul king , the ending was rushed but bleach wasn't suposed to end there after you read the novel you know that Kubo was planning a lot more he truly was a genius.
Started rewatching bleach with my nephew Kubo takes a lot of of undeserved shit, so much is set up in advanced hell the dude even put in family resemblance in the Shiba clan with ichigos family and they never point it out. There is a lot of subtle shit in the background that people just gloss over
One of the biggest foreshadowing of ichigos powers is the fact that Aizen said that he "" was special"". Aizen always had interest in ichigo because he know ichigo was built different he had major potential compared to the other characters. So kubo was always telling us that ichigo was special. 👍
Totally agree. Alot of stuff was built up & foreshadowed. 👍
There's so much shonen stuff out there that doesn't get the close reading it deserves. I would do terrible terrible illegal things just to get some decent analysis of Shaman King.
...like reread all of it and write the damn essay myself, I guess.
Deconstruction is way too heavy term to be thrown around. HxH is great but be careful with the words we use.
I think this is a very important video for not only Bleach fans but for Shonen fans in general to further the discourse surrounding the genre. Great vid Mathwiz.
we all know JoJo's Bizzare Adventure is the Anime Overlord
PS. It doesnt matter what anime you watch, the only thing that matters is that you enjoy it.
I fell in love with Bleach, because people kept raging on it. I saw video after video about how bad it was and wanted to know how bad it gets. Let's just say that Bleach Brave souls takes up at least 30 min of my time daily and I'm rereading to manga for the third time.
do you have tybw unohana cause shes pretty good
RikiBDGD Sadly no but my 10/5/5 Bond Orihime is a nice replacement.
What video?
@@carloskingdomh The Fall of Bleach and just general raging on the series as a hole.
@@whymesad did that video said bleach was really bad. Because im not gonna lie i heard that the video does say some good things but is extremely wrong in some parts specially with that tittle
I've been getting back into all the Shonen I watched as a kid and this channel is probably one of the best I've found in terms of anime discussion since like Demolition D way back in the day. Great stuff! Subbed.
I want to thank you for this video. Finally, somebody addresses how most people on TH-cam want to criticize Bleach without taking the time to TRULY analyze its themes and characters. Again, thank you
I just want to thank you for making this video, it just needed to be made and I'm glad it was you... To be honest I think Mathwiz became my favourite youtuber with these last couple videos, keep on with the good work!
People hate Bleach left and right. And here I am, still waiting for a shonen character that I like as much as Byakuya Kuchiki :v
ah so i'm not the only one who is a big fan of him. definitely my favorite Bleach character, and easily in my top 10 characters of all time.
Subjective. I don't know who Kanda Yu is, but I much prefer Byakuya to the other three.
JayfroC how small is the d grayman fanbase
This saddens me
@@WhatIsMyPorpoise fr, it's hard to find people to discuss the theories around it :(
Goddd you just reminded me how much I adored this series in high school and now I want to revisit if. I’d watch it all over again for the music and reread the blood war for the character designs.
I feel like I've seen something of a surge in ani-tuber positivity towards Bleach in the past couple of weeks, and it's made me really happy.
Being the anime that got me into anime, I've always loved Bleach, and I probably always will. I was never under the illusion that it was some flawless gem, but there was so much negativity and (though I really hate this word) toxicity whenever I brought it up, that I just kind of stopped bringing it up outside of confirmed Bleach-friendly circles.
So thanks, I guess. It's nice to see something I love not getting dumped on for a change.
I had always had some preferential treatment toward bleach(haven’t watched much of the animes for shonen) but reading bleach i always preferred ichigo over other protagonists
Maybe bleach was more intense in its themes and created stronger emotional responses bacause of that?
But by god the openings i fucking love the first opening
I dunno i always had liked bleach but recently i got into one piece and started understanding why people liked that one too.
Oh my god!!! Thank you for making this video!! Far too often I when I see criticism of the big three(and fire emblem) it is far too surface level and doesn’t really dig into the the general nuances that make up the stories. People ask “why?” but they don’t truly answer that question. Ugh I dunno I’m tired and I’m not sure if what I’m saying makes any sense. Needless to say I agree with literally EVERYTHING you said in the video. I might edit this comment later when I’m not tired and can better articulate my thoughts
Mathwiz and alexandxr are easily my favorite anime youtubers.
You guys focus on more interesting aspects about shounen anime like the themes & ideas. But also, you acknowledge that your opinions are opinions not facts.
The discourse and angry nature of most anime TH-cam comments sections makes it hard to want to communicate with other fans. Other “big” youtubers are equally guilty of encouraging this negative nature.
Thank you ! I am happy for every youtuber that gives Bleach a fair shot, hope this trend will continue. I never understood this hate/ignorance torwards Bleach, the thousand year blood war arc brought me back into reading manga and I still consider Ichigo as my favourite shonen protagonist.
Bleach and Fairy Tail. My favorite shows that everyone hates, but can't give me a good reason or argument why they are terrible.
Yess! I really enjoy Fairytail but I don't like to admit it because everyone sh*ts on it
I can definitely give you more than enough reasons as to why Bleach is bottom of the barrel shonen.
@@SAMSARALIVEEEEEE Are any of those reasons from Eyepatch wolf's video lol. If so they have already been debunked
@@sushigoose_I say trash one of their shows with misinformation and see what they feel lol.
Ahh deconstruction. The most meaningless term in writing ever.
I think character development is cause fans have this idea if a character doesnt fully change vegeta style they did not matter to a story writing wise...and thus should not be cared about...or my fave is the character who didn't develop we just learned a twist about them so we see them in a new light thus they matter a lot apparently now in a new way ala itachi in naruto lol..and somehow that means development as well..which it doesn't...
Character development is actually the most meaningless term because people think a character has to go 180° arc to be well written.
Bleach is by far the deepest of the big 3 as it doesnot spoon feed you answers to every question.
And Bleach's final arc is being animated by several fan groups.
I completely agree on your point about there being a lack of balance when it comes to opinions on any type of review or analysis (including any genre that isn't shonen).
As an adult, rewatching all those shows that I watched for the first time as a preteen, does, of course, change perspective when it comes to all the mechanics involving actually writing, drawing, publishing a manga & reproducing that said manga into a moving artwork bringing it to life with the voices and sounds befitting it.
Despite all the criticism (some deserved) about long running shonen like Bleach or Naruto, despite all the flaws that came with each respective series, I still love them to the core. Although it never crossed my adolescent mind before, rewatching/rereading these (and other) series after understanding a bit more about how the anime and manga business function, definitely gave me more insight into how much immense amount of work and dedication went into every frame and episode.
Looking at an overall Bleach and how it ended, sure, I was disappointed by how abruptly the series ended; but that doesn't take away from how much I still love the series and appreciated that something like Bleach even came into my life.
The world of Bleach with all its characters and themes, and plots; it's truly a spectacle if you just take a step back to appreciate how much thought and time went into completing it.
I mean the manga had 74 volumes and the anime had 366 episodes. And it's finished. All of this over the span of over a decade. I don't know how many people can do a project like this and stay committed to it for as long as Tite Kubo did (Masashi Kishimoto as well). I have mad respect that he had this idea, sat down, drew and wrote it, got it published, worked with a company he wasn't particularly fond of, dealt with health problems, and actually saw it through to the very end.
If Bleach did have an unrestrained time gap like Hunter x Hunter or Berserk, who knows how differently it would have turned out. But it didn't, and despite all that, it's still a dynamic, interesting, rich work of art that deserve fair critique from those who have actually seen and read the series at least once through.
(Apologies for the long comment :0)
Dude, there's plenty of manga that have gone on way longer than Bleach. Its length isn't anything special.
I've never seen a single good argument from anyone that says the series is bad after SS. I feel they just repeat it in order to fit in with the ones that get a boner from hating on it. Unfortunately, that's pretty common in shounen fandom, groups of people love to choose when a series is now "officially bad" and then just trash it for god knows how long. It happens a good bit less now I suppose, since several forums that were known for this aren't nearly as relevant anymore, but it certainly still exists. Anyway, it is what it is, but I'm glad that there are those out there still willing to step up to the plate and defend the series against those sorts of people.
Lol, people say how bad it got after SS but get a hard on for Ulquiorra and Grimmjow. Also get so happy seeing alot of characters like Hisagi and Ikkaku fight and be a part of the action, which some shonens are guilty of not doing enough of.
You know, I actually liked the Fullbringer Arc when it was coming out (both in manga and anime) but then I saw all these negative comments which made me wonder 'why do they dislike it?' and, after some time, 'why did I enjoy it?' Eventually, I stopped thinking... Until now.
And now I think that Bleach was enjoyable almost until it's end, it was the rushed One Thousand Year Blood War that was a bad arc... because it was rushed and it clearly didn't grow into what Kubo originally inteded. Which is a shame, I liked it's premise...
I am glad you did another video about Bleach and not just bashed it, but highlighted some of its many qualities. I love it for its characters, for its setting, for its battles... For my liking :)
P.S: I know it's not the most important thing but it's said "Ueco" Mundo as it's Spanish for hollow. And in Spanish or the Anime you don't pronounce the h. Just informative value. If you already knew you have all your right to say it as you want haha
Tekking101 has a pretty big following and gets pretty big traction on a lot of his bleach videos if anyone is looking for things like character discussion, theories, or plot analysis! He’s a bleach creator, who also does other, who has been making content like that for many years to be fair with a pretty big audience
My favorite argument against Bleach is that it is all samey. Big bad shows up, MC loses, MC gets stronger, MC beats big bad.
Almost every Shounen does this. Naruto did it essentially, Dragon Ball has everyone hold out till Goku show up, Deku thinks he can't do it but pulls something out of himself and pulls through.
Bleach doesn't deserve the hate honestly.
Also, Fullbringing Arc, I think, was great.
I guess you don't know about RetroRino, is a youtuber that is literally making an anime adaptation of the rest of the manga, complete with music and voice actors!!! and the first ep is out already...
Aged like cheese.
Subbed just because of this video, pls keep it up...cancer haters are killing me :/
We might be on different sides of the internet here because I always heard that fullbring was bad due to its similarities to the visoreds (also just a personal theory here, but it was the last anime arc so that might have contributed to the negativity). The less talked opinion on bleach I heard was that only the first arc was good and that soul society is where it went downhill (not mine, but I have heard it around).
Also while its true that story mechanics are not the same as themes and ideas, they can support each other immensely and if one is lacking the other may falter.
I remember seeing one video about that, claiming that Bleach became a bad series with Soul Society due to a change in themes and message. Which is real bullshit, as long-running pieces of media in particular have the freedom and/or necessity to cover multiple themes to keep things interesting, and it should be no problem as long as it is doesn't contradict themes from earlier in the work's life (and extra kudos if the themes evolve over the course of the series).
I just want that Leorio analysis. I just finished HxH and I'm thirsty for more!
I enjoy Shounen and I enjoy some seinen - haven't read all, still trying to catchup !! I love Bleach and it will remain special to me !! I think the main problem was definitely the lack of information we get through fights about many characters - like we don't know much about the Espada like Zommari or Quincy like Bazz-B - it was alluded to but we didn't get into it in depth but I enjoyed reading and watching all of Bleach !!
Brilliant opening, I hate the amount of neanderthalic elitism in the anime community, Shonen storytelling is not inherently bad and the idea that it is shows the blinding levels of ignorance some people have
I love this video and I think might go back and rewatch bleach now
I watch Nuxtaku for character breakdowns & philosophy in Shonen. Yes he's a sarcastic ****, but that's what we love about him.
Same
Senne Michiels I freaking love Nux taku.
Not a fan of the dude since he kept breaking our subreddit’s rules and spammed self promotion, lel
Tbh, Nux is annoying to me. He is never serious about what he talks about and makes stupid jokes only kids like. I don't hate him but he's a meh channel.
@@PlankShard I can see how some people find him annoying and yes he can make some hit or miss jokes. But to say he's never serious is just wrong. In the "No one understands [blank]" & "Philosophy of [blank]" series he's very serious. He just happens to be known most for his "honest" videos in which he's a sarcastic ****.
When he said that the Fullbring arc was underrated, I was like yes!!!!
NEVER put Dragonball in the Big 3. Dragonball is truly what inspired the Big 3.
I preferred the Arrancar Arc and Fullbringer Arc over the Soul Society Arc, and not because of the action, but moreso the characters themselves. Ulquiorra and his emotionless self, to Grimmjow and his desire to fight Ichigo, to that 6 arm freak vs Captain crazy, to the Soul Reaper King, etc.. I like it.
bleach was never apart of the big three..it was always well below the other 2...theres a reason they keep going and bleach ended so suddenly and the anime died out...people enjoyed naruto so much even during long filler arcs it was number 1 in ratings and merch sales post manga ending...they don't want it to die thus the boruto anime has filler too …and yes to me it all counts as one story so theres now 860+ episodes of naruto not split up...its called boruto: naruto the next generations for petes sake and still focuses on the adults from time to time...bleach to me is just a yu yu hakusho clone...
@@razkable opiniated response but ok
@@razkable huh you know that big 3 is based on most manga sales in the 2000s right. Popularity doesn't equal quality and finally how is bleach a yyh clone it barely has any similarities if you look into it hell naruto has more similarities with hxh.
@@IchigoKurosakicool it'n not even an opinion it's just wrong
@@gintokilearnedbankai5938 true
I want to thank you for this video. I had stopped reading Bleach early on in my teens when it was still running. Then after hearing all the kerfuffle about the ending and seeing things like videos about why it's awful on youtube I honestly just kind of. Trusted that and decided not to look into it at all again. Because it's 74 volumes long.
This video and the one you made about the themes surrounding vengeance in the series inspired me to actually go and look at the thing myself, though. Because I remember liking what bits of it I had read and watched very well, and wanted to form my own opinion on the thing as a whole. And what I've found is that it's honestly one of my favorite series I've ever read. It just really resonates with me in a very strong way. Enough so that I have done more casual analyses of certain things in it that I like and that I am working on a more formal essay analyzing a bit of it. And I've got like ideas for other things in it that I want to analyze and I've got a comic that I do, sincerely, want to reread and study and pore over because it just strikes me very hard emotionally and I want to be able to break down why it does and how it does.
So thanks for making this video. It helped me give Bleach a second chance and helped me find one of my favorite comics.
Frikin love Bleach man.
Tastes so good and keeps my clothes fresh and clean
@@yiangaruga4928 bruh.
Na na na na na na na Bleach Man! XD
In all seriousness, though, Bleach holds a special place in my heart
Thank you so much I've just finished reading bleach a couple of months ago and it was amazing loved every minute of it
The most popular shonen are usually pretty well constructed at the start at least, for the same reason Star Wars was. People like good stuff. There are obviously exceptions but they tend to be reviled.
And someone please to a character analysis of Aizen for fuck’s sake.
Nux Taku did that analysis of Aizen
I will forever love Bleach.
I’m happy it’s coming back. 💓
Can't wait for tybw to come back and everyone to suddenly say they liked bleach all along
I tried real hard to get value out of Bleach, and it so very frequently let me down.
The ending was a moment of actual sadness in how hard it was a let down though.
Oh no you making me whant to reread and re-watch bleach for 3 time
Bleach is my favorite anime and favorite show of all time and this video just really makes me happier to be a fan. You illustrated a lot of what Bleach has that makes it appealing to me.
Who else thinks that rabbit girl Carrot from One Piece is kind of HOT!👌
Why is this comment even here? lmao.
Shaman X 😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈🦞
#NotAFurry
I've always loved Bleach, ever since the series started airing on Adult Swim back in the 2000s. But I was never able to really express that love or even talk about the series much to anyone since for much of its run it was deemed the "black sheep" of the Big 3. Does it have problems? Sure! Every series does! But it's obvious that Kubo put his heart and soul into Bleach and honestly, any "downfall" that took place in the series was mostly due to Shonen Jump, un-realistic deadlines and Kubo's health problems as a result of the former two. Honestly, I think more people need to give Bleach a chance, and I'm glad to hear that you and other TH-camrs on the platform are planning to give Bleach some more, and much needed, attention.
I mean, I like the good anitubers, because mathwiz is a deconstruction of the anituber genera.
:galaxy brain:
Mathiwiz does have subversion elements indeed
You're an awful AniTuber Otaku
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Thank you! I try real hard
@@TheUnknownOtaku Of course a joke. If you want constructive criticism you have awful political opinions and defend awful people. Also awful taste in anime
Many people state that bleach is not as good as other shounen because Ichigo doesn’t have a general goal, like becoming hokage or pitate king. But that doesn’t bother me. I like that he just goes with the flow of whatever life throws at him, while also focusing on his studies and life in the world of the living. Not everyone knows what they want in life since the very beginning. I am 17 and have no idea what I want to do with myself. I know there are a lot of people older than me that also don’t have a goal in life aside from having a family, having a stable job... saying that ichigo is a bad shounen protagonist because of it is bs.
Man I've been waiting for someone to do this. Bleach is my favorite Manga series and people give me shit for it all the time. I also agree that the Arrancar Arc is my favorite arc, although I personally I think the Thousand Year Blood War Arc is the best thematically. It's really a shame that Shuheisha gave Kubo the shaft and forced him to end the story early - Kubo definitely wanted to explore more.
I used to watch quite a handful of Bleach back in my freshman(?)/sophomore year of high school- I think what attracted me was the cool art style, plus some neat characters. Over time, I did lose interest in it, mainly cuz I don't have the time or energy to invest in long shounen anymore. But what I did watch of Bleach was enjoyable. Many people may have not considered it 'thematic artistry', but hey, lil 15 year old me like it.
That being said, I don't think I can get back into it, unless I decide to read the manga. I might just do that for all the big shounen anyway (OP, Naruto, etc) because I feel like it solves one of my biggest issues that I have with shounen anime- which is the pacing.
-- also can we all collectively agree that Bleach has some bomb openings??
You have no idea how much i agree with you and how happy i am that you made this video.
I'm not at all a Bleach fan myself but i quite liked Bleach, and i really hate the level of negativity and unfair criticism people deverse on it.
I agree even more when it comes to HunterxHunter, i know you don't want negative comments and that's precisely why you made this video, but i'm sorry, appart from you, i consider the HunterxHunter fanbase to be the worst elitist trash i have ever seen in the anime community. they all think this serie is way better than ANYTHING else, defend to the death absolutely any criticism you make to the show, and like you said, have this tendancy to ALWAYS trash talk other serie to make HxH look better.
SuperEyepatchWolf who is one of my favorite Anituber could not provide himself to talk bad about Bleach fights to say good things about Gon vs Hisoka, and after that in his Bleach downfall analysis, he dare to say "i don't want to make this video another bad criticism of how bad Bleach has become because i think you fans got through enough already", well part of what Bleach fans went through is thanks to you Eyepatch.
And even if you are a massive HxH fan yourself, i think you understand what i mean, especially because of the comment section of your "Sasuke vs Kurapika" analysis. Since you said you overall prefer Kurapika, the HxH fans are happy, and how they show it ? One of the most liked comment under this video is something like "you will find a lot of people agreeing with you here because HxH fans are smart people who loves to discuss things in deep while Naruto fans are just dumb superficial people".
I can't tell you how mad this fanbase made me so often when i go under any comment section and there is ALWAYS the HunterxHunter tard that is here to preech our lord and savior Togashi and explaining that this anime is better than the one that is talked about in the video we are in.
My very first Kurapika vs Sasuke video was written from the "both characters are interesting in their own ways" perspective, but I admit that I did a poor job of phrasing things and kinda fed into the HxH elitism. To this day that comment section is probably one of my least favorites.
😂😂😂 Ik exactly what u mean,hxh fan base will kill someone for saying the akatsuki is better than the phantom troupe, or that sasuke is better than kurapika. My personal favorite is one piece but that changes with fmab and hxh every now and then
@@MathWizHQ
yeah don't worry i completely understood your perspective and i think it's a very good video, even more since you made a second one to respond to the general atmosphere of the comments.
@ShowTime
You know the good shit dude.
I know craftsdawrf has already read it but i really hope Mathwiz can read it as well.
100% agreed about Hunter x Hunter. I've never read or watched it and I'm sure it's a great series but the fans honestly put me off from it. It's really annoying how they always talk about it like it's the greatest thing it's ever graced the planet and dismiss the mere possibility of anything being even remotely comparable to it or just flatout calling other things trash because muh "deep" themes. I know it's unfair and I don't blame the series itself, I mean who knows maybe it really is that good but the fans have such an obnoxious god complex that it really kills my interest. Even Aleczander (who I think is a cool guy that makes some great content) does that shit sometimes. I remember that he once said that he had never watched Naruto but he wasn't interested because he would get more out of watching HxH for the 5th time than he would get from Naruto. It's such an insanely dismissive thing to say about a series you never experienced or know next to nothing about.
This needs way more views. WAY MORE
happy to see that more and more people understood that bleach don't fall off after soul society.
According to those who thinks that , arrancar arc is bad cuz it is like soul society arc and fullbring arc is bad cuz it's not like soul society arc, so what's the deal then ? XD
BTW it's crazy that hxh still didn't end yet XD
I really enjoyed this video. It’s always a breath of fresh air when I find a video that doesn’t just shit in Bleach.
Bleach failed because of the editors... I have no problem with But it seems editors always seem to rush these stories idk y 🤷🏿♂️
Not really
Something happened between Kubo and SJ.
It’s partly kubo’s fault .
Thousand Year Blood War was actually good and probably my favorite arc.
I’m watch the anime now and I can not understand for the life of me why they are t using hollowfication agaist the quinces it makes the fights hard to watch for me
I totally agree with the messege of this video, I have been thinking the same sort of things around shounen for a while now.
This has been a Bleach analysis video analysis video
I'm watching One Piece for the first time and I'm fucking loving it (I'm currently on Thriller Bark). Its the perfect mix of adventure, action, comedy and character drama. The world building and foreshadowing are insane and it has some truly heartbreaking moments in it.
I had been made to believe it was generic all these years based on the toxic bullshit levied at it by a large part of the anime community so I totally get what you're saying since I was also fairly new to anime at the time and was easily led to believe it wasn't worth my time. Glad I finally stopped buying into that bullshit years ago and started watching what I enjoy if it sounded interesting to me.
I do plan on jumping into the manga after the time skip as I've been told the anime adaptation takes a nose dive then but for now I'm enjoying the ride.
7:25 I don't care how many times you rag on it man, that video was good and thought provoking, which helped me improve on my writing skills.
So I'm gonna watch it again and you can't stop me!