This is not a critique of the messenger because I am a a loyal subscriber and thank her for the update. I feel the reactions to recent changes by the major associations of golf are indeed unpopular by the amateur base. Thanks for the update.
My issue was mentioned in your video, is sandbagging particularly higher handicappers who play very few comps per year but then are unplayable in match plays and four ball better balls, I think they should have to play in 10 or more comps per year to have a competition handicap as they did in the old system.
This all makes me glad that I don't bother worrying about a handicap. I'm out there playing for my own enjoyment, so I'm just trying to get as close to par as possible and don't care what my handicap is supposed to be.
@@michaelmccaffrey2379 I don't play in club events. I play public courses, I don't even participate in their Mens' Association events, and I get everything I want out of a round of golf. The only time I play competitively at all is my annual company golf tournament, which is always a four-man scramble and most years I've effectively carried the other three (they like to put me with new golfers because I'm good enough that they have fun, but not intimidatingly good, and I'm not so intense that new golfers feel bad about screwing up.) There's nothing wrong with playing for leisure and enjoyment, and you don't have to recalculate your handicap after every round that way...
As. Single figure H/C I stopped playing club comps. If you enter a comp - you like to think you have some chance of winning - but it is virtually impossible now. Case in point - shot a gross 73 in a society game this year and still lost by 4 points stableford. 🙄🤠🤠
yeah I agree. There should be some advantage to a low handicap in some tournaments. Though the new system is supposed to give lower handicaps a better chance. I don't understand how though.
Well explained. I found out about the CR - par option by accident when reading about the new WHS system on the R&A website prior to its launch. Completely debunked the marketing hype of ‘a single universal system’!! As far as I know most countries, including the USA adopted the CR - par option, the notable exceptions being England & Ireland.
WHS is the best thing that happened to h/caps. Its now much fairer when playing on courses that are far harder than the course you mainly aquired your h/cap on using the UHS
It needs to address the high handicappers, who appear for the classics and fourball competitions knowing they won't be cut . To me their the shoplifters of golf. There's no difference in stealing from a shop, and stealing from your golf club.
Maybe every golf club should be obliged to register every competition where prizes are won, with the EGU who could hold a data base of all such competitions so that the names of these bandits who spoil it for others are monitored and suspended for malpractice?
Most of what she is talking about has already been implemented in Australia. Our 27 hole course has upwards of 300 players every Saturday over 3 different 18 hole combinations. As each course varies in rating handicaps are adjusted accordingly by the system prior to start of play. The system also handicaps good results in 4BBB events.
Same here in NZ, looks like down under is ahead of the curve. I’m a member of two clubs and I loose shots on the easier of the two, as it should be. End of the day “hit the ball, find it and hit it again” put your card in and don’t worry about the system……
The option for the 4 Ball scores is welcome. But sadly the bandits simply won't register it for handicapping unless the organisers insist. Which they rarely will imo, so the bandits will still sweep up the open prizes with the typical 48+ points...
If their CDH is being used to register players & the software calculating their scores then these will be automatically registered to their WHS record. Good!
I know bandits exist, but not every high points total is an example of banditry. I came in with 45 points playing a Mizuno comp this year. Playing at Princes down in Sandwich, first time there, first time to play links golf. I think my playing partners were suspicious of me, but I have entered about 70 cards this year, have reduced my rating from 20.9 to 15.2 in that time. Sometimes, it can just be your day.
We have the 18th hole (which is uphill) which is 475 par 5, but 460 off the yellows which had to be rated as a par 4. We can now make both white and yellow the same par.
It won’t affect the score differential & therefore WON’T affect your handicap index. It only affects shots received on each course which will be the same for everybody.
A joke at the moment. We had a player from another club playing an open competition and he scored 47 points stableford. Parred nearly every hole but SCORED AN 8 ON THE LAST. A par on the last would have given him 50 points. You heard that right. An 8. Probably thought 47 would walk it and 50 points would be a little over the top. Didn't he realise, 47 was WELL OVER THE TOP. A joke. The winning scores at my club for any competition have gone up by at least 5 shots since WHS came in. What about the same system as now...plus, an extra 0.1 off for scores up to 2 points better than your handicap, 0.2 up to 4 better, 0.5 to 6, 1.0 to 8 plus. A bit severe ? NOBODY should be able to score more than about 6 shots more than their handicap and if you had the game of your life and shot 7 or 8 under your handicap you wouldn't be too bothered about losing a few shots off your handicap for that would you. Uh, if your honest that is. 47 with an 8 on the last from a 14 handicapper, A JOKE.
That’s more like a BB score what a bandit. I’ve had 10 years without playing and come back with a handicap that’s 8 strokes worse than when I stopped. I can honestly say that due to time I put now I.e. once a week I have never shot a round better than 3 under my handicap. When I played before was off 13 and shot 3 rounds of 74 for 3 consecutive rounds that got me down to 7 handicap. Shooting low numbers is possible but it’s not the norm.
that's because the UK didn't implement the WHS corrrectly. Go and look at my earlier comment explaining how playing hcps for the day are calculated based on slope rating & course rating.
That's the down side of playing all competitions as stableford. In stroke round that 8 would have reduced the score back. In Australia, almost all our club comps are stableford, and in grades so low markers, less than 12 are only competing against that grade. The handicap is re calculated on gross score.
Definition of 'simple' - easily understood or done. 😂 One of the drivers of WHS was to iron out inconsistencies, another to encourage participation in the game. Administrators now playing a mulligan having spent way more than 3 minutes addressing this handicap set up and need to get a grip.
Wont be bothering with club comps next year, its so much in favour of higher handicappers with zero incentive to improve. Our matchplay won by 13 hcap Our strokeplay won by 17 hcap Our greensomes won by a 19 and 32 hcap Our foursomes won by a 21 and 25 hcap Our fourball won by 9 and 17 hcap Our seniors won by 28 hcap Pointless
In stableford the holes not played are wipes. No points. The card goes in as No score, but is still in your rolling 20 from which best 8 are averaged for your index.
The WHS is great so that everyone can get a handicap but as a club member who’s always played regularly in comps it’s terrible. Your handicap jumps around too much. You can win a comp and still go up cos a better score drops off the bottom. Players can manipulate their scores before they play a match. It relies on everyone putting cards in all the time which not everyone wants or should have to do. Was much simpler before.
Sure, players CAN manipulate their scores but it's extremely unlikely to happen. Think about it - only comp scores count towards your handicap. Let's say you wanted to get your handicap up so you've got a better chance in the monthly medal. At an absolute minimum, you'd have to deliberately play bad in 8 comps in order for your best 8 scores to drop off your 20. Realistically that would only happen if scores 13-20 were all your best ones - and that's going to be practically impossible. So, in order to guarantee that your 8 best scores drop off you're going to have to play 20 deliberately bad comps and you're going to get caught trying to cheat the system long before those 20 rounds are played. And, if you just don't put cards in then it's not going to affect your handicap at all and the club will still get suspicious and probably not let you compete anyway.
@@derekwhyle1884 Wow! I just looked that up because I didn't believe you. You're right. I had no idea you could do that. That WOULD be easy to cheat the system then. I'd grab a mate and go out for a few rounds to it myself but my handicap's already high enough on its own 😝
The system is open to abuse as can be manipulated far too easy.. as a 1 handicapper it has made it almost impossible for me to even feature in any normal comps.. with scores regularly 5-7 under par winning, in the main from players between 8-15.. with players handicaps jumping high quickly.. the fluctuation in handicaps is ridiculous.. my mate went from plus 2 to 3 and back to scratch in 3 months.. I play open events and often see 47-50 points winning betterball comps.. and while the new system could accommodate this it’s dependent on the player wanting to enter the score.. 🙈🙈
Totally with you guys, as a 40 Yr cat 1 player no point entering comps any more due to crap whs , can't shoot gross 65s to get in top 3, instead play with similar hcap pals where good golf wins 👍
@@paulf5806 very similar to me.. we have a fiddle where the low handicappers all throw in £5 place pot for 1st and 2nd.. no point paying into club comps anymore.. 🙈🙈
Unfortunately our usual fourball of handicaps ranging from 3 to 8 are not allowed to play independently of the usual competition so we basically “ donate £4 each” weekly to the usual suspects of 18 to 27 or so hips. WHS has wrecked our sport. It doesn’t encourage anyone to improve their handicaps. Quite the contrary. It encourages decent players to have high handicaps in order to pick up trophies and oodles of cash.
The mantra KISS (keep it simple, stupid) seems to have bypassed the authors of the World Handicap System. They seem to be following the advice of "If it ain't broken, break it."
Honestly, I gave up caring when it changed to WFH just turn up and play my round try to shoot as low as I can, right now I'm a 2.2 index. Still people out there cheating their scores and wining comps
In terms of an individual’s course handicap previously not reflecting the course rating, what was introduced here a few yrs ago was dumb AF. The English union in their arrogance ignored the experience of most of the world. The new advantages are a) you will now know that 36 pts or nett par is playing to your handicap. Full stop; b) players can choose what tee they play off when playing with friends - the assigned course handicaps take care of the difference in difficulty; c) clubs can introduce comps where multiple tees are used
The issue in a competition of 40 is that a high handicapper will come 1st to 40th, a low handicapper will come 15th to 25th. The average is the same, the chance of winning isn't.
I’m off +0.2 under the old system I’d be off 1.4 so nearly two. It’s a fact under the new system your handicap everyone is off approximately two less. Getting to scratch was considered the pinnacle of amateur golf not now. I’ve got mates of 2 who were 4 handicappers under the old system.
Getting totally fed up with this system overall,i need a calculator to play a comp nowadays....i can honestly say i wont be bothering with 3 comps a week anymore and I'll just play for fun
Nice explanations Hannah, thank you, but you missed an important one, as I understand it shots will now be calculated from your exact, not the course. So, I’m a 3.4 actual, but on my home course I get 4 shots, am I right in assuming that with the no rounding it will be calculated as 3.4?
The best system is. If it's a par 72 and you shoot 75 means simple 3 over then your hcp is 3. It shouldn't matter what course it is. 3 over is 3 over they made the last 20 years of hcp much just keep it simple.
While I understand the new hcap system is trying to address certain issues. It just seems so confusing, also weather plays a big part in the difficulty of a course.
The old system took account of conditions on the day with a standard scratch for the tournament. In many tournaments at our course situated by the the sea were wind is the norm and a huge factor we only have 6 or 7 players out of 70 scoring par or better but your handicap keeps increasing. Does the new system take this into account.
Yes there is something called the PCC which looks at all the scores inputted that day on your course and makes any relevant adjustments. From my experience I wouldn't say it moves as much as the old system did though.
@hannahholdenNCG ..... Many thanks from Wike Ridge GC for this explaination. Many of the complaints Ive read were present in the old system as well as the idea that you only needed 3 scores each year in order to maintain an 'active h/cap'...... ridiculous. Any system still needs an active & smart Match & H/cap team to ensure fair play. Some real dinosaurs making comments on here.😂😂
So the actual handicap will not be affected, but it's just the amount of shots you receive? I think this is definitely going to help at our course, because I'm correcting people all the time. Basically if we play off the middle tees, the course rating is 66.7 on a par 70. (Slope 108). I play off 15 and get 14 shots. If I were to shoot a 14 over round (84) then the differential is 18.0. So I'm playing 3 shots over my handicap. The amount of times I've seen people hit the amount of shots they get and they say they've played their handicap, but they haven't. They've played 3 over their handicap. I believe this change will now negate this a little, and I will probably be getting 11 shots for a round now playing off 15.0, not 14. You can see it in our stableford comps because winners regularly have like 42. It will be rare to see someone shoot in the 40s now.
For all the whingers on here who obviouasly don't understand, or more to the point, don't want to understand how the WHS works. First of all actual hcps, whether for beginnders or long term players, are calculated under the WHS as follows: Rounds 1 & 2 - No hcp Round 3 - Lowest played to over the first 3 rounds MINUS 2 Round 4 - Lowest played to over the first 4 rounds MINUS 1 Round 5 - Lowest played to over the first 5 rounds Round 6 - Average of the 2 lowest played to for first 6 rounds MINUS 1 Rounds 7 & 8 - Average of the 2 lowest played to for the first 7 & 8 rounds Rounds 9 - 11 - Average of the 3 lowest played to for the first 9 - 11 rounds Rounds 12 - 14 - Average of the 4 lowest played to for the first 12 - 14 rounds Rounds 15 & 16 - Average of the 5 lowest played to for the first 15 & 16 rounds Rounds 17 & 18 - Average of the 6 lowest rounds played for teh first 17 & 18 rounds Round 19 - Average of the 7 lowest played rounds for the first 19 rounds Round 20 - Average of the 8 lowest played rounds for the first 20 rounds. From round 20 onwards it's the average of your 8 best played to rounds out of your last 20 rounds. So after 20 rounds have been submitted, every round the oldest of teh last 20 drops out and the new round goes into the calculation. It doesn't matter whether you're a high hcper or low hcper this sytem is the ONLY hcp system I've been involved with over the past 55 years that is a true reflection of a players ability. In additon to the above there is alsom an annual cap that restricts how far a hcp can blow out, and I believe that is 4 shots in a 12 month period, and for that to occur a player would need to be playing some damn aweful golf round after round. Submitting a really good score, say for example breaking by 6 shots, from my experience, again regardless of hcp it does not have anywhere as big an impact on a players hcp as it used to under all teh prvious hcp systems. The WHS is a true refelection of ability and consistency. Also this system, when used with a computer system will automatically take care of teh burglars who do not submit a card, because if golf clubs aren't too stingy, every player who commences a round is input into the system for the day and if they don't submit their scorecard, there is a formul.a in the software that will automatically give them a score and make the hcp adjustment accordingly. So not submitting a scorecard to protect a hcp will no longer be an option. See my post from 4 days ago, hereunder, on how playing hcps are calculated for each round based on course slope ratings & course ratings. As sadoldgit313 replied to my earlier post "not difficult at all is it, once yu understand how it works.
Using Course Rating in playing handicap is a no brainer. All other countries in the world (except Thailand) already do this. Why England golf didn't do this from the start I have no idea.
They do use the course rating, but it's done in the background when calculating your handicap index. Just because you don't see it happening, doesn't mean it doesn't get used.
@@darrenleake3343 I know but the current system has caused unnecessary confusion. Most people play on courses with a rating lower than par and complain about such high stableford scores not understanding that a rating of 70 against par of 72 for example means everyone is getting 2 'free' points.
Our handicap committee used to cut players handicaps 2 shots for winning a club competition, including pairs. Everyone knew how handicaps were worked out. We knew who the bandits were, and they were dealt with accordingly. We also gave handicaps to junior golfers based on par 3 rounds. The R&A removed this discretion from clubs, deciding instead to put money into the pockets of software suppliers. The overblown and overpaid R&A is too powerful. Clubs and their memberships should be granted more discretion to make their own decisions.
Isn't the course rating minus par etc etc already used in calculating your score differentials?? It's called PCC, playing conditions calculation. I know i've seen it on my differentials listings a number of times this season.
PCC and SSS are different parameters. PCC is used in the event of adverse or beneficial conditions depending on the scores produced by the whole field of competitors. SSS (Standard Scratch Score) is used in every calculation of handicap for the round regardless of playing conditions.
@@ianburton9223 correct, ut one of the new things to come in for 2024 is to do with playing conditions calculation, and they're calling it course rating minus par and its going to be used more often than the current abnormal conditions calc. Something to do with course setup etc. What I was saying is that is you setup the course harder (tough pins etc for a club major), then you can already use the pcc to add +1 or +2 to your differential for that day already. I dont think it needs changing from its current form.
@@darrenleake3343 I believe you may still be confusing two parameters that are totally unrelated.Playing conditions relate to how a particular course is being played in a particular competition and is based upon the scores produced in that particular event. Course rating is a figure determined through a detailed study of the layout and difficulty of a course according to well defined guidelines that allow different courses to be compared and handicaps adjusted appropriately. Playing conditions adjustment can change from day to day on a particular course and particular event. Course ratings are generally fixed for a course for several years and are not affected by playing conditions or course setup for a particular event. Course ratings are there to ensure that players from a high rating course do not have an unfair advantage when they play on a course with a low course rating. It's far from perfect, but it is better than having 17 handicap players from a difficult championship course claiming their 17 strokes on an easy municipal course.
@@ianburton9223 I didnt say course rating. i said "course rating minus par" that is the full thing they're bringing in for 2024, and it works exactly the same as PCC but is supposedly more accurate.
@@darrenleake3343 I appreciate this is new to England golf, but elsewhere golfers have been playing with this system for several years now. What you refer to as course rating we call Standard Scratch Score. Course rating is assessed on the basis of what scratch golfers have played from the tees selected for that competition. What you call course rating is part of the calculation of handicap for the day and is used before a competition starts. PCC is used after the competition and is based on the results produced over the various handicap ranges during that particular event.. Both parameters have an effect on competition results and are based on previous results but are entirely independent of each other. Before a competition starts individual player handicaps for a competition are based on Index x slope/113 - (Course rating - par). I believe we use the term Standard Scratch Score rather than course rating to avoid the potential ambiguity with the slope parameter that allows handicaps to be adjusted according to relative difficulty of different courses. Everything that I have written in these posts can be confirmed by looking up the relevant committee procedures and the WHS procedures.
This is a terrible part of the system that is in place in North America right now. The problem comes because this is a flat score regardless of your handicap. And it is different depending on which tee you play. So if you are a scratch Golfer being forced to play off the forward tees, the course may be rated 68.0 for a 72 par. That means (everything else being equal) you have to shoot -4 to play to your handicap. A 24 handicap also loses 4 shots, so he has to shoot +20 to play to their handicap. Now anyone who has even played golf a few times realises that it is immensely easier for a 24 handicap, to shoot +20, than it is for a scratch golfer to shoot 4 under par, particularly if you are playing a tournament set up and less than ideal conditions. My advice to low handicappers is to not enter handicap tournaments unless there is an equal value gross prize, but even then if your handicap is between 5 and about 12, you are going to find it really hard to win anything, if there are a full range of handicaps playing. My feeling on stroke-play is it gets fair at about 75% of calculated handicap or less, particularly when there is a maximum score on a hole to speed up play. I sometimes wonder if anyone at the R&A or USGA have ever played the game, or maybe the handicap system is a business vehicle designed to get new players into the game, not an attempt to make competitions fair. They should realize that a net birdie on a hole is far harder when you don't get a shot, compared to when you get 2-shots. I have played net skins, in a club competition and had every skin going to a net hole in one on par 3s, when playing off 5, I got a shot on none of them! Every single par 3 was under 150 yards from the senior tees. They didn't even get the beers in! The handicap system is so incompetent and unfit for purpose, it is laughable. Our club Championship had 7 players in it this year, the net prize won by a 25 handicap, who won by 17 shots over 2 rounds. The conditions were tough, the lowest single round was 77 (+5). Golf is a dying game, it is too expensive and totally mismanaged at the very top.
To someone outside the UK, most of these "changes" look like bringing the UK into line with the rest of the world. For too long England golf has been hiding from reality to protect ancient habits. So I would expect that England golfers on holiday outside that part of the UK will appreciate the reduced suspicions of artificial handicaps.
It’s hard enough trying to play the darned game without all this bullshit. Why can’t everyone just go out & enjoy the game. It’s way too complicated. I couldn’t care less about handicaps anymore. Make it easier not so complicated that no-one understands it. It’ll drive people away.
The only reason this will affect you poms is because you didn't implement these things from the beginning of the WHS. As @alisonborchers94 posted, these changes are already in effect in Australia & other countries and have been since the commencement of the WHS with the exception of the new 9 hole rubbish & teh par 3 courses. They were ALWAYS in the WHS formula, it's just that the poms and yanks were too lazy to implement the system correctly in the first place, so the R&A and the USGA are covering their rear ends by stating they are new changes, for teh most part, they are NOT. Here's an example of how it should be working: #1. Course A-par 72. Slope rating 125. Course rating 70. Player hcp is 15. Multiply hcp of 15 by slope rating of 125 = 1875; divide by standard slope rating of 113 = 16.59 subtract par 72 = -55.4 plus course rating 70 = 14.59, multiply by 0.93 = 13.56. Playing hcp for that round will be 14. #2. Course B - slope rating of 115, par 71, course rating 69.5. Player hcp is 15. Multiply hcp of 15 by slope rating of 115 = 1725; divide by standard slope rating of 113 = 15.26 subtract par 71 = -55.73 plus course rating 70 = 14.26, multiply by 0.93 = 13.26. Playing hcp for that round will be 13. Also please note that even though players only need to record their strokes taken for each hole, when the score cards are submitted those stroke scores or par event scores are converted to stableford points to calculate the hcp actually played to for each round.
@@Cornwall1888I’ve got no chance of winning comps now. 46 points won the last one. I’d have to shoot 5 under par to win. I’ve got no chance playing off 6. Pointless low hcp players competing.
@@2sqnbandit379 that’a always been the case, years ago I shot 71 and was beaten by a 28 handicap who shot 89, it is what it is Pcc was also around before this system it was called standard scratch
@@2sqnbandit379 I only care about my own score and handicap now, last time I won a competition I shot 2 under off 7 something that should only happen once in a lifetime so I think I’m done winning completions unless my handicap goes up a bit I’ve shot 71 and lost to a 28 who shot 89 before, that hurt
The last change in handicap system was unnecessary. The authorities are admitting they got it wrong by changing it so soon. Why don’t you include pitch and putt courses and crazy golf in the system too? At this rate the courses will be so full that a round will take all day and only a few will complete a round. It is not uncommon now to see people walking off the course because the play is so slow, these changes will only slow it down further.
Love to know why the 'faceless' people from these governing bodies had to fiddle with the handicap system in the first place with this WHS system when probably the vast majority just play golf for the sake of friendship within their own club and if they win a competition then great , which again creates great banter amongst fellow players. Will the vast majority be playing in open competitions to win them? (most people I know who play in them do so to play at nice courses at a good price). Will the vast number of players play abroad with the intentions of winning competitions (doubt it very much). Now they are making it even more complicated, so much so that more talk will be of the handicap system than the golf.
I am not sure you really would "love to know". If you had not already understood that the traditional England Golf handicap system produced situations that, according to many people playing to handicaps based on rounds played outside England, regarded as declaring false handicaps. Then I can understand your moonlight thinking. Check out the post by @ianashton1226 which succinctly explains why England golf had to conform, in a number of stages, with the rest of the golf world. Once upon a time the word equity was in the rules. The England golf handicap system did not respect equity. Now the "faceless" people from governing bodies have finally managed to encourage England golf clubs to once again respect equity.
The whole handicap system is cumbersome, unwieldy, unnecessary, and confusing (this what happens when committee's get involved) I used to play off 9 years ago, but now I wouldn't have a clue how to assess my handicap. It's become ridiculous.
I don’t think it’s rigged to favor single digit handicap players. Single digits don’t have nearly as wide a range of scores as higher handicaps, so they get a lot less really low net scores. At my club, we have different flights each week based on the range of handicap numbers we have in our club. We have four different flights (5 for the club championship) so players are only golfing against members with a handicap rather similar to their own. Everyone still gets to use their full handicap for net score events. It works well for us.
@@scottdean27 I had a handicap representative from Massachusetts golf admit to me in writing that the handicap system is skewed to reduce the number of times a single digit handicapper will lose to a higher number golfer. The whole truth is that one lucky round is given great strength to my handicap on the low side vs. the 50 scores that actually reveals my true ability. This is how they reduce high handicappers index and put us at a disadvantage. It’s rigged. Sorry
I AM SORRY BUT THIS DOES NOT ANSWER WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD. WE WERE TOLD THAT INCREMENTS SUCH AS 0.4 SO ON 0.6 ARE BEING DONE AWAY WITH SO HOW IS IT BEING STRUCTURED. would it be if I shoot say 38 pts I lose one shot 40 pts 2 shots , but if I shoot 33 pts or more handicap rises by a shot. ?? No ?? Well that is how it should be , and it's easier all round . This current crap and I have played over 30 years is crap , well how a handicap of 16.0 16.1.or 16.2 is 16 is fine but then from 16.3 to 17.4 is 17 is crap. IT HAS BECOME SO DAFT THAT ITS HARD FOR THE RABBIT AND SENIOR SECTIONS TO GET PLAYERS FOR TEAMS. WORST WE HAD WAS 7 PLAYERS INCLUDING LADIES FOR RABBITS SO MATCH CANCELLED AND FRIENDLY FORMAT PLAYED. ALSO I am only 15.6 but in pairs last year out of 10 matches 8 I was off scratch and giving 6 an 8 shots away while it makes me try harder its tough.
R&A and USGA are deluded... the WHS is an awful handicap system. At its core a handicap system is supposed to make it a level playing field. Just look at the winning scores since it's introduction, 50 points winning pairs events, 100 points winning 4 man teams. If any club near me said they were going to go back to the old system, I'd join in a heartbeat.
The WHS system and calculations (average of best eight scores out of last twenty scores) are correct in theory. However, if there are a large number of thirty plus handicap golfers in a club competition or tournament, there is a higher chance that one or more of these high handicap golfers will score an exceptionally good nett score and better than the lower handicap golfers. So this means the latter will find it more difficult to win comps.
@zazhou so it's not a level playing field. The old system took every round a golfer ever played into account, making it much harder to Sand bag shots bac, and if a 28 handicapper had a great comp he would come down a lot and probably be general played if it was an exeptional score. This system is so easy to fiddle. I play off 1, but in 20 rounds time I have a new handicap. I could just average 10 over for 2 months and up we go. There's no measure of a players ability, just their form, which can be fiddled. Bring back Congu, it wasn't broken until the bell ends in power decided to fix it
@@Erictheking66 so I am not familiar with the CONGU handicap system in your country and it's merits and demerits. Just to clarify further what I said above, a low handicap golfer will tend to have less of a dispersion in his twenty scores than a high handicap golfer. Therein lies the problem with 'equal chances' of winning a competition where there are many participants.
Have lost faith in system after low single figure players getting up to double figures by putting in numerous high 9 hole scores off yellows. Prob trying to drive every par 4, well it is practice, right? Then they win nearly every comp last year almost playing to scratch.
I really doubt it because I'm not nearly good enough to take advantage of the current ball. There's very little difference in my scores when I use a ten year old ball (yes, I do have some) or distance balls versus spin balls. My handicap? 9, so I'm not exactly a hacker although some days feel like it.
Do you know how a course rating is done?@@kenphillips7594 I'm on a 4...been down to a 2. I've taken a cours rating seminar with one of the guys that worked on the WHS. And I still feel like a hacker....
Landing zones are going to change for the bogey player (200 yds men) and scratch player (250yds/men). Ladies landing zones will change. Things in landing zone don't account for much in rating (around 2-4% in course rating). The biggest change will be the courses playing around give or take - 5% longer and distance accounts for around 96-98% of the course rating @@nationalclubgolfer
Just a thought when you mention gender. What will the usga and r an A do when an individual decides they want to play as a different nominated gender. Just saying this is going to be a can of worms. Now we are all supposedly forward thinkers. 😢
Lol. Prizes for scrambles. hahahahaha... scramble isn't competitive golf. Fun, for some sure. Golf.. no.... Perhaps we should have Scramble caps and Golfer caps. 😊😊
Instead off changing all these stupid things, surely be much more easier to just scrap whs and go back to a the old system that had nothing wrong with it.🤷🏼♂️
Handicap system has been created and maintained in only golf clubs for what reason ? To nourish the big EGO of a bunch of guys who don’t count all theirs shots. On a par 5 they don’t play 8 or 9 shots NEVER….max +2….. thus permitting these GREATS player to argue who should get the $32.15 cents pot I play 84/85 on great day or 93 on very bad day but I’m still have a lot of fun with my buddies and friends on the course. No putt given , no handicap, no Mulligan ….play and assume…. golf is a metaphor of life
@@nationalclubgolfer that’s right, but if you shoot a double on a hole with a stroke, you take a triple. It’s net double “with” handicap stroke. Therefore it’s possible to take a net triple.
W A Y to much rhetoric. Through the giggles and all somewhere there exists a conclusion. I guess it was the Ping and the Cobra? Or was it the Taylor made? This lady really likes to hear herself T a l k.
It's basically a load of bull, the old ss system was fine. Why are we pandering to people who cannot play the game and don't practise to get to a respectable level. Nor everyone is going to be able to play golf.
So it's handicap to par then 90% off . just do it as before Handicap 16 is 16 no giving ladies 3 curtesy shots . if you ladies want to enter men's comps fine the board dictates your handicap for that course and index is as on card . and if your 16.0 to 16.9 its 16 AND 17 .0 to 17.9 is 17 simple .pairs is fine stableford should be handicap . WHY I SHOULD GIVE A WOMAN WHO PLAYS OFF A FORWARD TEE IN SAME COMP 3 CURTESY SHOTS THEN PLUS ONE MORE FOR 90% is not fair then difference in handicap sum total a lady off 18 gets 2 to start then 3 total 5 a different course but same comp . WELL THANKYOU I WILL PLAY WITH PALS OUR FORMAT NOT ONLY IS IT FAIR BUT FUN AND BETTER GOLF OH AND WE HAVE FUN AND A CHANCE OF WINNING .
No such thing as courtesy shots. Shots are allocated according to the tee course rating & slope so the player gets what they are due..... welcome to the 21st century.😂
Lost the will to live,listening to Hannah, the powers to be must be sitting in their tower laughing.Too complicated for people to bother for a handicap, many can't even abide by the more simple rules let alone this .she explains clearly but ,well i suggest people see how often its applied. People are already manufacturing a higher handicap
All I can say is that I’m glad you just put your gross score in for whatever you play and the system works it all out.
Agreed 😂😂😂😂
This is not a critique of the messenger because I am a a loyal subscriber and thank her for the update. I feel the reactions to recent changes by the major associations of golf are indeed unpopular by the amateur base. Thanks for the update.
Agree
My issue was mentioned in your video, is sandbagging particularly higher handicappers who play very few comps per year but then are unplayable in match plays and four ball better balls, I think they should have to play in 10 or more comps per year to have a competition handicap as they did in the old system.
My mantra is now, “In Competition just turn up and play”. Handicaps will sort themselves out, or someone will, 😂
This all makes me glad that I don't bother worrying about a handicap. I'm out there playing for my own enjoyment, so I'm just trying to get as close to par as possible and don't care what my handicap is supposed to be.
You can't play in club events without a handicap
@@michaelmccaffrey2379 I don't play in club events. I play public courses, I don't even participate in their Mens' Association events, and I get everything I want out of a round of golf. The only time I play competitively at all is my annual company golf tournament, which is always a four-man scramble and most years I've effectively carried the other three (they like to put me with new golfers because I'm good enough that they have fun, but not intimidatingly good, and I'm not so intense that new golfers feel bad about screwing up.)
There's nothing wrong with playing for leisure and enjoyment, and you don't have to recalculate your handicap after every round that way...
Not sure how you enjoy hacking your way around a course not really knowing what you’re doing
@@juanhunglow2220 I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm just really inconsistent about how well I do it.
As. Single figure H/C I stopped playing club comps. If you enter a comp - you like to think you have some chance of winning - but it is virtually impossible now. Case in point - shot a gross 73 in a society game this year and still lost by 4 points stableford. 🙄🤠🤠
yeah I agree. There should be some advantage to a low handicap in some tournaments. Though the new system is supposed to give lower handicaps a better chance. I don't understand how though.
You may of found out by now if your course has forced you to go off the yellow tees for winter. It’s even worse for low single figure golfers 😫
Well explained. I found out about the CR - par option by accident when reading about the new WHS system on the R&A website prior to its launch. Completely debunked the marketing hype of ‘a single universal system’!! As far as I know most countries, including the USA adopted the CR - par option, the notable exceptions being England & Ireland.
Thanks, Hannah. That explains the new changes really well. I have been struggling with some of the changes.
thank you!!
WHS is the best thing that happened to h/caps. Its now much fairer when playing on courses that are far harder than the course you mainly aquired your h/cap on using the UHS
Bullshit
It needs to address the high handicappers, who appear for the classics and fourball competitions knowing they won't be cut . To me their the shoplifters of golf. There's no difference in stealing from a shop, and stealing from your golf club.
Maybe every golf club should be obliged to register every competition where prizes are won, with the EGU who could hold a data base of all such competitions so that the names of these bandits who spoil it for others are monitored and suspended for malpractice?
I think we already have that in Australia. When I play at other courses, I sometimes get up to two shots added when I play in a comp there...
I was thinking the same thing, and on some courses I lose a shot or two.
Most of what she is talking about has already been implemented in Australia. Our 27 hole course has upwards of 300 players every Saturday over 3 different 18 hole combinations. As each course varies in rating handicaps are adjusted accordingly by the system prior to start of play.
The system also handicaps good results in 4BBB events.
Same here in NZ, looks like down under is ahead of the curve. I’m a member of two clubs and I loose shots on the easier of the two, as it should be. End of the day “hit the ball, find it and hit it again” put your card in and don’t worry about the system……
The option for the 4 Ball scores is welcome. But sadly the bandits simply won't register it for handicapping unless the organisers insist. Which they rarely will imo, so the bandits will still sweep up the open prizes with the typical 48+ points...
If their CDH is being used to register players & the software calculating their scores then these will be automatically registered to their WHS record. Good!
I know bandits exist, but not every high points total is an example of banditry. I came in with 45 points playing a Mizuno comp this year. Playing at Princes down in Sandwich, first time there, first time to play links golf. I think my playing partners were suspicious of me, but I have entered about 70 cards this year, have reduced my rating from 20.9 to 15.2 in that time. Sometimes, it can just be your day.
@@nickpellatt Bet the applause was deafening when you got the trophy.
There’s no choice - it’s mandatory for clubs to upload 4bbb scores electronically
This system was the reason I stopped playing tournaments. Only just for fun with my wife and friends - I love it!!
We have the 18th hole (which is uphill) which is 475 par 5, but 460 off the yellows which had to be rated as a par 4. We can now make both white and yellow the same par.
Correct
We have a the 17th that is par 5 from the blue tees and par 4 from the white, yellow and reds. Simple😊
Great video as always Hannah, changes very well described and less confusing for me at least.
Glad it was helpful!
It won’t affect the score differential & therefore WON’T affect your handicap index. It only affects shots received on each course which will be the same for everybody.
A joke at the moment. We had a player from another club playing an open competition and he scored 47 points stableford. Parred nearly every hole but SCORED AN 8 ON THE LAST. A par on the last would have given him 50 points. You heard that right. An 8. Probably thought 47 would walk it and 50 points would be a little over the top. Didn't he realise, 47 was WELL OVER THE TOP. A joke. The winning scores at my club for any competition have gone up by at least 5 shots since WHS came in. What about the same system as now...plus, an extra 0.1 off for scores up to 2 points better than your handicap, 0.2 up to 4 better, 0.5 to 6, 1.0 to 8 plus. A bit severe ? NOBODY should be able to score more than about 6 shots more than their handicap and if you had the game of your life and shot 7 or 8 under your handicap you wouldn't be too bothered about losing a few shots off your handicap for that would you. Uh, if your honest that is. 47 with an 8 on the last from a 14 handicapper, A JOKE.
That’s more like a BB score what a bandit. I’ve had 10 years without playing and come back with a handicap that’s 8 strokes worse than when I stopped. I can honestly say that due to time I put now I.e. once a week I have never shot a round better than 3 under my handicap. When I played before was off 13 and shot 3 rounds of 74 for 3 consecutive rounds that got me down to 7 handicap. Shooting low numbers is possible but it’s not the norm.
that's because the UK didn't implement the WHS corrrectly. Go and look at my earlier comment explaining how playing hcps for the day are calculated based on slope rating & course rating.
That's the down side of playing all competitions as stableford.
In stroke round that 8 would have reduced the score back.
In Australia, almost all our club comps are stableford, and in grades so low markers, less than 12 are only competing against that grade.
The handicap is re calculated on gross score.
Golf needs to be simplified this sounds mental
It is pretty complex 😂
Just wish they would make cutting high handicappers in comparison as a low..
Not sure it will resolve the high h/c romping comps week in week out and taking away the clubs ability to cut accordingly.
Definition of 'simple' - easily understood or done. 😂 One of the drivers of WHS was to iron out inconsistencies, another to encourage participation in the game. Administrators now playing a mulligan having spent way more than 3 minutes addressing this handicap set up and need to get a grip.
I thought I was listening to Stephan Hawking explaining time and the origin of the universe..
Wont be bothering with club comps next year, its so much in favour of higher handicappers with zero incentive to improve.
Our matchplay won by 13 hcap
Our strokeplay won by 17 hcap
Our greensomes won by a 19 and 32 hcap
Our foursomes won by a 21 and 25 hcap
Our fourball won by 9 and 17 hcap
Our seniors won by 28 hcap
Pointless
Good point. How can this be fair? Under the old system none of them would have won anything😂
In stableford the holes not played are wipes. No points. The card goes in as No score, but is still in your rolling 20 from which best 8 are averaged for your index.
Prettiest golfer on the planet. Thanks Hannah
As an American, I would really like to know what dialect Hannah's accent is? It adds to the great content of her videos.
She said Alwoodley GC was her home course which is in the Leeds area which is in Yorkshire.
West Yorkshire😂
To us Southerners she’s just (joost) northern. 😂
Hannah is the white rose of Yorkshire😇
Love Hannah's accent. I visit Yorkshire regularly, it's a lovely part of the country with nice friendly people.
The WHS is great so that everyone can get a handicap but as a club member who’s always played regularly in comps it’s terrible. Your handicap jumps around too much. You can win a comp and still go up cos a better score drops off the bottom. Players can manipulate their scores before they play a match. It relies on everyone putting cards in all the time which not everyone wants or should have to do. Was much simpler before.
Sure, players CAN manipulate their scores but it's extremely unlikely to happen. Think about it - only comp scores count towards your handicap. Let's say you wanted to get your handicap up so you've got a better chance in the monthly medal. At an absolute minimum, you'd have to deliberately play bad in 8 comps in order for your best 8 scores to drop off your 20. Realistically that would only happen if scores 13-20 were all your best ones - and that's going to be practically impossible. So, in order to guarantee that your 8 best scores drop off you're going to have to play 20 deliberately bad comps and you're going to get caught trying to cheat the system long before those 20 rounds are played. And, if you just don't put cards in then it's not going to affect your handicap at all and the club will still get suspicious and probably not let you compete anyway.
@@mistamichalyou can put a card in every time you play under WHS. It doesn’t have to be in a competition
@@derekwhyle1884 Wow! I just looked that up because I didn't believe you. You're right. I had no idea you could do that. That WOULD be easy to cheat the system then. I'd grab a mate and go out for a few rounds to it myself but my handicap's already high enough on its own 😝
The system is open to abuse as can be manipulated far too easy.. as a 1 handicapper it has made it almost impossible for me to even feature in any normal comps.. with scores regularly 5-7 under par winning, in the main from players between 8-15.. with players handicaps jumping high quickly.. the fluctuation in handicaps is ridiculous.. my mate went from plus 2 to 3 and back to scratch in 3 months.. I play open events and often see 47-50 points winning betterball comps.. and while the new system could accommodate this it’s dependent on the player wanting to enter the score.. 🙈🙈
Absolutely spot on , and this change will only make it worse for low handicap players.
Totally with you guys, as a 40 Yr cat 1 player no point entering comps any more due to crap whs , can't shoot gross 65s to get in top 3, instead play with similar hcap pals where good golf wins 👍
@@paulf5806 very similar to me.. we have a fiddle where the low handicappers all throw in £5 place pot for 1st and 2nd.. no point paying into club comps anymore.. 🙈🙈
@@nigelcooke8590 exactly the same as us !!!
Unfortunately our usual fourball of handicaps ranging from 3 to 8 are not allowed to play independently of the usual competition so we basically “ donate £4 each” weekly to the usual suspects of 18 to 27 or so hips. WHS has wrecked our sport. It doesn’t encourage anyone to improve their handicaps. Quite the contrary. It encourages decent players to have high handicaps in order to pick up trophies and oodles of cash.
Great video. Must have been a few outtakes 😊
Definitely with me making sure I said it all right 😂😂😂
Thanks for this video! Definitely helps make the confusion less although it’s still confusing lol. Great video nonetheless!
Glad it helped!
I thought she was speaking Chinese for all the gobbledygook.
The mantra KISS (keep it simple, stupid) seems to have bypassed the authors of the World Handicap System. They seem to be following the advice of "If it ain't broken, break it."
Course rating is already used for hcp calculation
That's what I thought.. Virtually no change for me
Honestly, I gave up caring when it changed to WFH just turn up and play my round try to shoot as low as I can, right now I'm a 2.2 index. Still people out there cheating their scores and wining comps
In terms of an individual’s course handicap previously not reflecting the course rating, what was introduced here a few yrs ago was dumb AF. The English union in their arrogance ignored the experience of most of the world. The new advantages are a) you will now know that 36 pts or nett par is playing to your handicap. Full stop; b) players can choose what tee they play off when playing with friends - the assigned course handicaps take care of the difference in difficulty; c) clubs can introduce comps where multiple tees are used
I fully agree with you. Amazing difference between your sunshine thinking and @darylwoods1874 moonlight thinking.
The issue in a competition of 40 is that a high handicapper will come 1st to 40th, a low handicapper will come 15th to 25th. The average is the same, the chance of winning isn't.
I’m off +0.2 under the old system I’d be off 1.4 so nearly two. It’s a fact under the new system your handicap everyone is off approximately two less. Getting to scratch was considered the pinnacle of amateur golf not now. I’ve got mates of 2 who were 4 handicappers under the old system.
Getting totally fed up with this system overall,i need a calculator to play a comp nowadays....i can honestly say i wont be bothering with 3 comps a week anymore and I'll just play for fun
What are you using a calculator for?
It’s simple
Do you use your calculator to add up your score!😂😂
Nice explanations Hannah, thank you, but you missed an important one, as I understand it shots will now be calculated from your exact, not the course. So, I’m a 3.4 actual, but on my home course I get 4 shots, am I right in assuming that with the no rounding it will be calculated as 3.4?
Everyone would have a lower HC if they had a pro caddy like TV to tell them what club to hit and where to hit it and how the green breaks
I won’t bother and just enjoy playing golf.
Did you say 36 points on 9 holes ? if so i agree that needs looking at !!!
It assumes you score 18 points on the 9 holes you didn't play.
Yes I think that didn't come across very clearly.
I like to know why in a club competition we don't get our full entitlement
It's to give low handicappers a slight chance to compete. 10% off is nothing for a 3 handicap but is 2 shots off a 20hcp 👍
Surely the course rating should reflect the “scratch golfer” playing said course anyway 🤷🏻♂️
The best system is. If it's a par 72 and you shoot 75 means simple 3 over then your hcp is 3. It shouldn't matter what course it is. 3 over is 3 over they made the last 20 years of hcp much just keep it simple.
I think my brain just dribbled out of my ears.
Thanks Jim😂
Was that a bogey
While I understand the new hcap system is trying to address certain issues. It just seems so confusing, also weather plays a big part in the difficulty of a course.
The old system took account of conditions on the day with a standard scratch for the tournament. In many tournaments at our course situated by the the sea were wind is the norm and a huge factor we only have 6 or 7 players out of 70 scoring par or better but your handicap keeps increasing. Does the new system take this into account.
Yes there is something called the PCC which looks at all the scores inputted that day on your course and makes any relevant adjustments. From my experience I wouldn't say it moves as much as the old system did though.
Pcc is useless , club champ weekend 40 mph both days pcc hiding at r&a 😢
It certainly does not work at our course i dont think our committee knows of its existence@@paulf5806
@hannahholdenNCG ..... Many thanks from Wike Ridge GC for this explaination. Many of the complaints Ive read were present in the old system as well as the idea that you only needed 3 scores each year in order to maintain an 'active h/cap'...... ridiculous. Any system still needs an active & smart Match & H/cap team to ensure fair play. Some real dinosaurs making comments on here.😂😂
So the actual handicap will not be affected, but it's just the amount of shots you receive? I think this is definitely going to help at our course, because I'm correcting people all the time. Basically if we play off the middle tees, the course rating is 66.7 on a par 70. (Slope 108). I play off 15 and get 14 shots. If I were to shoot a 14 over round (84) then the differential is 18.0. So I'm playing 3 shots over my handicap. The amount of times I've seen people hit the amount of shots they get and they say they've played their handicap, but they haven't. They've played 3 over their handicap. I believe this change will now negate this a little, and I will probably be getting 11 shots for a round now playing off 15.0, not 14. You can see it in our stableford comps because winners regularly have like 42. It will be rare to see someone shoot in the 40s now.
Where do you get the printed info sheet from please.
What gloves are you using for winter Hannah ?
They are actually TaylorMade rain gloves! Warm but not too thick!
For all the whingers on here who obviouasly don't understand, or more to the point, don't want to understand how the WHS works. First of all actual hcps, whether for beginnders or long term players, are calculated under the WHS as follows:
Rounds 1 & 2 - No hcp
Round 3 - Lowest played to over the first 3 rounds MINUS 2
Round 4 - Lowest played to over the first 4 rounds MINUS 1
Round 5 - Lowest played to over the first 5 rounds
Round 6 - Average of the 2 lowest played to for first 6 rounds MINUS 1
Rounds 7 & 8 - Average of the 2 lowest played to for the first 7 & 8 rounds
Rounds 9 - 11 - Average of the 3 lowest played to for the first 9 - 11 rounds
Rounds 12 - 14 - Average of the 4 lowest played to for the first 12 - 14 rounds
Rounds 15 & 16 - Average of the 5 lowest played to for the first 15 & 16 rounds
Rounds 17 & 18 - Average of the 6 lowest rounds played for teh first 17 & 18 rounds
Round 19 - Average of the 7 lowest played rounds for the first 19 rounds
Round 20 - Average of the 8 lowest played rounds for the first 20 rounds.
From round 20 onwards it's the average of your 8 best played to rounds out of your last 20 rounds.
So after 20 rounds have been submitted, every round the oldest of teh last 20 drops out and the new round goes into the calculation.
It doesn't matter whether you're a high hcper or low hcper this sytem is the ONLY hcp system I've been involved with over the past 55 years that is a true reflection of a players ability.
In additon to the above there is alsom an annual cap that restricts how far a hcp can blow out, and I believe that is 4 shots in a 12 month period, and for that to occur a player would need to be playing some damn aweful golf round after round. Submitting a really good score, say for example breaking by 6 shots, from my experience, again regardless of hcp it does not have anywhere as big an impact on a players hcp as it used to under all teh prvious hcp systems.
The WHS is a true refelection of ability and consistency.
Also this system, when used with a computer system will automatically take care of teh burglars who do not submit a card, because if golf clubs aren't too stingy, every player who commences a round is input into the system for the day and if they don't submit their scorecard, there is a formul.a in the software that will automatically give them a score and make the hcp adjustment accordingly. So not submitting a scorecard to protect a hcp will no longer be an option.
See my post from 4 days ago, hereunder, on how playing hcps are calculated for each round based on course slope ratings & course ratings.
As sadoldgit313 replied to my earlier post "not difficult at all is it, once yu understand how it works.
Brilliant and Correct @johnnoxley1946.
sadoldgit was being sarcastic.
Using Course Rating in playing handicap is a no brainer. All other countries in the world (except Thailand) already do this. Why England golf didn't do this from the start I have no idea.
They do use the course rating, but it's done in the background when calculating your handicap index. Just because you don't see it happening, doesn't mean it doesn't get used.
@@darrenleake3343 I know but the current system has caused unnecessary confusion. Most people play on courses with a rating lower than par and complain about such high stableford scores not understanding that a rating of 70 against par of 72 for example means everyone is getting 2 'free' points.
Our handicap committee used to cut players handicaps 2 shots for winning a club competition, including pairs. Everyone knew how handicaps were worked out. We knew who the bandits were, and they were dealt with accordingly. We also gave handicaps to junior golfers based on par 3 rounds. The R&A removed this discretion from clubs, deciding instead to put money into the pockets of software suppliers. The overblown and overpaid R&A is too powerful. Clubs and their memberships should be granted more discretion to make their own decisions.
About time we golfers got a say in the game, whs should be put to a uk wide vote to get rid of it and the r&a had no right to inflict it on us !!!🤮
Isn't the course rating minus par etc etc already used in calculating your score differentials?? It's called PCC, playing conditions calculation. I know i've seen it on my differentials listings a number of times this season.
PCC and SSS are different parameters. PCC is used in the event of adverse or beneficial conditions depending on the scores produced by the whole field of competitors. SSS (Standard Scratch Score) is used in every calculation of handicap for the round regardless of playing conditions.
@@ianburton9223 correct, ut one of the new things to come in for 2024 is to do with playing conditions calculation, and they're calling it course rating minus par and its going to be used more often than the current abnormal conditions calc. Something to do with course setup etc. What I was saying is that is you setup the course harder (tough pins etc for a club major), then you can already use the pcc to add +1 or +2 to your differential for that day already. I dont think it needs changing from its current form.
@@darrenleake3343 I believe you may still be confusing two parameters that are totally unrelated.Playing conditions relate to how a particular course is being played in a particular competition and is based upon the scores produced in that particular event.
Course rating is a figure determined through a detailed study of the layout and difficulty of a course according to well defined guidelines that allow different courses to be compared and handicaps adjusted appropriately.
Playing conditions adjustment can change from day to day on a particular course and particular event.
Course ratings are generally fixed for a course for several years and are not affected by playing conditions or course setup for a particular event. Course ratings are there to ensure that players from a high rating course do not have an unfair advantage when they play on a course with a low course rating.
It's far from perfect, but it is better than having 17 handicap players from a difficult championship course claiming their 17 strokes on an easy municipal course.
@@ianburton9223 I didnt say course rating. i said "course rating minus par" that is the full thing they're bringing in for 2024, and it works exactly the same as PCC but is supposedly more accurate.
@@darrenleake3343 I appreciate this is new to England golf, but elsewhere golfers have been playing with this system for several years now. What you refer to as course rating we call Standard Scratch Score. Course rating is assessed on the basis of what scratch golfers have played from the tees selected for that competition. What you call course rating is part of the calculation of handicap for the day and is used before a competition starts. PCC is used after the competition and is based on the results produced over the various handicap ranges during that particular event..
Both parameters have an effect on competition results and are based on previous results but are entirely independent of each other.
Before a competition starts individual player handicaps for a competition are based on Index x slope/113 - (Course rating - par).
I believe we use the term Standard Scratch Score rather than course rating to avoid the potential ambiguity with the slope parameter that allows handicaps to be adjusted according to relative difficulty of different courses.
Everything that I have written in these posts can be confirmed by looking up the relevant committee procedures and the WHS procedures.
Golf is killing itself
This is a terrible part of the system that is in place in North America right now. The problem comes because this is a flat score regardless of your handicap. And it is different depending on which tee you play.
So if you are a scratch Golfer being forced to play off the forward tees, the course may be rated 68.0 for a 72 par. That means (everything else being equal) you have to shoot -4 to play to your handicap. A 24 handicap also loses 4 shots, so he has to shoot +20 to play to their handicap. Now anyone who has even played golf a few times realises that it is immensely easier for a 24 handicap, to shoot +20, than it is for a scratch golfer to shoot 4 under par, particularly if you are playing a tournament set up and less than ideal conditions.
My advice to low handicappers is to not enter handicap tournaments unless there is an equal value gross prize, but even then if your handicap is between 5 and about 12, you are going to find it really hard to win anything, if there are a full range of handicaps playing. My feeling on stroke-play is it gets fair at about 75% of calculated handicap or less, particularly when there is a maximum score on a hole to speed up play.
I sometimes wonder if anyone at the R&A or USGA have ever played the game, or maybe the handicap system is a business vehicle designed to get new players into the game, not an attempt to make competitions fair. They should realize that a net birdie on a hole is far harder when you don't get a shot, compared to when you get 2-shots. I have played net skins, in a club competition and had every skin going to a net hole in one on par 3s, when playing off 5, I got a shot on none of them! Every single par 3 was under 150 yards from the senior tees. They didn't even get the beers in!
The handicap system is so incompetent and unfit for purpose, it is laughable. Our club Championship had 7 players in it this year, the net prize won by a 25 handicap, who won by 17 shots over 2 rounds. The conditions were tough, the lowest single round was 77 (+5).
Golf is a dying game, it is too expensive and totally mismanaged at the very top.
To someone outside the UK, most of these "changes" look like bringing the UK into line with the rest of the world. For too long England golf has been hiding from reality to protect ancient habits. So I would expect that England golfers on holiday outside that part of the UK will appreciate the reduced suspicions of artificial handicaps.
Geez it must be cold there!! How can you swing freely when you're rugged up so much?
Basically freezing here! I have lots of practice in layers from years of English winters 😂
It’s hard enough trying to play the darned game without all this bullshit. Why can’t everyone just go out & enjoy the game. It’s way too complicated. I couldn’t care less about handicaps anymore. Make it easier not so complicated that no-one understands it. It’ll drive people away.
😂😂 it has become a crazy system in parts
The only reason this will affect you poms is because you didn't implement these things from the beginning of the WHS. As @alisonborchers94 posted, these changes are already in effect in Australia & other countries and have been since the commencement of the WHS with the exception of the new 9 hole rubbish & teh par 3 courses. They were ALWAYS in the WHS formula, it's just that the poms and yanks were too lazy to implement the system correctly in the first place, so the R&A and the USGA are covering their rear ends by stating they are new changes, for teh most part, they are NOT. Here's an example of how it should be working: #1. Course A-par 72. Slope rating 125. Course rating 70. Player hcp is 15. Multiply hcp of 15 by slope rating of 125 = 1875; divide by standard slope rating of 113 = 16.59 subtract par 72 = -55.4 plus course rating 70 = 14.59, multiply by 0.93 = 13.56. Playing hcp for that round will be 14.
#2. Course B - slope rating of 115, par 71, course rating 69.5. Player hcp is 15. Multiply hcp of 15 by slope rating of 115 = 1725; divide by standard slope rating of 113 = 15.26 subtract par 71 = -55.73 plus course rating 70 = 14.26, multiply by 0.93 = 13.26. Playing hcp for that round will be 13.
Also please note that even though players only need to record their strokes taken for each hole, when the score cards are submitted those stroke scores or par event scores are converted to stableford points to calculate the hcp actually played to for each round.
Not difficult at all…. is it?
Can you repeat that please?
🤣🤣🤣
I play off 6. In shot 8 over in a comp, but pcc was 2 & it had me as 6 over on whs. what’s all that about.
The course was playing hard that day so you got 2 shots taken off your score
@@Cornwall1888I’ve got no chance of winning comps now. 46 points won the last one. I’d have to shoot 5 under par to win. I’ve got no chance playing off 6. Pointless low hcp players competing.
@@2sqnbandit379 that’a always been the case, years ago I shot 71 and was beaten by a 28 handicap who shot 89, it is what it is
Pcc was also around before this system it was called standard scratch
@@Cornwall1888 yeah i only play comps with categories now. Too many bandits.
@@2sqnbandit379 I only care about my own score and handicap now, last time I won a competition I shot 2 under off 7 something that should only happen once in a lifetime so I think I’m done winning completions unless my handicap goes up a bit
I’ve shot 71 and lost to a 28 who shot 89 before, that hurt
Is this for EU only? I thought the USGA course handicap is already calculated this "NEW" way, course rating - par?
Potentially yes
The last change in handicap system was unnecessary. The authorities are admitting they got it wrong by changing it so soon. Why don’t you include pitch and putt courses and crazy golf in the system too? At this rate the courses will be so full that a round will take all day and only a few will complete a round. It is not uncommon now to see people walking off the course because the play is so slow, these changes will only slow it down further.
Love to know why the 'faceless' people from these governing bodies had to fiddle with the handicap system in the first place with this WHS system when probably the vast majority just play golf for the sake of friendship within their own club and if they win a competition then great , which again creates great banter amongst fellow players. Will the vast majority be playing in open competitions to win them? (most people I know who play in them do so to play at nice courses at a good price). Will the vast number of players play abroad with the intentions of winning competitions (doubt it very much). Now they are making it even more complicated, so much so that more talk will be of the handicap system than the golf.
I am not sure you really would "love to know". If you had not already understood that the traditional England Golf handicap system produced situations that, according to many people playing to handicaps based on rounds played outside England, regarded as declaring false handicaps. Then I can understand your moonlight thinking. Check out the post by @ianashton1226 which succinctly explains why England golf had to conform, in a number of stages, with the rest of the golf world.
Once upon a time the word equity was in the rules. The England golf handicap system did not respect equity. Now the "faceless" people from governing bodies have finally managed to encourage England golf clubs to once again respect equity.
I don’t have the capacity (I can’t be arsed) I just let the computer work it out
The whole handicap system is cumbersome, unwieldy, unnecessary, and confusing (this what happens when committee's get involved) I used to play off 9 years ago, but now I wouldn't have a clue how to assess my handicap. It's become ridiculous.
All you have to do is enter some scores and it’s calculated for you. Couldn’t be much easier
It’s rigged to favor the single digit player.
@@billwatkins8227aye so it is 😂
I don’t think it’s rigged to favor single digit handicap players. Single digits don’t have nearly as wide a range of scores as higher handicaps, so they get a lot less really low net scores. At my club, we have different flights each week based on the range of handicap numbers we have in our club. We have four different flights (5 for the club championship) so players are only golfing against members with a handicap rather similar to their own. Everyone still gets to use their full handicap for net score events. It works well for us.
@@scottdean27 I had a handicap representative from Massachusetts golf admit to me in writing that the handicap system is skewed to reduce the number of times a single digit handicapper will lose to a higher number golfer. The whole truth is that one lucky round is given great strength to my handicap on the low side vs. the 50 scores that actually reveals my true ability. This is how they reduce high handicappers index and put us at a disadvantage. It’s rigged. Sorry
Just put the hole score down the system will sort it out
Great approach👌
I AM SORRY BUT THIS DOES NOT ANSWER WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD. WE WERE TOLD THAT INCREMENTS SUCH AS 0.4 SO ON 0.6 ARE BEING DONE AWAY WITH SO HOW IS IT BEING STRUCTURED. would it be if I shoot say 38 pts I lose one shot 40 pts 2 shots , but if I shoot 33 pts or more handicap rises by a shot. ?? No ?? Well that is how it should be , and it's easier all round . This current crap and I have played over 30 years is crap , well how a handicap of 16.0 16.1.or 16.2 is 16 is fine but then from 16.3 to 17.4 is 17 is crap. IT HAS BECOME SO DAFT THAT ITS HARD FOR THE RABBIT AND SENIOR SECTIONS TO GET PLAYERS FOR TEAMS. WORST WE HAD WAS 7 PLAYERS INCLUDING LADIES FOR RABBITS SO MATCH CANCELLED AND FRIENDLY FORMAT PLAYED. ALSO I am only 15.6 but in pairs last year out of 10 matches 8 I was off scratch and giving 6 an 8 shots away while it makes me try harder its tough.
Will your history of scores be recalculated using the new system. April 1st will our indexes change?
No just new scores will be affected
R&A and USGA are deluded... the WHS is an awful handicap system. At its core a handicap system is supposed to make it a level playing field. Just look at the winning scores since it's introduction, 50 points winning pairs events, 100 points winning 4 man teams. If any club near me said they were going to go back to the old system, I'd join in a heartbeat.
The WHS system and calculations (average of best eight scores out of last twenty scores) are correct in theory. However, if there are a large number of thirty plus handicap golfers in a club competition or tournament, there is a higher chance that one or more of these high handicap golfers will score an exceptionally good nett score and better than the lower handicap golfers. So this means the latter will find it more difficult to win comps.
@zazhou so it's not a level playing field. The old system took every round a golfer ever played into account, making it much harder to Sand bag shots bac, and if a 28 handicapper had a great comp he would come down a lot and probably be general played if it was an exeptional score. This system is so easy to fiddle. I play off 1, but in 20 rounds time I have a new handicap. I could just average 10 over for 2 months and up we go. There's no measure of a players ability, just their form, which can be fiddled. Bring back Congu, it wasn't broken until the bell ends in power decided to fix it
@@Erictheking66 so I am not familiar with the CONGU handicap system in your country and it's merits and demerits. Just to clarify further what I said above, a low handicap golfer will tend to have less of a dispersion in his twenty scores than a high handicap golfer. Therein lies the problem with 'equal chances' of winning a competition where there are many participants.
Must admit I thought the scores at my local club settled down since the new system was implemented and like the new system
Agree- cheats charter
Have lost faith in system after low single figure players getting up to double figures by putting in numerous high 9 hole scores off yellows. Prob trying to drive every par 4, well it is practice, right? Then they win nearly every comp last year almost playing to scratch.
Sorry but i am lost after 1 minute
By now it must be clear that the new handicap system has become nothing more than a demotivating lottery.
Please , be careful. My handicap will not, but can change in 2024, that should be your wording.
So complicated old way drop .1.2.3 under par of course so simple
Another handicap joke. Is it April 1st - April fools day?
Plus it should be in category golf comps. 1 2 & 3.
Couldn’t help but laugh at this! Not your fault but really ………Bring back SSS and club committee ? Just go out and enjoy the game.
Course ratings are going to change with ball rollback.
Will be interested to see if they do🤔
I really doubt it because I'm not nearly good enough to take advantage of the current ball. There's very little difference in my scores when I use a ten year old ball (yes, I do have some) or distance balls versus spin balls. My handicap? 9, so I'm not exactly a hacker although some days feel like it.
Do you know how a course rating is done?@@kenphillips7594 I'm on a 4...been down to a 2. I've taken a cours rating seminar with one of the guys that worked on the WHS. And I still feel like a hacker....
Landing zones are going to change for the bogey player (200 yds men) and scratch player (250yds/men). Ladies landing zones will change. Things in landing zone don't account for much in rating (around 2-4% in course rating). The biggest change will be the courses playing around give or take - 5% longer and distance accounts for around 96-98% of the course rating @@nationalclubgolfer
No they won't, the ball roll back only affects pro tournaments
No club can go back to the old system that's why it's called world handicap system.
Why !
What a load of crap. Jobs worth for a lot of people in the R & A and USGA. Makes the "Off Side" rule and "Hand Ball" in football easy to understand
Just a thought when you mention gender. What will the usga and r an A do when an individual decides they want to play as a different nominated gender. Just saying this is going to be a can of worms. Now we are all supposedly forward thinkers. 😢
Lol. Prizes for scrambles. hahahahaha...
scramble isn't competitive golf. Fun, for some sure. Golf.. no....
Perhaps we should have Scramble caps and Golfer caps. 😊😊
Instead off changing all these stupid things, surely be much more easier to just scrap whs and go back to a the old system that had nothing wrong with it.🤷🏼♂️
Is that available in hardback 😂😂
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Handicap system has been created and maintained in only golf clubs for what reason ? To nourish the big EGO of a bunch of guys who don’t count all theirs shots. On a par 5 they don’t play 8 or 9 shots NEVER….max +2….. thus permitting these GREATS player to argue who should get the $32.15 cents pot
I play 84/85 on great day or 93 on very bad day but I’m still have a lot of fun with my buddies and friends on the course. No putt given , no handicap, no Mulligan ….play and assume…. golf is a metaphor of life
Im still as bad😳
It's not gender it's sex.
Correct, or there would be a hundred plus different tee boxes.
Male or Female.. simple.
Oh, and it’s not net double bogey. It’s net double plus handicap on that hole. It could be net triple. Let’s confuse us some more why don’t you.
The nett in nett double means your handicap is included in the calculation
😂 what a sausage
@@nationalclubgolfer that’s right, but if you shoot a double on a hole with a stroke, you take a triple. It’s net double “with” handicap stroke. Therefore it’s possible to take a net triple.
WHS is utter rubbish unless you're rubbish at golf
Handicap what a joke ! how it is that the vast majority of players are displaying an index and playing at least 10 over it !
This system has ruined golf. It’s a cheats charter
W A Y to much rhetoric. Through the giggles and all somewhere there exists a conclusion. I guess it was the Ping and the Cobra? Or was it the Taylor made? This lady really likes to hear herself T a l k.
It's basically a load of bull, the old ss system was fine.
Why are we pandering to people who cannot play the game and don't practise to get to a respectable level.
Nor everyone is going to be able to play golf.
So it's handicap to par then 90% off . just do it as before Handicap 16 is 16 no giving ladies 3 curtesy shots . if you ladies want to enter men's comps fine the board dictates your handicap for that course and index is as on card . and if your 16.0 to 16.9 its 16 AND 17 .0 to 17.9 is 17 simple .pairs is fine stableford should be handicap . WHY I SHOULD GIVE A WOMAN WHO PLAYS OFF A FORWARD TEE IN SAME COMP 3 CURTESY SHOTS THEN PLUS ONE MORE FOR 90% is not fair then difference in handicap sum total a lady off 18 gets 2 to start then 3 total 5 a different course but same comp . WELL THANKYOU I WILL PLAY WITH PALS OUR FORMAT NOT ONLY IS IT FAIR BUT FUN AND BETTER GOLF OH AND WE HAVE FUN AND A CHANCE OF WINNING .
No such thing as courtesy shots. Shots are allocated according to the tee course rating & slope so the player gets what they are due..... welcome to the 21st century.😂
Lost the will to live,listening to Hannah, the powers to be must be sitting in their tower laughing.Too complicated for people to bother for a handicap, many can't even abide by the more simple rules let alone this .she explains clearly but ,well i suggest people see how often its applied. People are already manufacturing a higher handicap