At the beginning you mentioned people enjoying videos with these rarer instruments, please do orchestration for those, but also do orchestration for standard instrumentation as well!! you have been the most helpful for me, someone who is teaching themself orchestration/composition. You explain everything so fluently and simply, it makes it so much easier to understand for me with my (current) gaps in knowledge. I dont know how common my experience is, but I'm very glad you exist. Anyway thats just my opinion, you've been a great resource for me.
I have never played the B-flat Contra, but what I like about the paperclip version is the fact that it is keyed to low C. I have always hated the fact that most of the E-flat contra clarinets only can go to a low E-flat. Usually the E-flat Contra has to play either tuba parts or try to transpose either Bass Clarinet or B-Flat Contra parts. That limitation to low E-flat hurts when playing either tuba or B-flat Contra parts.
@ Grainger didn’t use any clarinets lower than the Bass in any of his pieces. Any contra parts that exist are later additions that usually double the Contrabassoon part.
Very interesting … and timely😎 I’m a bassoon player too , and just received my EE flat great bass clarinet in the mail yesterday and a mouthpiece today!!! Will head to your store for Giraffatitan soon.
I love playing my Contra Alto Clarinet. I've got a Selmer Bundy, like yours, and it's simply lovely to play. I also find it frustrating the lack of repertoire for it. Often Eb Contra parts are just the Bb Parts with the lower notes up an Octave. Other times it's the Bass part transposed, which get none of the juicy low notes. I've put in a few Contrabassoon parts before, though with similar struggles to Bb Contra parts (I once used a cardboard tube to get a written low A which was fun.) I've considered buying one of those Jinbao Contrabass Clarinets, though even with the relatively low price it's still expensive for me (Being young and living in Australia.) I really envy people who have found cheap listings online for Contrabass clarinets, and for those in American schools who get to use them for free. I've a similar experience with Alto Clarinet, which I also love playing (are you sensing a theme here?) so I feel a bit constricted often. Anyhoo, nice video and I hope it raises awareness of these beautiful members of the Clarinet family.
I think I remember playing altissimo relatively easily on contra (even Bb contra) by adding R3 to the normal bass-clarinet-style altissimo fingerings (except C#) to force the other vent to be used.
Great discussion! I've thought about this distinction a lot, and I agree with everything you mentioned. The greatbass (contra-alto) is a lot more versatile than most give it credit for. It can reliably play high enough to cover some bass clarinet parts, its lower chalumeau wins out over the corresponding sounding range on the contrabass, and it's far easier for a non-specialist to pick up and learn than the contrabass. But in practice it suffers from being in between the bass and contrabass when you don't have enough players. Low C basses are increasingly more common nowadays (I have one myself!), and contrabasses are rare enough that a range to low C is basically a toss up if you happen to have access to one, as you mentioned in the video. It's just too easy to just write for the bass-contrabass duo than compromise with bass-greatbass. Ideally I'd want all 3 (and might as well throw in the alto while we're at it), the greatbass strengthens and complements both the bass and contrabass even if just playing in unison (or octaves). I've long considered a low C extension for added utility and to put it on an equal footing with low C basses and contrabasses. Ricardo QueroumClarone has a video showcasing one, and you can really hear a difference between the lowest octave and the corresponding sounding notes on the contrabass.
Plus a Low C EEb Sub-bass(my preferred term for Contra-alto) matches the range of a standard 4-string double/electric bass which opens many more applications for it!
I think we've talked before about Great Bass vs. Sub-Bass. To me, sub-bass implies infrasound, that is, sound that is below our hearing range. When we do see instruments with the prefix "sub" they are almost always below the contrabass range.
@@BretNewtonComposer I can appreciate your reasoning(including it being used among recorders)- though my main reason for preferring "sub-bass" is mainly because it's a less confusing term- one can easily misinterpret a "Great Bass Clarinet" as "Great(as with quality) Bb Bass Clarinet" rather than an "EEb Great Bass Clarinet". Also "Sub" to me merely implies "lower than". In the end of the day it's all semantics and we can 100% agree that the EEb is way underutilized!
@ I wonder if it should really be Greatbass or Great-Bass to avoid any confusion. I do make it a point to always capitalize specific instrument names to avoid a situation like this. There’s a difference between a great Bass Clarinet and a Great Bass Clarinet.
Also, you don't need a half hole for the long fingerings in the altissimo. Just take LH1 off completely for C# and D, and then add throat G# to get up to around F# or G. After that you don't use half hole anyway
@@BretNewtonComposer I haven't actually made one for the Eb contra yet... for the most part the bass or Bb contra should work, but there are just some tricks like this in the lower altissimo to know about for Eb contra. I've been meaning to make a video about playing altissimo on the contra for a while now...
I seem to remember playing altissimo relatively easily on contra (even Bb contra) by adding R3 to the normal bass-clarinet-style altissimo fingerings (except C#) to force the other vent to be used.
Orchestras have never adopted the Eb, and I honestly couldn't tell you why. Perhaps its a stigma that it's a "band" instrument? Tell me more about your composition!
I am currently working on a multi movement composition for concert band. I greatly appreciate your video on the differences between the Contrabass and Contra-alto Clarinets. I am left with a few questions after watching the video. I thank you again for your resource and in advance for your time to answer my questions. How do you best incorporate both in the composition? Should I stick to writing them in octaves? Should I be using them more like Bass Trombone and Tuba, where they are sometimes in octaves and sometimes in fifths and sometimes completely independent? Also, how many collegiate ensembles have the capability to have both the contrabass and contra-alto clarinets? Is this something that most universities are able to do? Do I need to make sure that the composition can be played with either or?
Most of the time, the two instruments work best in unisons or octaves, but there's no reason to limit it to this. Having these are the bass of the clarinet section does free up the Bass Clarinet to have more interesting lines. Most colleges should have both instruments as there are plenty of pieces that call for one or the other. Getting two independent players is a different story. Often the instruments are played by the same person. But, if there are two well-written and important parts, then it shouldn't be that difficult for a college to field both instruments. It may be more challenging for high schools though.
All Contrabassoon go to at least low Bb0 (save some very early Heckels that go to C1), many Contrabass Clarinets will go to the same low note, but many will stop short and only go to C1 or Db1.
Great video as always. Are the two contras yours, and if so, how did you afford them?? I’ve gotten the chance to play both in the past and I’d love to have one of my own.
After the Basset Clarinet in A, all of the lower clarinets (including the Alto Clarinet) should be keyed to low C. Limiting them to low E-flat is a BIG mistake.
I wonder if Florent Schmitt uses both of them in any of his piece, the guy's notorious for using huge orchestration (i'm thinking of "dionysiaque" where he uses 2 contrabass clarinets (Bb)) but I remember playing his "Marche du 63ème RI" orchestrated by Désiré Dondeyne with again an awfully big orchestration, I wonder if this or any piece by these two could be any additional exemple of both the instruments together ? Especially with these composers being french with Leblanc/Noblet originating from France too ?
To the best of my knowledge, none of the French composers used both. Schmitt wrote at a time when the main Contra seen was the Besson-Fontaine Bb. Buffet may have produced a few Ebs (in metal) at the time of Dionysiaques, but the Selmer was still about a decade out from being produced.
Your comment needs to have a bit more nuance. At a professional level, I agree that each part should have differences between them justifying their inclusion in the composition. However it would be impossible to write an entire composition without some identical sections that two or more instruments play the same music. This furthermore is an important technique in composing for large ensembles with a dedicated name, “doubling.” Doubling is all about coloring the lines that you have composed. It would be a complete waste of time for a composer to actually re-write the same notes, rhythms, and articulations for every doubled line. I hope this response helps explain why your statement is a little bit to rigid to be applied broadly
@@kalebrhea5822 Unfortunately, TH-cam comments aren't the greatest place for nuance. If you want further nuance on the subject, see my book Band Orchestration Volume 2 - Woodwinds, where I go super in-depth on the subject. That said, I was in general referring to pieces where the part is a literal copy and paste of another instrument's part and no thought whatsoever was given to what instrument was being used.
At the beginning you mentioned people enjoying videos with these rarer instruments, please do orchestration for those, but also do orchestration for standard instrumentation as well!! you have been the most helpful for me, someone who is teaching themself orchestration/composition. You explain everything so fluently and simply, it makes it so much easier to understand for me with my (current) gaps in knowledge. I dont know how common my experience is, but I'm very glad you exist. Anyway thats just my opinion, you've been a great resource for me.
What kind of topics would you like?
I have never played the B-flat Contra, but what I like about the paperclip version is the fact that it is keyed to low C. I have always hated the fact that most of the E-flat contra clarinets only can go to a low E-flat. Usually the E-flat Contra has to play either tuba parts or try to transpose either Bass Clarinet or B-Flat Contra parts. That limitation to low E-flat hurts when playing either tuba or B-flat Contra parts.
Bass saxophone + contrabass clarinet is a great combination also.
In our concert, the same player who used the Eb Contra also played Bass Sax, so we had a few pieces with Bass Sax and Bb Contra
that sound like it would be
Grainger’s “Children’s March” is a perfect example of
@ Grainger didn’t use any clarinets lower than the Bass in any of his pieces. Any contra parts that exist are later additions that usually double the Contrabassoon part.
@@BretNewtonComposer I think they were talking about the Bass sax
Well timed... I was literally just going through reeds and checking everything on my Eb contra was working for a gig coming up
I just bought my self a chinese paperclip replica as well and it plays really well!
Very interesting … and timely😎 I’m a bassoon player too , and just received my EE flat great bass clarinet in the mail yesterday and a mouthpiece today!!! Will head to your store for Giraffatitan soon.
I love playing my Contra Alto Clarinet. I've got a Selmer Bundy, like yours, and it's simply lovely to play. I also find it frustrating the lack of repertoire for it.
Often Eb Contra parts are just the Bb Parts with the lower notes up an Octave.
Other times it's the Bass part transposed, which get none of the juicy low notes.
I've put in a few Contrabassoon parts before, though with similar struggles to Bb Contra parts (I once used a cardboard tube to get a written low A which was fun.)
I've considered buying one of those Jinbao Contrabass Clarinets, though even with the relatively low price it's still expensive for me (Being young and living in Australia.)
I really envy people who have found cheap listings online for Contrabass clarinets, and for those in American schools who get to use them for free.
I've a similar experience with Alto Clarinet, which I also love playing (are you sensing a theme here?) so I feel a bit constricted often.
Anyhoo, nice video and I hope it raises awareness of these beautiful members of the Clarinet family.
I think I remember playing altissimo relatively easily on contra (even Bb contra) by adding R3 to the normal bass-clarinet-style altissimo fingerings (except C#) to force the other vent to be used.
used both in my hs; both vito I think
Great discussion! I've thought about this distinction a lot, and I agree with everything you mentioned. The greatbass (contra-alto) is a lot more versatile than most give it credit for. It can reliably play high enough to cover some bass clarinet parts, its lower chalumeau wins out over the corresponding sounding range on the contrabass, and it's far easier for a non-specialist to pick up and learn than the contrabass. But in practice it suffers from being in between the bass and contrabass when you don't have enough players. Low C basses are increasingly more common nowadays (I have one myself!), and contrabasses are rare enough that a range to low C is basically a toss up if you happen to have access to one, as you mentioned in the video. It's just too easy to just write for the bass-contrabass duo than compromise with bass-greatbass. Ideally I'd want all 3 (and might as well throw in the alto while we're at it), the greatbass strengthens and complements both the bass and contrabass even if just playing in unison (or octaves).
I've long considered a low C extension for added utility and to put it on an equal footing with low C basses and contrabasses. Ricardo QueroumClarone has a video showcasing one, and you can really hear a difference between the lowest octave and the corresponding sounding notes on the contrabass.
Plus a Low C EEb Sub-bass(my preferred term for Contra-alto) matches the range of a standard 4-string double/electric bass which opens many more applications for it!
I also have a friend here in the US who has extended a Bundy to low C
I think we've talked before about Great Bass vs. Sub-Bass. To me, sub-bass implies infrasound, that is, sound that is below our hearing range. When we do see instruments with the prefix "sub" they are almost always below the contrabass range.
@@BretNewtonComposer I can appreciate your reasoning(including it being used among recorders)- though my main reason for preferring "sub-bass" is mainly because it's a less confusing term- one can easily misinterpret a "Great Bass Clarinet" as "Great(as with quality) Bb Bass Clarinet" rather than an "EEb Great Bass Clarinet". Also "Sub" to me merely implies "lower than". In the end of the day it's all semantics and we can 100% agree that the EEb is way underutilized!
@ I wonder if it should really be Greatbass or Great-Bass to avoid any confusion. I do make it a point to always capitalize specific instrument names to avoid a situation like this. There’s a difference between a great Bass Clarinet and a Great Bass Clarinet.
Also, you don't need a half hole for the long fingerings in the altissimo. Just take LH1 off completely for C# and D, and then add throat G# to get up to around F# or G. After that you don't use half hole anyway
RH1 or LH1?
@ oops! I meant LH1!
@@JasonAlder I do need to get your altissimo fingering chart
@@BretNewtonComposer I haven't actually made one for the Eb contra yet... for the most part the bass or Bb contra should work, but there are just some tricks like this in the lower altissimo to know about for Eb contra. I've been meaning to make a video about playing altissimo on the contra for a while now...
I seem to remember playing altissimo relatively easily on contra (even Bb contra) by adding R3 to the normal bass-clarinet-style altissimo fingerings (except C#) to force the other vent to be used.
I used both in my piece Kaalachakra for band! It was so much fun. Why don't more orchs use it?
Orchestras have never adopted the Eb, and I honestly couldn't tell you why. Perhaps its a stigma that it's a "band" instrument?
Tell me more about your composition!
I am currently working on a multi movement composition for concert band. I greatly appreciate your video on the differences between the Contrabass and Contra-alto Clarinets. I am left with a few questions after watching the video. I thank you again for your resource and in advance for your time to answer my questions.
How do you best incorporate both in the composition? Should I stick to writing them in octaves? Should I be using them more like Bass Trombone and Tuba, where they are sometimes in octaves and sometimes in fifths and sometimes completely independent?
Also, how many collegiate ensembles have the capability to have both the contrabass and contra-alto clarinets? Is this something that most universities are able to do? Do I need to make sure that the composition can be played with either or?
Most of the time, the two instruments work best in unisons or octaves, but there's no reason to limit it to this. Having these are the bass of the clarinet section does free up the Bass Clarinet to have more interesting lines.
Most colleges should have both instruments as there are plenty of pieces that call for one or the other. Getting two independent players is a different story. Often the instruments are played by the same person. But, if there are two well-written and important parts, then it shouldn't be that difficult for a college to field both instruments. It may be more challenging for high schools though.
Paperclip contrabass clarinet almost sounds like contrabassoon, but which is lower the contrabassoon or contrabass clarinet?
All Contrabassoon go to at least low Bb0 (save some very early Heckels that go to C1), many Contrabass Clarinets will go to the same low note, but many will stop short and only go to C1 or Db1.
Nice hair 😊
It's a little longer than normal right now
Great video as always. Are the two contras yours, and if so, how did you afford them?? I’ve gotten the chance to play both in the past and I’d love to have one of my own.
They are both mine. I saved up for a long time to buy the Bb. Getting the Eb was a different story.
After the Basset Clarinet in A, all of the lower clarinets (including the Alto Clarinet) should be keyed to low C. Limiting them to low E-flat is a BIG mistake.
I wonder if Florent Schmitt uses both of them in any of his piece, the guy's notorious for using huge orchestration (i'm thinking of "dionysiaque" where he uses 2 contrabass clarinets (Bb)) but I remember playing his "Marche du 63ème RI" orchestrated by Désiré Dondeyne with again an awfully big orchestration, I wonder if this or any piece by these two could be any additional exemple of both the instruments together ? Especially with these composers being french with Leblanc/Noblet originating from France too ?
imslp.org/wiki/Dionysiaques%2C_Op.62_(Schmitt%2C_Florent) - a single part that may be optionally doubled
To the best of my knowledge, none of the French composers used both. Schmitt wrote at a time when the main Contra seen was the Besson-Fontaine Bb. Buffet may have produced a few Ebs (in metal) at the time of Dionysiaques, but the Selmer was still about a decade out from being produced.
Yeah that would make sense, thank you for taking the time to answer me !
I will keep this in mind!
No player should be playing a part that is just copy and pasted from another instrument.
Yet I've done that countless times...
Your comment needs to have a bit more nuance. At a professional level, I agree that each part should have differences between them justifying their inclusion in the composition. However it would be impossible to write an entire composition without some identical sections that two or more instruments play the same music. This furthermore is an important technique in composing for large ensembles with a dedicated name, “doubling.” Doubling is all about coloring the lines that you have composed. It would be a complete waste of time for a composer to actually re-write the same notes, rhythms, and articulations for every doubled line. I hope this response helps explain why your statement is a little bit to rigid to be applied broadly
@@kalebrhea5822 Unfortunately, TH-cam comments aren't the greatest place for nuance. If you want further nuance on the subject, see my book Band Orchestration Volume 2 - Woodwinds, where I go super in-depth on the subject. That said, I was in general referring to pieces where the part is a literal copy and paste of another instrument's part and no thought whatsoever was given to what instrument was being used.