Movement Options Define How You Play the Game (Analyzing the New Core-A Video)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.พ. 2021
- streamed Feb. 3, 2021
You should watch the full Core-A vid as well: • The Korean Backdash
Follow Core-A Gaming:
/ coreagaming
/ coreagaming
/ coreagaming
/ coreagaming
Follow Sajam on Twitter & Twitch:
/ sajam
/ sajam
/ discord
Editing/Thumbnail by Magic Moste:
/ magicmoste
#FGC - เกม
dribbling is an archaic and arbitrary execution barrier to engaging in basketball neutral. i hope in basketball 2 they just let us travel.
and dunking is only allowed when you jump from the free throw line.
you wanna dunk? do an airwalk like Michael Jordan.
dribbling actually creates something quite distinct from the game without it, but would tekken lose anything if you could just cancel backdashes into other backdashes without having to tap down? i don't actually know, i don't play tekken, but it seems like it would be almost identical but without a big barrier in the way of getting into the meat of the game
@@plock8572 It's not even a barrier. Nobody's being forced to learn KBD. You can get into the meat of the game without learning it. You only really need it if you want to get good and play at a high level. If you're at that point then you're really not to be turned off by having to learn a movement tech when you're already willing to dedicate way more time to other aspects of the game. I'm a super casual fighting game player and Tekken was my first fighting game so if anyone should be complaining about the KBD being an unnecessary execution barrier it should be me. Hell, I can barely even do it.
Obviously this doesn't mean that Tekken's overcomplicated backdash is somehow superior game design to how backdashing works in other games, it just has been a part of Tekken for so long that it's part of Tekken's identity and mechanical depth. I'm nowhere near good enough at the game to comment on how much it adds to Tekken from a gameplay perspective. But I think it's part of the game's charm and I think it should stay.
@@tingispingis I think that's kind if a silly argument. If you've already learned it, then removing the extra command makes no impact, no?
If you're trying to say the joy of learning it in the first place outweighs the time required to do so and how it can handicap your play as a result, I can't really agree.
Take my favourite fighting game, Blazblue. A core component of that game at isn't often talked about are its microdashes; any air to ground confirm can result in a microdash, many combos require microdashes to work. Hell there's a characters called Hazama and Naoto who are literally built around microdashing.
A microdash is more difficult than a regular dash because usually you have to microdash into a neutral input, which looks like 66x5B, this means you have to input forward twice and then let go of all control before pressing an attack.
There are various ways to do this such as buffering the first forward input and the like, but it's undeniably a core part of Blazblue play at every level. This could be entirely mitigated with a dash macro.
Now I don't believe microdashes should be removed despite them being useful at every level of play and very mechanically has to do, but that's not because I think they add to Blazblue's charm of the game.
Blazblue's difficulty curve is literally built around microdashing. Certain combos are regarded as higher probability of success because they don't involve microdashes, some characters CANT microdash and this changes the kind of mechanics the character requires entirely.
There's a huge argument to be made that Blazblue literally becomes a different video game without microdashing existing in its current form, but by your own admission in Tekken the majority of the game can be played without the Korean Backdash.
Therefore I'd say objectively it'd be better off without the current complicated input; other than subjective 'feel' there's no loss for the actual competitive level of play and it opens that level up to far more players.
This is just a baksetbal , just throw the shit
"Nintendo believes that limitation of the competitive scene is a necessary step in the best interests of Smash Bros."
Because competitive Smash is a complete non-factor. Nintendo could get every single competitive Smash player together in one place, livestream Sakurai executing them one by one for the whole world to see, and it wouldn't have any impact on Smash's popularity, sales or player base.
From Nintendo's point of view, "competitive" Smash is probably a liability since they keep causing trouble for and going against Nintendo's stated goals for what Smash is and is supposed to be. They tolerated it before because it wasn't really a negative or drain from them, but since the events of the last couple years have changed that math it would likely make sense to expect them to become much more combative vs. the competitive scene.
@@ParagonFury wtf
@@ParagonFury i get that your exaggerating for emphasis but seeing as Nintendo has been holding there own "competitive" tournaments since ultimate's came out, this doesn't hold as much weight.
@@Crazybark you mean the tournaments with items on with a gimmicky ruleset on a netcode that’d make dbfz die of embarrassment.
@@pedlar6839 that's why I put competitive in quotes
Gerald has never made a less than 9/10 video. In current terms, he don't miss
even though tekken is my favourite fg, i actually thought this video wasnt as good as his other videos, he kind of explained too much for too long about the basketball analogy. he explained kbd super well though.
@@oshycontin The Core-A video was created to draw the basketball analogy in order to debunk the "bdc is too hard of an entry barrier" and "it's unintended and therefore should not exist in the first place" arguments. It was not supposed to be bdc tutorial, that was just shown to provide some context to people unfamiliar with Tekken's free-form movement cancelling and the plethora of options from it.
@@oshycontin yeah i didn't even watch the video on his channel, because he kept going on for ages
Bilal yes i understand the point of the vid i just dont think it was half as engaging as other core-a videos.
for the newcomers, if kbd is too hard, remember that its about the movement canceling. you can cancel a sidestep by tapping back and cancel a backdash by sidestepping. bootleg kbd is by backdash, sidestep, backdash. you will still create space that way and it is much easier. don't be discouraged because the proper way is too hard, you can still play spacing without it.
Thank you, some sanity. This is great advice for anyone who has trouble doing an advanced technique. There are other things less technical players can be doing to play well without having to practice heavy execution. Save the harder techniques for later when you've hit a wall that literally can't be passed without doing them.
But if you play a sway character good luck lol. Its way harder.
@@LoudButtons Many NA players who have taken matches from top Asian players at times don't have the cleanest KBDs. Some still employ the 'ghetto' method of b -> qcb. Thing is as long as they understand getting that spacing to catch a whiff punishment, they know what they are doing. Joey Fury has an odd movement technique where he goes b -> f as a stutter step so he can control space between his opponent at times and probably for keep away. KBD isn't even the real culprit in high level play more than the more nuanced movement techniques like SS (sidestep)/SW whiff punish or block (the korean/pakistani specials) and the infamous dash block. It is infamous because it is hard to get it down on netplay BUT it is one of the best answers to close the space between your opponent while being able to play defense.
@@rpgtimefire this type of backdash works with swey characters. Don't try to be fancy sliding your hand/finger around. It is literally a rhythm of tapping back twice, taping down, then tapping back twice again. I used to do this with Bryan as I learned that qcb method
In my playgroup the movement you are describing here is called staircase-stepping.
this is an incredible thumbnail
Images you can hear
Anyone got a link for it?
This reminds me of when I heard about how people were mapping their scroll wheel to crouch in OverWatch in order to avoid headshots while still being able to mostly move at full speed
It was combined with ADAD spam to move their hitboxes up and down, left and right. Tracers were infamous for this, it made them even more impossible hit when combined when their already small hitbox.
They changed American football rules a while back on how field goals worked my friends and I just joked for weeks about how "the football patch notes dropped and field goals were nerfed :("
Another good example of this is skiing in Tribes 2. When the game was originally being developed, skiing was a bug in the what was originally intended to be just a normal FPS movement system. Then the developers found out that skiing was so fun to do, it was the only way they wanted to move around, so they kept it in the game all the way to the original release. And when the community got hold of it, it basically created a genre all its own. God I miss Tribes.
may tribes rest in peace in video game heaven
Its a very good design choice as well considering the boom of the FPS games would come and games would need ways/gimmicks to distinguish themselves. Granted Tribes 2 had a short run but that fun skiing mechanic endeared themselves to classic shazbot heads.
I recommend the Movement Shooters videos by FUNKe, they’re pretty cool video essays on movement in shooters as well as movement shooters nowadays. Also play Titanfall 2.
'Korean Abdul-Jabar'
I'm fucking crying
Touhou fighting games are fairly unique with their movement. They tend to be very projectile heavy games, but dashing allows you to pass through them or "graze" projectiles. The most recent one, Antinomy of Common Flower, you fight in the air and it opens the door to essentially jump either above or below the opponent, and it can create some interesting situations.
Bro I used to play the SHIT out of Perfect Cherry Blossom but never knew about any of the fighters. This is a whole ass revelation for me
Weaving with upside down jumps in Antinomy is so much fun
@@dotChrollo koishi is considered on of the best in 15.5 AoCF. Reimu is the most used character competitively.
This a big in your face to those people who literally think (from a scrubquote if I remember correctly) "tournaments are a gathering of beta testers that abuse games exploits on each other".
So smart to pick the analogy with sport. I always tell people that they do the same in soccer : they abuse offside line rules to the point of becoming a legit high level defensive maneuver in modern soccer. But god forbid you KBD or you learn frame data. Its not the same as a soccer player using nutrition and training to obtain an optimal body for the sport hhahahahhaha
Did Sajam ever do a reaction to Leon Massey's Jump Arc video?
if he hasn't he should
Sol in +R flying across with his j. HS
No greater spectacle than a fox that's schmoovin
Magneto’s arc in schmoovin squared is even parabolic. Moste is the god
I truly hope they never get rid of KBD. It's really does add a lot to Tekken. However maybe a tutorial should be included or some kind of mention of its existence. I mean maybe they should just add a tutorial in general but hey I'm not a game developer, just an enthusiast.
Another non-developer here, just agreeing that they could have a text box like Bayonetta with Dodge Offset (otherwise players would have another name for the mechanic I imagine) or go wild by having a tutorial.
No guarantee that everyone uses the tutorials or reads everything but it is good for people to be able to reference a game in the languages supported rather than a video or text guide that may or may not exist. Even when good guides exist, you don't know how much you'll need to dig to find a specific mechanic which may have another name in your scene.
or maybe they should remove the restriction altogether and let backdash be cancelled into itself directly. If restriction simply doesn't work, why bother having it in the game?
@@KoylTrane The only reasons I could imagine besides "identity" are that it may have some positive implications by forcing the player to press/release down or back.
I'm sure that it must lock out some attacks out of the 5 billion but I'm not sure that they are considering that since it isn't an upfront mechanic in the same way as Focus Attack or Parry which both have implications on commands vs charge approaches.
If it is a question of wanting to limit how often it can be done by the length of a crouch, they can add a specific cooldown for backdash to backdash (not that I don't expect someone or some character to get around it for a few patches).
That being said, I don't think it is a super high bar just that they should focus on teaching people to work around limitations if they want to get to a higher level of movement. Perhaps they could have left it in to make sure that lower level players are less evasive in friendlies for all I know.
Even better, add Korean Foward Dashes if those don't already exist and slap some moves on those inputs
@@darkthunder301 mahvel is back
This is why I love melee. I've never played a game where I can move so freely and expressively. There's always more to learn, I can always keep getting faster if I'm prepared to invest
And why Ultimate is so disappointing
@@austingoyne3039 true, I find it very lacking competitivly. Fun with casuals tho, can't really play melee with newbs
@@myboy_ I’ve used volleyball to trick friends into playing
This is why I love Project M. Adding melees movement with some brawl tech like dacus, and rar is so satisfying
@@SoldierLuka I'll continue to love Ultimate but the mods of Brawl with Joker, Squall and the like have my interest.
We don't need to trade characters or mechanics fortunately since the modding scene is so strong. Even Melee seems likely to get many modes and stages (plus characters but those won't end up in tournaments for a good while at least).
When you started talking about how you love moving in Marvel, it reminded me how I loved watching Melee when I first saw it was because it's sick, and I wanted to pick it up to do those things. That's when I learned moving in that game feels so perfect, and I would turn on my Wii all the time just to move around and practice tech skill.
I love games where snappy, fast dashes are encouraged. I love playing either Ken or Makoto in 3s and feeling like they're on ice skates. Or dashing in and out to shimmy and forcing mistakes while not standing still for more than a second. I love that shit lol
Makoto is so fucking annoying to play against lol
try melee or project m/+ one day
I hate how some people think KBD is basic movement. It's one of the more advanced techniques that takes time to practice. You have several other ways to move around like cancelling a backdash with a sidestep.
The advance part of it is more of the concept being utilized properly by new and intermediate players. Otherwise anyone of those jabronis can learn the KBD motion and even pull it off in a real match. Thing is without a sense of purpose they will just backdash themselves to the wall or miss a whiff punish because they didn't get the right spacing off the KBD. Same concept goes for the more intermediate movement options like Side step/Sidewalk block or whiff punish. Not everyone knows which directions to SS/SW characters or how they are using moves so that is a MU/heavy knowledge dependent deal. Dash block is also a nuanced movement tool that is effective as it closes in on space between your opponent while you play defense. The problem is there is a certain range where you can dash forward too deep and you eat a possible launcher. So there is a specific timing/space for that to make it effective and get the block on time.
I like your comments about this Sajam 6:07 this is exactly my thought before any bias I may have. I do feel like there's a lot more to consider about KBD too. Personally, I feel like KBD and the wide adoption of it by the players shows that the move is either too good to pass up or that people enjoy an unlimited backdash more instead of the limited one, and most definitely it's both. I do not feel like the motion of KBD itself is what all players enjoy or want, in fact I'd argue that although a lot of especially seasoned players do, a lot of players also don't and find it unintuitive, especially before they've submitted their muscle memory to it. KBD is essentially just a better backdash that you have to learn to compete, and that goes whether you like the technical motion behind it or not. It would be akin to, if say the limited backdash is like no dribbling in basketball, then KBD is like dribbling behind your back because that is the only way to "bypass the rule" so to speak. Then I'd argue that dribbling normally is like just an unlimited backdash with the regular motion (back back), not because it's simpler, but because it's more intuitive to do, it makes sense both initially and the longer you play. Now, that's not to downplay the good aspects that a more technical motion brings with it, such as keeping you on your toes and making you have to focus and weigh things on the fly while you play which can bring about a lot of good challenge. But, I don't feel like that fits to a basic movement option such as backdash, which I feel that KBD becomes, the defacto way to backdash and move in the game whether you like it or not.
Good explanation. I honestly feel like Soul Calibur does Tekken movement better.
Finally! First time I come across someone who expresses why change is good without blaming the game.
The developer interaction may be particularly interesting in brawlhalla where chase dodges opened up the game and made the game more popular and advanced.
Gerald is the god of analogies
No no, Gerald is *like* the god of analogies.
@@AlexRFightgames That's a simile bro
Movement is my favorite thing in every game. When the game I’m playing gives me the freedom to express myself to others by showing my familiarity with the movement system, that’s when I’m having the most amount of fun possible in a game. Vent hopping into mid Mirage, literally every part of melee’s movement, T8 Reina’s sparks on her wavedash, to quote RESPRiT: “when you have the brainworms they need to kickflip”
one thing that everyone glosses over in the basketball example: "they had to make additional rules"
In some Tekken games, they have experimented with the properties of a backdash. In TTT2 movement was so strong for evading attacks. In order to continue pressuring someone you hit, you had to forward dash, otherwise their backdash would evade any immediate followups. In TTT2, though, characters do not autoguard during the backdash. This meant that forward dash moves (which were normally used for whiff punishment or general pressure), would hit people completely out of back dash in addition to forward dashing into a low. People could still KBD, but one of the reasons in TTT2 to backdash cancel was to actually guard.
5:55 combos in fighting games weren't initially intended to be a thing
I love your thumbnails it’s not obnoxious and I like your videos so I subscribe
5:48 love wearing my New Movement Tech Sneaks
There's a single-player Metroidvania called Valdis Story, that has a unique movement mechanic (ironically) called 'Skill Cancelling'. It makes the entire game and turns the combat system from normal metroidvania style action gameplay into a mini-fighting game style of gameplay. Very fun and satisfying.
Damn it dude you made this game sound like it’s the sickest thing. But I checked it out and it’s just lame. Thanks for nothing
@@atsurokihara5525 Valdis Story is hype as fuck, idk what you're on about. It's one of the better Metroidvania's out there and the combat is far closer to a "fighting game" than the vast majority of other Metroidvania's. Figuring out how to S rank boss fights as well as figuring out how to master and optimize combos for each mob by incorporating spells and weapon attacks is really enjoyable. If you don't like the game that's a you problem.
That's what got me mad into SF. I've played mostly smash and king of fighters, but the first time I tried street fighter, I was hooked. It felt like there was such a deliberate, conscious element to moving in that game compared to the others I've been playing, I just loved it.
I always appreciate how new games in a series will take emergent mechanics from previous titles and canonise them, often streamlining them & making them more accessible. (For example, SF6 drive rush is a clear evolution from FADC, making it easier to do but also applying balance levers to it such as drive gauge cost.) I wonder how a future Tekken sequel (or even a Tekken-inspired game by someone else) could make KBD a bit less harsh on the hands, and more comfortable and easy so that using it still requires skill and intention, but maybe not hundreds of hours of practice.
@Sajam huge fan of your channel and one thing not a lot of people at least that I’ve personally tried to get into fighting games realize is not only are a lot of things in fighting games today unintended but, the main thing people want to pull off which are the big flashy combos.
Well, fact of the matter is for those who don’t realize it already, combos were never an intended part of fighting games as one example of something that was never intended, they were actually a glitch in Street Fighter 2 that capcom left in the game as well as other versions of street fighter that came afterwards and essentially birthed the combos we know and love to perform in our favorite fighting games today.
I feel like there are actually two ideas here being smashed together, and this muddles things.
1. Should "advanced movement" options such as KBD, IAD, wave dash, etc exist? Does their existence make the game better or worse?
2. Should "advanced movement" be gated behind a training mode grind wall?
Even if we assume that advanced movement is a good thing, this is completely unrelated to the question of how easy or difficult it should be to perform. Should it be easy? Hard? How hard? As hard as possible or is there a "sweet spot"?
Would the marvel series be improved if IAD and wave dashing was as hard to perform as KBD? Would Tekken be improved if KBD was as easy to perform as super-dash?
This discussion actually reminds me of what I like to call the "plink-paradox". SF4 players typically say that the relatively difficult link-based combo system of that game is good because hard combos make for impressive feats of dexterity... but every player of that game makes full use of plinking. Plinking makes link combos easier, therefore by the "SF4 logic" it should have a negative impact on the game... yet I've never seen an SF4 player clamor for the removal of plinking.
I personally think too many players don't think about this issue very deeply, and just default to the opinion of "movement should be as difficult as I can handle it, but not more difficult than that".
This is something I've been thinking about a lot looking at these comments. I've always been terrible at tapdashing, whether I'm on stick or pad. It's just not something I can reliably do with my left hand. So I've been very thankful for the existence of dash macros over in the 2D fighter space.
Does it break Gear now that I (having played Gear for two decades now) can finally do reliable IADs? Or that I can play I-No comfortably? I really don't think so. And this is just a change that affects a basic movement function.
But there's a pretty vocal part of the comments here that acts like games only exist for the high-level players who have already mastered the movement tech. Like if you can't or don't want to master the KBD, you might as well not be playing Tekken or something. It's a weird attitude to take.
I think there's this thing amongst people who only play one game where they become extremely proud of the difficult part of their game, but they don't care to hear the opinions of people playing other games that don't have the same difficulty (e.g Melty Blood combos are nothing like SF4 links at a basic level and no Melty player ever complains that it's too easy to press buttons).
Babe wake up, new Sajam video
I wish I got a buff to walk speed so I can walk away from my problems
Any game that has a a wavedash is sick
This is true
I love that there's historical precedent of this. A bit off topic but,
I'm still rather salty about a LoL developer post (that's now gone since it was on their old forums/outdated website afaik) that once mentioned the "accidental" design of certain things in DotA was bad and was one of the things they sought to fix in LoL. Paraphrased statement of course. The post was talking about things like disjointing (an unintended mechanic where you could avoid taking damage from homing projectiles in WC3 by blinking or LoL's equivalent of Flash.) being bad BECAUSE it was unintended. Whether it was a difference in design philosophy or because they wanted to put out as much bad PR of their biggest competitor, I'm salty because I'm like 95% sure it was the latter.
(Riot Games has had many similar public statements, posts, advertisments, and actions that were trying their hardest to not just compete with DotA 2, but straight up put down it's competition in the past. It's less prevalent if not entirely gone these days, but if you dig deep enough you can find remnants still.)
Sajam, I remember a while back you talked about control binding and unexpected options, less to pertain with movement but more how it can have unintended effects on character balance/mechanics. You talked about the hitbox, or maybe some other variant, where it allowed for diametrically opposed cardinal directional inputs, so you could, before a patch in SFV, walk around holding charge motions with Guile I think. Would you maybe revisit this? I think there's a lot of depth to that topic, particularly when you look at it from the lens of player/developer dialogue.
Interesting topic to revisit but I think the game with that input reading issue was SSF2HD, not SFV which was released long long after Hitbox or alternatives were part of the scene.
I think the answer is fairly simple on the developer and player dialogue front. It can and will get patched in modern games, older games if they have a scene will make rules to reduce use or in extreme cases mod the game to follow what players want.
There are plenty of cases where developers are cool with what's going on which is most clear with the Celeste Speedrun community but also cases like Hollow Knight where they will adjust and remove things without warning almost seeming antagonistic.
Fighting games tend to have passable communication since they need to keep us in the know before future DLC characters come around but that doesn't mean they feel the same way about the game.
KOF also has very fast movement since u have dashing running short hop medium jump and long/hyper and rolling u can cover the space between u and your opponent within a second. Knowing how to use them to your advantage is the key.
Just realised that this video is labelled as Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. rotfl
Oh the irony.
Incredibly fitting lmfao
Lol the most sorely missing aspect of Ultimate
Ult was my first “fighting game” I got into, the. I got into other fighting games, and I’ve tried rivals of aether now...I never understood why people dissed on ult’s movement and all that, but I understand now. It feels so clunky and like I’m fighting the game so often, and platforms are a goddamn nightmare for some reason 😅
@@aRLosandy I feel like that's on purpose though. When you're in advantage platforms can act as a combo extender and when you are in disadvantage it can act as an obstacle to avoid, although sometimes you might take the option since your opponent won't expect it. It also helps heaps when you are zoning or running away. Basically it's not always the best option, and I think that's fair. Overall using platforms defensively has it's downsides and I think that's fine as a design choice too.
Kinda like how Ayrton Senna (RIP) was able to innovate a form of ABS/Traction Control to gain more speed exiting corners without braking by rapidly tapping his throttle pedal alone before the concept became a thing with Computer Controlled Car Systems.
It took advantage of the fact that the mechanical F1 engine couldn't give an immediate feedback to the rapid-like pedal movement unlike Computer Controlled systems of today.
That first line at the start was a great way to start it
I really like it when the devs keep those weird tech people come up with( if it doesnt break the game of course)
I love how the first thing I thought of wasn't a fighting game but Call of Duty
My favorite CoD game is Black Ops 3 because I loved the movement of the game so much and the little tech you can use to make you move more proficiently and smoothly.
I didn't like Advanced Warfare or Infinite Warfare tho, there was something about BO3 specifically that I really enjoyed the most.
I understand why people didn't like it due to being really different from the series roots but I absolutely loved it.
Play Titanfall 2, it's the OG movement shooter, and still has the best movement to date
@@Josukegaming I would say quake is obviously the OG and the best mobility based fps, but i dont think anybody plays it anymore. Rip best game.
@@Josukegaming really? 😂
As someone who learned fighting games playing a character with 2 airdashers in a game where most chars have 1 airdash, trust me, I appreciate mobility. Nowadays I feel some games try to make mobility built in to attacks, kinda like the superdash in DBFZ, since beginners often prefer to use special moves to move, rather than normal movement options. I think such moves are fine existing but they should carry some risk, like for example Sol can grand viper really fast across the screen and if he hits you he gets a good combo but if he can't RC it and it gets block he dies. It should be like that.
4 way RC drift finna be lit
A point this video brings up that I don't see many people talking about the disconnect between the casuals and the elite and how that effects decisions. When one end of the spectrum wants something removed but the other end wants that same thing to stay, who do you listen to and who do you ignore? Can a compromise be made? And most importantly, is the whole thing really that big a deal?
@Anton Marshall Because that's roughly 80% of your sales.
What i love about the KBD, wave dash, or instant running moves is that you don't need them to play at a casual level but mastering these skills is the difference between casuals, better skilled players, local competitive players and pro level play.
These skills aren't hard to learn and I really reccomend you guys try to learn em.
As someone who just picked started learning melee mastering tech skill is incredibly satisfying
@@eliastew9636 it's fun! Having extra tools in your kit gives you that extra advantage. Plus, not being able to KBD isn't the reason why ppl can't get out of green or yellow ranks in tekken. They're typically stuck in those ranks because of a lack of fundamentals or match up knowledge.
What's funny about KBD is I never really appreciated it after I learned it. I do it regularly. It never felt satisfying to me. I realize it's a useful tool that wins me matches as I back out of range and whiff punish someone, but there's something missing to me.
Now learning to do iwr and wavedashes? That felt ultra satisfying. Maybe because my brain is full unga at this point. Hitting 3 iwr in a row while my opponent just sits there and holds those frames, it feels fantastic.
@@goiflin5056 I keep seeing ppl subtly bash KBD but they also fail to admit KBD can get you on trouble if you do it in the wrong situation
@@mikeg4490 yeah, that's a huge part of it too. Knowing when to activate the schmooves makes the difference between someone moving with purpose and someone just parroting what other people do.
Tf2 is a great thing to look at if you want to see the extremes of what movement can give you
[Shazbot's sadly in the distance]
God Bless Geralt, as well as Sajam(also, hopefully Heihachi and Sol appear in smash someday, as well as Scorpion, altough that last one will only happend after 15 years lol)
so is there ever a reason to move using a "standard" backdash in Tekken? I feel like what makes dribbling interesting in basketball is that it adds a new option to reposition the ball, without invalidating your other options. Sometimes you want to dribble up to a certain position, but there are still plenty of cases where passing the ball to a teammate in the same position is more advantageous.
The Core-A video describes why Korean Backdashing is advantageous, but doesn't really describe any reasons why you might intentionally choose to not use that technique. If Korean Backdashing is just objectively better than using "standard" backdashes, then it sounds like that technique doesn't actually add to the depth of the game in the same way that dribbling does.
That's a good point
Well you are misunderstanding
Kbd being mandatory at higher levels adds depth the same way wave dashing adds depth in melee
And kbd is just a repeated back daah so sometimes when you only want to back dash once you dont do the kbd
I'm not sure how popular it is, as I haven't played it in a while, but one shooter that always had the sickest movement was Krunker.io. It's this little free online shooter, and the way momentum works in it is so damn fun. You basically just dash, then slide, then cancel the slide with a jump, then slide when you land and repeat. It's so smooth and really really cool at high levels, and it's probably the best thing about the game.
this video reminded me about how skiing in tribes games got fucked up in every iteration since tribes 1. in the first game skiing was basically just bunnyhopping down a hill to gain speed and using your jetpack to fly as you go up the next hill. in every other tribes game since then, they changed it to where instead of bunnyhopping you just slide down a hill like a ball, and it always felt like shit in comparison to tribes 1
Ah the Korean Backdash
Shammy would not literally say it but Core-A sure did!
XD
does that make KOF = (schmoovin'^2)^4?
Watching high level titanfall pvp is a perfect example of the importance of movement
Watching people really good at Doom Eternal it's so satisfying
The games I’ve played strangely have their movement options tied to what kind of meta they have
3rd Stirke: Limited Movement options besides Dash, but the game is focused on fundamentals and knowing your opponent so it doesn’t really need it
Marvel 2: Dash, Air Dash, Wavedash, Triangle Jump, Super Jump, Probably way more, I suck at Marvel, the meta has its players flying all over the place as they try to get in and do the most insane combos imaginable
Melee: Wavedash, Waveland, Ledgedash, Shield Drop, Dash Dance, Moonwalk, Stickywalk, Boostwalk, a game defined by its movement and incomprehensible gameplay that looks amazing to watch even if you don’t know what’s happening
Ultimate: It ain’t for me that’s all I’ll say
UNICLR: Dash, Air Dash, the other weird air bounce thing that I don’t know what to call, makes sense this game doesn’t have so many movement options because it’s all about neutral, but it’s still recognizes that it’s players want alternate ways of moving around.
KOF: There’s like a million of em and I suck at KOF.
Movement is something I love in any game. I play Fighting Games & FPS Games. I hate BR's but I love Apex Legends because the movement in that game is so fun. They nerfed it a bit but it's still doable. And some of the movement options you can do while shooting and thinking about that sounds rrally badass but it's hard to execute.
Did you ever hear of a game called urban terror? It's like counter strike with wall jumping and power sliding.
try titanfall 2. movement is so good there once you master it
Csgo player find tiny gap in skybox for smoke set ups and so Valve just straight up opens the skybox.
Valorant players find some weird map geometry that makes their utility cover more space and so Riot fixes the map geometry and shoots the affected character in the knee just to be safe.
Examples that are defined by their movement: Mirror's edge, Celeste, Devil may cry 3-5, Lethal League Blaze
3:15 change can be scary
But some people go WEAPONIZED SHARTING like pros!
XD
Apex Legends is like this too. From a distance you can gauge the skill level of another player just based on the way they move.
Just imagining playing smash with a box controller sounds like a nightmare ngl
Sajam's secret tex-niques
One of the most popular game genres is literally named after its movement options: Jump and Run.
"Jump and Run"
Do you mean platformers?
@@dush.1746 No. I mean Jump'n'Run, because that's what the genre of Super Mario Bros. is properly called. Now get off my lawn, kid.
I have never ever heard anyone call mario anything but a platformer
korean abdul jabar new handle
So... Plink dashing in UMvC3 is technically "dribling" ? hmmm , interesting
I really dislike the argument "it's unnecessarily difficult". When you start taking the physical side out of games and reduce the number of complex situations as well as the depth of those situations you end up actually being able to hit mastery quickly. I don't think the gameplay there is that compelling sure you make reads but losing the endless journey to mastery all to appeal to people who necessarily will put the game down faster, why else would they complain it takes too much time to learn, is disheartening to me.
And the reads become one dimensional. Do they take the optimal path or mix it up. It's a series of quickly recognizable coin tosses.
Jeez why are you bashing sfv so much
@@stolensentience lmao I reinstalled fightcade rather then booting up SFV today "progress"
@@playing_jazz haha yeah after getting like zero competition in sf4 these days I too resorted to fightcade. Been having a blast from the past with sf2, sf3, sfa, vsavior, and garou
@@stolensentience I really like the vsav community on there it's always been a joy.
I mean, there are limits to the argument of more is better. Melee is just... Too much inputs for what should be the standard. L cancel, turn around cancel, wavedash, platform cancelling...
ngl i still can't do korean backdash consistently after practice it for hours
the only reason i still play Apex Legends is the movement. it's so fucking good to the point that i dislike using other forms of travel because the parkour-like running, sliding, walljumping and airstrafing are so much fun lol
i know that feeling. Doom '16 and Splatoon have spoiled me on other shooters because i don't like how slow my character is in others haha
Oh, so that's why banning cheap movement cheating strats like L-Cancel and wave dash in Smash Bros Brawl made it the most exciting and beloved competitive Smash game to date
Also guys, i have a question, does somebody know why the arcade joysticks have no triggers or top button? I mean, are those illegal or something? Would it be illegal if i took off two of the 8 buttons from the right and put them on the arcade stick?
As long as they aren't duplicate buttons I don't think anybody cares. If you wanted to use L3 and R3 as extra buttons on the front of your stick I imagine you could!
@@landoncore92 thanks for the comment!
Time to say how Soku movement works! You have the normal stuff like dashing, hijumping, and air dashing, but you get 2 air movements, which you can spend either by flying or airdashing flying is slower than airdashing and costs resources, but you can fly in 8 directios (but you are somewhat locked into that direction once you start) and decide how long to fly for. (Some characters have slightly different movement but this is what it is for the most part).
Link please?
Luis-Raul Diaz-Rios sorry for the late reply, here’s a couple links to the main discords, they have the download too. discord.gg/5Uw4N7T discord.gg/MbNzxpy
Melee that's the best and worst example. Make your hands into pretzels and man do I love it
Reminds me of alot of other games mainly Destiny 2 (fps looter shooter) the game over it's life span has had some insane movement tech and alot of fun exploiation of the physics engine however the devs decided no we don't want this. Which to me is very very sad because the average player isn't going to learn of this normally and the hardcore fans are just going to find another way so why not let them do it.
Have you ever played warframe ?
@@SeanTAochi1 nope I don't need another thing to steal what little is left of my waking moments
Glad to know a lot of people in the FGC still want advanced movement tech in games. FPS games have lost a lot of their advanced tech over the years.
KOF has insane movement options, that and the combos being better then SF make it super fun.
KOF also changes the perception of the grappler archetype due to movement. 98 Daimon is always my healthy go to example because he has the jumps/hops but also the strong normal buttons to play keep away while keeping the threat of the cmd grab intact. Of course it also turns chars with versatile toolkits like Iori Yagami into constant high tier mainstays and never really being bad as a character. Besides with full stocked resources scum gale cmd grab is SUPER nasty to go into fat hard hitting combos.
I have yet to see a KOF player bigging up their game without putting Street Fighter down in the process.
@@Breeze06
These are my reasons for doing so.
There similar games, both hail back to Takashi Nishiyama - same original creator, everyone knows of SF so it's a valid comparison imho.
Which intelectual property you prefer is subjective ofcourse (but everyone knows Terry Bogard whoops Ken Masters all day every day).
The added mobility, added stragegy of 3 on 3 and longer combos do add more to the experience imho making a more enjoable game + KOF games are actually fun 1 player and have single player content (the KOF combo challenges alone as some of the best content in any fighting game I've ever experienced).
Old vid, but movement is huge, think BB has airdashes, but even then Hazama's movement is absurd, in Touhou 10.5/12.3 movement is the entire game. DOA has FSDC, Tekken has KBD. Every game has specific movement options that completely define how the game plays. Would you say Yu has good movement options in the context of P4AU? Sure, but then you see a yosuke who flies all over the place and you have to COMPLETELY change how you approach that MU.
I still think it’s gate keeping to only leg Koreans crouch cancel their back dash. The dribbling comparison is invalid because everyone can dribble.
That's a great point.
Its clear u don’t know what you are talking about
Smh
And dribbling is harder
Yet you don’t see people complaining that dribbling is gatekeeping
Rashid is this his movement is ridiculous in sfv
If you engage with Tekken casually, you won’t know that anything exists because the game won’t tell you half the things you need to play it at a higher level.
I can't Korean Backdash in Tekken... so I play Lei and just spin in circles.
I think the hitbox argument is a little different. I think it would be great if everybody could have a hitbox and would love to see how that would change games, but the 200$ price point is extremely limiting for the vast majority of players
Weak argument. Any stick can be transformed into an all-button controller for very little investment. Sell your JLF and use the money to buy four buttons. Maybe get an SOCD cleaner. It's not prohibitive at all, especially when a standard pad is already $50 and a decent stick is double that at least.
If you are against reducing movement exploits, because it would make the game slower or boring or something like that. Should that same argument be valid to keep making complex mechanics, as combos, easier?
Ppl complain about KBD but what people are missing there is "messy" version of backdashing i don't see anyone bring up.
Instead of doing KBD ⬅️ ⬅️↙️⬅️ ⬅️
Ppl also do ⬅️⬅️⬇️ or ⬅️⬅️⬆️ as an easier alternative. Probably not as affective but it creates space.
You dont have to learn KBD just as you dont have lab and learn 50 character match ups. Whats hurting tekke. 7 the most is not KBD because it's really not hard to learn, it's how weak side movement is. Tekken 7 feels very linear compared to some of the older games.
You have too many backs in your assumption of the correct input. It's b b,db,b, repeat b,db,b.
The video mentions that players initially found they could cancel by crouching with down but switched to db because it's a more optimal input. Especially on stick since you can release db into a back input on the way to neutral.
@@kinginthenorth1437 no I don't the extra B is the one that cancels it then repeat the other main input
Korean Abdul Jabar too OP plz nerf for the good of the game.
Shaquille O'Neal=probably the greatest pre patch bball player
Im about to start calling dribbling, pass canceling, in front of sports nerds just to piss then off.
pffft get on the modern level fella. The shammgod has been fooling ballers for years now. Along with the Lebron Crab dribble and the James Harden double double backdash into step back jumper.
Movement in fighting games feels really weird and stuff.
I remember how fun it was to master kara FA with Ken to surprise kara dash fwd into a surprise kara grab or to use his thunder kick feint to perfection. I was actually upset when he got that giant walk speed buff because it limited the usefulness of mastering his kara movement, making it less impressive when players could leverage ken’s strengths (Ken was never very good in early sf4 versions but high level kens were popping up everywhere in ultra)
And it goes without saying that sfv Ken has zero intrigue for me.
Korean Abdul Jabar
they wanted to ban dribbling because it was hurting the integrity of the game
(the vote was 51-49)
to each their own I guess, I personally don't want to touch Tekken because I find Korean backdashing repugnant on many levels, however, the insane amount of sustained, rapid, movement you have to maintain to be almost decent at MVC2 is why I keep falling back into it despite loathing all cape shit. mvc2's bullshit is wackier than Tekken's dash canceling but it somehow looks less goofy and dumb to me.
I don't think I got the point of CAG's video. I don't see the value of keeping the input for the k-backdash. Is it possible to succeed at high-level play without it?
My favorite is Special Reverse Twitching in SSBU. Very difficult and almost completely useless.
Do you mean B-Reversals? They have been useful to varying degrees in each game that has them and depend on the special move in use.
@@thelastgogeta B-Reversing is character dependant. Like, as a Byleth player B-Reversing isn't too critical to my gameplan.
Where as, I can't imagine a top level snake without B-Reversing a bucket load of times per game.
What the hell is special reverse twitching? B-reversing? Wavebouncing?
@@themasterblaze7563 Yeah, that's what I meant. It has different values for each special and some characters depend on it a ton more than others.
It can't be reduced down to being "almost completely useless" minus very specific characters where it doesn't make a notable difference whether you turnaround, B-Reverse or wavebounce.
@@iliketrain10
In SSBU you can reverse the input of a special move to change your momentum. Wave bouncing is doing that while running forward to bounce backward quickly.
The special twitch is cancelling the initial dash animation into a chargeable special, and then canceling the special with a buffered negative edge shield input, and then dashing again instantly. Only a couple characters can do it since it requires a chargeable special that can be cancelled with shield and can be cancelled into out of initial dash.
Movement options are great but It's the input required and the resistance to making that input more accessible to other players from the FGC that really worries me.
The mentality that "if you want to play a game in ranked you are basically forced to buy a fightstick and have years of hand gymnastics" is kind of dumb.
Some games don't require those heavy inputs. MK, Smash, DBZF, but a lot of them are kind of ridiculous if you're going for optimal combos(Looking at you KoF).
I love Tekken, but KBD is now so ingrained into the system that it's required and I don't see that changing or them changing how easy or hard it is to perform these actions, same with electrics. Which hey, I can KBD and I can Electric, but at that point I feel like I'm putting more effort into the game than I'd like to and matches just wear on my hands too much.
It's cool to recognize skill, it's just annoying that so much of the potential of fighting games is locked behind not getting smarter or better at the game itself by learning more about the game, but just the hand gymnastics you need to perform.
Which is why stuff like DBZF, GG, or GBFVS is imo, the future of fighting games. You still have all this stuff, but you don't have the outdated mentality of "ignoring the game, focus on the gymnastics"
"Which is why stuff like DBZF, GG, or GBFVS is imo, the future of fighting games. "
LMAO wow you weren't around when DBFZ got the label as DBF EZ because the game seemed basic as fuck, all the bnbs do similar amount in damage and you just super dash your pressure inside. That impression got people out of the game within 6-8 months without trying to evaluate how deeper the bag went for competitive play. GO1's defense is part fundamentals and part uncanny instincts of his to block for days to pick his spot. Kazunoko exploited one of the best basic strats the game would offer spacing wise which was super dash -> yamcha assist or in some cases A Gohan DP assist for putting pressure against airborne characters. Many players showed the gymnastic aspects and understanding of the game later on just to have a strategy to play into combos that can kill in a few touches so you can actually play the game.
Granblue also got the 'simple' EZ label but the roll and the spot dodge at high levels is simply the juice. The JP exhibitions of granblue based on teams playing from games were a good show of this and the Samsho/KOF players had an amazing understanding of how to use roll. As it bears a similar way its used in KOF games.
I don't like KBD, so I don't play Tekken. Easy enough for me.
2:08 Even if that statement is old. For me it just sounds someone redefined the word basic for himself there. Isnt the basic movement just dashing, walking and everything else the game gives you to ---- move. Combining with the fact that nobody is forced to do KBD(atleast in lower skill levels). This is just a segue to scrub quotes although it does have some arguments in it, considering relatively difficult inputs for this essential technique doesnt make it a good option to have in the game. Which in turn just goes back on the simplifying fighting games discussion.
Yea he means advanced movement
I think what he was talking about was backdashing in general, which I would argue is a basic movement option that's core to the game. What KBD is essentially is a better backdash, essentially forgoing the backdash spam block that's there by default. KBD isn't forced, but it is however something you have to do to compete at any level beside the lowest one. The core argument is not about simplifying, it's about what's intuitive, I feel. KBD is fun for some and intuitive for those once they've grinded it out and gotten the muscle memory for it, but for others it's just a necassary hurdle to be able to compete and the more intuitive option (back back) is bogged down by being spam blocked.
@@Yous0147 True.
I feel things like KBD tread on a thin line of being a technique balanced out between execution and reward/use. Though I cant say much because i dont play tekken.
Arguing if the necessity of the movement overrides the difficulty, if it would be better simplified, removed, changed or if its just unnecessary considering different skill levels and their respective opinion goes over my head in the end. Im pretty new in fighting games.
@@atmnwntr KBD is less the move itself IMO than a player passing a knowledge check. If a newb/intermediate player has trained the KBD motion and being able to do it in a match, it doesn't mean they will utilize it efficiently. Because they don't understand the concept of whiff punishing and overall spacing concepts yet. Same folks who focus hard on moves with good frame data but ignore utilizing moves with pushback efficiently to create spacing strategies. The same could be said for the more difficult and nuanced Tekken movement techniques like sidestep/sidewalk block or whiff punish. Because knowing how to SS/SW isn't not as cut and dry (LEL left vs Kazuya) and timing is another thing at high level Tekken that differs per opponents play style. Dash block is also a high level movement technique that relies on your dash to be deep enough so you can block properly as you cancel the dash forward. But in a way where the distance is safe enough so you don't eat a launcher coming in.