I've heard some people say that Valentino being portrayed as less dangerous and initimidating outside Angel's perspective actually makes sense, as abusers actually can look stupid and unthreatening to those who aren't their victims and it plays into that beyond his abuse Valentino is an entitled, stupid fuck up who isn't a danger to Charlie and most of the rest of the Hotel. all this to say he can be scary AND a joke, it just depends on the context.
Yeah my abuser came off to everyone else as just a dumb fuck who needed to be held by the hand. It feels so invalidating when no one else sees the threat. When your abuser is seen as a joke, it feels like the joke is on you And for that I really like Valentino’s portrayal because it mimics how shit can really feel
exactly. i like that its done that way because abusers aren’t actually too smart or intimidating outside of their abuse. there isn’t anything special about them, and they deliberately use mental, physical, or emotional abuse to keep their victims down and from breaking away because otherwise there isnt anything that would keep their victims close. in reality abusers are weak.
I hate how twitter says "we need to bring attention to sexual abuse and similar crimes." but then when a show or movie does literally that all the sudden it is a bad thing. In my opinion no problem ever gets fixed if you ignore it. I also hate how murder and literal torture is ok to use as a narrative device but there are things that are "too far".
Tuca and Bertie had a full series arc about this. Bertie was SA’d as a child and had a boss who harrassed her, and she has fantasies about it. They have an episode with a therapist explaining it is totally normal for victims to recontextualise their abuse in a way which gives them control. Poison is a part fantasy sequence, I mean he says he is disassociating at one point.
EXACTLY I honestly think that people on Twitter are just too privileged to see the real issue here hence why scenarios like this never get taken seriously and people just continue to suffer.
@@youropinionsareshitandsoar1954 Not only are most of them too privileged. Most of them have little to no actual really bad experiences. Compare much of what they say on many "mental health" topics and those who actually experienced them. You'll usually find a difference.
Not only that, but it takes place after Valentino states that they are filming *all night* so every change of scene we see outside of the stage is just one night before he returns to the hotel and tries to act as if nothing happened after literally breaking down on his own room, locking himself up as he can't take anymore. It's....really messed up if you think about it.
I genuinely would love to see a bunch of terminally online twitter users react to shows like Law and Order: SVU. If they think that portrayal of Angel Dust was bad, their heads would absolutely roll watching that show.
@@thecarwas_taken9073 I don't think they were ..making that association. I believe they just mean that in even dumber situations, people have gotten mad for villains for doing typical villain debauchery like stealing, lying etc; I have seen that before.
@@thecarwas_taken9073Except SA IS a bad thing to do. Again, villains do bad things. Even in the real world, there are people who do bad things simply because they like doing bad things. For example, William H. Spengler Jr. He killed his sister, set her house on fire, and ambushed the firefighters that responded because he wanted to burn down as much of his neighborhood as possible and he liked killing people. He made no attempt to justify what he did, just flat-out admitted that he liked killing people in a letter that was found by the police.
@@emoryweatherspoon2013 You aren't wrong. Even worse some are very prone to making victims where there aren't any or label people abusers when they aren't the one doing it. To the point that some with that mentality will even try to bully non-victims with completely consentual encounters that the encounters were anything but consentual, specially if there is anything at all that can't be labeled as completely and absolutely vanilla about the encounter. It makes me wonder, considering it's twitter and how they will create many of the "monsters" they attack, if the supposed fetishism this person has isn't coming from this very Scene itself. Creating a bit of a paradox of them being called out for having this fetish and then storyboarding the scene but this scene, and how certain types choose to interpret it is the very basis for that claim of something that they supposedly had before that particular scene. (i.e. they created the scenes because of their fetish but they only have this fetish because of these specific scenes.)
The depiction of Valentino's abuse of Angel is shocking, but it isn't remotely close to glorifying or justifying it. Valentino has so far been portrayed without any positive attributes whatsoever; he isn't depicted as a "fun" villain like Vox or Alastor but as a complete piece of shit.
One of his first introductions in the series proper is him throwing a tantrum and ripping someone to shreds. And Vox even says this is typical behavior
Yep the closest they come is making him comedic when bad things happen to him, which I think is fine he's such a heavy concept that a little bit of levity at his expense is actually appreciated
Keep in mind that villains are necessary for a story too. In real life, we do not need 'villains', we do not need bad people. But in fiction, we do. For a proper story, we always need an antagonistic force wether it is justified or not. That is why Val is necessary for story, for Angel Dust's story. In order for him to have a character arc, he needs obstacles, which is where Val comes along. Do I like Val? Absolutely not. Do I believe his actions are justified or anything? Hell no! Ew. But is he necessary for the fictional story, and Angel Dust's arc? Yes.
An abuse survivor could literally tell people exactly what happened to them and how it affected them and twitter would tell them that they’re fetishizing and glorifying abuse.
I agree because if u don't experience it you don't understand I prefer not going to to deep with my experience I'm in the healing process and it was a long time
Its because the actual SA survivors(or at peast 90% of us) that are saying its fine, and people that have no business even watching this show(minors) that are saying its bad...
Poison is very similar to the song All You Wanna Do from Six the Musical. Both use pop music and flashy aesthetics to express the state of mind/environment the singer is in, while also communicating the toxicity, danger, and anguish their abuse creates. However, I haven't seen AYWD be misinterpreted anywhere near as much as Poison, despite Six also having a very young fanbase- probably because Six doesn't have a massive pre-existing hatedom.
And the way that the American vs British version of the song handles the "realization" is one of the biggest pluses for me. The British one the singer is trying to keep their brave face but is obviously disturbed by it. In the American one, she has an open breakdown. Both showing different reactions and both are valid.
ngl Idol from Oshi No Ko isnt quite about sexaul abuse but Poison honesty reminds me of it with the whole switching between how the singer is actually feeling how the pretend to feel
Yeah, the pre-existing hate-dom is probably a big factor here. This show has been anticipated since 2020, so there were definitely a lot of people who were queued up and ready to criticize anything and everything the moment the episodes dropped.
as a survivor I feel we need this shit in media and its supposed to make people uncomfortable. cause if it's not hitting people in the face then it's gets swept under the rug and it's easier to claim ignorance and downplay exactly how traumatizing this shit is.
I'm lucky enough to have not experience that but i agree, i think that if you're protraying a taboo uncomfortable topic it shouldn't hold back being uncomfortable
@roze2796 I _really _*_really_* hope I'm not diminishing your statement when I'm saying this, but I'm still shocked that this wasn't obvious to them. I'm sorry you had to deal with that, too...
it's kind of the issue, a lot of people just wanted a swear filled show that tries to show moral people as bigots and reckless people as misunderstood, which is true sometimes as some are proud in their obedience and others didn’t ask for bondage, but the way people ignore the reality of the pain and issues and consequences of peoples actions as well the abuse in the porn industry, it's confronting their own wrong desires, and they don't want that. Sad, sorry you all went through this. Sorry. I don’t support the idea of Christians watching the show, but for what I’ve seen there are real and good messages in it.
As a victim of extremely violent SA along with conversion therapy I dont understand why we always have t0 be the perfect little image of a victim. We cant have weird kinks, we can't be sexual, we have to be sad and depressed, and we have to be suicidal. If we aren't those things we become increasingly scrutinized by people including the very people who claim to support us. I've had people make fun of the abuse I went through as a kid purely because I think Angel Dust is an alright depiction into how some victims are. I've noticed that, despite what people say, they only care about us if we act exactly how they want and think we should. If we don't what happened to us becomes a joke, a thing to target. Its so fucked. I wish people would actually support victims instead of supporting only the 'right' ones.
the stupid thing is that angel dussys behaviour is actually a logical reaction to his treatment and theres so many ways people cope with trauma and its isnt just one thing
Ha ha us Autists are right there with you, my friend. We're either too traumatised or not traumatised enough, and too weird or not weird enough. Can't win, you either fit the perfect media depiction of autism or you're getting the boot from all directions.
They only want to uplift and support “the perfect victim”. But because there is no perfect victim, they end up supporting very very few victims. Seems to me that people like that are not helping ANYONE from an altruistic perspective, but rather a self-serving one… they want to take credit for the healing and growth of their chosen “perfect victim”. They want to appear like they’ve successfully helped, without doing any of the hard work. It is easier to post a hashtag after all…
Back when I was working at McDonald's as a teenager, my manager would constantly make rape jokes, trauma dump and just casually bring up how she was raped and molested as a child and one day I was sick of it and told her to stop that s*** and it made me uncomfortable (as a SA victume myself) and she broke down and cried and she said it makes her just as uncomfortable but that's how she copes and she doesn't know any other way she told me how it kept her up at night and sometimes it crosses her mind out of nowhere and temporarily paralyzes her and the only way to snap out of it is to laugh about it so she starts making jokes after that every time she made a joke about it I just gave her a hug and understood.
Kudos to you for having the courage to accept her coping mechanism. Honestly, were I in your place I'd have insisted on placing some boundaries if I had to deal with someone making jokes about my traumas, because of a trigger risk
Terrible Writing Advice made a video on media literacy and one of the points he brought up was literally exactly this: “If a show or piece of media has a bad thing in it, then that obviously means it’s endorsing the bad thing! The negative framing of the bad thing? The clearly bad guys doing the bad thing? The weight of the effect that the bad thing has on an individual or community afterwards? Forget all that, simply presenting the bad thing means that the show is actively endorsing and is the moral equivalent of doing the bad thing!”
Reminds me of how they're taking away the sexist aspect of Sokka's character, because CLEARLY making a main character have a flaw he eventually overcomes means the show is DEFINITELY endorsing it. Kill me. Y'all ever notice the sheer lack of nuance in most media these days? Like, we used to have to analyze the color of curtains.
@@randompromises1038 Hell, you can't even speak to nuances in real life without someone calling you an "Istaphobe" because how dare someone want to discuss a topic that has nuance and is complicated. I got called racist because I said that I had a hard time understanding a customer who had a super thick accent, never mind that I'm hard of hearing, so I felt super bad for asking them five times to repeat what they said and I'm sure the customer was also embarrassed for needing to repeat themselves and being unable to comunicate.
*Artwork reflecting trauma often gets misinterpreted as fetishization because there's an inherent vulnerability and self expression necessary most only associate with sexuality.* at the end of the day, husks approach made Angel feel better. if he wanted sunshine and "its all gonna be ok" that's Charlie's schtick. Sometimes you just need to know you're not alone even if they don't 100% understand what you're going through. I loved Angel's song, it made me feel grief and fear and sorrow for his forced tolerance of his own abuse. I loved husk's song, it was empathetic and raw and even if he didn't 100% know Angel's treatment, the lyrics mostly reflect his own as an Olive branch. There's tons of criticisms one can give the shows pacing, writing and development, but these scenes were diligently focused on and it shows.
Husk's song can be summarised "yeah, you are going through some shit but hey, so am I, you don't have to go through all of it alone" or something like that I think :)
I'd watch the video, I agree with the sentiments Braxton puts out generally. While I don't agree that person shouldve been part of the team, the end product is what we are critiquing @@S0urmf420
@@S0urmf420okay and? The work itself wasn't fetishizing, and what say do you have about how a storyboarder gets their rocks off? Nearly half of all women have had a rape fantasy at some point, and guess what? Survivors do it too. Survivors aren't so damaged they just suddenly don't have kinks. And don't give me the crap about "unhealthy coping mechanisms" because a lot of folks have their kinks before ever experiencing real life trauma, and plenty retain their kinks because guess what? Fantasy is actually different from reality. Shocking right? If you're upset about some guy having a kink you don't like, at least go crusade on that platform instead of implicating a large production where these scenes were repeatedly reviewed and signed off on.
If Oppenheimer discourse didn't convince you Media Literacy is a dead skill...The discussion around this show should. Like people were legit asking "why did Oppenheimer have to have such a downer ending?" I dunno. It ELUDES me.
It's not even just purely media literacy; it's almost like a portion of the world is finding themselves increasingly unable to read beyond the surface, to read things in ways beyond black and white, and otherwise decipher similarly-layered/subtle concepts. Whatever catch-all term you're going for, I'm sure it's related in some fashion Yet it's distressing, baffling, and a ton of other words that just anti-vibes me to my core tbh
What I love the most about "Loser baby" is the fact that Husk never grabs Angel's hand. He always extend his paw waiting for Angel to reach him. He's not the kind of helper like Charlie (I love her but) she tried to save Angel regardless If he wants her to do so or not; "Don't talk to my boss I beg you" "It's ok, I will do It becase I want to help". Husk on the other hand is like someone who's offering his help not take for granted to a person to actually take It but If they reach for him, he will be there. That song was litteral whole conversetion about accepting yourself and others boundaries as under umbrella it was Angel who extended his hand to Husk waiting for his consent to grab it. They're embodiment of consent and self respect. I also think Husk is more important than Charlie in Angel's reedemption path for her way is to guide Angel with every step making him feel week on his own (when he was dissapointed in himself without Charlie's approval of the way he is, praising Pentions instead) while Husk allows him to walk on his own no matter how sloppy just accompany along the way and at the moment of weakness Angel can lean on him for support. Husk is also probably the first person since a long time or even ever to show Angel that he has a choice on his own and also showing him that as long as he is himself Husk will have no reason to push him away making Angel really secure about himself around our fellow feline. Aaaand I also wanna add that Husk is absolutelly perfect for our spider boy with being open about his boudaries calling it out when Angel push them, teaching him how to respect them, showing the meaning of consent and actually helping him lean about things he probably never experienced on his own. As someone who lost his ability to love, is gambling, old alcoholic Husk's heart is sure in really good condition. And I hope for season 2 to show us Angel's wreaked heart being slowly healed in order to be there for Husk ^^
Tbh, I think Charlie will become more important in Angels redemption, especially since its clear that Angel cares alot about her and tries to protect her, but I think the season shows that right now, Charlie has a fairly narrow understanding of redemption and is still naive about the situations many sinners live through. Which I think is actually great, because it is easy to fall into the trapping of making a purely good and kindhearted character flawless. Charlie has issues and shortcomings not only despite being a very empathetic and kind person but specificially due to that, like a tendency to put too much good faith in others, which she did with Valentino that prevented her from really grasping the situation Angel is in, as well as a trend to strongly repress anger and aggression, which makes her prone to being stepped upon and taken advantage of.
I think people are so sensitive about Loser, Baby simply because the word Loser is used. I think a lot of people didn't really look into what it means to be a Loser, which isn't to say a person sucks but rather that they lost, and the point of the song was that it's okay to lose sometimes, it doesn't mean you have to constantly be so hard on yourself for it. It's an extremely comforting song in that way. I totally get how the language isn't for everyone but I also wish people would think about it more before jumping to conclusions. It really sucks that victims who like the show keep getting flack over this, and that yes, I agree, younger victims to struggle to understand the difference between a bad depiction and one that just makes them upset because it understandably brings up bad memories.
Yeah, there’s a reason the show is 16+ and that episode in particular is 18+. The show is really not intended for teens or younger, which might explain some of the reactions. As an SA victim myself, I think they did a great job with portraying abuse. We don’t need another afterschool special approach to these things.
One of my biggest pet peeves is when a group of trauma survivors act like they speak for everyone and completely ignore how other survivors feel. The truth is that there will NEVER be a perfect way to depict things and that is ok. It is okay to not like something or think it could be handled better. Its ok not to be able to handle certain things. It is not ok to use your trauma as an excuse to attack others for having a different opinion over something or act like your feelings matter over everyone else's. I have seen it alot with this shit, be it traumacore or how people depict an oc, a group will form and react harshly, despite other survivors finding comfort in it or the person creating it being a fuckin surivor themselves. You are not the fuckin trauma police.
basically it boils down to the issue with people taking discomfort as problematic. that's why so many diss on games and art and other media that depicts things that are SUPPOSE to make you uncomfortable. andie and leyley doesn't promote incest or murdering your parents but that's what happens in the game because adam and leyley, the siblings, are both horrible human beings, so the actions they take are going to be horrible and uncomfortable. that's the point. and it seems people don't like that anymore. you can't make something uncomfortable because people react to it as if the person who created it supports that awful behavior. I'm part of the art community as well as a few otger fandoms and communities. and the amount of people that tell you, that you can't say or do or make something that makes THEM uncomfortable is absurd. like, sometimes things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. and if you don't like it you can ignore it by blocking it or moving on. I don't know if I explained well but my goal was to add onto your point about how so many think their feelings define the whole and that you can't enjoy things just cause it made one group uncomfortable. like yeah it sucks some didn't find enjoyment but that's okay, there's other forms of media that will bring them enjoyment.
@@Its_Asteria No, I get it and your right. Thank you for that. Andy and leyley is another perfect example of people who can't understand that fiction is nuanced and people will put there own feelings over every one else's. Honestly this "anti" shit has gone to far and is at the point were if you go beyond anything past the fuckin care bears in levels of complexity or seriousness your some how "normalizing" or "fetishizing" something. I miss when fiction was fuckin fiction, and not something that had the power to literally influence full grown adults. The "don't like it, don't interact" practice and personal accountability needs to come back badly.
Exactly, I myself have trauma but the way I handle it is differently, and the way I feel about it being depicted here is differently. One thing I can say is that my trauma may not be as bad as angel dusts but it’s still trauma. If a show creator makes trauma in a character and says it’s trauma, it’ll be that whether you like it or not. The way they depict trauma is on them, everyone else experiences stuff differently and there should NOT be a stereotype for abuse. In lower terms, this really isn’t fetishization. If it was it would be really fucking obvious but people don’t like to use their eyes and ears and actually think, because if they actually watched the episodes instead of tweeting with their greasy little fingers they would see how it’s written.
Exactly!!! I will never not feel mad at other trauma survivors dismissing hypersexuality as a legitimate response and coping mechanism of trauma. You are not holier than thou to be sex repulsed!! Accept trauma survivors with hypersexuality. Ffs.
"You're a loser... but its time to ditch your self loathing." Seriously, how can anyone not understand that "Loser, Baby" is incredibly uplifting. Seriously, I'd been in a low point with my chronic depression, and that song actually managed to lift me out of it for the first time in nearly two years of being stuck in it.
I'm very sorry to hear about your depression. As someone who has a friend and does my best to help him in his battle with depression, I have a pretty good understanding of how depression is a constant battle, and it means a lot to be a friend for that person, and this song really helps me in getting in the positive mindset to help out. I tell my friend that it's okay to be low, there's nothing wrong with him, and it's okay to feel like a loser, as long as he has friends like me, and that as long as he loves himself, doesn't hate himself, and that he looks on the bright side as best he can, and he usually cheers up. Glad to see that you can find happiness against depression with a song in your heart like this one, like I do.
Kinda late to the party here, but I just have to agree with you. I pretty much had the same experience. I’ve been so low for so long, and then here comes this show and this song, and it’s like woah okay. I am feeling inklings of happiness for the first time in years. Loser, Baby is incredibly uplifting and a fantastic song. The last verse gets me every time. Sometimes being told that “yeah your life does suck. I know how you feel” is the exact thing you need to hear to “lose your self-loathing”.
@@kinghyperheart1571 you remind me of a very good friend of mine. He’s the same way. And the one person who never fails to make me smile despite not really knowing or fully understanding what I’m going through. He’s just there to support me and love me. So I just wanted to say that I’m sure your friend really appreciates you a lot, dude. Having a friend like you is so incredibly important and wonderful. Thanks for being such a cool person ✌️hope you have a nice day haha
As someone who’s a victim, angel dust is a really relatable depiction. MANY sa victims are hypersexual or just aren’t sex repulsed. People love to police how victims act, even if they’re a cartoon
@@randompromises1038 yeah people dont like when they actually have to think about the experiences of a fictional character which literally makes them a good character and the realism to their emotions and the way they react trying to make the characters feel as human as possible which I believe angel dust is extremely relatable to me.
@@andromeda_neko I'm not an SA victim but I am still an abuse one (physical/emotional/verbal) and a lot of times when my experiences are portrayed it's one of two ways - either the victim is frail and quiet and jumps easily or they're the villain. There's rarely an in-between that shows the messy depression, the need to please others even if it's literally damaging you, the drifting towards other abusive relationships either to replace the one you're not in or because you feel compelled to "fix them". Being a victim is unhealthy and complicated and full of struggle and makes us messy. It makes us prone to making more mistakes, gives us imposter syndrome, makes us hate ourselves in a way more visceral than our own abusers, makes things hard and scary. But none of these things get to be portrayed because it doesn't paint a palatable picture of what abuse truly does to a person. But if we didn't get the sugary version of the abuse, why do other people who've never experienced what we have?
I think a lot of media literacy death stems from folks being like "I don't like this piece of media with a popular fanbase and/or with a creator I don't like" then feeling the NEED to find something "problematic" to justify it. It's alright to just...not like a show, no need to make villains out of those who do lol
I feel like part of this stems from the “let people enjoy things” mentality. Because of the history on the internet of people being harassed for odd but innocent enjoyment (something awful hated anyone who was even associated with furries), there’s now this huge overcorrection where people fear that saying that you dislike anything is actually you inviting the people who made it to be harassed. So in order to feel better about this paranoid delusion about a creator being harassed, they reach for straws to call something problematic so when they go to bed at night, they can say “I’m a good person. I got a (bad person) harassed, which is a good thing that should happen because it stops them from doing that bad thing” But obviously it doesn’t
It's a mix of a few different things. I'll bullet point them to save myself time... -Rise of binge watching & passive viewing (i.e. playing a show in the background while doing something else). -Social media encouraging content that provokes visceral emotionality (i.e. ragebait, misery porn, etc etc). -General rule of signal-to-noise ratios (i.e. more people you have in a given discussion, the lower the quality of discussion tends to be). -General failure in education on the individual, community, and societal levels (i.e. inability to handle ideas and concepts without the aforementioned visceral emotionality). -Unabashed increase in overt propaganda and the increasing levels of politicization in media and society, more generally. The best thing you can do when it comes to asinine discussions is to avoid them entirely. Instead of giving any attention to intellectual chimps on Twitter, put forward or take part in discussions that put forth properly considered and grounded criticism. It's actually a testament to just how dull-witted and insipid some people can be that, of all things, they choose to complain about Angel Dust and not the wider, and significantly more pertinent and tangible, problems Hazbin Hotel has - such as it's structure, pacing, and the fact that it's speedrunning its own premise.
omg i remember when the alastor voodoo drama started someone on tiktok literally said "finally vivziepop is revealed to be a racist so i can bash on her" like at least be subtle??? if youre not caring about the actual racism and only care about hating on vivziepop then youre the racist yourself. they deleted their video tho
@@kayu. Exactly!! And I think when it comes to more nuanced subject matter as, I don't know, how victims respond to abuse, it can be REALLY bad. Because if an SA victim related or felt seen with Angel Dust's depiction, then imagine how shitty it must feel to see others calling it "disgusting" and "fetishizing." Literally being told their response to trauma is WRONG. I'm not saying there can't be a discussion on the matter, but to paint it all in one stroke when everyone knows trauma reflects differently in everyone is very dangerous
@@kayu. Oh my gosh that reminds me of back when I was big into The Adventure Zone and someone who really hated the McElroy brothers literally said something along the lines of "I hope it comes out that one of them raped someone so everyone starts hating them and I can feel vindicated for being right." And I was just like WOW. This guy really just said they hoped someone was raped so they can feel morally correct about not liking a piece of entertainment.
I'm literally a survivor and I think we NEED media representation like this. It's not fetishizing at all and if you think it is than it aligns you more dangerously with angels abuser than I think most anyone wants to be
"Uncomfortable and...dirty.." YES! The team nailed Anthony's trauma for someone like me who has been lucky to not experience this stuff in real life. Its really uncomfortable, not titillating. I grimaced and forced myself to look at the screen. It was shot in such a way to not glamorize it, but also let you see just how bad of a lifestyle you can be trapped in and WHY he chooses the coping mechanisms he does. It makes sense and I am enjoying this imperfect yet wonderful series!
I've been abused and I take a kind of solace in seeing it represented in media. Fiction is great for exploring powerful emotions both negative and positive, people have just become so allergic to nuance
Angel's abuse is not being glorified in the song. It's very clear to me that Angel's trauma response is the fawn response, where he becomes incredibly agreeable to keep his abuser happy so he can make himself safe. As an SA survivor myself who also engages in the fawn trauma response, I found Poison particularly validating. For Fawners, there exists a lot of shame in not "fighting back" or "saying no." This can lead to them questioning the validity of their abuse and whether they have been at all because they "can only blame [themelf]." As a fawner, I saw myself in this scene.
as did i. i didnt suffer the level of abuse in Angels scene but i have my own connections and "flashbacks". i cried every time i watched the music video and forced myself to watch it again and again with other people reacting to this scene and its extremely validating that peoples hearts breake for Angel and his situation. the amount of people who almost fell out of their chairs when Charlie went into Demon Mode to help Angel against Val? i absolutely loved every reaction because its the reality of a very slippery slope.
I turn to fawning too. My ex never hit or blew up, more like if you took Alastor's style and mix it with Val. This song hit so hard. I hope you are doing well on your healing journey.
I know someone who survived being trafficked, Angel dust is their favourite character. Acknowledging something bad exists is not fetishization, and representation of someone who's been through it and is not only still a full person, but a good person in spite of the damage and the facade they need to cope, can be genuinely healing. People need to shut up about shit they know nothing about.
THIS! I cope the exact same way and find him SO comforting. It's so sad seeing people dismiss any portrayal of something that isn't what fits with their outsider ideals.
The fact that i saw people tell SA survivors who defended this episode that they lie, should prove they were SAd and even told to be SAd again because it wasnt enough for them to understand ep4 is bad is sick. And it wasnt the fans i saw do this shit it was the haters being shitty as always
Consistently, in every way, anti-fans are objectively worse than fans. Always. By their very nature, people who are deeply upset that other people are having fun with something they don't vibe with, anti-fans are cancer and need to just be dismissed.
@@Lupostehgreat I don't understand anti-fans. If you don't like a piece of media for whatever reason, fine, but why then waste all this time, energy and effort consistently trying to rip it apart? I barely have time for the shit I LIKE, I can't imagine being so starved for attention and having the time to waste on shit I don't.
@@Lupostehgreat its in the inherent nature of both aspects themselves. actual fans are built off of passion and love for something while anti-fans are built off of vitriol and hate.
@@SISIOTW yup, and we are at this wierd fever pitch of anti-fans, again. It's a cycle; the last time we were in this cycle was during the height of the angry reviewing craze in the late 00's, early 10's. We're moving out of it, again, and good riddance.
This just proves that a lot of these people don't actually care about SA victims or SA being written correctly. They just want reasons to shit on the show
twitter when the writers don’t turn to them dora the explorer style and explain that yes, this scene where a character is being abused and has to turn to substance to cope is, if fact, meant to show how horrific his situation is.
Not an SA survivor, but I was abused physically and emotionally/verbally as a child, and I've noticed this awful trend within writing that sort of takes the exact things I've experienced and makes them seem like desirable experiences...? This was a Wattpad phenomenon where I saw girls actively fawning over the asshole love interest who should have DEFINITELY given the fmc lasting psychological issues. Now, I have to be paranoid about my writing in portraying the things I did experience, but having to jump through so many hoops to make sure it isn't taken as a positive or justified portrayal of these very awful things.
It's really not just on Twitter, it's everywhere now. Like hell on Reddit I saw people on a movie sun arguing about how Dune Part II glamorizes the idea of a white savior when literally the entire movie was screaming the entire time about the literal opposite. People simply cannot comprehend complex storytelling anymore.
@@Illier1 I wonder if that's happening just because more younger people are on the internet nowadays or if social media is killing off our braincells... maybe both
@@tami7992 I wouldn't be so quick to blame the younger folks. Millenial here, both my generation and the inmediate previous ones are at best "dbz gud bicuz gOkU kills all bicuz power levl heil hydrA". "dragon" ball, rwby, cocomelon, every generation has its own braincells killer...
I’m a survivor as well. For me it also became hypersexuality & hypersexualising myself; there’s near no representation of this, only asexuality as a result (which is equally valid, though CAN be romanticised and called ‘pure’ while the opposite is made taboo). This is from my personal experiences being HS online, luckily I’ve been granted the ability to heal due to being stubborn enough to push on and build a good social network Angel is a breath of fresh air if anything else, he encourages people to empathise with others that on a surface level just seem ‘lustful’. I’m grateful for Vivienne’s depiction of SA, it isn’t something that’s universally experienced the same, and neither is the trauma caused by it
exactly this poison made me feel so validated though I did end up relapsing pretty severely from the episode in general but in no way did i see it as glorifying it, I saw it as one of the most accurate depictions of the kind of abuse and my coping mechanisms i built up to deal with it.
Angel Dust's experiences and SA storyline lets people who've been hurt like him have someone to resonate with, and then watching him grow past his trauma can offer those same people some hope. The show is actively still releasing episodes, so of course it looks real bad now. They have to set up the problem to give the proper solution later on. Literally, we have to let them cook! As rushed as Hazbin is, I'm trusting the storytellers to make good on what they've set up with Angel.
Honestly I feel the rushed nature of Hazbin Hotel might be due to not getting as many episodes for season 1 as they might’ve wanted. 8 30 minute episodes isn’t a lot if they were given say 12 30 minute episodes or the episodes were 45 minutes long maybe they’d have been able to pace it out more. We are getting a season 2 so maybe by then they’ll have better pacing. That being said I really like the show so far the newest episode “welcome to heaven” had a really good song in “you didn’t know” at least I thought so
@@Crystal_Dylan Oh yeah 100%. That's why as frustrating as it is I give the show grace for it. I really felt the fast pace hurt it bad in episode 3 with the whole Vaggie and Charlie trust fight, but I know they only have so much time to tell the story they want to, and they're doing their best.
That is also something else, I have seen how people now do not want to wait for a problem to be resolved, they act as if they want the problem to be resolved in the same chapter in which it is presented.
Basically there's no single right answer, victims are not a monolith. Some SA victims find Angel's reclaiming his incident uplifting and relatable, and other victims who find Angel's abuse being portrayed in a flashy pop song triggering and offensive. There are different levels of sensitivity to the topic and how it was portrayed, and both types are valid (disregarding all the people who just use buzzwords to hop on the drama bandwagon)
It's funny because following the general stagecraft of a musical, which Hazbin most certainly is, when emotions become so overpowering that spoken words can't convey the message that's when characters break out into song. So of course the SA scene would be in the form of a song about Angel internalizing his trauma!
@@journeymanic9605I guess the argument could be made that it didn’t have to be structured into a pop song of all things, but again I’m not one to discuss in detail how this theme and such topic should be handled
@@terrizoop3739 I'm not so sure that being a pop song is much of a problem. Many pop so gs are about abuse. The fact that it's upbeat is in line with Angel's character. He masks his trauma with an upbeat oversexed attitude. The music is high energy and even fun, but the lyrics are about how it's killing him.
The problem is people acting like their triggers are anything but their own. Their attitude about their trauma is why they aren't able to heal, because treating yourself as a victim doesn't allow for healing, growth, coping, anything! And no, this isn't victim-blaming. They're not at fault for being abused, just for refusing to cope appropriately.
I don't see anyone talking about Angel's voice literally CHANGING when his true self comes out during the whole Valentino situation, after he sees his real name on the contract.
Angels voice changes constantly from masculline to femmenine depending on how real and honest he's being vs how how much he's acting. Like every other line is a full voice twice in poison. Alistor also has a similar thing where his radio effect will tune down the more honest and emotional he's being, occasinally the radio effects turns off completely.
I absolutely feel seen with Angel's depiction and even Valentino's bumbling-ness later on, because yeah, in hindsight my abusers were stupid af, they just had power over me due to circumstance, if anything that made it feel more real to me tbh
Exactly this. Through hindsight at the person who terrorized me for most of my life, I too learned that having high people manipulation skills doesn't make an overall competent or impressive person. It's just marketing that sells this false idea to insecure people, that confident and competent people get others to do everything for them because they're just better than eeeeeveryone else for having *this* cool new product. The same guy that made my life a living hell, repeatedly poked a wasp nest (without even smoking them out first) with some glue to try and plug up the thing, JUST to avoid hiring a professional. It's as if they use everyone else as meat shields for their own refusal to learn the kinder spectrum of skills and wisdom
It would sound naive for anyone to say that it’s unrealistic for abusers to act like normal goofy people. We’ve been clowning on pedos and zoos all the time when their allegations came out. When people say a bad person can act normal they truly mean the cute little goofball next door could break into your house to gut you open, they’re not gonna be a charming womanizer to every person they encounter.
As a survivor of abuse, Angeldust represents 💯! The way he blames himself and feels responsible to put himself in between everyone else and his abuser, and the way he becomes hell bent on keeping other at risk people from becoming victims like him, that's as real as it gets; it's not glamorous, and if it sounds glamorous to you, or looks glamorous when you see Angel go through it on screen then you should get your flipping head checked, you might already be a victim and not even recognize it 😞.
I think there is a certain aesthetic of glamour, which is innate to pop really, involved in it the music video, but it links heavily into both the intersection of glamour and abuse Angel is trapped in, which is fitting considering the prevalance of abuse and exploitation of both women and younger, especially queer, men in the entertainment industry and the fact that Angel is romanticizing and glamourising his abuse as a defense mechanism.
@@shizachan8421 exactly this - angel's "badass power bottom" mask is such a familiar one a lot queer men adopt as a silver bullet against a lot of casual social homophobia, but inhabiting that persona of "there's nothing this party can throw at me i'm not down for" can be a very real risk to not quite knowing when you're in over your head. the sequence *is* glamorous and erotic, because that's the food that was "poisoned"; vices that were used against him.
I’m too tired to offer the adequate praise this comment deserves, but just know that this was a YES! angel feels so real in a way that most shows for some reason never actually depict (its not just a one minute thing that sucks and then hes fine, but its also not a running joke or a constant attention grab saying “look at that character! we are showing representation now!” he just feels like a perfect way to handle the topic). AND his character doesn’t rely on shock value from the audience to make a point. honestly, whenever there was a really good scene, animation wise, script wise, anything, i just had to pause and think about it and watch it again because it was so good (it feels so empowering the way that he is, i don’t know how else to say that, like it doesn’t make it too uncomfortable to watch or retraumatize me but its still full of emotion and compassion).
Survivor here too, and I wholeheartedly agree. I saw the way that Angel put himself in front of Valentino and turned away the people that he cared about to not only keep them safe, but to control the situation and try to minimize what damage he would face himself later. It made my heart absolutely drop, because it was just so familiar. That's what abusers do, they divide you out away from the people that can help you. They see outside influence as a threat. There was so much nuance in this portrayal that it made my head spin a bit.
I would also like to add that the main reason that storyboard artist was used for Poison specifically is because they are also a choreographer. They storyboarded for Klown Bitch in Helluva Boss, and choreographed for Addict
That whole issue seemed really weird to me because like. Obviously I don't know this artist or their intentions but like--someone can have a kink and separate that from their job? Like yeah I can understand thinking "hm that's a bit weird" but especially with a super fantasy-heavy kink like cnc provided you aren't a horrible person it's gotta be Pretty Fucking Easy to separate "the type of material that is for this kink" with "Everything Else About Sexual Abuse" y'know? I just don't think this is that big of a deal (although it is separately weird that this person decided to make content about this for a show they were working on/had in the past, but that's not evil it's just. Odd).
@@Ray-hk1zm This! It's so weird how people discover someone has a kink and think that's something that person will necessarily have on their mind 24/7. There's time and place. Like you said, they were asked to do a job and did it. It's not so complicated. Also, YES CNC is so fantasy-related. Basically acting and fiction. Like, who knew! A good artist can write/draw a scene where someone commits murder and it's portrayed as great and satisfying and cathartic and also a scene where it's horrifying and evil and terrible. Context matters.
Also I feel like even if Viv knew there’s kinda no legal basis to restrict/fire the worker based on this as far as I know. It’d definitely be illegal where I live
Someone I'm following on Instagram said that this show was sexualizing/fetishizing Angel's abuse and I was absolutely dumbfounded. Like...there's no way you actually watched the show if you think that, or at the very least you didn't watch Masquerade. The most sexualized part of Angel's trauma are the parts HE HIMSELF sexualizes as a COPING MECHANISM. Plus, developing hypersexuality due to being sexually abused is a real thing that happens to people?? Not all sexual abuse survivors deal with their trauma in the same way nor always feel the same way about sex after the fact, and the fact that people see exploring the different ways people can be traumatized by SA as fetishization is fucking insane.
i think a big reason for the fetishization claims is due to the fact that (alledgedly) one of the storboardists for the show (who also storyboarded poison) fetishized rape , an example being that they made a "rapeship" for angel dust and valentino .. whether or not i believe the animation itself was fetishized or not ? i think it kind of was ?? i mean , in the view of the people who made it . i know what they were going for, but if what they say is true then ... yeesh
@@swisystuffif it is true about that dude, then Jfc. But I think it’s incredibly important to look at episode 4 itself, specifically the song “poison” and how it’s framed. Sure, the choreography’s awesome, the lighting, visuals and animation are all absolutely incredible. But it doesn’t have that feeling of it being a beautiful/attractive spectacle. It gives off the impression that angel is either dissociating or high out of his mind to where he’s going with the flow. After all, he’s not mentally there. However, in the middle and the end of the chorus, we get flashes of scenes that are lighted darker, or are more violent (think the bdsm scene or the moment he’s with valentino). It plays like someone coming down from a high or coming back from a dissociative episode, and all they’re left with is the violent and horrible situation they’ve been in. None of it feels glamorous or fetishized. It’s all simply fluff used to cover the horrible truth of the matter. Much like Valentino, who’s entire design is a vibrant red and yellow which gives him this regal/alluring and suave facade that covers what he really is, a short tempered abusive piece of shit.
As someone who was SA'd and developed such a kink as a result, I honestly see nothing wrong with the kink or r*peships even when done by people who haven't been SA'd, so long as it is not fetishizing real life people. If anything I think it's a real talent to have storyboarded it so well having not gone through that themselves as I really identified with everything that went in to that part of the show from animation to song etc.@@swisystuff
@@swisystuff That was irky, yes but the storyboard artist is as far as I know a SA survivor themselves, so I think its not really on anyone to judge how they cope with Trauma as long as they are not harming anyone, so I would argue at worst one could make a case of them publishing some of the more problematic stuff on a more private account.
at least for me, I didn't came out of the episode offended. I was a SA victim when i was 10, and after some time, I spent my teenage years feeling like angel dust. It took a really long time for me to really escape from the worst parts of my life and overcome depression, and I can see my old self in Angel. I decided to ignore both twitter drama and Fandom, as I do with every piece of media I watch. I prefer to enjoy the show, and if i see bad episodes, or if it becomes objectively bad, I will stop watching it. That being said, I loved the Episode. Definitely one of my favorites tbh.
i was S.A'd, and i am very dissapointed by this portrayal of S.A. they show him enjoying it and doing it willingly but then he turns around and he hates it? I'm verry confused and disapointed. its not a bad portrayal its just not a very logical one in my opinion
@@chordsofsteel-i4j Angels case is a unique one. His abuser not just owns him like one would own a slave, he owns Angels very Soul. He could cause Angel untold pain or even kill him permanently on a whim, and Angel couldnt do anything to stop it. TW Past this point: SA . . . . . . . But on that note, many victims to end up sexualizing/fetishizing their abuse, because it gives them some amount of control over their situation, and a little control is better than no control. In Angels case, he's never shown actually enjoying it. I think you're confusing him having a smile with him enjoying it. Additionally, Angel could actually enjoy doing sex work. He could like acting and like preforming in porn. You cant fault him for doing something he enjoys. Where the abuse comes in is his lack of choice, especially when Val himself gets personally involved. When Val forces himself on him.
@@chordsofsteel-i4jI also enjoyed my SA experience to a degree. I was very confused by it for years. But in the end, I think it's better for my brain to cope with it this way instead of being traumatized and broken by the experience. My therapist explained that it's normal, and even people who've never experienced SA will often fantasize about it. I like the idea of not being in control of what's happening to me, in an isolated context. What makes abuse so terrifying is that when it does cross that line for you, you can't make it stop and the consequences linger. While a fictional story has no real consequences, it doesn't have to cause any real pain to the characters involved. It's why pornography is always so unrelastic. It gives the illusion of that loss of control that you desire without any of the actual pain and hurt and trauma.
At least for me, the worst part is that I enjoyed it at some point. I think it was my way to cope with everything at that point, something that ended up being the main cause of my depression when I was 14, and even made me stop trying to connect and even hate the thought of being with someone, as I was afraid that it could happen again. So, I dont think it was a bad portrayal, as many people end up confused and lost in life when this happens. Angel might like being an artist that works with it, or like acting, but not like his abuser. As I now, love having sex and connecting with people, just hate the person who did this to me.@@chordsofsteel-i4j
@@themanbehindthebruhmoment502 Personally, deleting Twitter legit just helped my mental health too. I got literal sewer slide threats and I just sat there on the couch, fucking deflated because I saw them and read through them all 🤯🤯🤯
As someone who grew up in an abusive household during my teens, Angel's behavior makes sense as a survivor. You do risky behavior to claim back control of your life, and if it harms you, it won't matter since you have such little agency already. Its self destructive and tragic and thats what the show is trying to convey.
@@kingnightmarevin And gives you a chance to laugh at him... And then creates a character almost designed to scare and bully them (Nifty, quite literally rips his fur off)
This is why most people find it very difficult nowadays to voice their own opinions because they would either be a target of hate or brush aside like it was nothing.
This is why most people find it very difficult nowadays to voice their own opinions because they would either be a target of hate or brush aside like it was nothing.
As a person who’s also experienced SA and can relate a lot to angels behavior to a certain point, you’ve explained this perfectly and thank you for doing so. I hate when people say that people are fetishizing their SA experiences just because they handle/cope with their trauma by acting happy or like they’re fine. We try to mask how we really feel and we try to act happy in hopes that we can trick ourselves into thinking we are ok and doing great. It’s hard to explain.
Based on a couple of friends I've had online, victims of SA or otherwise, this does seem to be a general coping mechanism with things even like depression. It's definitely some form of placebo, that by oppressing the trauma or their emotions outwardly, they're trying their best to subdue those emotions and make things better for everyone around them (and hopefully themselves in due time). To a point, it seems scarier to try and take that away from them, that there's a chance that by trying/forcing them to open up you're only letting old wounds bleed even more than they already did. It's definitely a thought that's crossed my mind, at least. ..Though I must stress this is purely based on interactions with friends and I have been lucky to never go through such horrible things. I hate Twitter and everything the replies to JS's tweets stand for.
I think part of the pacing problem with Hazbin is that they only have 8 episodes for the first seasons, that's a very short amount of time to establish characters, their motivations/relationships/personalities etc. As a result there ends up being a lot of tonal whiplash and scenes don't get enough time to settle into their impact, before it gets rushed into the next scene. Im also giving the show a lot of leeway because its nowhere near being done, after all there is season 2 coming and Ive heard theres more planned after that. So hopefully they'll shlow the pacing down a little now that they know thwy dont have to rush the story. ETA: I am not surprised illiterate Twitter users lost their collective marbles when you tried to explain yourself multiple times, they're too used to getting their own way and having creators bend the knee and appologise. So when a creator doesnt apologise and declair themselves as "sinner", they get even more upset because they cant compute as to why their bully tactics didnt work.
Yeah, I would have liked the season to be a bit longer so that we could watch the characters build a bit more. I do think that it is making a lot with the little time it’s got, though.
People keep saying this and while I do believe Viv's hands may have been tied at times. She's still the writer, S1 could have focused on the characters and the world building. S2 could have added the extermination crunch. There are many short works that can tell a cohesive story in less time.
As a berserk fan I understand the struggle. It's ok for people to uncomfortable with the SA scenes, and not watch the show, but I hate how they accused the fans and creators of fetishizing and hating women. SA is ALWAYS shown as pure evil and it has HUGE impact on the characters in Berserk.
then is used as a funny haha joke when sir pentonius ( it think thats his name) is dragged to a room to be SA by others , gotta love vivzie men hating :D
I was goofing off in a convention hotel with my friends who were far more interested in the show than me. The show was a bit of a bumpy ride until the whole sequence with Valentino and Angeldust along with Poison literally skyrocketed my investment. Their interaction upset me greatly (in a intentional uncomfortable way) and Poison felt very personal. I loved how it portrayed the way he put forward his persona to distract from the fact that he's being controlled and to give an appearance of being the one in charge no matter what situations he's forced into, while it eats away at him inside. Writers, story boarders, artists, and their niches and interests aside, they wrote a damned good scene here that feels very real and came across as uncomfortably as it should have. That said, tone seems to be very inconsistent through the show, so I understand this deeply uncomfortable scene giving people whiplash and splitting the fanbase. If this scene was written like the earlier parts of the series, I'd expect Valentino to start singing and really downplaying the seriousness of the scene. I haven't seen anything further than the first 4 episodes, but I hope the writing gets better and they slow the fuck down with their pacing a bit.
After episode 4, it sort of goes back to business as usual. I feel that the inconsistent tone made it come off as insincere, because it came out of left field right after a bunch of “lol p0rn funny” jokes. I definitely could see the intention behind it, but the setup and then payoff in future episodes were ultimately what made it land flat. I disagree with people saying subject matter like this shouldn’t be discussed, but I do agree that it was poorly set up.
I’ve also heard about people complaining about the pacing, but I think it’s because the writers are trying to fit a whole story into 8 episodes with only the “promise” of a second season that, lets face it, in this day and age doesnt mean shit to streaming services, who can and will cancel shows at the drop of a hat.
@@Tjnovakart I'd like to disagree while acknowledging the pacing issue but they only have 8 episodes. After you get abused in real life... The world goes on like normal. Angel's abuse in the show has been going on the whole time before it was shown in detail. What else is there to do but go back to normal... Prawn jokes are the normal. It's a coping mechanism to make fun of elements around the bad thing that's happening. I feel that makes it more sincere... Everything goes back ...
"angels mask" would be believeable , if the show cared, also , a "confident face during "the act" is usually part of what non-consensual freaks enjoy , blaming the " but he/she wanted , so its not really bad "
@@Tjnovakart It went back to "business as usual" because the show skipped four months of time, so we missed a lot of development. But, honestly, I think episode 6 shows that things are not really "business as usual" and Angel is growing stronger to at least stand up enough to Val to protect his friends, whereas before he just frantically tried to get Charlie out of the studio before Val saw her and then stood by silently while he se*ually harassed her.
People want “perfect victims”. They wanna see absolutely depraved shit happen and have the victim react in an “appropriate” manner. A lot of people don’t understand the shades and nuance of mental health. SA/any abuse survivors aren’t a monolith, everyone is affected differently by such a traumatic event that leaves a mark on your very being. Sometimes, people get better or get help, sometimes people become hypersexual, sometimes they objectify themselves, sometimes they spiral, and sometimes they just don’t get better or wind up hurting people themselves. It’s the same type of people that got mad when characters like clay puppington or bojack horsemen were shown that they themselves were victims at one point.
@@justanotherguy560 Exactly right! Like, oh I'm sorry I'm coping in a way that's not appropriate to you, and I'm sorry I feel represented by seeing Angel Dust blame himself for his situation just like I blamed myself for mine. Like it's like victims are beholden to thought crimes to some extent. You HAVE to be the perfect sexless, blameless, perfect little victim for people to root for. And if you're not? You're fetishizing yourself!
(content warning for discussion of suicide and self harm) I remember 13 Reasons Why had a scene that depicted a suicidal character saying something along the lines of "suicide is for the weak, and self harm is something you do so you don't commit suicide. Now look, 13 Reasons Why depicts it's subject terribly, it is horrible when it comes to discussing difficult topics (as discussed in the above video). But, I have seen people suggest that characters should NEVER be depicted with ideas like this. That these kinds of "bad beliefs" should never be shown in any capacity The reality is, that is how some real people think about suicide and self harm. I think its harmful to suggest that these people shouldn't have representation in media - not everyone is this "perfect victim" who does the right things, and thinks the right things all the time. I think that its important to explore these ideas and deconstruct them. And its honestly more impactful for a character like that to get on the road to recovery for a lot of people than it is to see another "perfect victim"
@@justanotherguy560 I was abused (not sexually) as a child and it warped my logic so that I thought only "This is my fault, I deserved it". Once I was taken out of that environment via foster care, I struggled IMMENSELY because I wasn't fighting to survive anymore. I ended up staying in my room watching TH-cam all day and grew an intense attachment to my tablet to where I would have near-anxiety attacks being grounded from it when I was failing so badly I nearly flunked twice in middle school and my hair was in knots. My foster parent did not like the fact I wasn't coping; I was too old to be like a kid who had arguably "easier" reactions to trauma. Being an older kid when the abuse happened, I was mature enough to understand it, but not nearly mature enough to process it. It got to the point she advertised me on Facebook to other foster parents to see if she could get rid of me, while simultaneously discouraging my future adoptive parents from adopting me due to my difficult behavior. Fast forward to being adopted and I am still brainwashed, but with medication and therapy I manage to gain a lot more self-confidence again - then my adoptive mother starts abusing me. Calling me attention-seeking for my relapses, accusing me of having an eating disorder with no proof, allowing my toddler brother to grope me or throw things at my head with no consequence for it while blaming me for supposedly riling him up, being too much, too loud, too talkative about things nobody else cares about, getting mad at me for not tolerating her putting her hands on me... I, incidentally, became the problem of my family. Again. The idea that a child or anybody experiencing life-changing trauma won't somehow be destructive, be harmful or hateful or standoffish, invalidates the experiences of many survivors. I will not sit here and paint a pretty picture of what the aftermath of abuse does to someone just so other people can digest it easier - I never got to digest it easy. Some recover quickly and are doing well mentally and I wish them the best, but I can still wish the best for the ones still struggling, still on the verge of a relapse, still blaming themselves for what they experienced. There is no such thing as a good victim.
I believe val is also based off an old boyfriend of viv's who was abusive as well. I also think viv's portrayal of val was pretty accurate to a lot of real life abusers. A lot of them are insecure idiots who can't emotionally control themselves or rationally work things through, and want to express total power over people they see themselves as "owning". Just like val.
Wow that adds an even more fucked up dimension if true. “Yeah…i know you were abused and all but your expression of your trauma is invalid because I say so”
I’d respect her a hell of a lot more if she addressed the actual SA fetishist who helped storyboard this and didn’t make SA the punchline of multiple jokes all while expecting it be taken seriously when the plot demands it.
Sure, except.... you shot, and missed completely. Vivs portrayal was not meant to be a representation of SA and how people cope with it. Instead, its a homeage to one of her storyboard artists k!nk comic. The whole SA scene is a homeage to Raphielles fet!sh piece, given entirely to them to storyboard. Raphielle is not a SA victim - they are a self-admitted SA fet!shizer, widely known for s_xually harassing kids on Twitter on top of that. Thats what the issue is. I dont know why yall are so dead set on not addressing it.
So true. To be fair, from what I've seen it FEELS LIKE watching a kids show. With all the musicals and pacing it literally reminds me of MY LITTLE PONY. That's not a good thing to be my first thought about a show meant to be for "adults".
@@ActuallyAShrimpplus it doesn't help that the hell vs angel thing seems so shallow, which is disappointing from an adult show who doesn't have any limits in exploring complex and nuanced themes/topics.
@@ActuallyAShrimp Why is that your immediate correlation? There are very dark, adult musicals. Ever heard of Les Miserables? Or, since that's more classic broadway and we're comparing to Hazbin's flashy-ness... uh, ever heard of RENT? The idea that anyone could see even a few *seconds* of this show and think it's a children's show is beyond me. Even 'Happy Day In Hell', which is musically almost Disney like, you can't go more than 5 seconds without seeing something clearly very adult.
Oh thank GOD I've felt like I'm losing my mind watching the discourse around this scene. I understood the drama to some extent when a 10 second clip leaked before the show dropped, and people were making assumptions (though I still thought it was silly without seeing context) but after finally watching the episode and seeing people STILL big mad all over the internet utterly baffled me. I'm a survivor myself, and the scenes were uncomfortable and unnerving, but it was so real. Especially as someone that became hypersexual in my late teens as a result of my trauma, Angel's perspective really meant a lot to me. The death of media literacy... Gee I wish that wasn't so accurate...
@@yayayayaysayayayayayaytyy yeah nah. consensual non-consent is my thing too. I don't appreciate the demonization. And that's not what's being depicted in the canon. And even if someone with my fetish DID use it to get off in a fantasy, it doesn't matter because that's not what's canon? That's why it's still consensual: because fantasies about fiction means it affects literally no one. Quite literally not your business.
@@QuincyQuinn95 forreal, I'm into that shit and the scenes didn't turn me on, they made me uncomfortable. People literally just think kinksters are evil and cnc play is just rape (which lmao consent literally is in the name) when the dynamics are so much more complicated. I'm so exhausted of both the fans and the detractors of this show just failing to be adults with critical thinking about any content whatsoever.
@@yayayayaysayayayayayaytyy Literally everything will appeal to someone's fetish. And even if it does? Who tf cares? These are fictional characters. Angel Dust is not an actual person and you twitter freaks need to understand the separation between fiction and reality before reality hits you in the head with a crowbar.
S/A victims are extremely difficult to write because we often self-fetishize ourselves, which is almost always viewed as the creator being a weirdo. Thanks for talking about it.
My personal issue with the show is that it does a good job at displaying Angel Dust’s experiences with sa (the twitter mob claiming it to be fetishy is… well.. twitters gonna twitter), but the show will simultaneously make jokes about sa at other characters expense. In one of the most recent episodes a scene where Sir Pentious is dragged into a room to have sex with people he doesn’t want to have sex with is weirdly played off for laughs, in an episode which focuses on Angel Dust confronting his abuser. It’s just.. who’s writing this 😭 Like, idk, correct me if I’m wrong here by all means. But why focus on the damage of sexual abuse to one character, and then joke about it with another - even if it’s such a tiny clip. They could’ve easily made some other joke here.
Yeah I commented abt this just now, she has a habit of favoritism. When something bad happens to a supporting character it's played as a joke but if it's someone like Angel it's completely serious
@@amberwingtundrawing776 it just baffles me how there would be such a focus on Angel Dust’s suffering, would the wrongness of the joke not have reached out and slapped her in the face? I’m not a fan of any of her works, or her brand of humour, but I really don’t understand who’s laughing here. Or even if people find it funny, they may find it uncomfortable because it’s literally during a scene in which Angel confronts his abuser 😭🥲
It's such a shame because otherwise, it's a well-setup joke and one of the few ones that would actually be funny if it wasn't for the implied SA. Like, i actually laughed for a split second before realising the implications.
I do apologize on believing the bullshit from Twitter but I didn’t like how people claimed you didn’t care about SA survivors. Twitter is full of dumb people sometimes. Plus I do love the song “Loser Baby” mostly because Keith Davis but it was a good message on Angel and Husk’s situation.
This is why most people find it very difficult nowadays to voice their own opinions because they would either be a target of hate or brush aside like it was nothing.
@@damonlam9145 pretty much and people can feel upset by this scene or feel heard but what Angel Dust goes though is very real and maybe Angel will learn how to heal in the end of the series.
Seriously. I've shelled up completely in online spaces, had a friend go down the militant puritanism path and demand I cut off contact with the rest of my friends because they were 'proshippers'. It's bewildering.
A lot of the people who claimed to care for sexual assault survivors tend to only care about survivors if it’s under a specific context. Namely, if we say the right things. The moment we don’t say what they think we should say, they immediately turn on us.
Everyone reacts to trauma SO differently. Some people become scared of sex and vehemently sex-negative and some people become (or at least put on the facade of) hyper-sexuality as a way to reclaim their voice. It's like when Rihanna put out the song S&M. She was being criticized and told she was "to blame" for what happened, so instead of being vulnerable and asking for empathy, she clapped back and told people she can endure the pain of being in the spotlight because her haters fuel her to perform. I thought that was a very bold and powerful statement from her, and I definitely looked to her as an inspiration when I was/ am healing from SA trauma.
I think that the reason a lot of people don't get the pacing and dialog in Hazbin is that they haven't seen or analyzed much musical theater. Hazbin is structured and written much more like a play than a typical show. It's not for everyone but once you look at it like that stuff clicks more.
Yeah, this right here! I personally didn't have many issues with the pacing because the songs are communicating SO MUCH in such a short amount of time. "Respectless" epitomizes this in my opinion. Velvette doesn't have a lot of screen time in Season 1, but that song PERFECTLY encapsulates her character in 90 seconds. As someone who loves musical theater and can tell that's how the show is structured, the pacing didn't really bother me. I feel like if the show had just one or two more episodes, no one would be complaining about the pacing because the show IMO makes the most of its limited runtime.
I can honestly say this isn't true. I've analyzed quite a lot of literature at university, took two mandatory "literary analysis" classes (one for British, one for American), and honestly, this is just flat out a lack of media literacy. In other words, people are completely media-illiterate. Any media could have handled the topic with the same story as Hazbin Hotel, even with the songs either in song or poem form, and the same morons would still be complaining. It's the same type of people who call The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn an evil, racist story when one huge character arc for the main protagonist is UNLEARNING RACISM. You can use any format of media, people are just too media-illiterate to grasp a story that doesn't say every single thing in the most flat out, monotone, 100% obvious way as if it was trying to explain it to a five-year-old.
@@quantumvideoscz2052 Original commenter and I were specifically talking about the pacing. I agree with you that a lot of the criticism of Harbin Hotel's "problematic" elements stem from a lack of media literacy, but the original commenter and I were ONLY talking about the pacing of the show and why we don't think it's as big of a problem as others seem to think it is.
I think the problem is that when a song tries to convey subtlety in its messaging, it just isn't picked up on because Hazbin isn't a subtle show. It has a lot of good, maybe even clever ideas, but its so in your face and goofy that when the show treats itself seriously it throws everyone for a loop, and the songs themselves aren't that subtle either. Loser Baby is in a weird liminal space where its a good song that has a good message but has been shot in the foot because the show its a part of hates the concept of reading into themes
makes sense! the show seems to be pretty on the nose with it's content so it's easy for some people's first impression of more serious scenes to be just another edgy joke :')
That's why it's meant for adults, I'm sure. Because kids often watch something at face value while adults are more likely to read into and analyze stuff.
Regarding the Merchandise drama, I believe the main pin set people were upset at were the “angst pins” fan, which were promoted by the storyboard artist who had a thing for nonconsensual activity. What likely happened was that “a storyboard artist is promoting pins calling an abusive relationship ‘angsty’” likely devolved into “HAZBIN is SELLING pins making light of an abusive relationship” That being said you COULD argue Vivzie supported it since she promoted them and said they looked awesome, but it reads waaay more like she was talking about the quality of the artwork and not its content. I think it also doesn’t help that another homosexual male relationship in the series had been depicted as being fairly unhealthy as well, so a lot of people thought Angel Dust’s situation was being poorly done due to how weirdly Stolas and Blitzo’s relationship is handled
I feel like people on Twitter have a dangerous lack of ability separating fiction from reality and it’s scary to see, having a thing for dark kinks in no way aligns with wanting those dark things to happen in reality, or negates your ability to tackle those dark things in a serious tone outside of the kink
@@kawaiinekozombie1347 I do 100% agree with you, but I can also see why promoting a pin set that has your characters trapped in controlling and abusive situations the "angst pin set" can rub people the wrong way
@@NoGoodClownWhore Thank you for the correction! Honestly the way I saw it censored the username of the original post it was retweeting so I believed it was the artist posting the pin information. I'll update the OG post with the correct information.
I do think that a lot of vivziepop works suffers from not knowing what is supposed to be a joke and what shouldn't, like they want tackle s/a on a more serious approach and how it breaks victims both mentally and physically, but then 1 episode later they are doing a s/a joke like nothing happened. But yes the overall twitter mob mentality, wich nobody has theit critical thinking to judge something on their own is really harmful
@@cheery_cherrys literally , like this scene was just 1 episode apart from the Angel Dust one, like the writers really seems to not be able to decide which topic should be treated seriously and what's going to be a dark joke
@@cheery_cherrys i thought the joke was funny too, tho the episode they decided to put in and how they executed...like you just showed how s/a is really harmful so you shouldn't joke about it this early
Honestly, my biggest gripe with the series is that SA/SH is kinda used as a gag in episode 6. It felt like fucking whiplash to see Angel’s situation be taken seriously & done (imo) in a thoughtful way, then for Sir Pentious being dragged into a room against his will be played for laughs.
I didnt react because my brain kind of filled in a justification: « oh there’s no way they would treat it as a joke if something bad actually happened so Pentious escaped without harm » but it is weird.
@@Krantzingoing I get that, but like...even still, it is kinda fucked that they implied it got that far. Especially since there was a prime opportunity for an actual bit that, if not funny, at least doesn’t play SA for giggles (like, instead of the crowd cheering for a third time, there's cricket noises, or Pentious DOES get a number of eager suitors & he has to awkwardly turn them down, wasting his time with Cherri).
Hazbin Hotel & Helluva Boss’s reception online is so unbelievably polarizing Usually it’s the fandom that’s toxic most of the time No, it’s the Hatedom this time around Brax the peps you encountered that were getting on your case that night were a very loud vocal group of people that absolutely despise Viv and want to destroy everything she has to her name They weren’t using media literacy skills? Yeah, probably because they didn’t have the care or respect to with the agenda they’re trying to push
The fandom is WAY too intense, and the show isn't even like good, it has tons of flaws so when people try to sell it to you like THE NEW AGE OF ANIMATION, of course people are gonna have even more negative feelings about it
"Loser, Baby" reminds me of "Schadenfreude" from Avenue Q so freaking much, I might even make an AMV for it someday. What's funny about this to me is that "Schadenfreude" is far less supportive than "Loser, Baby", but the energy is essentially the same, and it's pretty absurd that people are taking "Loser, Baby" so literally when it's clearly an incredibly supportive song.
Nope. Nope. I'm a SA survivor. A SW. A DV survivor. Attempted murder at the hands of a partner. This episode made me cry. So hard. So long. I felt seen. And everyone who has a problem with that can use their own personal fucking feelings to hate on it. They can't use ME to criticize it because any ego so insanely large it feels it can speak for an entire demographic can choke on it and literally experience their tongue rotting out of their face.
When I watched the pilot, I knew Angel would have more depth than everyone else. There was one point where Angel and Charlie were the only characters in a room, and Charlie was dejected. For a brief moment, Angel's smile disappears, and he reaches towards Charlie's shoulder in the hopes of comforting her...only to quickly retract it, resume his smile, and be snarky again. You could tell he _wanted_ to comfort her, but didn't know how. Learning his history, he knows what it's like to feel this low, but he doesn't know how to comfort others because no one was there to comfort him.
Part of what makes me disturbed about the constant discourse that Hazbin Hotel "fetishizes abuse" is that the people making it cannot know whether the people who worked on the show have been abused or not. I've been impressed by the complex and nuanced portrayal of abuse of all sorts in the show, it strikes me as being written by people who are informed on the topic and possibly even experienced abuse themselves. Every time people accuse the show of "fetishizing abuse" I think about that time Lindsay Ellis wrote "The Rape Rap" after her own sexual assault as a form of humorous catharsis to process her trauma, and then it was published without her consent and people wanted her crucified for writing it. I'm very afraid these haters will end up re-traumatizing actual abuse victims who will be forced to tell their abuse stories to get the harassment to stop.
This is the one that I can't get out of my head, because a significant number of the people I know who are into consensual non consent like it BECAUSE they've gone through some form of SA. It lets them recontextualize and reclaim that horror in a scenario where they have complete control.
Spoilers for the latest Hazbin episodes if you haven’t seen them. I felt the joke about Sir Pentious getting r*ped was super awkward and felt out of place in a show that wants to take SA seriously as a topic. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Spoilers for the latest Hazbin episodes if you haven’t seen them. Everything about Sera’s decision to purge hell is justified by the behavior of the demons in hell as they’ve had their chance and still continue to cause problems. Sera is portrayed in this really bad light when Charlie showed know tangible evidence of a soul in hell being redeemed
Except you can and you're obviously too stupid or too sensitive to understand that very easy to understand concept thats been going on through literal life since the dawn of time.
Making dark humor and tackling serious subject is like juggling with one thousand torch on fire, it’s super difficult and can pretty easily backfire on you
Yeah, this was so weird. And the writers do shit like that constantly. For example, in helluva boss there is a running gag where blitzo and Luna call Moxxie fat. To the point where Moxxie eventually becomes insecure about his weight, something the show wants us to find funny. But in the latest episode, Mammon makes a comment about Fizzarollis' weight and the show wants us to take this very seriously and see it as a sign that Mammon is being abusive. This seems to be a very annoying pattern
I am a SA survivor. SA abusers are not all knowing, they are not all confident, they are not all serious, they are not all smart. SA abusers are normal people who find themselves or put themselves knowingly in a situation where they can benefit from another person sexually without taking the others person's feelings safety or autonomy into account. While I'm not a SA survivor that copes the same way Angel does, the relationship between Angel and Valentino feels very real, and I can relate to it personally. I personally loved the song, and the interactions because It made me feel seen. It made me feel like I'm justified in my trauma; because again; not all SA abusers are Smart confident or all knowing. My SA abuser certainly was not any of those things. He was a easily tricked, sad, depressed man, who thought abuse was the only way to keep me, and was constantly creating situations or taking advantage of situations in where he was the only one I could turn to. People who can't handle seeing or are disagreeing about the relationship or the song are 100% valid they aren't 'snowflakes' for not viewing or engaging with it, people will get triggered by different things and that's 100% valid and honestly healthy to separate yourself from it if you don't like or it triggers you. However discounting the people who do see it as a good representation and harassing other people over it is not valid it is not ok and everyone who has been doing so needs to take a long look at themselves I like viv I think she is doing great work and feel she is genuinely trying, but I also feel like she really really needs to think about her posts more. The only thing I can "agree" with the "twitter mob" is viv isn't handling the situation well, the edgy jokes about the darker subject matter is honestly uncalled for insensitive and makes me uncomfortable and worried about how well its gonna be handled in the future.
I am ok now I’d think. I was very lucky, he had to move away for a couple months and I took that opportunity to break it off. Separating from my SA abuser was one of the hardest things I think I ever had to do I was terrified that he’d come back like he said he would. I still have bad day’s thinking I’m going to open my front door and see him waiting there on the street for me again to drag me to his stupid car, days where I’m terrified to leave my house or go to the places around my town, but I know he can’t hurt me anymore, so I go anyway. The fear and trauma doesn’t completely go away, but it doesn’t completely control me anymore and honestly that’s all I could ask for. I had friends at the time, but the ones that stuck around and the new ones I’ve made understand me and didn’t give up on talking to me, and I now have a fiancé that loves and respects me and I respect and love them so very much. While life still isn’t great mentally or physically right now, it’s not because of the people around me, I’m not being abused anymore. I think I’m the happiest I’ve been in a long time. It gets better. \(^-^)/
This is really interesting, because some people are arguing the same about the character Astarion from Baldur's Gate 3, arguing that his flirtatiousness/hypersexuality is a "damaging," "inaccurate," or "fetishistic" portrayal of male SA/abuse survivors' experiences. Astarion was written SO well and responds in a very common way that male survivors do, and the people criticizing or arguing that the depiction is fetishistic genuinely don't know what they're talking about and are speaking baselessly. Really good explanation and take.
As I understand it I think people also percieve it that way because they hear his voice and assume that means he's a romanticized victim. I mean his voice IS attractive but he does it intentionally. becuase as mentioned, he's responding and acting in a way that truly happens for some survivors. not everyone's experiences are going to be the same. and as far as I understand as asterion interacts with your character, and if you begin a relationship with him, from what I understood, when he confesses, its a sign he's healing because he's been shown a true relationship. or something of that ilk. I still need to play for myself, I've just seen gamep;lay and most of asterion's dialogue and scenes and story
@@Its_Asteria pretty spot on! and another interesting thing to note is that if you do go down the romance path with him, he outright tells your character that he isn't comfortable having sex with you-- not because he doesn't want to, but because for so long it's been something he did without being able to properly consent to it, and he feels *icky* just participating in the action at all. If you pressure him into sleeping with you, he breaks up with you and tells you you violated him. It's incredibly heartbreaking, but a really good exploration of the healing process (and the reality that some people can be super, duper shitty and harmful to survivors).
This is why most people find it very difficult nowadays to voice their own opinions because they would either be a target of hate or brush aside like it was nothing.
i'm an abuse victim who plans on telling their own story through fiction in a way that's kinda similar to masquerade, and god is it frustrating feeling like all of this is a preview of the kind of shit i'm gonna have to deal with lol
Yup. First it was "you can't tell x story if you aren't x", and that was a slippery slope to "you can ONLY tell x story the way the mob demands". It's an 18+ show for crying out loud, nobody who doesn't know better will be watching it.
this but instead it’s how my character design looks a lot like vivzies but she got endless hate for giving too many characters bowties 😭😭😭 i think i’ll just keep them as ocs atp damn
Same here like 😭 a lot of the shit I went through have been wedged into romance stories and I've seen fangirls go "THAT'S SO SEXY I WANT THAT TO HAPPEN TO ME" like no you don't??? Lmao I certainly didn't!
Imma be frank with you, this is 100% what you're gonna get hit with. It sucks immensely, of course, but it is inevitable. People lack any sort of media literacy these days.
the sequence with Poison in the show was incredibly unsettling due to the juxtaposition of the imagery of the mask and dissociation vs the flashes of fear and despair when it slips, all to this cheery pop style song which has harrowing lyrics if you listen to them. and thats the damned point. its a song that depicts the abuse he suffers and the coping mechanism he has to live with his reality. its an amazing piece of media because it does such a good job unsettling the viewer.
The amount of lacking media literacy I see now that I'm more plugged into the internet is just breaking my brain. I literally this morning read/re-read something that essentially missed the basic concept of "What you like or write in fiction doesn't indicate your moral feelings in reality" and also over-exaggerated the situation, though that second one is from me using my own judgment of the context to compare, so I could be wrong. It was, fittingly enough, about _Helluva Boss_ , _Hazbin's_ sister show. I love this video!! The Twitter nonsense this is covering is WAY worse though, thinking that _that_ scene is "fetishizing" abuse?!!! Are people that say this literally out of their minds?!!!
The only thing that I could see as "victim blaming" is the lyrics "what's the worst part of this hell? I can only blame myself" which this song is from angel's perspective and as a victim of SA, we tend to blame ourselves no matter the situation until years later when we can see clearly. And even then I kinda blame myself
The problem is, victims of abuse definitely tend to blame themselves. Like, hell, I'd been abused by a narcissist and I still blame myself for it sometime.
My friend told me before I watched that episode that there is mentions of SA in it, and knew that I had a lot of triggers for this topic (as someone who experienced it sadly). But holy shit... I think Husk's song healed me in a level no medicine or therapist could do before, Poison became my absolute favourite because of its honest thoughts of what someone in a situation like Angel's would feel, and I could do a whole analyzing for both songs. But to put it short: Poison was the song that shows how someone who endures such events copes in unhealthy ways, and Looser Baby was the one that told you into your face that yeah...life can be miserable, but Im not alone and can find people who can relate and understand the pain, and that is a welcoming thought. Sometimes even I go overboard with the negative thoughts, but thats when I need people to tell me that Im in a low point and help me stand up. And thats what Husk did for Angel. He didnt feed into a lie that things are okey, because theyre not. He instead told Angel the truth, helped him open up, then helped him stand up and let it all out. People twitter are just causing drama for no reason once again
Yeah honestly I feel the same! Loser is def my fav and poison just hit so home in such an intensely personal way. I told my bf that poison says everything I don't tell you about my abuse. And as someone who's been through so much therapy and so much shit, loser baby is literally my song haha. I'm glad you found those songs to be just as impactful, especially the one about owning it and becoming better!
exactly i could put myself in angels shoes fact i basically was in angels shoes just last year and am now healing so it felt so good to see the amazing representation that episode gave, even if it did make me relapse, not that its a bad thing that it did but just showing the accuracy of the events and situations portrayed that angel went through and is still going through.
I saw someone once say, that art is supposed to make the comfortable feel uncomfortable, and the uncomfortable feel comfort, or smth similar. I guess episode 4 is that kind of art.
I'm an SA survivor, and I honestly loved Poison, even though I broke down sobbing at the end of it. It hits a little too close to home for me, and words cannot express how thankful I am to have seen it. My fiance had to pause for a bit right after so I could just cry in his arms. On the other hand, Loser, Baby was exactly what I needed to hear after that meltdown. It's upbeat, playful, warm, and just...friendly. Especially the self-depracating aspect. Idk if I'm gonna be able to listen to Poison again outside of the show, but Loser, Baby has been stuck in my head ever since the episode dropped. I love them both so much, but they're different kinds of love.
its wild to me that people are unable to understand the message conveyed in Addict and Poison. It shows that many people dont know, dont understand, or refuse to understand that those are abused often put on a mask of being fine and yet are screaming on top of their lungs for help, but they look and sound like they're having a great life. The whole scene of Angel dancing in front of the monitors and he's yanked by the arm and pulled off screen by Valentino before the Angel on the monitor is in center view with a glamorous celebrity smile who blows a kiss with glitter and stars, is what is happening. The audience that Valentino sells to sees this cocky, hypersexual, and promiscuous, spider baby, when off screen he's being pulled and tossed around. The people who say that Addict and Poison is fetishtizing Angel's SA, are all falling into exactly what an abuser like Valentino wants to sell. The idea of glamor and a good time. They're falling for the Angel on the screen who blew them a kiss. They are only seeing and hearing what he, the abuser wants them to see and hear, he disguises Angel's distressed lyrics and cries for help through bright lights, glitz, glam, and a catchy pop song beat. You only hear the breaks in Angel's voice and distress in the last 13 or so seconds in the song when all the main melody with the loud instrumentals and percussion is gone, and all you got is the quiet harmony instrumentals of the song. And the main lyrics even says "I've gotten so good at being untrue. I've got so good at telling you what you wanna hear." These lyrics are not just talking about Valentino, but also people who refuse to see him anything other than the Pron Star Angel Dust and not Anthony.
So fun story: I myself am a SA survivor and felt incredibly seen by how they depicted Angel’s abuse, particularly the line about if he destroys himself enough, maybe Val would let him go. I felt so seen I paused the show and cried for like 10 straight minutes. I mentioned this on tumblr, and I had some douchebag DM me accusing me of lying and that I was secretly getting off to the Poison scene.
Honestly, having personal experience with the topic being discussed, i think its bloody ridiculous how people pitchfork anyone who disagrees with them nowadays. SA isnt a twitter topic to throw around and quote tweet insults at people. Its something that needs nuiance, civility and braincells. Goddamn. I personally resonated with the poison scene incredibly, knowing what its like to bury that stuff under distractions and masks. Ive also been told "you dont act like an SA survivor". And it makes you think how one is *supposed* to act then? Its shallow minded, insulting, and ignorant. Those people really need to stop talking and start listening for once. (Sorry for the rant, i enjoy hazbin hotel and this specific twitter topic made me beyond upset.)
SA survivor here. Angel is such a good character to me. Other characters have had awful things happen before, and some more tastefully explored the topic than others, but I enjoy the raw portrayal of what happened and what continues to happen to him. Not the context of course it definitely makes me relive some things I'd rather not, but I do enjoy how they explore the subject matter. To pull punches in a conversation as heavy as having your personhood taken away from you not in part, but in full, is to take away that person's personhood once again, neglecting the care they need, and making the assumption that the people who go through one of the most heinous acts a human can commit want to be silent. I fucking adore Angel as a character because no matter how big we as victims talk, we are still victims, and it's never as easy as walking away. The people who haven't gone through it who think it's "uncomfy" clearly haven't stopped to think about how it was for the people who had to suffer it. Thank you JS for bringing light to this, it genuinely means a lot. P.S: Twitter can kindly fuck off and burn.
I actually understood Husk was saying but didn’t enjoy the approach to the song, but honestly I completely see both sides to the topic (note I’m a survivor myself), I cannot criticize victims who weren’t offended and actually identified with Husk’s song. With that said, I think Vivziepop giving Angel Dust’s abuse scenes to someone who thinks his sexual trauma is sexy (and even references one of their comics for their “rape ship”) was a bad move. I think making sex jokes about his music video was a bad move. I think blocking survivors and accusing them of “ignoring SA victims” when many of the people who are critiquing her were ALSO victims was a bad move. I think neglecting to put a sexual assault trigger warning until a week after it aired was a bad move (although I blame Amazon more for this). I think her making a rape joke with Pentious in her more recent episode while insisting she takes sexual assault seriously was a bad move. Honestly I think if Viv just ignored the criticism and allowed the episode to drop instead of snapping at her critics both on twitter and threads, she’d come out more reasonable.
Its a show about hell that includes sinners from every branch including murderers if youre triggered why watch it ? People look way to far into it its just a show for entertainment purposes. i highly doubt that vivziepop and or amazon did these things to deliver a bad message on purpose.
@@doesfireburn8532the problem isn’t the content itself but how self righteous Viv acts on Twitter claiming she isn’t trivialising SA while making it the punchline for multiple jokes. Once you include SA in a story and expect the audience to take it seriously you lose the right to make ANY jokes about it. It’s completely tone deaf. “It’s hell!” isn’t an excuse for all of the shoddy writing that led to this point.
@@doesfireburn8532 you again missed it, its not the content its how vivzie wants it to be taken seriously then immediately makes jokes about it, pick one lane or the other but you cant have both
Tbh im an SA survivor too but the "Poison" sequence was too much for me to handle. Im perfectly aware of how hypersexuality is a common coping mechanism, and I can accept that, even if its not what I use. I think the bigger problem here is that Viv tends to be extremely tone deaf in the way SA is depicted on this show and Helluva Boss as a whole. I mean... two episodes after Masquerade, there's a joke implying Sir Pentious is SA'd...
That’s my exact problem as well. Like Viv wants to tackle mature subjects like abuse but also wants to use abuse as a joke when it’s convenient. I don’t think Viv is purposely trying to disrespect abuse victims, but she needs someone to point out how uneasy it makes people when you make abuse jokes in a show that violently depicts that very abuse.
Two things can exist at once you know. Making an extremely mild joke with that Sir Pentious scene (that isnt even about SA, its about him awkwardly flirting and backfiring) doesn't automatically trivialize the times the topic is taken seriously. That argument will only ever work in cases where Angel is made a tasteless joke out of since he's the character that actually deals with a serious depiction of SA, like Viv's bad tweet promoting Poison.
@@xaiiphon This. It makes me sad seeing people hating one of the funniest jokes of this show with literal textbook buildup and such perfect payoff because they can't differentiate the tone between two different scenes of two characters. They do this same thing with the Moxie joke at the beginning of Spring Breakdown and it also is unfair.
@@bassbot1286 I feel more context is needed otherwise your statement isn't valid. because you're making a claim that she romanticizes it without clarifying where you find that information and how it proves that.
The funniest thing is in that thread I saw someone called you a Viv Stan, that is really funny given your history with her like not even 2 weeks earlier but also in that tread it was a review that I would not call praising
I am an SA survivor, and I thank you for making a video. The amount of stuff I have heard about how this is 'glorifying' or 'romanticizing' has made me so angry. I have been a fan of this show for years, it helped me through that exact trauma I mentioned. With Loser, baby I showed my own therapist it and she said it has good intentions. She explained it me like how you did, it is amazing how, DEAD media literacy is with Hazbin Hotel. It really hurts me since this show is such a comfort thing for me and so many others. The amount of people who have also shut down SA victims who are Hazbin fans is devastating. I have seen people get threats for just watching the show who are victims. This video is a wonderful, well done and thank you for your support to victims
I'm sorry you had rhis experience. The hazbin fandom (includes me) is messy and sensitive, this is caused by the show's large hatedom which is known for making up drama (like the merch stuff), and spam dming people animal gore vidoes. It's bad, especially on twitter, hope you watch and enjoy the finale.
@@kimifw58 its a common thing for people to do towards groups they hate. it happened to dream fans that weren't the same as stans, it happened to fans of security breach/SB ruin dlc when a popular streamer said it was boring and another person told him he's wrong, two separate opinions, and said streamer's fanbase went after this other person with sending gore videos and threats. it wasn't very pretty. its really hypocritical when you think about it too.
Also to be fair in regards to the pacing and tone, this series was originally written to be 14 episodes longer. Part of why it took so long for the show to be released was that they had to condense 22 episodes down to 8 and make sure it still hit all the plot points needed for the season 2 story board.
I personally have been putting off watching Hazbin just for this episode as a survivor myself but I’ve heard there’s really no warning before the episode starts and that makes me extremely nervous and the other thing that makes me uncomfortable is the artist who storyboarded it along with viv joking about it that’s totally not ok at all :/ Other then those things I really do want to watch the show since I’ve been following it for a long time so if anyone has the time slots it starts and ends I will gladly watch the show but until then I’m avoiding it completely
If you want to skip the entire section of ep 4 including Val beating Angle Dust, Charlie being kicked out, and the POISON music section, it's 7:31 to 11:46
i got you, it’s episode 4(the episode now has a tw at the beginning), the scenes start at 7:31 and end at 11:52 in episode 8, angel faces valentino again and he stands up to him this time but is still hurt, there interaction begins at 15:44 and ends at 16:54 hope this helps!
I'm an SA survivor (25 now, 19 when it happened) and I'm actually thankful for episode 4. I saw a lot of myself and my situation in Angel, and it made me realize that I'm not as okay as i thought I was, and that I've been putting on an act to cope in the same way Angel does. It actually helped me talk with a therapist about what happened to me, which is something I never thought I'd be brave enough to do until now.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
I've heard some people say that Valentino being portrayed as less dangerous and initimidating outside Angel's perspective actually makes sense, as abusers actually can look stupid and unthreatening to those who aren't their victims and it plays into that beyond his abuse Valentino is an entitled, stupid fuck up who isn't a danger to Charlie and most of the rest of the Hotel.
all this to say he can be scary AND a joke, it just depends on the context.
Also makes sense that he’s portrayed as less dangerous around Vox, who is his colleague and equal and whom Valentino ACTUALLY respects
Incompetent, laughably pathetic abusers are more the norm than the exception. Just think of every middle management horror story ever.
Tbh in my experience, abusers are usually dumbass deadbeats. They need to put someone else down to feel good about themselves, bc they’re garbage.
Yeah my abuser came off to everyone else as just a dumb fuck who needed to be held by the hand. It feels so invalidating when no one else sees the threat. When your abuser is seen as a joke, it feels like the joke is on you
And for that I really like Valentino’s portrayal because it mimics how shit can really feel
exactly. i like that its done that way because abusers aren’t actually too smart or intimidating outside of their abuse. there isn’t anything special about them, and they deliberately use mental, physical, or emotional abuse to keep their victims down and from breaking away because otherwise there isnt anything that would keep their victims close. in reality abusers are weak.
I hate how twitter says "we need to bring attention to sexual abuse and similar crimes." but then when a show or movie does literally that all the sudden it is a bad thing. In my opinion no problem ever gets fixed if you ignore it. I also hate how murder and literal torture is ok to use as a narrative device but there are things that are "too far".
They want to collect on the high of feeling righteous, not actually getting dirty with reality.
@@Peagaporto I agree with that 100% like Fr they need to chill out and let the artists do their job.
had to screenshot what you just said cus they were straight up FACTS bruh
Yet Twitter still hasn't got a handle on its CP problem.
YES YES YES. FICTIONAL MURDER IS "ALRIGHT" BUT FICTIONAL (LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE) IS THE DEVIL'S WORK AND MUST BE CONDEMNED ALWAYS.
Tuca and Bertie had a full series arc about this.
Bertie was SA’d as a child and had a boss who harrassed her, and she has fantasies about it. They have an episode with a therapist explaining it is totally normal for victims to recontextualise their abuse in a way which gives them control. Poison is a part fantasy sequence, I mean he says he is disassociating at one point.
EXACTLY I honestly think that people on Twitter are just too privileged to see the real issue here hence why scenarios like this never get taken seriously and people just continue to suffer.
@@youropinionsareshitandsoar1954 Not only are most of them too privileged. Most of them have little to no actual really bad experiences. Compare much of what they say on many "mental health" topics and those who actually experienced them. You'll usually find a difference.
Oooh I love to see discussion on Tuca and Bertie here. That show is very underrated imo
Not only that, but it takes place after Valentino states that they are filming *all night* so every change of scene we see outside of the stage is just one night before he returns to the hotel and tries to act as if nothing happened after literally breaking down on his own room, locking himself up as he can't take anymore. It's....really messed up if you think about it.
I genuinely would love to see a bunch of terminally online twitter users react to shows like Law and Order: SVU. If they think that portrayal of Angel Dust was bad, their heads would absolutely roll watching that show.
Media literacy is so far past dead that some people seem to be mad about villains doing bad things in general
you cant really compare SA to "Doing bad things in general"
@@thecarwas_taken9073
I don't think they were ..making that association. I believe they just mean that in even dumber situations, people have gotten mad for villains for doing typical villain debauchery like stealing, lying etc; I have seen that before.
@@thecarwas_taken9073 ah another case of media illiteracy
@@thecarwas_taken9073 you just proved their point.
@@thecarwas_taken9073Except SA IS a bad thing to do. Again, villains do bad things. Even in the real world, there are people who do bad things simply because they like doing bad things. For example, William H. Spengler Jr. He killed his sister, set her house on fire, and ambushed the firefighters that responded because he wanted to burn down as much of his neighborhood as possible and he liked killing people. He made no attempt to justify what he did, just flat-out admitted that he liked killing people in a letter that was found by the police.
Your first mistake was assuming that people on Twitter are capable of critical thinking and basic common sense
Genuine question,
What do you mean, specifically, by critical thinking?
@@kingofcards9 They're notorious for jumping the gun when forming opinions and judgments instead of doing surface level research
@@kingofcards9 I exaggerated a little since he brings up genuine reasons as to why that may be in the video, but that's how they are for the most part
@@emoryweatherspoon2013 You aren't wrong. Even worse some are very prone to making victims where there aren't any or label people abusers when they aren't the one doing it. To the point that some with that mentality will even try to bully non-victims with completely consentual encounters that the encounters were anything but consentual, specially if there is anything at all that can't be labeled as completely and absolutely vanilla about the encounter.
It makes me wonder, considering it's twitter and how they will create many of the "monsters" they attack, if the supposed fetishism this person has isn't coming from this very Scene itself. Creating a bit of a paradox of them being called out for having this fetish and then storyboarding the scene but this scene, and how certain types choose to interpret it is the very basis for that claim of something that they supposedly had before that particular scene. (i.e. they created the scenes because of their fetish but they only have this fetish because of these specific scenes.)
@@emoryweatherspoon2013 oh, I know that, I mean what exactly is, specifically, critical thinking?
My bad.
The depiction of Valentino's abuse of Angel is shocking, but it isn't remotely close to glorifying or justifying it. Valentino has so far been portrayed without any positive attributes whatsoever; he isn't depicted as a "fun" villain like Vox or Alastor but as a complete piece of shit.
he's basically an example of why this is 'hell' and how not every sinner is 'fun'
One of his first introductions in the series proper is him throwing a tantrum and ripping someone to shreds. And Vox even says this is typical behavior
Yep the closest they come is making him comedic when bad things happen to him, which I think is fine he's such a heavy concept that a little bit of levity at his expense is actually appreciated
His first episode had him be played off as a joke sooo
Keep in mind that villains are necessary for a story too. In real life, we do not need 'villains', we do not need bad people. But in fiction, we do. For a proper story, we always need an antagonistic force wether it is justified or not. That is why Val is necessary for story, for Angel Dust's story. In order for him to have a character arc, he needs obstacles, which is where Val comes along.
Do I like Val? Absolutely not. Do I believe his actions are justified or anything? Hell no! Ew. But is he necessary for the fictional story, and Angel Dust's arc? Yes.
An abuse survivor could literally tell people exactly what happened to them and how it affected them and twitter would tell them that they’re fetishizing and glorifying abuse.
It's almost as if they're projecting.
I agree because if u don't experience it you don't understand I prefer not going to to deep with my experience I'm in the healing process and it was a long time
I legit went through a similar thing as Angel and I never thought something like that would be portrayed accurately
Its because the actual SA survivors(or at peast 90% of us) that are saying its fine, and people that have no business even watching this show(minors) that are saying its bad...
That's the thing. Survivor doesn't exist in Twitter's dictionary. Everything has to be about victimhood.
Poison is very similar to the song All You Wanna Do from Six the Musical. Both use pop music and flashy aesthetics to express the state of mind/environment the singer is in, while also communicating the toxicity, danger, and anguish their abuse creates. However, I haven't seen AYWD be misinterpreted anywhere near as much as Poison, despite Six also having a very young fanbase- probably because Six doesn't have a massive pre-existing hatedom.
And the way that the American vs British version of the song handles the "realization" is one of the biggest pluses for me. The British one the singer is trying to keep their brave face but is obviously disturbed by it. In the American one, she has an open breakdown. Both showing different reactions and both are valid.
ngl Idol from Oshi No Ko isnt quite about sexaul abuse but Poison honesty reminds me of it with the whole switching between how the singer is actually feeling how the pretend to feel
YES. Thank you for saying this.
Yeah, the pre-existing hate-dom is probably a big factor here. This show has been anticipated since 2020, so there were definitely a lot of people who were queued up and ready to criticize anything and everything the moment the episodes dropped.
I looove all you wanna do how have I never thought this before?
as a survivor I feel we need this shit in media and its supposed to make people uncomfortable. cause if it's not hitting people in the face then it's gets swept under the rug and it's easier to claim ignorance and downplay exactly how traumatizing this shit is.
I'm lucky enough to have not experience that but i agree, i think that if you're protraying a taboo uncomfortable topic it shouldn't hold back being uncomfortable
@roze2796
I _really _*_really_* hope I'm not diminishing your statement when I'm saying this, but I'm still shocked that this wasn't obvious to them. I'm sorry you had to deal with that, too...
THIS!!! ^^^^
I experienced abuse but not SA but yeah I absolutely agree
it's kind of the issue, a lot of people just wanted a swear filled show that tries to show moral people as bigots and reckless people as misunderstood, which is true sometimes as some are proud in their obedience and others didn’t ask for bondage, but the way people ignore the reality of the pain and issues and consequences of peoples actions as well the abuse in the porn industry, it's confronting their own wrong desires, and they don't want that. Sad, sorry you all went through this. Sorry. I don’t support the idea of Christians watching the show, but for what I’ve seen there are real and good messages in it.
As a victim of extremely violent SA along with conversion therapy I dont understand why we always have t0 be the perfect little image of a victim. We cant have weird kinks, we can't be sexual, we have to be sad and depressed, and we have to be suicidal. If we aren't those things we become increasingly scrutinized by people including the very people who claim to support us. I've had people make fun of the abuse I went through as a kid purely because I think Angel Dust is an alright depiction into how some victims are. I've noticed that, despite what people say, they only care about us if we act exactly how they want and think we should. If we don't what happened to us becomes a joke, a thing to target. Its so fucked.
I wish people would actually support victims instead of supporting only the 'right' ones.
the stupid thing is that angel dussys behaviour is actually a logical reaction to his treatment and theres so many ways people cope with trauma and its isnt just one thing
Ha ha us Autists are right there with you, my friend. We're either too traumatised or not traumatised enough, and too weird or not weird enough. Can't win, you either fit the perfect media depiction of autism or you're getting the boot from all directions.
They only want to uplift and support “the perfect victim”. But because there is no perfect victim, they end up supporting very very few victims. Seems to me that people like that are not helping ANYONE from an altruistic perspective, but rather a self-serving one… they want to take credit for the healing and growth of their chosen “perfect victim”. They want to appear like they’ve successfully helped, without doing any of the hard work. It is easier to post a hashtag after all…
@@Super_Grover_ Virtue signalling all over again, aye.
But if you're too perfect, you get accused of faking it.
Back when I was working at McDonald's as a teenager, my manager would constantly make rape jokes, trauma dump and just casually bring up how she was raped and molested as a child and one day I was sick of it and told her to stop that s*** and it made me uncomfortable (as a SA victume myself) and she broke down and cried and she said it makes her just as uncomfortable but that's how she copes and she doesn't know any other way she told me how it kept her up at night and sometimes it crosses her mind out of nowhere and temporarily paralyzes her and the only way to snap out of it is to laugh about it so she starts making jokes after that every time she made a joke about it I just gave her a hug and understood.
Im sending hugs to both of you
@@mtayhw thank you, you have a heart of gold
I'm so sorry for both of you, no one deserves that
Kudos to you for having the courage to accept her coping mechanism. Honestly, were I in your place I'd have insisted on placing some boundaries if I had to deal with someone making jokes about my traumas, because of a trigger risk
my god. this is literally the same psychological concept that makes kid survivors of abuse victimize their young siblings. its terrifying
Terrible Writing Advice made a video on media literacy and one of the points he brought up was literally exactly this: “If a show or piece of media has a bad thing in it, then that obviously means it’s endorsing the bad thing! The negative framing of the bad thing? The clearly bad guys doing the bad thing? The weight of the effect that the bad thing has on an individual or community afterwards? Forget all that, simply presenting the bad thing means that the show is actively endorsing and is the moral equivalent of doing the bad thing!”
Terrible Writing Advice is the only writing advice I trust
Reminds me of how they're taking away the sexist aspect of Sokka's character, because CLEARLY making a main character have a flaw he eventually overcomes means the show is DEFINITELY endorsing it. Kill me. Y'all ever notice the sheer lack of nuance in most media these days? Like, we used to have to analyze the color of curtains.
@@randompromises1038 Hell, you can't even speak to nuances in real life without someone calling you an "Istaphobe" because how dare someone want to discuss a topic that has nuance and is complicated.
I got called racist because I said that I had a hard time understanding a customer who had a super thick accent, never mind that I'm hard of hearing, so I felt super bad for asking them five times to repeat what they said and I'm sure the customer was also embarrassed for needing to repeat themselves and being unable to comunicate.
With this sarcasm I can only guess it’s from TWA
I love that channel!
To be fair twitter mobs arent particularly known for their cognitive skills
Or being clean
@@ManerConyemasamen
Or intelligence, or morals, or sense of humor, or anything resembling a good ceo
True.
Twitter is nothing short of a cesspool of people pretending to be tolerant and open but no, it’s their way or the highway and it ducks.
*Artwork reflecting trauma often gets misinterpreted as fetishization because there's an inherent vulnerability and self expression necessary most only associate with sexuality.*
at the end of the day, husks approach made Angel feel better. if he wanted sunshine and "its all gonna be ok" that's Charlie's schtick. Sometimes you just need to know you're not alone even if they don't 100% understand what you're going through. I loved Angel's song, it made me feel grief and fear and sorrow for his forced tolerance of his own abuse. I loved husk's song, it was empathetic and raw and even if he didn't 100% know Angel's treatment, the lyrics mostly reflect his own as an Olive branch.
There's tons of criticisms one can give the shows pacing, writing and development, but these scenes were diligently focused on and it shows.
Husk's song can be summarised "yeah, you are going through some shit but hey, so am I, you don't have to go through all of it alone" or something like that I think :)
Most people aren’t upset abt that, they’re upset that an actual rape fetishist was storyboarding this scene.
I'd watch the video, I agree with the sentiments Braxton puts out generally. While I don't agree that person shouldve been part of the team, the end product is what we are critiquing @@S0urmf420
@@S0urmf420 THIS.
@@S0urmf420okay and? The work itself wasn't fetishizing, and what say do you have about how a storyboarder gets their rocks off? Nearly half of all women have had a rape fantasy at some point, and guess what? Survivors do it too. Survivors aren't so damaged they just suddenly don't have kinks. And don't give me the crap about "unhealthy coping mechanisms" because a lot of folks have their kinks before ever experiencing real life trauma, and plenty retain their kinks because guess what?
Fantasy is actually different from reality. Shocking right? If you're upset about some guy having a kink you don't like, at least go crusade on that platform instead of implicating a large production where these scenes were repeatedly reviewed and signed off on.
If Oppenheimer discourse didn't convince you Media Literacy is a dead skill...The discussion around this show should.
Like people were legit asking "why did Oppenheimer have to have such a downer ending?" I dunno. It ELUDES me.
Ppl really dont realise its based on a historical figure, 💀
Man Hitler was such a shit antagonist, completely unbelievable.
Hopefully it doesn’t go away entirely in the future
"Are there any plans for Oppenheimer 2?"
"What the hell are you talking about?"
It's not even just purely media literacy; it's almost like a portion of the world is finding themselves increasingly unable to read beyond the surface, to read things in ways beyond black and white, and otherwise decipher similarly-layered/subtle concepts. Whatever catch-all term you're going for, I'm sure it's related in some fashion
Yet it's distressing, baffling, and a ton of other words that just anti-vibes me to my core tbh
What I love the most about "Loser baby" is the fact that Husk never grabs Angel's hand. He always extend his paw waiting for Angel to reach him. He's not the kind of helper like Charlie (I love her but) she tried to save Angel regardless If he wants her to do so or not; "Don't talk to my boss I beg you" "It's ok, I will do It becase I want to help". Husk on the other hand is like someone who's offering his help not take for granted to a person to actually take It but If they reach for him, he will be there.
That song was litteral whole conversetion about accepting yourself and others boundaries as under umbrella it was Angel who extended his hand to Husk waiting for his consent to grab it. They're embodiment of consent and self respect.
I also think Husk is more important than Charlie in Angel's reedemption path for her way is to guide Angel with every step making him feel week on his own (when he was dissapointed in himself without Charlie's approval of the way he is, praising Pentions instead) while Husk allows him to walk on his own no matter how sloppy just accompany along the way and at the moment of weakness Angel can lean on him for support.
Husk is also probably the first person since a long time or even ever to show Angel that he has a choice on his own and also showing him that as long as he is himself Husk will have no reason to push him away making Angel really secure about himself around our fellow feline.
Aaaand I also wanna add that Husk is absolutelly perfect for our spider boy with being open about his boudaries calling it out when Angel push them, teaching him how to respect them, showing the meaning of consent and actually helping him lean about things he probably never experienced on his own. As someone who lost his ability to love, is gambling, old alcoholic Husk's heart is sure in really good condition. And I hope for season 2 to show us Angel's wreaked heart being slowly healed in order to be there for Husk ^^
Tbh, I think Charlie will become more important in Angels redemption, especially since its clear that Angel cares alot about her and tries to protect her, but I think the season shows that right now, Charlie has a fairly narrow understanding of redemption and is still naive about the situations many sinners live through. Which I think is actually great, because it is easy to fall into the trapping of making a purely good and kindhearted character flawless. Charlie has issues and shortcomings not only despite being a very empathetic and kind person but specificially due to that, like a tendency to put too much good faith in others, which she did with Valentino that prevented her from really grasping the situation Angel is in, as well as a trend to strongly repress anger and aggression, which makes her prone to being stepped upon and taken advantage of.
I think people are so sensitive about Loser, Baby simply because the word Loser is used. I think a lot of people didn't really look into what it means to be a Loser, which isn't to say a person sucks but rather that they lost, and the point of the song was that it's okay to lose sometimes, it doesn't mean you have to constantly be so hard on yourself for it. It's an extremely comforting song in that way. I totally get how the language isn't for everyone but I also wish people would think about it more before jumping to conclusions. It really sucks that victims who like the show keep getting flack over this, and that yes, I agree, younger victims to struggle to understand the difference between a bad depiction and one that just makes them upset because it understandably brings up bad memories.
It was also kind of a way for Husk to tell Angel that he wasn’t alone since they could both be losers together
Yeah! It’s why it’s my favorite song In The entire show!!! It’s a song I find ABSOLUTELY relatable and comforting for what it is!!! ^^
200th like
Yeah, there’s a reason the show is 16+ and that episode in particular is 18+. The show is really not intended for teens or younger, which might explain some of the reactions. As an SA victim myself, I think they did a great job with portraying abuse. We don’t need another afterschool special approach to these things.
This song was empowering for me immediately
One of my biggest pet peeves is when a group of trauma survivors act like they speak for everyone and completely ignore how other survivors feel. The truth is that there will NEVER be a perfect way to depict things and that is ok. It is okay to not like something or think it could be handled better. Its ok not to be able to handle certain things. It is not ok to use your trauma as an excuse to attack others for having a different opinion over something or act like your feelings matter over everyone else's. I have seen it alot with this shit, be it traumacore or how people depict an oc, a group will form and react harshly, despite other survivors finding comfort in it or the person creating it being a fuckin surivor themselves. You are not the fuckin trauma police.
I KNOW RIGHT? just because i have trauma about this topic and hate it with a passion doesnt mean everyone else will too.
basically it boils down to the issue with people taking discomfort as problematic. that's why so many diss on games and art and other media that depicts things that are SUPPOSE to make you uncomfortable. andie and leyley doesn't promote incest or murdering your parents but that's what happens in the game because adam and leyley, the siblings, are both horrible human beings, so the actions they take are going to be horrible and uncomfortable. that's the point. and it seems people don't like that anymore. you can't make something uncomfortable because people react to it as if the person who created it supports that awful behavior.
I'm part of the art community as well as a few otger fandoms and communities. and the amount of people that tell you, that you can't say or do or make something that makes THEM uncomfortable is absurd.
like, sometimes things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. and if you don't like it you can ignore it by blocking it or moving on.
I don't know if I explained well but my goal was to add onto your point about how so many think their feelings define the whole and that you can't enjoy things just cause it made one group uncomfortable. like yeah it sucks some didn't find enjoyment but that's okay, there's other forms of media that will bring them enjoyment.
@@Its_Asteria No, I get it and your right. Thank you for that. Andy and leyley is another perfect example of people who can't understand that fiction is nuanced and people will put there own feelings over every one else's. Honestly this "anti" shit has gone to far and is at the point were if you go beyond anything past the fuckin care bears in levels of complexity or seriousness your some how "normalizing" or "fetishizing" something. I miss when fiction was fuckin fiction, and not something that had the power to literally influence full grown adults. The "don't like it, don't interact" practice and personal accountability needs to come back badly.
Exactly, I myself have trauma but the way I handle it is differently, and the way I feel about it being depicted here is differently. One thing I can say is that my trauma may not be as bad as angel dusts but it’s still trauma. If a show creator makes trauma in a character and says it’s trauma, it’ll be that whether you like it or not. The way they depict trauma is on them, everyone else experiences stuff differently and there should NOT be a stereotype for abuse. In lower terms, this really isn’t fetishization. If it was it would be really fucking obvious but people don’t like to use their eyes and ears and actually think, because if they actually watched the episodes instead of tweeting with their greasy little fingers they would see how it’s written.
Exactly!!! I will never not feel mad at other trauma survivors dismissing hypersexuality as a legitimate response and coping mechanism of trauma. You are not holier than thou to be sex repulsed!! Accept trauma survivors with hypersexuality. Ffs.
"You're a loser... but its time to ditch your self loathing."
Seriously, how can anyone not understand that "Loser, Baby" is incredibly uplifting. Seriously, I'd been in a low point with my chronic depression, and that song actually managed to lift me out of it for the first time in nearly two years of being stuck in it.
I'm very sorry to hear about your depression. As someone who has a friend and does my best to help him in his battle with depression, I have a pretty good understanding of how depression is a constant battle, and it means a lot to be a friend for that person, and this song really helps me in getting in the positive mindset to help out.
I tell my friend that it's okay to be low, there's nothing wrong with him, and it's okay to feel like a loser, as long as he has friends like me, and that as long as he loves himself, doesn't hate himself, and that he looks on the bright side as best he can, and he usually cheers up. Glad to see that you can find happiness against depression with a song in your heart like this one, like I do.
Same. I'm going through some rouch times, and that song is great. Its saying its ok to lose here and there. You're not alone.
Kinda late to the party here, but I just have to agree with you. I pretty much had the same experience. I’ve been so low for so long, and then here comes this show and this song, and it’s like woah okay. I am feeling inklings of happiness for the first time in years. Loser, Baby is incredibly uplifting and a fantastic song. The last verse gets me every time. Sometimes being told that “yeah your life does suck. I know how you feel” is the exact thing you need to hear to “lose your self-loathing”.
@@kinghyperheart1571 you remind me of a very good friend of mine. He’s the same way. And the one person who never fails to make me smile despite not really knowing or fully understanding what I’m going through. He’s just there to support me and love me. So I just wanted to say that I’m sure your friend really appreciates you a lot, dude. Having a friend like you is so incredibly important and wonderful. Thanks for being such a cool person ✌️hope you have a nice day haha
SAME this song has been the only thing that brings me comfort. Since I basically have no one to give me that.
As someone who’s a victim, angel dust is a really relatable depiction. MANY sa victims are hypersexual or just aren’t sex repulsed. People love to police how victims act, even if they’re a cartoon
Bc a hypersexual SA victim isn't what makes a "good" victim. It's messy and complex and is too nuanced to write off.
@@randompromises1038 yeah people dont like when they actually have to think about the experiences of a fictional character which literally makes them a good character and the realism to their emotions and the way they react trying to make the characters feel as human as possible which I believe angel dust is extremely relatable to me.
@@andromeda_neko I'm not an SA victim but I am still an abuse one (physical/emotional/verbal) and a lot of times when my experiences are portrayed it's one of two ways - either the victim is frail and quiet and jumps easily or they're the villain. There's rarely an in-between that shows the messy depression, the need to please others even if it's literally damaging you, the drifting towards other abusive relationships either to replace the one you're not in or because you feel compelled to "fix them". Being a victim is unhealthy and complicated and full of struggle and makes us messy. It makes us prone to making more mistakes, gives us imposter syndrome, makes us hate ourselves in a way more visceral than our own abusers, makes things hard and scary.
But none of these things get to be portrayed because it doesn't paint a palatable picture of what abuse truly does to a person. But if we didn't get the sugary version of the abuse, why do other people who've never experienced what we have?
I think a lot of media literacy death stems from folks being like "I don't like this piece of media with a popular fanbase and/or with a creator I don't like" then feeling the NEED to find something "problematic" to justify it. It's alright to just...not like a show, no need to make villains out of those who do lol
I feel like part of this stems from the “let people enjoy things” mentality. Because of the history on the internet of people being harassed for odd but innocent enjoyment (something awful hated anyone who was even associated with furries), there’s now this huge overcorrection where people fear that saying that you dislike anything is actually you inviting the people who made it to be harassed.
So in order to feel better about this paranoid delusion about a creator being harassed, they reach for straws to call something problematic so when they go to bed at night, they can say “I’m a good person. I got a (bad person) harassed, which is a good thing that should happen because it stops them from doing that bad thing”
But obviously it doesn’t
It's a mix of a few different things. I'll bullet point them to save myself time...
-Rise of binge watching & passive viewing (i.e. playing a show in the background while doing something else).
-Social media encouraging content that provokes visceral emotionality (i.e. ragebait, misery porn, etc etc).
-General rule of signal-to-noise ratios (i.e. more people you have in a given discussion, the lower the quality of discussion tends to be).
-General failure in education on the individual, community, and societal levels (i.e. inability to handle ideas and concepts without the aforementioned visceral emotionality).
-Unabashed increase in overt propaganda and the increasing levels of politicization in media and society, more generally.
The best thing you can do when it comes to asinine discussions is to avoid them entirely. Instead of giving any attention to intellectual chimps on Twitter, put forward or take part in discussions that put forth properly considered and grounded criticism. It's actually a testament to just how dull-witted and insipid some people can be that, of all things, they choose to complain about Angel Dust and not the wider, and significantly more pertinent and tangible, problems Hazbin Hotel has - such as it's structure, pacing, and the fact that it's speedrunning its own premise.
omg i remember when the alastor voodoo drama started someone on tiktok literally said "finally vivziepop is revealed to be a racist so i can bash on her" like at least be subtle??? if youre not caring about the actual racism and only care about hating on vivziepop then youre the racist yourself. they deleted their video tho
@@kayu. Exactly!! And I think when it comes to more nuanced subject matter as, I don't know, how victims respond to abuse, it can be REALLY bad. Because if an SA victim related or felt seen with Angel Dust's depiction, then imagine how shitty it must feel to see others calling it "disgusting" and "fetishizing." Literally being told their response to trauma is WRONG. I'm not saying there can't be a discussion on the matter, but to paint it all in one stroke when everyone knows trauma reflects differently in everyone is very dangerous
@@kayu. Oh my gosh that reminds me of back when I was big into The Adventure Zone and someone who really hated the McElroy brothers literally said something along the lines of "I hope it comes out that one of them raped someone so everyone starts hating them and I can feel vindicated for being right." And I was just like WOW. This guy really just said they hoped someone was raped so they can feel morally correct about not liking a piece of entertainment.
I'm literally a survivor and I think we NEED media representation like this. It's not fetishizing at all and if you think it is than it aligns you more dangerously with angels abuser than I think most anyone wants to be
People want perfect victims. They don’t think about the hypersexuality or addiction issues which can come from having those horrible experiences
Lemme guess. You have preferred pronouns in your bio.
@@Yayofangamer16 lemme guess, you have no bitches
i dont disagree, but i feel like comparison to an actual abuser is being used too lightly, even if you say its closer than anyone actually wants to be
@@Yayofangamer16 Bruv what
"Uncomfortable and...dirty.."
YES! The team nailed Anthony's trauma for someone like me who has been lucky to not experience this stuff in real life. Its really uncomfortable, not titillating. I grimaced and forced myself to look at the screen. It was shot in such a way to not glamorize it, but also let you see just how bad of a lifestyle you can be trapped in and WHY he chooses the coping mechanisms he does. It makes sense and I am enjoying this imperfect yet wonderful series!
nah but fr!! its supposed to make you feel you uncomfortable and gross because thats what SA is! i can't believe some people can't catch up on that..
there's always something wholesome about people referring to characters by their first and/or real names
I've been abused and I take a kind of solace in seeing it represented in media. Fiction is great for exploring powerful emotions both negative and positive, people have just become so allergic to nuance
all hidden in too much swearing
@@maffe_distroyer criticizing the swearing isn't real criticism
Angel's abuse is not being glorified in the song. It's very clear to me that Angel's trauma response is the fawn response, where he becomes incredibly agreeable to keep his abuser happy so he can make himself safe. As an SA survivor myself who also engages in the fawn trauma response, I found Poison particularly validating. For Fawners, there exists a lot of shame in not "fighting back" or "saying no." This can lead to them questioning the validity of their abuse and whether they have been at all because they "can only blame [themelf]." As a fawner, I saw myself in this scene.
same it’s something i’m trying to unlearn but it’s so hard. Good luck
as did i. i didnt suffer the level of abuse in Angels scene but i have my own connections and "flashbacks". i cried every time i watched the music video and forced myself to watch it again and again with other people reacting to this scene and its extremely validating that peoples hearts breake for Angel and his situation. the amount of people who almost fell out of their chairs when Charlie went into Demon Mode to help Angel against Val? i absolutely loved every reaction because its the reality of a very slippery slope.
I turn to fawning too. My ex never hit or blew up, more like if you took Alastor's style and mix it with Val. This song hit so hard. I hope you are doing well on your healing journey.
I know someone who survived being trafficked, Angel dust is their favourite character.
Acknowledging something bad exists is not fetishization, and representation of someone who's been through it and is not only still a full person, but a good person in spite of the damage and the facade they need to cope, can be genuinely healing.
People need to shut up about shit they know nothing about.
THIS! I cope the exact same way and find him SO comforting. It's so sad seeing people dismiss any portrayal of something that isn't what fits with their outsider ideals.
@@huglife626You are learning healthier coping mechanisms though right? Drxgs can kill you
@@SkylarThompson-mu1qs I don't do drugs, I was referring to the hypersexualizing
@@huglife626 Oh. But are you seeking help for that part?
@@SkylarThompson-mu1qs Can't afford therapy
The fact that i saw people tell SA survivors who defended this episode that they lie, should prove they were SAd and even told to be SAd again because it wasnt enough for them to understand ep4 is bad is sick. And it wasnt the fans i saw do this shit it was the haters being shitty as always
Consistently, in every way, anti-fans are objectively worse than fans. Always. By their very nature, people who are deeply upset that other people are having fun with something they don't vibe with, anti-fans are cancer and need to just be dismissed.
@@Lupostehgreat I don't understand anti-fans. If you don't like a piece of media for whatever reason, fine, but why then waste all this time, energy and effort consistently trying to rip it apart? I barely have time for the shit I LIKE, I can't imagine being so starved for attention and having the time to waste on shit I don't.
@@Lupostehgreat its in the inherent nature of both aspects themselves. actual fans are built off of passion and love for something while anti-fans are built off of vitriol and hate.
@@SISIOTW yup, and we are at this wierd fever pitch of anti-fans, again. It's a cycle; the last time we were in this cycle was during the height of the angry reviewing craze in the late 00's, early 10's. We're moving out of it, again, and good riddance.
This just proves that a lot of these people don't actually care about SA victims or SA being written correctly. They just want reasons to shit on the show
twitter when the writers don’t turn to them dora the explorer style and explain that yes, this scene where a character is being abused and has to turn to substance to cope is, if fact, meant to show how horrific his situation is.
Not an SA survivor, but I was abused physically and emotionally/verbally as a child, and I've noticed this awful trend within writing that sort of takes the exact things I've experienced and makes them seem like desirable experiences...? This was a Wattpad phenomenon where I saw girls actively fawning over the asshole love interest who should have DEFINITELY given the fmc lasting psychological issues. Now, I have to be paranoid about my writing in portraying the things I did experience, but having to jump through so many hoops to make sure it isn't taken as a positive or justified portrayal of these very awful things.
It's really not just on Twitter, it's everywhere now.
Like hell on Reddit I saw people on a movie sun arguing about how Dune Part II glamorizes the idea of a white savior when literally the entire movie was screaming the entire time about the literal opposite.
People simply cannot comprehend complex storytelling anymore.
@@Illier1 I wonder if that's happening just because more younger people are on the internet nowadays or if social media is killing off our braincells... maybe both
@@randompromises1038 Yeah I think there’s a psychological term for this behavior but I can’t remember it right now.
@@tami7992 I wouldn't be so quick to blame the younger folks.
Millenial here, both my generation and the inmediate previous ones are at best "dbz gud bicuz gOkU kills all bicuz power levl heil hydrA".
"dragon" ball, rwby, cocomelon, every generation has its own braincells killer...
I’m a survivor as well. For me it also became hypersexuality & hypersexualising myself; there’s near no representation of this, only asexuality as a result (which is equally valid, though CAN be romanticised and called ‘pure’ while the opposite is made taboo). This is from my personal experiences being HS online, luckily I’ve been granted the ability to heal due to being stubborn enough to push on and build a good social network
Angel is a breath of fresh air if anything else, he encourages people to empathise with others that on a surface level just seem ‘lustful’. I’m grateful for Vivienne’s depiction of SA, it isn’t something that’s universally experienced the same, and neither is the trauma caused by it
exactly this poison made me feel so validated though I did end up relapsing pretty severely from the episode in general but in no way did i see it as glorifying
it, I saw it as one of the most accurate depictions of the kind of abuse and my coping mechanisms i built up to deal with it.
@@andromeda_nekorelasping? Like you got triggered?
Angel Dust's experiences and SA storyline lets people who've been hurt like him have someone to resonate with, and then watching him grow past his trauma can offer those same people some hope. The show is actively still releasing episodes, so of course it looks real bad now. They have to set up the problem to give the proper solution later on. Literally, we have to let them cook! As rushed as Hazbin is, I'm trusting the storytellers to make good on what they've set up with Angel.
Honestly I feel the rushed nature of Hazbin Hotel might be due to not getting as many episodes for season 1 as they might’ve wanted. 8 30 minute episodes isn’t a lot if they were given say 12 30 minute episodes or the episodes were 45 minutes long maybe they’d have been able to pace it out more. We are getting a season 2 so maybe by then they’ll have better pacing. That being said I really like the show so far the newest episode “welcome to heaven” had a really good song in “you didn’t know” at least I thought so
@@Crystal_Dylan Oh yeah 100%. That's why as frustrating as it is I give the show grace for it. I really felt the fast pace hurt it bad in episode 3 with the whole Vaggie and Charlie trust fight, but I know they only have so much time to tell the story they want to, and they're doing their best.
That is also something else, I have seen how people now do not want to wait for a problem to be resolved, they act as if they want the problem to be resolved in the same chapter in which it is presented.
Fr tho, like the show JUST started of course it won't be resolved that fast
It's episode 3 your talking about not 2 @@professionalscribbler
Basically there's no single right answer, victims are not a monolith. Some SA victims find Angel's reclaiming his incident uplifting and relatable, and other victims who find Angel's abuse being portrayed in a flashy pop song triggering and offensive. There are different levels of sensitivity to the topic and how it was portrayed, and both types are valid (disregarding all the people who just use buzzwords to hop on the drama bandwagon)
It's funny because following the general stagecraft of a musical, which Hazbin most certainly is, when emotions become so overpowering that spoken words can't convey the message that's when characters break out into song. So of course the SA scene would be in the form of a song about Angel internalizing his trauma!
@@journeymanic9605I guess the argument could be made that it didn’t have to be structured into a pop song of all things, but again I’m not one to discuss in detail how this theme and such topic should be handled
@@terrizoop3739 I'm not so sure that being a pop song is much of a problem. Many pop so gs are about abuse. The fact that it's upbeat is in line with Angel's character. He masks his trauma with an upbeat oversexed attitude. The music is high energy and even fun, but the lyrics are about how it's killing him.
The problem is people acting like their triggers are anything but their own. Their attitude about their trauma is why they aren't able to heal, because treating yourself as a victim doesn't allow for healing, growth, coping, anything!
And no, this isn't victim-blaming. They're not at fault for being abused, just for refusing to cope appropriately.
It's also literally fine to relate to Angel or like the show, but people need to understand the very objective flaws with the way that it handles SA
I don't see anyone talking about Angel's voice literally CHANGING when his true self comes out during the whole Valentino situation, after he sees his real name on the contract.
Pretty sure it's meant to differentiate Angel Dust from Antony, the real Angel. Really clever directing
Angels voice changes constantly from masculline to femmenine depending on how real and honest he's being vs how how much he's acting. Like every other line is a full voice twice in poison.
Alistor also has a similar thing where his radio effect will tune down the more honest and emotional he's being, occasinally the radio effects turns off completely.
I absolutely feel seen with Angel's depiction and even Valentino's bumbling-ness later on, because yeah, in hindsight my abusers were stupid af, they just had power over me due to circumstance, if anything that made it feel more real to me tbh
Exactly this. Through hindsight at the person who terrorized me for most of my life, I too learned that having high people manipulation skills doesn't make an overall competent or impressive person. It's just marketing that sells this false idea to insecure people, that confident and competent people get others to do everything for them because they're just better than eeeeeveryone else for having *this* cool new product. The same guy that made my life a living hell, repeatedly poked a wasp nest (without even smoking them out first) with some glue to try and plug up the thing, JUST to avoid hiring a professional. It's as if they use everyone else as meat shields for their own refusal to learn the kinder spectrum of skills and wisdom
REAL REAL REAL REAL!!! my abuser is just like that and it made me feel so seen
It would sound naive for anyone to say that it’s unrealistic for abusers to act like normal goofy people. We’ve been clowning on pedos and zoos all the time when their allegations came out. When people say a bad person can act normal they truly mean the cute little goofball next door could break into your house to gut you open, they’re not gonna be a charming womanizer to every person they encounter.
As a survivor of abuse, Angeldust represents 💯! The way he blames himself and feels responsible to put himself in between everyone else and his abuser, and the way he becomes hell bent on keeping other at risk people from becoming victims like him, that's as real as it gets; it's not glamorous, and if it sounds glamorous to you, or looks glamorous when you see Angel go through it on screen then you should get your flipping head checked, you might already be a victim and not even recognize it 😞.
I think there is a certain aesthetic of glamour, which is innate to pop really, involved in it the music video, but it links heavily into both the intersection of glamour and abuse Angel is trapped in, which is fitting considering the prevalance of abuse and exploitation of both women and younger, especially queer, men in the entertainment industry and the fact that Angel is romanticizing and glamourising his abuse as a defense mechanism.
@@shizachan8421 exactly this - angel's "badass power bottom" mask is such a familiar one a lot queer men adopt as a silver bullet against a lot of casual social homophobia, but inhabiting that persona of "there's nothing this party can throw at me i'm not down for" can be a very real risk to not quite knowing when you're in over your head. the sequence *is* glamorous and erotic, because that's the food that was "poisoned"; vices that were used against him.
I’m too tired to offer the adequate praise this comment deserves, but just know that this was a YES! angel feels so real in a way that most shows for some reason never actually depict (its not just a one minute thing that sucks and then hes fine, but its also not a running joke or a constant attention grab saying “look at that character! we are showing representation now!” he just feels like a perfect way to handle the topic). AND his character doesn’t rely on shock value from the audience to make a point. honestly, whenever there was a really good scene, animation wise, script wise, anything, i just had to pause and think about it and watch it again because it was so good (it feels so empowering the way that he is, i don’t know how else to say that, like it doesn’t make it too uncomfortable to watch or retraumatize me but its still full of emotion and compassion).
Survivor here too, and I wholeheartedly agree. I saw the way that Angel put himself in front of Valentino and turned away the people that he cared about to not only keep them safe, but to control the situation and try to minimize what damage he would face himself later. It made my heart absolutely drop, because it was just so familiar. That's what abusers do, they divide you out away from the people that can help you. They see outside influence as a threat. There was so much nuance in this portrayal that it made my head spin a bit.
Dude, I ended up crying for like ten straight minutes with how seen I felt by the end of ep 4
Welcome to the internet were anything you say, there will be hated and vitriol from anywhere you stand
Did you piece that together from Bo Burnham? (I know those aren’t actual words to the song)
Only the first line
Ahhh woah
Welcome to the Internet,
Where anything you say,
Will be mis-in-ter-per-ate-ed any time of day.
Welcome to the internet
I would also like to add that the main reason that storyboard artist was used for Poison specifically is because they are also a choreographer. They storyboarded for Klown Bitch in Helluva Boss, and choreographed for Addict
You can really tell that they are a choreographer, thank you for that bit of trivia!
That whole issue seemed really weird to me because like. Obviously I don't know this artist or their intentions but like--someone can have a kink and separate that from their job? Like yeah I can understand thinking "hm that's a bit weird" but especially with a super fantasy-heavy kink like cnc provided you aren't a horrible person it's gotta be Pretty Fucking Easy to separate "the type of material that is for this kink" with "Everything Else About Sexual Abuse" y'know? I just don't think this is that big of a deal (although it is separately weird that this person decided to make content about this for a show they were working on/had in the past, but that's not evil it's just. Odd).
@@Ray-hk1zm This! It's so weird how people discover someone has a kink and think that's something that person will necessarily have on their mind 24/7. There's time and place. Like you said, they were asked to do a job and did it. It's not so complicated. Also, YES CNC is so fantasy-related. Basically acting and fiction. Like, who knew! A good artist can write/draw a scene where someone commits murder and it's portrayed as great and satisfying and cathartic and also a scene where it's horrifying and evil and terrible. Context matters.
That seems like a really important detail to be left out of this all
Also I feel like even if Viv knew there’s kinda no legal basis to restrict/fire the worker based on this as far as I know. It’d definitely be illegal where I live
fun fact: in the song "loser, baby", husk waits for angel to give his hand unlike in the scenes where they just forcefully grab him
@pickledlobsterrrrrmood
Someone I'm following on Instagram said that this show was sexualizing/fetishizing Angel's abuse and I was absolutely dumbfounded. Like...there's no way you actually watched the show if you think that, or at the very least you didn't watch Masquerade. The most sexualized part of Angel's trauma are the parts HE HIMSELF sexualizes as a COPING MECHANISM. Plus, developing hypersexuality due to being sexually abused is a real thing that happens to people?? Not all sexual abuse survivors deal with their trauma in the same way nor always feel the same way about sex after the fact, and the fact that people see exploring the different ways people can be traumatized by SA as fetishization is fucking insane.
i think a big reason for the fetishization claims is due to the fact that (alledgedly) one of the storboardists for the show (who also storyboarded poison) fetishized rape , an example being that they made a "rapeship" for angel dust and valentino .. whether or not i believe the animation itself was fetishized or not ? i think it kind of was ?? i mean , in the view of the people who made it . i know what they were going for, but if what they say is true then ... yeesh
@@swisystuffif it is true about that dude, then Jfc. But I think it’s incredibly important to look at episode 4 itself, specifically the song “poison” and how it’s framed. Sure, the choreography’s awesome, the lighting, visuals and animation are all absolutely incredible. But it doesn’t have that feeling of it being a beautiful/attractive spectacle. It gives off the impression that angel is either dissociating or high out of his mind to where he’s going with the flow. After all, he’s not mentally there. However, in the middle and the end of the chorus, we get flashes of scenes that are lighted darker, or are more violent (think the bdsm scene or the moment he’s with valentino). It plays like someone coming down from a high or coming back from a dissociative episode, and all they’re left with is the violent and horrible situation they’ve been in. None of it feels glamorous or fetishized. It’s all simply fluff used to cover the horrible truth of the matter. Much like Valentino, who’s entire design is a vibrant red and yellow which gives him this regal/alluring and suave facade that covers what he really is, a short tempered abusive piece of shit.
Yup, can confirm, hyper sexualization of the self is a very VERY real thing some SA survivors use as a coping mechanism.
As someone who was SA'd and developed such a kink as a result, I honestly see nothing wrong with the kink or r*peships even when done by people who haven't been SA'd, so long as it is not fetishizing real life people. If anything I think it's a real talent to have storyboarded it so well having not gone through that themselves as I really identified with everything that went in to that part of the show from animation to song etc.@@swisystuff
@@swisystuff That was irky, yes but the storyboard artist is as far as I know a SA survivor themselves, so I think its not really on anyone to judge how they cope with Trauma as long as they are not harming anyone, so I would argue at worst one could make a case of them publishing some of the more problematic stuff on a more private account.
at least for me, I didn't came out of the episode offended.
I was a SA victim when i was 10, and after some time, I spent my teenage years feeling like angel dust. It took a really long time for me to really escape from the worst parts of my life and overcome depression, and I can see my old self in Angel. I decided to ignore both twitter drama and Fandom, as I do with every piece of media I watch. I prefer to enjoy the show, and if i see bad episodes, or if it becomes objectively bad, I will stop watching it.
That being said, I loved the Episode. Definitely one of my favorites tbh.
i was S.A'd, and i am very dissapointed by this portrayal of S.A. they show him enjoying it and doing it willingly but then he turns around and he hates it? I'm verry confused and disapointed. its not a bad portrayal its just not a very logical one in my opinion
@@chordsofsteel-i4j Angels case is a unique one. His abuser not just owns him like one would own a slave, he owns Angels very Soul. He could cause Angel untold pain or even kill him permanently on a whim, and Angel couldnt do anything to stop it.
TW Past this point: SA
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But on that note, many victims to end up sexualizing/fetishizing their abuse, because it gives them some amount of control over their situation, and a little control is better than no control. In Angels case, he's never shown actually enjoying it. I think you're confusing him having a smile with him enjoying it.
Additionally, Angel could actually enjoy doing sex work. He could like acting and like preforming in porn. You cant fault him for doing something he enjoys. Where the abuse comes in is his lack of choice, especially when Val himself gets personally involved. When Val forces himself on him.
@@chordsofsteel-i4jI also enjoyed my SA experience to a degree. I was very confused by it for years. But in the end, I think it's better for my brain to cope with it this way instead of being traumatized and broken by the experience. My therapist explained that it's normal, and even people who've never experienced SA will often fantasize about it.
I like the idea of not being in control of what's happening to me, in an isolated context. What makes abuse so terrifying is that when it does cross that line for you, you can't make it stop and the consequences linger. While a fictional story has no real consequences, it doesn't have to cause any real pain to the characters involved. It's why pornography is always so unrelastic. It gives the illusion of that loss of control that you desire without any of the actual pain and hurt and trauma.
At least for me, the worst part is that I enjoyed it at some point. I think it was my way to cope with everything at that point, something that ended up being the main cause of my depression when I was 14, and even made me stop trying to connect and even hate the thought of being with someone, as I was afraid that it could happen again. So, I dont think it was a bad portrayal, as many people end up confused and lost in life when this happens. Angel might like being an artist that works with it, or like acting, but not like his abuser. As I now, love having sex and connecting with people, just hate the person who did this to me.@@chordsofsteel-i4j
@@chordsofsteel-i4j he isnt enjoying it the entire point it him putting on a mask to deal with the abuse
I loved the ending, someone didn’t come to save the day. They just end up laughing at and making fun of their abuser.
honestly that was better but i know alot of us wanted someone to get get rid of val
@charliepuppy. He will probably die at some point, maybe next season.
a villain: is a villain
twitter: you cant do that
"What fan base for an adult cartoon is younger and more juvenile than hazbin hotel?"
South park
Facts
And family guy
Wouldn't they be mostly 30+ adults now? its a old show. i didn't think teenager or kids watched that. i did at 12 but surely its not still popular.
@@lotus_flower2001 Nope, the fandom is still alive and well
@@lotus_flower2001 You'd be surprised.
See, your first mistake was using Twitter. Your second mistake was continuing using Twitter.
His third mistake was not deleting his Twitter
As someone who decided to deactivate their Xwitter account, I don't think I have ever been more happy in my entire life
Amen. I've managed to avoid 99% of pointless "drama" by deleting my account.
@@themanbehindthebruhmoment502 Oh yeah, metal health improves significantly once one deletes their Xwitter account.
@@themanbehindthebruhmoment502
Personally, deleting Twitter legit just helped my mental health too. I got literal sewer slide threats and I just sat there on the couch, fucking deflated because I saw them and read through them all 🤯🤯🤯
As someone who grew up in an abusive household during my teens, Angel's behavior makes sense as a survivor. You do risky behavior to claim back control of your life, and if it harms you, it won't matter since you have such little agency already. Its self destructive and tragic and thats what the show is trying to convey.
The show... Literally makes the abuser the bad guy.
It also make him a bumbling fool, which is quite accurate to my own manipulators
@@kingnightmarevin And gives you a chance to laugh at him...
And then creates a character almost designed to scare and bully them (Nifty, quite literally rips his fur off)
Twitter users saying others are media illiterate is pot meets kettle energy.
This is why most people find it very difficult nowadays to voice their own opinions because they would either be a target of hate or brush aside like it was nothing.
Mentally Unstable Twitter users attacking someone over an opinion who could've seen that coming
This is why most people find it very difficult nowadays to voice their own opinions because they would either be a target of hate or brush aside like it was nothing.
@@damonlam9145 Can imagine free speech never exist at all thanks to them
As a person who’s also experienced SA and can relate a lot to angels behavior to a certain point, you’ve explained this perfectly and thank you for doing so. I hate when people say that people are fetishizing their SA experiences just because they handle/cope with their trauma by acting happy or like they’re fine. We try to mask how we really feel and we try to act happy in hopes that we can trick ourselves into thinking we are ok and doing great. It’s hard to explain.
Based on a couple of friends I've had online, victims of SA or otherwise, this does seem to be a general coping mechanism with things even like depression. It's definitely some form of placebo, that by oppressing the trauma or their emotions outwardly, they're trying their best to subdue those emotions and make things better for everyone around them (and hopefully themselves in due time). To a point, it seems scarier to try and take that away from them, that there's a chance that by trying/forcing them to open up you're only letting old wounds bleed even more than they already did. It's definitely a thought that's crossed my mind, at least.
..Though I must stress this is purely based on interactions with friends and I have been lucky to never go through such horrible things.
I hate Twitter and everything the replies to JS's tweets stand for.
"glorifying SA"
WTF?! are they sure we watched the same scene?? that was horrifying and in no way positive 😭🤚
Exactly! Only thing I can think of is that they misunderstood the usage of poison (and maybe think it conveys the wrong tone)
I think part of the pacing problem with Hazbin is that they only have 8 episodes for the first seasons, that's a very short amount of time to establish characters, their motivations/relationships/personalities etc. As a result there ends up being a lot of tonal whiplash and scenes don't get enough time to settle into their impact, before it gets rushed into the next scene.
Im also giving the show a lot of leeway because its nowhere near being done, after all there is season 2 coming and Ive heard theres more planned after that. So hopefully they'll shlow the pacing down a little now that they know thwy dont have to rush the story.
ETA: I am not surprised illiterate Twitter users lost their collective marbles when you tried to explain yourself multiple times, they're too used to getting their own way and having creators bend the knee and appologise. So when a creator doesnt apologise and declair themselves as "sinner", they get even more upset because they cant compute as to why their bully tactics didnt work.
Yeah, I would have liked the season to be a bit longer so that we could watch the characters build a bit more. I do think that it is making a lot with the little time it’s got, though.
Fuck whatever executive that decided 8 episode seasons were acceptable thing to normalize
People keep saying this and while I do believe Viv's hands may have been tied at times. She's still the writer, S1 could have focused on the characters and the world building. S2 could have added the extermination crunch. There are many short works that can tell a cohesive story in less time.
@@grimsonforce7504I see your point but I think they didn't know they were actually getting a season two until about like half way through production
It definitely feels like they're setting up the dominoes to fall at some point, and that they'll come together.
As a berserk fan I understand the struggle. It's ok for people to uncomfortable with the SA scenes, and not watch the show, but I hate how they accused the fans and creators of fetishizing and hating women. SA is ALWAYS shown as pure evil and it has HUGE impact on the characters in Berserk.
Actually, there are several scenes in vivziepop's shows playing off SA as a joke. This is done with both moxxie and sir pentious.
@Agohlmador I was talking about how berserk handles SA. Sorry for the confusion
then is used as a funny haha joke when sir pentonius ( it think thats his name) is dragged to a room to be SA by others , gotta love vivzie men hating :D
Beserk’s sa scenes are sexualized by the author though. I’ve seen them. I’m not a fan of beserk because I was so disgusted at the depiction.
I was goofing off in a convention hotel with my friends who were far more interested in the show than me. The show was a bit of a bumpy ride until the whole sequence with Valentino and Angeldust along with Poison literally skyrocketed my investment. Their interaction upset me greatly (in a intentional uncomfortable way) and Poison felt very personal. I loved how it portrayed the way he put forward his persona to distract from the fact that he's being controlled and to give an appearance of being the one in charge no matter what situations he's forced into, while it eats away at him inside. Writers, story boarders, artists, and their niches and interests aside, they wrote a damned good scene here that feels very real and came across as uncomfortably as it should have.
That said, tone seems to be very inconsistent through the show, so I understand this deeply uncomfortable scene giving people whiplash and splitting the fanbase. If this scene was written like the earlier parts of the series, I'd expect Valentino to start singing and really downplaying the seriousness of the scene. I haven't seen anything further than the first 4 episodes, but I hope the writing gets better and they slow the fuck down with their pacing a bit.
After episode 4, it sort of goes back to business as usual. I feel that the inconsistent tone made it come off as insincere, because it came out of left field right after a bunch of “lol p0rn funny” jokes. I definitely could see the intention behind it, but the setup and then payoff in future episodes were ultimately what made it land flat. I disagree with people saying subject matter like this shouldn’t be discussed, but I do agree that it was poorly set up.
I’ve also heard about people complaining about the pacing, but I think it’s because the writers are trying to fit a whole story into 8 episodes with only the “promise” of a second season that, lets face it, in this day and age doesnt mean shit to streaming services, who can and will cancel shows at the drop of a hat.
@@Tjnovakart I'd like to disagree while acknowledging the pacing issue but they only have 8 episodes. After you get abused in real life... The world goes on like normal. Angel's abuse in the show has been going on the whole time before it was shown in detail. What else is there to do but go back to normal... Prawn jokes are the normal. It's a coping mechanism to make fun of elements around the bad thing that's happening. I feel that makes it more sincere... Everything goes back ...
"angels mask" would be believeable , if the show cared, also , a "confident face during "the act" is usually part of what non-consensual freaks enjoy , blaming the " but he/she wanted , so its not really bad "
@@Tjnovakart It went back to "business as usual" because the show skipped four months of time, so we missed a lot of development. But, honestly, I think episode 6 shows that things are not really "business as usual" and Angel is growing stronger to at least stand up enough to Val to protect his friends, whereas before he just frantically tried to get Charlie out of the studio before Val saw her and then stood by silently while he se*ually harassed her.
Sucks when people only want the "good victims" to have rep.
People want “perfect victims”. They wanna see absolutely depraved shit happen and have the victim react in an “appropriate” manner. A lot of people don’t understand the shades and nuance of mental health. SA/any abuse survivors aren’t a monolith, everyone is affected differently by such a traumatic event that leaves a mark on your very being. Sometimes, people get better or get help, sometimes people become hypersexual, sometimes they objectify themselves, sometimes they spiral, and sometimes they just don’t get better or wind up hurting people themselves.
It’s the same type of people that got mad when characters like clay puppington or bojack horsemen were shown that they themselves were victims at one point.
@@justanotherguy560 Exactly right! Like, oh I'm sorry I'm coping in a way that's not appropriate to you, and I'm sorry I feel represented by seeing Angel Dust blame himself for his situation just like I blamed myself for mine. Like it's like victims are beholden to thought crimes to some extent. You HAVE to be the perfect sexless, blameless, perfect little victim for people to root for. And if you're not? You're fetishizing yourself!
(content warning for discussion of suicide and self harm) I remember 13 Reasons Why had a scene that depicted a suicidal character saying something along the lines of "suicide is for the weak, and self harm is something you do so you don't commit suicide. Now look, 13 Reasons Why depicts it's subject terribly, it is horrible when it comes to discussing difficult topics (as discussed in the above video). But, I have seen people suggest that characters should NEVER be depicted with ideas like this. That these kinds of "bad beliefs" should never be shown in any capacity
The reality is, that is how some real people think about suicide and self harm. I think its harmful to suggest that these people shouldn't have representation in media - not everyone is this "perfect victim" who does the right things, and thinks the right things all the time. I think that its important to explore these ideas and deconstruct them. And its honestly more impactful for a character like that to get on the road to recovery for a lot of people than it is to see another "perfect victim"
@@justanotherguy560 I was abused (not sexually) as a child and it warped my logic so that I thought only "This is my fault, I deserved it". Once I was taken out of that environment via foster care, I struggled IMMENSELY because I wasn't fighting to survive anymore. I ended up staying in my room watching TH-cam all day and grew an intense attachment to my tablet to where I would have near-anxiety attacks being grounded from it when I was failing so badly I nearly flunked twice in middle school and my hair was in knots. My foster parent did not like the fact I wasn't coping; I was too old to be like a kid who had arguably "easier" reactions to trauma. Being an older kid when the abuse happened, I was mature enough to understand it, but not nearly mature enough to process it. It got to the point she advertised me on Facebook to other foster parents to see if she could get rid of me, while simultaneously discouraging my future adoptive parents from adopting me due to my difficult behavior.
Fast forward to being adopted and I am still brainwashed, but with medication and therapy I manage to gain a lot more self-confidence again - then my adoptive mother starts abusing me. Calling me attention-seeking for my relapses, accusing me of having an eating disorder with no proof, allowing my toddler brother to grope me or throw things at my head with no consequence for it while blaming me for supposedly riling him up, being too much, too loud, too talkative about things nobody else cares about, getting mad at me for not tolerating her putting her hands on me... I, incidentally, became the problem of my family. Again.
The idea that a child or anybody experiencing life-changing trauma won't somehow be destructive, be harmful or hateful or standoffish, invalidates the experiences of many survivors. I will not sit here and paint a pretty picture of what the aftermath of abuse does to someone just so other people can digest it easier - I never got to digest it easy. Some recover quickly and are doing well mentally and I wish them the best, but I can still wish the best for the ones still struggling, still on the verge of a relapse, still blaming themselves for what they experienced. There is no such thing as a good victim.
Me with depression. « How dare you lash out at self righteous bullies ? I thought you were the idealist ?"
I believe val is also based off an old boyfriend of viv's who was abusive as well. I also think viv's portrayal of val was pretty accurate to a lot of real life abusers.
A lot of them are insecure idiots who can't emotionally control themselves or rationally work things through, and want to express total power over people they see themselves as "owning". Just like val.
Wow that adds an even more fucked up dimension if true. “Yeah…i know you were abused and all but your expression of your trauma is invalid because I say so”
Did Viv say that?
I’d respect her a hell of a lot more if she addressed the actual SA fetishist who helped storyboard this and didn’t make SA the punchline of multiple jokes all while expecting it be taken seriously when the plot demands it.
@@havicmaking your point is addressed in the video this comment is under, please watch that.
Sure, except.... you shot, and missed completely.
Vivs portrayal was not meant to be a representation of SA and how people cope with it. Instead, its a homeage to one of her storyboard artists k!nk comic. The whole SA scene is a homeage to Raphielles fet!sh piece, given entirely to them to storyboard.
Raphielle is not a SA victim - they are a self-admitted SA fet!shizer, widely known for s_xually harassing kids on Twitter on top of that.
Thats what the issue is. I dont know why yall are so dead set on not addressing it.
This is what happens when a mostly children fanbase realizes that the show they are watching has adult themes bc its an adult show
So true. To be fair, from what I've seen it FEELS LIKE watching a kids show. With all the musicals and pacing it literally reminds me of MY LITTLE PONY. That's not a good thing to be my first thought about a show meant to be for "adults".
@@ActuallyAShrimpplus it doesn't help that the hell vs angel thing seems so shallow, which is disappointing from an adult show who doesn't have any limits in exploring complex and nuanced themes/topics.
Shows the current young generation. Showing something is condoning that thing seems to be the default thought process even though that's just dumb.
@@ActuallyAShrimp Why is that your immediate correlation? There are very dark, adult musicals. Ever heard of Les Miserables? Or, since that's more classic broadway and we're comparing to Hazbin's flashy-ness... uh, ever heard of RENT? The idea that anyone could see even a few *seconds* of this show and think it's a children's show is beyond me. Even 'Happy Day In Hell', which is musically almost Disney like, you can't go more than 5 seconds without seeing something clearly very adult.
@@ActuallyAShrimp "Feels Like," seems pretty relative. A shows target demographic or age rating tells you next to nothing about a shows content.
Oh thank GOD I've felt like I'm losing my mind watching the discourse around this scene.
I understood the drama to some extent when a 10 second clip leaked before the show dropped, and people were making assumptions (though I still thought it was silly without seeing context) but after finally watching the episode and seeing people STILL big mad all over the internet utterly baffled me.
I'm a survivor myself, and the scenes were uncomfortable and unnerving, but it was so real. Especially as someone that became hypersexual in my late teens as a result of my trauma, Angel's perspective really meant a lot to me.
The death of media literacy... Gee I wish that wasn't so accurate...
the scene was fetish, it makes people with cnc fetishes find it hot
the scene appeals to c n c lovers
@@yayayayaysayayayayayaytyy yeah nah. consensual non-consent is my thing too. I don't appreciate the demonization. And that's not what's being depicted in the canon.
And even if someone with my fetish DID use it to get off in a fantasy, it doesn't matter because that's not what's canon? That's why it's still consensual: because fantasies about fiction means it affects literally no one. Quite literally not your business.
@@QuincyQuinn95 forreal, I'm into that shit and the scenes didn't turn me on, they made me uncomfortable.
People literally just think kinksters are evil and cnc play is just rape (which lmao consent literally is in the name) when the dynamics are so much more complicated.
I'm so exhausted of both the fans and the detractors of this show just failing to be adults with critical thinking about any content whatsoever.
@@yayayayaysayayayayayaytyy Literally everything will appeal to someone's fetish. And even if it does? Who tf cares? These are fictional characters. Angel Dust is not an actual person and you twitter freaks need to understand the separation between fiction and reality before reality hits you in the head with a crowbar.
S/A victims are extremely difficult to write because we often self-fetishize ourselves, which is almost always viewed as the creator being a weirdo. Thanks for talking about it.
My personal issue with the show is that it does a good job at displaying Angel Dust’s experiences with sa (the twitter mob claiming it to be fetishy is… well.. twitters gonna twitter), but the show will simultaneously make jokes about sa at other characters expense. In one of the most recent episodes a scene where Sir Pentious is dragged into a room to have sex with people he doesn’t want to have sex with is weirdly played off for laughs, in an episode which focuses on Angel Dust confronting his abuser. It’s just.. who’s writing this 😭
Like, idk, correct me if I’m wrong here by all means. But why focus on the damage of sexual abuse to one character, and then joke about it with another - even if it’s such a tiny clip. They could’ve easily made some other joke here.
Yea that’s a little weird
Yeah I commented abt this just now, she has a habit of favoritism. When something bad happens to a supporting character it's played as a joke but if it's someone like Angel it's completely serious
There's a lot of implied SA jokes in HB for some reason
@@amberwingtundrawing776 it just baffles me how there would be such a focus on Angel Dust’s suffering, would the wrongness of the joke not have reached out and slapped her in the face? I’m not a fan of any of her works, or her brand of humour, but I really don’t understand who’s laughing here. Or even if people find it funny, they may find it uncomfortable because it’s literally during a scene in which Angel confronts his abuser 😭🥲
It's such a shame because otherwise, it's a well-setup joke and one of the few ones that would actually be funny if it wasn't for the implied SA.
Like, i actually laughed for a split second before realising the implications.
I do apologize on believing the bullshit from Twitter but I didn’t like how people claimed you didn’t care about SA survivors. Twitter is full of dumb people sometimes. Plus I do love the song “Loser Baby” mostly because Keith Davis but it was a good message on Angel and Husk’s situation.
This is why most people find it very difficult nowadays to voice their own opinions because they would either be a target of hate or brush aside like it was nothing.
@@damonlam9145 pretty much and people can feel upset by this scene or feel heard but what Angel Dust goes though is very real and maybe Angel will learn how to heal in the end of the series.
Seriously. I've shelled up completely in online spaces, had a friend go down the militant puritanism path and demand I cut off contact with the rest of my friends because they were 'proshippers'. It's bewildering.
@@gaycryptidhourswhat is a proshipper?
A lot of the people who claimed to care for sexual assault survivors tend to only care about survivors if it’s under a specific context. Namely, if we say the right things. The moment we don’t say what they think we should say, they immediately turn on us.
Everyone reacts to trauma SO differently. Some people become scared of sex and vehemently sex-negative and some people become (or at least put on the facade of) hyper-sexuality as a way to reclaim their voice. It's like when Rihanna put out the song S&M. She was being criticized and told she was "to blame" for what happened, so instead of being vulnerable and asking for empathy, she clapped back and told people she can endure the pain of being in the spotlight because her haters fuel her to perform. I thought that was a very bold and powerful statement from her, and I definitely looked to her as an inspiration when I was/ am healing from SA trauma.
I think that the reason a lot of people don't get the pacing and dialog in Hazbin is that they haven't seen or analyzed much musical theater. Hazbin is structured and written much more like a play than a typical show. It's not for everyone but once you look at it like that stuff clicks more.
Yeah, this right here! I personally didn't have many issues with the pacing because the songs are communicating SO MUCH in such a short amount of time. "Respectless" epitomizes this in my opinion. Velvette doesn't have a lot of screen time in Season 1, but that song PERFECTLY encapsulates her character in 90 seconds. As someone who loves musical theater and can tell that's how the show is structured, the pacing didn't really bother me. I feel like if the show had just one or two more episodes, no one would be complaining about the pacing because the show IMO makes the most of its limited runtime.
I can honestly say this isn't true. I've analyzed quite a lot of literature at university, took two mandatory "literary analysis" classes (one for British, one for American), and honestly, this is just flat out a lack of media literacy. In other words, people are completely media-illiterate. Any media could have handled the topic with the same story as Hazbin Hotel, even with the songs either in song or poem form, and the same morons would still be complaining. It's the same type of people who call The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn an evil, racist story when one huge character arc for the main protagonist is UNLEARNING RACISM. You can use any format of media, people are just too media-illiterate to grasp a story that doesn't say every single thing in the most flat out, monotone, 100% obvious way as if it was trying to explain it to a five-year-old.
@@quantumvideoscz2052 Original commenter and I were specifically talking about the pacing. I agree with you that a lot of the criticism of Harbin Hotel's "problematic" elements stem from a lack of media literacy, but the original commenter and I were ONLY talking about the pacing of the show and why we don't think it's as big of a problem as others seem to think it is.
I think the problem is that when a song tries to convey subtlety in its messaging, it just isn't picked up on because Hazbin isn't a subtle show. It has a lot of good, maybe even clever ideas, but its so in your face and goofy that when the show treats itself seriously it throws everyone for a loop, and the songs themselves aren't that subtle either. Loser Baby is in a weird liminal space where its a good song that has a good message but has been shot in the foot because the show its a part of hates the concept of reading into themes
makes sense! the show seems to be pretty on the nose with it's content so it's easy for some people's first impression of more serious scenes to be just another edgy joke :')
It’s weird because it proves they CAN do subtlety, but they just.. don’t
@@VantaDrawsit’s probably due to them only have 8 episodes
@@Yami-mugoni613 I'd say that's a big part of the problem, but it's a similar problem to helluva
That's why it's meant for adults, I'm sure. Because kids often watch something at face value while adults are more likely to read into and analyze stuff.
Regarding the Merchandise drama, I believe the main pin set people were upset at were the “angst pins” fan, which were promoted by the storyboard artist who had a thing for nonconsensual activity.
What likely happened was that “a storyboard artist is promoting pins calling an abusive relationship ‘angsty’” likely devolved into “HAZBIN is SELLING pins making light of an abusive relationship”
That being said you COULD argue Vivzie supported it since she promoted them and said they looked awesome, but it reads waaay more like she was talking about the quality of the artwork and not its content.
I think it also doesn’t help that another homosexual male relationship in the series had been depicted as being fairly unhealthy as well, so a lot of people thought Angel Dust’s situation was being poorly done due to how weirdly Stolas and Blitzo’s relationship is handled
I feel like people on Twitter have a dangerous lack of ability separating fiction from reality and it’s scary to see, having a thing for dark kinks in no way aligns with wanting those dark things to happen in reality, or negates your ability to tackle those dark things in a serious tone outside of the kink
@@kawaiinekozombie1347 I do 100% agree with you, but I can also see why promoting a pin set that has your characters trapped in controlling and abusive situations the "angst pin set" can rub people the wrong way
The angst pins were created by a fan, not a storyboard artist. But said storyboard artist did comment on them.
@@NoGoodClownWhore Thank you for the correction! Honestly the way I saw it censored the username of the original post it was retweeting so I believed it was the artist posting the pin information. I'll update the OG post with the correct information.
Also worth noting that the pins were made by an SA survivor themselves who used art as a coping mechanism for trauma.
I do think that a lot of vivziepop works suffers from not knowing what is supposed to be a joke and what shouldn't, like they want tackle s/a on a more serious approach and how it breaks victims both mentally and physically, but then 1 episode later they are doing a s/a joke like nothing happened.
But yes the overall twitter mob mentality, wich nobody has theit critical thinking to judge something on their own is really harmful
It's genuinely baffling how they let that slide in the latest episode 😐
@@cheery_cherrys literally , like this scene was just 1 episode apart from the Angel Dust one, like the writers really seems to not be able to decide which topic should be treated seriously and what's going to be a dark joke
@@a_naotenhonome780 It really sucks because the joke WAS funny (imo) but then they just... 🤦♀️
@@cheery_cherrys i thought the joke was funny too, tho the episode they decided to put in and how they executed...like you just showed how s/a is really harmful so you shouldn't joke about it this early
Ok I'm glad somebody said this bc Helluva Boss has the exact same problem
Honestly, my biggest gripe with the series is that SA/SH is kinda used as a gag in episode 6. It felt like fucking whiplash to see Angel’s situation be taken seriously & done (imo) in a thoughtful way, then for Sir Pentious being dragged into a room against his will be played for laughs.
Yeah they def shoot themselves in the foot with that one
I didnt react because my brain kind of filled in a justification: « oh there’s no way they would treat it as a joke if something bad actually happened so Pentious escaped without harm » but it is weird.
@@Krantzingoing I get that, but like...even still, it is kinda fucked that they implied it got that far. Especially since there was a prime opportunity for an actual bit that, if not funny, at least doesn’t play SA for giggles (like, instead of the crowd cheering for a third time, there's cricket noises, or Pentious DOES get a number of eager suitors & he has to awkwardly turn them down, wasting his time with Cherri).
Hazbin Hotel & Helluva Boss’s reception online is so unbelievably polarizing
Usually it’s the fandom that’s toxic most of the time
No, it’s the Hatedom this time around
Brax the peps you encountered that were getting on your case that night were a very loud vocal group of people that absolutely despise Viv and want to destroy everything she has to her name
They weren’t using media literacy skills? Yeah, probably because they didn’t have the care or respect to with the agenda they’re trying to push
Its just a bad show
@@Mugoflighterfluid Point proven
The fandom is WAY too intense, and the show isn't even like good, it has tons of flaws so when people try to sell it to you like THE NEW AGE OF ANIMATION, of course people are gonna have even more negative feelings about it
Tl:Dr this is cope
replies proves these comment's point ngl lol
"Loser, Baby" reminds me of "Schadenfreude" from Avenue Q so freaking much, I might even make an AMV for it someday. What's funny about this to me is that "Schadenfreude" is far less supportive than "Loser, Baby", but the energy is essentially the same, and it's pretty absurd that people are taking "Loser, Baby" so literally when it's clearly an incredibly supportive song.
They see the title and then make up their opinion
Survivor here. Relating to angel is very comforting. They did nothing wrong here.
I became hyperseggsual after the fact as a cope. I feel him.
Are you doing better now?
@@cheyblake2475 it has been many years now so I am doing a lot better yes, thank you ❤
but then you asked for help and grewout of it right?
@wyltedleaves And I think that misconception you outline seems related to people forgetting SA is far more about power disparity than the act of sex.
@@maffe_distroyer ew ur a weirdo. why are u asking people such personal info? like thats really gross
Nope. Nope. I'm a SA survivor. A SW. A DV survivor. Attempted murder at the hands of a partner.
This episode made me cry. So hard. So long. I felt seen.
And everyone who has a problem with that can use their own personal fucking feelings to hate on it.
They can't use ME to criticize it because any ego so insanely large it feels it can speak for an entire demographic can choke on it and literally experience their tongue rotting out of their face.
When I watched the pilot, I knew Angel would have more depth than everyone else. There was one point where Angel and Charlie were the only characters in a room, and Charlie was dejected. For a brief moment, Angel's smile disappears, and he reaches towards Charlie's shoulder in the hopes of comforting her...only to quickly retract it, resume his smile, and be snarky again. You could tell he _wanted_ to comfort her, but didn't know how. Learning his history, he knows what it's like to feel this low, but he doesn't know how to comfort others because no one was there to comfort him.
Part of what makes me disturbed about the constant discourse that Hazbin Hotel "fetishizes abuse" is that the people making it cannot know whether the people who worked on the show have been abused or not. I've been impressed by the complex and nuanced portrayal of abuse of all sorts in the show, it strikes me as being written by people who are informed on the topic and possibly even experienced abuse themselves. Every time people accuse the show of "fetishizing abuse" I think about that time Lindsay Ellis wrote "The Rape Rap" after her own sexual assault as a form of humorous catharsis to process her trauma, and then it was published without her consent and people wanted her crucified for writing it. I'm very afraid these haters will end up re-traumatizing actual abuse victims who will be forced to tell their abuse stories to get the harassment to stop.
This is the one that I can't get out of my head, because a significant number of the people I know who are into consensual non consent like it BECAUSE they've gone through some form of SA. It lets them recontextualize and reclaim that horror in a scenario where they have complete control.
Spoilers for the latest Hazbin episodes if you haven’t seen them.
I felt the joke about Sir Pentious getting r*ped was super awkward and felt out of place in a show that wants to take SA seriously as a topic. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
This isn't the first time they did it. Moxxie got sa'd in helluva boss and it was played for laughs.
Spoilers for the latest Hazbin episodes if you haven’t seen them.
Everything about Sera’s decision to purge hell is justified by the behavior of the demons in hell as they’ve had their chance and still continue to cause problems. Sera is portrayed in this really bad light when Charlie showed know tangible evidence of a soul in hell being redeemed
Except you can and you're obviously too stupid or too sensitive to understand that very easy to understand concept thats been going on through literal life since the dawn of time.
Making dark humor and tackling serious subject is like juggling with one thousand torch on fire, it’s super difficult and can pretty easily backfire on you
Yeah, this was so weird. And the writers do shit like that constantly. For example, in helluva boss there is a running gag where blitzo and Luna call Moxxie fat. To the point where Moxxie eventually becomes insecure about his weight, something the show wants us to find funny. But in the latest episode, Mammon makes a comment about Fizzarollis' weight and the show wants us to take this very seriously and see it as a sign that Mammon is being abusive. This seems to be a very annoying pattern
I am a SA survivor. SA abusers are not all knowing, they are not all confident, they are not all serious, they are not all smart. SA abusers are normal people who find themselves or put themselves knowingly in a situation where they can benefit from another person sexually without taking the others person's feelings safety or autonomy into account.
While I'm not a SA survivor that copes the same way Angel does, the relationship between Angel and Valentino feels very real, and I can relate to it personally. I personally loved the song, and the interactions because It made me feel seen. It made me feel like I'm justified in my trauma; because again; not all SA abusers are Smart confident or all knowing.
My SA abuser certainly was not any of those things. He was a easily tricked, sad, depressed man, who thought abuse was the only way to keep me, and was constantly creating situations or taking advantage of situations in where he was the only one I could turn to.
People who can't handle seeing or are disagreeing about the relationship or the song are 100% valid they aren't 'snowflakes' for not viewing or engaging with it, people will get triggered by different things and that's 100% valid and honestly healthy to separate yourself from it if you don't like or it triggers you. However discounting the people who do see it as a good representation and harassing other people over it is not valid it is not ok and everyone who has been doing so needs to take a long look at themselves
I like viv I think she is doing great work and feel she is genuinely trying, but I also feel like she really really needs to think about her posts more. The only thing I can "agree" with the "twitter mob" is viv isn't handling the situation well, the edgy jokes about the darker subject matter is honestly uncalled for insensitive and makes me uncomfortable and worried about how well its gonna be handled in the future.
hope youre okay now
I am ok now I’d think. I was very lucky, he had to move away for a couple months and I took that opportunity to break it off. Separating from my SA abuser was one of the hardest things I think I ever had to do I was terrified that he’d come back like he said he would.
I still have bad day’s thinking I’m going to open my front door and see him waiting there on the street for me again to drag me to his stupid car, days where I’m terrified to leave my house or go to the places around my town, but I know he can’t hurt me anymore, so I go anyway. The fear and trauma doesn’t completely go away, but it doesn’t completely control me anymore and honestly that’s all I could ask for.
I had friends at the time, but the ones that stuck around and the new ones I’ve made understand me and didn’t give up on talking to me, and I now have a fiancé that loves and respects me and I respect and love them so very much. While life still isn’t great mentally or physically right now, it’s not because of the people around me, I’m not being abused anymore. I think I’m the happiest I’ve been in a long time. It gets better. \(^-^)/
This is really interesting, because some people are arguing the same about the character Astarion from Baldur's Gate 3, arguing that his flirtatiousness/hypersexuality is a "damaging," "inaccurate," or "fetishistic" portrayal of male SA/abuse survivors' experiences. Astarion was written SO well and responds in a very common way that male survivors do, and the people criticizing or arguing that the depiction is fetishistic genuinely don't know what they're talking about and are speaking baselessly.
Really good explanation and take.
As I understand it I think people also percieve it that way because they hear his voice and assume that means he's a romanticized victim. I mean his voice IS attractive but he does it intentionally. becuase as mentioned, he's responding and acting in a way that truly happens for some survivors. not everyone's experiences are going to be the same. and as far as I understand as asterion interacts with your character, and if you begin a relationship with him, from what I understood, when he confesses, its a sign he's healing because he's been shown a true relationship. or something of that ilk. I still need to play for myself, I've just seen gamep;lay and most of asterion's dialogue and scenes and story
@@Its_Asteria pretty spot on! and another interesting thing to note is that if you do go down the romance path with him, he outright tells your character that he isn't comfortable having sex with you-- not because he doesn't want to, but because for so long it's been something he did without being able to properly consent to it, and he feels *icky* just participating in the action at all. If you pressure him into sleeping with you, he breaks up with you and tells you you violated him. It's incredibly heartbreaking, but a really good exploration of the healing process (and the reality that some people can be super, duper shitty and harmful to survivors).
This is why most people find it very difficult nowadays to voice their own opinions because they would either be a target of hate or brush aside like it was nothing.
Also people being expected to disclose very personal things about their lives to justify having an opinion about a piece of fictional media
i'm an abuse victim who plans on telling their own story through fiction in a way that's kinda similar to masquerade, and god is it frustrating feeling like all of this is a preview of the kind of shit i'm gonna have to deal with lol
Yup. First it was "you can't tell x story if you aren't x", and that was a slippery slope to "you can ONLY tell x story the way the mob demands". It's an 18+ show for crying out loud, nobody who doesn't know better will be watching it.
this but instead it’s how my character design looks a lot like vivzies but she got endless hate for giving too many characters bowties 😭😭😭 i think i’ll just keep them as ocs atp damn
Word of advice: use a different account than your main so people can't get personal info.
Also use the block button.
Same here like 😭 a lot of the shit I went through have been wedged into romance stories and I've seen fangirls go "THAT'S SO SEXY I WANT THAT TO HAPPEN TO ME" like no you don't??? Lmao I certainly didn't!
Imma be frank with you, this is 100% what you're gonna get hit with. It sucks immensely, of course, but it is inevitable. People lack any sort of media literacy these days.
the sequence with Poison in the show was incredibly unsettling due to the juxtaposition of the imagery of the mask and dissociation vs the flashes of fear and despair when it slips, all to this cheery pop style song which has harrowing lyrics if you listen to them. and thats the damned point. its a song that depicts the abuse he suffers and the coping mechanism he has to live with his reality.
its an amazing piece of media because it does such a good job unsettling the viewer.
The amount of lacking media literacy I see now that I'm more plugged into the internet is just breaking my brain. I literally this morning read/re-read something that essentially missed the basic concept of "What you like or write in fiction doesn't indicate your moral feelings in reality" and also over-exaggerated the situation, though that second one is from me using my own judgment of the context to compare, so I could be wrong.
It was, fittingly enough, about _Helluva Boss_ , _Hazbin's_ sister show. I love this video!!
The Twitter nonsense this is covering is WAY worse though, thinking that _that_ scene is "fetishizing" abuse?!!! Are people that say this literally out of their minds?!!!
The only thing that I could see as "victim blaming" is the lyrics "what's the worst part of this hell? I can only blame myself" which this song is from angel's perspective and as a victim of SA, we tend to blame ourselves no matter the situation until years later when we can see clearly. And even then I kinda blame myself
The problem is, victims of abuse definitely tend to blame themselves. Like, hell, I'd been abused by a narcissist and I still blame myself for it sometime.
My friend told me before I watched that episode that there is mentions of SA in it, and knew that I had a lot of triggers for this topic (as someone who experienced it sadly). But holy shit... I think Husk's song healed me in a level no medicine or therapist could do before, Poison became my absolute favourite because of its honest thoughts of what someone in a situation like Angel's would feel, and I could do a whole analyzing for both songs. But to put it short: Poison was the song that shows how someone who endures such events copes in unhealthy ways, and Looser Baby was the one that told you into your face that yeah...life can be miserable, but Im not alone and can find people who can relate and understand the pain, and that is a welcoming thought. Sometimes even I go overboard with the negative thoughts, but thats when I need people to tell me that Im in a low point and help me stand up. And thats what Husk did for Angel. He didnt feed into a lie that things are okey, because theyre not. He instead told Angel the truth, helped him open up, then helped him stand up and let it all out. People twitter are just causing drama for no reason once again
Yeah honestly I feel the same! Loser is def my fav and poison just hit so home in such an intensely personal way. I told my bf that poison says everything I don't tell you about my abuse. And as someone who's been through so much therapy and so much shit, loser baby is literally my song haha. I'm glad you found those songs to be just as impactful, especially the one about owning it and becoming better!
exactly i could put myself in angels shoes fact i basically was in angels shoes just last year and am now healing so it felt so good to see the amazing representation that episode gave, even if it did make me relapse, not that its a bad thing that it did but just showing the accuracy of the events and situations portrayed that angel went through and is still going through.
I saw someone once say, that art is supposed to make the comfortable feel uncomfortable, and the uncomfortable feel comfort, or smth similar. I guess episode 4 is that kind of art.
I'm an SA survivor, and I honestly loved Poison, even though I broke down sobbing at the end of it. It hits a little too close to home for me, and words cannot express how thankful I am to have seen it.
My fiance had to pause for a bit right after so I could just cry in his arms.
On the other hand, Loser, Baby was exactly what I needed to hear after that meltdown. It's upbeat, playful, warm, and just...friendly. Especially the self-depracating aspect.
Idk if I'm gonna be able to listen to Poison again outside of the show, but Loser, Baby has been stuck in my head ever since the episode dropped.
I love them both so much, but they're different kinds of love.
If humanity collectively deleted twitter we'd probably colonize mars in like a month
Musk, that your cue to delete Twitter
we'd have world peace in like a week
No we wouldn't lol.
its wild to me that people are unable to understand the message conveyed in Addict and Poison. It shows that many people dont know, dont understand, or refuse to understand that those are abused often put on a mask of being fine and yet are screaming on top of their lungs for help, but they look and sound like they're having a great life. The whole scene of Angel dancing in front of the monitors and he's yanked by the arm and pulled off screen by Valentino before the Angel on the monitor is in center view with a glamorous celebrity smile who blows a kiss with glitter and stars, is what is happening. The audience that Valentino sells to sees this cocky, hypersexual, and promiscuous, spider baby, when off screen he's being pulled and tossed around. The people who say that Addict and Poison is fetishtizing Angel's SA, are all falling into exactly what an abuser like Valentino wants to sell. The idea of glamor and a good time. They're falling for the Angel on the screen who blew them a kiss. They are only seeing and hearing what he, the abuser wants them to see and hear, he disguises Angel's distressed lyrics and cries for help through bright lights, glitz, glam, and a catchy pop song beat. You only hear the breaks in Angel's voice and distress in the last 13 or so seconds in the song when all the main melody with the loud instrumentals and percussion is gone, and all you got is the quiet harmony instrumentals of the song.
And the main lyrics even says "I've gotten so good at being untrue. I've got so good at telling you what you wanna hear."
These lyrics are not just talking about Valentino, but also people who refuse to see him anything other than the Pron Star Angel Dust and not Anthony.
Isn't that episode even called Masquerade? Its like right there
So fun story: I myself am a SA survivor and felt incredibly seen by how they depicted Angel’s abuse, particularly the line about if he destroys himself enough, maybe Val would let him go. I felt so seen I paused the show and cried for like 10 straight minutes. I mentioned this on tumblr, and I had some douchebag DM me accusing me of lying and that I was secretly getting off to the Poison scene.
These people are so fucked up and they think they’re the good guys
Honestly, having personal experience with the topic being discussed, i think its bloody ridiculous how people pitchfork anyone who disagrees with them nowadays. SA isnt a twitter topic to throw around and quote tweet insults at people. Its something that needs nuiance, civility and braincells. Goddamn.
I personally resonated with the poison scene incredibly, knowing what its like to bury that stuff under distractions and masks. Ive also been told "you dont act like an SA survivor". And it makes you think how one is *supposed* to act then? Its shallow minded, insulting, and ignorant.
Those people really need to stop talking and start listening for once.
(Sorry for the rant, i enjoy hazbin hotel and this specific twitter topic made me beyond upset.)
SA survivor here. Angel is such a good character to me. Other characters have had awful things happen before, and some more tastefully explored the topic than others, but I enjoy the raw portrayal of what happened and what continues to happen to him. Not the context of course it definitely makes me relive some things I'd rather not, but I do enjoy how they explore the subject matter. To pull punches in a conversation as heavy as having your personhood taken away from you not in part, but in full, is to take away that person's personhood once again, neglecting the care they need, and making the assumption that the people who go through one of the most heinous acts a human can commit want to be silent. I fucking adore Angel as a character because no matter how big we as victims talk, we are still victims, and it's never as easy as walking away. The people who haven't gone through it who think it's "uncomfy" clearly haven't stopped to think about how it was for the people who had to suffer it. Thank you JS for bringing light to this, it genuinely means a lot.
P.S: Twitter can kindly fuck off and burn.
as an sa survivor, i think this show is weird and how it depicts abuse is off-putting to me… am i cooked?
No. You jusst have an opinion. I am also an SA survivor, and I felt seen by Angel. It was depicted amazingly to me.
@@Tomb-Wraith thank you for understanding i respect your opinion entirely
Ayo, I didn't ask to see that 13 reasons why scene 😭😭😭
Honestly same like Jesus Christ wish he didn’t replay that over and over
thats my only complaint abt this video. absolutely was unnecessary and was pretty upsetting actually tbh lmao
I actually understood Husk was saying but didn’t enjoy the approach to the song, but honestly I completely see both sides to the topic (note I’m a survivor myself), I cannot criticize victims who weren’t offended and actually identified with Husk’s song.
With that said, I think Vivziepop giving Angel Dust’s abuse scenes to someone who thinks his sexual trauma is sexy (and even references one of their comics for their “rape ship”) was a bad move. I think making sex jokes about his music video was a bad move. I think blocking survivors and accusing them of “ignoring SA victims” when many of the people who are critiquing her were ALSO victims was a bad move. I think neglecting to put a sexual assault trigger warning until a week after it aired was a bad move (although I blame Amazon more for this). I think her making a rape joke with Pentious in her more recent episode while insisting she takes sexual assault seriously was a bad move.
Honestly I think if Viv just ignored the criticism and allowed the episode to drop instead of snapping at her critics both on twitter and threads, she’d come out more reasonable.
Its a show about hell that includes sinners from every branch including murderers if youre triggered why watch it ? People look way to far into it its just a show for entertainment purposes. i highly doubt that vivziepop and or amazon did these things to deliver a bad message on purpose.
@@doesfireburn8532 His point is that Vivziepop handled it badly and responded poorly to criticism
@@doesfireburn8532the problem isn’t the content itself but how self righteous Viv acts on Twitter claiming she isn’t trivialising SA while making it the punchline for multiple jokes. Once you include SA in a story and expect the audience to take it seriously you lose the right to make ANY jokes about it. It’s completely tone deaf. “It’s hell!” isn’t an excuse for all of the shoddy writing that led to this point.
@@CHECommonHumanError And my point is that people are way to sensitive about everything
@@doesfireburn8532 you again missed it, its not the content its how vivzie wants it to be taken seriously then immediately makes jokes about it, pick one lane or the other but you cant have both
And im still just amazed they got kieth david on board with it
He's probably enjoying playing a snarky asshole.
his voice does fit Husk to be honest so that may be it?
Tbh im an SA survivor too but the "Poison" sequence was too much for me to handle. Im perfectly aware of how hypersexuality is a common coping mechanism, and I can accept that, even if its not what I use.
I think the bigger problem here is that Viv tends to be extremely tone deaf in the way SA is depicted on this show and Helluva Boss as a whole. I mean... two episodes after Masquerade, there's a joke implying Sir Pentious is SA'd...
That’s my exact problem as well. Like Viv wants to tackle mature subjects like abuse but also wants to use abuse as a joke when it’s convenient. I don’t think Viv is purposely trying to disrespect abuse victims, but she needs someone to point out how uneasy it makes people when you make abuse jokes in a show that violently depicts that very abuse.
Two things can exist at once you know. Making an extremely mild joke with that Sir Pentious scene (that isnt even about SA, its about him awkwardly flirting and backfiring) doesn't automatically trivialize the times the topic is taken seriously. That argument will only ever work in cases where Angel is made a tasteless joke out of since he's the character that actually deals with a serious depiction of SA, like Viv's bad tweet promoting Poison.
Whats even weirder is some of the shit viv gets into regarding SA. She absolutely romanticizes it to some degree and that makes me kinda sick lmao
@@xaiiphon This. It makes me sad seeing people hating one of the funniest jokes of this show with literal textbook buildup and such perfect payoff because they can't differentiate the tone between two different scenes of two characters. They do this same thing with the Moxie joke at the beginning of Spring Breakdown and it also is unfair.
@@bassbot1286 I feel more context is needed otherwise your statement isn't valid. because you're making a claim that she romanticizes it without clarifying where you find that information and how it proves that.
I appreciate how even though you don't like the show, you still defended it from bad faith criticism.
The funniest thing is in that thread I saw someone called you a Viv Stan, that is really funny given your history with her like not even 2 weeks earlier but also in that tread it was a review that I would not call praising
I am an SA survivor, and I thank you for making a video. The amount of stuff I have heard about how this is 'glorifying' or 'romanticizing' has made me so angry. I have been a fan of this show for years, it helped me through that exact trauma I mentioned.
With Loser, baby I showed my own therapist it and she said it has good intentions. She explained it me like how you did, it is amazing how, DEAD media literacy is with Hazbin Hotel. It really hurts me since this show is such a comfort thing for me and so many others. The amount of people who have also shut down SA victims who are Hazbin fans is devastating. I have seen people get threats for just watching the show who are victims.
This video is a wonderful, well done and thank you for your support to victims
I'm sorry you had rhis experience. The hazbin fandom (includes me) is messy and sensitive, this is caused by the show's large hatedom which is known for making up drama (like the merch stuff), and spam dming people animal gore vidoes. It's bad, especially on twitter, hope you watch and enjoy the finale.
Animal gore? Why?
@@kimifw58it’s twitter? I’ve been sent some messed up shit on twitter for agreeing with a tweet
because some people shouldn't have an internet connection to begin with.
because some people shouldn't have an internet connection to begin with.
@@kimifw58 its a common thing for people to do towards groups they hate. it happened to dream fans that weren't the same as stans, it happened to fans of security breach/SB ruin dlc when a popular streamer said it was boring and another person told him he's wrong, two separate opinions, and said streamer's fanbase went after this other person with sending gore videos and threats.
it wasn't very pretty.
its really hypocritical when you think about it too.
Also to be fair in regards to the pacing and tone, this series was originally written to be 14 episodes longer. Part of why it took so long for the show to be released was that they had to condense 22 episodes down to 8 and make sure it still hit all the plot points needed for the season 2 story board.
I personally have been putting off watching Hazbin just for this episode as a survivor myself but I’ve heard there’s really no warning before the episode starts and that makes me extremely nervous and the other thing that makes me uncomfortable is the artist who storyboarded it along with viv joking about it that’s totally not ok at all :/
Other then those things I really do want to watch the show since I’ve been following it for a long time so if anyone has the time slots it starts and ends I will gladly watch the show but until then I’m avoiding it completely
If you want to skip the entire section of ep 4 including Val beating Angle Dust, Charlie being kicked out, and the POISON music section, it's 7:31 to 11:46
i got you, it’s episode 4(the episode now has a tw at the beginning), the scenes start at 7:31 and end at 11:52
in episode 8, angel faces valentino again and he stands up to him this time but is still hurt, there interaction begins at 15:44 and ends at 16:54
hope this helps!
There is a warning now, I rewatched the show recently and they fixed it
I’m starting to understand why we take English classes.
This made my laugh good job
Fr, I have a newfound appreciation for English in high school
Suddenly the unit we did covering and analyzing Romeo and Juilet doesn't seem to stupid and time wasting after all. Good grief.
I'm an SA survivor (25 now, 19 when it happened) and I'm actually thankful for episode 4. I saw a lot of myself and my situation in Angel, and it made me realize that I'm not as okay as i thought I was, and that I've been putting on an act to cope in the same way Angel does. It actually helped me talk with a therapist about what happened to me, which is something I never thought I'd be brave enough to do until now.
And yet people forget that the show is set.
*I N H E L L*