Reduction Pottery Firings Don’t Always Go As Planned
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2023
- In which I attempt to reduce red iron paint to produce black on white pottery... Again!
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I Also appreciate the fact that you ARE accomplishing the Replication of the Archaeological Record of Black to Rusty Brown !
Well, that's for sure! And there is a lot of those colors in the archaeological record.
I admire your willingness to share your process with us.
Thanks, I am glad to do it
"The paint is a mess, and I'm going to fire it anyway." I love that.... and then for me, I'll take it out of the firing, and it will look even more of a mess, and I'll put it on my coffee table anyway. That's where I'm at in MY pottery journey. Lol
So much trial and error. And the errors are such an important part of this journey.
Yes, I'm the same way, you have to love your work however it comes out. Just keep learning.
❤️
One thing I've noticed is that some things just take longer than expected. I have wondered if the potters left the pots buried overnight. Thanks for the video I always learn something 😊
Could be, I think I will stick with the overnight method at least for awhile.
That makes a lot of sense. It was probably something of a ritual once they put the pots on fire. That's what I would do. Finding that special color in charcoal at night.
Your perseverance is inspiring, what a good teacher does is set the example.
Thanks Angela, there always seems to be more to learn.
i have started to watch your videos regularly and i love them
Thanks
Very interesting that reduced iron paint is one of the first pottery decoration method that shows up in the archeological record. It would seem logical that the firing techniques they used for getting reduced iron would have been the same/very similar as they had already been doing for pre-decoration pottery. So like the surface firing technique that you do for salado polychrome is a “newer” firing technology, right? Is that shallow pit fire you did what we see the older pottery firing methods looking like in the archeological record?
Accepting mistakes is learning
So true.
Very true ❤️
Glad to see you are still making videos andy. I think its awesome how many people got inspired by the spark of your wild clay endeavors ( myself included). I hope to be making some wild clay pottery soon and in large part it's because of your inspiration, and willingness to teach so many who want to learn. Much love ❤️
Thanks 👍
Perfect if you ask me! Thats exactly what I look for in a replica... You nailed this one big time as far as looking authentic! I know sometimes I am really aiming for certain results, and when it comes up short, I feel slightly let down... then I look at the piece the next day and realize how many things were even better than I could have done intentionally! Give it to the fire and let the fire decide!!! I love that canteen! I am relieved that it didn't spawl off the paint design... whew! We could chip the frame but monalisa still must smile!
Thanks Mark. Yes, I am happy with it, also as you say, sometimes a day or two makes all the difference between frustration and appreciation.
As an ancient guard of the Louvre Museum I find "chipping the frame of Mona Lisa" is an interesting but slightly frightening expression.
I actually love the mix of black and rust color of the mug. Not a success based on what you were trying for, but the result is way more interesting, and I'd much rather have that displayed in my house than black and white
I agree
You have been driving me crazy for the last several videos by taking it out of the earth too soon. I keep saying,”Leave it all night”!
😜
I think you’re on the right track now. I’m thinking, clean sand next time. I’m also wondering about using white ash to smother the pot. ?
The video is really useful, thanks. I had wondered about the timing for smothering. The learning continues.
You are welcome!
I have watched many many of you videos about making and firing ancient pottery. I tried to look up some terms that I heard from you and other southwestern concerning people's and histories.
I don't always understand some of the terms about different groups. One example is mimbres. It sounded like members. I looked it up trying to use the spelling I believed believed I heard. It wasn't till I was read a title that if memory is correct is what I wrote above. I wish you and others would included a terms spelling of terms that uneducated people like me don't know, with spelling and definition included.
For the most part I feel you do a great job of producing stuff that I understand. Thank you for you works and education that you share.
Sincerely
Mary Davis
That was exiting, I was glued to the screen. Beautiful pot!
Glad you found it entertaining.
Nice! Points for perseverance!!!
I've waited for a new video and here it comes
Thank you Sir
Thanks for waiting, I hope your expectations are fulfilled.
@Andy Ward's Ancient Pottery
Your channel is the best
I've watched most of your videos and I'm trying to watch all of them
I like how you explain small details
I like how you enjoy your job
I like how you put interesting information inside each video
I like everything about your channel
It is a wide and rich source for those who are interested in the pottey world
Keep doing your amazing work
Stay happy and healthy .
I think you might be on the right track. If it was the earliest form of pottery in the Southwest, that suggests that, at least from the perspective of ancient potters, the ones who were developing pottery for the first time in their society, it was the most obvious, convenient way of making pottery. Burying it overnight might have seemed quite logical to them, for any number of reasons, but one that occurs to me is that it may have been a common practice to bury fires in general when not actively using them. After all, living in the Southwest, they probably would have been concerned about the dangers of accidentally starting brushfires if they left a fire unattended, and they probably would not have wanted to use water to put out fires, since water would have been scarce. So burying fires as a safety measure would have seemed logical, and they may have developed such a custom for dealing with cooking fires, which they then might have transferred to their pottery fires. I don't know, of course, I'm just hypothesizing.
Some good thoughts here, thanks for sharing. There is a tradition of cooking food in smothered pits in the ground in the southwest too.
@@AncientPottery You're more than welcome. And that makes sense, because they would have used fires for cooking before they used them for firing pottery, so it stands to reason that they would have adapted techniques from the former to the latter.
Try mixing in finely powdered (think flour) charcoal into the paint recipe. The close proximity of the carbon in the actual paint will improve the reduction of red iron oxide to black iron oxide.
Interesting idea, I will give it a try
its perfect i love the dark spot ! starting a pottery class shortly in ontario im a knapper an sttone tool maker i make clay effigy pipes al so thank you for all you have shared !
Cool! Great channel!
You're welcome
Well done for persevering with the jar..great result in the end..i think it looks very authentic ..so many variables to come together to make right..leaving overnight and walking away ..oh my head would have been full with that till the next day..ive got a few pieces that deserve another go ..so watching your progression has given me drive to try again..
Perhaps trying a version of the upside-down fire might work as it burns cleaner and hotter.
Sorry if I should know this but I have no idea what an “upside down firing” is.
@@AncientPottery An upside-down fire is where you put the larger logs on the bottom ensuring there is no space between (or at the very least minimal space) and then you layer progressively smaller logs until you reach the kindling. You might be able to modify this method to fire pottery. Perhaps you could “house” the pottery inside it? It might be able to minimize the oxygen and cover the pottery as well.
Awesome results! This red to black to red is driving both of us nuts! But your getting some great results !
One step at a time, but you have to crawl before you can run.
that was very interesting, well done andy
Glad you enjoyed it
This has been really fun and informative to watch! The sheep is my favorite haha, it's adorable and a fantastic work of art! This being pretty much the first video I've watched from Andy Ward and learning anything about how the ancients made pottery. I'm very curious if perhaps using stones can help in the process for trapping oxygen or at least keeping the heat for a longer time.
Loved this, thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
Koodos again to you Andy ! The Struggle is Real ! I , ( we ) Can Feel your Angst in gettin this whole thing right ! I saw in the frames 16:46-47, something black fell from that smudged area on your awesome Black on White Canteen! Thank you again for taking the time to share your trials w/us as we hold our breath as well ! Keep up the Good Work !
You are absolutely right! I can't believe I edited that video and didn't notice that. It makes me want to drive back out there and see if I can figure out what that was, I can't imagine a piece of charcoal sticking to the pot like that.
@@AncientPottery
Plz let “us” know what you find if Yu do go back ther to check it out !
For iron oxide to turn black, carbon must take oxygen from it. My advice: cover the burning coals and the pot with an iron bucket and only then fill it with earth. Otherwise, you just cover the coal with earth, the coal goes out and all reactions stop.
I'm trying to learn how the ancient potters did it. They certainly didn't use an iron bucket.
@@AncientPottery ancient potters could use large vessels or their fragments. The main thing is that coal under a layer of earth can burn for a while
Thank you!
You're welcome
Not sure if youll see this but, big fan having never known anything about the subject before but finding great interest now.
Question: What glasses do you wear? I personally wear round glasses, have had several pairs, but neber been quite happy with any pair in terms of shape.
Yours are perfect, I'd buy a pair on the spot if you'd be willing to share where you got them, thanks for doing what you do!
Hi Andy, had a couple of thoughts, I don't have your experience with the history, but just a couple of things that occurred to me. Did the native people have fire gloves when these pots were being made? They might have, as they used leather for clothing. But I'm thinking, the tools they used for burying the pottery might have effected the way they un-buried the pots. It might make sense that they would leave it overnight, as you did the second time. My other question is this: might it be possible that all of these pots were made with multiple firings? You are likely going through the same process of discovery as the ancients, and maybe they found the need to do multiple firings for the process. Or maybe not... just some thoughts.
Thanks!
Thanks a lot Allen!
@@AncientPottery Its a pleasure ...also having trouble with smoked whites.....
Hey, i was wondering if you had already made a video on making pot planters or if you would consider making one. Im trying to learn how to make them instead of buying them from lowes or home Depot. I'm from South Texas and im hoping to find clay in my area using your video guides. Thank you for the content.
No but it's a good idea I will add to my list of video ideas. Thanks
By the way, even with the smudged spot, I thought it was a beautiful pot in both color and design.
Sorry. I don't always read the comments before asking questions that may hold answers to my question. Guess I need to start.
Thank you. I agree, I am happy, but also see room for improvement for next time. Making progress one fire at a time.
I enjoy how you show the process of learning these old techniques, and explain how and why things went wrong. The pot turned out nice, despite a few areas where it was still slightly red. I actually like the variation on color. Does the pot have a lid or a cork? It looks like you can wrap leather cord around the knobs at the top, so it can be carried, is that right?
Colors of flame must be indicative of temp. Maybe use a digital thermometer and cover at various temps that have yielded the desired results.
Yes, that's exactly the case, I looked it up, those blue flames are hotter than orange flames. But also, and I think this is the most important thing, the blue flames indicate complete combustion of carbon. So when you see blue flames less carbon is being released to get absorbed by the pot.
Orange (natural) flames always produce soot. Great for ink making`and staining surfaces.
Hi Andy, I rewatched the part about you fireing the sheep pot, that seemed like a clue. You buried the pot with a LARGE POT over it.
When I did Raku, I pulled the pot out of the kiln and placed it on a bed or sand with some sawdust or paper then used a garbage can to cover it. I pushed and wiggled the garbage can in to the sand to keep the air out. Maybe try using the large clay pot over it again. I think the important thing is to keep the air out and burying it just isn’t cutting it.
When I get really stuck when I do Genealogy, sometimes I go back to a completely clean slate and go back to the beginning and start over. Like what is oxidation? What is reduction? How do other potters get reduction?
I didn’t fire the kilns at school, but I know it took 3-4 days to fire the big reduction kiln, when it got up to temp they pushed fire bricks into the air holes to get reduction. I do not know the particulars…
Could you make a large pot with extra extra grog or sand in it, kind of like making a firebrick but a pot, not a brick?
Another thing, maybe it is something you are missing in the white clay slip - glaze or in the black slip glaze. Are there any natural frits they could have used? A slightly different mineral ingredient? Did Indians have any soda to be a frit or maybe salt???
These are all just ideas. I hope they help. Wishing your next firing goes well. I love what you are doing and admire your persistence!
Thanks, I appreciate your perspective and out of the box thinking. Have you seen this video where I tried salt and other fluxes with paints? th-cam.com/video/T43SPssR1VI/w-d-xo.html
No, but I will look.
Interesting video Andy! Fun to watch others reduction experiments. Interesting with using sherds after the firing to bury too, I think if I tried that, mine would have exploded, haha. That second firing was a lot better! Can't wait to see more of these experiments!
Thanks Will. I am getting ready for a trip so way behind on emails, hopefully this video answers a few of your questions.
@@AncientPottery it did thank you!
If this was some of the earliest style Pottery in the southwest, I have to assume that anthropologists/archeologists have looked into other cultures either in South America, Mexico, or in other places (that the southwestern tribes may have originally migrated from) to see if there are other examples of a similar technology.
Interesting thought that I hadn't considered. When I made my white ware pottery video last fall, I looked around and found that black on white pottery was quite rare everywhere else in the world, but there may be some in Mexico that I have not heard of, there is a lot of archaeology down there. th-cam.com/video/OPMfeDJh37Q/w-d-xo.html
I know my comment won't address the ancient methodology but, in modern firings done like this would a washtub over the firing before burying maybe help to reduce the possibility of smudge spots? Just curious.
Could be. My metal pot smothering a few months ago and Wes's in March turned out great.
Would the firing be as effective if you had a larger container to put the pots in, a cap or lid to keep out oxygen that would still get hot from the fire piled around it?
Thank you for sharing every step of this experience. What do you think made the second fire go better? I thought you were covering the first fire very late and you pulled almost away all the wood. I always cover the fire while it is the hottest, but my results vary a lot, probably because of the wind.
Buried deeper and left to cool longer. Otherwise the fires were fairly similar in atmosphere and temperature.
I have the feeling that they probably used some kind of saggar when firing the pots so that they avoided having physical carbon (sooth) stick to the pots. The oxide should react with CO and CO2 that will flow in the protective housing at those temperatures (though I'm no chemist so don't quote me on that).
Great idea but there is no evidence that the people of this are ever used sagars. Although I agree that would be a better option for getting the results I am after.
The extra six inches of charcoal might contribute to a consistent, ideal thermal mass, and/or improve the oxidation 🤷 or simply pre-heating in the pit with the charcoal helps on it's own? 🤔
Hello Andy, i am new to pottery and fell in love with your channel and views on the matter - i have a question. I have found and processed wild clay, but i have used it all, so i am looking at buying some clay. Should i go for earthenware or stoneware, do you think?( i am not going til glaze it) Thank you From Alba
Thanks. I think earthenware will probably do better at the low temperatures used for primitive pottery but some stonewares will work fine. Have you watched this video yet? It might give you some ideas for clays that will work well. th-cam.com/video/n1zwTqlu4GI/w-d-xo.html
Hey Andy, seems like you've got exposed red ferric oxide on the outside of this finished pottery, while what you want is black ferrous oxide. Why not just toss the whole completed, fired vessel in a pot of boiling water to covert it, as in the rust bluing process for finishing steel? Are you just avoiding that cause it might not be authentic? Immersion in boiling water is a quick, easy, and highly effective means of converting red to black rust.
😎 👍🏼
Hi Andy - I hope you can help me. I had some bowls spall during firing and when I broke one apart the inside of the wall was completely black. The outside of the clay was a lovely tan color as usual but I don’t think I’ve ever paid attention to the interior. Is this a result of firing time? Any ideas? I really need to figure this out. Thanks!!
It's just unoxidized carbon, not a big deal.
@@AncientPottery thanks so much!
👍
What happens if you dust the surface of the pot with fine coal powder before firing? Would it help keeping the atmosphere reducing?
No idea, it might be worth a try
Ancient peoples probably lived and stayed close to water.. Maybe they used sand to smother their fire. That would def be in line with your clean fill theory.
From my previous experiences, dirt allows a small amount of oxygen to leak through and sand even more, but yes, that would also make a cleaner fill. I will do some thinking and experiments on this subject so stay tuned.
Your the Bob Ross of pottery, that’s for being awesome. You’d make for great homeschool.
Pov: Your watching even though you don't have any interest in pottery, your just watching because it's whole some
Thanks for watching
have you tried lining the pit with clay?
No but definitely a good idea, thanks
Maybe try smothering the fire with a wet hide and covering it with dirt? That's how I'd try if I was experimenting as a prehistoric person
I have considered this. Any idea how to keep the wet hide from dripping water on the hot pot? Because one drip of water could cause the pot for crack.
@@AncientPottery I would say ringing out the hide or using the hide when it's damp, not dripping. A good modern alternative would be a fire blanket, no drips.
Always learn something from you...but...please don't perpetuate that horrible phrase "more than one way to skin a...." Too many people think stupidly, cruely about cats, and that doesn't help.
Oh ha, the stories I could tell you, but I better not.
@@AncientPottery lol
When I was a kid, I tried to throw a cat up to see if it would land on its feet and it did not....
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It kept a hold of my arm and ripped me up a bit... I still love cats though...😻
Really?
Thanks!
Andy ...having credit card snafu.....so you are the lucky one
apparently, thanks again Allen. I can send you a polishing stone or a scraper when I get home if you want.
@@AncientPottery Thanks but I am good......