This video was very helpful. I tried my new Cornwall IV in a more traditional position snd listened for a few days and then moved them the way that you outline. Very dramatic improvement in stage depth, width and sweet spot size. The other thing that was unexpected for me is that the tone was more mellow and relaxed. Overall no downsides that I can detect. Thank you!
Your placement recommendation is exactly what Klipsch recommended in their owner’s guides for their Heritage line 40+ years ago. I still have a copy from my La Scalas.
Cash2112 is right...I worked at Klipsch in the older days...Paul recommended the placement you describe here. If you got your speakers after he sold the company to his nephew, who knows...but Jim Hunter, Roy Delgado, and Kerry Geist surely stayed with the old standard. Thank you for making this video!
Another great example of conventional thinking going out the window. I did this on the weekend and although I need to fine tune things I noticed a massive difference right away. The “sweet spot” is now the entire length of the couch... so not just for me now but my guests get great sound as well.
I finally gave this a go yesterday. I found that in addition to your findings, placing the cross point forward of the listening position brought the center instruments like drums, vocals and bass into focus while defining and expanding the panned soundstage. It now sounds better regardless where I am in the room. So many variables to sound it's no wonder we get overwhelmed :)
I discovered this positioning myself also. You’ve explained it well. In a new house and new room I was getting frustrated with bad sound and mostly blaming it on the lack of acoustic absorption in the room until I found just about this same setup as you’ve demonstrated. I then realized that this toe-in angle was reducing the effect of first reflections if not eliminating it completely. And, as you’ve pointed out, the late reflections from the on-axis sound actually helps imaging (and I’m speculating that is true if the listening room is sufficiently large). My plan remains to add more broadband absorption in my room - an area rug at the very least - with the expectation that soundstage, imaging, and most importantly, clarity will improve even more. I should also add that I’m considering installing hidden casters within the bases to move the Cornwalls more easily - not so much for speaker placement experimentation but for aesthetic reasons - i.e., move them out of the way when I’m not listening so it’s not so obvious that they dominate the entire room.
This is one of the best, laymen’s term breakdowns on this topic I’ve found. It’s perfect for me as I’ve recently purchased Cornwall IV’s and have a difficult listening area. Many would say it’s too small an area. I’ve experimented with Toe In and distance and think it’s in a good spot now. Thanks!!
Great video and assessment for Cornwall owners. I've owned a beautiful pair of circa 1985 Corwalls for about 3 months now and have experienced similar results from my experiments with placement. My room is different, but similar results. Your mileage may vary.
Great idea to use dollies to get things initially easily dialed in for various circumstances! Loved, "If it's not convenient to do, you won't do it." 😀
When I addressed the gentleman's question in your Cornwall review video I talked about how the Klipschorn forces a 45 degree effective toe in and many people would think that is the main problem. But as you discovered, many horn speakers benefit from greater degrees of toe in than conventional speakers. The problem with the K-Horns is that because it requires corner placement the room corners dictate speaker positioning so the only option is positioning yourself. All the other Klipsch Heritage speakers give you more flexibility in placement which is one of their big advantages over the K-horn. Now, almost every horn speaker sounds better the farther back you can sit from it because the acoustic output of the speakers does not cross until much further into the room than with conventional designs. Extreme toe in helps decrease the distance you need to sit back from the speakers but pretty much every horn loaded system I've ever heard sounds best when the listener is several feet behind where one would sit when listening to conventional speakers assuming the same width of spacing. And that goes for Klipsch, JBL, Altec, Avant Garde, and Volti. But as you might imagine when the owners of these higher end horn systems can afford the speakers themselves they can afford the square footage, equipment and setup needed to make them shine. So if anyone was wondering, yes, the JBL Everest and Avant Garde Duo Nano are superior to the Cornwall's. But at more than ten times and roughly seven times the price respectively plus associated equipment you would expect them to be better. As for me, well, I'm not on JBL Everest footing by any stretch so the Cornwall or LaScala would have to suffice. And though I've heard the difference I wouldn't lose any sleep over that difference while still having at minimum 30k in the bank!
Thanks for tutorial, it's made an amazing improvement in my listening pleasure. What's more significant, is the margin for error with head movement: Before, a slight tilt of my head would have a noticeable effect, whereas now, I can wave my head, along with the music, and everything remains (more or less), constant. Cheers.
This worked perfect with my 1984 vintage Cornwalls. I almost gave up on them!!! I used the round plastic/foam furniture sliders which worked for me also. They slide on the carpet just fine and the small pedestal that the Cornwall has attached to the bottom of hold tight to the foam of the round discs. Thanks again!
Looks like I found your video 4 years later,LOL!Very good explanation and hope you are well.I just got a pair of the Cornwall iv speakers a few weeks ago.My room really sux and I have a big coffee table between me & the speakers.I really can't pull the speakers out more than a foot from the back wall and I have 2 rel subs between the IVs with my rack/amp/dac/TT in the middle.I am gonna try to toe them like you suggested.So far,the sound the best almost flat to the wall/listening area.Thanks again,TK
really interesting info, and some great tips. going to try setting up my non-horn speakers to cross in front of the listening position, and see how that sounds :)
They sound much better off the floor. My friend is a professional DJ and he has a pair. He had two wooden enclosed cabinets made just to place the speakers on top. He also placed them on corners. They sound awesome.
Very helpful, thanks. So much info out there, most pertain primarily to cone speaker boxes. Horns need different solutions. Also, using a laser measure helps a lot!
Great video! I'm just curious - what is your listening room size and how far from the front wall (short distance of the toe in and long distance from the toe out) and distance from the side walls and distance from your listening position from the speakers? Thanks.
THANK YOU for all the information provided in your Video. i'm learning a lot as i'm new to this . after watching your Demo. something bugged, and SORRY if i sound cocky and ignorant.. i just find it so hard to SIT STILL/FROZEN in a chair and listen to music ! . which means: turning my head right or left is not permitted !.. that's so hard to do as i have many other things to do when i come home like try to Relax/Cook/and have a Drink/Talk.......etc . BTW. you're not the only one with such Set-up. i've seen that in almost all videos . going by this rules ? it takes the fun right out of enjoying the music and this Hobby. besides. i don't have a special room to do this kind of set up. makes me wonder if i should forget all about this hobby cause i might be wasting many 1000s of Dollars on something i'm not getting the Max out if it. what say you ?. thanks again.
That counts, in my world, as a very helpful video! I've had a pair of early '90s Klipsch KG-3.2s for just a few weeks, and, as we are now living with our daughter and her family, working together to deal with the Coronavirus situation, it will be a while before I can test out your suggestions in my own listening room, but I am eager to do so. Steve Guttenberg, in his Audiophiliac channel, made a very brief note of your point about the helpfulness of having the "speaker aiming point" cross over in front of the intended listening position, but his words were few, and did not describe the dynamics of the situation in anywhere near the depth that you did. Subscribed, my friend, and looking forward to more to come, as well as seeing what you've already posted, that I've missed so far. All the best!
You are stumbling into what Bose found out long ago. Called stereo everywhere. I have a set of Bose 10.2 version 2’s and they work exactly as you figures out. They are quite nice. I have 4 different pairs of klipsch speakers and never toed them in.
Great video. Your recommendations are the same as Tannoy's. They say that it's best to have then crossing a little in front of your listning position. I tried it with mine and their right
Thank you. I didn't realize that Tannoy recommends the same speaker position that I like. I went into it open-minded. I tried everything and I listened carefully. Have fun experimenting. :)
@@thebostonaudiophile please don't take my comment as a put down. It was not ment that way. To cross the speakers in front of the listener is odd and nontraditional. Most wouldn't even try it and would immediately dismiss the idea as foolish. Which is probably why Tannoy document it as their starting point with their Prestige series. The fact that you have made a great video explaining simply why it could be the prefect set up on horn type speakers l commend you for. We all want to get the best out of our system. Thx for your help.
In my small apt. 15x12 ft. living room with an angled ceiling (8 ft. on the short end, and 11 ft. on the tall end) and my Klipsch Cornwall I's (placed on the longer wall) 9 ft. apart and 3 in. (inches not feet) away from the wall; pointing straight out (no toe-in or toe-out) and my sitting position 8 ft. away, to my ears, the Cornwall's sound really, really good. In my system, they are warm yet defined, and when the music being played calls for it, there's a sound-stage that has enough depth, height, and width that appears to push the sidewalls away. Voices sound natural and instruments linger in the air when they should and not as a contrived effect. I did experiment a little with toeing-in the speakers but did not get as good results as having them facing straight out. I suppose it's all a matter of the room and ancillary electronics. Associated stereo equipment: Lenco/Bogen L70 (idler drive) turntable; Jelco 750D tonearm with Denon DL-301 II MC cartridge. Nakamichi CDP-2A (TDA1541 dual DACs) cd player. Quicksilver Audio Remote Control Line Stage Preamplifier with Sovtek 12AX7 LPS tubes; Cambridge Audio Alvo Duo phono preamplifier. Audiosector (LM3875) Patek Amplifier SE (47 Labs Gaincard Clone) with a 300VA toroid power supply. Klipsch Cornwall I (3-way speakers, 1983-1984) refinished in black & white ebony veneer. Speaker cables: Monoprice Access Series 14 gauge. Interconnects: Blue Jeans Cable LC-1. Emotiva XIEC power cords connected to the Audio Sector Patek SE amplifier and Quick Silver Audio Remote Control preamplifier, and all - except turntable - power cords connected to a Tripp Lite Isobar surge suppressor.
I believe in toe-in but at some point the reflections get so variable that they cannot be held akin to how a billiards ball would behave on a pool table. Sound radiates in a full circle from its point of origin, and that would include its datum (starting point) and all subsequent points of deflection. And after a short while it becomes a bath of sound. However, I would hold with the theory that the most dominant "vector" would be that between the speaker and the listener.
Good day. I currently have pair of Klipsch RF7's. I have towed them in based on another vid I watched on you tube. And since I did that I hear a huge difference in the sound. I also pulled them to approximately 3ft away from the back wall. But It never occurred to be to experiment with them further. It's late and I cant sleep so that's why I'm even up watching vids in the first place. But i cant wait to try your suggestion out to se if the difference is noticeable. Thanks for the idea.
Really helped me position my Klipsch RP-600M speakers and get greater detail from them in the sweet spot seating position. It would help to list the site where you bought the Denafrips and also the site for the Schiit and which of the 4 DACs you are mentioning in the description details section of you vid. Good lighting and sound quality on you vids.
@@thebostonaudiophile Yeah, if treatment isn't an option, i'd try a thick rug at the very least. If you sit pretty close to the back wall, you will want a lot of absorption back there, otherwise maybe rig up a large/thick movie theater type curtain on that front wall and diffusion on the rear wall.. Grab a mirror and lay it on the floor and from your seated position to where you can see the horns, that's where the rug should cover.
Thanks, much appreciated. It may also apply to other speakers with a directional tweeter and midrange. IMO, the best thing is to experiment with your speakers and room and to keep an open mind.
How many feet away do you sit from the speakers to listen, please? Trying to plan out if these would fit my room and I could what your video recommends.
Paul Klipsch did have suggestions for Cornwall placement in-room that you can read about here: community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=47376 The reasons why you're not pushing the CW-IVs back to the wall (which extends and smooth deep bass response even further) are two fold: 1. You've got a discontinuity between the loudspeakers (the center electronics rack) that interferes with the smooth boundary of the front wall in the midrange band, and 2. You're probably not re-EQing the bass bins to flat response again after placing them in boundary effect. PWK did say that the bass extension also lowers bass distortion (bass modulation distortion and compression distortion), so you're getting the extra bass for free, and since the loudspeaker is within 1/4 wavelength of the front wall, there is no audible or measurable phase lag due to the wall reinforcement. If you move that electronic rack away from the center position to a side wall (farther than two wavelengths away at midrange frequencies), you'll regain the ability to push the CW-IV's back to the front wall and to re-EQ the bass to flat. This will further improve the sound quality overall. The above comment I make comes from the engineer that designed the Cornwall IV--Roy Delgado of Klipsch (and PWK's protege of horn design). Chris
My listening area is an acoustical treatment nightmare: Ptiched and lofted ceiling at about 20 feet high at the lowest point. Treatments on the walls are cost prohibitive for me, and I was frustrated with how my Quartets performed. Thank you for this video; though my toe-in is not as sharp as yours, the upper mid-range and high dithering and slapback has been significantly mitigated; I hear more of the recordings and the speakers rather than the room now. So, so grateful for your explanation. Additional question, if you've got the time: Could this strategy also be used for non-horn loaded speakers? I am thinking about getting my hands on a pair of NS-1000 or NS-2000s.
I can’t say, every room and speaker is different. No pairing is perfect but playing with placement, toe-in and basic room treatment (carpet, drapes, sofa, etc) can all yield big improvements for little or no cost. Good luck!👍
I did not know that. Thank you. It's not shown in the Cornwall IV manual, they just show the speakers with a little toe-in. I've heard Steve Guttenberg and others mention it. I'm not claiming to have invented it. I hope I didn't give that impression.
humbuckerpickups The Cornwall is not like the K-Horn that depends on the walls to act as part of the bass horn, unlike the Cornwall that uses a conventional direct radiator for the bass.
@@StewartMarkley I know, I have owned them. Not sure what your point is. I am talking about PWK's suggestion for extreme toe-in, I said nothing about corners.
@@MostlyBuicks Oh, I thought that you were referring to the fact that K-horns must be in the corners whereas the Cornwall's can be moved about. Anyway, I would prefer the flexibility of the Cornwall's to be positioned to achieve the best compromise of room acoustics for smoother bass.
You’re very welcome. Yes, Forte and Cornwall have very similar sound dispersion so yes. In the end, just experiment!, as every room is different and we all have different preferences.
So...you are describing a speaker that only supports one-seat listening in this room with a relatively short throw to the MLP; not a speaker that has a listening window that provides good coverage of a listening area in this room. Is the coverage of the waveguide(s) so narrow that this speaker must have an extreme toe-in that you describe? If so, this is clearly a speaker suitable only for stereo listening from one symmetrically positioned seat. Not a speaker for a larger advanced home theater system behind an AT screen. No AT screen could handle that much toe-in. I suppose that a longer throw with L/R spread around 45 degrees that would permit coverage of the listening within the speaker's listening window would be a proper HT LCR design for this speaker. It appears that the throw in this room is so short that the speaker cannot cover more than one seat. It comes down to your target priority: nominal for one seat or nominal for an area (more than one seat).
Hello! Would you recommend this for a 5 channel surround? I have the Klipsch RP series and I was wondering if this would be ideal for the fronts and surrounds. if it is should the surround’s axis be behind the listener? Also which step should be first: the position or the level matching with a dB meter? Thanks.
Thanks for your question. Unfortunately my knowledge is limited to two channel audio so I don't want to guess on surround sound applications. Maybe you could ask Klipsch?
The Boston Audiophile Thanks. I actually moved them all (besides the center) as per your recommendations and Wow! What a difference. Instruments and voices sound much more natural and lifelike. There’s also more detail and a wider sweet spot. I was hesitant to move them initially because I thought they fine, but it only went up from there. Thank you for this video.
Checking acoustic variations using your speaker dolly is convenient. But unless you plan on keeping the speakers on the dollys it will not give you a true representation of the various positions. Because placing them back on the floor will also alter the dynamics. Especially the bass. A preferable method might be to use a two wheeled hand cart, checking each position as you would actually use them. You may be missing out on a sweet spot that you might not recognize with the dollys.
Bees toe Lowering the speakers to the floor would have some effect on the bass but not very much. The technique is a very valid way to find the best position for the speakers. Moving the speakers horizontally has a much greater effect on the bass than lowering them a few inches to the floor.
Try Dynamat for the backside of the plastic horn and upgrade the tweeters with Titanium diaphragms. Has turned my KG-4 into a completely new speaker. Different angle just makes for a different point where the reflections hit the side.
@@Majoox1999 I upgraded the diaphragms and crossovers, but I've since sold them on, as I was never able to get them far enough away from the wall behind them, due to the size and configuration of my listening room. I replaced the m with a pair of KEF 103.3 which I much prefer.
Please, I am an old B&W listener, looking for new speakers and I want to hear the Klipsch Cornwalls and the Forte IV, respectfully, are horn speakers as exact and and precise as say Totem, Focal, B&W, and Sonus Faber? These have great reviews and I want to listen to all before I buy. On this system, they will be powered by a Classe 300 watt amp or a new NAD M33 200W integrated. Thank you for help in advance. BTW like these others stated this was a great video put into lay terms, very helpful.
Good questions. A single listener will still benefit by not having that need to have your head clamped in the center issue, plus there's a more even sound distribution … in my room anyway. You can move the speakers a little closer to the sidewalls to increase the soundstage width. With the extreme toe-in, you typically won't need as much distance from the side walls. But it's really a matter of experimentation.
@@locmanw1583 I auditioned the LaScala II's, not the current Al5. It was very hard to decide between the LaScala II's and Cornwall IV's. I was blown away by the LaScala in several ways, yes the midrange is great, but the bass is less deep than the Cornwalls, so I thought I wouldn't be happy with the LaScala's without sub woofers … still I sometimes wonder. Both excellent speakers! Perhaps someday I'll buy La Scalas and a stack of REL subs but that's getting pretty expensive and space consuming.
@@thebostonaudiophile Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Yeah La Scalas are getting up there! I don't need too much bass. But my listening space is small too. I was thinking of the Heresy IV. Are the mids as good as the Cornwalls?
@@locmanw1583 I haven't listened carefully to the Heresy IV so I don't want to say too much about them as that's the only way to really understand a speaker IMO. I doubt the midrange of the Heresy's are as good as the Cornwall's, but if your budget or room size is limited, they may be the better choice. I plan to do a full Cornwall IV review where I'll discuss these tradeoffs further.
@@thebostonaudiophile does that dolly give you enough height to be at correct listening position? I have forte iii and wondering how high I would need for stands or a dolly.
@@thebostonaudiophile Thanks! Would you be able to share the dimensions of the base? I believe it's 24.5" x 13" but I want to confirm. I want to possibly build my own to more exact specs. Thanks :)
Nicely done video But with all the ocd placement, toe in, room acoustics, sweet spot seat position issues, I wonder if it is better to just go with Abyss 1266tc class headphones and attached gear, especially if most of your listening is 2ch and solo, alone That said, it appears compression drivers and horns are back with a vengeance, as all the high end home theater guys go jbl synthesis, klipsch, or diysg setups with horn. Compression drivers
Frank Wong, I have not audition the Heresy III so I can’t do a compare, but I did audition it against Forte and La Scala and ends up writing the following on Amazon... Leagendary... Just got a pair from a guy who brought it but then want to let go of it because he spotted a pair of La Scala. He had a pair of well burn in Forte already. When I saw it on FB market place, I jumped on it and also had a chance to audition it together with a older Forte and the La Scala... Forte and the La Scala was well broken in. The Heresy IV is almost new, just a few hours usage. The Forte sounded more open and La Scala blown everything away ‘cause it’s a total different class. The Heresy wasn’t bad at all but a little short of the other two at the audition. Amp used was a Yamaha Receiver with Forte and Heresy and a Yamaha DAC for the La Scala. I suspected at the time the Heresy needs some breathing room because of the rear port and the height needs to raised up a few inches. So I took them home and put them on dolly to add some height, leave them some breathing room from the wall. They sounded very natural from the get go with nice image and there are plenty of base to go around, no needs for a sub. With the raised height my ears told me they can match the well used Forte in terms of open feels. The base and vocals, as my wife like to put it, married, as compare with the run of the mills spkrs that relies on sub to help and sounded much more musical and realistic. I am pushing them with two Marantz monoblocks with tube buffered the phono/CD/Blue Tooth 4.0 and running burn in tracks from TH-cam. It should open up the sound stage a lot more but that will take time. If I have a chance I will revisit this post and give a impression on after the burn in is done. Given the price I paid, a win for the seller and I. Things I would do.... 1. Try raising them up a few inches 2. Keep them away from the wall and let them breath (I suspect Heresy 3 may not have that issue)
Friend, your experience can help me, please help me decide which one I buy for the most HI END sound, which one you recommend, the Cornwall IV or the RF-7 III I want to enjoy the best sound, I have at home Pre Amplifier and Power Onkyo and Cd Player Rotel, please tell me which one will give me better sound quality, thanks friend.
You bring up a good point. I'm open to the idea that almost anything can impact the sound. The added height also raises the midrange and tweeter horn, which works with my listening chairs, but may not for lower chairs. Maybe at some point I'll try a more solid base ... once I'm 100% sure of the speaker placement.
@The Boston Audiophile From my own experiences, Heresy sitting on a dolly works very well and brings the firing angle of the horn inline with the listening level, it opens up the sound.
AS FAR AS MOI IS CONCERNED.. THE PLACEMENT OF THE SPEAKERS IS ALL IMPORTANT SO THAT YOUR NEIGHBORS KNOW YOU EXIST AND THERE'S NOT A DAMN THING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT
@@thebostonaudiophile I am a Forte IV owner so it wasn't a Klipsch hater thing at all. I will definitely concede you know your room better than I do. TURN IT UP AND ROCK ON. Just don't pull a muscle moving those beasts around. LOL 😆
This video was very helpful. I tried my new Cornwall IV in a more traditional position snd listened for a few days and then moved them the way that you outline.
Very dramatic improvement in stage depth, width and sweet spot size. The other thing that was unexpected for me is that the tone was more mellow and relaxed.
Overall no downsides that I can detect.
Thank you!
Your placement recommendation is exactly what Klipsch recommended in their owner’s guides for their Heritage line 40+ years ago. I still have a copy from my La Scalas.
Thanks for the info. It's not what's recommended in the instructions that came with my speakers, but I realize I'm not the first to try it.
Cash2112 is right...I worked at Klipsch in the older days...Paul recommended the placement you describe here. If you got your speakers after he sold the company to his nephew, who knows...but Jim Hunter, Roy Delgado, and Kerry Geist surely stayed with the old standard. Thank you for making this video!
Another great example of conventional thinking going out the window. I did this on the weekend and although I need to fine tune things I noticed a massive difference right away. The “sweet spot” is now the entire length of the couch... so not just for me now but my guests get great sound as well.
He is wright
I finally gave this a go yesterday. I found that in addition to your findings, placing the cross point forward of the listening position brought the center instruments like drums, vocals and bass into focus while defining and expanding the panned soundstage. It now sounds better regardless where I am in the room. So many variables to sound it's no wonder we get overwhelmed :)
I discovered this positioning myself also. You’ve explained it well. In a new house and new room I was getting frustrated with bad sound and mostly blaming it on the lack of acoustic absorption in the room until I found just about this same setup as you’ve demonstrated. I then realized that this toe-in angle was reducing the effect of first reflections if not eliminating it completely. And, as you’ve pointed out, the late reflections from the on-axis sound actually helps imaging (and I’m speculating that is true if the listening room is sufficiently large). My plan remains to add more broadband absorption in my room - an area rug at the very least - with the expectation that soundstage, imaging, and most importantly, clarity will improve even more.
I should also add that I’m considering installing hidden casters within the bases to move the Cornwalls more easily - not so much for speaker placement experimentation but for aesthetic reasons - i.e., move them out of the way when I’m not listening so it’s not so obvious that they dominate the entire room.
I listen to alot of guys explain this technical stuff and get lost. But you have a great talent to communicate it to us laymen
Thanks, I really appreciate your kind words.
This is one of the best, laymen’s term breakdowns on this topic I’ve found. It’s perfect for me as I’ve recently purchased Cornwall IV’s and have a difficult listening area. Many would say it’s too small an area. I’ve experimented with Toe In and distance and think it’s in a good spot now. Thanks!!
Thank you. Glad you found it useful.
what is the size of your room? i have a small room too but is conisdering to buy this amazing speakers
I have to agree with your comment. The use of the mock up room really made this easy to understand.
Going to try this today with my Cornwalls. Very informative and your explanation is clear and concise. Thank you!
Great video and assessment for Cornwall owners. I've owned a beautiful pair of circa 1985 Corwalls for about 3 months now and have experienced similar results from my experiments with placement. My room is different, but similar results. Your mileage may vary.
Thank you. I'm working on a long, detailed review of the Cornwall IV's. Congrats on your Cornwalls!
Great idea to use dollies to get things initially easily dialed in for various circumstances! Loved, "If it's not convenient to do, you won't do it." 😀
Thanks!
When I addressed the gentleman's question in your Cornwall review video I talked about how the Klipschorn forces a 45 degree effective toe in and many people would think that is the main problem. But as you discovered, many horn speakers benefit from greater degrees of toe in than conventional speakers. The problem with the K-Horns is that because it requires corner placement the room corners dictate speaker positioning so the only option is positioning yourself. All the other Klipsch Heritage speakers give you more flexibility in placement which is one of their big advantages over the K-horn. Now, almost every horn speaker sounds better the farther back you can sit from it because the acoustic output of the speakers does not cross until much further into the room than with conventional designs. Extreme toe in helps decrease the distance you need to sit back from the speakers but pretty much every horn loaded system I've ever heard sounds best when the listener is several feet behind where one would sit when listening to conventional speakers assuming the same width of spacing. And that goes for Klipsch, JBL, Altec, Avant Garde, and Volti. But as you might imagine when the owners of these higher end horn systems can afford the speakers themselves they can afford the square footage, equipment and setup needed to make them shine. So if anyone was wondering, yes, the JBL Everest and Avant Garde Duo Nano are superior to the Cornwall's. But at more than ten times and roughly seven times the price respectively plus associated equipment you would expect them to be better. As for me, well, I'm not on JBL Everest footing by any stretch so the Cornwall or LaScala would have to suffice. And though I've heard the difference I wouldn't lose any sleep over that difference while still having at minimum 30k in the bank!
such a simple explanation for such a daunting topic. thank you for the video.
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for tutorial, it's made an amazing improvement in my listening pleasure. What's more significant, is the margin for error with head movement: Before, a slight tilt of my head would have a noticeable effect, whereas now, I can wave my head, along with the music, and everything remains (more or less), constant. Cheers.
Great! Glad you found the video useful. Thanks for letting me know it worked for you too!
This worked perfect with my 1984 vintage Cornwalls. I almost gave up on them!!! I used the round plastic/foam furniture sliders which worked for me also. They slide on the carpet just fine and the small pedestal that the Cornwall has attached to the bottom of hold tight to the foam of the round discs. Thanks again!
Good to hear that it worked for you. Thanks for watching!
Looks like I found your video 4 years later,LOL!Very good explanation and hope you are well.I just got a pair of the Cornwall iv speakers a few weeks ago.My room really sux and I have a big coffee table between me & the speakers.I really can't pull the speakers out more than a foot from the back wall and I have 2 rel subs between the IVs with my rack/amp/dac/TT in the middle.I am gonna try to toe them like you suggested.So far,the sound the best almost flat to the wall/listening area.Thanks again,TK
Congrats! Experiment and trust your ears.
@@thebostonaudiophile Just got them angled like you said and spaced them as further apart.Wow,much improved.Thx again,TK
Definitely opens up the listening area and gets rid of any harshness/glare.
really interesting info, and some great tips. going to try setting up my non-horn speakers to cross in front of the listening position, and see how that sounds :)
I like your style. keep em coming.
Thank you. I plan to.
Simple but very effective explanation. Thanks for the lesson!👌
They sound much better off the floor. My friend is a professional DJ and he has a pair. He had two wooden enclosed cabinets made just to place the speakers on top. He also placed them on corners. They sound awesome.
Very helpful, thanks. So much info out there, most pertain primarily to cone speaker boxes. Horns need different solutions. Also, using a laser measure helps a lot!
Great video! I'm just curious - what is your listening room size and how far from the front wall (short distance of the toe in and long distance from the toe out) and distance from the side walls and distance from your listening position from the speakers? Thanks.
THANK YOU for all the information provided in your Video. i'm learning a lot as i'm new to this .
after watching your Demo. something bugged, and SORRY if i sound cocky and ignorant.. i just find it so hard to SIT STILL/FROZEN in a chair and listen to music ! . which means: turning my head right or left is not permitted !.. that's so hard to do as i have many other things to do when i come home like try to Relax/Cook/and have a Drink/Talk.......etc . BTW. you're not the only one with such Set-up. i've seen that in almost all videos .
going by this rules ? it takes the fun right out of enjoying the music and this Hobby. besides. i don't have a special room to do this kind of set up. makes me wonder if i should forget all about this hobby cause i might be wasting many 1000s of Dollars on something i'm not getting the Max out if it. what say you ?. thanks again.
That counts, in my world, as a very helpful video! I've had a pair of early '90s Klipsch KG-3.2s for just a few weeks, and, as we are now living with our daughter and her family, working together to deal with the Coronavirus situation, it will be a while before I can test out your suggestions in my own listening room, but I am eager to do so. Steve Guttenberg, in his Audiophiliac channel, made a very brief note of your point about the helpfulness of having the "speaker aiming point" cross over in front of the intended listening position, but his words were few, and did not describe the dynamics of the situation in anywhere near the depth that you did. Subscribed, my friend, and looking forward to more to come, as well as seeing what you've already posted, that I've missed so far. All the best!
Thank you! Glad you found it helpful. Speaker position and toe-in makes a big difference. Don't be afraid to experiment. Try to enjoy the process!
You are stumbling into what Bose found out long ago. Called stereo everywhere. I have a set of Bose 10.2 version 2’s and they work exactly as you figures out. They are quite nice. I have 4 different pairs of klipsch speakers and never toed them in.
Wow just tested your placement video! You are right! It sounds better!
Very insightful and thought provoking, thanks!
You’re very welcome. Thank you!
Great video. Your recommendations are the same as Tannoy's. They say that it's best to have then crossing a little in front of your listning position. I tried it with mine and their right
Thank you. I didn't realize that Tannoy recommends the same speaker position that I like. I went into it open-minded. I tried everything and I listened carefully. Have fun experimenting. :)
@@thebostonaudiophile please don't take my comment as a put down. It was not ment that way.
To cross the speakers in front of the listener is odd and nontraditional. Most wouldn't even try it and would immediately dismiss the idea as foolish. Which is probably why Tannoy document it as their starting point with their Prestige series.
The fact that you have made a great video explaining simply why it could be the prefect set up on horn type speakers l commend you for. We all want to get the best out of our system. Thx for your help.
@@stephens2r338 No worries!
In my small apt. 15x12 ft. living room with an angled ceiling (8 ft. on the short end, and 11 ft. on the tall end) and my Klipsch Cornwall I's (placed on the longer wall) 9 ft. apart and 3 in. (inches not feet) away from the wall; pointing straight out (no toe-in or toe-out) and my sitting position 8 ft. away, to my ears, the Cornwall's sound really, really good. In my system, they are warm yet defined, and when the music being played calls for it, there's a sound-stage that has enough depth, height, and width that appears to push the sidewalls away. Voices sound natural and instruments linger in the air when they should and not as a contrived effect. I did experiment a little with toeing-in the speakers but did not get as good results as having them facing straight out. I suppose it's all a matter of the room and ancillary electronics.
Associated stereo equipment: Lenco/Bogen L70 (idler drive) turntable; Jelco 750D tonearm with Denon DL-301 II MC cartridge. Nakamichi CDP-2A (TDA1541 dual DACs) cd player. Quicksilver Audio Remote Control Line Stage Preamplifier with Sovtek 12AX7 LPS tubes; Cambridge Audio Alvo Duo phono preamplifier. Audiosector (LM3875) Patek Amplifier SE (47 Labs Gaincard Clone) with a 300VA toroid power supply. Klipsch Cornwall I (3-way speakers, 1983-1984) refinished in black & white ebony veneer. Speaker cables: Monoprice Access Series 14 gauge. Interconnects: Blue Jeans Cable LC-1. Emotiva XIEC power cords connected to the Audio Sector Patek SE amplifier and Quick Silver Audio Remote Control preamplifier, and all - except turntable - power cords connected to a Tripp Lite Isobar surge suppressor.
Great video. Thank you!
Thank you for the most detailed reviews I’ve seen on the Cornwalls. Any chance you can review the Tannoy Ardens?
I believe in toe-in but at some point the reflections get so variable that they cannot be held akin to how a billiards ball would behave on a pool table. Sound radiates in a full circle from its point of origin, and that would include its datum (starting point) and all subsequent points of deflection. And after a short while it becomes a bath of sound. However, I would hold with the theory that the most dominant "vector" would be that between the speaker and the listener.
Good day. I currently have pair of Klipsch RF7's. I have towed them in based on another vid I watched on you tube. And since I did that I hear a huge difference in the sound. I also pulled them to approximately 3ft away from the back wall. But It never occurred to be to experiment with them further. It's late and I cant sleep so that's why I'm even up watching vids in the first place. But i cant wait to try your suggestion out to se if the difference is noticeable. Thanks for the idea.
I JUST put mine on dollys today :)
Really helped me position my Klipsch RP-600M speakers and get greater detail from them in the sweet spot seating position. It would help to list the site where you bought the Denafrips and also the site for the Schiit and which of the 4 DACs you are mentioning in the description details section of you vid. Good lighting and sound quality on you vids.
Glad it helped. Good suggestion. I'll amend the text below the video in the near future.
Damn! Didn’t realize they were that big!
The room appears dreadful for acoustics though.
I can see why you might think that, but it's actually quite good. There are large parts of the room, that you haven't seen, that are very absorbent.
A high pile carpet in front of the stereo set would do wonders ...
@@cremersalex Thanks for your suggestion. I agree, there's a good chance that that would make my room sound better.
@@thebostonaudiophile Yeah, if treatment isn't an option, i'd try a thick rug at the very least. If you sit pretty close to the back wall, you will want a lot of absorption back there, otherwise maybe rig up a large/thick movie theater type curtain on that front wall and diffusion on the rear wall..
Grab a mirror and lay it on the floor and from your seated position to where you can see the horns, that's where the rug should cover.
Great video...wonder if your method would apply to standard non-horn speakers ??
Thanks, much appreciated. It may also apply to other speakers with a directional tweeter and midrange. IMO, the best thing is to experiment with your speakers and room and to keep an open mind.
Sounds great, I like it…
Good to hear! Thanks.
New things learnt. Thanks a lot
My pleasure. Thanks for watching.
How many feet away do you sit from the speakers to listen, please? Trying to plan out if these would fit my room and I could what your video recommends.
Paul Klipsch did have suggestions for Cornwall placement in-room that you can read about here: community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=47376
The reasons why you're not pushing the CW-IVs back to the wall (which extends and smooth deep bass response even further) are two fold:
1. You've got a discontinuity between the loudspeakers (the center electronics rack) that interferes with the smooth boundary of the front wall in the midrange band, and
2. You're probably not re-EQing the bass bins to flat response again after placing them in boundary effect.
PWK did say that the bass extension also lowers bass distortion (bass modulation distortion and compression distortion), so you're getting the extra bass for free, and since the loudspeaker is within 1/4 wavelength of the front wall, there is no audible or measurable phase lag due to the wall reinforcement.
If you move that electronic rack away from the center position to a side wall (farther than two wavelengths away at midrange frequencies), you'll regain the ability to push the CW-IV's back to the front wall and to re-EQ the bass to flat. This will further improve the sound quality overall. The above comment I make comes from the engineer that designed the Cornwall IV--Roy Delgado of Klipsch (and PWK's protege of horn design).
Chris
When are your going to make a new video?
Keep em coming
Thank you.
My listening area is an acoustical treatment nightmare: Ptiched and lofted ceiling at about 20 feet high at the lowest point. Treatments on the walls are cost prohibitive for me, and I was frustrated with how my Quartets performed. Thank you for this video; though my toe-in is not as sharp as yours, the upper mid-range and high dithering and slapback has been significantly mitigated; I hear more of the recordings and the speakers rather than the room now. So, so grateful for your explanation.
Additional question, if you've got the time: Could this strategy also be used for non-horn loaded speakers? I am thinking about getting my hands on a pair of NS-1000 or NS-2000s.
I can’t say, every room and speaker is different. No pairing is perfect but playing with placement, toe-in and basic room treatment (carpet, drapes, sofa, etc) can all yield big improvements for little or no cost. Good luck!👍
Nice review!
Well I be damned, it is exactly what Paul Klipsch suggested.
I did not know that. Thank you. It's not shown in the Cornwall IV manual, they just show the speakers with a little toe-in. I've heard Steve Guttenberg and others mention it. I'm not claiming to have invented it. I hope I didn't give that impression.
@@thebostonaudiophile What happens in most cases when you put the K-horn properly in the corners of a room?
humbuckerpickups The Cornwall is not like the K-Horn that depends on the walls to act as part of the bass horn, unlike the Cornwall that uses a conventional direct radiator for the bass.
@@StewartMarkley I know, I have owned them. Not sure what your point is. I am talking about PWK's suggestion for extreme toe-in, I said nothing about corners.
@@MostlyBuicks Oh, I thought that you were referring to the fact that K-horns must be in the corners whereas the Cornwall's can be moved about. Anyway, I would prefer the flexibility of the Cornwall's to be positioned to achieve the best compromise of room acoustics for smoother bass.
Thanks for the video ! Would that placement work for Forte as well (as opposed to Cornwalls being…corner speakers) ?
You’re very welcome. Yes, Forte and Cornwall have very similar sound dispersion so yes. In the end, just experiment!, as every room is different and we all have different preferences.
Pretty damn smart ! Thanks man !
The “Pat Paulson” of Audiophiles.... 👍
I don't know who that is. I hope that's a good thing. :)
The Boston Audiophile he was a comedian on the old show “ The Smothers Brothers” from the 60s. th-cam.com/video/x4kWLUnorTU/w-d-xo.html
@@TexasScout Got it. Thanks!
@@TexasScout he also ran for president several times, LOL
The other guy that I think of is Ben Stein.
So...you are describing a speaker that only supports one-seat listening in this room with a relatively short throw to the MLP; not a speaker that has a listening window that provides good coverage of a listening area in this room. Is the coverage of the waveguide(s) so narrow that this speaker must have an extreme toe-in that you describe? If so, this is clearly a speaker suitable only for stereo listening from one symmetrically positioned seat. Not a speaker for a larger advanced home theater system behind an AT screen. No AT screen could handle that much toe-in. I suppose that a longer throw with L/R spread around 45 degrees that would permit coverage of the listening within the speaker's listening window would be a proper HT LCR design for this speaker. It appears that the throw in this room is so short that the speaker cannot cover more than one seat. It comes down to your target priority: nominal for one seat or nominal for an area (more than one seat).
Thanks for this.
My pleasure! TY for watching.
Good catch :)
Hello! Would you recommend this for a 5 channel surround? I have the Klipsch RP series and I was wondering if this would be ideal for the fronts and surrounds. if it is should the surround’s axis be behind the listener? Also which step should be first: the position or the level matching with a dB meter? Thanks.
Thanks for your question. Unfortunately my knowledge is limited to two channel audio so I don't want to guess on surround sound applications. Maybe you could ask Klipsch?
The Boston Audiophile Thanks. I actually moved them all (besides the center) as per your recommendations and Wow! What a difference. Instruments and voices sound much more natural and lifelike. There’s also more detail and a wider sweet spot. I was hesitant to move them initially because I thought they fine, but it only went up from there. Thank you for this video.
@@BigFlipFlap That's great to hear. You are very welcome. :)
I have enclosed shelves (top and 3 sides) 30" from floor on both sides of fireplace. 20' X 25' room with low ceilings. Will it work or bad idea?
I don’t understand your set up but there’s no way to tell without trying it. Experiment. Have fun!
Checking acoustic variations using your speaker dolly is convenient. But unless you plan on keeping the speakers on the dollys it will not give you a true representation of the various positions. Because placing them back on the floor will also alter the dynamics. Especially the bass. A preferable method might be to use a two wheeled hand cart, checking each position as you would actually use them. You may be missing out on a sweet spot that you might not recognize with the dollys.
Valid point and suggestion. Thank you.
Bees toe Lowering the speakers to the floor would have some effect on the bass but not very much. The technique is a very valid way to find the best position for the speakers. Moving the speakers horizontally has a much greater effect on the bass than lowering them a few inches to the floor.
Where would you place the speakers if you added subs?
I don’t have enough experience with subs to say. Perhaps you could check out suggestions from REL, etc?
So when is your next video?
I'll try this with my KG4s. I find them to be a bit shouty for my tastes.
Yes, give it a try!
Try Dynamat for the backside of the plastic horn and upgrade the tweeters with Titanium diaphragms. Has turned my KG-4 into a completely new speaker. Different angle just makes for a different point where the reflections hit the side.
@@Majoox1999 I upgraded the diaphragms and crossovers, but I've since sold them on, as I was never able to get them far enough away from the wall behind them, due to the size and configuration of my listening room. I replaced the m with a pair of KEF 103.3 which I much prefer.
@@TheAgeOfAnalog That's ashame they're such good speakers for tubes.
Please, I am an old B&W listener, looking for new speakers and I want to hear the Klipsch Cornwalls and the Forte IV, respectfully, are horn speakers as exact and and precise as say Totem, Focal, B&W, and Sonus Faber? These have great reviews and I want to listen to all before I buy. On this system, they will be powered by a Classe 300 watt amp or a new NAD M33 200W integrated. Thank you for help in advance. BTW like these others stated this was a great video put into lay terms, very helpful.
Strange thing is the name Cornwall was given because the speaker is meant to go in a corner or against the wall. Corn-wall. So much for that idea.
You can position them that way, according to their name, but they won’t sound their best.
What happens if its only me listening? With such a drastic toe in won't the soundstage be small?
Good questions. A single listener will still benefit by not having that need to have your head clamped in the center issue, plus there's a more even sound distribution … in my room anyway. You can move the speakers a little closer to the sidewalls to increase the soundstage width. With the extreme toe-in, you typically won't need as much distance from the side walls. But it's really a matter of experimentation.
@@thebostonaudiophile ok thanks I will give it a try! BTW have you heard the La Scalas? Do they have the best mids of the heritage line?
@@locmanw1583 I auditioned the LaScala II's, not the current Al5. It was very hard to decide between the LaScala II's and Cornwall IV's. I was blown away by the LaScala in several ways, yes the midrange is great, but the bass is less deep than the Cornwalls, so I thought I wouldn't be happy with the LaScala's without sub woofers … still I sometimes wonder. Both excellent speakers! Perhaps someday I'll buy La Scalas and a stack of REL subs but that's getting pretty expensive and space consuming.
@@thebostonaudiophile Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Yeah La Scalas are getting up there! I don't need too much bass. But my listening space is small too. I was thinking of the Heresy IV. Are the mids as good as the Cornwalls?
@@locmanw1583 I haven't listened carefully to the Heresy IV so I don't want to say too much about them as that's the only way to really understand a speaker IMO. I doubt the midrange of the Heresy's are as good as the Cornwall's, but if your budget or room size is limited, they may be the better choice. I plan to do a full Cornwall IV review where I'll discuss these tradeoffs further.
Same principle I use in my home theater with 120” screen
Where would you place subs?
Great stuff, thank you!
Thanks for watching and for your kind comment.
Now I want to try this with my RF7 IIIs!
Any preference on distance from front/side walls?
There's a tradeoff between soundstage width and side-wall interactions. I'd just experiment and find what you like in your room.
I also want build a dolly. Can you share the specs and materials? TIA
I'm using these: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00O8039D8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
@@thebostonaudiophile does that dolly give you enough height to be at correct listening position? I have forte iii and wondering how high I would need for stands or a dolly.
@@thebostonaudiophile Thanks! Would you be able to share the dimensions of the base? I believe it's 24.5" x 13" but I want to confirm. I want to possibly build my own to more exact specs. Thanks :)
Will this method also work for Klipschorns? 😊
I though Klipschhorns were intended for corner placement ... but I don't know much about them, so I can't say.
Thanks
Will it work with my klipsch rf7 speakers ?
I would think so, but as always, experiment, keep an open mind and trust YOUR ears! Good luck!
The horns are no longer ear piercing , the speakers sound so diffrent . Thank you
Nicely done video
But with all the ocd placement, toe in, room acoustics, sweet spot seat position issues, I wonder if it is better to just go with Abyss 1266tc class headphones and attached gear, especially if most of your listening is 2ch and solo, alone
That said, it appears compression drivers and horns are back with a vengeance, as all the high end home theater guys go jbl synthesis, klipsch, or diysg setups with horn. Compression drivers
how far is it from the wall behind and side of the speakers?
Currently, my speakers are about 4 feet from the back wall and 4 feet from each side wall.
hello, can someone tell me the measurement of the base of the cornwall, length and width, thanks
The main speaker body is about 25.25"W x 15.5"D. The black plinth, under the main box of the speaker, is about 23.5"W x 13.5"D.
Depends the room...
Exactly like Ohm Walsh speakers
Unfortunately I don’t have the space to accomodate them.
You're right, they are very large and they need room around them to sound their best too. If your room is small, they may not be a good choice.
I put my Heresy IV on top of a dolly for the same reason too
It makes it easy doesn't it?! Plus, when I'm not listening I can push the speakers near the wall and open up the room.
I may upgrade to the IVs how is it compared to the IIIs? Is the bass still tight?
Frank Wong, I have not audition the Heresy III so I can’t do a compare, but I did audition it against Forte and La Scala and ends up writing the following on Amazon... Leagendary...
Just got a pair from a guy who brought it but then want to let go of it because he spotted a pair of La Scala. He had a pair of well burn in Forte already. When I saw it on FB market place, I jumped on it and also had a chance to audition it together with a older Forte and the La Scala...
Forte and the La Scala was well broken in. The Heresy IV is almost new, just a few hours usage. The Forte sounded more open and La Scala blown everything away ‘cause it’s a total different class. The Heresy wasn’t bad at all but a little short of the other two at the audition. Amp used was a Yamaha Receiver with Forte and Heresy and a Yamaha DAC for the La Scala. I suspected at the time the Heresy needs some breathing room because of the rear port and the height needs to raised up a few inches.
So I took them home and put them on dolly to add some height, leave them some breathing room from the wall. They sounded very natural from the get go with nice image and there are plenty of base to go around, no needs for a sub. With the raised height my ears told me they can match the well used Forte in terms of open feels. The base and vocals, as my wife like to put it, married, as compare with the run of the mills spkrs that relies on sub to help and sounded much more musical and realistic.
I am pushing them with two Marantz monoblocks with tube buffered the phono/CD/Blue Tooth 4.0 and running burn in tracks from TH-cam. It should open up the sound stage a lot more but that will take time. If I have a chance I will revisit this post and give a impression on after the burn in is done.
Given the price I paid, a win for the seller and I.
Things I would do....
1. Try raising them up a few inches
2. Keep them away from the wall and let them breath (I suspect Heresy 3 may not have that issue)
@@hwccheng it was nice reading your review!☺
Why is La Scala on another league? Is it really that much more detailed?
Friend, your experience can help me, please help me decide which one I buy for the most HI END sound, which one you recommend, the Cornwall IV or the RF-7 III I want to enjoy the best sound, I have at home Pre Amplifier and Power Onkyo and Cd Player Rotel, please tell me which one will give me better sound quality, thanks friend.
I’ve never heard the RF-7, so I cannot advise. Try to hear them both.
Did you hear the 5k in that sneaker squeak?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Sorry, but Kilpsch Cornwall is not a horn speaker, is a bass reflex speakers. Horn speaker are: Klipschorn, La Scala, Belle Klipsch.
It has two horns in top with a 15 inch speaker
not full horn but 2 on 3 speakers are horn loaded;)
Kind of bothered by dollies under speakers because of the potential for vibrations, but with the Cornwalls' weight probably not an issue
96lbs is light for a speaker that size.
You bring up a good point. I'm open to the idea that almost anything can impact the sound. The added height also raises the midrange and tweeter horn, which works with my listening chairs, but may not for lower chairs. Maybe at some point I'll try a more solid base ... once I'm 100% sure of the speaker placement.
@The Boston Audiophile From my own experiences, Heresy sitting on a dolly works very well and brings the firing angle of the horn inline with the listening level, it opens up the sound.
@@hwccheng That's great! I believe you.
I think that's too much positioning for a $5-6K pair of loud speakers.
"Hi. I am a robot from the future. You will do this or be destroyed."
AS FAR AS MOI IS CONCERNED.. THE PLACEMENT OF THE SPEAKERS IS ALL IMPORTANT SO THAT YOUR NEIGHBORS KNOW YOU EXIST AND THERE'S NOT A DAMN THING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT
Sir, may I suggest you drink a pot of coffee or maybe a 6-pack of Red Bull!!…
Ha, ha. That's hilarious! Thanks for you suggestion and for watching!!
@@thebostonaudiophile keep up the good work....some of us need your expertise to gdt our sound right
Brick and linoleum. It will sound like sh*t regardless of where puts those washing machines
My room has very good acoustics. You just can’t see it all. No linoleum either. 😎
@@thebostonaudiophile I am a Forte IV owner so it wasn't a Klipsch hater thing at all. I will definitely concede you know your room better than I do. TURN IT UP AND ROCK ON. Just don't pull a muscle moving those beasts around. LOL 😆
Superior you say. Isn't all audio totally subjective? Because you say it is, does not make it so.
Everything thing I say in these videos is "in my opinion".
@ Ah yes,,the lecturing poster. Nicely done. Now make sure you Mom knows you are on the net.
@ Perhaps we had the same Mother.
Jesus man take it easy for christ sake. He never said I said so, so it makes it so!
Cheers Boston! I just get a set of CWIVs. Your advice is well taken.