Which Battery Lasts Longer? High Power Vs Lightweight EMTB | EP8 Vs EP8 RS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- The EMTB industry is splitting off into two distinctive power categories. The question is should you get a heavyweight high power electric mountain bike or lightweight lesser-powered electric mountain bike? In this video, Steve Jones rides the Canyon Spectral:ON with the Shimano EP8 motor and the Orbea Rise with Shimano EP8 RS motor. How will the numbers look?
What do you think about the lightweight emtbs?
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What do you think about the new breed of lightweight EMTBs?
Love my Specialized Levo SL. Bought a regular Levo for my wife; but, now she wants a lighter SL instead. Yes, you look much trimmer...Good job man! Cheers!
If I was to get an ebike it would be a lightweight one, it would probably be more similar to a normal bike and you would also have to work harder which is a good thing
I think they are a fantastic addition to the ebike line up, catering for all needs meaning more riders on ebikes which is great 👍
@@ElectricMountainBiker So true!
The heavier bike would give the rider much more grunt, and therefore.....more fun!
Can I suggest you do a similar test but using LEVO v LEVO SL and the mission control app and the target heart rate mode, so that way the rider effort is fixed and you are truly measuring a comparison of the hardware.
For all the people that are confused about the low range on the Spectral:
The default setting for the Canyon Spectral:ON on Trail Mode is basicly the same as Boost Mode. They both use the full NM, only the curve changes a bit.
I don't know the settings for the Orbea.
To be honest I’m a bit surprised at the low mileage on both bikes but for me I would go for the Orbea. I would rather pedal a lighter bike with a flat battery than a heavier one.
you almost did it this time with metric units. Only missed the average speed. Good effort still!
Did you only charge the batteries to 50%?
Your range/elevation was terrible for a full battery and I ride the same conditions and location.
How heavy are you ?
I wonder if he ran this in full boost mode. Or if it was in trail mode, what was the maximum torque limit set by the manufacturer. He would have some control over it with E-Tube. The manufacturer can also custom tailor that to the bike. Some give the bike the full torque even in trail mode, but just reduce the user crank input. Others completely cut back the full trail mode output. The Shimano Steps system, even the older e8000, can be fine tuned in each mode by the manufacturer down to increments of 1Nm. As a user you need something like STunlocker to do this yourself, but you can do basic fine-tuning yourself. I'm just wondering if it's really apples to apples if both were essentially run in trail mode, but trail mode on the other is completely different. It could be completely different for the RS manufacturer to manufacture.
I must admit I thought the range was poor. On similar sort of a ride and in the UK I get around 32 miles on my Levo SL
I’m really shocked by the range. I’m just under 100kg and my 24kg kenevo with 500wh battery did better numbers.
@@esotericman22 32 miles on ECO/Trail mode? or full power mode?
Been looking at emtb’s and the Orbea Rise looks like a great choice for here in Oz with it’s mainly dry trails.
23 Kilometers from a 630 Wh battery in trail mode sounds very bad. Even in muddy conditions. I ride an Bosch gen4 and even as an heavy rider I get in similar coditions in emtb mode almost twice that out of it.
As range is subject to around 30 variables I don’t find that surprising. Try one of the range calculators and experiment with the variables, for deeper insight.
@@JohnRushworth I deal with all these variables on each ride. And I rode several differend bikes, motors, tires etc. in all sorts of terrain and weather conditions.
So I think I have an quite educated view on the performance in the video.
Even in the conditions and terrain it looks like a low range to me.
@@carstenreeder8634 Maybe. I can tell you though from empirical measurements also such as serial efficiency, amps vs volts, ambient and core temperatures that each situation is unique and the multiple variables and subsequent range is nigh on impossible to compare. We can only generalise and gain deeper insight by both methods, real world and empirical. Well, what do you expect from an engineer. 😏
@@JohnRushworth Yes, every situation is unique. But when you ride all year long with differend bikes and along with other riders of all sort you get a good feeling what can be expected from a certain combination of gear, rider, weather, terrain etc.
@@carstenreeder8634 You do, so I know my Wh/mile for year round varying conditions and my Bosch CX gives me between 12 miles range and 30 and as you say you just get a feel for those Wh/mile. I also keep an eye on my Kiox power meter, heart rate and cadence averages so I can factor in how hard I’m trying. Bottom line range can become quite a meaningless conversation, it’s more important to know what works for you. Of course if you don’t get a really high Wh/mile you can just accuse folk of not trying hard enough. 😏
Great vid again but Steve when are you going to do a proper comparison of range etc by putting a half fat ebike up against a full fat and matching the torque ie levo SL in turbo (35nm) against a full fat in eco (around 35nm) which would give a much better comparison of range 😉
that's not how people use those bikes. if u want the result of that, just look at WH, no need to test it
Would really love to see how far levo sl in turbo can go vs. Levo in trail mode to match power output. Like same effort on both bikes. Thanks for shows I've become an ebike nut.
I think that woul be realy interesting to see. I got a Levo S-works, and riding in Eco mode I could ride all day.
Would they have the same power output in those settings. Isn't the lighter bikes motor tuned differently so it gives less torque even in highest setting? I've no idea genuine question and either way I think it'd make a really interesting test to see.
@@itarry4 not sure, I was thinking on sl go into mission control and set turbo at 100/100 then figure out by math then feel what to set numbers in trail mode on levo's app. If you figure in weight then maybe 60/60 on levo?
Great comparison video. you mentioned both in trail mode? range seems so low under 15 miles and under 3000ft of climbing for Canyon Spectral On for full 630H battery. the trail condition really that bad ? I wonder what would be the range like in drier condition.
I currently have 418WH battery with Shimano E7000 motor, I can get 3500ft and 20+ miles in trail mode, in dry Socal weather. I am 165 lbs.
yeah i heard only 15 miles total...i thought they would at least 30miles, maybe im thinking easy trails on eco mode.
Dry Day in UK guess it will be August before we get that review.
Which year?
Really surprised by that result, will still stick with the full fat myself but amazing what the light weight ebike can deliver now!
Yea, we think it's going to really open up the market to more riders! A lot of "traditional" mtbers seem to be interested in them now which is a good thing 👍
@@embn yeah the light bike delivers more range because you did put considerately more power (over 30%) in the ride yourself... what a surprise
Don't get me wrong, I realy love your show :)
@@embn yeh have a couple of mates who want the light weight ebike as well. More suited as well for the hike a bike rides they do in lakes so makes perfect sense.
The way ebikes have exploded last year with the lockdowns in play has been fantastic. Know when I was able to get out, instead of non assisted riders looking and saying something in jest, they now ask what the bike is and how it rides.
2020 is the year ebikes became far more accepted ⚡
But it isn’t the bike that is necessarily delivering is it? The similar range from 2 different battery sizes comes due to increased RIDER output on the bike with the smaller battery.
It would have been interesting to see the difference in normalised power (in watts from the rider) between the 2 rides and how that data overlaid on the different battery capacities.
23km in trailmode is almost unbelievable
unbelievably rubbish? feels like half a ride....
Best video you’ve done in a while. Why? Because i literally asked myself this question this morning and BOOM you answered it.
Ah great! Thanks Ryan, really appreciate it
I'm all about more battery more power.
Surplus is fine.
I can adjust the power to suit the needs.
I run at 80% power now and it's fine.
Use the throttle some also.
Efatbikes rule!
These results have blown my mind. If it wasn’t from such a credible source then I wouldn’t believe it.
I’d love to see this done with a Bosch motor as mine is far more efficient. And another comparison between a Brose (Levo) vs Mahle (Levo SL) motor would be nice.
*Edit* I’ve crunched these numbers and found at least one mistake in these questionable results.
Example - 15.7 miles completed in 1 hour 57 minutes is an average of 8.4 mph not 7.2 mph.
Also a motor with 25NM less torque only added 10BPM to the average heart rate and 2BPM to the maximum?
Not to mention the range seems wildly off and many others in the comments agree. We demand a rerun Steve 😁
Great video, these new light weight E-mtbs really bridge the gap between regular bikes and full fat ebikes. Impressive that the semi skimmed green top bike and match the range of its big brother. 👍
Another great vid Steve 👌
My friend has a Levo SL and I have recently purchased my first EMTB in the way of a Levo. I can’t wait to hit the trails, I suspect the range of both bikes could be very similar in range, as I’m 90kg and my friend much lighter. He thinks he will need a range extender straight away but I’m not convinced. It just highlights there are so many variables to consider. 👊
On my Yamaha pw-st I double distance/elevation. I'm 90kg, bike 25kg. Something is wrong with this test or bikes.
I really enjoyed this video as I am right in the middle of choosing an emtb. Confused? I certainly am...
My choice now is basically between a full fat Specialized Turbo Levo Alloy or a lower power output Specialized Turbo Levo SL comp. I am finding it very difficult to get to a decision. I don't do a whole lot of hard off road climbs etc but focus mainly on fire road type trails and some up and downhill links between them and of course good old fashioned lanes and tracks.
what a great video, this was fantastic and are the two bikes I am considering. I love the Orbea but I am older and heavier than I was 15 years ago so think I will go with the Canyon. But will make that decision in a week or so. thanks again for the great work....
What a video steve, best yet. Nice to see a comparison with so much detail. Food for thought. Do a test eco vs boost see what difference is heart rate distance etc etc.👍👍
can you do a comparison on the same track in mint summer conditions? would be interesting to know how the weather and track conditions impact range.
Might be time to rerun this test... both the current 2023 Spectral:On and 2023 Orbea Rise have larger batteries now. And both are using the EP801.
Are electric bikes hard to pedal when the battery is flat/used. I assume they should be like a "normal" bike, but can the rear electric motor cause some drag.
You definitely notice the weight.
weight is definitely a factor with power mode off. I've tested my friend's SL Levo and it is heavy on pavement and no, I didn't feel any drag when pedaling with the power off..it's just heavy.
I made 600m elevation and 30km with motor OFF. No problem whatsoever.
After you ride some times with motor shoot off, you feel like it's a normal bike.
And after that the TURBO mode was to powerfull for me :)))
What has the greatest difference to range, reducing torque or reducing assistance....would be interesting to know 😉
Range and elevation seems pretty bad for both of them... Which mode were you in?
Would be nice to compared to a Josh in emtb
Sorry but a meaningful comparison requires either the same average speed or the same rider energy expenditure. You could as well go slower and with more pedal input on the spectral, you'd get way more range.
Based on simple physics one can conclude that "light E-bikes" are good especially for light and/or weak riders.
weak rider = me hahha
Even as a lighter rider I prefer the higher powered option all day everyday. I love feeling of the torque going uphills and the planted feeling going downhill.
Main reasons I got an SL over a full fat, come be honest, downs were more fun on the lighter bike ! :V
Please make a test about Scott Ransom eride 910 or 920. I want to buy it but wander how it is in the real world.
I don't understand the huge differences between accent and descents on the exact same route? Really enjoyed this video though Steve. Definitely thumbs up.
orbea Rise aluminum has a 540 battery and with the extender 900 watts and you can tune the motor to put out the same power as the other
Thought you said that the bikes were running the same track, the ascents and descents were so different for some reason. Was this a technical hiccough or you went for a little detour? Hard to understand the data presented as the base line appears to be completely different!
the difference in ascent/descent figures is because the Rise kept going for longer so covered more distance.
Your flys were undone fella, your little chipolata might have fallen out
😳🤣🤣
the things they do to keep you watching!!!!
I wonder what power mode he was in for both bikes. I mean, couldn't the higher powered one just be put in eco mode and get pretty much the same power with more range than the RS?
I'm not really sure I understand the point of having a lower power motor when the actual weight of the unit itself is not much different. The battery makes more of a difference in the weight of a bike. Like I have a Focus JAM2 Pro with the 378w internal battery. I unlocked my motor using STunlocker and I can fine tune the maximum torque for each power mode. I can limit trail mode to 60Nm or even less if I want in increments of 1Nm. That can get me another 15-30 minutes of riding right there. If I want to double my range I pop in the external battery. But having multiple size battery choices would have been even better. Shimano should have just given the rider the ability to fine-tune the output of the motor in small increments and just offered one motor. If the manufacturer puts in a smaller battery, they could include default Max torque settings. If you swap in a bigger, heavier battery, you can bump up to the full torque. I'm really not understanding the whole lightweight with lower power SL and RS offerings. Just make a bike where you can swap in smaller, lighter batteries and plug in lower output torque settings, or pop in heavier extended batteries for longer runs. Why is this not a thing? It seems complicated to needlessly have two entire models of the same bike. Once you go SL/RS you're stuck with the lower power output.
im sure they have that in the works...they need to milk the market for $$$ lol
What would make this bees knees, if you rode the same trail on a non electrified ripper and shared that in the stats! But, to answer the question, my weight is on the "assist" side of "e"😊👍🏼
Nice test
I have made a neoprene jacket for my battery in order to further protect in winter and maintain some range....however still trying to work out range advantage to confirm
Excellent review, very helpful since demos are basically non existent during corona plus almost zero bikes at dealers to even look at. I was surprised by the outcome but pleasantly.
Good video, you should try less support on the Canyon to mimic the lower power of the motor on the Orbea for a more fair comparison.
Ditch the music on these vids. Music in vids suck. I still have it a thumbs up since you guys are the beat at tests.
Basically barely testing your heart. The Orbea looks bang on, just need to put more work on.
The average speed was 30% slower and that takes in to both down and up hill speeds. Thats A LOT. Those shimano 630wh batteries suck. They must use cheap cells unlike Specialised and YT who use Tesla cells. Its possible Orbea use Tesla cells too
Wasn’t it the same loop for both bikes? Why mention the ascent and descent at the final comparison, specifically being so different?
I know I have a hard time measuring ascend accurately with my Garmin, but that wasn’t supposed to be relevant information for this comparison
It would all depend on whether the lightweight had enough grunt for the climbs that are part of my regular ride. When I'm out of shape (like now!) I need first gear (32T/42T) and the middle mode on my Turbo Levo. Maybe 32T/52T and turbo mode on an SL would be enough?
With orbea you've done the technical climbs pushing the bike and with spectral not... I think that to have a fair comparison test must be done on dry conditions and with all the climbs done with both bikes... on paper, on same conditions it is impossible that these two bikes are so close in range..
Which fender did you use on that Spectral. Looks neat.
Noting both bikes were in trail, have Orbea tweaked the modes at all to better suit the EP8 RS motor and battery? Maybe not all trail modes are the same??
Land Rover vs Suzuki jimny . Id love too see the Orbea out the box riden down a fire rode . Then throw a bunch of xc gear wheels tires then see what the range gained is ?or any Ebike .
Hi Steve, what was your settings in Trail mode on the Orbea ?
Very surprised by the result considering the torque output of the EP8 Arse
Orbea Occam 2020 + Giant TRANCE E+ SX 1 PRO 2019. Got best of the both worlds ;)
out of curiosity, how far does the trance go on a good day?
@@BrennanLetkemandry condition 800D+, >50km in eco mode most of the time. Will try harder trails soon.
7:35 you said zone 2 in audio but it said zones 3 & 4 on the screen. Guessing the screen is right despite how fit riding an emtb makes you. 😉
Thx for this comparison. Interesting for me, as I bought myself the orbea an my wife the canyon emtb. 🤙
Which bike did you enjoy riding the most?
this is a question that needs to be answered. I want to know which bike felt better and why?
How much of a difference did the tyres make? Did you have the rekon on the rear of the rise ?
Need advice, Anyone know what model Orbea rise this was? M20? M10? M team ? LTD?
Thanks
Amazing video as always
I happen to have the orbea rise myself and your range numbers are no where near what i get. I do 800hm on 20km with trial/turbo and lose 1 bar of battery. For a full battery i easyly get 1500-1800hm especially if i only use trail mode.
Thanks Steve, for this great 👍 comparison, that just came now in the right time to blow my doubts away that I eventually bought with my Giant-Trance-X-E2, the wrong bike for me!? The Orbea Rise is a wonderful bike for young and strong athletes. But, even when I am riding my Giant the most of the time in Eco and Tour mode, I now definitely know that I am too old (for this sh.. ) 😉 for Light E-Mtb Bikes! 👍😂🙋♂️ Cheers.
Great comparison~ what profile mode were you in with Orbea Rise? Profile 1 or 2?
I have 2 questions.
Do the bikes have the same weight carrying capacity?
And can you do a show about what carrying capacity (rider+gear)various E-Bikes can take including the lightweight bikes.
There is very little about it anywhere!
Cheers from Down under
Stick , the star of the show.
Range of both bikes looks pretty poor... I went for 22km and 1200m elevation in trail mode today, by 5 degrees and ascending partly on snow on the road on my Levo SL. 50% of battery left after that ride
Im 220lbs and the longest ive got out of my sl was 33 mi , still had 5 % left . Thought that wasnt good til i read reviews on other bikes ,
@@jimbo4203 the max I got is 47km for 2000m elevation at 5 degrees. Im 165lbs
@@philippepeyer3515 and it's so light i rode it home 3 miles once when the battery was out of juice, and it was not bad
We need to know more about the forestal
Assuming you're doing this all in ECO? Didn't hear any mention of which mode vs which mode unless i missed it
I think both bikes were in trail mod from what he said early on
I really fancy a light ebike like the rise, one thing putting me off that particular model is I've seen a lot of people complaining about the shimano motor having an annoying rattle, this would wind me up 😂, anybody have one and thoughts?
Which will die first....... probably me, of boredom
Can you up the power on the RS motor through software updates?
How does the Orbea Rise compare with the Ezesty and Levo SL or any other new generation light wieght E Bike
its lighter and more powerful, and looks incredible, about 2cm smaller motor area. (the SL has a bump above the motor, the Rise looks almost like a normal bike, if it hadn't those cooling fins)
Of course if you let the bike do more work it will run out of range earlier. If you'd put the equivalent watts of your own power into the EP8 as you did the RS you would have gone farther and climbed more. You really need to check watt hours put out on the run by the bike and yourself and do equal runs on watts used by both and see how far you go. Then you would see if one motor is more efficient than the other. But, for this test, you just showed that using more power from a battery drains it faster than use less, regardless of bike or motor. Did you really need a test to confirm that?
EP8 RS - 15,7mile / 1h 51min = 8.49 MPH
7.2 MPH ......???
Agreed. 1 hour 51 minutes to cover 15.7 miles is an average mph of 8.49
EMBN you’ve fluffed these numbers up.
8:54 Zip up buddy or is someone calling for some extra fresh air? :D
Thanks for this Nice video
Easy - buy a Wild FS. The Bosch Gen4 motor is better than either
834m elevation before Spectral:ON run out of juice ??
Nice shoes!
With that range I'll stick to my Stealth B52.
Anybody realising that our great presenter himself had to push out over 400wh MORE with the lightweight bike?
Guess how much further he would have gotten with the big battery if he would have put 400 extra watthours of his own power into the heavy bike.
This would only be a fair comparison if he would have used the same amount of calories on both bikes.
The only thing this test tells us is that you can get further if you putt more energy in by yourself, and that's... well... been like this since the beginning of time ;)
(Ignore my writing mistakes please, not a native english speaker)
I'm actually between buying an Orbea Rise and a Full Fat (maybe Spectral On actually) and I concluded one thing: I can easily convert the Rise into a bike with 85nm's with a piece of software and plug in a range extender and get 612W/h of battery so why would I go to a full fat when I can still have a light weight that can be converted into a full fat anytime I wish? For me the Rise makes more sense everyday.
I disagree. We really want to know how far the BIKE takes you assisted. Not how far YOU can go on a bar of chocolate.
@@CarlosAntunesMTB Not sure if this is possible without loosing warranty, the RS offers no option to increase the power of the motor by the user, so you would need to tweak it and that's probably not what Orbea had in mind (maybe it also has negative impact on the battery). The Rotwild R.X375 offers two power modes directly (60+85nm), maybe it's a better choice, but also extremely expensive :d
they the same motor jsut different firmware.. with a lil bit of playing around u can easy get 85nm out of the shimano RS...
Isn't riding on muddy trails considered bad etiquette? I l know it is in my neck of the woods.
Ahh Ffs 🙄😂
@@rpirie101 your point being?
@@downhilljedi so we’re only allowed to ride during August and September at this latitude?
@@Lou-f Like I said where I am from it's frowned upon because of the damage it causes. How do you keep from destroying the trails if you are constantly riding in mud?
What is your weight? An important factor in the equation. Thanks.
90 something kilos
This battery range it terrible.. I ride in winter and get better results with 85kg and 26.6kg bike with 630 battery on Bosch system. However, I bought Santa Cruz Bullit with EP8 630 battery and range is much worse, not bit worse but difference is 30%-40% in my tests so far. I am experienced rider. This make my cry, truly. I submitted my system to warranty claim as i think this is a sham.
Yes yes, fine tune that. Profile 1 Eco with assist on 5th with 60nm max. Gives you 30km [today ascent 450m, forest with gravel] and you are walking home 10km! [comparable with Tour on Bosch]
EMBN - what are your thought on that? You test so many bikes.
How did he read the heart rate?
Smaller motors require more rider input shocker.
Bikes with no motors require even more rider input. Who’d a thunk it?
Full fat for me. 90nm 700 W/h. More speed=more fun.
Why not put the big battery on your the smaller motor go for longer
It’s just a shame the Orbea is so damn expensive!! £5600 for a 60nm motor 🤦🏻♂️
You have it wrong, it’s £5600 for a 18kg emtb ;)
@@Lou-f yeah, it’s lighter because there’s a smaller motor and a smaller battery in it! Should be cheaper because of that! 😂
@@chrisjones6699 that’ll be a first, an Mtb that cheaper because it’s lighter? 😃
@@Lou-f 🤔 good point 😂
Lost me with this one, if the route was the same and the last section was flat how can the ascent & descent figures be different!
Possibly due to the extra 1.2 miles done on the Orbea but I thought the same as you
You need to do this with a proper, designed-from-the-ground-up low power bike - the Specialized Turbo Levo SL - not a half-arsed compromise like the Orbea.
But it was 30% slower! That's like day and night. Be interesting to see how far off you would have been on an analogue bike! At 7.2 mph, probably not much difference. If you want an ebike, get an ebike not a half way house!
On those conditions I would like to watch the single track climb on a regular bike :D... it would be the whole day.
You hit your zone 4 at 147/148? So your max HR is 170? Deffo better go for lighter motor as it will push you to work a bit harder:)
Well, it's obvious that the Shimano motor SUCKS for mileage.
My Bosch w/a 500watt/hr batt gets a minimum of 30km range, usually closer to 40km on average in our West Coast of Canazuela winter conditions.
Hi Steve, looking good there mate, you look like you've lost a fair amount of chunkiness during lockdown
Steve's been riding a lot! 🤘
@@embn Has he?
@@stevejones7956 :D
Such a cheeky boyo you are! If you weren’t a pro athlete in the past, a pro presenter now and so knowledgeable, I’d accept your failure to get your heart rate average above 116 as "something you should try harder with". But, given your CV, I find it hard to believe this result wasn’t deliberate mate..... 🤣🤣🤣
No mention of power settings, max nm and so on. pretty useless comparison. I guess it was just an ad.
What was the weight of each bike?
I would say 19kg On the Orbea and 23Kg on the Canyon. (I'm actually considering buyin one or the other )
really bad results really... not a good advert spending a day in the saddle :(
Wait, what?...that is shit. 15 miles on a battery....
I was thinking about an emtb....not anymore.
5k for a bike with such shit range. Jesus.