Excellent video! I agree with your points. From my own experience "in-house" movements have given me more problems; this is in comparison with the well-known movement manufactures.
As watch collectors, we're often inexpedient, Patrick, which is ok. I'd rather have a temperamental Philippe Dufour than a dully efficient ETA ... like in my Rayond Weil... Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Bill - Nice master class this evening. Great topic as I’ve been promoting this concept for several years, it was nice to see you took the time to tackle the topic with more depth and references to back the topic up. Very nice work.
Very good video Bill. On a topic that is on the mind of every watch collector. Most would agree that in or not in house does not make a great or a bad watch. Peseux 260 is arguably one of the best movements ever made. If you look at Voutilainen's Observatoires not one collector I know would not give his right arm for it. But.. and for me that is an important but. There is this emotional feeling, the romantic vision of the ingenious, experienced watchmakers sitting on their benches, working day and night to make everything for a watch. To me this simply has more appeal. I bet you experienced that on your visit to Rolf Lang.
Thx Bill, you are spot on. It seems to me the push for in-house movements (just like legacy and provenance) can only go so far. Your comment about J Shapiro brings this point home. He makes a great dial and adds an extraordinary 3rd party movement. The result is a first rate watch worth owning (if one can justify its price). From my side, I am glad masters like Vincent Calabrese’s as well as brands like Tourby are using standard platforms to offer watches worth collecting at attainable prices.
Really interesting. Gets to the heart of what a watch is. To me, that JN Shapiro sums it up best: outsource the movement if you can't make a better one or your business could not take the R&D cost and subsequent price hike/margin clip. That seems well justified. And honest. Likewise, the high end fashion brands such as Hermes or VC&A are totally justified in using fine off the shelf movements - their strengths again lie in other areas; here, design. Away from high horology 'in-house' can just be used to justify increased product price / brand repositioning and the movement is no better than a well assembled/finished ETA. A good example to my mind is the Valjoux 7750 - a fine workhorse calibre. Are the new (for example) IWC calibres much better? 25 years down the line, I think I'd rather be trying to service a Valjoux! I appreciate the honesty of a well finished Longines with its bespoke and nicely finished ETA/Valjoux! Now, the big boys who can afford to do both movement and watch - all good... if they're good! A Rolex/Seiko is a very tough thing, a JLC/Breguet a very fine thing - both valid in our diverse watch world!
James, I don't think that Hermès and Van Cleef & Arpels are "fashion watches." That term is reserved for brands like Burberry that simply slap their logo on different watches and have no horological interests otherwise.VC&A had their first men's watch in 1949, designed by Pierre Arpels and they've worked with Piaget, Agenhor and other top watchmakers for their movement. Likewise, Hermès bought 25% of Vaucher, the major source of their movements but have also worked with Agenhor for special complications. The same is true with Harry Winston, especially their Opus series that have had watches made by everyone from F.P. Journe to Jean-Marc Wiederrecht. As for "off-the-shelf" movements, all of the movement in VC&A watches are bespoke. That's why they're so blasted expensive! I think a better way to think of watches by luxury brands that do more than just put their logo on a watch is to think of them as an extension of a "luxury brand" into horology. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Yes, certainly - I didn't mean 'fashion brands' to be derogatory (I realise it often is in the watch world) - more 'for want of a better word'! But for sure these brands are fashion houses (handbags, jewellery - same thing) albeit sometimes making interesting and fine watches. And yes, I didn't mean to imply a ETA 2824 could be wedged into a VC&A! Ha ha, that would be fun! All best and stay well!
Thanks for the great video Bill, I really think that some of those specialized movements makers are much much better (horological) than some of those "in-house" movements. Whether Lemania or Agnhor, in the future they will be the most collectable not the in house ones.
Nice video Bill. I've had and have watches with ETA movements which are fine movements. Like you stated, base movements from other companies are used by many watch companies. Some very upscale. However, when you reach a certain price point, an inhouse manufacture movement has a certain cache' about it that adds value and prestige to the watch. Some might not be as good as some third party movements even. It could seem that you're getting more bang for the buck.
John, unless we allow ourselves to be at the mercy of the watch companies (and conglomerates) for getting information, we have to be cynical investigators. However, that's what makes watch collection interesting! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
1. I am less interested in legacy rather than the present or future. Because, I want the watch to be serviceable throughout my time. 2. It carries a lot of weight unless it is fake in-house. Like, the group owns many watch brand and each claiming to have different in house movement. It is just shared knowledge and expertise. 3. Price is the factor here. If the watch costs a lot, it should have impeccable finishing. 4. For high horology, definitely! 5. For independent and top brand, it should be a given like gold rotor.
This video helps to reorient people who have knee jerk reactions against third party movements. I agree with you that being particular about the movement is a critical element in assessing a potential watch purchase but that a watch should not automatically be excluded because it has a third party movement. Sometimes the value proposition of a watch with a third party movement can be superior to a watch at the same price point with an in-house movement. Other times a watch maker offers some of its references with more consequential movements than other of its references even at the same price point. In connection with the latter circumstance, I became interested in the work of Peter Speake-Marin at the firm named after him with which he severed his association. The Piccadilly references used ETA base movements while the Valsheda reference used a Vaucher movement. In addition, Mr. Speake-Marin had once worked for Parmigiani so there was also that association. I obviously purchased the Valsheda because of the enhanced quality of the base movement over the references with the ETA.
Very nice exposition, Howard. In criminal conspiracy cases you "follow the money," in watch collection, you "follow the movement." Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Another fascinating video. I really like thoseJN Shapiro and the Ophion watches, especially the Shapiro, it looks a lot like a Breguet. Great job and thanks as always Bill.
Indeed, the dial on that Shapiro is a treat as is the movement, Bruce. The price...not so much. The Ophion has excellent components and is priced for the average collector. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
MJM, where did you find that information? Piaget is owned by Richemont and Omega by Swatch; and Swatch have cut off all but Swatch-owned brands from their ETA movements. Why would Richemeont allow Omega to use Piaget movement? Please let me know. Thanks. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@wataki_watcheswatakiwatche3160 You meant Frédéric Piguet (not Piaget). Swatch bought Frédéric Piguet and Blancpain together...(Frédéric Piguet owned Blancpain.)Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Always was of the oppinion that a good movement is whats important, not who made it. Or as I'd put it in Car anthology the Shelby Cobra comes to mind, beautiful Body by AC and good heart by Ford! Together a perfect combination.
Hi Bill. Many compliments on the depth bredth of your knowledge, very impressive. This is complex topic to tackle. To say the watch industry is incestuous, is understating the fact! My own personal feeling on this topic is very simplistic. If you make the movement yourself, in a watch bearing your name, then you're a watch maker. If you don't, then you're a watch assembler. I know that with the larger watch corporations, owning lots of different brands, this adds many, many layers of complication into my simple statement, but hopefully you get the idea. Best and stay safe
There are so many nuances to watchmaking, Stuart, that more than one skill is required. But making an excellent mechanical watch begins with a good and honest movement. Now if a company that produces excellent watches, like Van Cleef & Arpels or JN Shapiro but don't make movements ... we can say they're excellent établisseurs, which is not a bad thing. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Hi Bill, it’s a great video. I used to be the kind of person who judges a watch by if it uses an in Hause movement and I am kinda out of that time now since during my own collection journey I experienced many good examples. For example regulator and chronoscope from chronoswiss (unfortunately they lost the spirit ever since the ceo was changed I must say) I used to like dwiss which is a micro brand and used eta movement with some „unique“ design but later I found such design was also appearing on some other micro brands. I think they share the same modified module from somewhere. I liked vicenterra which was also a micro brand and was nominated on gphp 2018 (lost to Habring) they have also some unique design I hardly saw before but 4800 Euro is not a small deal for me. I think a brand or needs to have its own spirit in its design, not just to copy some unique design and through it into a case and call them a collection. Judgment is based on knowledge, that’s why I admire you since you know a lot and you experienced much more than most of us. I would like to hear your thought on for example vicenterra if it worth’s the money. What do you think is the modification of the movement. Cheers Thomas
Fascinating video Bill. I’ve handled the VC & A dual time twice in recent days and it’s a real beauty, especially the back. I’m looking forward to seeing what Marco Lang comes out with next. Thanks again.
Jeffrey, I've had a lot of people ask me about where to get a Van Cleef & Arpels Pierre Arpels Heure d'Ici & Heure d'Ailleurs, and other than from VC&A directly I really don't know. Where did you find one? From the scuttlebutt I've been able to glean, the new Marco Lang's are starting at a fairly high price. €60-80,000(?). But rumors are just that; rumors. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Hi Bill. I’ve seen it at a VC &A boutique in a mall very near to where I live. Beautiful watch. I’ve looked for the watch on Chrono24 and elsewhere but so far I’ve seen it only in the boutique- and at a boutique price.
Hi Bill, The Hermes handbag you refer to here is called the Kelly Bag named, as you say after Princess Grace. Some can cost the price of a Calatrava and upwards!
That's what I was looking for, Mr. Rea. Thank you. Some years ago my wife and I were visiting the Hermès shop in Paris, and looked at a simple clutch, and it was several thousand dollars. I bought my wife a scarf instead. Even since then I've advertised an abundance of ignorance about handbags! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
To what extent are the Breitling in-house movements actually different to an ETA movement? To what extent is an IWC in-house movement for a three handed watch different to an ETA movement?
What do you think of the Baumatic movements. I say a Riviera which is really nice and another boasting a Baumatic for hundreds of dollars more with the in-house.
Andrew, the Baumatic is made by Richemont movement-maker ValFleurier, and while it may not be revolutionary, from what I know it's a solid movement. Take care, Bill
Yes, Alexander. Minerva is dedicated to Montblanc for now, and ValFleurier will be continued to be used on different Richemont brands. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
I would think, based on "numbers/accuracy" it would be very difficult to beat a COSC ETA. Then add on the decoration. Not sure where an in house, is 'superior'.
Regarding legacy - I dont have an issue with FPJ's legacy going back 2 days. He doesnt pretend. What pisses me off is people like Blancpain, Bovet, Droz, Arnold & Sons trying to capitalize on somebody else's history! It's the same way as you get ticked off when a company puts a cheap movement in a watch and tries selling it under their own movement name... I like heritage and heritage has to be there, not something you borrowed (worse stole) through naming your upstart the same name as somebody in the past.It's like some schmuck under the name Ivanov changing his last name to davinci and claiming that all the works of the great master belong to his ancestral heritage! WTF man?!
Alexander, there's more to it than that. In some respects, all of them rests on fractured histories. Bovet family members seemed to have lasted until the 1930s or 1940s, but by then Bovet was not the name brought to the Imperial Court of China. However, Pascal Raffey wanted to bring back much of that long-lost elegance to watchmaking and went so far as to buy the Bovet family palace where lucky watchmakers plied their trade. He also created Dimier to make movements, including hairsprings. Blancpain was one of the many casualties of the Quartz Crisis and was actually owned by Frédéric Piguet...the movement maker..., and so when Swatch bought Piguet, it got Blancpain and made Piguet the major component of Blancpain's movement works. The extent to which a watch company name is carried beyond the founder is fine with me ... it's a model of excellence to which the company can aspire.(Breguet can be added to that list, but Daniel Roth saved it from the brink of extinction ... ) Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Alexander, I believe they were "Breguet" in name only. The brand was owned by the Brown family for 100 years (1870-1970)... actually longer than it was owned by the Breguet family. In 1970 when George Brown sold Breguet to the Chaumet brothers, it was described as "run down," and it was during the first part of the Chaumet ownership that Daniel Roth was brought in to help revive the brand. To be fair, though, under Brown, Breguet did develop the Type 20 for the post-war French Air Force in the 1950s; admittedly a tool watch chronograph, but "not nothing." After the Chaumet brothers made some bad investment, they had to sell Breguet to Investcorp S.A., a Bahrain-based investment bank. During this period Invescorp bought Nouvelle Lemania S.A, and Lemania began doing all the movement making for Breguet. Later they were bought by Swatch. So while the Breguet name has been a brand name continuously since Abraham Louis Breguet, it's very hard to claim it to be the "same" company start by Abraham. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci Same company, not the same ownership. As opposed to a pretender company ) If I remember correctly, Browns worked for Breguets at some point in history... Look, BMW was a BMW in good times and in bad. Sometimes they built motorcycles, other times Natzi airplanes, then cars. But it's the same company. cheers
Thanks Benny, I sort of got that idea on a visit to the Hermès shop at 24 Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré in Paris about 20 years ago. Even a simple clutch was $thousands! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hi Tim! (I just realized if you add an "e" to your name, it's "Time!") On the one hand, a full watchmaking company does make its own movement, but a little établissage can be valuable-like making their own springs. A huge part of H. Moser is selling their fantastic hairsprings. Even Agenhor has a hairspring made especially for them by a company that specializes in hairsprings-Atokalpa. Bovet, does it all, I believe, but they established Dimier by buying existing companies that were already making all the different components for a watch movement. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Only discovered your channel 2-3 days ago. Must say I'm impressed! Definitely one of the best out there. Your knowledge is superb. Thats why I want to hear your thoughts about 2 small French independents. First is Pascal Coyon. He made his first watch a couple of years ago and is now working at another series but the last is quite a lot more expensive. The other one is Florent Lecomte. He sis just finishing his first 10 pieces but you want find much info about them. If you are on Instagram, do check Lecomte_watchmaker. Would love to hear your thoughts. To be fair I own both
Bruno, thank you so much! I saw the Lecomte watch and was smitten! Beautiful work. I will have to find out how to get one of those. Pascal Coyon, on the other hand, while great versions of the Unitas 6498 ... at a price that more collectors can afford ... is not in the same league as Lecomte, but still outstanding work! I will definitely have to explore these two more! How would I contact Lecomte about a purchase? Take care and be safe, Bill😷
You can contact lecomte via Instagram, lecomte_watchmaker. His first 10 were sold out immediately but I know he will make other watches. Concerning the coyon, the first watch he made (60 pieces) that was also a bargain ( 5.000 euro) his second series is indeed more expensive, I believe 32.000 euro. I think it’s worth it but confess it’s not cheap. But this one also has a gold case. Concerning the price... it’s about the same as a patek Calatrava and in the case I might prefer the coyon. Btw, are you on Instagram? Didn’t found you. If you want to see more pictures of both watches, you can find them under my account- collectible_warches. Unfortunately Instagram is more about pics and unfortunately showing off and less about knowledge... so glad I found your TH-cam channel. Best regards Bruno
Vacheron still uses caliber 1141 that is based off the Lemania CH21 or also known as Omega 321.
Thanks Tippy, which watches still use the ca. 1141? Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Excellent video! I agree with your points. From my own experience "in-house" movements have given me more problems; this is in comparison with the well-known movement manufactures.
As watch collectors, we're often inexpedient, Patrick, which is ok. I'd rather have a temperamental Philippe Dufour than a dully efficient ETA ... like in my Rayond Weil... Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Bill - Nice master class this evening. Great topic as I’ve been promoting this concept for several years, it was nice to see you took the time to tackle the topic with more depth and references to back the topic up. Very nice work.
Hey MrV! Thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Very good video Bill. On a topic that is on the mind of every watch collector. Most would agree that in or not in house does not make a great or a bad watch. Peseux 260 is arguably one of the best movements ever made. If you look at Voutilainen's Observatoires not one collector I know would not give his right arm for it. But.. and for me that is an important but. There is this emotional feeling, the romantic vision of the ingenious, experienced watchmakers sitting on their benches, working day and night to make everything for a watch. To me this simply has more appeal. I bet you experienced that on your visit to Rolf Lang.
Hi Hannes, I don't know about the Peseux 260, but I did have a watch with a Peseux 7001 ... very reliable. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci @WatchArtSci it is the movement Voutilainen used for his Observatoires watches. You made a video about it 😂 #94
Thx Bill, you are spot on. It seems to me the push for in-house movements (just like legacy and provenance) can only go so far. Your comment about J Shapiro brings this point home. He makes a great dial and adds an extraordinary 3rd party movement. The result is a first rate watch worth owning (if one can justify its price). From my side, I am glad masters like Vincent Calabrese’s as well as brands like Tourby are using standard platforms to offer watches worth collecting at attainable prices.
Well said, FFA! We have to find excellence in more places than advertising brochures ... and watches we can afford. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Really interesting. Gets to the heart of what a watch is. To me, that JN Shapiro sums it up best: outsource the movement if you can't make a better one or your business could not take the R&D cost and subsequent price hike/margin clip. That seems well justified. And honest. Likewise, the high end fashion brands such as Hermes or VC&A are totally justified in using fine off the shelf movements - their strengths again lie in other areas; here, design. Away from high horology 'in-house' can just be used to justify increased product price / brand repositioning and the movement is no better than a well assembled/finished ETA. A good example to my mind is the Valjoux 7750 - a fine workhorse calibre. Are the new (for example) IWC calibres much better? 25 years down the line, I think I'd rather be trying to service a Valjoux! I appreciate the honesty of a well finished Longines with its bespoke and nicely finished ETA/Valjoux! Now, the big boys who can afford to do both movement and watch - all good... if they're good! A Rolex/Seiko is a very tough thing, a JLC/Breguet a very fine thing - both valid in our diverse watch world!
James, I don't think that Hermès and Van Cleef & Arpels are "fashion watches." That term is reserved for brands like Burberry that simply slap their logo on different watches and have no horological interests otherwise.VC&A had their first men's watch in 1949, designed by Pierre Arpels and they've worked with Piaget, Agenhor and other top watchmakers for their movement. Likewise, Hermès bought 25% of Vaucher, the major source of their movements but have also worked with Agenhor for special complications. The same is true with Harry Winston, especially their Opus series that have had watches made by everyone from F.P. Journe to Jean-Marc Wiederrecht. As for "off-the-shelf" movements, all of the movement in VC&A watches are bespoke. That's why they're so blasted expensive! I think a better way to think of watches by luxury brands that do more than just put their logo on a watch is to think of them as an extension of a "luxury brand" into horology. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Yes, certainly - I didn't mean 'fashion brands' to be derogatory (I realise it often is in the watch world) - more 'for want of a better word'! But for sure these brands are fashion houses (handbags, jewellery - same thing) albeit sometimes making interesting and fine watches. And yes, I didn't mean to imply a ETA 2824 could be wedged into a VC&A! Ha ha, that would be fun! All best and stay well!
Thanks for the great video Bill, I really think that some of those specialized movements makers are much much better (horological) than some of those "in-house" movements.
Whether Lemania or Agnhor, in the future they will be the most collectable not the in house ones.
And don't forget the UWD by Marco Lang, Abdul! Take care and stay safe, Bill😷
Nice video Bill. I've had and have watches with ETA movements which are fine movements. Like you stated, base movements from other companies are used by many watch companies. Some very upscale. However, when you reach a certain price point, an inhouse manufacture movement has a certain cache' about it that adds value and prestige to the watch. Some might not be as good as some third party movements even. It could seem that you're getting more bang for the buck.
John, unless we allow ourselves to be at the mercy of the watch companies (and conglomerates) for getting information, we have to be cynical investigators. However, that's what makes watch collection interesting! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
1. I am less interested in legacy rather than the present or future. Because, I want the watch to be serviceable throughout my time.
2. It carries a lot of weight unless it is fake in-house. Like, the group owns many watch brand and each claiming to have different in house movement. It is just shared knowledge and expertise.
3. Price is the factor here. If the watch costs a lot, it should have impeccable finishing.
4. For high horology, definitely!
5. For independent and top brand, it should be a given like gold rotor.
Hi Nowshed, if you're going to spend a lot of money, you should get everything you want! I agree. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
This video helps to reorient people who have knee jerk reactions against third party movements. I agree with you that being particular about the movement is a critical element in assessing a potential watch purchase but that a watch should not automatically be excluded because it has a third party movement. Sometimes the value proposition of a watch with a third party movement can be superior to a watch at the same price point with an in-house movement. Other times a watch maker offers some of its references with more consequential movements than other of its references even at the same price point. In connection with the latter circumstance, I became interested in the work of Peter Speake-Marin at the firm named after him with which he severed his association. The Piccadilly references used ETA base movements while the Valsheda reference used a Vaucher movement. In addition, Mr. Speake-Marin had once worked for Parmigiani so there was also that association. I obviously purchased the Valsheda because of the enhanced quality of the base movement over the references with the ETA.
Very nice exposition, Howard. In criminal conspiracy cases you "follow the money," in watch collection, you "follow the movement." Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Excellent, as always!
Hey Richard, thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Another fascinating video. I really like thoseJN Shapiro and the Ophion watches, especially the Shapiro, it looks a lot like a Breguet. Great job and thanks as always Bill.
Indeed, the dial on that Shapiro is a treat as is the movement, Bruce. The price...not so much. The Ophion has excellent components and is priced for the average collector. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Thank you Bill, very very interesting video. Ciao da Roma 👍✋
Glad you enjoyed it Domenico! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Omega are adding in Piaget based movements for some of their higher end models
MJM, where did you find that information? Piaget is owned by Richemont and Omega by Swatch; and Swatch have cut off all but Swatch-owned brands from their ETA movements. Why would Richemeont allow Omega to use Piaget movement? Please let me know. Thanks. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@wataki_watcheswatakiwatche3160 You meant Frédéric Piguet (not Piaget). Swatch bought Frédéric Piguet and Blancpain together...(Frédéric Piguet owned Blancpain.)Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Oh dear my bad 🤦🏼♂️. Sorry, got your hopes up then...
Always was of the oppinion that a good movement is whats important, not who made it. Or as I'd put it in Car anthology the Shelby Cobra comes to mind, beautiful Body by AC and good heart by Ford! Together a perfect combination.
Well said, Paddy! Of course I want a Morgan and have no idea where the motor comes from! Take care and stay safe, Bill😷
Hi Bill.
Many compliments on the depth bredth of your knowledge, very impressive. This is complex topic to tackle.
To say the watch industry is incestuous, is understating the fact! My own personal feeling on this topic is very simplistic. If you make the movement yourself, in a watch bearing your name, then you're a watch maker. If you don't, then you're a watch assembler. I know that with the larger watch corporations, owning lots of different brands, this adds many, many layers of complication into my simple statement, but hopefully you get the idea.
Best and stay safe
There are so many nuances to watchmaking, Stuart, that more than one skill is required. But making an excellent mechanical watch begins with a good and honest movement. Now if a company that produces excellent watches, like Van Cleef & Arpels or JN Shapiro but don't make movements ... we can say they're excellent établisseurs, which is not a bad thing. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Hi Bill, it’s a great video. I used to be the kind of person who judges a watch by if it uses an in Hause movement and I am kinda out of that time now since during my own collection journey I experienced many good examples. For example regulator and chronoscope from chronoswiss (unfortunately they lost the spirit ever since the ceo was changed I must say) I used to like dwiss which is a micro brand and used eta movement with some „unique“ design but later I found such design was also appearing on some other micro brands. I think they share the same modified module from somewhere. I liked vicenterra which was also a micro brand and was nominated on gphp 2018 (lost to Habring) they have also some unique design I hardly saw before but 4800 Euro is not a small deal for me. I think a brand or needs to have its own spirit in its design, not just to copy some unique design and through it into a case and call them a collection.
Judgment is based on knowledge, that’s why I admire you since you know a lot and you experienced much more than most of us. I would like to hear your thought on for example vicenterra if it worth’s the money. What do you think is the modification of the movement. Cheers
Thomas
Hello Kis Gu, I like the idea of a brand "having its own spirit." That I find very true. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Fascinating video Bill. I’ve handled the VC & A dual time twice in recent days and it’s a real beauty, especially the back. I’m looking forward to seeing what Marco Lang comes out with next. Thanks again.
Jeffrey, I've had a lot of people ask me about where to get a Van Cleef & Arpels Pierre Arpels Heure d'Ici & Heure d'Ailleurs, and other than from VC&A directly I really don't know. Where did you find one? From the scuttlebutt I've been able to glean, the new Marco Lang's are starting at a fairly high price. €60-80,000(?). But rumors are just that; rumors. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Hi Bill. I’ve seen it at a VC &A boutique in a mall very near to where I live. Beautiful watch. I’ve looked for the watch on Chrono24 and elsewhere but so far I’ve seen it only in the boutique- and at a boutique price.
Hi Bill, The Hermes handbag you refer to here is called the Kelly Bag named, as you say after Princess Grace. Some can cost the price of a Calatrava and upwards!
That's what I was looking for, Mr. Rea. Thank you. Some years ago my wife and I were visiting the Hermès shop in Paris, and looked at a simple clutch, and it was several thousand dollars. I bought my wife a scarf instead. Even since then I've advertised an abundance of ignorance about handbags! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci 🤗
@austin rosin Needless to say which one I’d have!
@austin rosin And clearly not a Birkin in sight! 😂
Ps - iWC - exhibit #1.
Well, IWC's "other" movement is an ETA/Sellita. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
To what extent are the Breitling in-house movements actually different to an ETA movement? To what extent is an IWC in-house movement for a three handed watch different to an ETA movement?
Great point, Light! The B01 is quite a good movement, but it's only in 3 of Breitling's models-out of over 4,000 models. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
What do you think of the Baumatic movements. I say a Riviera which is really nice and another boasting a Baumatic for hundreds of dollars more with the in-house.
Andrew, the Baumatic is made by Richemont movement-maker ValFleurier, and while it may not be revolutionary, from what I know it's a solid movement. Take care, Bill
Rochemont owns 2 movement makers - Minerva and valfleurier?
Yes, Alexander. Minerva is dedicated to Montblanc for now, and ValFleurier will be continued to be used on different Richemont brands. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
I would think, based on "numbers/accuracy" it would be very difficult to beat a COSC ETA. Then add on the decoration. Not sure where an in house, is 'superior'.
Hi John Doe! A poorly made movement of any stripe is going to be less than a well-regulated one, even an ETA. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Regarding legacy - I dont have an issue with FPJ's legacy going back 2 days. He doesnt pretend. What pisses me off is people like Blancpain, Bovet, Droz, Arnold & Sons trying to capitalize on somebody else's history! It's the same way as you get ticked off when a company puts a cheap movement in a watch and tries selling it under their own movement name... I like heritage and heritage has to be there, not something you borrowed (worse stole) through naming your upstart the same name as somebody in the past.It's like some schmuck under the name Ivanov changing his last name to davinci and claiming that all the works of the great master belong to his ancestral heritage! WTF man?!
Alexander, there's more to it than that. In some respects, all of them rests on fractured histories. Bovet family members seemed to have lasted until the 1930s or 1940s, but by then Bovet was not the name brought to the Imperial Court of China. However, Pascal Raffey wanted to bring back much of that long-lost elegance to watchmaking and went so far as to buy the Bovet family palace where lucky watchmakers plied their trade. He also created Dimier to make movements, including hairsprings. Blancpain was one of the many casualties of the Quartz Crisis and was actually owned by Frédéric Piguet...the movement maker..., and so when Swatch bought Piguet, it got Blancpain and made Piguet the major component of Blancpain's movement works. The extent to which a watch company name is carried beyond the founder is fine with me ... it's a model of excellence to which the company can aspire.(Breguet can be added to that list, but Daniel Roth saved it from the brink of extinction ... ) Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci Bill thnx. Breguet has continuous operation. I dont think it ever stopped existence, did it?
Alexander, I believe they were "Breguet" in name only. The brand was owned by the Brown family for 100 years (1870-1970)... actually longer than it was owned by the Breguet family. In 1970 when George Brown sold Breguet to the Chaumet brothers, it was described as "run down," and it was during the first part of the Chaumet ownership that Daniel Roth was brought in to help revive the brand. To be fair, though, under Brown, Breguet did develop the Type 20 for the post-war French Air Force in the 1950s; admittedly a tool watch chronograph, but "not nothing." After the Chaumet brothers made some bad investment, they had to sell Breguet to Investcorp S.A., a Bahrain-based investment bank. During this period Invescorp bought Nouvelle Lemania S.A, and Lemania began doing all the movement making for Breguet. Later they were bought by Swatch. So while the Breguet name has been a brand name continuously since Abraham Louis Breguet, it's very hard to claim it to be the "same" company start by Abraham. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci Same company, not the same ownership. As opposed to a pretender company ) If I remember correctly, Browns worked for Breguets at some point in history... Look, BMW was a BMW in good times and in bad. Sometimes they built motorcycles, other times Natzi airplanes, then cars. But it's the same company.
cheers
Thank you for a very interesting episode, Bill. That Minerva movement in the Montblanc chronograph is truly a sight to behold.
Looking at that Minerva is like looking at a work of horological art, Zhopperman. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
just remember Hermes handbags can easily exceed the price of a Rolex (non gold or diamonds) . More $ in handbags than watches
Thanks Benny, I sort of got that idea on a visit to the Hermès shop at 24 Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré in Paris about 20 years ago. Even a simple clutch was $thousands! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Great class! I just look at watches simply. The watch company should do everything themselves - even includes the spring.
Nice video mate!
Hi Tim! (I just realized if you add an "e" to your name, it's "Time!") On the one hand, a full watchmaking company does make its own movement, but a little établissage can be valuable-like making their own springs. A huge part of H. Moser is selling their fantastic hairsprings. Even Agenhor has a hairspring made especially for them by a company that specializes in hairsprings-Atokalpa. Bovet, does it all, I believe, but they established Dimier by buying existing companies that were already making all the different components for a watch movement. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Only discovered your channel 2-3 days ago. Must say I'm impressed! Definitely one of the best out there. Your knowledge is superb. Thats why I want to hear your thoughts about 2 small French independents. First is Pascal Coyon. He made his first watch a couple of years ago and is now working at another series but the last is quite a lot more expensive. The other one is Florent Lecomte. He sis just finishing his first 10 pieces but you want find much info about them. If you are on Instagram, do check Lecomte_watchmaker. Would love to hear your thoughts. To be fair I own both
Bruno, thank you so much! I saw the Lecomte watch and was smitten! Beautiful work. I will have to find out how to get one of those. Pascal Coyon, on the other hand, while great versions of the Unitas 6498 ... at a price that more collectors can afford ... is not in the same league as Lecomte, but still outstanding work! I will definitely have to explore these two more! How would I contact Lecomte about a purchase? Take care and be safe, Bill😷
You can contact lecomte via Instagram, lecomte_watchmaker. His first 10 were sold out immediately but I know he will make other watches. Concerning the coyon, the first watch he made (60 pieces) that was also a bargain ( 5.000 euro) his second series is indeed more expensive, I believe 32.000 euro. I think it’s worth it but confess it’s not cheap. But this one also has a gold case. Concerning the price... it’s about the same as a patek Calatrava and in the case I might prefer the coyon.
Btw, are you on Instagram? Didn’t found you. If you want to see more pictures of both watches, you can find them under my account- collectible_warches. Unfortunately Instagram is more about pics and unfortunately showing off and less about knowledge... so glad I found your TH-cam channel.
Best regards
Bruno
:)
😉 Take care and be safe, Bill 😷