Interesting, this "Reverse translation" was the same method used in the Renaissance by the humanists, it was called "Double translation": Search this online and you'll see: "Double Translation in English Humanistic Education William E. Miller Studies in the Renaissance Vol. 10 (1963), pp. 163-174"
Hey Olly, There is nothing wrong in your translation from EN to ES... both expressions are correct and sound natural. Sometimes, one can express the same concepts in multiple ways without changing the meaning...
I'm going to start this today. I will be using some GCSE German textbooks, which have short enough pieces of interesting text, I think would be ideal for reverse translation. I've also started the gold list method which hasreally been great for helping me to remember vocabulary.
Hi Olly. This is a fantastic idea and one I'm going to start using straightaway. But "sé cuanto te gusta" is not a mistake. It's just as valid as "sé lo mucho que te gusta". A better "mistake" might be to mistranslate "if I had" since "I had" is tenía but " if I had" is "si hubiera" and thus it's a confusing point of grammar (subjunctive after "si").
I like the idea, the technique uses a double effort, i'm going to try it with my english and spanich, thanks Olly for the tip i hope to see more tips like this one.
Thanks for actually explaining the method, I watched several of Lucca's videos and could not find an explanation like yours, he sure can learn languages, but I would not pick him as my teacher, he has a tendency to ramble. Planning on trying this method with german
Wow... thanks a lot... I'm teaching and I compleyely forgot about this amazing way of teaching, although our teachers in university used it successfully. Thanks much
Excelent contribution! I'd like to watch much about kind of video for extended! if you´re able to translate therefore you're going in a right way! BECAUSE I've noticed that this kind of excercises drive your mind thinking in your target language! Congratulations! From Perú!
Sometimes if the textbooks I'm working in provide an English translation I'll practice reverse translation, but I've never tried it otherwise. It's not easy, but it can be helpful when trying to aurally comprehend particularly long and hard sentences.
Hi Olly! I know this is an old video, but I'm wondering exactly what you mean by "translation" here - do you need to do it all by memory, or can you use texts with words / grammar you don't know and translate using dictionaries etc? Thanks!
Well, the more familiar you are with the text, the more productive the exercise will be. If you’re battling to remember vocab, you’re not focusing on expressing meaning in the most accurate way.
So if you have an hour to study every day for your core study time, do you have a schedule for which activities that you do on which days? Curious to see how you divide your time.
Isn't this point of flashcards with sentences and just flipping side A to side B one day and reversing it the next? Or is this more of a way to test yourself with new material constantly as one might get familiar with the flashcard instead of the language concept and getting familiar with using phrases in new contexts? Lol I think I answered my own question.
Great idea. I'm going to do that. Should I try with your book ( English short stories for intermediate learners) ? My mother tongue is Brazilian Portuguese, but I speak Spanish pretty good.
Dear, Sir, I think there is a difference between revers and back That revers means gininv the opposite and back goinog back to the original. Better New Mark gave an example oc the opposition of munkry street and bright street, so how you can distinct, in going back of on the revers
That's exactly what Assimil propose with their active wave. Sounds great in theory. The problem there are many ways to express the same thing in any language. So to write something different than the "original" version doesn't mean it is wrong. OK let say I'm a British guy learning French. On the left page I see in French "Comment allez-vous ? On the right page an English version " How are you?" Later I have learn in French "Comment vas-tu ? Ça va ? So something perfectly correct but different from the "original" version.
That is a problem with translation in general. I use translation with Anki, doing sentences, expressions etc, because it helps me memorize better. Many times I make these mistakes which are not actual mistakes, but that is also good, because as I progress i find out about variations, and tend to learn more than one possible word/expression. Surely sometimes I might discard a valid alternative, but at some point I will be exposed to it again and realize it was right all along
Hi. Would you see differences as inherently problematic? My question is about how professional translations of a target language can differ, so are mistakes always a problem for you?
have a nice day, so what would we need to do once get that mistake found in a particular junction after translating into the target language. I mean what need to do resolve that mistake in order to change from second language. this is because currently I am doing a study that including with back translation. So i'll be very appreciate for the answer thanks
@@fehmibalandi4852 as a native speaker of Spanish I can tell you there is _nothing_ wrong with the second version produced, which is why I would never recommend this strategy or method.
What if you have a language with a different alphabet system , such as Chinese or Russian ? Do you use transliteration? Thanks for sharing such a valuable information.
Thanks, for the reply. The reason I'm asking about transliteration is because Luca , as far as I know, hasn't mentioned in his program. I'm a polyglot: I study seven languages. When you're beginning from scratch, surely bidirectional translation work; coupled with spaced time repetition.
Olly, is this something you still do? Wouldn't this conflict with your Story Learning approach? I can see the advantages of this method but it seems to run against the grain of CI in L2 only.
It’s a great question. The answer is yes, I still do this, but very selectively, perhaps when there is a particular grammar point I want to dive deeper on. The thing with any method like story learning is that it is inevitably reductive. Nothing should be absolute, but as a teacher, it’s usually helpful to present it in a fairly black-and-white way, because otherwise it can be difficult to understand for students if there are caveats and exceptions all over the place.
@@storylearning I totally agree. A look at the various methods polyglots employ, of which of course you are one, shows that there is no absolute way to acquire another language. Whether it's listening-reading, shadowing, bi lateral translation, story learning or more widely comprehensible input, it seems that all are valid methods dependent on a number of factors including but not limited to interest and motivation on the part of the learner. I imagine most people do a combination of all of the above in some way or other, yet perhaps for the reason you give above, and no doubt marketing and sales too, we do not see anyone advocating them in more than a passing sense of "this could be good too". I wonder whether we will get a "theory of everything" for language acquisition which incorporates all of the above into one cohesive methodology.
Sorry to disagree. You can do a "perfect" translation (there is no such thing anyway) when going into your L2 without actually producing a mirror of the original. Translation is not only a question of decoding... and your version just disproves the point you are trying to prove.
your translation actually highlighted a problem I was expecting with this method, namely that "sé cuanto te gusta..." is not wrong; it's just an alternative to "sé lo mucho que te gusta". If you translated the text back in a way that was correct and acceptable, but which was simply different from the original, then what's the value of the exercise?
You're right about the alternative right answers, but that's pointless if you're not an advanced learner, because in any case you will be learning a right expression. Yes, you might be discarding other possibilities, but if your not sure about how correct them are, it is better to stick with that word or expression you are 100 % sure about its correctness. If you are advanced enough to recongnize when an alternative answer was a good replacement, you simply take it as a rightful one and there's no big deal.
@@pingoleonfernandez7638 I see what you mean, but in some cases a text might use a turn of phrase that is less common than the translation you opted for, so your translation might be better. I guess the exercise could still be useful because it's very possible that beginners would make mistakes, or choose less appropriate translations.
All the differences between the original and your L2 text show where you are??! Seems like there are always plenty of alternate translations possible: a "difference" does not necessarily mean a mistake!!!
Great technique, perfectly explained by Olly as usual. I think, this technique is ideal if you only have the text written in the target language (which is the most common situation), and specially if you also want to work on comprehension. Now, using bilingual texts, like those articles that you can find on www.project-syndicate.org, you could avoid the first stage of this method. Would that be an advantage or a disadvantage? What would be the best way to use bilingual texts to improve expression? Thanks!
I think it would still work. It's just a time-saving device to use an English translation that already exists. However, translating into English at the beginning does have a benefit - it forces you to pay close attention to the original text. As a general rule, the easier you make it, the less effective it gets :)
Buena técnica. Thanks. Pero,en el ejemplo que pones " se cuanto te gusta..." me parece correcto también. :) Por .ejemplo Olly se cuanto te gusta el español por eso te comento esto:) So it can be with technique you write something different from the original that can also be right. There is a problem there, I think.
Fair enough - I probably gave a bad example of a mistake! You're right that it's possible to express a point in a different way that's still correct. If that's the case, you can still use it as an excuse to practise the "new" way, as it's an exercise, after all.
What if you have a language with a different alphabet system , such as Chinese or Russian ? Do you use transliteration? Thanks for sharing such a valuable information.
Interesting, this "Reverse translation" was the same method used in the Renaissance by the humanists, it was called "Double translation": Search this online and you'll see: "Double Translation in English Humanistic Education William E. Miller Studies in the Renaissance Vol. 10 (1963), pp. 163-174"
Elizabeth 1 was taught languages in that way, presumably during the mid- to late 1540s.
Hey Olly,
There is nothing wrong in your translation from EN to ES... both expressions are correct and sound natural.
Sometimes, one can express the same concepts in multiple ways without changing the meaning...
I'm going to start this today. I will be using some GCSE German textbooks, which have short enough pieces of interesting text, I think would be ideal for reverse translation. I've also started the gold list method which hasreally been great for helping me to remember vocabulary.
How did it go?
Dziekuje! I am going to try this with my koine Greek Bible tonight, the part about the last supper. Luke 22: 19, 20
Hi Olly. This is a fantastic idea and one I'm going to start using straightaway. But "sé cuanto te gusta" is not a mistake. It's just as valid as "sé lo mucho que te gusta". A better "mistake" might be to mistranslate "if I had" since "I had" is tenía but " if I had" is "si hubiera" and thus it's a confusing point of grammar (subjunctive after "si").
I'm not very good at inventing mistakes! :)
Hi Olly! Very clear explanation, thank you.
I like the idea, the technique uses a double effort, i'm going to try it with my english and spanich, thanks Olly for the tip i hope to see more tips like this one.
enjoy!
how did it work out for you
Your spanish pronunciation is amazing!
Thanks for actually explaining the method, I watched several of Lucca's videos and could not find an explanation like yours, he sure can learn languages, but I would not pick him as my teacher, he has a tendency to ramble. Planning on trying this method with german
Wow... thanks a lot... I'm teaching and I compleyely forgot about this amazing way of teaching, although our teachers in university used it successfully. Thanks much
Excelent contribution!
I'd like to watch much about kind of video for extended!
if you´re able to translate therefore you're going in a right way! BECAUSE I've noticed that this kind of excercises drive your mind thinking in your target language!
Congratulations!
From Perú!
Actually your second Spanish translation using cuanto is completely correct too!😁 BTW, you have an excellent Spanish pronunciation.
@@dietrevich Yes, it is, which is exactly why this method is not the best to learn a language.
Sometimes if the textbooks I'm working in provide an English translation I'll practice reverse translation, but I've never tried it otherwise. It's not easy, but it can be helpful when trying to aurally comprehend particularly long and hard sentences.
One place I used to do this a lot was with the Innovative Language sites or with the Colloquial textbook series.
Yes, they're both suitable because the texts aren't too long.
"Sé cuánto te gusta" is correct.
Hi Olly! I know this is an old video, but I'm wondering exactly what you mean by "translation" here - do you need to do it all by memory, or can you use texts with words / grammar you don't know and translate using dictionaries etc? Thanks!
Well, the more familiar you are with the text, the more productive the exercise will be. If you’re battling to remember vocab, you’re not focusing on expressing meaning in the most accurate way.
Great tip! I'm looking forward to trying this!
So if you have an hour to study every day for your core study time, do you have a schedule for which activities that you do on which days? Curious to see how you divide your time.
Not really... I tend to go "all in" on one activity that's working well for me for a few weeks, then move on to something different.
Olly Richards fair enough. Your success with language learning speaks for itself.
Isn't this point of flashcards with sentences and just flipping side A to side B one day and reversing it the next? Or is this more of a way to test yourself with new material constantly as one might get familiar with the flashcard instead of the language concept and getting familiar with using phrases in new contexts? Lol I think I answered my own question.
I am going to start this technique for French. How many times do you recommend this process. I love it, thank you sooo much.
How is it going?
Did it work?
thanks，you are good teacher in the world！
Great idea. I'm going to do that. Should I try with your book ( English short stories for intermediate learners) ? My mother tongue is Brazilian Portuguese, but I speak Spanish pretty good.
You can use anything, but try something that's a) short b) contains some grammar that you'd like to improve
Glad you're enjoying the short story book!
Excellent concept...wow.thanks for this
こんばんは。僕今二つの言葉を並行して勉強していてます。最近動画見てまーす。
Do you still use it this method and if so with what langauge? How is it going? Has it got any pitfalls?
I really like the method, thanks.
Very interesting! I wonder what Dr. Stephen Krashen would think of this method...
Dear, Sir,
I think there is a difference between revers and back
That revers means gininv the opposite and back goinog back to the original.
Better New Mark gave an example oc the opposition of munkry street and bright street, so how you can distinct, in going back of on the revers
Giving
Going , or ( these are spelling mis)
Murkh street and bright vision
And I am sorry for that it was because light
That's exactly what Assimil propose with their active wave. Sounds great in theory. The problem there are many ways to express the same thing in any language. So to write something different than the "original" version doesn't mean it is wrong. OK let say I'm a British guy learning French. On the left page I see in French "Comment allez-vous ? On the right page an English version " How are you?" Later I have learn in French "Comment vas-tu ? Ça va ? So something perfectly correct but different from the "original" version.
That is a problem with translation in general. I use translation with Anki, doing sentences, expressions etc, because it helps me memorize better. Many times I make these mistakes which are not actual mistakes, but that is also good, because as I progress i find out about variations, and tend to learn more than one possible word/expression. Surely sometimes I might discard a valid alternative, but at some point I will be exposed to it again and realize it was right all along
Great! I'll definitely try this
good luck!
Thanks!
Hi. Would you see differences as inherently problematic? My question is about how professional translations of a target language can differ, so are mistakes always a problem for you?
No, not at all. Differences between langs are one of the realities you need to get to grips with and it’s never an exact science.
have a nice day, so what would we need to do once get that mistake found in a particular junction after translating into the target language. I mean what need to do resolve that mistake in order to change from second language. this is because currently I am doing a study that including with back translation. So i'll be very appreciate for the answer thanks
@@fehmibalandi4852 as a native speaker of Spanish I can tell you there is _nothing_ wrong with the second version produced, which is why I would never recommend this strategy or method.
good
What if you have a language with a different alphabet system , such as Chinese or Russian ? Do you use transliteration? Thanks for sharing such a valuable information.
Sure. You're not practising the script, it's the language content. So you can use transliteration for sure.
Thanks, for the reply. The reason I'm asking about transliteration is because Luca , as far as I know, hasn't mentioned in his program. I'm a polyglot: I study seven languages. When you're beginning from scratch, surely bidirectional translation work; coupled with spaced time repetition.
Thank you!
thanks
Olly, is this something you still do? Wouldn't this conflict with your Story Learning approach? I can see the advantages of this method but it seems to run against the grain of CI in L2 only.
It’s a great question. The answer is yes, I still do this, but very selectively, perhaps when there is a particular grammar point I want to dive deeper on. The thing with any method like story learning is that it is inevitably reductive.
Nothing should be absolute, but as a teacher, it’s usually helpful to present it in a fairly black-and-white way, because otherwise it can be difficult to understand for students if there are caveats and exceptions all over the place.
@@storylearning I totally agree. A look at the various methods polyglots employ, of which of course you are one, shows that there is no absolute way to acquire another language. Whether it's listening-reading, shadowing, bi lateral translation, story learning or more widely comprehensible input, it seems that all are valid methods dependent on a number of factors including but not limited to interest and motivation on the part of the learner. I imagine most people do a combination of all of the above in some way or other, yet perhaps for the reason you give above, and no doubt marketing and sales too, we do not see anyone advocating them in more than a passing sense of "this could be good too". I wonder whether we will get a "theory of everything" for language acquisition which incorporates all of the above into one cohesive methodology.
Sorry to disagree. You can do a "perfect" translation (there is no such thing anyway) when going into your L2 without actually producing a mirror of the original. Translation is not only a question of decoding... and your version just disproves the point you are trying to prove.
your translation actually highlighted a problem I was expecting with this method, namely that "sé cuanto te gusta..." is not wrong; it's just an alternative to "sé lo mucho que te gusta". If you translated the text back in a way that was correct and acceptable, but which was simply different from the original, then what's the value of the exercise?
Looks like a great exercise to do with a native speaking tutor. A native speaker can judge whether the alternate form is correct or is a mistake.
You're right about the alternative right answers, but that's pointless if you're not an advanced learner, because in any case you will be learning a right expression. Yes, you might be discarding other possibilities, but if your not sure about how correct them are, it is better to stick with that word or expression you are 100 % sure about its correctness. If you are advanced enough to recongnize when an alternative answer was a good replacement, you simply take it as a rightful one and there's no big deal.
@@pingoleonfernandez7638 I see what you mean, but in some cases a text might use a turn of phrase that is less common than the translation you opted for, so your translation might be better. I guess the exercise could still be useful because it's very possible that beginners would make mistakes, or choose less appropriate translations.
All the differences between the original and your L2 text show where you are??! Seems like there are always plenty of alternate translations possible: a "difference" does not necessarily mean a mistake!!!
Cuánto, not cuanto (advanced Spanish) ;-) (by the way, cuánto is also correct) - from a native Spanish speaker
I'm pretty sure cuanto only needs an accent when it's a question
@@rudymelo880Accent also for emphatic purposes: "Quiero saber cuánto cuesta"
But doesn't that suppose that you wrote the translation back in your mother tongue accurately?
Great technique, perfectly explained by Olly as usual. I think, this technique is ideal if you only have the text written in the target language (which is the most common situation), and specially if you also want to work on comprehension. Now, using bilingual texts, like those articles that you can find on www.project-syndicate.org, you could avoid the first stage of this method. Would that be an advantage or a disadvantage? What would be the best way to use bilingual texts to improve expression? Thanks!
I think it would still work. It's just a time-saving device to use an English translation that already exists. However, translating into English at the beginning does have a benefit - it forces you to pay close attention to the original text. As a general rule, the easier you make it, the less effective it gets :)
Good point! Thanks!
Buena técnica. Thanks. Pero,en el ejemplo que pones " se cuanto te gusta..." me parece correcto también. :) Por .ejemplo Olly se cuanto te gusta el español por eso te comento esto:) So it can be with technique you write something different from the original that can also be right. There is a problem there, I think.
Comparto. No se puede hablar de error cuando no hay una palabra única y correcta: en ese caso particular no hay siquiera un matiz distinto.
Fair enough - I probably gave a bad example of a mistake! You're right that it's possible to express a point in a different way that's still correct. If that's the case, you can still use it as an excuse to practise the "new" way, as it's an exercise, after all.
u still remember the egyptain arabic or u forget it after your video :D ?
Make it for 3 sentences, later for 4 and so on 😅
What if you have a language with a different alphabet system , such as Chinese or Russian ? Do you use transliteration? Thanks for sharing such a valuable information.
You can use transliteration. Or you can use the script if you know it. It doesn't matter. You're practising grammar, not writing.