TCG Design Theory - Is 0-cost card draw broken?

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ธ.ค. 2023
  • In some games having a 0-cost effect that draws one card seems dangerously overpowered, and in some games it's nearly irrelevant. So what gives? Is this class of card fundamentally broken, or is it only powerful in very specific circumstances?
    Also, if the 0-cost draw is giving you more than one card, the answer is yes. I figured that bit wasn't especially controversial.
    I slightly changed my recording set up for this video. Everything here really came together quickly, so hopefully the next video is equally quick.

ความคิดเห็น • 76

  • @evilagram
    @evilagram 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +55

    Card draw is powerful relative to the other cards in the game. Upstart goblin became worse because if you're going second, you might draw it instead of a 0-cost hand trap, whereas a draw 2 has enough utility to be worth risking a dead draw during your opponent's first turn.
    Additionally, deck thinning is more powerful the smaller the starting deck size is, so a draw 1 is more powerful in Yu-Gi-Oh than magic.
    The theory in general goes, if there was no minimum deck size, players would make a deck that consists of their wincon, disruption, and absolutely nothing else, then win the game on the first turn. Draw effects & search effects bring you closer to this with larger minimum deck sizes.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  6 หลายเดือนก่อน +12

      I can't think of anything to add here, so I'll just say good summary!

    • @N12015
      @N12015 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      That being said, disruption in Duel Monsters (Yu-Gi-Oh is the brand, not the game), making plays very commital, even for something as simple as a draw 1 card, and decks are already incredibly consistent, with almost all main monsters being starters and extenders. You'd rather play an interruption or a tutor than a draw 1 who allows a window for a handtrap to activate.

    • @evilagram
      @evilagram 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      @@N12015 Duel Monsters is the name of the game on the TV Show. They did that so the character Yugi wouldn't be playing a game with his name in it. In real life the game is called Yu-Gi-Oh.

  • @featherlessbiped1204
    @featherlessbiped1204 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +73

    I actually disagree with your point about disruption. If your opponent uses counter/negation on your free cycle, they have one less counter/negation to use on your most impactful cards.

    • @fernandobanda5734
      @fernandobanda5734 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +23

      That assumes that you have a more impactful play and your draw was bait, which isn't always the case.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +26

      A lot of that does depend on the speed of the game - it's much more impactful in yugioh than MTG, for example. In a slower game it's much more of a corner case, but there's still situations when players are low on cards that being able to set your opponent back by a turn might be enough of an advantage to be worth it.

    • @lesternomo6578
      @lesternomo6578 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

      while you probably should almost never specifically counter a cantrip, i think the point is very valid that cantrips that draw cards can be disrupted in a really brutal way, with cards like sheoldred, orcish bowmasters, narset, and faerie mastermind (or hullbreacher if you're going back that far). Cards like those make drawing cantrips extremely punishing and would always be better off being a copy of a removal spell or a threat of your own, making them much less free-rollish

    • @XenithShadow
      @XenithShadow 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

      @@tcgacademia Its more so that its only relavent in yugioh or other games system that have cost counter effects. As countering a 0 cost cantrip literally does nothing as you can just counter the card they drew instead, there are some very niche cases where you have on cast triggers, but generally the better draw efficiency makes alot of free cantrips quite broken.

    • @Laezar1
      @Laezar1 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Well the point was that it gives your opponent more OPTIONS to negate your play because of that extra step. For exemple if you have a card that would specifically negate card draw, or would negate a low cost spell but not a high cost one, or there is an effect in play that increase the cost of every card played (effectively increasing the cost twice for that card you draw with a cycling card) or a whole other range of possible effects that would be able to disrupt that cycling card but not the card you were planning to actually play.
      Hell, the simplest one would be if the card you are going to draw is impossible to counterspell then by adding that extra step you make it possible to counter (for that turn). Or a card that has value in the graveyard making countering the draw preferable.
      Of course it's not going to be the right choice most of the time but it's an extra option that the opponent have.

  • @respectblindfolds7411
    @respectblindfolds7411 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +16

    Small nitpick, but Droll isn't a perfect analog here. Droll won't actually stop you from drawing off of Upstart Goblin, it will only stop you from searching off the subsequent Aliester. This is because it doesn't trigger until a card has entered the hand, and then it applies until the end of the next turn. Again, small gripe, but felt I should mention it. Ash Blossom would've been a much closer point of comparison.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      Dang, I was actually going to use Ash Blossom (it's actually in the raw audio), but I edited it out since I was like "wait, does Ash actually work like that?" Should have just used Magic Jammer like the yugi-boomer I am. Thanks for clarifying, I suspected I was walking into something in that bit XD

    • @Zetact_
      @Zetact_ 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      On the other hand, if you had both Droll and Ash and your opponent activates a blind card draw like Upstart Goblin or a more meta relevant card like Pot of Prosperity, I think the right play to make would be to use the Droll. Sure there is the CHANCE that they might draw into Called by the Grave and kill your Droll but there's always a chance they have Called by the Grave. If you Droll the Upstart you've impacted their entire turn, and you still have the Ash to use for later when a more impactful effect might come into play. [And in the case of Prosperity, choosing to use Droll instead of Ash gives you knowledge.]
      In the example given the Droll doesn't prevent Upstart from getting to Aleister but it DOES temporarily make Aleister into a brick. In the case of a meta where people are main decking Droll, Upstart is made worse because it can impact your entire turn for just some deck thinning.

    • @respectblindfolds7411
      @respectblindfolds7411 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Zetact_ This is all true, but this is all in the context of an analog to Force of Will. Droll is not Force of Will.

    • @DualSwordBesken
      @DualSwordBesken 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@respectblindfolds7411 Since we are all being nitpicky here and it seems fun, Force of Negation. Had it been Force of Will, waiting on the card they cast after would be the correct option, but Force of Negation has the restriction of only hitting non-creature spells, so it couldn't stop the Gurmag Angler follow-up and exiles the Gitaxian Probe, preventing it from fueling a follow-up Gurmag Angler as well.

    • @tcoren1
      @tcoren1 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@tcgacademia droll on upstart is like the number 1 way to showcase why upstart is a terrible card nowdays, so the example still works

  • @Zetact_
    @Zetact_ 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +14

    I think that it really depends on how much leeway there is in deckbuilding and how much space there is for a playset of cards that don't serve to do anything other than deck thin. If you can realistically fill out everything your deck "needs" with space to spare and there aren't better options, such cards are broken but if the card pool is large enough that players always are struggling to keep their deck size small then these sorts of cards are far less relevant. If your game has a deck size of 50 but most players can make their full strategy with 40 cards, then 0-cost draw is broken because their deck doesn't need that space, but if players are struggling to get the strategy together without going to 51 or 52 cards then 0-cost draw won't be relevant - they don't have the luxury of throwing it in.
    To use the Upstart example, Yugioh is at a space where Upstart still is a moderately useful card but if you dedicate 3 spots of your deck to something else like an extra set of hand traps or a mini-engine that you get more reward out of it. Upstart was most prevalent in earlier formats where the 3 spots it would take up wouldn't individually be able to impact your strategy significantly and where you would be drawing through your deck more because games would be longer so thinning it was more relevant, but nowadays there are so many options for cards in the meta that there's always a better option to just deck thinning. The "I have space so might as well use this to fill up my 40 cards" could be better filled by stuff that impacts board state.
    Yugioh's pile meta of a couple years ago can be pointed to as to why Upstart isn't really relevant any more - it's possible to make entire decks where all you do is throw together a bunch of disconnected engines and they work because each individual card just goes through its entire cycle of plays by itself. You could just play 3 Fenrir instead of Upstart and get the exact same result on total deck size, only you also get a beater that banishes cards on the field and that's just one example of an engine of a single card, there are others that are 2 or 3 cards that you might not need to run at maximum so with a little extra space you could squeeze something in.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Upstart Goblin is one of the most interesting cases, since it's the only one I can think of that went down from 'really good' to 'niche role-player.' Gitaxian Probe went from 'good', to 'everywhere', to banned, and I doubt it will ever come off the ban list. Like you say, the space that your deck engine takes up really determines how good these cards are in the abstract, so the more options you're trying to run, the less you want generic cyclers. I think speed is important as well - in yugioh, having to wait a turn to spin your spell into a hand trap (for example) is often too late - you want that hand trap from turn 1. This was much less important when hand trap interaction and easy OTKs were much less common.

    • @jordangroblewsky2087
      @jordangroblewsky2087 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@tcgacademia Gitaxian Probe specifically is also insane because you get to see your opponent's hand. 0-cost cantrip that gives you free information to know if it's safe to run out your combo or flood the board with more creatures is just nuts.

    • @yurisei6732
      @yurisei6732 หลายเดือนก่อน

      But if players are struggling to fit everything they want in their deck, you probably have bigger design problems - for example, your "fun cards" may be different cards from your "good cards", and players need to be given card options that tie the synergistic elements they like to the basic ramp/draw/disruption/removal effects they need .

    • @Zetact_
      @Zetact_ หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@yurisei6732 Not necessarily, if the deck space is just tight enough that you need to make some decisions at the end of deck building on either cutting a card, or fiddling with ratios, or just going over minimum deck size that makes for an additional layer of meaningful decision making in the game and is an aspect of player expression. In Yu-Gi-Oh there are some players who are completely comfortable with going over 40 because it actually maximizes their statistical odds of getting a good opening hand, especially if their deck has a Garnet. Branded is a deck that has developed to where running up to 60 cards is considered to be a more or less standard build.
      If players are regularly putting cards in the deck with just the express purpose of padding out space it might be a sign that there aren't enough good cards to work with.

    • @yurisei6732
      @yurisei6732 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Zetact_ My point was more applicable to games where deck size has to be exact, eg MTG Commander, in fairness. Even in decks with flexible limits though, if players are regularly finding that they have to significantly reduce their consistency because there's a certain set of cards they have to have to be competitive, in addition to whatever other cards they're playing, that's a problem, because people aren't then doing it because they want to gain an optional edge in a niche situation, ie not drawing garnets, they actually don't want to do it but don't have a choice.
      This is something you sometimes see in indie games that have too much separation between interaction and combo, where the interactive half of your deck can end up completely decoupled from the combo side of it, sharing only the resources spent to cast them.

  • @TQuantP
    @TQuantP 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    I don't know about other games, but in MTG probe was a card every deck played in modern no matter the archetype or colors.
    0 mana draw a card is extremely valuable and has practically no downside (you never want to counter it btw) for the purpose of filterint through your deck.
    Including other synergistic minor effect like fetch lands in every deck also hepls minorly (a fetch is equal to 1 extra non-land card drawn per ~16 cards drawn for anyone that didn't know).
    All in all probe as an example here made modern a turn 3 format instad of a turn 4, this means that it held significant power on it's own.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      0-mana draw can be good or mid, but as soon as you staple an additional effect on it, like Probe, it gets stupidly powerful.

    • @AgaresOaks
      @AgaresOaks 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      No. As the video pointed out, by this logic Street Wraith should be an auto-include in every single deck and it isn't even an auto-include in Death's Shadow anymore. It's still an auto-include in Living End, but it's obviously a lot better than... a literal pile of cards no one even thinks of using outside of Living End because they're completely unplayable.

    • @lisan3627
      @lisan3627 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Probe was absolutely not played for the filtering and I kind of wish the video brought this up. Getting to know your opponent's entire hand for the measly cost of 2 life without any card disadvantage was what pushed Probe over the top.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@lisan3627 I alluded to that in the video when comparing it to Street Wraith, but yeah, it's definitely more an issue of cards costing 0 mana, 0 cards in hand, AND giving you another advantage. In most games, playing a 0-cost cantrip just for deck thinning is about as relevant as playing fetchlands just for deck thinning - ie. not worth it.

  • @admiralcasperr
    @admiralcasperr 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Cool. I like that this mildly shorter video got out so soon.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Yeah, being stuck inside because it's been raining for the last month has been great for productivity! There's another shorter one I'm quite excited about I should have out hopefully in a similar time frame. Feels good to be getting a few ideas that have been kicking around out into videos!

  • @bobboberson8297
    @bobboberson8297 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Also something I didn't see mentioned is that playing disruption can basically be free draw too. If you live extra turns you draw more cards. If you force of will your opponent's removal spell, you get to keep generating value with your cards in play, so it's not really a 2 for 1 and cantrips are competing for these spots in your deck.

  • @drunkcrunkfranken
    @drunkcrunkfranken 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    I'd say it's pretty dependent on how important it is to have cards in deck in whatever game you're playing. Like in Wixoss, drawing from your deck inherently means that you're partially milling yourself, which is why sifting effects (draw x, discard x) can end up feeling painful to use. I actually played against a RBU Carnival deck in GP that was built around not any draw effects whatsoever to avoid getting decked out by Phalaris+USH, which let him keep 1 extra life cloth, making it that much harder to beat him.
    In Pokemon and YGO Rush Duel you actually do end up needing cards in deck that actually do something so Upstart Goblin-type effects end up being dead weight. I know in early Pokemon, games frequently ended in topdeck matches where one person decks out. Drawing a cantrip or even a Professor Oak in these situations can really hurt. In YGO Rush, you draw until you have 5 cards every turn with 40 cards in deck, so deckout is a viable win con that you can pivot into a lot of the time, so the game is partially about carefully managing your limited resources. A lot of effects in Rush even have mill 1-2 cards from your deck as a cost, and it's actually impactful!
    Modern YGO is also an interesting case because your deck is a resource in a slightly different way. On one hand, games can just end in 2 turns and frequently do, but on the other, the game is so hyper-consistent with a boatload of search effects so you would be kneecapping yourself by running cards that 1) go away after they're used, 2) aren't searchable, 3) even if they were they'd effectively be equivalent to "searching" a random card from your deck, which doesn't cut it in an environment when every other card in your deck can get you exactly what you need. At minimum, you'd rather be running redundancies for cards that are already in your deck, in case your first copy of any given card gets interrupted by an Ash Blossom or something. Even Pot of Desires (banish top 10 cards face-down to draw 2) is basically only considered borderline playable these days because it can end up banishing cards that you need to search for, which would be disruptive to your combo engine.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Decking out is an interesting case, since it doesn't come up all that often, but in games like Rush Duels it really would make a difference. Cool to hear about that Carnival deck that ratio'd out of getting decked out - at this point I've basically accepted that most games mill is going to take 1 life. It is really neat seeing just how much these effects swing from being really strong to mostly ignored.

  • @wickederebus
    @wickederebus 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Good news, Upstart Goblin is back to 3, and Pot of Desires is back to 3 as well.

  • @jasonking271
    @jasonking271 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Man I really miss your videos, could you do a individual deep dive video on some of the top/up and coming tcg.
    I want see what make these tcg great and what make pple drawn to them.
    (to tell you the truth i could do this myself but im too lazy and plus i love ur video 😂) keep it up sensie

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I'll probably do a few shorter videos before diving into a full review, since those tend to take a while, but I've been playing One Piece lately and am definitely doing a video on that one, and I also have a few other tcgs floating around like Battle Spirits and Shadowverse that I want to get to soonish as well. So definitely more on the way!

    • @RarecuisineSaucegod-ig8bc
      @RarecuisineSaucegod-ig8bc 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@tcgacademiadefinitely want your opinion on BSS and one piece. I believe that BSS is superior, despite it's fraction of popularity compared to one piece. But I do applaud Bandai for making a game with such a popular IP so simple to keep people who have never played a card game hooked.

  • @guilty_neco
    @guilty_neco 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Wake up babe a new academia vid dropped

  • @chrisshorten4406
    @chrisshorten4406 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Just like every other war criminal, Pekora WOULD be arrested for something that wasn't a war crime.

  • @Laezar1
    @Laezar1 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    they aren't inherently broken but they need a lot of caution to be made both not broken and interesting.
    One of my favorite similar effects is imperative bell in mythgard. It's a 2mana card (bear with me) that's an artifact you place down and once per turn you can secretly target a minion and if that minion get killed during the opponent turn you get 2mana immediately, draw a card and get to play a card (you typically can't play cards during the opponent turn in that game).
    It's really interesting because it's got a lot of advantages (interaction during opponent turn, ramp, synergy with artifacts, deck thinning) but also a lot of flaws (can only be played turn 2+, takes time to take effect and mana to invest in, opponent can play around it, if you play a card with an activated ability you can't immediately trigger it and a few others that are very specific to that game like card burning decisions or a tech card that hurt it a lot)
    Even if at it's core it's 0 mana : draw 1, in term of what the general effect is, it's just really interesting to build around and play around in a game.
    My favorite way to abuse it is with blight cards that wither the opponent minion at the start of it's turn, meaning I can target their own minion instead of mine and set it up so they die from the blight the turn I want the effect to trigger basically forcing it instead of relying on the opponent. While it does away with a lot of the mindgame it also requires pairing with another color (there is no blight effect in the color of that card) and can require some careful planning to set up a powerful turn you want so it's still interesting. But you can find tons of other ways to abuse it like pairing it with artifact synergy, cost reduction (making the mana refund into a net positive), or disrupting decks that rely on sacrifices (since you can hold on onto removal until they sacrifice the card you targeted to make them lose even more resources).
    Not going anywhere with this just wanted to share that neat card and how a very simple effect can have a great deal of depth if given enough to work with.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I really love cards like that - they can be really strong, but take a bit of effort to make them actually work in a deck. Cards like that make for really interesting deck building decisions, and can add a ton of variety into games. Comboing Bell with Blight is a really neat strategy!

  • @yusheitslv100
    @yusheitslv100 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Something I think should be kept in mind is how much raw card advantage means in a game, or even a given format.
    Coming primarily from Yu-Gi-Oh (still play it, and I'm very much a YugiZoomer): raw vard advantage IS Yugioh's resource system, and it's a bit of an adjustment when learning a game where raw card advantage is secondary to something else. In Yugioh communities, people often talk about cards or combos in terms of how much you "plus" off of it. Meaning: how many cards are there between your hand and board before & after resolving an effect or finishing a combo.
    I picked up Digimon earlier this year, and I still find myself chuckling because of how much raw card advantage seemingly doesn't matter, rather the contents of your hand matters. You could have the right stuff in hand to combo off given the board state...but then your opponent passes turn, giving you only 1 memory and you don't have a memory setter and/or not enough ways to reduce costs/gain memory. On the flip side, you draw a card every time you use the game's primary gameplan progression mechanic (evolution/digivolution), and there's no hand size rule. Ending turn with 10 cards in hand isn't a flex.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Digimon is definitely funny like that. Flesh and Blood and other 'draw up' games also make raw card advantage much less central to gameplay. Although even in yugioh, it varies a bit - since Upstart has kind of gone up and down in how much it's played. Card advantage plays a role, but I think the most important thing is deck space, and how important individual cards are - in some games your engine takes up so much deck space you don't really have space for blanks like Upstart.

  • @Yinyanyeow
    @Yinyanyeow 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    If it helps, the game's rules can poke how much a card effect can hit. I mean drawing cards is different if you can draw up to hand size per turn or that certain cards gain cards at the end. Then search is stronger.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Good point! This kind of effect would be pretty pointless in a game like Keyforge, for example.

    • @Yinyanyeow
      @Yinyanyeow 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@tcgacademia and certain games have you draw as your action per turn.

    • @XenithShadow
      @XenithShadow 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@tcgacademia This kind of effect would be broken in keyforge, as your decks are smaller and unlike alot of other card games you reshuffle your deck when it runs out. Therefore free cantrips are insanely broken in this style of card game.
      As game with reshuffling decks and free cantrips have a tendency to enable infinite combos or just playing your entire deck on a loop. As seen in slay the spire or its many clones. This is due to the fact that the free cantrip servers the purpose of being a card in the deck while not actualy reducing the chance of getting a specific card.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@XenithShadow With Keyforge, it comes down to how '0-cost' works there. As long as it still follows the games faction system, there's a 67% chance you can't use the card you draw during the turn you draw it. A one turn delay generally takes this effect from good to barely playable. It would be a lot stronger if you could play it on any faction, though.

  • @altrivotzck6565
    @altrivotzck6565 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Patches the Pirate is pretty similar, but slightly different from the rest of these, in interesting ways.
    It doesn't clog up space in your mulligan, since you don't need it in your hand to use its effect, except that having it in your hand is a pretty large downside, since it has to be in your library for its "free card draw + 1/1" effect to activate, otherwise only being a vanilla 1/1 for 1. Also, you have to be playing a certain tribe/creature type to even use its effect.

  • @TempestDacine
    @TempestDacine 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Id say its also a critical mass issue. Upstart on its own is no problem but when ygo had 20+ cantrip spells you had ftk combo decks. And like you said in a more structured game like wixoss you often can't afford to disrupt your curve for something like that.

  • @kered13
    @kered13 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Every other TCG: Zero cost draw 1 cards must be carefully balanced with drawbacks.
    Pokemon: Zero cost draw 1 with no drawbacks is unplayable.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      XD I love when power scales get bonkers like that. Not every game has to be balanced around Divination.

  • @tabbune
    @tabbune 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The wixoss cantrip (more specifically the colorless one) didn't see play because it took up a Life Burst slot (you have to have exactly 20 Life Bursts). This was an issue because a lot of your more powerful cards are also Life Bursts. Your level 4 signis are life bursts, but your better early game signis, like the archetypal generic level 1 that taps to add the topdeck if it's the correct type, are also life bursts.
    A lot of the cards mentioned in this video have the same issue of having another form of opportunity cost. Gitaxian Probe didn't, which is why it's broken. Street Wraith's 2 life isn't marginal especially in multiples. Upstart Goblin replaces a card that could've been a handtrap

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Arguably, being colourless in early Wixoss was an even bigger downside than the life burst because of how colour-intensive costs were. But yeah, even where it's not obvious, there are real opportunity costs to putting these cards in your deck, which is why despite the theoretical boost in consistency, this class of card is never an auto-include.

    • @tabbune
      @tabbune หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@tcgacademia I don't think the color actually mattered. If it was in your Life Cloth, its Life Burst was Ener Charge 1, so you're going to end up with colored ener either way. If it's in your hand, you just don't ener charge it and just use it to cycle

  • @yurisei6732
    @yurisei6732 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I'd argue that 0-cost draw is inherently broken only if a game is well-designed. If it's not broken, it's probably because you've managed to make a card game where having more consistency doesn't matter or where playing more cards doesn't matter. The first tends to occur in games that are already overloaded with draw power or that are so restrictive in what you can play that most of your hand at any given time is dead. The second tends to occur in games that are very low-interactivity and unga-bunga.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  หลายเดือนก่อน

      True in both cases, although it's also strong in games with smaller card pools - since decks built around a small number of components comboing off get a significant consistency boost.

  • @Theoszombie
    @Theoszombie 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What are the card games at 2:48 and 3:08?

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      That's Wixoss. It's a personal favourite of mine.

  • @hiphur4524
    @hiphur4524 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I'll disscus hearthstone here. So hearthstone has strict class system, and with 11 classes that means with perfect balance each class represents 9% of the meta. One of the main Blizzard balancing goals is to make sure that strongest class right now isn't too strong and the weakest class is still playable to some degree. One of the methods they use for that is card balancing, but the other is intentionally making meh cards for one class and almost OP for another. Latter sometimes results in auto include cards that you play in a class regardless of what archetype you're playing and it's kinda fine as long as that class isn't dominating.
    So with that there was 2 0 cost class cards that replaced itself that I remember. 1st is aquatic form from druid which let's you look at 3 cards on the bottom of your deck and either add 1 on top or draw it if you have mana to play it. So it is probably most auto include of auto include cards, like 100% of druid deck ran 2 copies: card doesn't just replace itself, but also gives consistency boost. The only "downside" is that you have to wait to turn 3 to activate it, but that doesn't matter at all. It doesn't "feel" broken to players, however if Blizzard nerf it druid will get marginally worse but I doubt that happens, also rotation is half a year away.
    Other card is First day of school which for paladin which effect for 0 cost read "Add 2 random 1 cost minions to your hand". This card also was 100% auto include. From pool of cards that you can get, none of them were bad and on average you got an amazing card and a decent card for free (also it synergised with a set mechanic). This time Blizzard nerfed it since Libram paladin was kinda too good and this card (with another auto include card from palabin) got nerfed to 1.
    IDK what conclusion to give, maybe that if your card game has strict class system that it is fine that classes have generically OP cards until it doesn't, and that I should touch grass. Also sorry for bad english

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Hearthstone is one game I haven't played, so it's always neat hearing about it. Your point about these kind of effects becoming auto-includes is a really good one - when these cards get banned or nerfed, it's usually not because they're completely breaking the game, but because they get played in basically every deck. It makes deck building a little more boring if you always start with 3 Upstart Goblin, or 4 Gitaxian probe.

    • @goncaloferreira6429
      @goncaloferreira6429 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      interesting first paragraph. it is weird that a game balances itself around classes.

    • @dawg1744
      @dawg1744 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@goncaloferreira6429MTG balances itself around colors too. Git probe's prevalence is mostly fault of the phyrexian mana mechanic. Same with Mental Misstep

  • @tcoren1
    @tcoren1 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Upstart goblin is such a bad card in modern yugioh. Imagine playing upstart going second and drawing an handtrap that could've helped you during opponent's turn. Imagine getting drolled on a cantrip. Imagine getting walled by anti spell, naturia beast, and stuff like herald boards. Imagine losing in time due to your cantrip. Imagine playing 37 cards when arguably for a lot of deck something like 42 is optimal (due to garnets, searchable 1-ofs, and just the general more engine = better grind game).
    I would argue even in the olden days the deck thinning was just as marginal a gain as 1000 LP was a marginal lost, unless you were playing something truly unfair

    • @tcoren1
      @tcoren1 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Forgot to mention one more reason upstart is bad: it does nothing if milled.
      Never mind upstart goblin, in the occasional no-banlist tournaments tear decks don't even run pot of greed (they do run graceful charity though lol)

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I do find it funny how in modern yugioh, Graceful Charity is basically a draw 3. But yeah, one of the things that got me interested in this video was just how bad Upstart was in the modern game. Not sure it was ever correct, but I do remember articles that basically said "always run the maximum Upstarts unless you can only OTK through 8k life!1!"

    • @tcoren1
      @tcoren1 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@tcgacademia I'm heavily biased against upstart to be fair, I think it's a bad card that exemplifies bad deckbuilding.
      I think both the deck thinning and LP downside are very marginal (especially since the LP thing is only relevant if you draw upstart), with only the former being treated as negligible.
      A full dive into whether upstart truly was really a strong card in old yugioh is a bit beyond my abilities.
      One thing for sure though - 3 upstart 3 chiken game 3 terraforming 3 pseudospace WAS good in heavy combo decks, and those decks are not fun to play against

    • @N12015
      @N12015 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​​​​​@@tcoren1I'll be honest with You: A Lot of times it feels in those old formats JAR OF GREED is the better card. You have to wait a turn, BUT in exchange it could bait removal like MST or Dust tornado to get a net +1 without healing them after using judgment outside BLS range.
      Upstart Goblin in Edison is also rarely ran despite being at 3, and definitely is not used outside hyper-combo or control like Dragon Turbo or some Machina decks, which most decks are not (Also applies to Avarice who's only good in multiples on decks with heavy mill like Lightsworms or frogs, and is countered by crow). Also been baited like a dozen of times by Jar of Greed 2.0 aka legacy of Yata; tbf both are not really used because there's better cycling cards like allure, E, avarice, Black Whirlwind, RotA, Gladiator beast RotA, Solar recharge, morphing jar or Stratos/Gearframe.

    • @dodang_9147
      @dodang_9147 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@N12015 the waiting extra turn is huge drawback. The point of the card was to deck thin immediately, not to bait removals. If your willing to wait turns, then you might as well just use Shard of greed which gives +1 draw after 2 turns. Both of these card are downright terrible.

  • @0penthaughtz
    @0penthaughtz 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Interesting

  • @MagicApocalypseTCG
    @MagicApocalypseTCG 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I probably will not have zero cost cards instead I will have increases and decrease because my trading card game I am working on right and I just made a channel about it is based on magic the gathering.

    • @tcgacademia
      @tcgacademia  6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      0 cost effects can be really tempting to add in, but they are always really hard to balance properly - sounds like you're keeping a close eye on the issue!

    • @MagicApocalypseTCG
      @MagicApocalypseTCG 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@tcgacademia oh trust me I don’t what I doing i am like lord ainz when it’s crafting something.

    • @MagicApocalypseTCG
      @MagicApocalypseTCG 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@tcgacademia Well, you watch my channel and give your opinion I am a nervous and loath self steam reck.