I really enjoy listening to your take on these “what if” scenarios, I hope you might have the time and interest in doing more for major events all throughout history.
The portuguese king knew of Brazil before the treaty hence why the line covers it. Funny how 5 days after the treaty is signed the portuguese discovery a massive land mass on their side of the treaty lines lol
Fascinating take. I never thought of a reverse triangle slave trade developing with an Aztec empire before, but I could totally see that happening in an alternate universe!
@@apologu Well the “Arab invasion” isn’t really real The spread of Islam through conquest did cause an influx of Arabs however they hardly settled outside of Egypt *(and only added 5-7% to the population)* The North of Africa is genetically Berber and only shares a religion/script with Arabs (Speaking Vastly different dialects of Arabic and in many nations different languages that are only written in Arabic) That isn’t synonymous with European Colonization
@@apologu also the “Arab Invasion” (Aka the spread of Islam) didn’t spread to far past the Sahelian Region so Africa was still filled with numerous competing kingdoms/Empires/Confederations
Way late to the party, but I also wonder what effect not colonizing the Americas would have had on Africa! Seems like the Empires would have more resources to dedicate there. (I’m only 3/4s through so if he answers that, forgive me, but it just sprang to mind)
I think the most interesting discussion regarding this is discussing the reasons why they were overran by the european powers. They were obviously less centralized than european states, with the more advanced civilizations with great cities mostly taking the form of city-state-like structures, making their military and administrative powers smaller. I think a big reason why the societies in the americas was small in scope, was that they didn't have horses or cows. No cows means a lot less food, as there is no milk, they can't help with farming crops, and you also can't eat them. No horses means a lot less effective mobility around the continents, meaning less trade, slower armies, worse supply lines for those armies, with everything needing humans instead of animals. Having common animals between America and Europe would hopefully also give immunity to diseases
The answer was disease. The Inca Emperor died because of disease and then the Empire went into civil war. But European diseases killed between 50%-70% of the population.
Specifically the timing of the disease - Europe had been ravaged by the plague 150 years earlier. The native Americans were more advanced than the Europeans in agriculture and there is growing evidence that the buffalo was their version of the aurochs (cow/bull) and might actually have been domesticated to some degree.
They had Llamas in the Incan empire and the whole continent of S. and N. America the natives had dogs and the Inuits used dogs to help them carry things
@@sleekoduck buffalo are pretty much undomesticable though, you put them in any fence and they'll either jump it or batter it down - one of those animals where there's huge potential but no practical route to get there
@@hallooos7585 llamas are far less cooperative than the Old World domesticated animals, plus there's only them so you can only have limited production of animal goods. Lacking specialists for wool, meat, eggs, milk and labour as (mostly) separate responsibilities might have hampered the Inca more if they weren't mountain dwellers, living in that environment really limits the utility of animals other than the llama. It was their best and only choice but it did come with a low production cap
The part I really would like to look at more deeply is the nature of American civilization before the Europeans. Without livestock slavery, human sacrifice, and even cannibalism was more prominent in many places. But more than that the Americas also were highly technological. They produced the worlds first mega-cities. They also produced the world's biggest collapses. They developed truly huge networks of trade and new crops like corn . . . and then they didn't. Many native cultures had a mythology that talked of circular time and it was based on historical fact. The Pre-classical Maya had truly huge cities that were lost to the jungle partially due to how much land they paved over and its impact on rain patterns. The Classical Maya may have collapsed due to a drought caused by cutting down too many trees. . . and when the Spanish arrived some cities still survived to start the pattern again. We see the same thing with the "Finished People" in the southwest, with the Cahokia and the Mississippian mound builders. The Inca's look to break the trend and they were moving people around to develop a stable ethnic state much like China had long before; with the same sort of brutal "first empire' methods. The big thing the American civilizations lacked was the mellowing impact of the Persian empire and later Christianity/Islam. They weren't backward when you exclude their access to livestock and how that made them susceptible to disease. The cotton age was every bit as important as the iron age in Europe, and native metal workers were much better at alloying gold with other metals even if they lacked knowledge of iron. But given your scenario they could LEARN iron working and trade for livestock from Europe, just as Europeans could trade for potatoes, Cotton, alloyed gold/silver goods, chocolate . . . and yes slaves for their sugar plantations. The Meso/south American trade might be just as lucrative as that with China but the people they are trading with aren't NICE. Just because a culture got the short end of the stick in our history doesn't mean they are people you wouldn't WISH a gigantic plague on. The Mexica were definitely on their way out, but the Tlaxcala weren't any better and they allied with Europe to take over in OUR timeline. It's easy to imagine them forming a truly oppressive empire that was just as completely devoted to human sacrifice, self flagellation, and torture. The Maya would also have rebounded and being coastal they are getting the horse, the pig, even the chicken for their next round of super civilization and urban development. Partition of the America's, at least in the south might be more like the colonization of India than what happened in Africa, or even the subjugation of China. Providing the Europeans could pull it off at all. Once the native empires see those big boats why wouldn't they try to build their own and perhaps reach Africa where the ivory Coast could be added to their traditionally vast trade networks? These are people who historically traded on a continental scale already so they have the experience to pull it off! What they lacked was the naval technology and the knowledge that other lands exist . . . Contact with Europe ends that ignorance. Now the only thing standing in their way was that 90% die off, total collapse, and immigration from Europe replacing them; but you already put a great end to THAT scenario so . . .
Well said, it's a shame that the culture of most the native American countries died with them, particularly the further south. Yet again an example of Christian/Muslim empires completely wiping out cultures that need 'civilizing'. American religions suffered the same fate as many north European religion such as the Celtic and Germanic faiths, just with more merciless slaughter.
Fascinating what-if. Turtledove level, sir. I hope one day you can piece together a "What-If History of" book. Your quick overview was really nicely done too. I'll probably use it tomorrow in class. 😆
I like "What if there were regular Viking trade routes" Peaceful enough trade *with a civilization that bathed* in the North Americas would have left them much better prepared for what came later. It's also quite reasonable to picture historically, as the reason the Viking settlement was established (walrus hunting) led to it's failure not because of disaster or ill planning, but because the market for walrus tusks fell rapidly as elephant ivory and whale bone came into fashion and the Vikings simply decided to leave. Without a massive influx of poorer Europeans in the form of indentured prisoners there would likely have been a slower spread of disease as well, meaning all of the Americas would have the chance to deal with European plagues caused by overpopulation and poor sanitation one or two at a time instead of all at once.
@@black_lake3382 This was historically uncommon at this point in history for complex reasons involving communal commingling in bathhouses and the Christan church needing people to have body shame.
that takes changing the entire interaction with what vikings are Viking means sea raider their not merchants or traders their warriors they went and faught the native americans they tried kill each other then left
@@TheGrinningViking bathing in Europe during the Middle Ages was fairly common. It’s a myth that they were always filthy. Other myths include the idea that they only drank ale because the water was so polluted and that full plate armor was heavy and significantly limited the wearer’s movement. None of that is true. Speaking of Vikings there is historical evidence that the Anglo saxons believed the Vikings were overly concerned with being clean because they would bathe once a week.
First off, I love this video, it's breakdown, the analysis, the whole scenario. 11/10 amazing video! Now for my 2 cents. I think another possible scenario would be either the Seljuk Turks not migrating south in the 5th/6th century. OR. The Byzantine empire wins its battles and wars against them. (With emphasis on the battle of Manzikurt). Either way the crusades don't happen. Which means the not at all disastrous and and absolute shit-show that was the fourth crusade doesn't happen. Which means the Byzantines aren't weakened. So the Ottoman empire never exists. So European nations still have access to the silk road and all that delicious trade from far east Asia. So now there is no need for the age of exploration. Since Europeans were looking for an alternative to the silk road that they were cut off from.
I made an alternate his as a creative writing excersise on this topic and I concluded that Portugal would still try and navigate around africa for better trade because Egypt would likely not be ruled by the opressive Mamaluks and allied with Persia to battle the Byzantines. Giving the Muslims more control over the Silk Road. Leading Portugal to find America
Thanks for the video! Do note that the flotsam that Columbus’s crew see, had already been observed by Iberian fishermen for decades as they fish further out and *discovered* the Azores and Madeiras. That there were islands “out there” was not disputed by fishermen and sailors. Columbus interviews them for years to gather evidence as he tries to convince his sovereigns, the kings of Portugal, fund his proposal. Eventually he turns to Castile frustrated, is turned down as well and was in his way to England when Isabel calls him back.
very interesting, it is hard to imagine that some small change could butterfly effect North America and the world would be a very different place. Are their any Russian or Asian explorers that maybe tried to sail east but never returned?
Awesome video, thank you. Nineteenth century Europe would have definitely done as you have laid out. My small critique, would be that St Augustine and not Jamestown is the first North American colony founded in 1565. Great video!
I think you did a great job exploring ideas and stopping when recognizing there are infinite scenarios one could imagine. Your audio sounds a bit off. I think a new mic will help with the clarity
No I’m recording in the garage. I don’t have a proper work space until I go full time and can get better equipment. Trust me when I say this is much better than what it was. You can see in previous videos
The SM Stirling novel "Conquistador" is about an Americas that were never colonized. This is because Alexander the Great did not die young, he stabilized his empire, and it survived for centuries so stale that no industrialization or colonization was ever contemplated'
Better yet, what if the Europeans had instead dealt with the American civilizations in the same way they interacted with Japan? Trading, etc. Instead of outright conquest, assimilation, and/or ethnic cleansing.
Wouldn't have happened. The reasons that Japan wasn't colonized like that were 1. It's right next to China a far more wealthy prize. 2. Balance of power had become a major factor in European relations, if one power tried to invade all the others would oppose it and it would have likely started a large war in Europe. And 3, unlike the Chinese, the Japanese realized the world had change and they needed to change with it. If you're talking about before the Japanese closed the country it's a simple answer, It's too far and too heavily populated for any 17th century European power to have a chance at colonization.
Or the Mongolians never invaded westward into Europe. Spreading both knowledge and plagues. Or, no ice age took place creating a land bridge from Asia to America
Still blows my mind that Columbus was trying to find India, sailed toward a continuous land mass and reached an Island that was almost the furthest sea distance he could have travelled (Spain to Newfoundland, Africa to Brazil almost anywhere would have been a shorter trip)
You know what's not getting colonized?!?! My quest for a new world in eu4 because YOU haven't uploaded any more tutorials! 😂 jk jk well sort of... I still can't do anything in that game. Awesome video tho! I love your content and how you "present" what you're talking about. I love learning history so keep it up!
In relation to horses, there is some pretty strong recent academic work that supports horses were present and used in the Americans prior to European arrival. The History Wizard had a good clock app thing about it.
We should try teaching Ai to be diplomatic by having them go through our history and predict how certain Would Likely have progressed... What if the Americas progressed faster in the metallurgical tech tree? What if they could fight back?
The only way I would’ve seen Europe to never head to the new world is simply Constantinople never falls and that they still have access to the Silkroad
I knew you were going to mention a scrabble for America happening. I was going to comment about it if you didn’t because I know it would most likely happen at some point.
I follow you on the clock app and glad I found you here. There are some subject that cannot be condensed into a few seconds. I love this What If and would be interested in hearing more. I'm also curious about the history of Hawaii. I recently heard that it technically isn't part of the U.S.?
*My summary on this alternative timeline* - The Vikings set sail for an expedition and discover North America, unknown at the time. - Later, Colombus sets sail to India and find the the Americas but only has a limited number of men. - Because of the lack of man, they are forced to stay on the first island they set foot on, not discovering other islands. - They discover new things about the new land, natives, their culture and things like sugar. They make trading posts. - The Spanish send a ship back with the news but don't get a response, because the Atlantic is very dangerous. - The portuguese set sail too and discover Brazil, but similar to the Spanish, they only have a trading post there. - Shortly after this, the British, French and Dutch also make trading posts. - Different tribes all over the Americas similar to Europe are native but unknown until the trading posts are made. - There is no massive disease spread along the native Americans so they keep their tribes. - The Inca Empire take sides with the Spanish for rule in South America and they conquer it all. - It takes some time for the Spanish to conquer all of South America but finally discover Portuguese trading posts. - War between Spain & Portugal: Portugal gets send away from the Americas. - Similar to the Spanish, tribes in North America are getting bigger and bigger and getting European allies. - A huge war breaks out with the tribes with French and British on each side. - The Spanish are able to get more control over the continent, getting into Central America and Mexico. - The war ends: some tribes are extinct, others are enslaved. - The British and the French decide to vertically split. The British get the Eastern part, the French the Western. - French trading posts are far more difficult to hold on to and similar to the Lousiana purchase it's later sold. - The Russians still hold on to Alaska, while Hawaii is an independent nation. - The USA will probably still form with rebellions in various British tribes but it will be a smaller country. - The French wouldn't sell the Lousiana purchase to the USA but to the Russians. - Canada will be partly Russian, partly British but the most part wouldn't be inhabited. - Countries would still break away from their European allies but tribes would still have the majority of each country. - All borders would be different. I also guess that parts of what now is Canada & Brazil would be undiscovered yet. - Spanish would still be the main language, but only up to Mexico & Cuba. Other languages are Russian, French & English. - The culture would be very different with the West getting much slower development due to Russia & France's issues. - Portuguese and Dutch trading posts would still maybe have happened in the Caribbean, like Sint-Maarten. - All countries would've been today in an industrial revolution, with European revolution during the 20th century.
So, if I'm understanding this correctly. You're saying the best case scenario for the Americas is that Europe did to them exactly what it did to Africa in our timeline... That's really depressing.
Found you on the clock app, and finally found your channel here. I have a couple of questions. Have you read the book 1492? its strongly supports that the west coast of the americas was known by china, japan etc. Also, the viking society found it 500 years early. Maybe a whatif the vikings colonies were succesful?
I'm not sure about the Berlin conference-style division of the Americas. The railway only really reduced travel times across land and early steamboats along coastlines/rivers. So the delay in getting reinforcements to the Americas would have still been there. Plus the lack of resources to fuel the industrial revolution in Europe, combined with the consolidation of power by native american tribes and "catching up" in terms of trading for horses/livestock and firearms (perhaps they would have time to reverse engineer them, or build up enough stockpiles from trade to successfully resist European encroachment). Also, I think it would change the power dynamic in Europe far too much, without the manpower and resources from trade, more colony-dependent nations like the UK and Spain would not have been able to compete as they did with other European powers, like France, Prussia or maybe Russia, making it more likely that one of them would be able to gain dominance over much of Europe. But "what if's" are always interesting to think and obviously there's always the possibility that any such changes could result in a wildly different outcome. Maybe even like the Sunset Invasion DLC for Europa Universalis IV.
I'd love a video / series on the relationship between Portugal and Brazil -- ie how they basically became a union with Brazil, at one point, considered the senior :)
Interesting hypotheses! If the Native Americans had immunity to European diseases, do you think it possible that a Native American power/leader might have become interested in ship building and other Western technologies (as Peter the Great of Russia had done) and , after building up a trading exchange maybe even attempted to conquer/colonize more vulnerable European or Asian areas? Just asking!
At 21:10 the map shows russia having territory in Somalia but it was split between UK and Italy. With Italy along the Eastern Coast to the Indian ocean and UK in the Gulf of Aden portion.
What if, during the period of trade, negotiation and accommodation, enterprising Europeans sold technology to the Americans, teaching them how to make firearms, armor, weapons and industry? What if the highly populous American continents were industrializing at the same pace as Europe?
Another possible scenario: What if the spread of disease had gone the other way? Instead of the Europeans bringing plagues to the Americas, they brought a plague back to their own continent. This would have greatly slowed European expansion, reducing it to mere trade. Eventually, the Aztecs or the Incas might have advanced to industrialization, or even democratic forms of government. Though the European countries had a technological head start, both European and American civilizations were about equal morally/culturally (remember the Spanish Inquisition?).
I thought this was really interesting. This might be a bit out there, but I wonder what would be the impact of trade, and thus the exchange of technology and ideas, on American civilizations, without those civilizations perishing like they did in real life. Makes you wonder if empires like the Aztecs would have become a colonial power in their own right, even if it was just expanding in Central America or into what's today Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, California etc.
In history class in high school i learned that, at the time, azteca power at the time had been on the decline and within the next hundred years or so they might have fallen either way to one of the emerging power houses in the region (i remember the textbook naming the possible nations that would have over taken them but i dont remember the names). Depending on who got access to european goods and weapons first the Aztec could have fallen like in history, but with a neighboring kingdom taking its place, or they could have reestablished their power and like you said, potentially begun conquering more kingdoms.
This also makes me wonder how different things would have been if the Norse had permanently settled the New World instead of calling it quits on Canada after a few years.
When I was 12 n 13 I spent the summers on my cousins horse farm n WV u had to go thru cricks thru fields etc on no roads for 5 miles there were hermits there my god how Ioved it n wish I'd stayed I was so healthy
So ironically you'd need a more successful Viking colonization for enough contact between the vikings and natives to happen for the America's last longer.
In conclusion, if America was never colonized, it would end up getting colonized in the 1800s along with Africa. Not sure what I was expecting but hey at least the native cultures and languages would have survived.
So I found you channel today and so far I have liked what I have watched. My one problem with this video is the use of the word "discover" and its derivatives. How do you discover a land that is already inhabited... that is ny biggest issue with any discussion about this topic.
In a black plague type scenario I would wonder if they would be more technologically advanced by the time europe comes around. A higher valuing for record keeping and self preservation for hundred of years might have made a more combative culture that's more prepared to deal with conflict by force.
I really enjoy listening to your take on these “what if” scenarios, I hope you might have the time and interest in doing more for major events all throughout history.
That is the plan
The portuguese king knew of Brazil before the treaty hence why the line covers it. Funny how 5 days after the treaty is signed the portuguese discovery a massive land mass on their side of the treaty lines lol
Good it is now up properly, sorry about that the initial upload failed
Does the sound suck or is it me?
@@bryanwebb9275 might be just you, mine is fine
@@bryanwebb9275 weird, mine sounds great
@@bryanwebb9275 it’s highly improved from what it is. I’m recording in my garage so there may be a slight echo
Fascinating take. I never thought of a reverse triangle slave trade developing with an Aztec empire before, but I could totally see that happening in an alternate universe!
Yup just look at what happened to the Congo once demand for slaves skyrocketed
This was a great presentation. I'd like to see the same type done for Africa.
Thank you there’s a lot more that I want to cover
I think the big one here would be if the Arab invasion never happened and much of Africa was still made up of competing kingdoms
@@apologu Well the “Arab invasion” isn’t really real
The spread of Islam through conquest did cause an influx of Arabs however they hardly settled outside of Egypt *(and only added 5-7% to the population)*
The North of Africa is genetically Berber and only shares a religion/script with Arabs (Speaking Vastly different dialects of Arabic and in many nations different languages that are only written in Arabic)
That isn’t synonymous with European Colonization
@@apologu also the “Arab Invasion” (Aka the spread of Islam) didn’t spread to far past the Sahelian Region so Africa was still filled with numerous competing kingdoms/Empires/Confederations
Way late to the party, but I also wonder what effect not colonizing the Americas would have had on Africa! Seems like the Empires would have more resources to dedicate there.
(I’m only 3/4s through so if he answers that, forgive me, but it just sprang to mind)
I've also thought about this a lot and I have to say that you nailed it. Well done!
Thank you very much. I hope to get better with it with time
I think the most interesting discussion regarding this is discussing the reasons why they were overran by the european powers. They were obviously less centralized than european states, with the more advanced civilizations with great cities mostly taking the form of city-state-like structures, making their military and administrative powers smaller. I think a big reason why the societies in the americas was small in scope, was that they didn't have horses or cows. No cows means a lot less food, as there is no milk, they can't help with farming crops, and you also can't eat them. No horses means a lot less effective mobility around the continents, meaning less trade, slower armies, worse supply lines for those armies, with everything needing humans instead of animals. Having common animals between America and Europe would hopefully also give immunity to diseases
The answer was disease. The Inca Emperor died because of disease and then the Empire went into civil war. But European diseases killed between 50%-70% of the population.
Specifically the timing of the disease - Europe had been ravaged by the plague 150 years earlier. The native Americans were more advanced than the Europeans in agriculture and there is growing evidence that the buffalo was their version of the aurochs (cow/bull) and might actually have been domesticated to some degree.
They had Llamas in the Incan empire and the whole continent of S. and N. America the natives had dogs and the Inuits used dogs to help them carry things
@@sleekoduck buffalo are pretty much undomesticable though, you put them in any fence and they'll either jump it or batter it down - one of those animals where there's huge potential but no practical route to get there
@@hallooos7585 llamas are far less cooperative than the Old World domesticated animals, plus there's only them so you can only have limited production of animal goods. Lacking specialists for wool, meat, eggs, milk and labour as (mostly) separate responsibilities might have hampered the Inca more if they weren't mountain dwellers, living in that environment really limits the utility of animals other than the llama. It was their best and only choice but it did come with a low production cap
The part I really would like to look at more deeply is the nature of American civilization before the Europeans. Without livestock slavery, human sacrifice, and even cannibalism was more prominent in many places. But more than that the Americas also were highly technological. They produced the worlds first mega-cities. They also produced the world's biggest collapses. They developed truly huge networks of trade and new crops like corn . . . and then they didn't.
Many native cultures had a mythology that talked of circular time and it was based on historical fact. The Pre-classical Maya had truly huge cities that were lost to the jungle partially due to how much land they paved over and its impact on rain patterns. The Classical Maya may have collapsed due to a drought caused by cutting down too many trees. . . and when the Spanish arrived some cities still survived to start the pattern again.
We see the same thing with the "Finished People" in the southwest, with the Cahokia and the Mississippian mound builders. The Inca's look to break the trend and they were moving people around to develop a stable ethnic state much like China had long before; with the same sort of brutal "first empire' methods. The big thing the American civilizations lacked was the mellowing impact of the Persian empire and later Christianity/Islam.
They weren't backward when you exclude their access to livestock and how that made them susceptible to disease. The cotton age was every bit as important as the iron age in Europe, and native metal workers were much better at alloying gold with other metals even if they lacked knowledge of iron. But given your scenario they could LEARN iron working and trade for livestock from Europe, just as Europeans could trade for potatoes, Cotton, alloyed gold/silver goods, chocolate . . . and yes slaves for their sugar plantations.
The Meso/south American trade might be just as lucrative as that with China but the people they are trading with aren't NICE. Just because a culture got the short end of the stick in our history doesn't mean they are people you wouldn't WISH a gigantic plague on. The Mexica were definitely on their way out, but the Tlaxcala weren't any better and they allied with Europe to take over in OUR timeline. It's easy to imagine them forming a truly oppressive empire that was just as completely devoted to human sacrifice, self flagellation, and torture. The Maya would also have rebounded and being coastal they are getting the horse, the pig, even the chicken for their next round of super civilization and urban development.
Partition of the America's, at least in the south might be more like the colonization of India than what happened in Africa, or even the subjugation of China. Providing the Europeans could pull it off at all. Once the native empires see those big boats why wouldn't they try to build their own and perhaps reach Africa where the ivory Coast could be added to their traditionally vast trade networks? These are people who historically traded on a continental scale already so they have the experience to pull it off! What they lacked was the naval technology and the knowledge that other lands exist . . . Contact with Europe ends that ignorance.
Now the only thing standing in their way was that 90% die off, total collapse, and immigration from Europe replacing them; but you already put a great end to THAT scenario so . . .
Well said, it's a shame that the culture of most the native American countries died with them, particularly the further south. Yet again an example of Christian/Muslim empires completely wiping out cultures that need 'civilizing'. American religions suffered the same fate as many north European religion such as the Celtic and Germanic faiths, just with more merciless slaughter.
Your narration is amazing man, you really have the voice for this.
Thank you, I hope that the quality over all can continue to improve
This is really interesting stuff. Love your ability to hit so many possibilities and your explanations are always excellent. Thank you sir
Thank you very much, usually these types of videos are shorter but there are far too many spin off points
You deserve serious props for this video. It's hard to find decent alternate history on this site.
Fascinating what-if. Turtledove level, sir. I hope one day you can piece together a "What-If History of" book.
Your quick overview was really nicely done too. I'll probably use it tomorrow in class. 😆
For a class? Damn. Thank you
I like "What if there were regular Viking trade routes"
Peaceful enough trade *with a civilization that bathed* in the North Americas would have left them much better prepared for what came later.
It's also quite reasonable to picture historically, as the reason the Viking settlement was established (walrus hunting) led to it's failure not because of disaster or ill planning, but because the market for walrus tusks fell rapidly as elephant ivory and whale bone came into fashion and the Vikings simply decided to leave.
Without a massive influx of poorer Europeans in the form of indentured prisoners there would likely have been a slower spread of disease as well, meaning all of the Americas would have the chance to deal with European plagues caused by overpopulation and poor sanitation one or two at a time instead of all at once.
The Europeans also bathed
@@black_lake3382 This was historically uncommon at this point in history for complex reasons involving communal commingling in bathhouses and the Christan church needing people to have body shame.
that takes changing the entire interaction with what vikings are
Viking means sea raider their not merchants or traders their warriors they went and faught the native americans they tried kill each other then left
@@TheGrinningViking bathing in Europe during the Middle Ages was fairly common. It’s a myth that they were always filthy. Other myths include the idea that they only drank ale because the water was so polluted and that full plate armor was heavy and significantly limited the wearer’s movement. None of that is true.
Speaking of Vikings there is historical evidence that the Anglo saxons believed the Vikings were overly concerned with being clean because they would bathe once a week.
Vikings were raiders I believe you mean Scandinavian/norse
First off, I love this video, it's breakdown, the analysis, the whole scenario.
11/10 amazing video!
Now for my 2 cents.
I think another possible scenario would be either the Seljuk Turks not migrating south in the 5th/6th century. OR. The Byzantine empire wins its battles and wars against them. (With emphasis on the battle of Manzikurt). Either way the crusades don't happen. Which means the not at all disastrous and and absolute shit-show that was the fourth crusade doesn't happen. Which means the Byzantines aren't weakened. So the Ottoman empire never exists. So European nations still have access to the silk road and all that delicious trade from far east Asia.
So now there is no need for the age of exploration. Since Europeans were looking for an alternative to the silk road that they were cut off from.
I made an alternate his as a creative writing excersise on this topic and I concluded that Portugal would still try and navigate around africa for better trade because Egypt would likely not be ruled by the opressive Mamaluks and allied with Persia to battle the Byzantines. Giving the Muslims more control over the Silk Road. Leading Portugal to find America
I was thinking the same thing.
I saw your TikTok covering this, and jumped immediately to TH-cam to find this video. Just subscribed, can’t wait for more content!
Thanks for the video! Do note that the flotsam that Columbus’s crew see, had already been observed by Iberian fishermen for decades as they fish further out and *discovered* the Azores and Madeiras. That there were islands “out there” was not disputed by fishermen and sailors. Columbus interviews them for years to gather evidence as he tries to convince his sovereigns, the kings of Portugal, fund his proposal. Eventually he turns to Castile frustrated, is turned down as well and was in his way to England when Isabel calls him back.
Another thing to remember: Columbus had trouble getting funding for his voyage because he sucked at math. He grossly underestimated Earth's size.
Love your shorts, Spotify and voice. I'd love more longer TH-cam content. But I understand prioritizing Spotify for long content.
very interesting, it is hard to imagine that some small change could butterfly effect North America and the world would be a very different place. Are their any Russian or Asian explorers that maybe tried to sail east but never returned?
theres a theory that one of those chinese emperors the one that built that huge boat, they sailed to america.
Awesome video, thank you. Nineteenth century Europe would have definitely done as you have laid out. My small critique, would be that St Augustine and not Jamestown is the first North American colony founded in 1565. Great video!
I think you did a great job exploring ideas and stopping when recognizing there are infinite scenarios one could imagine. Your audio sounds a bit off. I think a new mic will help with the clarity
No I’m recording in the garage. I don’t have a proper work space until I go full time and can get better equipment. Trust me when I say this is much better than what it was. You can see in previous videos
I love your video podcasts, very informative!!!
By the way, nice quick shirt change at 18:57 😊
The SM Stirling novel "Conquistador" is about an Americas that were never colonized. This is because Alexander the Great did not die young, he stabilized his empire, and it survived for centuries so stale that no industrialization or colonization was ever contemplated'
Better yet, what if the Europeans had instead dealt with the American civilizations in the same way they interacted with Japan? Trading, etc. Instead of outright conquest, assimilation, and/or ethnic cleansing.
Wouldn't have happened. The reasons that Japan wasn't colonized like that were 1. It's right next to China a far more wealthy prize. 2. Balance of power had become a major factor in European relations, if one power tried to invade all the others would oppose it and it would have likely started a large war in Europe. And 3, unlike the Chinese, the Japanese realized the world had change and they needed to change with it.
If you're talking about before the Japanese closed the country it's a simple answer, It's too far and too heavily populated for any 17th century European power to have a chance at colonization.
I love this topic. Like the what if’s. Keep doing them on all diff things
"What If we colonized the sun"
What if the Ottomans never cut Europe off from the East? No incentive, no exploration, no improvement in sailing ships, and all that follows.
Or the Mongolians never invaded westward into Europe. Spreading both knowledge and plagues. Or, no ice age took place creating a land bridge from Asia to America
I really like how his "What if" scenarios have a "Why" at the beginning.
love it mate, cant wait for more
I think the Natives would modernize the US into different smaller countries like Europe. It would be like how Japan modernized without being invaded.
your is the first "what it" that i don't feel the conductor biased in some sort of way
Short answer: it just happens later
Exactly.
You should do a “what if china stayed democratic” that would be fun
This could be spicy
I don't think it ever was democratic
@@quinnarrenzola5284 China was a republic like Taiwan is today.
saw u on tiktok and right when u brought up ur yt i came here !!
I hope this video will find more people because it is amazing
Thank you so much for that
In your recap of what actually happened you basically went over my entire first semester of what I teach to 5th graders. This is awesome!
Still blows my mind that Columbus was trying to find India, sailed toward a continuous land mass and reached an Island that was almost the furthest sea distance he could have travelled (Spain to Newfoundland, Africa to Brazil almost anywhere would have been a shorter trip)
Nice assessment. Very intriguing.
What if the Vikings settled in Canada long enough to introduce disease and introduce immunity in the 9th century?
Definitely was worth coming to watch this
Thank you for everything you do!
22:00 That sounds like an awesome Alt History HOI4 map!
I love thinking about alternate history like this!
I found you on TikTok and followed u here. Good stuff.
Thank you, and thank you for watching me here as I really want to build it
The video was amazing and so interesting.
Would be interested to see this done on Africa
love your videos
You know what's not getting colonized?!?! My quest for a new world in eu4 because YOU haven't uploaded any more tutorials! 😂 jk jk well sort of... I still can't do anything in that game.
Awesome video tho! I love your content and how you "present" what you're talking about. I love learning history so keep it up!
In relation to horses, there is some pretty strong recent academic work that supports horses were present and used in the Americans prior to European arrival. The History Wizard had a good clock app thing about it.
I gave up on TikTok, but I'm glad I found you
Thank you
You're the shit man! I really liked this. Glad I saved the tiktok to remind me to watch the video
Thanks tik tok for bringing me here. Love your content dude!
We should try teaching Ai to be diplomatic by having them go through our history and predict how certain Would Likely have progressed... What if the Americas progressed faster in the metallurgical tech tree? What if they could fight back?
I would love to see one but where no one ever makes it to America. Ships go down and the trip is deemed too dangerous
Only think I can think of when listening to all the things that could go wrong is "Mo-jave? Mo-problems."
The only way I would’ve seen Europe to never head to the new world is simply Constantinople never falls and that they still have access to the Silkroad
Im 13 minutes in and am gonna quit. I didn't think I was going to get an entire history lesson before the premise of the video was actually gotten to.
Love your content man keep it up
I like to see you do a video on what if Rome never conquered Gual.
18:55 lol that shirt change tho. Fastest changer in the west
Found you on TikTok like your stuff!
This def gonna be my new “eat channel”
I knew you were going to mention a scrabble for America happening. I was going to comment about it if you didn’t because I know it would most likely happen at some point.
Awesome piece of work!
I follow you on the clock app and glad I found you here. There are some subject that cannot be condensed into a few seconds. I love this What If and would be interested in hearing more. I'm also curious about the history of Hawaii. I recently heard that it technically isn't part of the U.S.?
But what if the spice trade was never blocked, so people didn't have an incentive to look for new routes?
*My summary on this alternative timeline*
- The Vikings set sail for an expedition and discover North America, unknown at the time.
- Later, Colombus sets sail to India and find the the Americas but only has a limited number of men.
- Because of the lack of man, they are forced to stay on the first island they set foot on, not discovering other islands.
- They discover new things about the new land, natives, their culture and things like sugar. They make trading posts.
- The Spanish send a ship back with the news but don't get a response, because the Atlantic is very dangerous.
- The portuguese set sail too and discover Brazil, but similar to the Spanish, they only have a trading post there.
- Shortly after this, the British, French and Dutch also make trading posts.
- Different tribes all over the Americas similar to Europe are native but unknown until the trading posts are made.
- There is no massive disease spread along the native Americans so they keep their tribes.
- The Inca Empire take sides with the Spanish for rule in South America and they conquer it all.
- It takes some time for the Spanish to conquer all of South America but finally discover Portuguese trading posts.
- War between Spain & Portugal: Portugal gets send away from the Americas.
- Similar to the Spanish, tribes in North America are getting bigger and bigger and getting European allies.
- A huge war breaks out with the tribes with French and British on each side.
- The Spanish are able to get more control over the continent, getting into Central America and Mexico.
- The war ends: some tribes are extinct, others are enslaved.
- The British and the French decide to vertically split. The British get the Eastern part, the French the Western.
- French trading posts are far more difficult to hold on to and similar to the Lousiana purchase it's later sold.
- The Russians still hold on to Alaska, while Hawaii is an independent nation.
- The USA will probably still form with rebellions in various British tribes but it will be a smaller country.
- The French wouldn't sell the Lousiana purchase to the USA but to the Russians.
- Canada will be partly Russian, partly British but the most part wouldn't be inhabited.
- Countries would still break away from their European allies but tribes would still have the majority of each country.
- All borders would be different. I also guess that parts of what now is Canada & Brazil would be undiscovered yet.
- Spanish would still be the main language, but only up to Mexico & Cuba. Other languages are Russian, French & English.
- The culture would be very different with the West getting much slower development due to Russia & France's issues.
- Portuguese and Dutch trading posts would still maybe have happened in the Caribbean, like Sint-Maarten.
- All countries would've been today in an industrial revolution, with European revolution during the 20th century.
What if the Ottoman Empire never took Constantinople and there was no need to find a new path?
So, if I'm understanding this correctly. You're saying the best case scenario for the Americas is that Europe did to them exactly what it did to Africa in our timeline... That's really depressing.
also to prove that the world was round.
Found you on the clock app, and finally found your channel here. I have a couple of questions. Have you read the book 1492? its strongly supports that the west coast of the americas was known by china, japan etc. Also, the viking society found it 500 years early. Maybe a whatif the vikings colonies were succesful?
I'm not sure about the Berlin conference-style division of the Americas. The railway only really reduced travel times across land and early steamboats along coastlines/rivers. So the delay in getting reinforcements to the Americas would have still been there. Plus the lack of resources to fuel the industrial revolution in Europe, combined with the consolidation of power by native american tribes and "catching up" in terms of trading for horses/livestock and firearms (perhaps they would have time to reverse engineer them, or build up enough stockpiles from trade to successfully resist European encroachment). Also, I think it would change the power dynamic in Europe far too much, without the manpower and resources from trade, more colony-dependent nations like the UK and Spain would not have been able to compete as they did with other European powers, like France, Prussia or maybe Russia, making it more likely that one of them would be able to gain dominance over much of Europe.
But "what if's" are always interesting to think and obviously there's always the possibility that any such changes could result in a wildly different outcome. Maybe even like the Sunset Invasion DLC for Europa Universalis IV.
Ive been wondering this for ages
I'd love a video / series on the relationship between Portugal and Brazil -- ie how they basically became a union with Brazil, at one point, considered the senior :)
Don't forget, someone would sell the secret of making and working iron and steel and making gunpowder to achieve a trade advantage.
Interesting hypotheses! If the Native Americans had immunity to European diseases, do you think it possible that a Native American power/leader might have become interested in ship building and other Western technologies (as Peter the Great of Russia had done) and , after building up a trading exchange maybe even attempted to conquer/colonize more vulnerable European or Asian areas? Just asking!
I was wondering, do you think that in this scenario colonisation of the Americas could also be similar to the colonisation of India?
At 21:10 the map shows russia having territory in Somalia but it was split between UK and Italy. With Italy along the Eastern Coast to the Indian ocean and UK in the Gulf of Aden portion.
Great video although the music gets a bit loud on some parts. Maybe it wouldn't be as distracting if it was 15-20% quieter.
I’ll play around with it as audio has been a big thing I’m working on
What if the Ottoman Empire had never arisen and the silk roads had remained open?
Hey you are the tiktok historian nice video
Yupppp
What if, during the period of trade, negotiation and accommodation, enterprising Europeans sold technology to the Americans, teaching them how to make firearms, armor, weapons and industry? What if the highly populous American continents were industrializing at the same pace as Europe?
He’s good looking!.!.
Another possible scenario: What if the spread of disease had gone the other way? Instead of the Europeans bringing plagues to the Americas, they brought a plague back to their own continent. This would have greatly slowed European expansion, reducing it to mere trade. Eventually, the Aztecs or the Incas might have advanced to industrialization, or even democratic forms of government. Though the European countries had a technological head start, both European and American civilizations were about equal morally/culturally (remember the Spanish Inquisition?).
I thought this was really interesting. This might be a bit out there, but I wonder what would be the impact of trade, and thus the exchange of technology and ideas, on American civilizations, without those civilizations perishing like they did in real life. Makes you wonder if empires like the Aztecs would have become a colonial power in their own right, even if it was just expanding in Central America or into what's today Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, California etc.
In history class in high school i learned that, at the time, azteca power at the time had been on the decline and within the next hundred years or so they might have fallen either way to one of the emerging power houses in the region (i remember the textbook naming the possible nations that would have over taken them but i dont remember the names). Depending on who got access to european goods and weapons first the Aztec could have fallen like in history, but with a neighboring kingdom taking its place, or they could have reestablished their power and like you said, potentially begun conquering more kingdoms.
This also makes me wonder how different things would have been if the Norse had permanently settled the New World instead of calling it quits on Canada after a few years.
i'll just put a smallpox vial on the time travel list
When I was 12 n 13 I spent the summers on my cousins horse farm n WV u had to go thru cricks thru fields etc on no roads for 5 miles there were hermits there my god how Ioved it n wish I'd stayed I was so healthy
21:09
Dear god that map
It is all a roll of the dice
You know what would be cool, a "what if" Episode of mongol horde ruled over europe
Great video
So ironically you'd need a more successful Viking colonization for enough contact between the vikings and natives to happen for the America's last longer.
ayyy it works now!
In conclusion, if America was never colonized, it would end up getting colonized in the 1800s along with Africa. Not sure what I was expecting but hey at least the native cultures and languages would have survived.
Italians wouldn't have their tomato sauce and Brazil wouldn't have carnival.
So I found you channel today and so far I have liked what I have watched. My one problem with this video is the use of the word "discover" and its derivatives. How do you discover a land that is already inhabited... that is ny biggest issue with any discussion about this topic.
Well various tribes, clans, clubs, groups, cliques, pods, herds, packs, prides, and collections would be more diverse and open yups
A concept I want to explore, what if the Natives (probably would have been South America) discovers Europe in the medival age.
In a black plague type scenario I would wonder if they would be more technologically advanced by the time europe comes around. A higher valuing for record keeping and self preservation for hundred of years might have made a more combative culture that's more prepared to deal with conflict by force.
Interesting concept population of Europe could be massive
Could you go into a scenario where Big Bird could fit in a spacesuit?
Or if Oscar the grouch's trash can was a time machine.