What does fatigue actually do? Probably not what you think! Total War: Shogun 2.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.พ. 2025
- Hello everyone, in this video we'll be taking a look at what fatigue actually does to your units in Shogun 2.
This is a different kind of video compared to the ones I usually make. I came across the fatigue problem when making the Unit Stats video, and I couldn't find any reliable information on the internet. So I decided to look into it myself. Sadly I do not have a lot of time to run the tests, so they are quite inaccurate. However, I do think it at least shows that fatigue doesn't work as intended.
Link to the discord: / discord
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Here is why the fatigue effects work for cavalry and not for infantry: in the table fatigue_effects_tables, you can see a column unit_category. If you take a look into units_tables, you will find the column category, which put the unit into a specific category obviously. All cavalry have the category cavalry, but if you look at infantry, no one has a category just 'infantry'. It's either infantry_melee or infantry_ranged, and neither of those are listed in the fatigue_effects_tables. So if you want to fix that, make a mod and add those two infantry categories to the fatigue_effects_tables and it should work properly! I didn't test this yet, but I'm almost 100% sure it will work. I have no idea how devs could miss this, it completely brakes the game actually.
Again, thank your for this information!
@@TheVikingGeneral It's amazing that no one in 10 freaking years noticed this! It only took me a quick look in the tables, so probably someone did notice a long time ago, but it was forgotten. In any case, if you could make a mod, add those categories and make a video, it would be interesting to see the results then :)
Lmao, I think nearly every mod fixes this. I'm looking @ Darthmod's unit tables and it works. I'm looking at Total FoTS's unit tables and they work. So, apparently, mods fix it.
change that, can confirm it work
Just CA being CA. Too incompetent and lazy to do a 5 minute fix.
I'd love to have more people take a look at this as well. So if you guys can, please share this video with as much people as possible, so we can start on figuring out what's exactly going on!
Keep trucking brother. The shogun 2 community is still alive, the views will come. I would try commenting under Maximus’ channel now that’s it’s dead, and getting back some of his fans
@@rathernotsay8185 I'm sorry to say I don't know Maximus, but I will check him out. Although I don't want to just shamelessly self-promote on other channels to be honest. I mean, I have done it now on the reddit a few times and I feel dirty every time I do it :S.
I made a separate comment, but will post it here as well:
Here is why the fatigue effects work for cavalry and not for infantry: in the table fatigue_effects_tables, you can see a column unit_category. If you take a look into units_tables, you will find the column category, which put the unit into a specific category obviously. All cavalry have the category cavalry, but if you look at infantry, no one has a category just 'infantry'. It's either infantry_melee or infantry_ranged, and neither of those are listed in the fatigue_effects_tables. So if you want to fix that, make a mod and add those two infantry categories to the fatigue_effects_tables and it should work properly! I didn't test this yet, but I'm almost 100% sure it will work. I have no idea how devs could miss this, it completely brakes the game actually.
@@JB-zw3pl Awesome! I can't find your comment under the video, did you remove it? I wanted to pin it so everyone can see what's up.
@@TheVikingGeneral That's weird, I posted it for sure. Did youtube delete it lol? I will post it again now, see if it stays haha.
It could be that the only decrease in performance the units get is the morale penalty, which in turn results in slightly lower combat performance.
As far as I know, morale only affects when a unit breaks. But you might be correct that morale penalties somehow also affect kill death ratios. That's what I'm so confused about.
I always march my foot troops as if their bellies are full of lead and they've had no rice for a week. I try to keep them as fresh as possible. I just assumed their performance goes down in every aspect when suffering from the fatigue.
From what I remember, in Shogun 2 only morale affects the combat stats and everything else effects the morale. So being exhausted, losing a fight or being charged in the back does not decrease stats, just inflicts morale penalty which in turn lowers the combat effectiveness. Same goes for morale bonuses like charging enemy, being on hill or using inspire ability.
That might be true, but why is there a specific table for fatigue modifiers? Just legacy data? I might go have a look at the files again, see if I can find modifiers for fighting on hills and such. Thanks for the tip!
And for sure, having lower morale will break your unit more easily, so it's less effective. That's why I only looked at the kill/death ratio.
Yeh I think this is right. Units get combat debuff when wavering. Reducing morale makes them waver earlier.
@@TempestInMe Interesting, do you know where I can verify that statement? The debuff when wavering part.
@@TheVikingGeneral I remember seeing it somewhere on the net I'll have a look.
@@TheVikingGeneral I think you're right. Legacy data. They probably decided to simplify everything
Good to see you upload your findings!
Thank you!
These videos are so informative. I feel pretty honoured to be part of your initial viewers before this channel inevitably blows up. Keep making this great content, dude!
Haha, we'll have to see about that. But I'm honoured to have you with us as well ;)
Awesome find.
I tried out a run trial between fresh and exhausted katana cavalry. The fresh cavalry covered more ground / unit time than the exhausted. I did not measure to see if it matched the expected 30% decrease for the exhausted unit, but would state that it looked of that order.
I then modified the Fatigue_effects table in line with J B's recommendation. I changed the infantry rows to infantry_melee and added identical rows for infantry_ranged.
I did the run trial between fresh and exhausted katana samurai. The fresh unit covered twice the distance of the exhausted unit.
The exhausted unit was charged (though little more than walking pace) against a fresh katana samurai (I am not certain the fresh unit counter-charged, perhaps it saw no need as the exhausted unit was approaching so slowly !!).
The exhausted unit shattered after sustaining 51 casualties from 80 strength. The fresh unit took 36 casualties from 80 strength and was winded by the end of the fight. Neither unit lost its commander.
Two fresh katana units fighting will not usually reach Tired status before one shatters. Unless a leader is lost, a unit shatters when it is reduced to ~16 men from 80 (80% casualties).
The fatigue table suggests the exhausted unit will suffer a 50% penalty in melee, whether this is applicable to attack, defence or both I have no idea. If it applies to the difference between casualties inflicted vs casualties incurred, then in the above katana samurai exercise, having lost 51, I would expect the fresh unit to lose ~25 men, rather than 36 (the difference seems too large for random number effect). However, if the exhausted unit got off a charge, (even at 50% penalty), that might account for the discrepancy. This needs further investigation.
But the key is, the difference in the combat between fresh and exhausted units when the fatigue effects table is modified in line with J B's post, is clearly significant.
I have approximately 2,500 hours in S2 and really enjoy the game. However, I have had misgivings about the battles (which I won't go into here) which I think this discovery may well correct.
Great job guys.
Thank you for the extra information! Sadly, I cannot pin multiple comments to stay on top. :(
@@TheVikingGeneral Don't worry about that. I am experimenting further and will trial the modified values in a campaign later today.
I have not finished the 2 minutes yet but had to comment. It's great your showing the kv rules table etc for the effects on morale. If you want to extend more shogun 2 vids, you could talk about map and resources or the startpos.esf. I only play as Tokugawa, as I'm a history buff and always try to keep Oda clan alive. Brilliant videos. I wish we had a Shogun 3!
The fact that they're at least remastering old games give me at least a bit of hope that they might revive the older games. ^^
I only recently got around to digging through the games files, so I'm not sure how far I want to take it ;)
@@TheVikingGeneral hello! what is the map in your videos? and how can i see this tables too? thanks
@@MiN_NothingOutOfTheOrdinary The map is from the steam workshop, called small, flat grassy map.
To see the tables, you need to download the packfilemanager for total war games. I used this version www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?730823
but I'm not sure if there are any newer versions. (there probably are)
utterly mindblown. Now I know why my fresh units never catchup...
Thanks for making these videos. I'm new to Shogun 2 and these videos really help me in making battles easier. Also, I'd like to see you cover these topics as well:
-How to set up deployables (Bamboo wall, Screens and Naval Mines) properly
-How to use Matchlock units
-How to use Artillery units
Glad to help! I think matchlocks is one of the most requested videos, and I'm working on those. But I still have to pretty much finish a campaign before I'm able to properly make the video. There are some nuances you just can't test with custom battles alone.
Deployables will go on the to-do list!
In the vanilla base game, I wouldn't bother with artillery. They're not worth it, since they are super inaccurate, but if you find them fun go ahead. ;)
1. deployable can only be deployed in defensive battle by certain units, and only in the start (deploy) phase. To deploy them, click the ability and then drag the unit along the line where you want to set these screens up. If it appears to be too short, there may be hidden terrains (small bump or depression) that break the screens line - move your unit slightly until you get a reasonable length.
Screens could protect your unit from arrow: you could set them up with bow units, start battle, move these bow away, and hide naginata monk or no daichi behind to avoid arrows.
Bamboo could stop enemy melee unit while also allow your gun to shot through. This mostly applied to gun units, but bomb-thrower (which has pitiful range) could also take advantage of that to shot far longer (and safer) than normal. Bamboo is best deployed in the V-shape formation, so your gun always have targets.
Both can be used to block movement, break enemy formation or funnel them to your "kill zone".. It could also be used as a front line - very useful when you're outnumbered in terms of melee unit.
Never invest that far into naval tech, so I have no experience with mine.
2. Matchlock is very underpowered, so you should only recruit them for fluff (fun and theme) rather than a serious fighting component. 2 per army (or less) is enough. The only exception is garrison, in which 2-6 (depend on enemy's size, generally 2 for each direction of attack) matchlock ashigaru (can be recruited everywhere) is preferable. Focus fire on heroes or nagi/katana samurai. Matchlock is strictly a "support" unit, in a sense that you will always need someone else to distract the enemy long enough for you to shot (FOTS gun line is a different story).
Matchlock is best in castle defense, when you put them in the 2nd, inner wall (if you have any), while you melee (yari ashigaru in spear wall) right below in the 1st courtyard to hold as long as possible. In defensive field battle, always use bamboo wall - these will greatly improve your matchlock, since your gun can shot continuously through the entire battle. In offensive field battle, either deploy them in the flank, to wheel and shot at enemy's back, or deploy a check-board formation (with small gaps in your front line) so your gun could shot through. Either way, they are much less useful in offensive (and downright useless in castle assault)
Spread your gun as thin as possible to maximize the number of gun. Never use fire by rank, since it was bugged and you will shot slower than a spaghetti line.
In general, bow will greatly outperform gun in offensive, on par with gun (only in bamboo wall) in defensive field, and slightly worse in defensive siege - but then again, you are supposed to hold a castle with 1/3 of the enemy force, so...
3. don't use artillery units. They require too much investment in terms of tech, they are big disappointment in battles, and more importantly - they are extremely slow on the campaign map. Put 1 in your army and they will lose at least 50% movement speed. That's a big reason why they belong to the trash tier. If you absolutely want to use them, at least put them in a ship and carry them around like a babysitter, then disembark them when meet a big castle. Only to laugh at how underwhelming they are.
The only "artillery" unit you should ever recruit is fire rocket. They are decent in combat (especially against cavalry), and they are not that slow. The rest are simply deadweight to your army.
@@oldrabbit8290 Anyone who claims matchlocks are under powered doesn't know about the Otomo. Tercos and Donderbus are two of the absolute strongest units in the game, and honestly not that hard to get in campaign. Non-Otomo gun units are not worth it (Heavy Gunners are cool, but the time investment to get them is such a drag), but Otomo guns will carry your campaign. A line of Tercos is a very powerful force.
@@demomanchaos
- join a topic about matchlock unit in general
- dispute the argument that "matchlocks are underpowered"
- make his case by using 2 clan-specific units, one of them is basically katana samurai with a gun (and naginata samurai armor), and with tier 2 building requirement; and the other unit is Heavy Gun with superior mobility..
- casually mention that "Non-Otomo gun units (ie, the one we are talking about) are not worth it"
- ???
- profit
In the same vein, i will argue that yari samurai is better than both katana and naginata, since Date bulletproof samurai exist..
@@oldrabbit8290 Tercos are in fact a matchlock unit are they not? Donderbus Cav do in fact use a matchlock as well yes? I'm also curious what version of English you were taught where "not worth it because of the time investment" translates to "underpowered" because that is not the version of English everyone else uses.
The problem with matchlocks in S2 is how late they appear in the campaign for those who aren't the Otomo. By the time you can get them you should be basically done with the campaign and be sporting at least 3 doomstacks who are just mopping up the last of the resistance. At that point your archers should be highly upgraded and experienced, so any replacement matchlock units you swap in are going to underperform by comparison.
The other issue is how broken Fire by Rank is. It is very fussy, but you can get it to work if you enable the formation and click an attack order just before the target gets into range. That said it is still fussy so standard firing drill is often the better choice. Either choice when used properly can deal tremendous damage both to the target's soldier pool and to their morale.
There is a very good reason you see matchlocks actively used in multiplayer, and if they weren't viable they wouldn't be a regular sight in tournaments.In campaign they show up too late to matter (If they show up at all, you have to actively be trying for them). Online you'll see just how potent they can be, and with a simple mod that disables the hard lock that only lets the first rank fire (So you can get the firepower of FbR without the jank) they become extremely effective.
your recent videos like what the stats do gave me new vital insight into my recent shogun 2 games and now you come up with this one and blow my mind
thanks so much
You're welcome, and I'm glad to help!
I've seen fatigue make a big difference in melee fights when attacking if I charge a katana samirai into yari ashigaru, walking most of the way and then charging consistently gives me lesser losses, which in campaign translates to more experienced units and as well as no turns wasted replenishing.
The only thing fatigue does is lower morale. But with the way the melee works in the game, the fights are very "swingy", meaning that sometimes a unit will simply roll over another unit, while another unit in the same situation struggles.
Now this is getting more and more interesting!
Afaik the fatigue penalties used to work, but if I remember correctly the patch that broke Hatori and Tokugawa kiso ninjas also broke the fatigue penalties for infantry, there's mods on the workshop that fix this though.
I was just surprised to find it out, since I've always been operating under the assumption that it wasn't bugged. Especially with how everyone always praises how polished and bug-free shogun 2 is. :P
thank you for this
You're welcome!
I thought this video was uploaded atleast 3 years ago. I'm glad someone still talking about it. Well another youtuber to subscribe then.
Well like the other people who comment said. In shogun 2 fatigue decrease stats less slightly than morale penalty.
I mean, it's still a good game right? ;) Thank you for the sub!
@@TheVikingGeneral the best they can offer so far(IDK about 3K though, haven't got it) If only they have Naval landing battle like Rome 2, it would be perfect, i think. I heard that it's actually was supposed to be in the game, but got cut off before finally released. Kinda made sense because the general have the skill tree about naval battle (Admiral and Pirate).
And also, You're welcome dude. I hope for a brighter future for this channel. :)
The hero we needed, but didn't deserve
I had a funny moment with the morale penalty where one of my heavily damaged but victorious units of katana samurai shattered while chasing down enemies *after* we won the battle due to exhaustion.
Another thing that you might miss is that units that fire or shoot arrows tire themselves even if they don't move (which wasn't the case in Empire I think).
yup, basically everything a unit does will tire them. Only when standing still they recover fatigue, and when walking they are fatigue neutral.
@@TheVikingGeneral I wonder if the idle status replenishes stamina faster though.
in napoleon I found that infantry in skirmish formation loose stamina while infantry in standard formation don't which I thought was because there always crouching and un-crouching to adjust the line
Wow you're like Spirit of the Law but for Shogun 2... I hope your channel blows up.
But still Shogun 2 is not as popular as AoE2.
True, but I won't just stay focused on Shogun 2. There's only so much you can explain. ;)
But thank you very much for that compliment!
Quality content 😊👍 keep it coming!
There will definitely be more ;)
Sadly a lot of things in Shogun 2 are broken and have been for a long time. One thing I'd finally like to put to bed however, is whether sword units really do get a hidden bonus against spear type units, or whether it's just pure combat stats.
I'm still not sure about that one. I don't think they get a bonus VS naginata troops, and I've mainly seen katana vs yari ashigaru which do have quite the stat difference.
The table is definitely referenced, but it does seem the vanilla stat penalties are too small to notice. Assign an exhausted melee penalty of -10, and the unit is slaughtered in a mirror matchup, achieving only a couple kills.
What confuses me is your running speed results. On my end, these are working correctly by default. An exhausted value of -0.5 leads to very slow movement, barely faster than it walks. If I change that value to -1, the unit cannot run when it hits that fatigue threshold. It can still walk however, so this malus is only applied while running.
Love your detailed look at this game, and challenging long held assumptions!
EDIT: After testing a bit more with default/very low negative penalty values, I can say they do make a noticeable difference. You might want to try mirror matchups to reduce variables.
A penalty of -10 or a penalty of -1.0? Because if the penalty of -10 works, then it seems it is indeed just a computation error (-10 flat is huge indeed)
The difference in running speed results is indeed weird. I haven't tried to edit any values, as to minimize any fuck ups I can make by doing so. Maybe by doing a edit updates the table so it actually uses the table?
I might also do some mirror matchups, I avoided those because I didn't want morale to be a factor in the match, since I know that that works as intended.
@@TheVikingGeneral It looks like you're spot-on. I went back and did a totally vanilla test, and I saw your results. I tried a mod where literally the only file is the fatigue_effects table - imported from data.pack with 0 changes - and suddenly there was a run speed difference for exhausted units. Combat results still not very noticeable, but honestly that's probably just S2's absurdly high kill rates at work.
So it looks like either the table is not being read, or perhaps it's being overridden by a blank table from some other pack, though no other pack has database entries. Or it could be something else entirely, because this bug is odd.
In any case, it would mean that any mod that includes changes to fatigue_effects would have the "intended" system up and running.
@@Kolaris8472 Awesome, that is some interesting informaton. These insights might warrant an addendum :P
Thanks for the video! As explained in the pinned comment, it seems the game has a bug with infantry fatigue. I found some mod to address that. My recent playthrough was using Takeda with a lot of cavalries, so it wouldn't be fair if infantry combat capabilities aren't affected by fatigue. I have a question when a unit is exhausted, the narrator suggests that the unit should ”rest". Should the unit rest? And how long? What fatigue level can be achieved by resting? I have tried to rest a unit from an exhausted state, but I am unable to achieve a fresh state.
Thanks for the info
No problem 👍
I think it might be better to include the fact that the breaking units (we might consider it as in the ultimate morale penalty) loss the ability to fight completely and just get massacred. Personally I think it could be on the efficiency and effectiveness of the engagement as in how well the abilities were utilized in the engagement calculations.
Yeah, a morale penalty can definitely be scary. But if you're confident your troops won't break, it should be perfectly fine to just exhaust them and suffer no consequences.
another great video!
will you make one about modding in the future?
Hmm, I'm not too big on modding myself. I don't know why, but I don't feel the need to mod most total war games (empire being the only exception I think).
But who knows what the future might bring? ;)
@@TheVikingGeneral You should check out Total FoTS!
Morale penalty is definitely a thing when the unit is exhausted. The morale penalty still does well in the samurai or warrior monk class while in ashigaru or levy this can make unit rout. But the combat performance is still okay or even it decreases it is still subtle change rather than morale which is an obvious change. I fight using katana samurai and tercos, they are battle hardened but they are exhausted and they can still rout when they get a fresh one but that still takes time than experienced ashigaru than once they are tired they are quite easily routed, even yari wall cannot fix this problem well when the unit is exhausted. But that is my experience
Great Video-Cover Pic
The men are fatigued and some have to rest!
I have heard that line way too many times now XD
what i've noticed with Volound is that he has his units running most of the time instead of only when needet
he is tiring them for no reason
but after this video i understand almost no downside compared to expectation of what fatigue does
nothing at yellow and orange only in red it can make a difference on low morale troops depending on the situation
and cav fatigues slower right ?
Pretty much yeah
What?!? When I fight my men slow to an absolute crawl when Exhausted how strange
You probably have either a mod installed or edited the table in some way. A pure vanilla game will have the same results, but it seems that if the referenced table is edited in some way, the table works as intended.
@@TheVikingGeneral I do not, When playing with friends we use no mods
@@nuffly893 But have you ever modded the game? Another commenter mentioned that after doing a fresh vanilla install he got the same results.
And the fatigue does work for cavalry, even in the fresh vanilla install.
Did you try to change the numbers in the spreadsheet to see the results?
Please make a video about matchlock units
Will do, but I still have to pretty much finish a campaign before I'm able to properly make the video. There are some nuances you just can't test with custom battles alone. ;)
@@TheVikingGeneral how do you go about your campaign trials? What difficulty and to what extent would you use matchlocks?
@@novitrix9671 I've tried out a few different clans to also experiment a bit with christianity and nanban trade, but I ran into some trouble.
I'm currently into a oda campaign on very hard difficulty (both campaign and battle). I'm not playing on legendary, since I want to try various things, so reloading is nice.
I'm trying to see if I can get a mixed army and if I can get a "line infantry" army, which has melee buffed matchlock samurai.
@@TheVikingGeneral that looks epic make it work!
THERE'S ELEPHANT?! MONKAS
Maybe some got lost on the sea and drifted over to Japan? :P
Did they fix in lastest ver ? and can someone suggest any kind of mods for better Banner information ?
No, they never fixed this. I don't even know when the last update actually was.
👏 🙂
Maybe the fatigue debuff only affects the charge bonus? It's mostly a random guess btw I haven't tested it.
That is also a possibility yes. I'm afraid a lot of testing needs to be done in order to fully understand it.
I demand Warhammer 2 Total war video!!!)
They will come. Eventually :P
Does darthmod fix this glitch?
-4 for morale is huge debuffthough
It is! But you'd expect more than that when a unit should be to tired to even lift their sword.
Otomo clan guide pls
It's on my to-do list ;)
@@TheVikingGeneral okay
Casul Infantries: You are weak and exhaust.
Katana Samurais: just because I get nerf does not mean you get buff casuls.
Does morale affect combat performance?
It doesn't affect the actual being able to kill part, but it does affect how easily they run away.
It's because the Japanese a very strong willed people
You can be tired when you're dead. :P
It definitely affects running speed.