Very interesting video, thanks! I'm from Cologne and a major part of the income of this city before modern times was that it had a harbor deep enough for sea merchant ships but the river Rhine above was too shallow for them. So the ships had to unload, offer their wares in Cologne and load them on smaller river ships. Maybe White Harbor is in a similar position? That's like a license for printing money for a city.
Yes, I would guess this is almost certainly the case. For example; when the Iron Men first took Winterfell there is a reference that Manderly sent reinforcements upriver to try to retake it. And it specifically says he sent them by barge. So I would assume that trans-ocean transit is conducted by large merchant ships, which then transfer cargoes at White Harbor, while the river transit along the White Knife is conducted by river-going ships designed for that purpose.
Defend is the key word. The north remembers. Get rid of the Boltons put a Stark in Winterfell and defend. Defend the neck and the rivers. Southern armies and navy's can't break those defenses. Ned Stark told us as much already. If it comes to war do these 3 three. She did none. Robb marched south when he should have turned around. All bc Cat didn't listen to her ned. Instead she took the imp. Another folly. The king who lost the North. I really hope the books let Jon Snow help take it back for his brother or for himself.
Just so you know, Norway (and also Sweden) was a major supplier of woods and timber as well as fish, to continental Europe. Many parts of central Amsterdam for instance, is built on norwegian timber driven in to the ground. The british was also a big market for the norwegian timber industry as well, being used to help build their fleets an houses after their own forests started becoming depleted. It is really interesting that you mentioned the black death and the comparison between the north of Europe and the north of Westeros. Norway having always relied on open trade and a large merchant fleet was hit particularly hard by the black death from 1349, when it arrived by ship. Almost two thirds of the population died, as well as the much of the nobility and clergy. The royal house line of succession went extinct as well, weakening the country significantly, reducing it from a powerful seafaring north atlantic empire, to a danish dominated underdog in the Kalmar union, with only a weaken "riksråd" or "council of the realm" left, witch gradually was undermined by the danish-norwegian king. The country was hit hard, and recovered much slower than most of mainland Europe or the British isles, creating much of the same economic situation in the timber industry as you described in the North, but being more complicated and with less profit, mainly because of the mountainous terrain and difficult transportation.
This is the best video of aSoIaF and GoT I've seen so far. And I probably have seen hundreds by now. WOW. This actually answered some of my own concerns about aSoIaF that no one seems to address. Cheers, keep the good work going.
Am I hallucinating or does Paxter Redwyne at 16:23 look like he's gonna break into song? Specifically: "It's astounding ... time is ... fleeting, Madness ... takes its toll, but listen closely..."
I really liked it. I had never thought properly about how important money is when it comes to war (even if we're talking about a fantasy world and a fantasy war). Thanks a lot, handsome.
Have you read Fevre Dream? GRRM shows a lot of knowledge of river navigation by paddel steamers in the 1850s, presumably before major dredging was undertaken. He repeatedly talks about how difficult it is to navigate these rivers and how even a good pilot from several years agonis useless if he is no longer working, that is if his knowledge of the sand bars and obstacles is not current.
I haven't read fevre dream, actually. But I've read quite a few real accounts of people from that same era traveling on rivers and they all say the same thing.
Naturally, it's a great book. I can't remember anymore but what happened to the war galleys that Cersei has made. They were stolen but could make a reappearance? Maybe used against her?
All of this hinges on the house. Now Manderly seems steadfastly loyal to the Starks for their hospitality in welcoming them to the north, and mayhaps they are... But. We have not learned why the Manderlys got the boot from the Reach. Just hints at they overreached(pun intended) themselves. Now maybe that was a singular Manderly, particular to avarice, but what if it is their nature? Maybe the Manderly vision has forgot their humility and debt that can never be repaid and has looked to be the most powerful house in the north... We wont know till the winds of winter
Addressed this option in my original North Remembers video, but in summary, I believe Manderly understands that he doesn't have many northern families endeared to him or his house, many lords don't respect him personally because he is fat and does not go to war, and the Reeds have no particular reason to support him so he would have no way to hold the Neck. Plus, if you read GRRM's other works, his characters of the archetype of the fat hermit never work for direct control/power.
@@anamericanthinks472 I will have to go back and watch the 1st video! Came here from the God's Eye analysis. I definitely am going to check out grrm's other works. Have heard good things. Love your content you bring a unique look into the world of Os.
@AnAmercicanThinks what role do you think the Mallister if any will have reportedly they have six long ships and two war galleys the two that went North with Meage Moremont and Galbert Glover the Mallisters are definitely pro Stark anti Lannisters and could be swayed to Wyman's side maybe watching the Iron Born and reporting on them to him I'm sure that they are covertly building more ships as they have the Whispering Wood in their Sphere of influence
In theory, they could help the Manderly cause. Considering Jason Mallister and his heir were being kept under guard by the Freys last time we saw them, whatever support they offer would have to be very subtle or very anonymous. Kind of the position that Manderly was in until he got his own heir back; now he doesn't have anything holding him back from doing what he wants.
+AnAmericanThinks yea but considering the bwb and their war against the Frey's and Lannisters its a possibility that Patrek could be freed I don't remember exactly where he is being held the Twins or is he going with Edmure to the Westerlands
Commenting almost 4 years late, but this is a great theory! If you go with Preston Jacobs' theory that Littlefinger is less interested in the North than he is in the Riverlands, then he has a heck of a bargaining chip with the Manderleys (or whoever winds up controlling Rickon). Sansa is probably the only person who could confirm whether or not the kid brought back from Skagos is actually Rickon Stark and be widely believed (I mean there's Jon but he's dead at the moment, and Arya and Bran are missing presumed dead), so Littlefinger could help legitimize their control of the North or make it a lot messier, and he wouldn't have to worry about risking his army or losing control of Sansa. Meanwhile, Rickon is a puppet lord and Sansa can't help from the Northern lords because they're dependent on Manderley and he's made a deal with Littlefinger that requires her staying the fuck away.
I also think Manderly is very important, with big things happening at White Harbour. The only port in the north that doesn't freeze over, that will be solid gold real estate once the winds of winter really start to blow.
Love your theory videos. Please make more videos like these. If possible, can you discuss your speculation on other characters, as you are with Wyman Manderly.
Thank you for the offer. To be honest, the issue for me really isn't so much money, it's time. I have a pretty good career, so I don't really hurt for money. It's just handling all the responsibilities that come with it.
17:30 plus there's the problem of getting a ship from the reach to the north. location matters. there's a reason the USA has naval bases on the east and west coasts, and doesn't just try transporting ships around the continent.
Yes, the Redwyne's are looking at a logistical nightmare; it will be virtually impossible for them to guard the coast line without fragmenting, and significantly weakening, their fleet.
Truly awesome vid dude keep it up. I've always suspected that the first nights watch were all (or almost) killed and reanimated by the nights King. Then when Bran the braker and King Joramon retook the wall they " broke the spell on the black brothers,which I take to mean they were whites and needed to be burnt. Can't Wait to see what u come up with for the horn of winter
Could you do a video on the Stoney Shore, other than being the first Northern Ironborn target we don't have much info on them that I could find. Mayhap you will do better Ser lol...
Talking about navy's ,Aurane waters and his Drommonds are currently in the stepstones, those are proper war galleys, could prove an issue for any navy invading or sailing around westeros, though i guess the King of The waters will be bought off by Aegon or Dany or Euron.
Yes, the Royal Fleet is rebuilding, however, not yet with the types of numbers we're speaking of. Also, drommonds a little different than war galleys; I didn't mention them in this vid...probably should have...
+AnAmericanThinks do you think the Norths large quantity of timber and charcoal could be used as leverage or payment to the iron bank or the city itself.
In the sense that exporting timber and charcoal generates wealth for the North, yes. But if you're asking if they can offer the Iron Bank large amounts of timber and charcoal in exchange for eliminating debt, then I doubt it. Without knowing what exact prices are for these commodities it's mostly guess work, but I'm fairly confident that a few million gold dragons worth of timber or charcoal would be an astronomical volume of these goods, and I don't think Braavos can make use of that much of these goods.
Regarding war galleys travelling up and down rivers, while it certainly wouldn't be their primary design consideration I would think that most galleys could travel up and down most major rivers with little concern if guided to avoid underwater obstacles (which should be well known to local traders, fishermen and sailors if the river's used for trade and fishing). It should also be noted that even a fully loaded and very large war galley is going to under 300 tons of displacement (even by the Battle of Lepanto war galleys only ranged from 140-180 tons usually with a few rare exceptions larger than that) and earlier in history between Classical Greece and the early Middle ages prior to cannons being invented when the big heavy rams of those ships were even more important the ships still only displaced 80-100 tons. Compare that to the modern river barges that do require regular dredging on the river to operate, in my brief look into the subject their payload (not counting the weight of the barge, just the max cargo capacity) ranged from 305 tons to 14,000 tons. It's likely the war galleys are goig to be able to travel up the White Knife easily enough. Longships can use smaller rivers too though.
Those maps of the forests are all kinds of fucked up, unless it only delineates mostly virgin forest that is either reserved for hunting, or is economically nonviable to tap. Otherwise, the Boltons would not have been able to hold out like they apparently did. Of course, at the point in the story, they would likely have instated reforestation measures centuries ago, tree farms, which isn't hard and isn't even a 'modern' idea. But then, Im bitching about fantasy maps, most of which are terrible anyways, and a particular series in which the author, like many scifi authors, demonstrates a poor sense of general scale.
It's a good question, and unfortunately, there's no good way to answer this. For one, GRRM doesn't give us any kind of framework for estimating this. For two, the price can probably vary considerably according to supply and demand. For example; I bet if you showed up at Kings Landing as of the end of aDwD, you could get a premium for selling your warship. But at, say, Braavos, probably not so much.
AnAmericanThinks Right, that makes sense. I assume someone with the resources and ability to produce their own ships wouldnt pay as much as someone expecting to be invaded by sea.
I think that's part of it. The other thing is that Braavos hasn't been involved in any major wars and its fleet is mostly intact, and no one is really directly threatening them at the moment. While King's Landing is incredibly vulnerable at the moment and needs all the ships it can get.
AnAmericanThinks Right, I was just speaking broadly as to the variance in price someone might be willing to pay. Actually, I imagine building *new* ships would be very expensive for the Braavosi because of the shortage of wood there.
The Redwyne fleet doesn't need to defend the whole of southern Westeros, The Tyrels control that fleet why would they make the Reach more vulnerable to defend the Dornish coast or the Stormlands or the Vale?. There alliance with the Lannisters MIGHT force them to defend the Westerlands and Crownlands but the Stormlands, Dorne & the Vale would be left to the pirates.
Many continental Europeans still don't eat meat all that often, certainly not as often as Americans. That's one of the reasons I moved to the US as I loathe all fish and seafood! Christmas Eve where I grew up we have the Feast of Seven Fishes (a living hell for me) or an assortment of seven meatless dishes including gag-inducing, foul-smelling fish. ugh. If God intended for us to eat fish, why is it so nasty?
I'm not sure, as I personally enjoy just about all kinds of fish. Not so much seafood. But certainly, if you aren't a big fish/seafood fan, the Feast of 7 Fishes would not be pleasant :(
That's the other big one in the US; in this case, the mouth of the river is sheltered by Manhattan Island/Staten Island/Long Island, so the city is right at the mouth.
Very interesting video, thanks!
I'm from Cologne and a major part of the income of this city before modern times was that it had a harbor deep enough for sea merchant ships but the river Rhine above was too shallow for them. So the ships had to unload, offer their wares in Cologne and load them on smaller river ships. Maybe White Harbor is in a similar position? That's like a license for printing money for a city.
Yes, I would guess this is almost certainly the case. For example; when the Iron Men first took Winterfell there is a reference that Manderly sent reinforcements upriver to try to retake it. And it specifically says he sent them by barge. So I would assume that trans-ocean transit is conducted by large merchant ships, which then transfer cargoes at White Harbor, while the river transit along the White Knife is conducted by river-going ships designed for that purpose.
AnAmericanThinks Nice. Thanks for the info! =3
Nathan Jessep Sure thing; glad you liked the video.
AnAmericanThinks I really did!
Defend is the key word. The north remembers. Get rid of the Boltons put a Stark in Winterfell and defend. Defend the neck and the rivers. Southern armies and navy's can't break those defenses. Ned Stark told us as much already. If it comes to war do these 3 three. She did none. Robb marched south when he should have turned around. All bc Cat didn't listen to her ned. Instead she took the imp. Another folly. The king who lost the North. I really hope the books let Jon Snow help take it back for his brother or for himself.
I appreciate your economical and geographical perspective on ASOIAF. Same with your PJ responses. Keep up the good work!
Thanks! Glad you liked it!
Just so you know, Norway (and also Sweden) was a major supplier of woods and timber as well as fish, to continental Europe. Many parts of central Amsterdam for instance, is built on norwegian timber driven in to the ground. The british was also a big market for the norwegian timber industry as well, being used to help build their fleets an houses after their own forests started becoming depleted.
It is really interesting that you mentioned the black death and the comparison between the north of Europe and the north of Westeros. Norway having always relied on open trade and a large merchant fleet was hit particularly hard by the black death from 1349, when it arrived by ship. Almost two thirds of the population died, as well as the much of the nobility and clergy. The royal house line of succession went extinct as well, weakening the country significantly, reducing it from a powerful seafaring north atlantic empire, to a danish dominated underdog in the Kalmar union, with only a weaken "riksråd" or "council of the realm" left, witch gradually was undermined by the danish-norwegian king. The country was hit hard, and recovered much slower than most of mainland Europe or the British isles, creating much of the same economic situation in the timber industry as you described in the North, but being more complicated and with less profit, mainly because of the mountainous terrain and difficult transportation.
This is the best video of aSoIaF and GoT I've seen so far. And I probably have seen hundreds by now.
WOW. This actually answered some of my own concerns about aSoIaF that no one seems to address.
Cheers, keep the good work going.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
Am I hallucinating or does Paxter Redwyne at 16:23 look like he's gonna break into song?
Specifically:
"It's astounding ... time is ... fleeting,
Madness ... takes its toll, but listen closely..."
hahaha. the sails are also magenta :D for our voyeuristic intention.
5:19 in the North they have own source of salt ! South from Barrowtown .
Thanks for giving us such a clear view of the naval situation!
Thank you so much for this gift! :D
You're welcome!
I really liked it.
I had never thought properly about how important money is when it comes to war (even if we're talking about a fantasy world and a fantasy war).
Thanks a lot, handsome.
Gracias! Glad you enjoyed it :)
Have you read Fevre Dream? GRRM shows a lot of knowledge of river navigation by paddel steamers in the 1850s, presumably before major dredging was undertaken. He repeatedly talks about how difficult it is to navigate these rivers and how even a good pilot from several years agonis useless if he is no longer working, that is if his knowledge of the sand bars and obstacles is not current.
I haven't read fevre dream, actually. But I've read quite a few real accounts of people from that same era traveling on rivers and they all say the same thing.
Naturally, it's a great book.
I can't remember anymore but what happened to the war galleys that Cersei has made. They were stolen but could make a reappearance? Maybe used against her?
All of this hinges on the house. Now Manderly seems steadfastly loyal to the Starks for their hospitality in welcoming them to the north, and mayhaps they are... But. We have not learned why the Manderlys got the boot from the Reach. Just hints at they overreached(pun intended) themselves. Now maybe that was a singular Manderly, particular to avarice, but what if it is their nature? Maybe the Manderly vision has forgot their humility and debt that can never be repaid and has looked to be the most powerful house in the north... We wont know till the winds of winter
Addressed this option in my original North Remembers video, but in summary, I believe Manderly understands that he doesn't have many northern families endeared to him or his house, many lords don't respect him personally because he is fat and does not go to war, and the Reeds have no particular reason to support him so he would have no way to hold the Neck. Plus, if you read GRRM's other works, his characters of the archetype of the fat hermit never work for direct control/power.
@@anamericanthinks472 I will have to go back and watch the 1st video! Came here from the God's Eye analysis. I definitely am going to check out grrm's other works. Have heard good things. Love your content you bring a unique look into the world of Os.
@AnAmercicanThinks what role do you think the Mallister if any will have reportedly they have six long ships and two war galleys the two that went North with Meage Moremont and Galbert Glover the Mallisters are definitely pro Stark anti Lannisters and could be swayed to Wyman's side maybe watching the Iron Born and reporting on them to him I'm sure that they are covertly building more ships as they have the Whispering Wood in their Sphere of influence
In theory, they could help the Manderly cause. Considering Jason Mallister and his heir were being kept under guard by the Freys last time we saw them, whatever support they offer would have to be very subtle or very anonymous. Kind of the position that Manderly was in until he got his own heir back; now he doesn't have anything holding him back from doing what he wants.
+AnAmericanThinks yea but considering the bwb and their war against the Frey's and Lannisters its a possibility that Patrek could be freed I don't remember exactly where he is being held the Twins or is he going with Edmure to the Westerlands
This is so interesting! I'm in love with the idea of geopolitical and economics in Planetos 💜 subscribed!
Agreed!!!
Excellent content. Please keep it up!
12:00 London is another port upstream of the river mouth.
True. There are actually quite a few examples worldwide.
Commenting almost 4 years late, but this is a great theory! If you go with Preston Jacobs' theory that Littlefinger is less interested in the North than he is in the Riverlands, then he has a heck of a bargaining chip with the Manderleys (or whoever winds up controlling Rickon). Sansa is probably the only person who could confirm whether or not the kid brought back from Skagos is actually Rickon Stark and be widely believed (I mean there's Jon but he's dead at the moment, and Arya and Bran are missing presumed dead), so Littlefinger could help legitimize their control of the North or make it a lot messier, and he wouldn't have to worry about risking his army or losing control of Sansa. Meanwhile, Rickon is a puppet lord and Sansa can't help from the Northern lords because they're dependent on Manderley and he's made a deal with Littlefinger that requires her staying the fuck away.
you have a unique voice!! good job!!
Thank you!
Pumped for this
Glad to hear it!
I also think Manderly is very important, with big things happening at White Harbour. The only port in the north that doesn't freeze over, that will be solid gold real estate once the winds of winter really start to blow.
Agreed.
Love your theory videos. Please make more videos like these. If possible, can you discuss your speculation on other characters, as you are with Wyman Manderly.
This is just what I needed
Glad I could help :D
great stuff!! Do you have a patreon that we can help you with? Id love to see your content more regularly.
Thank you for the offer. To be honest, the issue for me really isn't so much money, it's time. I have a pretty good career, so I don't really hurt for money. It's just handling all the responsibilities that come with it.
17:30 plus there's the problem of getting a ship from the reach to the north. location matters. there's a reason the USA has naval bases on the east and west coasts, and doesn't just try transporting ships around the continent.
Yes, the Redwyne's are looking at a logistical nightmare; it will be virtually impossible for them to guard the coast line without fragmenting, and significantly weakening, their fleet.
Interesting, very interesting.
Truly awesome vid dude keep it up. I've always suspected that the first nights watch were all (or almost) killed and reanimated by the nights King. Then when Bran the braker and King Joramon retook the wall they " broke the spell on the black brothers,which I take to mean they were whites and needed to be burnt. Can't Wait to see what u come up with for the horn of winter
Thanks, glad you liked it!
love your videos! and this topic
Thank you Dr. Zoidberg!
Could you do a video on the Stoney Shore, other than being the first Northern Ironborn target we don't have much info on them that I could find. Mayhap you will do better Ser lol...
I've got a line-up of topics planned for a while yet; once I get through those I guess we'll see. Thanks for watching!
Talking about navy's ,Aurane waters and his Drommonds are currently in the stepstones, those are proper war galleys, could prove an issue for any navy invading or sailing around westeros, though i guess the King of The waters will be bought off by Aegon or Dany or Euron.
Yes, the Royal Fleet is rebuilding, however, not yet with the types of numbers we're speaking of. Also, drommonds a little different than war galleys; I didn't mention them in this vid...probably should have...
+AnAmericanThinks do you think the Norths large quantity of timber and charcoal could be used as leverage or payment to the iron bank or the city itself.
In the sense that exporting timber and charcoal generates wealth for the North, yes. But if you're asking if they can offer the Iron Bank large amounts of timber and charcoal in exchange for eliminating debt, then I doubt it. Without knowing what exact prices are for these commodities it's mostly guess work, but I'm fairly confident that a few million gold dragons worth of timber or charcoal would be an astronomical volume of these goods, and I don't think Braavos can make use of that much of these goods.
But what did the text you got at 5:31 say?
Sadly, it was from my wife letting me know that one of my friends was diagnosed with cancer :(
Regarding war galleys travelling up and down rivers, while it certainly wouldn't be their primary design consideration I would think that most galleys could travel up and down most major rivers with little concern if guided to avoid underwater obstacles (which should be well known to local traders, fishermen and sailors if the river's used for trade and fishing). It should also be noted that even a fully loaded and very large war galley is going to under 300 tons of displacement (even by the Battle of Lepanto war galleys only ranged from 140-180 tons usually with a few rare exceptions larger than that) and earlier in history between Classical Greece and the early Middle ages prior to cannons being invented when the big heavy rams of those ships were even more important the ships still only displaced 80-100 tons. Compare that to the modern river barges that do require regular dredging on the river to operate, in my brief look into the subject their payload (not counting the weight of the barge, just the max cargo capacity) ranged from 305 tons to 14,000 tons. It's likely the war galleys are goig to be able to travel up the White Knife easily enough.
Longships can use smaller rivers too though.
Those maps of the forests are all kinds of fucked up, unless it only delineates mostly virgin forest that is either reserved for hunting, or is economically nonviable to tap. Otherwise, the Boltons would not have been able to hold out like they apparently did. Of course, at the point in the story, they would likely have instated reforestation measures centuries ago, tree farms, which isn't hard and isn't even a 'modern' idea.
But then, Im bitching about fantasy maps, most of which are terrible anyways, and a particular series in which the author, like many scifi authors, demonstrates a poor sense of general scale.
you sound EXACTLY like Carl Sagan. Are you his son?! Lol :) The tone, the sophistication, the rhythm, etc...haha Love your vid, AAT!
good work...as usual!
Thank you!
Another thought provoking video. In rough terms, how valuable do you think a single war galley or a single longship would be?
It's a good question, and unfortunately, there's no good way to answer this. For one, GRRM doesn't give us any kind of framework for estimating this. For two, the price can probably vary considerably according to supply and demand. For example; I bet if you showed up at Kings Landing as of the end of aDwD, you could get a premium for selling your warship. But at, say, Braavos, probably not so much.
AnAmericanThinks Right, that makes sense. I assume someone with the resources and ability to produce their own ships wouldnt pay as much as someone expecting to be invaded by sea.
I think that's part of it. The other thing is that Braavos hasn't been involved in any major wars and its fleet is mostly intact, and no one is really directly threatening them at the moment. While King's Landing is incredibly vulnerable at the moment and needs all the ships it can get.
AnAmericanThinks Right, I was just speaking broadly as to the variance in price someone might be willing to pay. Actually, I imagine building *new* ships would be very expensive for the Braavosi because of the shortage of wood there.
An American overthinks, lol love the vids though
Glad you liked it :P
You need to return! Also, salted codfish = Portugal's official national dish :D
You didn't address the Braavosi fleet, and the PJ theory that littlefinger is bankrupting the vale to pave the way for a Braavosi invasion.
Yes, this was pretty specific to the naval affairs of Westeros. However, I've alluded to this in my previous North Remembers video.
its been a while since your last video, I'll have to watch it again.
Also the Manderlys are the richest house in the North next to the Starks
You say Redwine and Manderly are the only fleets left - What about the missing Iron fleet/ Aurane Rivers?
Kyla M Waters?
ranica47 yep good call. point is still valid though :P
I did think of the Redwyne fleet, but they're very busy with the Ironborn. I would also think they would be going for Aegon's forces first.
The Redwyne fleet doesn't need to defend the whole of southern Westeros, The Tyrels control that fleet why would they make the Reach more vulnerable to defend the Dornish coast or the Stormlands or the Vale?. There alliance with the Lannisters MIGHT force them to defend the Westerlands and Crownlands but the Stormlands, Dorne & the Vale would be left to the pirates.
~don't see the saltapns working that well during winter, they probably have salt mines
Many continental Europeans still don't eat meat all that often, certainly not as often as Americans. That's one of the reasons I moved to the US as I loathe all fish and seafood!
Christmas Eve where I grew up we have the Feast of Seven Fishes (a living hell for me) or an assortment of seven meatless dishes including gag-inducing, foul-smelling fish. ugh. If God intended for us to eat fish, why is it so nasty?
I'm not sure, as I personally enjoy just about all kinds of fish. Not so much seafood. But certainly, if you aren't a big fish/seafood fan, the Feast of 7 Fishes would not be pleasant :(
200th like :)
Hudson river
That's the other big one in the US; in this case, the mouth of the river is sheltered by Manhattan Island/Staten Island/Long Island, so the city is right at the mouth.