@Tracey Walker ...you had Damn well better have a worthy family member that the 29 can be bequeathed to... Don't allow it to go back into public circulation. 😀
I know it’s impractical, but I wish S&W would make a separate line of their old revolvers with forged parts, pinned & recessed, and with no Hillary hole. I’d be willing to pay a premium for that.
I own my fair share of pre-lock/pre-MIM and Post MIM S&Ws, and can say without hesitation that I’d take a pre-lock/pre-MIM any day over a newer S&W, namely for the fit, finish, smoothness and general reliability. A number of my newer S&Ws have had to be returned to the factory for repairs (timing, barrel, fit and finish issues). For heavy shooting or stout loads, I’ll generally pull out the Ruger GP-100 over either generations of S&Ws.
On the J and K/L frame, they also need to change the curvature of the frame between the cylinder release and the hammer to accomodate the lock hole, that just ruined the overall look of the revolver. It's like your favorite supermodel is nice everywhere except now her waist is 6 inches bigger.
I believe that the older S&W revolvers were more thoroughly inspected by a skilled human being, by nature of the older build process. Automation economizes the build process and there are less process imperfections, but a higher percentage of imperfections escape detection.
I have to agree with that. The quality control has dropped significantly. In Europe, it is extremely difficult to get a S&W revolver as they are usually sold out and have extremely long delivery times (9 months or longer). When you finally get your revolver and it is still a faulty gun, you have to complain about it and after about 9 months you get it back from the repair shop. This of course discourages a buyer from purchasing a revolver. That's why people here in Austria tend to buy pistols (GLOCK).
@@hanszarkov7807i see a lot of them around in norway but brand new ones have almost doubled in price the last few years and some models may be hard to find in stock
I think the saddest part is that Taurus, of all companies, found a less gross way to do an internal lock than S&W. I own both and don't get too wound up one way or another, but the way the lock was executed is just downright shameful.
You would expect any manufacturer to improve if they plan on staying in business , sadly in America it’s not always the case ! Cost cutting can have dire consequences , the worst you can do is cut cost and increase the price of a product with less quality , reputation is everything in this business !
I swore I'd never buy a S&W when they aligned with anti-handgun lobbyists way back in the late 80's; when they were sold to a British plumbing comply company... And of course introduced the most useless POS on a firearm in recorded history (a lock on a revolver, of all choices) ... I've held strong but S&W has made it easy honestly...to me S&W is as dead as "colt" which is nothing but a trademark at this point.
@@libtardgunlover762 "Cost cutting is the result of improved technology and manufacturing." Not always, in fact probably not in most cases. The worst is products on amazon where you buy something that is great, a few years down the line you buy the same thing, either because you want another, or for a friend or relative and it's a complete pile of junk. I have realized that this is an amazon seller (china) strategy. Make something nice, sell it for a while and get good reviews, then replace all the parts/materials with the cheapest you can find after you get good review. If you get negative reviews offer the reviewer another product for free if they change their reviews.
Brownell's is an industry heavy hitter. Have you ever spoken with Smith and Wesson about how much the overwhelming number of consumers dislike the lock?
Inherited a pre-model 10 from my grandfather. You won't be finding a double action trigger any better than this ! American made equipment in the late 1940's is hard to equal at any price.
Due fairness to your pre-M10 Military & Police, it's had over@ 70 years of potential use to naturally smooth the lock works. I still agree that pre-lock Smith's are better quality. I recently bought a Model 10-5 and will not part with it until my time on Earth is finished.
A gun like that will last for many lifetimes...it’s sad,technology has improved greatly since then but the quality of products has plummeted..just look at all the old TVs,electrical appliances,power tools,cars,etc that are still going strong today..these days when you buy a new freezer,oven,tv,air conditioner,etc you are lucky if lasts a decade
I have an M27, a 686+ and 2 M19. I take all 4 to the range. When one starts getting hot I put it down and pickup another. I will admit that I generally shoot .38 Special through the K Frames. I just love the L & N Frames with full magnum loads; but then I love any gun that throws such a fireball that at close range it'll cauterize the exit wound. Great video, please keep them coming!
I like the look of my old S&W's. I load 44 cal, 200gr hollow-points to about 1200fps never had an issue with performance. In 44 or 45 you don't need full house loads to hunt. Full house loads will eventually loosen up most revolvers.
I can’t get past the aesthetics of the sleeved barrels on new Smith & Wesson revolvers. Sorry, I don’t know if it’s all models or just some, but I just don’t like the look.
the m1917 revolvers are pretty darn well built. I've never seen a revolver more well crafted than a smith and wesson in long colt .45 from end of 1890s.
Great video, gentlemen, and I thank you both. Here’s an example to prove your “booth great” thesis. I own three Smith, f0ve-inch barrel, N Frame .357 magnums: a wonderful 27-2 and two Special Edition 627s. They’re all great, all can easily outshoot me, all are very well manufactured and designed, exhibiting the highest accuracy, quality, durability and reliability. I frequently carry a 627, but I always admire the 27-2.
No doubt in my mind - if the prices are the same and there is a new Smith and an old (pinned/recessed) Smith in the gun store's case, I will most certainly buy the vintage revolver.
Bought a "newer" 629 , with the lock, and oiled it up and while dry firing it, to break it in, just like I have done on multiple firearms in the past, and it completely locked up. Could not pull the trigger back or single action cock it. Took it in to warranty center and when I went to pick it up the smith showed me the tiny internal MIM parts that broke. Very glad it happened while dry firing and not in a self defense situation.
Thank you for this video. I own 6 S&W Revolver's so far. I own both older and newer models. I agree with you, my biggest gripe about the newer models is the lock.
I handled a 27-9 recently. The bright finish was superb. The rifling was kinda C+. Shallow, and not a sharp corner anywhere on the lands. Looks like a new J Frame where they soften the rifling so as not to build pressure, allowing the +P rating.
Every new S&W I've bought in the last decade I've ended up selling very quickly after shooting ...just not as good as my older S&Ws. I've not given up on S&W but Ive stopped actively shopping for them when I'm looking for a revolver.
I love my sw wheelguns, but take issue with the excessive barrel cylinder gap on some of my new ones. Case in point, 686-6 had 007" gap on left side of gun, and 013" gap on right side. (yes, I measured both sides, because it blew so violently, even with 38 rounds) I sent it back to sw, they replaced the 6" barrel and slicked up the action. Well done and thanks to sw.👍
Great video! Comparing the craftsmanship to better and stronger materials is a great video for brownells. Lots to consider when purchasing this day and age. Definitely love a model 29 someday 😉 thanks for the info!
I have a 29-2 .44mag with the 6.5in barrel that was made in 1972. It was my grandfather's gun. He gave it to me in 1990. Beautiful gun. I have never been able to bring myself to shoot it.
I own an old model 66 And a new 629 and I love them both. Best revolver triggers I have ever used, the 44magnum 629 is SCARY smooth in single action, you just THINK of pulling the trigger and it goes off!
When I was still working for Oshman's more than a decade ago we got the special run of satin finished, high polished cylinder 5" full lugged barrel model 25 in .45 Colt & I am STILL bashing my head against available solid objects for not picking one up when I had the chance. It was without a doubt the bet fitted & finished revolver short of the 1980's era Colt Custom Shop Python. That Smith, which was running under $700 at the time, if my addled brain recollects correctly, was AMASING across the board. Oh the folly's of youth. I didn't even mind the Lock, the gun was that gorgeous & properly tuned.
My recent S&W purchases have been all trash. I won't buy another one...nor will my friend. Both have been back multiple times to S&W repair...and still not fixed.
I still wish they recessed cylinders, the barrel pins I don't care for so much but loading up my pre-28 highway patrolman feels cleaner than the newer guns.
Older Smith revolvers usually have really smooth triggers from being shot for decades. New Smiths, like any other new handgun, have stiff triggers. A trigger job or a case of ammo can go a long ways to smoothing them out... That is, if you can afford to shoot your new Smith after your procurement of ammo! My main concern/complaint is the Lawyer-inspired locking design. To me, that's 99% of stiff trigger problem! De-lawyer the design and the problems go away!!!
I sold a very early model 58 about 3 years ago , “S” prefix serial number which I believe was an early production , Had the diamond checkered serial number match grips I should have probably kept it ,seeing what they’re bringing now , live and learn
Sent more customer's larger hard hitting caliber guns back to smith for lock issues . Some fit and finish on the newer guns were terrible, check out some S&W forums.
I purchased a Smith Thunder ranch model 22-4 , the 45acp ,new , when it was first introduced , 30 rounds in , cylinder latch falls off , Locktite repaired that , 50 rounds later , trigger return spring breaks , , had it repaired by a police department armorer (40years experience), the bluing is patchy , looks like something I’d do , but it has the thunder ranch logo on the grips , all of this for about 800.00 , back in about 2007 (don’t remember exactly ) , very disappointing . I’ve never fired it since .
My dad has some old Smiths, some with no dash some with a low number after the dash. They are very beautiful and they shoot amazing. I have a 500 S&W and that gun has a nice trigger, its more accurate than me, and its well built. I shoot my new smith but I lust after the old ones.
I carried a Smith & Wesson model 66 (357 magnum) for many years thousands of rounds qualifying, and practice. I never had any problems. But, I have heard of some with forcing cone cracking with a steady diet of the 357 Magnum hot loads. (I"ll stick to my model 66, Very smooth from years of shooting)
I had both of my S&W revolvers fail on me. A 1986 Model 10 and a Model 36. Both failed thankfully while training and not in a gunfight. First one was the Model 10 and the armorer was able to get me up and running again to qualify after lunch. It went out of timing and needed a new pawl arm and cylinder star. A few years later my Model 36 had the same out of timing issue but needed to be sent to S&W for repair. The frame pin that held the hammer was also loose. A week later they sent my gun back......so I thought. They decided my gun was beyond repair and sent a new one to me without asking me if I wanted it. The Model 36 was a graduation gift from my parents and saved me during an attempted Grand Larceny Auto and shootout in Brooklyn so it had sentimental value to me. To make matters worse the new gun they sent was not the same. It no longer conformed to same standards and I was not authorized to carry it. I called S&W and they actually built me a new "Old Style" Model 36 with a hammer nose firing pin after they were fazed out for an internal firing pin. More recently they also repaired a customer's .460 Magnum that had internal parts failure but sent back another customer's gun because it was not an easy fix. But I will credit them with sending me all the parts free of charge to do the extensive repair. He is a retired NYC Corrections Officer and did not want another firearm. It was a stainless 9mm but failed due to lack of regular maintenence. Now my Model 10 is out of commission again and needs a replacement hammer nose but is not available and considered obsolete......lol
S&W M&P Shield EZ has a recall for firing without the trigger being pulled. And will do a mag dump like a full auto. Only with no control. Check the website for details.
Bought a new 686 SSR about a year ago. 3/4 of the way through its first box- dead hammer. Took it apart- the hammer spring "head" that connects to the hammer sheered off. 1 off lemon? Maybe. My old duty gun, a 65-3 from 1978 ha s god knows how many rounds through it- still runs. Same for my 19-4 from 1979.
How about forged frames vs. cast? How about doing away with the front lock on the ejector rod? How about the difference -- sometimes in the "noticeable" category and sometimes huge -- between the old and new out-of-box trigger break?
I tend to agree with one exception. I absolutely hate, and I really mean hate the hillary hole lock as S&W installs on revolvers. it is totally unnecessary and extremely unattractive. If a lock is mandated by law then put it on the hammer as a competitor does, NOT in the side of the gun. Also provide a way to disable it so it can never be inadvertently activated in a defensive weapon. After all you don't put those locks in a semi automatic pistol do you.
Wow a really good one, some years ago I bought one of the new 29's, and did so without the brain-eroding research I always put myself under, before purchasing anything. Thank you so much for the video! On another note, will you ever share the secret about this absolute inability to age you gents got? What's it about, com'on... sleeping in the fridge? Formaldehyde for breakfast? Come'on guys, my hair isn't waiting! hahaha! Cheers and Happy Holidays!
I’ve heard it’s only an issue with light weight 357 projectiles because of how the bullet tappers and the speed and others say it won’t happen and others say it happens to all of them with a steady diet of 357.
@@theeasternfront6436 that’s what I’ve heard also. I have a new 686+ and a vintage model 19 square butt pinned and recessed model and I’d like to shoot some 357 in it with out hurting it but mostly it’s a safe queen.
My Lew Horton Smith and Wesson model 624 Combat Special 3 inch throated barrel N Frame is a gem people underestimate the 44 special Factory loads ,and the knock down force they have . it was sub contracted to do trigger job . modern speedloaders with a little practice are auto fast. with a cylinder bevel job i did my self including a bigger drill bit to carefully bevel the timing table between teeth that you cant do on 8 shot cylinder. even though they did a recall on cylinders the cheaper metal got put into the side plates where it didnt matter . its crome molly construction is solid enough to cut down shells of 44 mag up to 240 grain 1500 feet per second and put 100 plus rounds through it . and its still tight . but 44 special is where its at . and yess it shoots 44 special way better than any 44 mag its a race car You would be hard pressed to find its equal let alone a armorer.to dial in a revolver The way the gunsmiths did on mine . I even wrapped the trigger guard on mine without getting hit by blast and throated 3 inch barrel burns all the powder 0 flash on end shooting mags but it did take the hide off trigger finger where it wraps the trigger I shoot nothing but eye slots in ipsca . And the 5 shot guns have a kick the only jiggle I feel is the hammer drop lol
I have old and I have new and I definitely like the old better. Nothing wrong with the new, but the old ones man, you can just feel it in the action that more time was spent on the hand fitting of parts. The wood on the old stocks is much better and truth be told, I haven't had 1 single problem with my 629-2 (Pre-Endurance package). I mean, I'm not looking for the hottest loads, it's a 44 magnum for crying out loud and standard magnum loads are fine and all that's needed. Now I do like to mirror polish my revolvers and when I say mirror polish, I mean mirror polish as in 12-16 hours for a single gun and I've noticed the metal on the newer ones polishes better and quicker for whatever reason. I hate the aesthetics of the darn lock on the new one's but it's not a complete deal breaker as they shoot great. Old is better though because of the amount of time the old one's actually spent in the hands of those old gunsmiths getting everything fit tight and right. It's as if a part of their soul went into those old revolvers.
I just got a Model 65-4 4”. I’ve heard to be careful shooting too much .357 through it because the cones are thinner on the bottom. What does the community say?
I own 13 S&W revolvers. Four are pre MIM and the rest are newer with a couple with MIM but no lock. I mostly shoot the newer revolvers. I love the older ones but I have no issues with the new ones except I would prefer they didn't have the lock. I have 2 newer 610's that are the most accurate handguns I own. If you want a revolver to shoot there is nothing wrong with the newer S&W revolvers in my opinion.
I agree with Steve but for a different reason. It's the carry aspect - why you don't carry 6 rounds in the cylinder for a 6-shooter whose hammer also strikes the primer. Hickok45 explains this perfectly.
That started when Bangor Putna took over S&W and the quality went in the shitter. It's true they've bounced back since then and, for shooting, the new ones are probably better than the old, but for fit, finish, and pure eye appeal, I'll take a pre-BP S&W over any made since.
I bought one of the new 629 .44 mag revolvers and am totally delighted with it. For accuracy it compares well to my original Colt Python. I in particular like the rubber grips that came on it. I have shot some of the "defense" loads they sell that are pretty hot as well as a few boxes of "regular" .44 mag. Even shooting one handed it is very controllable and does not "bite" me. My old and much loved Colt Python was always a bugger with those wood grips when shooting stiff magnum loads. Very very happy with my S&W 629. Hey back to edit my comment. Today I got out the old Python and the new 629 and put some rounds on paper. Just some off hand shooting and I got old eyes but the 629 grouped very near as well as the Python. I would not hesitate to hunt deer with either one with a nod to the .44's bigger bang.
The thing is, in the olden days labor was cheap and technology was expensive. They may not do as much finishing work or hand polishing and finishes on new guns, but with modern metallurgy and computer aided design and machining, new guns are almost certainly a lot stronger. I went to the John Browning museum in Ogden UT, and the man there told me that Browning's first lathes were peddle powered.
I've had a few new Smiths in my hands and I've always found something wrong with them. Smith seems aware of this and has a good service policy but it is not without its shortcomings. I traded in for an 80's 581 and haven't looked back.
In not going to say I disagree. But I will say. The only Smith’s Iva had issues with are the new ones. Clocked barrels. Horrible 20lb trigger pulls. A 442 actually lockup and freeze because of the Hillary hole safety. And a broken firing pin a new 686+. That being said. I have quite a few older Smith’s that need timing jobs. But they have thousands of rounds through them and no broken parts.
I unfortunately do not own any of the older Smith and Wesson's but I do own several of the new. I have the set of Model 69 Combat Magnums, a 329PD, and a 360PD. All are great guns for sure. However the biggest thing I don't like about any new model Smith is the sleeved barrel. The mim parts I can take or leave. Ruger has been using mim parts for years and no one that I know of has accused a ruger of being weak. Lock is an eye sore but I can live with it more because I have to not because I want to. In the end I have to agree, old or new, Smith makes a good revolver.
Bill Ruger's legacy is the insistence upon quality control before a gun with his name leaves the factory. Should one get into the hands of a customer, the managers that knew Bill insist upon making it right so that the Ruger reputation doesn't suffer bad P.R.
I actually think you can go both ways on this. The only mistake people make is putting modern hot loads in older Smiths. Examples you would not shoot Buffalo bore 357 magnum out of a nice model 19 or 66 . But modern Smiths Classic series the new 66 combat magnum or 19 carry comp with new lockup and improved forcing cone with stainless steel barrel you bet. If you want to enjoy your vintage Smiths do a little research and see what loads were used at the time or hand load for them. It will make you feel good knowing that your revolver can still be enjoyed the way it was intended.
The fact that Smith & Wesson still offers the Model 642 and M&P 340 in versions *without* the Hillary hole should tell you all you need to know about that damned thing. Yes, they are very lightweight J-frames for stout cartridges; however, S&W wouldn’t make the no-lock versions unless there was at the very least a potential problem. Steve is correct about the older Model 625 throats being badly over-sized. I have a mid-70s Model 25-2 with throats ranging from .454-.456”. It’s beautiful on the outside but inside the machining marks are so bad you’d think some guy fired from the Vega or Pinto assembly line made it. Unlike Colts, S&W was still making fine revolvers up into the 1990s and some models today are better than older ones. Metal injection molding (MIM) can be used correctly on the right parts. I don’t like MIM hammers and triggers though.
Not mentioning the front of the frame around the forcing cone cracking due to over tightening of the crush fit barrels on the new 29's helps your argument. I'll stick with my P&R'ed M29, it is a tack driver and has been for years. Mim was all about making them cheaper, not better. And the Hilliary hole? Please! If I was looking for a new revolver, Smith would not be the top of the list.
Addendum, the old guy is likely on S&W payroll for touting the current production revolvers are made for shooting while the vintage revolvers are made for looking. My gunsmith would strongly disagree with the armchair, coffee drinking man. Of all the revolvers he's worked in during his career he touts the strength and design of Ruger and S&W prior to the lock.
s&w makes a great product, but i have to give it to the smiths of past. hand fitting and pride of craftsmanship show, your right about modern metals of today, with time comes improvements. unfortunately, money plays a big part in staying in the market, the fewer people to hire the less you have to pay $$$. Mims, and competition from foreign gun mfg. at less than 1/2 the cost for a handgun all plays a factor in production.
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I'll just keep my 1976 S&W Mod 29, 6.5" active for a while longer. Maggy has defended this family for 40 years!
@Tracey Walker ...you had Damn well better have a worthy family member that the 29 can be bequeathed to... Don't allow it to go back into public circulation. 😀
How many rounds through it?
lucky punk, sold mine along with a python in 2002, still kicking myself everyday
Nice! I have the -2
I know it’s impractical, but I wish S&W would make a separate line of their old revolvers with forged parts, pinned & recessed, and with no Hillary hole. I’d be willing to pay a premium for that.
Too bad America is dying! No longer the land of 1911’s, now it’s a Taurus hellscape, poor people deserve it though
Me too.
Yeah, they went ahead and did some "classic" guns, why not take that ALL the way. They'll cost more, but folks will pay (I think....LOL).
Even if they just got rid of the Hitlery Hole, they'd sell better.
Not enough people would.
The whole answer: that damn lock!
Been sending them emails for years please let Smith Wesson hear from you. www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/contact-us
I love the triggers on the old ones. My dad's gun stages beautifully, mine sorta breaks when it feels like it.
I own my fair share of pre-lock/pre-MIM and Post MIM S&Ws, and can say without hesitation that I’d take a pre-lock/pre-MIM any day over a newer S&W, namely for the fit, finish, smoothness and general reliability. A number of my newer S&Ws have had to be returned to the factory for repairs (timing, barrel, fit and finish issues). For heavy shooting or stout loads, I’ll generally pull out the Ruger GP-100 over either generations of S&Ws.
Ive got an old S&WCombat Master Piece. Fine shooting hand gun. Got an old Colt Police Positive too. Both fine revolvers.
My buddys performance center had a timing issue on a cylinder. That should have never left the factory let alone the performance center
I agree 1000%.
The lock is like putting a face tattoo on a supermodel.
Or a nose ring
Maybe, but would you kick her out of bed if the rest of the package was better than even a super model?
Couldn't agree more. Please be sure to tell them yourselves as well. www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/contact-us
On the J and K/L frame, they also need to change the curvature of the frame between the cylinder release and the hammer to accomodate the lock hole, that just ruined the overall look of the revolver. It's like your favorite supermodel is nice everywhere except now her waist is 6 inches bigger.
That comment is like a boomer on a computer.
I believe that the older S&W revolvers were more thoroughly inspected by a skilled human being, by nature of the older build process. Automation economizes the build process and there are less process imperfections, but a higher percentage of imperfections escape detection.
Agreed, well said.
I have to agree with that. The quality control has dropped significantly. In Europe, it is extremely difficult to get a S&W revolver as they are usually sold out and have extremely long delivery times (9 months or longer). When you finally get your revolver and it is still a faulty gun, you have to complain about it and after about 9 months you get it back from the repair shop. This of course discourages a buyer from purchasing a revolver. That's why people here in Austria tend to buy pistols (GLOCK).
@@hanszarkov7807i see a lot of them around in norway but brand new ones have almost doubled in price the last few years and some models may be hard to find in stock
Great point. Fewer errors are made but most of those few make it out to the market without ever being seen by a human.
I think the saddest part is that Taurus, of all companies, found a less gross way to do an internal lock than S&W. I own both and don't get too wound up one way or another, but the way the lock was executed is just downright shameful.
You would expect any manufacturer to improve if they plan on staying in business , sadly in America it’s not always the case ! Cost cutting can have dire consequences , the worst you can do is cut cost and increase the price of a product with less quality , reputation is everything in this business !
I swore I'd never buy a S&W when they aligned with anti-handgun lobbyists way back in the late 80's; when they were sold to a British plumbing comply company... And of course introduced the most useless POS on a firearm in recorded history (a lock on a revolver, of all choices) ... I've held strong but S&W has made it easy honestly...to me S&W is as dead as "colt" which is nothing but a trademark at this point.
Hot/// YEAH,LOOK AT THE COLT PYTHONS,STARTED OUT AS TOTAL JUNK,BRAND NEW OUT OF THE BOX AND WOULDN'T WORK!!!!!!!
@@libtardgunlover762 "Cost cutting is the result of improved technology and manufacturing."
Not always, in fact probably not in most cases. The worst is products on amazon where you buy something that is great, a few years down the line you buy the same thing, either because you want another, or for a friend or relative and it's a complete pile of junk. I have realized that this is an amazon seller (china) strategy. Make something nice, sell it for a while and get good reviews, then replace all the parts/materials with the cheapest you can find after you get good review. If you get negative reviews offer the reviewer another product for free if they change their reviews.
@@libtardgunlover762 Your "handle" says it all. ;-)
I like Steve's approach. The old bluing is far better than new...
You said it, for sure!
I love mine new and old. New ones are strong,smooth and the lock never made me miss a shot.
that's a good comment!!
Did this guy th-cam.com/video/lzKh5Y0TaY0/w-d-xo.html
Brownell's is an industry heavy hitter. Have you ever spoken with Smith and Wesson about how much the overwhelming number of consumers dislike the lock?
You think smith doesn’t know?
I can’t afford the new ones; mine are all 80’s and 70’s and I have no complaints.
Those where the best vintage. Peak engineering, skilled human craftsmanship and metallurgy.
Inherited a pre-model 10 from my grandfather. You won't be finding a double action trigger any better than this ! American made equipment in the late 1940's is hard to equal at any price.
Due fairness to your pre-M10 Military & Police, it's had over@ 70 years of potential use to naturally smooth the lock works. I still agree that pre-lock Smith's are better quality. I recently bought a Model 10-5 and will not part with it until my time on Earth is finished.
A gun like that will last for many lifetimes...it’s sad,technology has improved greatly since then but the quality of products has plummeted..just look at all the old TVs,electrical appliances,power tools,cars,etc that are still going strong today..these days when you buy a new freezer,oven,tv,air conditioner,etc you are lucky if lasts a decade
I have an M27, a 686+ and 2 M19. I take all 4 to the range. When one starts getting hot I put it down and pickup another. I will admit that I generally shoot .38 Special through the K Frames. I just love the L & N Frames with full magnum loads; but then I love any gun that throws such a fireball that at close range it'll cauterize the exit wound. Great video, please keep them coming!
Another video ended with a syncro-slurp. Good review. Thanks for the information.
I like the look of my old S&W's. I load 44 cal, 200gr hollow-points to about 1200fps never had an issue with performance. In 44 or 45 you don't need full house loads to hunt. Full house loads will eventually loosen up most revolvers.
I don’t love the locks, but I’ve never had trouble out of them. As far as I’m concerned, I’d rather shoot a new one loose than a classic anyway.
I can’t get past the aesthetics of the sleeved barrels on new Smith & Wesson revolvers. Sorry, I don’t know if it’s all models or just some, but I just don’t like the look.
Great, well thought out video. I agree. Thanks!
the m1917 revolvers are pretty darn well built. I've never seen a revolver more well crafted than a smith and wesson in long colt .45 from end of 1890s.
The S&W New Century "Triple Lock" revolvers were so well crafted that Smith couldn't even afford to keep making them for more than a few years.
@@ostiariusalpha That's really interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Great video, gentlemen, and I thank you both. Here’s an example to prove your “booth great” thesis. I own three Smith, f0ve-inch barrel, N Frame .357 magnums: a wonderful 27-2 and two Special Edition 627s. They’re all great, all can easily outshoot me, all are very well manufactured and designed, exhibiting the highest accuracy, quality, durability and reliability. I frequently carry a 627, but I always admire the 27-2.
I think the soul of the gun leaks out of the key-hole, so it's old school for me.
Barrel canting and the lock is a pretty big problem with the new ones for me.
No doubt in my mind - if the prices are the same and there is a new Smith and an old (pinned/recessed) Smith in the gun store's case, I will most certainly buy the vintage revolver.
I got a old model 10-6 in mint..That gun is niceeeee..
Bought a "newer" 629 , with the lock, and oiled it up and while dry firing it, to break it in, just like I have done on multiple firearms in the past, and it completely locked up. Could not pull the trigger back or single action cock it. Took it in to warranty center and when I went to pick it up the smith showed me the tiny internal MIM parts that broke. Very glad it happened while dry firing and not in a self defense situation.
I do not think MIM parts are as good as the old forged ones even though they say they are better now.
Had the same happen with my 629 and 640PRO.
Replace with TK CUSTOM parts, which you can polish. Not advised to try to polish MIM parts for trigger jobs.
Thank you for this video. I own 6 S&W Revolver's so far. I own both older and newer models. I agree with you, my biggest gripe about the newer models is the lock.
I handled a 27-9 recently. The bright finish was superb. The rifling was kinda C+. Shallow, and not a sharp corner anywhere on the lands. Looks like a new J Frame where they soften the rifling so as not to build pressure, allowing the +P rating.
Every new S&W I've bought in the last decade I've ended up selling very quickly after shooting ...just not as good as my older S&Ws. I've not given up on S&W but Ive stopped actively shopping for them when I'm looking for a revolver.
👍
I am so disappointed with these guys. In one video they lost all credibility in my book.
Smith & Wesson QC personnel are asleep on the job!! No doubt about it!!
I love my sw wheelguns, but take issue with the excessive barrel cylinder gap on some of my new ones. Case in point, 686-6 had 007" gap on left side of gun, and 013" gap on right side. (yes, I measured both sides, because it blew so violently, even with 38 rounds) I sent it back to sw, they replaced the 6" barrel and slicked up the action. Well done and thanks to sw.👍
I like the new revolvers, except for the MIM parts, and I hate the lock. The older revolvers generally had better triggers.
I like the quality and finish on the older S&W.
Great video! Comparing the craftsmanship to better and stronger materials is a great video for brownells. Lots to consider when purchasing this day and age. Definitely love a model 29 someday 😉 thanks for the info!
I have a 29-2 .44mag with the 6.5in barrel that was made in 1972. It was my grandfather's gun. He gave it to me in 1990. Beautiful gun. I have never been able to bring myself to shoot it.
Thank you both for your advice. Great Series.
Go sell an old and new one of the same model and I think you'll find your answer.
Indeed
I own an old model 66 And a new 629 and I love them both. Best revolver triggers I have ever used, the 44magnum 629 is SCARY smooth in single action, you just THINK of pulling the trigger and it goes off!
When I was still working for Oshman's more than a decade ago we got the special run of satin finished, high polished cylinder 5" full lugged barrel model 25 in .45 Colt & I am STILL bashing my head against available solid objects for not picking one up when I had the chance. It was without a doubt the bet fitted & finished revolver short of the 1980's era Colt Custom Shop Python. That Smith, which was running under $700 at the time, if my addled brain recollects correctly, was AMASING across the board. Oh the folly's of youth. I didn't even mind the Lock, the gun was that gorgeous & properly tuned.
Got a Model 13-1(P&R'd) and 29-10...I'm right in that zone and couldn't agree more.
My recent S&W purchases have been all trash. I won't buy another one...nor will my friend. Both have been back multiple times to S&W repair...and still not fixed.
I like the Smith .38 model 10-6, heavy barrel. Would you consider doing a commentary on this gun. Semper Fi
I sure do liked the prices back in the days.
What I paid currently for my S&W M66, back in the days bought me three S&W's, my M29, M686 and a M4506
I still wish they recessed cylinders, the barrel pins I don't care for so much but loading up my pre-28 highway patrolman feels cleaner than the newer guns.
Older Smith revolvers usually have really smooth triggers from being shot for decades. New Smiths, like any other new handgun, have stiff triggers. A trigger job or a case of ammo can go a long ways to smoothing them out... That is, if you can afford to shoot your new Smith after your procurement of ammo!
My main concern/complaint is the Lawyer-inspired locking design. To me, that's 99% of stiff trigger problem! De-lawyer the design and the problems go away!!!
Great video Love the revolvers Thank you
The locks don't seem to bother me all that much except for the looks. When my children were young an open cylinder and a Master padlock worked for me
I purchased an older Smith in .41 Magnum. It has the two "E's" for a pistol , excellent to shoot,and expensive to shoot.
I sold a very early model 58 about 3 years ago , “S” prefix serial number which I believe was an early production , Had the diamond checkered serial number match grips I should have probably kept it ,seeing what they’re bringing now , live and learn
Sent more customer's larger hard hitting caliber guns back to smith for lock issues . Some fit and finish on the newer guns were terrible, check out some S&W forums.
I have heard the same issue.
I agree with the newer revolvers have the correct size throats and are more consistent. This really matters for good accuracy.
I purchased a Smith Thunder ranch model 22-4 , the 45acp ,new , when it was first introduced , 30 rounds in , cylinder latch falls off , Locktite repaired that , 50 rounds later , trigger return spring breaks , , had it repaired by a police department armorer (40years experience), the bluing is patchy , looks like something I’d do , but it has the thunder ranch logo on the grips , all of this for about 800.00 , back in about 2007 (don’t remember exactly ) , very disappointing . I’ve never fired it since .
I wish they’d bring the 8 3/8 barrel back
There's as much new demand for the classic 8 3/8" gun barrel as there is for the Buntline Special.
I can relate. My S&W Model 64-7 out shot my classic 64-1. Both still great guns. I carry the 64-7 concealed regularly.
Any gun that goes boom , is a good GUN.
My dad has some old Smiths, some with no dash some with a low number after the dash. They are very beautiful and they shoot amazing. I have a 500 S&W and that gun has a nice trigger, its more accurate than me, and its well built. I shoot my new smith but I lust after the old ones.
I carried a Smith & Wesson model 66 (357 magnum) for many years thousands of rounds qualifying, and practice. I never had any problems. But, I have heard of some with forcing cone cracking with a steady diet of the 357 Magnum hot loads. (I"ll stick to my model 66, Very smooth from years of shooting)
I had both of my S&W revolvers fail on me. A 1986 Model 10 and a Model 36. Both failed thankfully while training and not in a gunfight. First one was the Model 10 and the armorer was able to get me up and running again to qualify after lunch. It went out of timing and needed a new pawl arm and cylinder star. A few years later my Model 36 had the same out of timing issue but needed to be sent to S&W for repair. The frame pin that held the hammer was also loose. A week later they sent my gun back......so I thought. They decided my gun was beyond repair and sent a new one to me without asking me if I wanted it. The Model 36 was a graduation gift from my parents and saved me during an attempted Grand Larceny Auto and shootout in Brooklyn so it had sentimental value to me. To make matters worse the new gun they sent was not the same. It no longer conformed to same standards and I was not authorized to carry it. I called S&W and they actually built me a new "Old Style" Model 36 with a hammer nose firing pin after they were fazed out for an internal firing pin.
More recently they also repaired a customer's .460 Magnum that had internal parts failure but sent back another customer's gun because it was not an easy fix.
But I will credit them with sending me all the parts free of charge to do the extensive repair.
He is a retired NYC Corrections Officer and did not want another firearm. It was a stainless 9mm but failed due to lack of regular maintenence.
Now my Model 10 is out of commission again and needs a replacement hammer nose but is not available and considered obsolete......lol
S&W M&P Shield EZ has a recall for firing without the trigger being pulled. And will do a mag dump like a full auto. Only with no control. Check the website for details.
Damn,that’s a horrible accident just waiting to happen
Bought a new 686 SSR about a year ago. 3/4 of the way through its first box- dead hammer. Took it apart- the hammer spring "head" that connects to the hammer sheered off. 1 off lemon? Maybe. My old duty gun, a 65-3 from 1978 ha s god knows how many rounds through it- still runs. Same for my 19-4 from 1979.
I like my 629 no dash and my 27-2. Both habe 8 3/8 inch Barrel. Amazing Guns. Greetings from Austria
Good Video!!!!!! I always take any New Revolver to my Gunsmith and HAVE THAT DAMN LOCK (HILLARY HOLE) REMOVED!!!!!!
Why? There is nothing wrong with the lock. Just whining about it.
How about forged frames vs. cast? How about doing away with the front lock on the ejector rod? How about the difference -- sometimes in the "noticeable" category and sometimes huge -- between the old and new out-of-box trigger break?
Oh, yeah,,,, who pays attention to that stuff anyway? S&W can’t make 50 cents if you buy an old classic S&W revolver,.Choices..LOL 😂 ...
Want all that? Then step up and pay. Shooter whine yet when checkbook time comes, wimp out.
@@WALTERBROADDUS ->I’m thinking he meant we got all of that great stuff on the old S&W pistols, but not the new ones.
Smith makes a cast frame?
Really helpful! Thanks!
Just got a 27-2 357 mag and this is nice to confirm my acquisition.
That lock is so gross.
yep tell them to remove it. I will not buy another smith with a lock. www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/contact-us
It’s yucky
I tend to agree with one exception. I absolutely hate, and I really mean hate the hillary hole lock as S&W installs on revolvers. it is totally unnecessary and extremely unattractive. If a lock is mandated by law then put it on the hammer as a competitor does, NOT in the side of the gun. Also provide a way to disable it so it can never be inadvertently activated in a defensive weapon. After all you don't put those locks in a semi automatic pistol do you.
Wow a really good one, some years ago I bought one of the new 29's, and did so without the brain-eroding research I always put myself under, before purchasing anything. Thank you so much for the video!
On another note, will you ever share the secret about this absolute inability to age you gents got? What's it about, com'on... sleeping in the fridge? Formaldehyde for breakfast? Come'on guys, my hair isn't waiting! hahaha! Cheers and Happy Holidays!
My JM 625 runs sooooooo smooth. Eats everything super tight, super smooth. Wifey calls it Bertha. 👍😎🤘
I can agree with that....
What about cracking the forcing cones on older k frame smiths when shooting 357?
I’ve heard it’s only an issue with light weight 357 projectiles because of how the bullet tappers and the speed and others say it won’t happen and others say it happens to all of them with a steady diet of 357.
It happened. The forcing cone was shaved slightly, made for a weak spot. I have heard so long as you dont run 125g 357s you are fine.
@@theeasternfront6436 that’s what I’ve heard also. I have a new 686+ and a vintage model 19 square butt pinned and recessed model and I’d like to shoot some 357 in it with out hurting it but mostly it’s a safe queen.
I love these two
My Lew Horton Smith and Wesson model 624 Combat Special 3 inch throated barrel N Frame is a gem
people underestimate the 44 special Factory loads ,and the knock down force they have .
it was sub contracted to do trigger job .
modern speedloaders with a little practice are auto fast.
with a cylinder bevel job i did my self including a bigger drill bit to carefully bevel the timing
table between teeth that you cant do on 8 shot cylinder.
even though they did a recall on cylinders the cheaper metal got put into the side plates
where it didnt matter .
its crome molly construction is solid enough to cut down shells of 44 mag up to 240 grain
1500 feet per second and put 100 plus rounds through it .
and its still tight .
but 44 special is where its at .
and yess it shoots 44 special way better than any 44 mag its a race car
You would be hard pressed to find its equal let alone a armorer.to dial in a revolver
The way the gunsmiths did on mine .
I even wrapped the trigger guard on mine without getting hit by blast and throated 3 inch barrel
burns all the powder 0 flash on end shooting mags
but it did take the hide off trigger finger where it wraps the trigger
I shoot nothing but eye slots in ipsca .
And the 5 shot guns have a kick
the only jiggle I feel is the hammer drop lol
I have old and I have new and I definitely like the old better. Nothing wrong with the new, but the old ones man, you can just feel it in the action that more time was spent on the hand fitting of parts. The wood on the old stocks is much better and truth be told, I haven't had 1 single problem with my 629-2 (Pre-Endurance package). I mean, I'm not looking for the hottest loads, it's a 44 magnum for crying out loud and standard magnum loads are fine and all that's needed.
Now I do like to mirror polish my revolvers and when I say mirror polish, I mean mirror polish as in 12-16 hours for a single gun and I've noticed the metal on the newer ones polishes better and quicker for whatever reason. I hate the aesthetics of the darn lock on the new one's but it's not a complete deal breaker as they shoot great.
Old is better though because of the amount of time the old one's actually spent in the hands of those old gunsmiths getting everything fit tight and right. It's as if a part of their soul went into those old revolvers.
..just bought a 1977 era mod 66 with a 2 1/2 in bbl..pinned, not recessed..for $450 from a fellow collector
I like these videos, but the sound levels on the voices is a bit low in this one.
Thank goodness someone else noticed too
I was worried my hearing had just gotten worse
What is your opinion on the new, small, 69 .44 mag for durability? That is a lot of oomph in a small package.
What about the 25-5? I inherited one from my dad and it looks great but I haven't shot it for groups
I just got a Model 65-4 4”. I’ve heard to be careful shooting too much .357 through it because the cones are thinner on the bottom. What does the community say?
Short answer is hell yes.
I own 13 S&W revolvers. Four are pre MIM and the rest are newer with a couple with MIM but no lock. I mostly shoot the newer revolvers. I love the older ones but I have no issues with the new ones except I would prefer they didn't have the lock. I have 2 newer 610's that are the most accurate handguns I own. If you want a revolver to shoot there is nothing wrong with the newer S&W revolvers in my opinion.
The lock is literally my only issue with new Smiths.
I agree with Steve but for a different reason.
It's the carry aspect - why you don't carry 6 rounds in the cylinder for a 6-shooter whose hammer also strikes the primer. Hickok45 explains this perfectly.
That started when Bangor Putna took over S&W and the quality went in the shitter. It's true they've bounced back since then and, for shooting, the new ones are probably better than the old, but for fit, finish, and pure eye appeal, I'll take a pre-BP S&W over any made since.
I bought one of the new 629 .44 mag revolvers and am totally delighted with it. For accuracy it compares well to my original Colt Python. I in particular like the rubber grips that came on it. I have shot some of the "defense" loads they sell that are pretty hot as well as a few boxes of "regular" .44 mag. Even shooting one handed it is very controllable and does not "bite" me. My old and much loved Colt Python was always a bugger with those wood grips when shooting stiff magnum loads. Very very happy with my S&W 629. Hey back to edit my comment. Today I got out the old Python and the new 629 and put some rounds on paper. Just some off hand shooting and I got old eyes but the 629 grouped very near as well as the Python. I would not hesitate to hunt deer with either one with a nod to the .44's bigger bang.
What about the newer barrel set up compared to the older models?
Hey, I got to say. Nice haircut! Looks good
The thing is, in the olden days labor was cheap and technology was expensive. They may not do as much finishing work or hand polishing and finishes on new guns, but with modern metallurgy and computer aided design and machining, new guns are almost certainly a lot stronger. I went to the John Browning museum in Ogden UT, and the man there told me that Browning's first lathes were peddle powered.
Great video
I've had a few new Smiths in my hands and I've always found something wrong with them. Smith seems aware of this and has a good service policy but it is not without its shortcomings. I traded in for an 80's 581 and haven't looked back.
Many of the models ( 28 for instance ) are no longer made. Being fond of the beefy model 28, I have to buy used - which, for me, is not an issue.
In not going to say I disagree. But I will say. The only Smith’s Iva had issues with are the new ones. Clocked barrels. Horrible 20lb trigger pulls. A 442 actually lockup and freeze because of the Hillary hole safety. And a broken firing pin a new 686+. That being said. I have quite a few older Smith’s that need timing jobs. But they have thousands of rounds through them and no broken parts.
MIM parts?
I unfortunately do not own any of the older Smith and Wesson's but I do own several of the new. I have the set of Model 69 Combat Magnums, a 329PD, and a 360PD. All are great guns for sure. However the biggest thing I don't like about any new model Smith is the sleeved barrel. The mim parts I can take or leave. Ruger has been using mim parts for years and no one that I know of has accused a ruger of being weak. Lock is an eye sore but I can live with it more because I have to not because I want to. In the end I have to agree, old or new, Smith makes a good revolver.
Bill Ruger's legacy is the insistence upon quality control before a gun with his name leaves the factory. Should one get into the hands of a customer, the managers that knew Bill insist upon making it right so that the Ruger reputation doesn't suffer bad P.R.
I actually think you can go both ways on this. The only mistake people make is putting modern hot loads in older Smiths. Examples you would not shoot Buffalo bore 357 magnum out of a nice model 19 or 66 . But modern Smiths Classic series the new 66 combat magnum or 19 carry comp with new lockup and improved forcing cone with stainless steel barrel you bet. If you want to enjoy your vintage Smiths do a little research and see what loads were used at the time or hand load for them. It will make you feel good knowing that your revolver can still be enjoyed the way it was intended.
The fact that Smith & Wesson still offers the Model 642 and M&P 340 in versions *without* the Hillary hole should tell you all you need to know about that damned thing. Yes, they are very lightweight J-frames for stout cartridges; however, S&W wouldn’t make the no-lock versions unless there was at the very least a potential problem.
Steve is correct about the older Model 625 throats being badly over-sized. I have a mid-70s Model 25-2 with throats ranging from .454-.456”. It’s beautiful on the outside but inside the machining marks are so bad you’d think some guy fired from the Vega or Pinto assembly line made it.
Unlike Colts, S&W was still making fine revolvers up into the 1990s and some models today are better than older ones. Metal injection molding (MIM) can be used correctly on the right parts. I don’t like MIM hammers and triggers though.
are the S & W EZ shields cracked recalled hammers mim ?
Not mentioning the front of the frame around the forcing cone cracking due to over tightening of the crush fit barrels on the new 29's helps your argument. I'll stick with my P&R'ed M29, it is a tack driver and has been for years. Mim was all about making them cheaper, not better. And the Hilliary hole? Please! If I was looking for a new revolver, Smith would not be the top of the list.
Addendum, the old guy is likely on S&W payroll for touting the current production revolvers are made for shooting while the vintage revolvers are made for looking.
My gunsmith would strongly disagree with the armchair, coffee drinking man. Of all the revolvers he's worked in during his career he touts the strength and design of Ruger and S&W prior to the lock.
Jerry Miculek doesn't have any problem with new S&W revolvers!
Best to ya',,,,!
What I didn’t here you talk that much about the trigger. The new trigger isn’t as smooth as the old ones or as light personal opinion.
I know this isn’t true for all of them, but man I got lucky on mine. I would put it against any of the older rigs. It is fantastic.
s&w makes a great product, but i have to give it to the smiths of past. hand fitting and pride of craftsmanship show, your right about modern metals of today, with time comes improvements. unfortunately, money plays a big part in staying in the market, the fewer people to hire the less you have to pay $$$. Mims, and competition from foreign gun mfg. at less than 1/2 the cost for a handgun all plays a factor in production.