Black Belt Dan Levels and Elitism | ART OF ONE DOJO
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 เม.ย. 2021
- How do you achieve more black belt ranks and how does elitism impact the martial arts? Today we're taking on two viewer member questions and discussing the process of achieving higher dan ranks and how the attitude of a practitioner can have an effect on a school or art.
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I find the elitism to be the worst among people who don't spar, it's a lot easier to act tough when you don't actually have to back up your words with actions,
Plus people who spar generally know that seniority doesn't always equal superiority, there are tons of people who are just good at fighting, learn faster, are younger and in better shape, etc.
Got that right my friend. Oss.
The longer I train, the more I realize how useless elitism and politics are. There's always something new for me to learn, and I can learn from anybody.
Sadly that is true. There are more and more politics in the martial arts today. Oss. Master K, MA
To go beyond super saiyan. That is the goal.
I too look at a black belt like a college student. All that's missing is student debt and parties
Parties can happen, just not in the actual hall. I am finding this a great way to bullied friendship and hope that my son finds this as well
Teaching accomplishes a lot the positive things.
- You're giving back to the art by helping initiate newer practitioners. You were new once too.
- You're cementing and refining your own technique and knowledge by learning how to impart information.
- You're learning from others' mistakes and seeing new angles or possibilities through observation and correction/instruction- everyone does things slightly differently and you can see something new or an opening you'd not noticed before that you can add to your toolbox.
- You're helping build camaraderie in your school, which has a number of benefits.
Name-dropping and acting like you're better than silly colored belts is absolutely doing yourself a disservice. Word gets a around, and people won't want to train with you. Being an asshole does very little for you. Mat time is mat time, regardless of the color of the belt you're training or training with. In fact, I'd argue that training with a "lower rack" colored belt is closer to training for an encounter with an untrained, unrefined street attacker. That is also very useful training.
This was a fire sermon today brother
In what I train in for a style, service is the number one qualifier for promotion in the hierarchy of what and how I serve. As a matter of fact, that is what I call the third reason why people train because the first is for self-defense only, the second is for sport, and the third is service. However, here is the biggest drawback of our reason and that is it can be downright deadly since we hold very hard onto Chugi aka Duty and Loyalty from the Code of Bushido.
Me personally, I'm gonna choose not to advance to the other degrees - I just wanna keep wearing my plain old black belt and continue training without end! ✊🥋
BB only means u know the basics of ur Art!
I love instructors who say “this is the only way to do it”.
That is definitely part of it, part of it is ego and wanting to be the secret expert. It does nothing but poison the arts.
Generally speaking, now, 5th degree represents your maximum physical level. Above that, it is what you give back to the art for what it gave to you.
I agree with you after 5th Dan and being a master, I believe everything after that is more political than anything else.
@@jakmak52 Perhaps, if used in a good sense such as being wise and sagacious, although many times it doesn't play out that way.
Great video Mr. Dan. My current Sensei is "only" a 3rd degree black belt, but that is mostly because he broke away from his association a while ago and hasn't tried to promote since. My first Sensei was a 6th degree black belt at the time (currently 9th degree). Despite the differences in their formal ranking in their respective styles, I view them as equally skilled teachers and practitioners of their respective arts. The only difference is one decided to keep promoting while the other didn't. I learned a lot from my first Sensei and continue to learn a lot from my second (going for my Sho-dan this Fall). People put way too much emphasis on belt rankings and not enough on the actual skill of the practitioner or teacher. Like you mentioned, Funakoshi was "only" a 5th degree black belt, but I want to see the person who wouldn't call him a master.
Realizing this is an old thread; sorry to bump it folk's feeds. Just felt compelled to comment as it's continually a relevant topic. Presently on my journey from 1st to 2nd Dan - I love your high school & college analogy. Achieving 1st Dan was challenging and certainly an achievement of a life-long goal. But I learned in the VERY NEXT class period - things had changed. Like graduating high school, now the real training had begun. And with each intermediate test between Dan levels - curriculum has been more harshly graded, fitness tested continually, and sparring given increased emphasis. As many have said - it doesn't get any easier, you just get better.
As for pride stuff - where I study, elitism is simply not tolerated. I came in 51 yrs old, +50 lbs vs now. I thought at the very least, teenagers would be poking fun behind my back for being old & fat. Instead - they showed only great respect. We even train together, even though in most cases they are far more agile. People's poor perceptions of the arts, means great change is slow. Working from the inside, we are ambassadors for the true spirit of the arts we practice. From someone greying but still in the game, thank you sincerely.
I love this reply, thank you!
A great topic of conversation truly enjoyed it because you’re very right .
I used to think of belts as degrees and accomplishments. Now I think of them as mile markers on the journey.
To be fair what's a journey without the scenery and souvenirs?
RE: Elitism in martial arts
Mr Dan pointed out some of the glaring examples -- especially the loud mouth keyboarding trolls who try to pump themselves up by putting other styles down calling them "bullshido" because it does not fit in their narrow minded scope of martial arts.
There is another type of elitism in martial arts where there was a commentary at the Karate Dojo WaKu channel in a post titled, "What I HATE About Karate Culture In Japan"
In the video, Yusuke Nagano talks about how as a more modern and liberal Japanese, raised for many years in the U.S., that he has conflicting thoughts about the patriarchical nature in Japanese culture and in karate where you obey the head instructor unconditionally even if the power structure is abusive.
It's really hard to judge another culture's ideologies and beliefs. What may be wrong by our standards may be perfectly normal by another culture's standards. In many Asian martial arts, for example, the head instructor will only teach his senior students and they, in turn, disseminate the information to lower ranks. For example, although (Y)Ip Man is typically credited as Bruce Lee's wing chun teacher, Lee, who only had about 1.5 years of formal training in wing chun but credited as a fast learner, was taught primarily by senior instructor Wong Shun Leung.
That would be unheard of in an American martial arts academy and it would lose student enrollment awful fast if the head instructor was that aloof and would be thought of as elitist.
In addition, many martial arts styles maintain a military type order where hierarchy and rank are maintained so there are grey areas where you can consider it elitism, or is it tradition?
I've seen both sides. I've taken traditional martial arts where the head instructor was exalted and treated like a demi-god and, in one case, acted like one, to more modern martial arts where things are more casual and your instructor is more like your buddy helping you out. Aside from the one extreme case I think there are good and bad points to both. I do appreciate the respect and formal etiquette of many of the traditional Japanese systems. I think it conveys good values especially in young children. I also appreciate the more casual nature of modern kickboxing and BJJ clubs where you call the instructor by their first name.
And those last sentiments are why I love your channel. Martial Arts are awesome and inspiring. All of them.
Thank you! I have to ask...is your name a reference to Five Swords?
I was having a discussion with someone last week and I said something along the lines of “if I owned a boxing gym, no matter if you’re the top ranked, the champion or even a beginner at the bottom of the barrel EVERYONE is carrying the spit bucket at a certain point.” Cause it’s important to always remember where you came from to remember how far you’ve come and to remind you that someone is just beginning that journey.
Bro you are awesome! The positivity you bring is what we need in martial arts. I've come from an elitist martial arts school and it sucks to see. Now I train in Kung fu where there are no ranks, it's about you. And that's how martial arts in my opinion should be. Keep doing what your doing sir! 👍🙏
Good video! 👍🏽
I’m loving this sermon and Q&A to learn so much. I still hope you get to do videos on Drunken Fist and the concept of bunkai in karate or other martial arts
Well said My Friend !
Another great video !
OSU 🙏
For us blackballed essentially is when you’re actually a student. It’s when you really begin learning. Until then you basically learn nothing more than foundational techniques. You are a potential student. And I say potential student because you really don’t start learning until you get your black belt. That’s when you start to understand and comprehend at a whole new level.
Great video thank you.
Awesome! I agree 100% There is no place for elitism in the martial arts! I started 55 years ago and at age 62 I have worn out more black belts than I care to remember. However, these days I prefer to think of myself as "rankless". I train because that's what I do and if people feel that they can learn something from me, great. If not, that's great too. I will continue to train (and teach) and learn from wherever I can - I don't give a toss what "rank" the person is that I'm learning from :)
Great clip.
I’ve spared against a couple of Black Belts when I was a Green Belt. I lost one, beat two. American Goyu, Aaron Banks System out of NYC. I miss it very much, but I’m in my 60’s. I still stretch, but Incan never achieve any sustained looseness. I would love to take Kenpo, but no schools are near me.
awesome video again Mr. Dan. I personally look forward to helping the lower and Kyu ranks as it helps me to become better, learn from my mistakes and to learn again. I feel so good to give back to my art and school and it is an indescribable feeling. When I first walked into my school back in the summer of 1992 everyone was willing to help me so why wouldn’t I help someone else in return...👍🏾
And that's exactly the attitude we should have!
The belt grading system was invented by Jigoro Kano, who was not only the founder of Judo, but also an educator as well. He wanted his students to see their progress, as well as to learn Judo in a systematic way. It was later on adopted by Karate and Aikido.
In the past, traditional Japanese martial arts school award certifications or licenses. You won't be allowed to say that you are a member of a school unless you complete the course; because people actually use their licenses to make a living, either being employed as a samurai, or an instructor.
This is why there are countless parodies of Japanese corporate culture as just another form of feudalism, where executives are samurai serving their daimyo for a salary.
I believe the founders of modern Budo wanted to make their art more democratic, but they had to work with the cultural constraints of Japanese society.
You encapsulated perfectly with your analogy of school, university, etc academics, as to how ranking throughout the various belts systems in martial arts work, in accordance to what they represent. Too many times skeptics, proclaim that belts are useless, along with their ranking, levels of progression, representation in a martial arts system. Often arguing that it is not as if in real life, outside the dojo or on the street in a fight the other person is going to care about such things. While it is true going by your schooling analogy, no one walks around the streets telling people, to take their intellect serious, because they have completed high school, a bachelors, masters or PhD in terms of their education. Also in schools no ribbons or plaques are handed at the end of each year level of study completion, just a primary or secondary school certificate completion, or at university degrees' certificates completions.
So in martial arts by contrast in most systems of self defense, belts are awarded along the way, as if grade one, grade two, grade three, four, five and so forth, were to be given a ribbon with a number corresponding to the completion of that year level, were to be physically and materialistically to be handed out.
I often say that martial arts ranks are similar to military progression, rank level displays. Soldiers with a ranked title or position, have it manifested in their uniforms, as do pilots, navy personnel and so forth. So while belts colours and ranks do not necessarily mean, or are proof that we are all elite martial artists, or the most lethal, elite level combatants, they do exemplify time spent dedicated to learning and attempting to master such a system of self defense.
I unfortunately have seen people exploit the ranking system, where as you mentioned Sensei Dan, unscrupulous individuals awarding themselves their own dans, or hopping from organisation to organisation, or even belonging to two or organisations, provided each organisation that they join, yields them another dan on their belt, instead of having truly earned it, by testing for it. I agree with master Jeff Speakman, that no matter what high level of black belt ranking we have achieved, that we should get tested just like anyone else in the art, regardless of the belt level and colour, be it white, blue yellow, green, etc. While as seniors we should not undermine the lower ranked students, the lower ranked students, should also equally respect and be humble in their conduct towards others and their seniors. Last week we had to pull a novice in their place, as I was teaching a beginner how to tie their belt properly and nearly, at which point this other yellow belt individual, rudely and intrusively said that if someone wants to learn how to tie their belt, to just jump on TH-cam and look it up, yet he ironically had his belt tied unevenly, also with an ugly knot! Then they also argue back with other instructors, telling them that they do things their own way, because they used to learn another martial art and what not. So in the end our Shihan pulled them aside and told them to just keep their mouth shut and do as they are instructed, when it comes to fighting, then sure, do whatever might work for you. Awesome topic yet again Sensei Dan, Osu!🇲🇽🇦🇺🙏🥋
Love the new intro. Very slick 🙂👍
Thanks!
I was very bad with my ego several years ago, not that I thought I was better then lower belts I actually loved training and helping them, it was more like (example) if I was a brown belt or whatever and there were other belts of that colour I wanted to be the best and strongest of that bunch. I feel much more mellow and humble these days.
Thank you so much. That is why I teach for free. I teach for the knowledge
On the topic of working with colored belts, our system has a very fun idea set that once you teach black belt, you go back and work with beginners as a black belt. Not only does that help the beginners see what the technique is supposed to look like or how it's adapted, it shows the black belts that there's always something more to learn. My instructor tells this same line over and over, and it's that "of you stop trying to better yourself, you're not being a black belt" and that applies to more than just the martial arts
I can see that 5th degree Dan could be the PhD..
1st Dan = High School Diploma
2nd Dan = Associates Degree
3rd Dan = Bachelors Degree
4th Dan = Masters Degree
5th Dan = Philosophers Doctorate
Great video, another saying in Kenpo is "it's not what rank you are or how many years you been training it's how many actual training hours you have on the mat that counts."
I totally agree with your answer
Awesome video topic again Dan Sensei! 🙂👍
It is true that many martial arts have areas (in the black belt ranks) which are seemingly lacking further knowledge. After all, there are so many black belt ranks in many different martial arts (maybe too many). Politics play into this equation unfortunately.
...but every practitioner is responsible for their own continued growth. Don't be complacent or believe that you have attained the apex of your training. If one reaches a plateau, only through continued practice, diligence, and study can one hope to expand the horizons of their craft. If you don't believe there is anything else to learn in a particular art...it may be time to expand your horizons by taking another art... so as to add to ones knowledge base. In martial arts, evolution is necessary. Expand or perish.
It's important to always keep the student mindset.
Elitism in MA is one of those things that has seeped into the fabric of most students after a while doing any style. It's unfortunate for sure but a black belt means nothing if the one who wears it is doing so with no honor. That doesn't mean something archaic, there's honor in mentoring, helping and showing the lower belts that black is often times the beginning. Major side note: Black belts mean very little in life to most people. AND just cause you can do all the Kihon and Kata you want, it doesn't mean you can't catch hands and feet. People really need to take a good look at themselves and check their egos for sure... Anyway, good video! :) Positivity!
If you are a black belt and you refuse to work with people that are under you.. why are you there??? For you to get where you are at with that black belt you did not do it by yourself... you are so right mr Dan.. just a little 2 years of my background and kenpo.. everyday I wish I could spend more time learning more about kenpo.. I was told about the sub level 5 training everyday of my life I still wish I could have went through that
Again I must say that I am very proud to wear a black belt . I worked extremely hard to earn it . It was three years before testing . I have been training for around 15 years at this time trying to be prepared to test for 2nd Dan. As far as belt elitism in rank I would suggest reading Tom Lower's old books on this issue. He speaks a lot on it .
i think this is the key point for getting a black belt that most people don't realize.. the black belt is essentially you know the basics..
Exactly this. The only exception really is BJJ, where their purple belt is the equivalent of a black belt in other systems. It takes 5-7 years to get, they have all the curriculum at that point and they spend time after that teaching and refining their techniques. Their first degree black belt is closer to a 3rd degree in other arts. But yes, I agree with what you said and many people don't realize that.
We have 2 brown belt and 1 purple belt instructors at my BJJ school, and one purple belt and 2 blue belt students that we train with. But for the rest of us, including me, we're all white belts with varying lengths of time in it. It's an interesting dynamic, as we all know we suck, but a few of us are looking to stick around and improve the spread of ability at our school. But otherwise, there's not really much elitism from my instructors, as they know that BJJ is hard and pretty unforgiving for beginners.
Great comments!
art of one dojo so I got two options Option 1 I become a martial artist who knows six martial arts styles that are good and effective and self-defense street fighting and work in combat sport MMA which are Sanda kyokushin karate Taekwondo ITF Muay Thai savate and the combat sport these 6 styles have their own combat sport
Thank you
Talking with David Chambers many years ago, (founder of Dragon Times and now Fighting Arts magazine), he pointed out that even among the noted high-ranking Japanese and Okinawan instructors who do seminars all over the country, there is an unspoken hierarchy and respect. He suggested that to eliminate the egos of all of the elite Masters, we should put them all in a room together, not to fight, but to simply share and exchange information. When the exchange was over it would be very clear who's who in the zoo.
I believe the line between using lineage to filter out a McDojo or a Bullshido school vs. using it as a c**k measuring contest is a very thin line.
When I talk about using "lineage" as a means of deciding which martial art/dojo to try, I do not go in thinking some art is better than others. I use lineage to trace whether or not an instructor is a genuine instructor vs. what I call a "cereal box" black belt.
I do not use lineage to determine if any instruction is superior to another art/dojo, but rather to simply see if an instructor is worth following.
I took over my Kung Fu school when my instructor left town, but at first I was still affiliated with his Grand Master. So fit the first four years I just sent videos of all the tests to him for approval. Part of the deal was that I included my grades for review, but I completely deferred to him on the scores mostly because I didn't want to figure it out. Because of the distance and some differences in philosophy, we grew apart and before he retired we ended up breaking apart. It was his decision, but I wasn't upset by it... except that it meant doing my own testing.
I briefly considered getting rid of colored belts altogether, but couldn't get away from some kind of rank (who is in charge of I'm taking a payment?) and any rank other than colored belts would be confusing to the "I watched the new Ninja Turtles movie and want to learn martial arts" crowd. (And let's face it, for a lot of us, that's our bread and butter.)
I wanted to break out the family forms from my curriculum. There was a lawyer in my class that tried to tell me that he'd have a hard time enforcing copyright on those, but it was a family lawyer not a copyright lawyer, and copyright or not there's something off about teaching someone else's specific family traditions as if they're mine after dissolving that connection. Besides, I had enough that I knew through there and other places that wasn't that I could build a full curriculum without it.
I knew from my experience as an associate trainer at another job that whatever is on the test is what will get taught, so I decided to build a test around what I wanted to teach. I was able to divide the things I wanted to teach into seven sub-curriculums: Basics, Tan Tui, Long Fist, Praying Mantis (mixture of 8 step and seven star), Weapons(actually adapted from Capoferro style Italian Renaissance fencing, one of the things I picked up elsewhere), Chin-na (basic joint locking, grappling, and anatomy) and then I added an ethics curriculum. When I counted up the moves in the Long Fist Curriculum, I had 156 moves to grade. When I counted the Tan Tui, I got 152. When I did Mantis, I got 160, but I was able to combine a few. So I made 156 my magic number and built the other curriculums to each have 156 "points," adjusting as needed. Then I gradded each point on a 1 to 10 scale and put a sliding scale of belts, where I expected a person to be after a length of time and tired to that.
Not perfect, but I was on a schedule and a budget.
That is cool; I explain the rank structure the same way you do. In the beginning the student is like a toddler in elementary school - Yellow, Green, Blue (9 to 5th kyu); then a middle school student - Purple and Brown (4th to 1st kyu); then a HS student 1st to 5th dan (with 1st dan as the cross into womanhood or manhood), then a college student 6th to 8th dan, then professor at 9th (master), and doctorate at 10th (grandmaster). Absolutely! Elitism equals "toxism"! Sadly there is a lot of politics in the martial arts today with Facebook and TH-cam; with those who say they are masters at 20 years old; and those who claim to be linked to the mid evil warriors of Japan or some BS! Who cares; we are all martial artists and martial artists should all respect one another. And as far as color belts; black belts should work with them and be a mentor to them for that is how we learn from each other. Like Jess Enkamp said in one of his videos - "Shodan means first level". So I say at first man (Shodan) we are starting again - it really is not elite; it is a new beginning. One really is not elite until master or grandmaster and even they learn something new everyday. Our full curriculum goes up to 5th dan with kata's, techniques, and weapons forms; with 6th to 8th dan with weapons forms only. And all we have to do in the higher ranks is stay active on a board. Enjoyed the video. Oss. Master K, MA
What you said about the Dan ranks I have been saying it for years. I am glad that I am not the only one who knows this. In my style of Karate, Bushikan-Ryu, the curriculum sort of stops at 5th Dan. At 5th Dan you learn the last kata. From 6th Dan and up test covers all the katas and some techniques that the practitioner does not know will be on the test, its like a surprise, but they should know it. Also, the practitioner must be an instructor, so they have to be teaching the art.
I have came across many politics in the martial arts such as in Karate and in Taekwondo. Because of these politics, I was pushed away from these styles and started Bushikan-Ryu. NO POLITICS and all styles are good in different ways. Elitism to me has no place in martial arts. There may be different ranks such as colors, high rank, low rank, etc. but at the end you all have to work together. I have helped those higher and lower then myself and never threw rank at them or told them that my style is better. The martial arts community is a community and a community must work well together.
Your right about how elitism is poisonous in martial arts. I hate elitism. I also don't like bullies. I would not train with someone like that. Elitism is wrong.
Love the image of the Keyboard Warrior at 7:20. As for their impute I see a lot of elitism against Kyoshukin on TH-cam about head defence and lack of punches to the head. They seem to forget that as a style, this is full contact bare knuckle sparing.
As for advancing, I am only 9th Kyu, and see this as learning the very basics. Masters are 9th 9, and any grade above 2nd Dan is early by testing and what you give back to the style, with each test having longer periods between each test.
In my school to advance from 1st Dan and above you had to wait 2 years, learn 2 more advanced Kata, along with time in rank and contribution back into the martial arts.
Sadly I to have seen and experienced the political side of martial arts right when I started my journey about 11 years ago. I watched as it completely changed my perspective on many people who I held in high regard.
But something good came of it a well. My teacher was able to open his eyes and see that his teacher wasn't the man he thought he was and even though it was hard he was able to walk away from the former organization and has now opened up his own school completely separate from the politics and nonsense going on before.
He added to the legacy of our art and is now helping others the way Chinese martial arts helped him, with his own vision of what it all means to him
Our club gave up with dan grades being tested outside our own club, in uk you join a group (for insurance), and that group will have clubs from every martial art. The head of the group would test all dan grades above 3rd degree, and give out the grade, and this would cost up to £100.
Bearing in mind the instructor didn't practice your art, we always thought this was worthless. So our club adopted in house grades, you have to be tested by 3 people either higher, same. All have to agree, written as well as the syllabus. No £5 cost for all grades above 1st dan. £5 covered diploma and written test document.
1st dan was £25 because had a framed diploma (1st dan is special, the rest not so much).
There's a video floating around of a lady who lives in South Korea, who earned her 1st Dan in TKD in a year. Unfortunately many dojangs in SK are more like daycare centers than martial arts schools, and she found one. One look at that video will convince just about anyone that black belts and dan mean nothing, it's all about the school and your personal commitment level. Many, many schools misuse promotions as a way of retaining students while at the same time bringing in testing dollars. The leader of our association of schools has been training since the mid-1960's and achieved 8th Dan in 2010. I feel like that's a fair timeline. The other thing I have seen is incredible black belts who become stuck at a low-level Dan because their federation dissolved. Many times black belts can be much better than we would assume from their rank.
As far as elitism, that's an issue that revolves around personal character. There is this idea that training develops a person's character, which I think stems from Itosu Anko's training program in public schools around 1900 (of course we could trace that back to Shaolin if we wanted to as well). And I definitely believe that there needs to be a character-building component in any martial arts curriculum (with great power comes great responsibility). But none of this changes the fact that some people are just jerks, and no amount of character development is going to overcome that. But, I believe that the Internet magnifies that problem much more than it actually is. It's easy for a keyboard warrior to troll some elitism, but that doesn't mean it's really out there in the martial arts community.
It took about 7 years for me to reach 1st Dan.
So many martial artists are keyboard warriors. They trash talk on line, but I rarely see them on that mat LOL.
In our system, we test up to 4th degree. We consider 4th degree a master rank. We also do not have many color belts prior and do not promote often, so it takes quite some time to reach 4th degree. We also do not train anyone under 12. This works nicely as we do not have any student teaching senior rank before they have begun to develop in their maturity. In order to advance past 4th degree you must make significant contributions to the art. This is not a monetary contribution, but more of the idea of development of the art.
We do recognize seniority in the school, but do it based on respect and not fear. The color belts know to respect the senior rank to them, but the senior rank must have the physical skills and the moral character to work with any student, regardless of rank. If that ranking student is “too good” to work with a less advanced student, it is my opinion that the rank they are wearing doesn’t belong around their waist. The development of a moral character is just as important as learning techniques.
One final piece of info.. our school, The American Hapkido Alliance, is a non commercial school. The idea of paying for rank is out of the question. Our students are tested after learning their required curriculum and when the master decides they are ready. Little Johnny’s mother (figurative) has no say so when he is tested.
Great video sir!
Should say student reaching , not teaching lol
I tried eliminating the Dan Levels with my students. They wanted nothing to do with this. I wanted to have 3 ranks only...White(colors for kids up to Black), Black, and Instructor/Sensei(wearing Black or Red). So we continued with standard color belts under Black and the Dan system. In my school the terminating was 5th Dan or Go-Dan.
In the style I practice, Snake Fist Karate, we achieve the highest ranks by adding to the system. Last year I was promoted to 7th degree, and as part of my test I had to create a 70-move kata.
REALLY?? "snake fist karate"....70 "technique kata"? It's people like you and made up styles like yours that have RUINED martial arts in the modern day!!...get real. You're a 7th dan of BS! Edit: Oh my fk'n god I just watched a video..by you? I guess? It's so far worse than I ever imagined!!!!! You literally could not defend yourself against an athletic 13 yr.old girl! WTF?? No wonder people poo poo MA...pathetic..
There are few truly bad martial arts. There are, however, bad martial artists. The corollary to this is that there are many good martial arts and many good martial artists. An inability to recognize that a martial art is only as good as the martial artists it produces and that each martial art likely serves a purpose is the elitism you speak of. An inability to understand the strengths and weaknesses of every and any martial art, even the art one may practice, is a weakness of the martial artist. Fact is that there is always something to be learned from any and most every martial art. An understanding of that is the strength of any quality martial artist. There is always something to learn and always a way to grow as a martial artist and human being. A true quality martial artist lives by and with this understanding. It’s not unreasonable to understand that the more Belt Dans one earns, the more he understand this concept.
I wish I had the $$ to join a dojo. I am interested in Shotokan, Tae-Kwan-Do, and Judo. I started researching, and found a Global Martial Arts University online school, but obviously haven't joined, then as a b-day gift, i purchased two DVDs with techniques being shown by Hirokazu Kanazawa, a 10th dan in Shotokan over Kihon and Kata (there is also one for Kumite).
I'm interested in studying, but I want to go about it the right way, and obviously, money is a factor. I took karate as a kid, taekwondo as a teen, but my focus shifted to music which took up most of my time in middle/high school and college, but I've regretted stopping my martial arts training.
On both topics: Hear! Hear!
as a mixed style, we go by time, skill, focus (maturity/discipline), effort, and individual knowledge. so we have scheduled testings and to be eligible, you needed to show good effort and focus to prove you learned. then you show us your skills on testing. there are kids who come to class a lot but goof around too much to be on the no-test list.
Not too long ago I once asked Jesse Enkamp a question regarding rank (get to that later). As Dan mentioned, during Gichin Funakoshi’s time the highest rank he awarded was fifth degree black belt. It wasn’t until after his passing that the Japan Karate Association (JKA) began awarding ranks above fifth degree. Most likely in order to be on par with the Kodokan (Judo). Since shotokan has generally had a history of being first with regards to integrating certain things (belt system, Kyu/Dan system, dogi, etc) into karate that is, I don’t think it's that far fetch that other karate groups also followed the JKA’s lead and bumped up their Dan systems.
With that being said/written, i asked Jesse if he believed that if karate had never gone up to tenth degree would there be less ego as there is today? He said yes. I also agree. Personally, I think the fifth degree was good enough. After all, in the vast majority of systems, third or fourth degree black belt is the highest rank you physically have to test for and usually have standard material/curriculum up to. Everything else above is essentially honorary and just based on time and grade and often $$$$. Some associations will have you still physically test, but how much of that is new and how much is just repeating what you already know.
Let's take a look at military and law enforcement ranks. In the [U.S.] military, the highest ranks awarded during peacetime are general and admiral, both of which are represented by 4 stars. Very rarely is anyone ever promoted to 5 stars. In most law enforcement agencies, sheriff’s and police chiefs’ ranks are represented by 4 stars. The Los Angeles County sheriff is the only agency head that I’VE SEEN that wears 5 stars.
Now, is everyone who is higher than a fifth degree an egomaniac or elitist? Of course not. Most of my mentors are very high ranking black belts and very humble. Tsutomu Oshima is one if not the last living students of Funakoshi and received his fifth degree from him. To this day, Oshima still remains a fifth Dan and that is the highest rank awarded in his organization.
I’m also not saying people should stop at fifth degree or demote themselves. The original question asked to Jesse was, MIGHT there be less ego if we had never gone past fifth degree? There’s no right or wrong answer. We all will have different opinions based on our experiences. Like I said, my mentors are eighth, ninth and tenth degrees. Jesse has trained with countless eighth, ninth and tenth degrees from Okinawan. But these are the people who embody the martial arts. For every one of them we all know there are countless numbers of people with massive egos and elitists.
And now u have all these coral and red belts. I always thought "is black just not good enough for you anymore?"
@@sliderx1897 In my system, American Tang Soo Do you wore a plain old black belt. Embroidery was fine, but no rank stripes. Most still do it that way. But in one group, they created their own "grandmaster" and even "great grandmaster" belts with enough stripes to make Master Ken jealous.
In the World Tang Soo Do Association they added coral belts, both judo (red/white) and jiu-jitsu (red/black) versions. In both John Hackleman and Jeff Speakman's systems they have their own custom belts for higher degrees. Kajukenbo and some branches of shorin-ryu also have colorful belts. There's a group called the AKBBA out of Texas and they also award "pretty" belts.
Everyone is entitled to do as they wish, but I'd rather follow guys like Morio Higaonna or Fumio Demura's examples and just wear a regular black belt. That's the one thing I'll give the JKA credit for regarding Dan ranks, is that they always kept it black.
@@barrettokarate i come from a jka lineage and i agree. Just wear the same belt til it gets old. In some cases i feel some ppl even go overboard with their "worn" belts like when it is completely white with no more black on it. Like its ok to buy a new belt u can still keep it lol. My Sensei once skipped over a very high ranking black belt for an exercise because on a quick glance he thought the person was a white belt. He quickly apologized and said" Im sorry i thought that was a white belt" the person's face turned red as a tomato and nexr time they showed up to train they had a new belt on.
The issue I have in martial arts with the black belt system is every one has a opinion on how long it takes to reach each dan and some clam they are in charge of how black belts are given. I wish there was more history on the black bekt dan system I know the old day was 5th and done but now thetre so much more 5th and up.
I do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, for the most part I think 95% of the schools just give you your degrees from 1-9 based on time and they adhere to a pretty strict promotion schedule just based on time in your current degree. I only know of a couple of schools that actually test for knowledge based on degrees in BJJ. I'm not sure really why that is. It would be interesting to hear other people's thoughts.
Another great episode. I've experienced a lot of ego over the years. I've watched one black belt go from 6th degree to 10th degree in jus over 2 years. Self promoting. I believe in lineage, but just to show that you have experience, not on how great you are. Last week my mother passed away and while going thru old photos and stuff, found my yellow belt certificate from 1976 signed by Tadashi Yamashita. So I can prove my lineage, but I feel my character means just as much.
Oh I am so sorry to hear, my absolute sincerest condolences my friend :(
@@ArtofOneDojo Thank you for the kind words. Really mean a lot
Rank is not privilege or entitlement, but responsibility. Dan ranks show deepening expertise certainly, but they are also the measure of what one does for other students and the school. You have the knowledge and can transmit it to others.
Time in grade is important, but it must be quality time so that you refine your technique and develop a deep understanding of why, not merely how.
As for elitism, if a technique or style works then use it. That said, sport fighting is not martial arts. Martial, war, is not for points or trophies. Lineage has value but if the goal is to learn how to defend yourself, win a sport bout, master warrior skills, or stay physically fit, then that goal must be the bottom line. Having said that, understand that we each have different goals in training and comparing apples to oranges benefits no one.
I have come across a individual who was too impatient to earn their black belt ranks so set up their own version of a system and promoted themselves to 10 Dan and were serious
Yes, I've known similar individuals as well.
Are you talking about Master Ken 😂
I have 4yrs in shoalindo kungfu of the Chinese system, and I think maintaining a humble view point of the martial arts/karate as a general household word, if you have the mind of heart and soul and conscious, too accept the viewpoint that no one system is better than the other and always keep an open mind, cause I'm a firm believer that you need to lower yourself back down into your lower belt ranking knowledge too maintain practice knowledge just to keep said knowledge intact for memory purposes, but I have considered this thought, I simply can't consider myself a first degree black belt until I have practiced all of that belt material and passed it, then I will see myself as a fully certified as a first degree black belt, and the rest are the same, but I think my bigger question is this,,
Through the history of the given martial arts karate systems, how were they ever able to design the weaponry systems and animals systems that we have today, for the complexities and details, yes ,I'll admit it takes a lot of patience and practice, but for the amount of material technic one must learn to elevate for the degree ranking is mind boggling at least,
Remember that martial arts levels and belts are a very MODERN thing. They are *not* a historically traditional part of martial arts, which is why many schools still don't use this system. Also remember that the pre-black belt levels were originally created as simplified versions for children, when arts like Karate were introduced to the Japanese school curriculum.
Traditionally your martial arts training STARTED at what is taught at first level black belt today. This is why the first black belt is called SHODAN 初段, lit. meaning "first level." Traditionally you began your training *at* Shodan from your first level, back in the old days when martial arts training started with adults, not children (i.e. when people were old enough to serve in armies).
Levels and belts are irrelevant. The person who can beat you in a fight is your superior, regardless of level, belt etc.
P.S.: "Dan" (段) means "level" in Japanese, so "Dan level" means "level level." :D I would just say "level" -- don't see the point of mixing Japanese w/ English unless necessary.
I think time in rank is kind of silly compared to contribution. I know some people who don't teach, help with gradings, add new techniques to the syllabus or write articles or anything but they get promoted a degree if they just train for the required number of years even without competing or teaching. I also know people who train in one style of karate and then switch schools and have to work their way back up. I think if you have been active in training, teaching & competing for 3 years in one style and then 5 years in another as well that should count as 8 years or at least 5 years overall karate training (ie WKF minimum requirement for 3rd dan and 2nd dan respectively).
I live in Australia and I'm currently training in Chitokai Karate and what I've noticed since I started is belt colours mean diddly dick. They are literally just "indicators" for the instructors to see where students are at in their journey, and how long they've been training... nothing more and nothing less. And a black belt is just a student who is competent in all the basics.
Or option 2 I become not just martial artist but fighter and boxer with seven martial arts styles Sanda kyokushin karate Taekwondo ITF Muay Thai combat sambo BJJ and boxing
my sensei tought me multiple martial arts
If there is elitism in a martial art then you don't need that art. That attitude is counter to the point of martial arts. If I was a civilian that walked into a school and saw that I wouldn't join that school
Elitism it’s not a good thing. Ultimately for peoples personal growth Dan ranks teaching is necessary for personal growth which leaves no place for elitism.
How can anybody achieve a rank of any kind of master or. Shihan . If they don’t know what it is to teach people? Teaching is so important.
In my style of Soryu in between each Dan is a teacher certificate test necessary before the next Dan can be tested for .
I agree with you that styles should not badmouth each other or feel that they are better than other styles.
However that should not be confused with styles trying to protect themselves.
Unfortunately in the United States my style had one person who was a low rank. Dan Who created a large organization using our name and logos within United States and they self promote themselves to 10 degree Black belts. During the time that our founder was still alive in Japan and a 8 degree black belt .
So it’s important not to confuse elitism with people who are trying to protect their organization from those that are unauthorized that steal the name and logos and start their own groups.
🥋🥋🥋
I have long held the opinion that: "There are too many belts and ranks in most martial arts systems." If it were up to me, there would be no more than 3 colored belts, (with only 3 degrees within each belt) and one's advancement in rank would depend "mostly" how well they could spar, but I digress. The fact that some Judo systems even have "11th & 12th dans" seems all the more unnecessary, when you consider that by the time you're a "legit 9th dan", you're pretty much a "grandmaster" as far as knowledge & skill are concerned in that art -- and you're most likely middle aged, if not geriatric. So, 10th dan is a good stopping place. I've heard of 9th dans being referred to as "grandmasters" in their own schools. Incidentally, Charles Gaylord was a 9th dan in Kajukenbo, and his "students" promoted him to 10th dan -- a rank that he humbly accepted.
I’ve been training now in taekwondo going on 2 years now. I’ve never seen any of the black belts refuse to work with colored belts.
How long do you think it takes to earn a 10th Dan black belt?
Typically 40-60 years
So how good is the Tracy bros system of Kenpo?
It can be good if you of course find a good school. Like many Kenpo disciplines it's easy to find it as a McDojo. A good Tracy school will spar often with continuous sparring, many will even compete. I have a preference to Parker Kenpo but that's just my own preference based on how I was taught.
5 YEARS MIN 4 BB!
Why we don't have a red belt in our school White yellow orange green blue purple brown black adult shotokan
Black is just the start of your journey in martial arts to many get to black and think there journey has finished and quit ?
I apologize, Tom Lowery's books cover much martial arts culture , not just belt rank. BTW I am 74 years old at this time .
Rank is just a guide....anyone can learn and contribute. Don't focus on belts. Focus on training.
I just left a school because of the teacher elitism. You were always wrong even when you were right. It is becoming more and more dangerous and I feared for the health and welfare of some elderly students. Very very sad and I hope nobody gets hurt.
Very nicely put comparassing of the black belt ranks my friend, in the youtube world you can even look at it as from 1 subscriber to 1000 subs going through the KYU levels.
1 to 100 beeing white belt to
900 to 999 beeing at a brown belt level.
Then reaching your first Dan at
1K subs 🙂
from there 1K to 100K as a first dan
and 900k to 999,999 subscribers being a 10 Dan🙂🙂
after that you are a master of your craft.
This will then make you as having 32.9 K subs a 1 DAN my friend.
Congratulations 🙂🙂🙂
I myself just reached 204 subscribers which makes me a yellow belt lol and I have a beautifull road ahead hope to reach the DAN levels.🙂
As for elitism and politics, no room for that, its poison, well put.
Osu
Arigato
Elitism is stupid. All martial arts are good in there own way and its really about how you use it. At the Shotokan school I started at they would only physically test you til 3rd Dan then after that I'm not really sure how you progress I think its through just teaching and commitment to the art and school plus I think you would have to go through an association like JKA to get your 4th Dan.
I can’t wait to be the most elitist of elite black belts one day.
But there will always be someone who claims to be the SUPER most elitist of the elite....and then you'll have to strive for EXTRA UBER Super Most elitst of elites.....I think I just gave myself a headache.
@@ArtofOneDojo it’s a never ending journey to the bottom haha
Elitism and politics drive me nuts. I see it in my own organization. If you aren't part of the in-group, you are dismissed unless you have proven yourself to eveyone else to a point that the in-group can't dismiss you. This isn't to say that the in-group controls everything but they try to. To a degree, I guess this is the plight of the dissenter, but it is frustrating when your ideas and critiques are dismissed because they aren't what the in-group wants to hear.
If you’re a black belt and refuse to work with color belts just because you’re a black belt ten maybe you should go back to wearing a color belt till you can learn to work with color belts as a black belt
I thought the Ed Parker extended out to long 7 sticks and long 8 knife which carried it threw to 5 th Dan I don’t know as I swapped to Tracey Kenpo afterGM Ed Parker died cause all of sudden their was a lot 10th dans run around I personally believe the any system should only have 1 10 th Dan acting like CEO as it leader with more 9 th and 8ths acting more like board of directors . How they do that up to them maybe like election for post of it if it already developed in Ed Parker case one the first students he promoted to Blackbelt should have been given that position in another ways I feel like only the founder should hold that position then as and 9 th Dan should be highest out of respect to the Great Grand Master of the system. But as 6 th Dan Tracey Kenpo, and have 2 other Blackbelt . But I focus on BJJ right know so I’m also just white belt and loving it I lean more into Danny Insanto I hope spelled that right but you hear all the arts he study Ed Parker Kenpo Blackbelt left study under Bruce Lee then Escrima then BJJ and sure I missed a few he study but that the mind set I keep
It's interesting how elitism comes, at first, from a GOOD intent. Like, if some nobody starts to teach, while being an orange belt, OR being black belt under a fake master with no qualification, is a problem. Originally, saying "well, i got the black belt to the official national organization, whose chief is xyz, whose master was fgh, whose master was Funakoshi's cousin", well, MAYBE you're more qualified. But it turns very quickly into "my grandpa is better than yours at imaginary ass-kicking", and it promotes a cult mentality. I heard some chinese martial arts were the worst offenders. Still, i went back back for a friendly training at my first karate dojo, of a different organization (the one i'm now is JKF, who organizes world tournaments and Olympics), and some students asked me if my "new" org does even the same Shotokan they did! And THEIRS was the obscure-unknown one. But my actual instructor is the same. He's prone on kids knowing that JKF is the important one, also asking its name in the exams
Travis Stevens is an Olympic Judoka but they won't give him his coral belt because of the beurocracy/elitism of it
Sadly this is a very common scenario.
I do enjoy the politics in martial arts. Watching, not partaking. I'm not a member of a single martial arts organization. I don't pay anyone to be a part of a group. There are so many, and too many people inserting politics based organizational letters. Another thing I've seen on Facebook mainly, is the sheer number of karateka who've been in a fight, or say they have, and will lecture everyone on what they would do in a life and death situation, and never in an instructional way. More in a "I need to prove to everyone I'm a killer." You just have to laugh.
I find elitism In martial arts one of the dumbest things as specially in black rankings. Don’t people realise that as soon as you step out of the dojo. Your black doesn’t mean anything. Whether your good at fighting or not.
I found elitism I agree is a toxic practice but can be found anywhere my own niece said to my son I have a uni degree I am better than you. My son responded yep I am a mechanic best fix your own car. The martial arts is MMA (my martial arts) that it is not one size fits all the best art is what fits you all the best Dan.