I've done a bit of research into Edwin G. Bates, and I think you've done him wrong. He left the Bates Manufacturing Company in about 1895, and set up the Bates Machine Company in 1899. He died in 1907, and it was only in 1909 that the latter company tried to insert Numbering into its name, finally going too far in its deceptive practices and receiving an injunction. The next year the company was bought by William C. Roberts, a former jeweller, and renamed the Roberts Numbering Machine Company. Anyway, it seems Bates knew what he was doing and how far he could go, and it was only after he was dead that it went wrong. BTW, I have found a real picture of Bates.
@@ChrisStaecker He's certainly no angel though. I just found out that a year after after he left he sent to all the customers (or at least as many as he and his secretary could remember) a postcard to "remind" them to have their Bates machines regularly serviced at his Bates Machine Company, also offering to supply new machines. Quite sneaky! Still, at this point he was reselling original machines so he was more or less just acting as a dealership, not a real competitor. When his new company started to manufacture their own machines is when things got real dicey.
For those not aware “sperm oil” refers to a once common lubricant derived from sperm whales. It had important industrial uses in the US until it was outlawed by the Endangered Species Act in the 1970s. Best to go with other lubricant options these days.
We used the List Finder for our telephone directory back in the 70s. I always thought it was the coolest thing & now some 45 years later thanks to you, I now know what it was & who made it and found a pic of it to bring back faded memories.... Thank you....
Moral ambiguity and the question of double spending intellectual property by Edwin G. Bates. Lol. Love this series and the "trifecta of originality" in this episode! Thanks Chris!
I am so glad I found your videos. Now when I'm at estate sales I look for neat math devices. I got an ARITHMA with *original* instructions, and *original* stylus! No broom splints.
Print industry still uses stamps almost identical to this on "crash numbering machines" which are generally used to number multi-part / carbonless stationary that have been printed using a process that doesn't allow for variable data. It's called "crash numbering" because it'll "crash" through all the pages of a multi-part set. You can get type-height sized ones that will mount directly onto a letterpress too. Even stuff that's printed digitally will sometimes pick a 'grungy' typeface to emulate crash-numbering.
Fun fact: My uncle had a Designer List Finder as his address book when I was a kid. I thought it was super cool! It still is. Thanks for another great video. I love your presentation style. It’s very ORIGINAL!
There’s a term for when a Trademarked name is used so frequently it stops being trademarkable-genericization-and it’s a nightmare scenario for a lot of companies. You can’t trademark the regular everyday term for something, so if your trademark is so associated with something people call it that regardless of brand, a judge can rule it’s become the new generic term for it and your trademark is henceforth invalid. “Hoover” was genericized in Britain, so any vaccuum cleaner there can call its product a hoover whether it is made by Hoover or not. And for a Us example Webster’s was genericized for dictionaries, so the legal successors to the original Webster’s dictionary had to rebrand to Merriam-Webster at some point to keep brand recognition. It’s also the reason why Google *really* doesn’t want folks saying they google things and are desperate to get it OUT of the the Merriam-Webster and Oxford dictionaries. Or Coke doesn’t like midwesterners calling sprite a type of coke. Or Kleenex doesn’t want you calling generic tissues kleenex.
The Lego company is particularly insistent about this. They're rabid about defending the IP they still hold (mostly trademarks, and the copyrights to particular sets) because the patents to most of their toys all expired many decades ago and they can't stop anyone from making functionally exact knockoffs of Lego bricks. They keep trying to just use trademark law to somehow stop that from happening and they always lose, because that's not what it's for, but fighting back can be expensive.
When visiting Tallinn last month I stopped by an antique shop to get a peek through the display window. There was a bunch of cool engineering-related stuff like a slide rule, an optical theodolite (no electronics) and, on a little table in the back, one of these amazing, hand-cranked mechanical calculators. It was a tiny one, probably 20x20cm, but seemed to have some additional functions based on the number of levers/switches. What a shame that the shop was closed at that time!
In the US we call a telescopic instrument with visible angle plates and verniers a Transit, they usually have A and B verniers on opposite sides of the circle. If the angles are read through a little eyepiece (Wild, Zeiss, and Kern were the most common makers) then we call it a Theodolite. They are both theodolites and they are both transits (the telescope can be “transited” all the way around the horizontal axis without hitting anything) but Transit is understood to be the older instrument and theodolite is understood to be the internal reading instrument.
What was unique about the Bates stamping for the legal world was not the consecutive numbering, but the "duplicate" option. I'm a lawyer and I have one of these too just for my shelf - if you switch that arrow to "duplicate", it will stamp the same number twice before increasing the number. This is because we lawyers produce documents a lot in discovery. In order to do that, we need two identical copies of the documents. One to send to the other side, and one to keep for ourselves. This is why the legal industry adopted Bates numbering. And you're right, we still use it today. But we don't stamp. The stamp stopped being used in the 80's. Cool video.
@@deathtotruthers1 15 boxes? How about hundreds? Working in the legal photostat / photocopy industry in the 60's- 80's this was common. You would split boxes up in series, so you can have multiple people Bates Stamping.
@@rockinbones8508 Sounds like a nightmare! These days we just produce hundreds of thousands of pages in PDF and post them to something like Dropbox or Box. Can't imagine. I started in the law right as the move to computers was happening. Don't envy you that job back then!
I've just bought such a machine, probably from the 1950s, but it's a different brand (GEMS). It has a switch to select the number of duplicates with the options 1, 2, 3, 4, or infinity. Amazingly enough I found that the German company Reiner still makes almost identical "Numeroteurs" today.
If you dig this you should find an Acmade edge coder. It’s a machine that does this except it prints ascending numbers on every foot of film in a reel.
Well now I'm buying a Bates numbering machine. I've been looking for this exact thing but apparently my google-fu wasn't strong enough. Thanks Chris Staeker!
I have a Bates Numbering Machine Serial No. D464641, 6 wheels and STYLE E. It was made in Hackettstown, NJ. I guess this was from Bates' second company. It is definitely stuck. It stamps but the numbers don't change. I thought it was funny that you used Bates from Downton Abbey. 😂
BTW, I forgot to say that I used to work in the Australian Customs Service and we had heaps of these for numbering import documents and receipts. Some had dates or day numbers on them, and you'd inevitably forget to change them for the new day!
This was disappointing to me- you can see screws on the face plates but the front plate can’t be easily removed because of the little knob on there. You can take off the back plate, but there’s really nothing visible on the inside.
I was expecting a joke about a "Master" series of the numbering machine. Or him getting an apprentice , so it would be referring to him as "Master" ... Bates. :( The internet has ruined me .
I've done a bit of research into Edwin G. Bates, and I think you've done him wrong. He left the Bates Manufacturing Company in about 1895, and set up the Bates Machine Company in 1899. He died in 1907, and it was only in 1909 that the latter company tried to insert Numbering into its name, finally going too far in its deceptive practices and receiving an injunction. The next year the company was bought by William C. Roberts, a former jeweller, and renamed the Roberts Numbering Machine Company. Anyway, it seems Bates knew what he was doing and how far he could go, and it was only after he was dead that it went wrong.
BTW, I have found a real picture of Bates.
Very interesting... I hope Bates's great-grandkids will forgive me! This makes more sense why the new company was called Roberts. Thanks for the info!
@@ChrisStaecker He's certainly no angel though. I just found out that a year after after he left he sent to all the customers (or at least as many as he and his secretary could remember) a postcard to "remind" them to have their Bates machines regularly serviced at his Bates Machine Company, also offering to supply new machines. Quite sneaky! Still, at this point he was reselling original machines so he was more or less just acting as a dealership, not a real competitor. When his new company started to manufacture their own machines is when things got real dicey.
This review had everything, ORIGINAL paraphernalia, BONES, history, missing stylus. What more could you ask for?
A visit to the Bates Manufacturing Company factory perhaps?
There was a distinct lack of melonheads.
And broom splints!
For those not aware “sperm oil” refers to a once common lubricant derived from sperm whales. It had important industrial uses in the US until it was outlawed by the Endangered Species Act in the 1970s.
Best to go with other lubricant options these days.
It was also used as a fluid in car automatic transmissions.
We used the List Finder for our telephone directory back in the 70s.
I always thought it was the coolest thing & now some 45 years later thanks to you, I now know what it was & who made it and found a pic of it to bring back faded memories....
Thank you....
An outstanding example of engrossing storytelling.
Moral ambiguity and the question of double spending intellectual property by Edwin G. Bates. Lol. Love this series and the "trifecta of originality" in this episode! Thanks Chris!
I am so glad I found your videos. Now when I'm at estate sales I look for neat math devices. I got an ARITHMA with *original* instructions, and *original* stylus! No broom splints.
Print industry still uses stamps almost identical to this on "crash numbering machines" which are generally used to number multi-part / carbonless stationary that have been printed using a process that doesn't allow for variable data. It's called "crash numbering" because it'll "crash" through all the pages of a multi-part set. You can get type-height sized ones that will mount directly onto a letterpress too.
Even stuff that's printed digitally will sometimes pick a 'grungy' typeface to emulate crash-numbering.
Wake up babe, a new video from Professor Staecker just dropped!
Fun fact: My uncle had a Designer List Finder as his address book when I was a kid. I thought it was super cool! It still is.
Thanks for another great video. I love your presentation style. It’s very ORIGINAL!
There’s a term for when a Trademarked name is used so frequently it stops being trademarkable-genericization-and it’s a nightmare scenario for a lot of companies. You can’t trademark the regular everyday term for something, so if your trademark is so associated with something people call it that regardless of brand, a judge can rule it’s become the new generic term for it and your trademark is henceforth invalid. “Hoover” was genericized in Britain, so any vaccuum cleaner there can call its product a hoover whether it is made by Hoover or not. And for a Us example Webster’s was genericized for dictionaries, so the legal successors to the original Webster’s dictionary had to rebrand to Merriam-Webster at some point to keep brand recognition.
It’s also the reason why Google *really* doesn’t want folks saying they google things and are desperate to get it OUT of the the Merriam-Webster and Oxford dictionaries. Or Coke doesn’t like midwesterners calling sprite a type of coke. Or Kleenex doesn’t want you calling generic tissues kleenex.
Yes- see privacyandiplawblog.com/2010/10/have-we-lawyers-genericized-bates-numbers/
The Lego company is particularly insistent about this. They're rabid about defending the IP they still hold (mostly trademarks, and the copyrights to particular sets) because the patents to most of their toys all expired many decades ago and they can't stop anyone from making functionally exact knockoffs of Lego bricks. They keep trying to just use trademark law to somehow stop that from happening and they always lose, because that's not what it's for, but fighting back can be expensive.
When visiting Tallinn last month I stopped by an antique shop to get a peek through the display window. There was a bunch of cool engineering-related stuff like a slide rule, an optical theodolite (no electronics) and, on a little table in the back, one of these amazing, hand-cranked mechanical calculators. It was a tiny one, probably 20x20cm, but seemed to have some additional functions based on the number of levers/switches. What a shame that the shop was closed at that time!
In the US we call a telescopic instrument with visible angle plates and verniers a Transit, they usually have A and B verniers on opposite sides of the circle. If the angles are read through a little eyepiece (Wild, Zeiss, and Kern were the most common makers) then we call it a Theodolite. They are both theodolites and they are both transits (the telescope can be “transited” all the way around the horizontal axis without hitting anything) but Transit is understood to be the older instrument and theodolite is understood to be the internal reading instrument.
That's an incredible photo of Edwin Bates from the 1940s
What was unique about the Bates stamping for the legal world was not the consecutive numbering, but the "duplicate" option. I'm a lawyer and I have one of these too just for my shelf - if you switch that arrow to "duplicate", it will stamp the same number twice before increasing the number. This is because we lawyers produce documents a lot in discovery. In order to do that, we need two identical copies of the documents. One to send to the other side, and one to keep for ourselves. This is why the legal industry adopted Bates numbering. And you're right, we still use it today. But we don't stamp. The stamp stopped being used in the 80's. Cool video.
Funny.
I have one of these on my desk at work, I work in electronic discovery so it's kind of a totem of the industry.
@@BCThunderthud They're cool - a bit of legal history. Can't imagine the time when you had to physically stamp 15 boxes of docs with one of these.
@@deathtotruthers1 15 boxes? How about hundreds? Working in the legal photostat / photocopy industry in the 60's- 80's this was common. You would split boxes up in series, so you can have multiple people Bates Stamping.
@@rockinbones8508 Sounds like a nightmare! These days we just produce hundreds of thousands of pages in PDF and post them to something like Dropbox or Box. Can't imagine. I started in the law right as the move to computers was happening. Don't envy you that job back then!
I'm a new viewer. Your delivery is priceless - made me laugh out loud. Thank you!
A Chris Staecker certified kids toy
I've just bought such a machine, probably from the 1950s, but it's a different brand (GEMS). It has a switch to select the number of duplicates with the options 1, 2, 3, 4, or infinity. Amazingly enough I found that the German company Reiner still makes almost identical "Numeroteurs" today.
I wish I had one, but if I did I'd only use it a few times then forget about it in storage. A good piece of engineering deserves use.
Oh man, your sense of humor is just so on point. I love these videos.
The number goes up, that's what numbers do! 🚀
yet another masterpiece of a video about a masterpiece of a machine
You are both informative and entertaining and I love your videos about old technology. Thank you and keep it up!
If you dig this you should find an Acmade edge coder. It’s a machine that does this except it prints ascending numbers on every foot of film in a reel.
that vanilla ice reference was 😙👌 chef's kiss
The bones to pads ratio is WAY off on that Amazon listing
The list finder was commonly used for names and phone numbers, a contact list. Like a Rolodex. Those have been around my entire life.
Deeds are commonly recorded in books called a Liber.
Well now I'm buying a Bates numbering machine. I've been looking for this exact thing but apparently my google-fu wasn't strong enough. Thanks Chris Staeker!
I have a Bates Numbering Machine Serial No. D464641, 6 wheels and STYLE E. It was made in Hackettstown, NJ. I guess this was from Bates' second company. It is definitely stuck. It stamps but the numbers don't change. I thought it was funny that you used Bates from Downton Abbey. 😂
Dude... I love your style!
would love a conclusion of some sort at the end. But entertaining video for sure
That's a great photo of Edwin
New subbie. Very cool video! I didn't know you could still buy Bates ink! And I'm so happy to see HOW to get the inky pad door open. TFS!
BTW, I forgot to say that I used to work in the Australian Customs Service and we had heaps of these for numbering import documents and receipts. Some had dates or day numbers on them, and you'd inevitably forget to change them for the new day!
Likes go up. That's what likes do. Kiitos.
My mother, who is an attorney, used these into the 90s and early 2000s.
Great video! 😃👍
Lol it took me a whole year to notice the Bates joke at 0:42
I want to see the innards of this thing that lets it do duplicate mode
This was disappointing to me- you can see screws on the face plates but the front plate can’t be easily removed because of the little knob on there. You can take off the back plate, but there’s really nothing visible on the inside.
I used a pencil for mine. Worked perfectly. But, you can only move the numbers from one side.
I want one! I have no idea what I would really do with it...but I want one!! 😂
We used one on the loading dock at UCLA in 1980 - best job ever. Instead I sold out for a few bones to become a software engineer.
Nice- I went to UCLA- finished 2009
How do you sink numbers that you don't want? For example if you just want to stamp a number like 001?
Gotta use the wooden stylo to turn it to the number you want. Not very satisfying.
Only one! For eight bones!
That's not Edwin Bates, that's John Bates ; )
My dad has one. Somehow the pin was removed. Do you have recommendations on how to place the pin back in with the spring?
I don't really need one
but I WANT one
I *must* have one!
Not sure why, I don't know what I would really do with it...but I must have one.
Are you sure about that Bates image at 0:44? :-)
Hmm... I think I recognize that John (Edwin) Bates?
I was expecting a joke about a "Master" series of the numbering machine.
Or him getting an apprentice , so it would be referring to him as "Master" ... Bates.
:( The internet has ruined me .
WHY AM I WATCHING THIS VIDEO
Too bad you can't just use a broom splint
Yoooo
TFW E.G. Bates invented something more useful and longer-lasting than B. Gates.
youd think the guy selling a product used for people handling legal documents would know better than to pull a stunt like that
I'm sorry, refined sperm??
A machine so old they recommend lubricating it with whale oil. 🐋🛢️