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Sailau Inspired Lug Sail on my Proa (and new speed record!)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2024
- I wanted to try a different sail - I wanted it to be bigger, for light winds.
The sailau, from the Louisiade Archipelago in Papua New Guinea, looked interesting. They use a large lug sail, which I read was inspired by Australian Pearl Lugger.
I made something that kinda looked right and tried it out.
This video shows some of the pros and cons I have discovered so far with this sail - and also the new personal speed record that I have accomplished with it!
Some information on the Sailau:
www.tenayatrave...
• SAILAU trailer
And also you might like my playlist of every traditional proa video that I could find: • sailing waka
You make the best sailing videos! Like McGyver crossed with James Wharram with a side of Crocodile Dundee. Great stuff!
haha thanks Rory!
Dude, that's awesome. The purists would cringe, but you made a high performance sail out of a tarp. And it works damn well. Really cool video!
haha. I'm am a tarp purist. I wanna make the worlds fastest polytarp
I love this boat, small, easy to transport and fast. I'm going to make one just like it soon.
Awesome! btw, there is a link to the drawings I made for it in the description of the build video
The sudden bear away I also experienced, on a similar hull shape. I think it's when it goes from displacement mode with the sharp front corner submerged, and then jumps onto a planing mode on the flat bottom, which moves the centre of resistance back a lot. Might explain why so many proas have very gradual stems / transition to deep mid section!
hmm. yes I'm not sure. and not sure how to test it either. it does seem to accompany a sudden acceleration too. I think it might be also be related to apparent wind. I think my boat has a little more rocker (at the ends at least) than yours so you can see in the video the stem is out of the water at the time it happens. so my hunch is that sudden acceleration means apparent wind comes forward but boat is balanced for a certain wind angle so it turns down to match the apparent wind, causing it to accelerate more and then angular momentum carries it too far, especially with no trailing fin at the back, and not a lot of V in the flat bottom? hmm, yes planing moving the center of resistance back makes a lot of sense, actually.
hmm, second thought, maybe the trailing fin wouldn't stop the bear off, probably because maybe it's the bow that slips sideways? I'm usually perched fairly far back when it happens (I'm 65kg, about the same as the boat, so CoM is a bit aft of the mast step i reckon, so speed increase=>apparent wind increase=>lift increase=>more force forward of the CoM=>rotation. If as you say CoR moves back as planing lift increases that's gonna increase the effect!
Delighted to see a new video from you. Remarkable speeds there! Absolutely flying.
thanks!
Keep up just being you. My kind of sailing; you're always learning, always experimenting and not blowing $1000 on sails only to keep them in the locker for years!
haha no I've never spent that much on a single sail!
Your skill sets continue to impress. And still humble. Keep it up, amazing stuff.
Thanks for sharing the video. Quite a straight line, so seems the proa is pretty good to steer.
Love the exploration of different sail from different lineage.
Excellent, saw you sailing this in Islington Bay a couple weeks ago, very clean tidy sail and looked highly effective
Real sailing. Great you are experimenting with these interesting rigs
thanks! there are still a few more I would like to try also!
Man, this is impressive !
Missing NZ and sailing.
I've been hanging out for another post. Thankyou for making the effort to post.... this little proa is a blast by the looks of it. I used to blast around those waters in my windsurfer so I know what it's like out there in the winter in 20+ knots...... though we used long wetsuits 😊
I'm still figuring out the best thing to wear. my previous experience with wetsuits is they don't actually keep you very warm in the wind. might be okay for the legs? I have a woolen jumper under the raincoat and the foam lifejacket provides very good insulation from the wind
@@dominictarrsailingsee if you can pick up a used dry suit. Get a generous size.
@@markthomasson5077 oh i got one, but its a lot of hassel for just a quick sail
thanks for making another video Dominic
no problem!
Very cool! I need to finish the one I started. After summer in the states I'll be done with work. This is inspiring. Love the netting on the Proa.
thanks I made that netting myself by sewing webbing strapping together. It actually didn't turn out as well as I hoped, it's a bit too saggy. I'm looking to replace it with something I can get tighter
@@dominictarrsailing I wonder if you had sewn it at a diagonal instead, would that maybe have allowed it to tighten? I think of pulling a square by its corners instead of its sides...
@@zackariasthepirate oh interesting suggestion. hmm, maybe it would have but it certainly would have made it much more difficult to construct because now the pieces are not all the same length. I think it would have been better to make a rigid frame and then weave the webbing through it without cutting it, but then it might be difficult to pack down. hmm.
@@dominictarrsailing It's all an experiment and I love to see all the trials on all this.
nicely done. Very helpful. Thank you.
Great work .. i hope to build a small proa one day .. but my main area for sailing is a croc infested river so i have it on hold at the moment
Probs the best current feed on proa testing! Good on ya!
Thanks! I hope you are also watching Rael Dobkins and Proasis though!
and fjordproa. there is little enough proa content best to just watch everything. (also see my playlist linked in the description)
Great vid! Camera work is good and I liked the shunt practice.
@@fossilfool thanks!
That seems to be a pretty good solution to increase sail area while keeping the CE forward.
Does look more of a handful to shunt.
Really like the idea of reefing back to a crabclaw - when the wind comes up you need both sailing and shunting to get easier.
Very much enjoying the ongoing evolution of this boat.
yeah I havn't reefed or unreefed while actually sailing yet. really need to see how that goes. I have done that with the zip off crabclaw. I think a problem with changing crabclaw sizes is when it's bigger the area shifts back quite a bit so you have to compensate with mast tilt etc but it still seemed a bit too far back, especially as wind strength increased.
Another fantastic video - love the speed on such a small, home built vessel!
congrats on the speed record!
It looks very exciting, and it looks like you have a lot of varietals to adjust that could make you go faster, cheers.
@@russellsmith8609 yeah still quite a few things to try!
Love your work
Fascinating! 11 kts with a polytarp sail! I agree with skyl4rk, a freestanding mast would save alot of hassle when shunting. They say there is no performance difference with a balanced lugger on either tack.
Yes but I think you want to move the sail area to the front of the boat. If you just pivot around the mast in the front on the boat, the sail area will be too far back, and you'll have a lot of weather helm, so you'll need to have a large rudder (and proa rudders are complicated). Although that problem isn't so bad with an unstayed schooner rig, such as in the John Harris "Mbuli" design. I sailed on one of those once, we shunted up a river with moorings on each side. It actually had brakes! you could back the sail and stop just before hitting a moored boat, then switch roles to trimmer to helm etc. But it has more complicated jzero rudders where as my proa is very simple, no rudder at all.
@@dominictarrsailing Yes, rudderless is a bold move. I like it. The rig provides yaw control.
@@donlawrence1428 sailing by balance is my favorite thing about this sort of traditional-inspired proa sailing. Also I havn't come up with a rudder design that I really like yet
Nice one Dominic!!! When are we building the foils?
@@MdG-o2q hmm what format? I think a T foil with trailing wand on each end of waka and one on ama (taking place of the leeboard) they would need to be able to turn 180, so i think that would eliminate leading wand designs.
Though, once we are flying could probably just tack, especially as we will be going so fast the apparent wind will always be well forward, and will be pretty much sheeted in hard with only slight adjustments
Amazing bro! The greatest Shunting vid on the net!!!
My Junk Rigs luff loves snagging on my head stay when Shunting, so I added bungee cords that pull them out of the way. Maybe u could try to come up with something of that sort... Maybe u have seen mine and how they work, if not I can explain later...
It's very true what u say, Shunting must be flawless!! Time isn't a huge problem... But it must be perfect!
A bad shunt, while exiting a bay got me on the rocks.
So yeah, try sort out snagging lines, otherwise, u blew me away!
Keep Shunting my friend
Balkan Shipyards ❤
@@BalkanShipyards thanks Rael! Ive only sailed this rig less than 10 times so i am sure i will think of some improvements with a bit more practice. Yes i remember your bungees! I solved that problem a different way by shifting the stays back. When they where right on the end it would snag on the crabclaw but now this is a different sail...
I was just about to tag you Raoul! Keep shunting!
You're doing very well mate, and your editing is top class!
Sort out what u can, test it reefed, I love the small CC concept... u may have the Proa that could rock the tube...
The smaller the boat, the more the fun...
Keep Shunting
Balkan Shipyards
Wow, well done, looking so much fun.
Surprising how good a shape you get out of a polytarp
Perhaps if you had a line from the tack of the yard, pull it tight before shunting , the yard might not catch.
Where do your stays go to? If out to the ama, they might not catch as much.
Have you considered a semi freestanding mast. I am thinking of an elongated socket to let it flop, but still a stay to the ama.
I would still want a rudder, that sudden bearing away could then be controlled
@@markthomasson5077 i have one stay to the ama (essential) then one to each end. These dont actually go to the ends, they go to the lee side back a bit, which makes a better angle and reduced snags a lot with a crabclaw. I need to able to tilt the mast to windward (for going downwind), so the mast step needs to be able to pivot in all directions!
Súper emocionante me gustó mucho tu video
thanks!
Hi Bro
Like your creative style, l have small steady sails on my 34ft monohull, they are ex P class sails modified to use as jib and staysail. My main is off a trailer sailer with the top cut off to make it a gaff rig, works well,
It's surprising what one can make work out off unwanted GOLD.
Love your ability to make do with what's available and affordable.
Cheers from MS Matakana.
oh definitely! I think I recognize your boat from trademe, it looks interesting!
@@dominictarrsailing Ex Wahine lifeboat, then Outward Bounds work boat.
Good to see you back m8!!
thanks Dan!
Fun stuff.......if its warm, dry suit if not. Was always a fan of the Atlantic Proa "Three Cheers" (no shunting)
Hmm, It looks like Three Cheers is a trimaran. Cheers was an atlantic proa. But I've sailed several tacking proa and I think I prefer the pacific tack. Ama lifting (even if not flying) feeling like a very skinny monohull. I havn't actually sailed on a trimaran. Seems like it might have two bad tacks, but I'll reserve judgement until I've actually been on a good one!
@@dominictarrsailing You are correct, I got my "Cheers" confused and relied on memory. It was also a shunter. Im probably confusing it with the Berque brothers Micromegas 3. Never sailed one but looks like fun
@@skaraborgcraft oh yes! that is a very beautiful boat and impressive journey! that one is a tacking outrigger. I have built two tacking outriggers in the past. I think it's a pretty good format and easier to make than a shunter. Having sailed those I decided I like the pacific (ama up) tack better, so on a shunting proa I get two good tacks instead of one good and one bad.
Keep experimenting and improving your rig and it will lead you to the next adventure....
Love the content Dominic. Another informative video.
Welcome back to the North Island and congratulations on the new speed record! Awesome to see a 4m boat with a tarp sail going crazy fast 👍
Are you a convert to the new sail design?
Thank you! I'm still just learning it so it's too soon to say whether I like it better but it does have potential!
I am thinking about building a simple boat to sail with my family( two adult two kids), something simple, light and fast that I can put on the roof of my car.
So far I am thinking about building a proa with a used lake canoe as the main hull or building a oz goose, what would you do Dominic? How would you go about this?
Also did you use special plywood for your proa, or regular hardware store stuff? I wonder if cheap plywood would delaminate quickly.
I have experience sailing a big catamaran (30ft) but never sailed smaller boats.
Thank you for all the work you put into your video and experimentation, always a joy to watch!
I have to admit that oz goose looks extremely impressive and sails way faster than you think it would! You can put a proa on the roof but it's never gonna be as fast to set up as an oz goose would be. There is a lot of rigging and lashing vs put unstayed mast in a hole. A proa is gonna require a lot of tinkering, especially if you cobble it together from other boats, so you need to have time for that and also really I think you need to live by the water and can leave it set up. I only pack down the proa before a passage, if I had to put it on the roof of a car, then set it up, then go sailing, then dissasemble it then back on the roof etc... you'd probably spend more time un/packing it than sailing.
I would definitely recommend using proper marine ply, for one it has much better surface finish than exterior hardware store ply, and anyway, the epoxy is so expensive you might as well use the good plywood too
Muito bom
Wow, that is very impressive. Subscribed. I'd like to see if it can go upwind though.
it can indeed go up wind, although like most multihull you go a lot faster if you bear off a bit. I'm gonna measure windward performance once I am a place without significant current
Thanks Dominic im glad your still sailing. Which way did you go when you came back to Auck from welly and the chatams. East or West.
Im impressed with your proa. It sort of looks like its evolving into a hobie cat with the net in the middle.
Ill also add you inspired me a bit. I bought that proa building book you brought up in an older vid. The plans look pretty complex. I might have a crack one day.
@@jonymanay the west coat. Ive come up that way 3 times now. Much easier to plan because its just a straight haul to cape reianga. Just need 4 or 5 days of steady westerlies, and prefurably not too crazy wind in between farewell spit and taranaki because that bit is gonna be rough anyway! The east coast is easy above east cape, but below that its actually quite trecherous, especially around waiarapa, and its not just a straight line, you have to go around several capes so unlikely to get a good wind the whole way!
Great stuff. Inspiring. Thanks!
A freestanding (stayless) mast might make shunting easier.
It might, but it would also create the need for other complications, for example if the sail just pivots in the center, now the sail area is too far back and there will be a lot of weather helm... so then you need large rudders (vs not even having a rudder currently) and one thing I really enjoy about this boat is being able to balance it by adjusting the mast. That wouldn't work with a fixed mast.
Amazng Channel!!!
I wonder if you could use a square sail instead of a lug sail, so you could just sheet in the other end instead of having to flip the yard under the mast.
Another crazy thought is have you considered the possibility of a planing hull instead of a displacement hull? Dinghies are small hulls capable of high speed .
Well the hull is pretty wide and flat (40cm wide) I think I am getting some planing effect when going fast.
I think the trouble with a square sail, with halyard in the middle is to sail across or up wind you need the halyard attachment point to be forward so that there is more tension in the luff, especially so that the front of the sail doesn't back (as you see in the first sailing session)
maybe you could have a way to slide the attachment point? but then it might work out simpler overall just to have a designated luff
Excellent stuff. I’d really like to see more footage of the electric outboard on the proa. I’ve been using a Canadian style aluminum canoe with an outrigger and sunfish sail. Thinking of building a plywood hull like yours and seeing how they compare.
I might be able to arrange that, it goes pretty fast with the outboard, actually so fast that the shaft really needs a faring... then could actually run it at full power
what are you hoping to achieve with a plywood hull?
what is your ama from? it looks like a really good wave piercing shape!
@@dominictarrsailing yeah I imagine it would move pretty well seeing how fast you can sail.
I’d like to just test a more traditional Polynesian style canoe more than anything. But I believe more freeboard would help with waves and have a skinnier canoe vs one that widens out significantly in the middle may allow for more speed. The ama I have is a rotomolded take apart called an expandacraft. The owner/inventor of them lives close to me. He gave me one in exchange for working for him. It works well pierced the water really well. I just don’t know if it will hold up under 12kts of wind when I’m flying the big sail. It may want to separate at the joints because it is soft plastic.
I have some fishing spots just off the beach within a few miles and I can easily sail out to them but a lot of times the current and wind prevents sailing back (at least within a reasonable time frame) so I have been looking at outboard options like the hangkai so I can sail out and use the outboard to land on the reef then motor back if the conditions don’t allow for easy sailing.
Thanks again for the reply.
@@YdocFrench I looked at the hangkai but it seems really loud. The one I got, see my video on the setup on my cat, I chose because it was a direct drive, motor at the bottom no gearbox that needs oilchanges, only one moving part and some bearings. can have a conversation while emotoring! I'd still rather sail though
@@YdocFrench your hull is probably very efficient at low speed, but also it's designed to be stable enough on it's own so there is also definitely more touching the water than you need with an outrigger. How fast can it go currently?
Sailing fast isn't just about a faster hull, and my hull isn't even really designed for max speed, though it is quite light, but I can go as fast as I can more because it's is controllable and stable and feels safe to push it hard with a lot of wind. It's that I can hold on to the power. Definitely having the hull now decked over helps massively because I don't need to worry about taking on water. I'm doubtful that a skinnier faster hull would work for me unless the boat was longer, because the bouyancy would have to come down. If you look at like, the hobie 14, yes they can sail very fast but they have so little freeboard that they can pitchpole quite suddenly - where as I have never capsized my proa from sailing with too much wind. Only one time as a test, and early on, one time in light air when I was backed and trying to turn the boat back around by holding the sail out.
Great vid. I know this is not probably what you are aiming for, but it would be nice to be dryer on such a boat as dinghy cruising would be a nice thing to do in a fast boat like that tacking proa you went for a trip in, I found this one by Bernd Kohler called a CATAPROA, which might be slightly dryer, thoughts?
So I did do a dinghy cruise in this boat, but sadly I lost the camera near the end of the trip so it didn't become a video. but it was a great trip. I did make some shorts during trip though.
If you want a boat like this to be dry I think the main thing is you have to sail it slow. If you keep it under 5 knots you should be fine ;) maybe 7 knots is doable even? I think there is some design space to having things like splash deflectors but once you get near 10 knots that goes out the window as water just goes everywhere. Also, sailing downwind is quite a bit drier. In most of these videos I'm day sailing and will return in an hour or so, so I choose beam reaches or close reaches. But I did go cruising in it one time, and had a lot more down wind runs. Personally I think I find it more fun to sail fast and wet, but certainly staying warm and dry is the limiting factor.
Another great vid Mr Pianoforte. Now I have tied your Facebook ID to your TH-cam ID. I guess I'm slow!
Although your lug is boomed, it is functionally rather like a Trad dipping lug, meaning they also had to find means of tightening the luff! But the likeness is also that they too were tacked down to the stemhead. They had/ have a reputation for power on any kind of a reach because, like an asymmetric spinnaker, they exert a lifting force vector, giving proportionately less heeling moment.
You could be on to something!
Having said that i realised that almost all trad proa rigs tack to the stem. Maybe its because the 4 cornered sail gives good area and maybe to do with the angle of the sail's rotation axis; the line from stemhead to mast head?
Yes I've been watching a few videos about dipping lugs! Phil Bolger thought they were the most rig for the least rigging too. I like to have good light air performance and it really does seem like a pretty easy way to get a massive sail area, and not as badly behaved as a spinnaker. I also love the story about luggers outrunning the revenue service!
"Luggers outrun the Revenus Cutters " by being able to point higher !
@@michaelknuckey4405 I love that story. dipping lug is very uncluttered. unstayed mast with just the halyard set to windward. What was the revenue cutter? trying to figure that out... gaff rig with 2 square sails, massive bow sprit, several split headsails and loads of rigging? I wouldn't really be surprised if that couldn't sail as high. dipping lug looks like it could be balanced for any point of sail too and would be great off the wind (no spinnaker needed) without too much weather helm if you take the tack line over
That was amazing. Thanks for sharing, I learned a lot about proa sailing characteristics. What's the smallest you think a proa could be and still carry about 250 lbs? I'd love to have one on my sailboat, but I'm a 38 ft cutter rig with a self-tacking staysail so space if very limited.
@@sailingmare6563 sorry this is a metric channel. That is 113 kg. Im about 65, but i have had 2 people sailing it a few times now, and also 3 people paddling it. With 3 people its submerged close to the drains so should really add plugs (only need drains when sailin hard or towing)
My question is how much space do you have to fit it? Its 40cm wide, and 4.2m long. The ama fits inside the waka. Would the boom clear it if it was on deck?
Thanks 🙏
whooooosh!
What did you use to record your speed? You're getting great real world info 👍
gopro which has gps built in, and then the gps data aligned with video. previously I have recorded the gps data on phone but it's a difficult to get it aligned with the video. Makes a big difference to see what is really going on!
AMAZINGNES!!!
just curious would it be possible to have a sail like this on your main sailing boat ? , keep up the good work
certainly! ;) but it's much easier and faster to test out new sail ideas on a smaller boat!!!
this is awesome DONT think about putting a square rigged sail on this boat...
What do you think about the big boat being a proa?
There is very few of those, of course you need more safety and maybe twin mast as you don't want to switch a huge sail while shunting.
Another thing I am curious is about the planing hull vs displacement, you proa is light and have a flat bottom, so it must almost be planning, a lot of small sailing vessel have planning hull (thinking about the oz gooze) What do you think about the tradeoff between those?
@@alexforget my understanding is that many fast multihull use planing to some degree often having a flattish U shaped bottom. Even waka ama paddling boats do!
Some trimaran, for example weta trimaran, actually has quite a wide center hull which planes, with very narrow ama that are in displacement.
@@alexforget im definitely not gonna convert my pahi into a proa. Although it would be a fairly good hull shape for it if you found one with one wrecked hull or found an unfinished project with just one hull. Id much rather build a larger proa from scratch, but i think ill save a lot of time if i learn more from the small proa befor i seriously consider building a larger one.
👍!!!
😂What about spray deflectors like Jzero or Madness ? great proa cheers RC
@@richardcalvert387 i have tried that and the spray found a way round. Possibly my hull shape is too splashy. If it was longer could be skinnier with finer entry
What are you using for the visualisation of the data?
Virb Edit
Very fast for a small proa! How long is the main hull and do you know the area of this new sail?
it's 4.2 meters (because that's what would fit across my catamaran without sticking out) the sail is a little more than 8 square meters I think. less than 9. The boat is only about 60kg rigged, so sail area displacement ratio is mid thirties (including my body weight)
@@dominictarrsailing that’s pretty fast for a boat that size!
@@markpalmquist thanks yeah its pretty close to the theoretical maximum based on square root waterline length, and lots of things that could still be improved
@@dominictarrsailing depending on how much your boat is heeling you may be able to squeeze out another knot of speed with a slightly larger sail. The length water line formula can be broken by a proa and catamaran if the hulls are skinny.
@@markpalmquist yes, or even better a more efficient sail (with better lift/drag ratio) next I'm adding tell tails so I can actually see the flow, and I've also been thinking about how have adjustable tension along the spars and hopefully take some wrinkles out. So far I've made do without that, but that is gotta be interfering with flow. and if I add a hiking strap along the windward gunnel and a better platform I'll be able to sit out a bit further and thus have a bit more righting moment
What do you use to overlay the speed and graph on your vid?
@@nautikarl i use virb edit, after extracting the gpx file from the gopro footage using goprotelemetryextractor.com/free/ its a bit clumsy. Gopro has its own telemetry overlay stuff but it doesnt show knots, which is unacceptable!
Good Show !
Brave for Midwinter !
More Videos Please !@@dominictarrsailing
@@michaelknuckey4405 haha, the thermals helped a lot, even wet, much warmer than the wind blowing on wet bare legs! and not staying out too long. Oh and the foam life jacket is very good insulation too!
isnt this called a "tanja" sail?
my understanding is that tanja sail is has parallel spars, although this is getting close to that
Sorry, did a like before you expressed a preference for a comment.
You spelled Lithuanian city Šiauliai a bit wrong. :)