IODIS: I executed my probe rush perfectly with 20000 APM, killing all my opponents lings and leaving them with 1 drone. But because of zerg's imba power to rebuild, they soon matched my worker count and hit me with a burrow rush, abusing my early lack of vision. Every time I tried to move out, more roaches popped up out of nowhere and attacked my drones. I eventually managed to win the game -- which really is a sign of how much much more skilled I am and how the game should never have been so close -- but I'm sending this replay anyway because it shows how unfair zerg's comeback potential is. Name: Zozo Rank: I'm banned from playing ranked, don't ask me Race: Protoss
Depending on the kind of bow you use, you need a LOT of strength btw. For a hunting bow with low draw weight it is quite easy. However, a war bow (if you use it to fight other humans in armor) the bow has a lot of draw weight and it needs a lot of physical strength to wield it properly. Even more than wielding a sword. And a bow which is easy to draw (requiring little strenght) doesn't pack a punch and doesn't penetrate armor. (That's why it is ridicilous to see physically weak characters in hollywood movies use bows to fight. Utter bullshit and has nothing to do with reality.) Guess this nerd stuff gets me kicked out of the birthday party too :(
Also, once you get to around full metal plate, penetration becomes straight up impossible anyway, unless you find a gap or something similar. Or use a gun.
I don’t know how feasible it would be, but I’d love to see 2v2 with a pro and a bot of their choice on each team. It’d be very interesting to see how a human adapts their play to support an AI teammate.
Bot+human archon vs another bot is possible. But unless blizz opens bnet to bots like they did for alphastar, only 0-1 humans can be involved in bot matches
great bot back and forth! 0:44 at this point if zerg was a real person not AI they would guaranteed 100% lose 2:32 at this point a non-ai-zerg would guaranteed win 4:45 at this point a non-ai-zerg would be guaranteed loss 5:38 maybe harstem could win but not most of us
I'll try to set something up. Everyone that I spoke to in the past years that worked on any type of AI have been super friendly and open to explaining it to a complete noob like me so I have good hopes as well.
The fact that 10 heavily damaged probes can kill 10 lings without losing a single unit is absolutely mental to me. Like I know what mineral walking and stacking is but wtf.
It's really incredible to watch AI replays; it really goes to show how much of SC2 we've still yet to explore. For example, that worker micro at the beginning was so awesome, I want so bad to see pros pull off something like that in a real match. Also, it's really hard to find interesting replays because with AIs you never know if it's gonna take 2 hours to kill a single extractor, and the commentary really helps a lot to understand the difference in decisionmaking between AIs and humans. So, I love this format!
Well, you won't. Because an AI is a thousand times better at micro than any human, no matter if it is Serral, Maru or whoever. I loved to watch the games as well, WTF was the Zerg AI "thinking" when it sent his drones after the retreating probes, only to get massacred? Looking forward to the interview with the developer while playing against the bot.
A worker rush in a pro tournament is so bad it might get you banned for match fixing lol. There are many interesting strategies in sc2 that would only work with inhuman micro, so in that sense I agree with you, but for humans most of the viable strategies have been tried and figured out at this point.
Zozo is actually just the ultimate probe rusher! There's not much else in the bot (At least for now, I don't know what their plan is). He even said that the Void Ray transition was mainly to counter floating CCs! And it's very effective: Low-Mid level bots (like mine) get absolutely crushed by this!
The reason why the probes were effective against the drones and lings when they were fighting in open space is because they were targeting the probe with the lowest HP. This probe was running away whilst the rest were attacking, so the lings/drones were trying to get around the wall of probes to get to the low HP one. This is genius. If the drones/lings had only attack moved, then this wouldn't have mattered. -----> A short analysis for the first game if anyone would've liked to know. One instance of this to prove my analysis can be seen at 3:07, except that the probe there doesn't have low HP. Congratulations to which creator created Zozo!
me at 2:30 - "ok, this one's over, lemme scroll a few minutes forward to the next game..." *me, scrolling a few minutes forward -- game still not over, Protoss is now actually vastly ahead..." -- "WTFF.... O_O !! "
The ai seems to be tunneling a singular drone so that allows the others to continue attacking, any human would micro the Lings to attack whatever was closest
I think the probes were only losing to the drones at the ramp because the drones were on creep, and the protoss AI failed to account for the increased movement speed of drones on creep when microing damaged probes away. We can see (later) that off creep, the probes easily win against even zerglines, let alone drones. edit: I realized that drones don't move faster on creep, so it must be just the AI having different directives when microing their forces between fights. For example, when in the base, the zerg was much more concerned with saving their workers, since it's good for the zerg if they just stalemate, since the protoss won't be mining. But later on down the ramp with lings, the zerg must decided that it has an advantage, so it's more ok with losing units to trade with the probes, and in the process, it got outmicro'd.
About your Comment ~ 10:30 , thats actually historically accurate, just with more severe Consequences.Homo Neandertalis where the really Muscular Humans that went around with Clubs, Spears and overall raw power. They had ginormous brains that where uses like 90% on their bodycontroll and stuff. The Homo Sapiens instead where rather weak in comparison and had smaller brains. Seeing how with their weak bodys theyd get oneshot by every animal at that time they had to spec into ranged attacks, thus created Forms of ranged weaponry and in the end bows and arrows.. we all know how the end turned out: Homo Neandertalis died out, while Homo Sapiens reighned surpreme ;P
"The répertoire", I always love when you use French words in your videos, it's cool and the prononciation is okay, not perfect of course but it's normal and I like the fact that you're trying ! 😊
everytime i watch these bot videos im more and more impressed that DM years ago was able to create a ~6500 mmr bot with no higher than a few hundred APM. every other bot has not come close and it's been almost 5 years
@@luxon4 di-star is similar strength to alphastar. It only plays ZvZ on 1 map, but impressive as it only trained on 300gpus... which is a lot, but also a lot less power than alphastar had for training. (Harstem has a video playing against it) The TitanEx1 one (likely the Chinese one you are thinking of) looked very strong, but their demo was so limited that who knows how good it actually is.
You can take over replays, you would just need the pro-player and access to the AI for them to take their spots. AI might have trouble starting from the middle of the game though.
What kind of data do these bots work from? Do they process the plain pixel matrix that should be projected on the screen + fire plain click events with xy coordinates, or is there some sort of sdk, that StarCraft provides, that gives access to the visible units, provides an easy ways to produce and control units, etc?
the weird part was that if the queen had just a-mooved towards the stalker it would have won, the evilzoe bot made _weird_ decisions like that on several occasions, almost like the person who made it's opponent had had a look at it's decision matrices.
@@evernewb2073 yeah, it was less the stalker micro and moreso the negative micro of the queen i suppose. Harstem didnt even mention the fact that that stalker is a legend lmao
Please do a vs. AI series with voice over in depth commentary. Try to get in contact with some of the teams who made the different bots to get some interview voice over or cut in there. You vs AI, then a match where you choose an AI as a control or use last episode’s AI vs current AI
I think the start of this video shows us that high APM does not always make a better player. 20 thousand APM player lost 5 probes while killing exactly 0 3000 APM drones. I think what the difference in what came after is thast, Zerglings do not have the ability to use the non collision strat, which is why they were trading infinetely worse than the drones did (funnily enough since there were 0 drones lost in the initial rush, infinetely worse is mathemtaically correct if we only look at the amount of kills)
What about instead of an exclusive vc system, it’s inclusive. The questionnaire figures out your post history and creates diverse groups with differing opinions and assigns you a chat roulette that leaves you in the lobby for a week. Get to know people or don’t. Friendship proxies idk how to counter. I’m silver
Other than something like a fast wall blind counter, I believe probe rush is unbeatable by humans. Bot probe micro with shield regen can kill any amount of a-moved workers.
The best scripted bots that exist are only like diamond level, but probe rush (as silly as it sounds) is literally unbeatable by humans because of the combo of bot micro and shield regen. eg. 40 a-moved scvs would lose to 10 probes without killing a single probe. I'd bet on Zozo if it played Maru.
Harstem's history knowledge needs some work. While pretty much everything was wrong, I'm going to assess the strength thing. Bows require a lot of strength because you want to use heavy bows that hit hard, especially in war. Strength is more important for archers in war than for dueling with a sword which is why it's weird that they've gotten this image of being a women's weapon requiring dexterity rather than strength to use
@@Donpovich Yes until platinum if you know the mineral tricks (click on the mineral) and A+click. You also can worker rush with zerg with some zerglings, this is better
IODIS: I executed my probe rush perfectly with 20000 APM, killing all my opponents lings and leaving them with 1 drone. But because of zerg's imba power to rebuild, they soon matched my worker count and hit me with a burrow rush, abusing my early lack of vision. Every time I tried to move out, more roaches popped up out of nowhere and attacked my drones. I eventually managed to win the game -- which really is a sign of how much much more skilled I am and how the game should never have been so close -- but I'm sending this replay anyway because it shows how unfair zerg's comeback potential is.
Name: Zozo
Rank: I'm banned from playing ranked, don't ask me
Race: Protoss
lmao
pros actually micro workers in the start of a game, but I doubt that its humanly possible to do it on the lvl of this AI's :D
Zerg imba indeed
I heard this in Harstems voice lol
When I thought this can´t be more on point and funny you drop the bomb:
"Rank: I'm banned from playing ranked, don't ask me"
My respects! 1000%
The AI videos are always super interesting, especially when you're 1v1-ing them yourself- that interview would be an awesome video.
It would be cool to see pros play against on of these bots. They seem a little dumb in some ways but are pretty good overall
A heroic group of 1 HP probes managed to out trade over 8 zerglings and a swarm of drones. Must be the probes from the game's cinematics.
Real Probius
"OK, current apm for the zerg is at 14,000." Looks at roaches dancing in circles lmao
Zerg defended so well and then just suicided all his lings and drones after he already won
Depending on the kind of bow you use, you need a LOT of strength btw.
For a hunting bow with low draw weight it is quite easy.
However, a war bow (if you use it to fight other humans in armor) the bow has a lot of draw weight and it needs a lot of physical strength to wield it properly. Even more than wielding a sword.
And a bow which is easy to draw (requiring little strenght) doesn't pack a punch and doesn't penetrate armor.
(That's why it is ridicilous to see physically weak characters in hollywood movies use bows to fight. Utter bullshit and has nothing to do with reality.)
Guess this nerd stuff gets me kicked out of the birthday party too :(
Anyone who has tried a bow knows how fricking hard it is to just shoot an arrow straight
Also, once you get to around full metal plate, penetration becomes straight up impossible anyway, unless you find a gap or something similar. Or use a gun.
I don’t know how feasible it would be, but I’d love to see 2v2 with a pro and a bot of their choice on each team. It’d be very interesting to see how a human adapts their play to support an AI teammate.
Nice idea, but the bots are restricted to only play 1v1
Or how an AI supports a human.
archon with a bot?
Bot+human archon vs another bot is possible. But unless blizz opens bnet to bots like they did for alphastar, only 0-1 humans can be involved in bot matches
everyone would always pick alphastar
3:20 even the overlord is like "no no no no no"
great bot back and forth!
0:44 at this point if zerg was a real person not AI they would guaranteed 100% lose
2:32 at this point a non-ai-zerg would guaranteed win
4:45 at this point a non-ai-zerg would be guaranteed loss
5:38 maybe harstem could win but not most of us
Dang, I would've never guessed that with enough APM, Probes are a counter to lings
3:22 "Surely it is the incorrect call"
*10 probes kill 8 lings with 0 losses*
"Stuff with the horses" -- Drawn and Quartered. Man what an effective deterrent that was !!
I hope to see you do more bot videos, the most recent probots champion was a protoss bot named NegativeZero. I would love to see you fight that one
I'll try to set something up. Everyone that I spoke to in the past years that worked on any type of AI have been super friendly and open to explaining it to a complete noob like me so I have good hopes as well.
NegativeZero took a GM streamer 3 attempts to beat. Always been an impressive bot, but only recently became human-playable.
The fact that 10 heavily damaged probes can kill 10 lings without losing a single unit is absolutely mental to me. Like I know what mineral walking and stacking is but wtf.
I just love watching you cast bot matches, they're my favorite videos on your channel!
It's really incredible to watch AI replays; it really goes to show how much of SC2 we've still yet to explore. For example, that worker micro at the beginning was so awesome, I want so bad to see pros pull off something like that in a real match.
Also, it's really hard to find interesting replays because with AIs you never know if it's gonna take 2 hours to kill a single extractor, and the commentary really helps a lot to understand the difference in decisionmaking between AIs and humans.
So, I love this format!
Well, you won't. Because an AI is a thousand times better at micro than any human, no matter if it is Serral, Maru or whoever.
I loved to watch the games as well, WTF was the Zerg AI "thinking" when it sent his drones after the retreating probes, only to get massacred?
Looking forward to the interview with the developer while playing against the bot.
it's not possible to do this for any human. it's too much precision too many time in 1/10 of a second.
guys he said *like* that, not identical.
A worker rush in a pro tournament is so bad it might get you banned for match fixing lol. There are many interesting strategies in sc2 that would only work with inhuman micro, so in that sense I agree with you, but for humans most of the viable strategies have been tried and figured out at this point.
That evil Zoe overlord breakdance though
Zozo is actually just the ultimate probe rusher! There's not much else in the bot (At least for now, I don't know what their plan is). He even said that the Void Ray transition was mainly to counter floating CCs! And it's very effective: Low-Mid level bots (like mine) get absolutely crushed by this!
love the ai videos, PLEASE TRY TO DO THE INTERVIEW WHILE FIGHTING AN AI, i tihnk this is something we all want to see.
The reason why the probes were effective against the drones and lings when they were fighting in open space is because they were targeting the probe with the lowest HP. This probe was running away whilst the rest were attacking, so the lings/drones were trying to get around the wall of probes to get to the low HP one. This is genius. If the drones/lings had only attack moved, then this wouldn't have mattered. -----> A short analysis for the first game if anyone would've liked to know. One instance of this to prove my analysis can be seen at 3:07, except that the probe there doesn't have low HP. Congratulations to which creator created Zozo!
me at 2:30 - "ok, this one's over, lemme scroll a few minutes forward to the next game..."
*me, scrolling a few minutes forward -- game still not over, Protoss is now actually vastly ahead..." -- "WTFF.... O_O !! "
yeah, so its pretty safe to say we don't have to worry about our ai overlords anytime soon if this vid is anything to go by
The ai seems to be tunneling a singular drone so that allows the others to continue attacking, any human would micro the Lings to attack whatever was closest
I think the probes were only losing to the drones at the ramp because the drones were on creep, and the protoss AI failed to account for the increased movement speed of drones on creep when microing damaged probes away. We can see (later) that off creep, the probes easily win against even zerglines, let alone drones.
edit: I realized that drones don't move faster on creep, so it must be just the AI having different directives when microing their forces between fights. For example, when in the base, the zerg was much more concerned with saving their workers, since it's good for the zerg if they just stalemate, since the protoss won't be mining. But later on down the ramp with lings, the zerg must decided that it has an advantage, so it's more ok with losing units to trade with the probes, and in the process, it got outmicro'd.
The AI left one final structure and refused to destroy it for a second. I can see he is learning to BM his opponent.
8:45 Harstem unlocked: Religion!
This game wouldn't be close if Zozo was programmed to do fast mining technique
Harstem: “Of course probes don’t trade very well against lings”
Zozo:* kills 8 lings without losing a single probe*
Harstem: wow😮
3:55 Overlord be like: GET ME BACK TO ZA FIGHT
10:11 You're literally describing how Neanderthals died out XD
About your Comment ~ 10:30 , thats actually historically accurate, just with more severe Consequences.Homo Neandertalis where the really Muscular Humans that went around with Clubs, Spears and overall raw power. They had ginormous brains that where uses like 90% on their bodycontroll and stuff. The Homo Sapiens instead where rather weak in comparison and had smaller brains. Seeing how with their weak bodys theyd get oneshot by every animal at that time they had to spec into ranged attacks, thus created Forms of ranged weaponry and in the end bows and arrows.. we all know how the end turned out: Homo Neandertalis died out, while Homo Sapiens reighned surpreme ;P
Here is the chatman commercial if people are interested th-cam.com/video/SpS2D0HhID4/w-d-xo.html
It'll be great to see Harstem play an AI bot!
For speed mining can you max out the shift queue and it still mining
LETS GO I LOVE AI VS AI.
MORE MORE MORE MOREEEEEEE!!!!!!
Damn did u look at the creep spread, it reached zozo's main.
17:18 that ai bm xD
"The répertoire", I always love when you use French words in your videos, it's cool and the prononciation is okay, not perfect of course but it's normal and I like the fact that you're trying ! 😊
Harstem came to my birthday party... He spent the entire time telling me what jokes to avoid at my own party :(
everytime i watch these bot videos im more and more impressed that DM years ago was able to create a ~6500 mmr bot with no higher than a few hundred APM. every other bot has not come close and it's been almost 5 years
Hobbyist scripted bots vs an engineering team spending $millions on TPU time to train a machine-learning bot
@@Ketroc The chinese ones were from a company doing RL and it's still so far away. idk about their compute budget
@@luxon4 di-star is similar strength to alphastar. It only plays ZvZ on 1 map, but impressive as it only trained on 300gpus... which is a lot, but also a lot less power than alphastar had for training. (Harstem has a video playing against it)
The TitanEx1 one (likely the Chinese one you are thinking of) looked very strong, but their demo was so limited that who knows how good it actually is.
Who knew that a drone is more powerful than a zergling with perfect micro due to the power of the mineral walking trick. That's actually hilarious.
10:15 Sidmeyers Civilization be like
You can take over replays, you would just need the pro-player and access to the AI for them to take their spots. AI might have trouble starting from the middle of the game though.
What kind of data do these bots work from? Do they process the plain pixel matrix that should be projected on the screen + fire plain click events with xy coordinates, or is there some sort of sdk, that StarCraft provides, that gives access to the visible units, provides an easy ways to produce and control units, etc?
Yes, there is a bot-interface, dating back from the Alphastar project, which bot-builders nowadays still use.
wild that a stalker with perfect micro can beat a queen in a 1v1, never thought that was possible
the weird part was that if the queen had just a-mooved towards the stalker it would have won, the evilzoe bot made _weird_ decisions like that on several occasions, almost like the person who made it's opponent had had a look at it's decision matrices.
@@evernewb2073 yeah, it was less the stalker micro and moreso the negative micro of the queen i suppose. Harstem didnt even mention the fact that that stalker is a legend lmao
Iwanna see more AI stuff. Thanks for all the Content Kevin
Why did Zerg stop mining?
I didn't know bots like this were a thing but they are pretty interesting to watch, also over 5000 APM just like me lol
that looked like Harstem playing the toss.. its the same APM
You're a content MACHINE!
3:22 ; This , dear zerg players is why you dont give vespene to your overlords !
Thats another great series idea: 'Can he save this game?' And let pro players play from hopeless position against AI or viewers.
Please do a vs. AI series with voice over in depth commentary. Try to get in contact with some of the teams who made the different bots to get some interview voice over or cut in there. You vs AI, then a match where you choose an AI as a control or use last episode’s AI vs current AI
Great content as always
Yay! I love the bot videos!
Challenge for Harstem: 1v1 a bot, but you're only allowed half the bots APM.
That drone micro though.
oh my got!!!!!
That was freaking awesome!!!!!!!!
2v2 ladder with an AI partner
how well can Harstem learn his partner strength and weaknesses?
how well can the dutch and robot climb?
Probe rushes don't work for humans, but humans don't have 4 digit apm.
I think the start of this video shows us that high APM does not always make a better player. 20 thousand APM player lost 5 probes while killing exactly 0 3000 APM drones.
I think what the difference in what came after is thast, Zerglings do not have the ability to use the non collision strat, which is why they were trading infinetely worse than the drones did (funnily enough since there were 0 drones lost in the initial rush, infinetely worse is mathemtaically correct if we only look at the amount of kills)
I was just watching the Captains old Alphastar casts and he comes out this lol
So I have to ask, you mentioned it on ladder, You telling me one of these things could get me one day???
What about instead of an exclusive vc system, it’s inclusive. The questionnaire figures out your post history and creates diverse groups with differing opinions and assigns you a chat roulette that leaves you in the lobby for a week. Get to know people or don’t. Friendship proxies idk how to counter. I’m silver
What rank will you guess if you see this game in Rank Roulette ?
I'd report both accounts to my dad who owns blizzard.
Wooooo!!!! Gotta love it 😀
I stopped watching for a bit and didnt realize this was AI and seriously thought this high ass apm was just the new norm. The confusion was so real
Look at that creep spread holy shit
bow requires very impressive back strength
How can he control drone so good and jist suicide ling to probe.
Friend group parasites are real, I want a CV and some references of previous friend groups otherwise do not talk to me casually.
hahahahahaha, " any previous references we can call? Can't be family members"
This just proves that Toss is no-brain faction.
J'aime que tu as appris le Francais pendant 2 ans!
not sure why you chose this game but cool to see our bots casted
I want to see you fighting against an AI 20k apm worker rush!
harstem u can take over replays one of my friends found the options for it so u can give reynor it
I loved the bourrauwing action!
13:10 so THAT's why your French pronunciation is so good! Made me scratch my head sometimes while watching your videos...
Dude, those bots have almost as much APM as Reynor.
i think the programmer for the protoss bot didn't know prismatic alignment (or whatever the void ray ability is called) exists.
I think his void ray follow-up is just an afterthought... literally exists cuz probes can't kill a Terran that lifts their cc.
These are machine learning made AIs. No programmer involved in that way.
Zoe needs to work on not wasting drone time waiting to become a spawning pool.
I once did a probe rush and won the game with 4 APM. This AI is just a tryhard.
having fun with the dolls?so old like me
You could talk to Ketroc about these bots
Can Harstem beat a bot that probe rushes like this?
Other than something like a fast wall blind counter, I believe probe rush is unbeatable by humans. Bot probe micro with shield regen can kill any amount of a-moved workers.
The best scripted bots that exist are only like diamond level, but probe rush (as silly as it sounds) is literally unbeatable by humans because of the combo of bot micro and shield regen. eg. 40 a-moved scvs would lose to 10 probes without killing a single probe. I'd bet on Zozo if it played Maru.
LOWKO DINNER TIME!!!!
peak starcraft!
Who wins 8 lings or 10 probs... How do they expect us to play Zerg, if 8 lings can't beat 10 already beaten up probs.
Harstem vs. Zozo maybe?
Absolutely insane! Imma have no friends because of this ahahaha
Is Bots Imba Or Does Bots Suck?
so probes have the advantage of faster shield recovery so they auto lose woth this in PvP agains a similarly capable micro AI
Hell yeah to flaming msn chat bots haha
Is this AlphaStar's dad!?!
Evil zoe was winning until it went bat crap crazy when lings came.
Harstem's history knowledge needs some work.
While pretty much everything was wrong, I'm going to assess the strength thing. Bows require a lot of strength because you want to use heavy bows that hit hard, especially in war. Strength is more important for archers in war than for dueling with a sword which is why it's weird that they've gotten this image of being a women's weapon requiring dexterity rather than strength to use
super cool! abusing shield regen with apm!!
this can be done with 200 apm and actually work
I am assuring you it won't work against most bots if your Probe rush has only 200 apm
@@BlindMidget not against bots against ppl I should've specified
@@Donpovich Yes until platinum if you know the mineral tricks (click on the mineral) and A+click. You also can worker rush with zerg with some zerglings, this is better
I can do it up until master I have replays. Recent ones no bs attached just straight up out microing with workers and worker all ins
@@Donpovich Oh I thought it was a question ^^ Sorry
GG for betting master with workers, It's super hard on the diamond level for me
can someone ask Blizzard if they can modernize the AI :D
more of this