Well I guess it’s my turn to add my two cents for what it’s worth I don’t necessarily believe grooved axes were held in the hand for one thing there is not enough leverage or force to be able to chop wood of any great quantities this way. The next thing is what about all the axes They have been found in dry caves and in the deserts of our southwest that actually still have hafting still on them. Why would an individual spend all that time grooving a stone and then putting it in his hand and not Halfting it. Just my two cents.
Agreed with all you wrote. I would also add to your part about leverage--That the amount of force needed to chop/cut any material using the hand-held method would put tremendous stress (pain) at the leverage points of the elbow, wrist and shoulder over a moderate amount of time. It's illogical.
Lenny, hands hold everything. Tools were not used enough to produce hand or especially finger polish. An adze or groved axe would be used longer than flake tools. Flake tools used for one task doesn't have finger holds or grips worn into it nor was it intentional. Hands fit everything they touched! No need for finger grips!
Very interesting theory. My family has property with lots of Native American artifacts. One particularly nice specimen is an “axe.” It is highly polished with a groove around its entire circumference. I was recently pondering how it was hafted and I just couldn’t settle on a way that made sense. It seems too thick and unnecessarily cumbersome. In addition, the heel of the stone looks to be heavily used, but not the blade. It began making more sense to me that the stone was a hand tool, maybe a Mano? Or perhaps just an in-hafted axe. Your proposition will make me take a closer look.
🎉 Thank you! Very informative. I’ve been collecting a lot of artifacts here in Flint Michigan. You might want to think about coming to Flint! It certainly undergone a rebirth with the Charlesmont foundation who created the culture of center, including the flint, Michigan large, the upper hatch, in the community, Playhouse, and planetarium. my name is Bob Hendren MO address in Flint. I’ll be happy to provide you and I hope you’ll take about making a trip here in the spring although I’m sure we are both under Artifacts the long stream badge when conditions were very cold and there was a lot of snow.
I agree, at least with your point that many stones are inaccurately claimed to have been mounted. Although a lot of the specifics regarding NA tools and weapons remain a mystery, the difficulty of securing a 5-lb stone to a stick and then carrying and using it is easy to see.
I'm trying to picture how I would chop something holding these stones in the position you are showing. If held the other way the polish would be elsewhere. Perhaps a demostration would help.
I have one that was found by the red river in the lockport area of Manitoba that has four finger marks (grooves) adding to the theory about them not being hefted. I saw one for sale on ebay years back that was found down in the states that looked exactly the same as the one I have that was found here. It had the four finger grooves and it looked so similar to the one I have I swear it had to have been made by the same guy. Where were your artifacts found? I also have a roller pestle similar to the ones you have, mine is shaped like a grain of rice about a foot long. the pestle appears to made of slate or some other type of black stone. I thought mine was rare but there you got a bunch of them. I found an arrow head as a kid and now I'm always watching the ground. my last fishing trip I found an ancient bison horn that had washed out of the bank.
204dave204. I'm so Thankful to see guy's with these same addictions.... I thought I was a rare thing! Lol! I Iive in the northern part of North Carolina, centrally located. We have 3rivers that come together right here, an I'm telling you guy's I've found volcanic glass stone's, black, green, brown, pink, red, slate stone's of ALL types, shapes and sizes. I know of trade routes, but the black volcanic glass Point's! The closest volcano to here is mmmm Yellowstone?? Mmmmm, 2000miles away, did they Trade that Far East and West? I've been studying, collecting, an searching in plowed fields an river banks for 20+ year's. I've no formal education but aged opinion gets to be pretty accurate, sometimes I believe Native American's where here ALOT longer than the books say..???
You keep saying to look at things without any preconceived notions about their usage when determining usage of an artifact ,when it seems to me that , you developed your own personal theories ,completely on your own, truly without any knowledge whatsoever of artifacts for damn sure ! But sadly you offer absolutely nothing as far as hard evidence ,no photos,use /wear analysis , simply no physical proof at all do you present . Common knowledge that most scrapers,flake tools were hand held during usage,been well proven for decades already,so your just repeating common knowledge on those . The rest of what you offer is the equivalent of all the natural rocks that people argue are artifacts ,the always say ,"it fits the hand perfectly so it's got to be an artifact", news flash ,you may want to sit down now ,ANY rock small enough to be picked up fits the human hand perfectly, because of the human hands shape,agility, and range of motion ! Don't believe me ,go walk a creek anywhere , you can easily pick up any rock that's not to large easily with no effort , amazing ! Go check out a library (they have bundles of paper that have words wrote on them called books) and you might be amazed at what actual information is already out there on the subject of artifacts ,that can be proven ,from real world study on real ,in situ, undisturbed ,sites over 150 years worth of study on sites going back around 15000-17000 years . Unfortunately nobody but you has knowledge and actual proof of natives going back hundreds of thousands of years ,again only your speculation nothing more offered up as proof . Wake up man ,the next turnip truck will be by soon ,don't want to miss your ride ! I will compliment you on a very nice display of artifacts you have there ,great stuff for sure ! Ever want to know how they were used better join "the den" , the best artifact site on Facebook, or I would be happy to answer any questions for you !
Outstanding collection !! Ummm the theories on using them tho..good Maine weed..it's always good to think out of the box and present new ideas that's how science advances..but..ummm..ya..next !!
I'm always interested in an idea that goes against conventional belief. An idea someone publishes becomes accepted as if it's factual information, when it is actually just another - earlier- idea which (also) makes sense. Then someone else comes along with a new idea and everyone jumps on the "how ridiculous... Everyone knows it's this other way" bandwagon as if they have some personal knowledge on the idea. They're idea came from the same place everyone elses idea came from: earlier published accounts on the subject. And there we, as a species, sit in stagnation never moving forward in our understanding of our own past. It's bizarre to me how this occurs with almost every area of science and/or history. Your ideas make sense. You obviously have a lot of personal experience with the objects themselves, and have spent a lot of time making sense of your ideas to yourself (a time consuming process, I know). And now, thanks to your videos, they make sense to (some) others as well. Keep it up.
Natives Used Them Axe's To Clear Land And Cut Wood,I Wanna Watch You Cut Tree's, And Clear Off Land Holding Just A Axe Head,Then I'll Mow My Yard With A Skill Saw
I have a huge collection of war axes from an ancient battle site. I can show you several ways axes were hafted besides grooved stones. My site is a mineral lick and has preserved a lot of wood and bone handles. The most amazing ones to me are where stones were placed into live sycamore roots and grown over to be harvested later. These stones have holes in them and grooves cut for the tree to grow into
I live on a lake on Minnesota river valley area where it was mostly Lakota territory. Some old asphalt is breaking up where the lake once was and im finding some amazing things. I just don't know what to do from here. I want to preserve what I can...
I have a grooved grinding stone, found in central VA., the groove is L shaped and contoured to fit the thumbs. I also have a fine, although worn down, grooved axe that was decorated with pecked patterns. Catch up with me, I'll email you photos, or pay a visit one day...
What is your hypothesis that disproves his hypothesis 100% ? Sounds like a bad scientific method, but you have the chance to explain this 100% dispute !?! Please tell !!!
"Hefted" verb past tense: hefted; past participle: hefted lift or carry (something heavy). "Donald hefted another pair of sandbags from the stack" "Hafted" verb past tense: hafted; past participle: hafted provide (a blade, ax head, or spearhead) with a haft. Moreover, If these Axes were meant to be used in the hand, then why weren't the ends shaped like Pestals? Maybe some were used by hand, but surely most were *Hafted
Very good analogy Lenny. I've often questioned the halting of axes. I do agree with splitting a sapling and binding the axe to allow the tree to grow into the groove. But some of the huge axes 10 pounds plus would be hard to swing unless you were a huge person? I do think from wear on the poll of some they were spalling huge chert nodules?
![ลองสั่งของจากแอพ temu ถูกจริงหรอ?? [โกงไหมครับ ep.88 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RTcZSQTiDZw/mqdefault.jpg)
If they are held by hand, I wonder what they could have been effectively used for? A hafted axe makes much more sense for versatility. To me anyway.
Kitchen tools
10:28 😅
Well I guess it’s my turn to add my two cents for what it’s worth I don’t necessarily believe grooved axes were held in the hand for one thing there is not enough leverage or force to be able to chop wood of any great quantities this way. The next thing is what about all the axes They have been found in dry caves and in the deserts of our southwest that actually still have hafting still on them. Why would an individual spend all that time grooving a stone and then putting it in his hand and not Halfting it. Just my two cents.
Agreed with all you wrote. I would also add to your part about leverage--That the amount of force needed to chop/cut any material using the hand-held method would put tremendous stress (pain) at the leverage points of the elbow, wrist and shoulder over a moderate amount of time. It's illogical.
It’s awesome you found these but even our ancestors understood the lever! 😂
Lenny, hands hold everything. Tools were not used enough to produce hand or especially finger polish. An adze or groved axe would be used longer than flake tools. Flake tools used for one task doesn't have finger holds or grips worn into it nor was it intentional.
Hands fit everything they touched! No need for finger grips!
Axes were hafted or hefted, whatever
They could attach all projectile points to wooden shafts but not axes?
Bro come on
Where are your Artifacts found, what state sir??
What's up Bro !
@@AncintArt2ndColony What's up my brother
Very interesting theory. My family has property with lots of Native American artifacts. One particularly nice specimen is an “axe.” It is highly polished with a groove around its entire circumference. I was recently pondering how it was hafted and I just couldn’t settle on a way that made sense. It seems too thick and unnecessarily cumbersome. In addition, the heel of the stone looks to be heavily used, but not the blade. It began making more sense to me that the stone was a hand tool, maybe a Mano? Or perhaps just an in-hafted axe. Your proposition will make me take a closer look.
🎉
Thank you! Very informative. I’ve been collecting a lot of artifacts here in Flint Michigan. You might want to think about coming to Flint! It certainly undergone a rebirth with the Charlesmont foundation who created the culture of center, including the flint, Michigan large, the upper hatch, in the community, Playhouse, and planetarium. my name is Bob Hendren MO address in Flint. I’ll be happy to provide you and I hope you’ll take about making a trip here in the spring although I’m sure we are both under Artifacts the long stream badge when conditions were very cold and there was a lot of snow.
Hello from Ann Arbor!!
Some people are still dreaming.
I agree, at least with your point that many stones are inaccurately claimed to have been mounted. Although a lot of the specifics regarding NA tools and weapons remain a mystery, the difficulty of securing a 5-lb stone to a stick and then carrying and using it is easy to see.
You have your opinion. But your wrong.
I'm trying to picture how I would chop something holding these stones in the position you are showing. If held the other way the polish would be elsewhere. Perhaps a demostration would help.
No, they were hafted
I have one that was found by the red river in the lockport area of Manitoba that has four finger marks (grooves) adding to the theory about them not being hefted. I saw one for sale on ebay years back that was found down in the states that looked exactly the same as the one I have that was found here. It had the four finger grooves and it looked so similar to the one I have I swear it had to have been made by the same guy. Where were your artifacts found? I also have a roller pestle similar to the ones you have, mine is shaped like a grain of rice about a foot long. the pestle appears to made of slate or some other type of black stone. I thought mine was rare but there you got a bunch of them. I found an arrow head as a kid and now I'm always watching the ground. my last fishing trip I found an ancient bison horn that had washed out of the bank.
204dave204. I'm so Thankful to see guy's with these same addictions.... I thought I was a rare thing! Lol! I Iive in the northern part of North Carolina, centrally located. We have 3rivers that come together right here, an I'm telling you guy's I've found volcanic glass stone's, black, green, brown, pink, red, slate stone's of ALL types, shapes and sizes. I know of trade routes, but the black volcanic glass Point's! The closest volcano to here is mmmm Yellowstone?? Mmmmm, 2000miles away, did they Trade that Far East and West? I've been studying, collecting, an searching in plowed fields an river banks for 20+ year's. I've no formal education but aged opinion gets to be pretty accurate, sometimes I believe Native American's where here ALOT longer than the books say..???
that "all of a sudden change" is called discovering the "lever"
Amazing Scientific Method !
You keep saying to look at things without any preconceived notions about their usage when determining usage of an artifact ,when it seems to me that , you developed your own personal theories ,completely on your own, truly without any knowledge whatsoever of artifacts for damn sure ! But sadly you offer absolutely nothing as far as hard evidence ,no photos,use /wear analysis , simply no physical proof at all do you present . Common knowledge that most scrapers,flake tools were hand held during usage,been well proven for decades already,so your just repeating common knowledge on those . The rest of what you offer is the equivalent of all the natural rocks that people argue are artifacts ,the always say ,"it fits the hand perfectly so it's got to be an artifact", news flash ,you may want to sit down now ,ANY rock small enough to be picked up fits the human hand perfectly, because of the human hands shape,agility, and range of motion ! Don't believe me ,go walk a creek anywhere , you can easily pick up any rock that's not to large easily with no effort , amazing ! Go check out a library (they have bundles of paper that have words wrote on them called books) and you might be amazed at what actual information is already out there on the subject of artifacts ,that can be proven ,from real world study on real ,in situ, undisturbed ,sites over 150 years worth of study on sites going back around 15000-17000 years . Unfortunately nobody but you has knowledge and actual proof of natives going back hundreds of thousands of years ,again only your speculation nothing more offered up as proof . Wake up man ,the next turnip truck will be by soon ,don't want to miss your ride ! I will compliment you on a very nice display of artifacts you have there ,great stuff for sure ! Ever want to know how they were used better join "the den" , the best artifact site on Facebook, or I would be happy to answer any questions for you !
Mark Breland can you put up a picture of the axe you posted on the den ?
Outstanding collection !! Ummm the theories on using them tho..good Maine weed..it's always good to think out of the box and present new ideas that's how science advances..but..ummm..ya..next !!
In new to all this … but actually like this view
I'm always interested in an idea that goes against conventional belief. An idea someone publishes becomes accepted as if it's factual information, when it is actually just another - earlier- idea which (also) makes sense. Then someone else comes along with a new idea and everyone jumps on the "how ridiculous... Everyone knows it's this other way" bandwagon as if they have some personal knowledge on the idea. They're idea came from the same place everyone elses idea came from: earlier published accounts on the subject. And there we, as a species, sit in stagnation never moving forward in our understanding of our own past. It's bizarre to me how this occurs with almost every area of science and/or history. Your ideas make sense. You obviously have a lot of personal experience with the objects themselves, and have spent a lot of time making sense of your ideas to yourself (a time consuming process, I know). And now, thanks to your videos, they make sense to (some) others as well. Keep it up.
hafted, not hefted(to lift)
Natives Used Them Axe's To Clear Land And Cut Wood,I Wanna Watch You Cut Tree's, And Clear Off Land Holding Just A Axe Head,Then I'll Mow My Yard With A Skill Saw
I have a huge collection of war axes from an ancient battle site. I can show you several ways axes were hafted besides grooved stones. My site is a mineral lick and has preserved a lot of wood and bone handles. The most amazing ones to me are where stones were placed into live sycamore roots and grown over to be harvested later. These stones have holes in them and grooves cut for the tree to grow into
I've seen your channel, and I didn't see a single artifact. There is correct information out there. Comprehension is necessary not belief.
I live on a lake on Minnesota river valley area where it was mostly Lakota territory. Some old asphalt is breaking up where the lake once was and im finding some amazing things. I just don't know what to do from here. I want to preserve what I can...
I have a grooved grinding stone, found in central VA., the groove is L shaped and contoured to fit the thumbs. I also have a fine, although worn down, grooved axe that was decorated with pecked patterns. Catch up with me, I'll email you photos, or pay a visit one day...
I found a tomahawk with a raised blade twirled down it, if you can wrap your mind around that technology. Imagine getting clubbed with that.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree 100%.
What is your hypothesis that disproves his hypothesis 100% ? Sounds like a bad scientific method, but you have the chance to explain this 100% dispute !?! Please tell !!!
GOOD STUFF
What's up Bro !
Rubbish! Let's see your microscopic photos!
Your mom is rubbish. Lol
Wow...very nice collection!!!
Very nice!
"Hefted" verb
past tense: hefted; past participle: hefted
lift or carry (something heavy).
"Donald hefted another pair of sandbags from the stack"
"Hafted" verb
past tense: hafted; past participle: hafted
provide (a blade, ax head, or spearhead) with a haft.
Moreover, If these Axes were meant to be used in the hand, then why weren't the ends shaped like Pestals?
Maybe some were used by hand, but surely most were *Hafted
Very good analogy Lenny. I've often questioned the halting of axes. I do agree with splitting a sapling and binding the axe to allow the tree to grow into the groove. But some of the huge axes 10 pounds plus would be hard to swing unless you were a huge person? I do think from wear on the poll of some they were spalling huge chert nodules?