When you set the plane up to check with the test indicator (4:27) , you do a lot of fixturing work, since you're supporting it from the irregular side. It's (much) easier to fixture it with the sole downwards - I use a V block at one end and a small screw jack at the other, which provides adjustable angle 3 support. You then run your test indicator on the underside. This is MUCH less clear for expositional purposes, but a lot easier to set up.
Great. I like your method of flatning with a steel scraper, that makes not such a mess like grinding it on sandpaper for a long time! Great to see a follow up.
What a great vid! I'm sort of planning on learning to scrape. Just bought a brand new German carbide scraper,and am looking to purchase t b grade granite surface. What's that you say? Do I need another hobby? of course. I mean just because there is no other reason for me to do this other than it fascinates me, is reason enough. I'm a woodworker who loves hand planes and your last video when you scraped those planes was one of the reasons I ordered the scraper. God give me the strength to resist the temptation to mess with my Veritas planes and focus on the Woodriver if I have to mess with something. Keep it up
Welcome to the wonderful World of metal scraping! It's a powerful feeling being able to flatten a piece of iron to within a hundredth of a millimetre by hand with nothing more than a slab of rock and a metal stick 👍
What a fascinating video. I know nothing of engineering and while as a hobby woodworker this is of no immediate practical benefit to me, it is great to see how one can approach such a problem from first principles. Thank you.
It allows you to take really fine shavings down to 0.001". But the surface finish and fineness of the shavings is mostly down to how finely honed the blade is. Sharpness is King!
@@radboogiecan take shavings less than 0.001” in thickness. Shavings so thin that a digital caliper registers 0.000” because the shaving does not even trigger the 0.0005” superscript indicator. Dial indicator shows 3-tenths (where a “tenth” is one-ten-thousandth or 0.0001”). Having such a flat sole on a non-corrugated plane can sometimes cause issues with lifting the board off the table if you’re just using a non-toothed planing stop or bench dog to plane against. On my lapped-soles, I get a suction effect once the wood becomes very flat. They wring together like gauge blocks and when I lift the plane, the wood lifts too. This becomes a sign that you’re done planing because the two surfaces are so flat they stick to one another!
You can measure tenths on a decent micrometer, but even a thou is really fine for woodworking. Really interesting to hear you get a suction effect on smooth wood, a bit like when you wring engineering slip gauges together and they stick. I'll have to look out for that when I'm planing 👍 [Edit] forgot to mention that in the World of metalworking the suction between two flat surfaces is known as stick-slip. This is one of the reasons why scraping is used on sliding surfaces as the slight undulations help prevent a vacuum forming and reduces this effect.
Richard, Great video. I would have loved to see how the planes held up without you using them for your woodwork. So, did the plane change over time due to its form, or from you using it for woodworking. I like your concept of a poor man's straight edge and just started scraping a plane body I had laying around. It beats 700 dollars for a camel back for a one time project.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it 👍 The change in shape I put down to a number of things. Thinking about the hollow, this could be wear along the centre from edge jointing boards where I'm not planing the full thickness. Part would be down to temperature changes in my work area, it can go from -5C in Winter to 45C in summer. Also just the act of removing and re-fitting the iron can cause stress on it. Plane bodies are a great source of good quality iron for little to no money, definitely cheaper than a Camelback! 😂
The hollow is not symmetrical so it probably happened trough use. Based on it's diagonal shape I'd say it probably comes from how he applies pressure to the sole during planing, with the right hand pulling down more on the left side. Interestingly some very old handplanes hand the rear handle offset to the right precisely to even out that pressure.
I wonder if ductile iron is any less susceptible to wear. If the cast iron from old Stanley's is barely showing half a thou' then I suspect my Lie-Nielsen planes should still be pretty flat lol.
An interesting point, there's probably a different in the way the internal stresses are built up. I'm not convinced that the distortion is entirely down to wear, I think there may be other factors at play which I'm going to look into in the next video. 👍
I have thought a lot about that, probably a combination as you say. My workshop area has wide temperature swings, from -5C in the winter to 45C in the summer, that will cause a lot of expansion and contraction. Some of it will be wear, but I don't think that's the main cause in my case as I don't work them that hard. I do have a theory as to what could cause measurable distortion and I'll be testing it out in the next video 👍
Did you notice the Record plane cast iron to be harder than the Stanley? That was my observation flatening a few planes from both brands. Record are known to be less stable also. Maybe stress releiving the cast iron makes it softer? Hope somebody can spread some info on this subject.
Now you mention it there was a difference in feel when scraping the different planes but I didn't really think much about it at the time. I have to say I was impressed with how flat the #5 stayed given how long and thin it is.
Nice update mate. You could cut back a lot on the engineers blue to get a better result.Harder to film but more accurate. And if you use a small gauge block under the indicator ball it will save the inaccuracy of the ball end sliding in and out of scraping divots.Less indicator noise. Hope you take this advice in the spirit it was given and don't get offended. An old mate of mine always said " if you want to take offence take the gate as well".
Thanks for the advice mate. The way I see it is I don't know everything so I welcome tips and advice from everyone in the comments. And even if I do know something, there are loads of people that would benefit from the info. I often learn as much from comments on TH-cam videos as I do from the videos themselves 👍 With the blueing I do tend to put it on thicker for the camera, and also where this is for woodworking I don't need so much finesse. Great idea about the gauge block, should have thought of that 😂 Great saying BTW, might have to steal that!
First time I've seen on YT a before/after usage surface plane flatness test 👍 More woodworkers need to see this video. Since there IS measurable wear, even in just hobby 1 year usage, i wonder how planes would fair after 10 years of professional wood-worker projects. 🤔
It surprised me that both planes seemed to hollow slightly. Seems more that the iron has distorted rather than abraded. Will have to do another video in 10 years time now 😂
@@radboogienot surprised at the wear. I restored a pre-war No 8 jointer and it took 3 weeks to lap the sole back to flat because where the man’s thumb had held the plane for untold numbers of years. There was a hollow in the sole where the most down pressure was applied. That was also a good indicator as to how to best utilize the plane - if a pro held it like that for decades, who am I to hold it differently?
@@devinteske Lapping (or at least what woodworkers call "lapping", rubbing on a flat sheet of abrasive) is a really poor way to flatten a plane sole. 1) Unless you're really careful, you will actually make the sole convex (which is a BAD THING) 2) It's slow, especially for larger planes (like a No 8). As you proceed, the flat area gets bigger, and therefore the pressure goes done, and in turn the metal removal rate goes down. You end up pushing a nearly flat plane around for days and days. I have found that the quickest way (without machinery) to get a plane sole accurately flat is to use the surface-plate and ink approach, but (especially in the early roughing stages) DON'T use a scraper - use something cruder and faster, like a small grinder, REALLY coarse AlZi abrasive paper on a small block, or a file. The "trick" is to keep your metal removal a little more accurate than the estimated error in flatness, but on "a little more". As the sole becomes more accurate, you can make your metal removal finer and slower.
I have never used a Lie Nielsen but would assume that their quality of manufacture and material selection would lead to more dimensional stability. They use the Stanley Bedrock pattern so that might make them stiffer than the Bailey pattern. Stanley and Record tools will be more variable because they were made over a period of 100 years in different foundries and for different budgets. In any case the differences in flatness over time will be very small and probably not enough to be noticeable in general use.
When you set the plane up to check with the test indicator (4:27) , you do a lot of fixturing work, since you're supporting it from the irregular side.
It's (much) easier to fixture it with the sole downwards - I use a V block at one end and a small screw jack at the other, which provides adjustable angle 3 support.
You then run your test indicator on the underside.
This is MUCH less clear for expositional purposes, but a lot easier to set up.
Thanks Paul. I used that technique in the original video where I scraped it but limited space only allowed me to sweep the edges.
Great. I like your method of flatning with a steel scraper, that makes not such a mess like grinding it on sandpaper for a long time! Great to see a follow up.
Thanks, yes I really don't like lapping on abrasive paper. It feels like scraping your finger nails down a blackboard 😂
@@radboogie Yes and my Wood shop get covert with metal dust :D
What a great vid! I'm sort of planning on learning to scrape. Just bought a brand new German carbide scraper,and am looking to purchase t b grade granite surface. What's that you say? Do I need another hobby? of course. I mean just because there is no other reason for me to do this other than it fascinates me, is reason enough. I'm a woodworker who loves hand planes and your last video when you scraped those planes was one of the reasons I ordered the scraper. God give me the strength to resist the temptation to mess with my Veritas planes and focus on the Woodriver if I have to mess with something. Keep it up
Welcome to the wonderful World of metal scraping! It's a powerful feeling being able to flatten a piece of iron to within a hundredth of a millimetre by hand with nothing more than a slab of rock and a metal stick 👍
What a fascinating video. I know nothing of engineering and while as a hobby woodworker this is of no immediate practical benefit to me, it is great to see how one can approach such a problem from first principles. Thank you.
Thanks Andy, glad you enjoyed it 👍
A precision jack.... now I know I'm a chippy and this is some mysterious dark arts.. but not words I've heard go together before 😂
i wonder if it changes with temp. 2:46 i wonder if it gets more flat at 65 vs 85 degrees
Interesting, I feel another video coming on 😂
I have to wonder what effect that this degree of flatness on the sole of the plane makes to a piece of wood planed with it.
It allows you to take really fine shavings down to 0.001". But the surface finish and fineness of the shavings is mostly down to how finely honed the blade is. Sharpness is King!
@@radboogiecan take shavings less than 0.001” in thickness. Shavings so thin that a digital caliper registers 0.000” because the shaving does not even trigger the 0.0005” superscript indicator. Dial indicator shows 3-tenths (where a “tenth” is one-ten-thousandth or 0.0001”). Having such a flat sole on a non-corrugated plane can sometimes cause issues with lifting the board off the table if you’re just using a non-toothed planing stop or bench dog to plane against. On my lapped-soles, I get a suction effect once the wood becomes very flat. They wring together like gauge blocks and when I lift the plane, the wood lifts too. This becomes a sign that you’re done planing because the two surfaces are so flat they stick to one another!
@@radboogie aaah of course. that makes sense. You could enter one of the Japanese thin shavings competitions.
Haha, the shavings in those contests defy gravity and rise like smoke 😂
You can measure tenths on a decent micrometer, but even a thou is really fine for woodworking. Really interesting to hear you get a suction effect on smooth wood, a bit like when you wring engineering slip gauges together and they stick. I'll have to look out for that when I'm planing 👍
[Edit] forgot to mention that in the World of metalworking the suction between two flat surfaces is known as stick-slip. This is one of the reasons why scraping is used on sliding surfaces as the slight undulations help prevent a vacuum forming and reduces this effect.
Richard, Great video. I would have loved to see how the planes held up without you using them for your woodwork. So, did the plane change over time due to its form, or from you using it for woodworking. I like your concept of a poor man's straight edge and just started scraping a plane body I had laying around. It beats 700 dollars for a camel back for a one time project.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it 👍 The change in shape I put down to a number of things. Thinking about the hollow, this could be wear along the centre from edge jointing boards where I'm not planing the full thickness. Part would be down to temperature changes in my work area, it can go from -5C in Winter to 45C in summer. Also just the act of removing and re-fitting the iron can cause stress on it. Plane bodies are a great source of good quality iron for little to no money, definitely cheaper than a Camelback! 😂
The hollow is not symmetrical so it probably happened trough use. Based on it's diagonal shape I'd say it probably comes from how he applies pressure to the sole during planing, with the right hand pulling down more on the left side.
Interestingly some very old handplanes hand the rear handle offset to the right precisely to even out that pressure.
I wonder if ductile iron is any less susceptible to wear. If the cast iron from old Stanley's is barely showing half a thou' then I suspect my Lie-Nielsen planes should still be pretty flat lol.
An interesting point, there's probably a different in the way the internal stresses are built up. I'm not convinced that the distortion is entirely down to wear, I think there may be other factors at play which I'm going to look into in the next video. 👍
Interesting, now is this due to wear, twisting during use, temperature difference or a combination? I suppose we will never know.
I have thought a lot about that, probably a combination as you say. My workshop area has wide temperature swings, from -5C in the winter to 45C in the summer, that will cause a lot of expansion and contraction. Some of it will be wear, but I don't think that's the main cause in my case as I don't work them that hard. I do have a theory as to what could cause measurable distortion and I'll be testing it out in the next video 👍
Really interesting. Can't wait for the mythbuster video.
Cheers Bill, coming soon 👍
Did you notice the Record plane cast iron to be harder than the Stanley? That was my observation flatening a few planes from both brands. Record are known to be less stable also. Maybe stress releiving the cast iron makes it softer? Hope somebody can spread some info on this subject.
Now you mention it there was a difference in feel when scraping the different planes but I didn't really think much about it at the time. I have to say I was impressed with how flat the #5 stayed given how long and thin it is.
Nice update mate.
You could cut back a lot on the engineers blue to get a better result.Harder to film but more accurate.
And if you use a small gauge block under the indicator ball it will save the inaccuracy of the ball end sliding in and out of scraping divots.Less indicator noise.
Hope you take this advice in the spirit it was given and don't get offended.
An old mate of mine always said " if you want to take offence take the gate as well".
Thanks for the advice mate. The way I see it is I don't know everything so I welcome tips and advice from everyone in the comments. And even if I do know something, there are loads of people that would benefit from the info. I often learn as much from comments on TH-cam videos as I do from the videos themselves 👍
With the blueing I do tend to put it on thicker for the camera, and also where this is for woodworking I don't need so much finesse. Great idea about the gauge block, should have thought of that 😂
Great saying BTW, might have to steal that!
First time I've seen on YT a before/after usage surface plane flatness test 👍
More woodworkers need to see this video. Since there IS measurable wear, even in just hobby 1 year usage, i wonder how planes would fair after 10 years of professional wood-worker projects. 🤔
It surprised me that both planes seemed to hollow slightly. Seems more that the iron has distorted rather than abraded. Will have to do another video in 10 years time now 😂
@@radboogienot surprised at the wear. I restored a pre-war No 8 jointer and it took 3 weeks to lap the sole back to flat because where the man’s thumb had held the plane for untold numbers of years. There was a hollow in the sole where the most down pressure was applied. That was also a good indicator as to how to best utilize the plane - if a pro held it like that for decades, who am I to hold it differently?
@@devinteske Crowdsourced practical knowledge coming in Hard on this video 👍
@@devinteske Lapping (or at least what woodworkers call "lapping", rubbing on a flat sheet of abrasive) is a really poor way to flatten a plane sole.
1) Unless you're really careful, you will actually make the sole convex (which is a BAD THING)
2) It's slow, especially for larger planes (like a No 8). As you proceed, the flat area gets bigger, and therefore the pressure goes done, and in turn the metal removal rate goes down. You end up pushing a nearly flat plane around for days and days.
I have found that the quickest way (without machinery) to get a plane sole accurately flat is to use the surface-plate and ink approach, but (especially in the early roughing stages) DON'T use a scraper - use something cruder and faster, like a small grinder, REALLY coarse AlZi abrasive paper on a small block, or a file.
The "trick" is to keep your metal removal a little more accurate than the estimated error in flatness, but on "a little more".
As the sole becomes more accurate, you can make your metal removal finer and slower.
Doe this mean that lie Nielsen planes are no better than the likes of Stanley and Record or are they any more stable?
I have never used a Lie Nielsen but would assume that their quality of manufacture and material selection would lead to more dimensional stability. They use the Stanley Bedrock pattern so that might make them stiffer than the Bailey pattern. Stanley and Record tools will be more variable because they were made over a period of 100 years in different foundries and for different budgets. In any case the differences in flatness over time will be very small and probably not enough to be noticeable in general use.
Engineering is just problem solving, if it works and its repeatable its good enough for us,