The Shakespeare/Hamlet analogy has never rung true for me. I feel like we're trying to make God's sovereignty and our free will fit logically in a forced way. He IS sovereign, and He has given us free will. There is a point at which the interplay goes beyond our understanding.
You are not thinking about it logically. You perception of will and choice are an illusion for people who don't examine things well. If God knows everything and created everything, he by necessity knew everything that would happen as he created it and any small change he made would change everything from beginning to end. In that scenario he has ultimate control and knowledge of everything from beginning to end. He made you and the world to do everything you and does. You cannot jump the tracks of your created-ness.
The problem with predestination isn't that "it makes God an ogre", it's that it's both unbiblical and merely living day to day as a Christian requires you behave as though it isn't true. Moses lived a life of faith. God blessed him for this. Then, getting impatient about water and striking a rock an additional time, God became angry at his lack of faith and punished the jews. Why? According to Doug Wilson, Moses was equally following God's plan in both instances, and equally providing faith in both instances. To Doug, it was God, not Moses who provided the faith when Moses was faithful. Why be angry with Moses for doing the same thing Moses always did? Doug simply does not himself preach as though he believes in his own Calvinism. If you genuinely believed that all men only do what they are predestined to do, you would not spend your adult life writing books attempting to change men's behavior that you yourself claim that they cannot change. Love the man, but he is very silly on such topics.
One day, after roughly 15 years of walking in Christ, in one instant-literally- the Holy Spirit let me see this clearly as Truth. I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing in that split second moment. He “downloaded” it to me when I wasn’t even pursuing it. No man has the mind of God, God alone is sovereign over man- fully, completely. Man cannot reason this out on his own I am convinced. It’s been near 10 years since this revelation and it could not be more crystal clear to me as my journey continues. I stand on that as if on a giant rock, immovable. The Holy Spirit, God, must bring this knowledge. Period. Good hermeneutics will make this even more assured and effective for confirmation as one seeks and pursues.
@@jay1871 so you are saying God 'downloaded' but your response wss not to stand on that rock, it had the opposite result? You rejected it. Have i got that right because it doesnt sound like it
The bow is a river. ABBA FATHER GOD did create the simplest of fabrics (waters, H²O) to sustain ALL forms of life here on earth 🌱 LIFE IS BUT A VAPOUR 🌹
Hi Matt. Good interview, but try as I may though, I just cannot make sense of this. He says: "God didn't just ordain that you would be here. He ordained that you would be here, because of a series of free choices that you made. He ordained the choices too." But if he ordained your choices too, then you had no free choice in the matter. Calvinism just gets caught up in endless circular reasoning. Thanks & keep well
You chose to do what God chose for you to do what you chose to do what God chose for you to do dadadadadadada it is logically nonsensical but don't try to use man made idols such as logic to comprehend it! *Later that day, appeals to existence of logic for evangelism because God created a logically ordered universe* Molinism is the best expression of the absolute sovereignty of God AND choices of men. Ultimately, it gets to the same end point as calvinism (God ordaining all that comes to pass, Christ dieing for a people and being their federal head, etc ) but it is actually logically coherent. Reformed theology should continue to evaluate their doctrine and not be stuck in a view that was an overreaction to Catholicisms works based salvation.
This discussion calls for mystery. But it seems Calvinists dispel or despise mystery. If that creator-creation distinction were to be followed properly, a lot would be mystery and apophatic.
In our earthly realm, we have the freedom to make our own choices-choices that always align with God's plan. If God is not in absolute control over all things, then he cannot be God. Alternatively, if God is not in absolute control over all things, then where does his absolute control end or begin?
Unbounded, unlimited, omnipresent control. Not just predestination. God is Sovereign and We are responsible. An apparent paradox but not an actual one, because it is His world and He can make however He wants. Colossians 1 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
I can easily just reverse this statement at 6:59 - Can God leave a scene untouched and let me make every decision about what to say and do and remain totally Sovereign? A Calvanist view of God’s Sovereignty is lower than the above statement. I would say believing God can fully leave our free will intact and yet still be in control is the mystery. A Calvinist view removes that mystery by simply stating that God wrote the scene. The only thing truly ordained by God is the freedom for us to choose as free moral agents. The mystery is that he remains totally Sovereign at the same time.
I feel like people who get the logical necessity of predestination in a world with an all knowing creator, will never be able to explain it to someone who doesn't immediately see it. We should just have a club that says are you authored or author and then we can discuss it amount ourselves and let the rest of christendom go about its day.
Yeah. I have concluded that at this point in the building of the church, we are not broadly intellectual enough to have an open discussion of these things. We need milk right now not meat.
@@ghostghillie. oh... I almost forgot... Mark Dever wrote the Forward for the latest(?) edition (2008?) for this book.... now I'm not sure what Mark Dever's current "woke" status is, but don't be put off by his Forward, it is really good and he hits the nail on the head! :)
Its not hard until you try to soften the blow. You are a fully authored. Yes like a book. Get over yourself. Or should I say, God has made me to hope He has made you to understand this and be able to cope.
God wants me to tell you thank you for saying that you hope that I can understand, even though I know you or I don't actually want anything or do anything apart from our scripts.
Do you believe God will destroy Satan because he wills it and has the power, or just that God merely looks into the future and sees that he wins in the end? God has both the power and the will to save his people. Otherwise, I would surely fall. Why does God send a delusion in 2 Thessolonians (to believe Satan's deception) ? Because all had ample human evidence to believe the truth, and yet denied the truth. God lets them go their own way. God saves his people because he can.
The insanity of Calvinist determinism on full display. The position that we have choice, but that our choices are predetermined by God, yet God somehow isn't responsible for our choices. Absolute insanity.
How do you think those works with God hardening Pharoah' heart? What about Jesus knowing who would betray him? God ordained that Jesus would die on a cross from the beginning of time, but He also had to ordain that Pilate would turn him over, that the Pharisees would call for his execution, and that Barabas would be released instead. God is both in control of everything, yet can also give us free will. Otherwise, He would have no need to ask us to choose. How do you think of all this?
@@Bertoleyus I think that men have true, libertarian free will to choose. I believe God directly causes some things to happen, other things He simply permits. I believe God knows all things that will happen not because He actively determines the minutia of all that happens, but because He transcends time and thus sees everything at once...He is in the future, present, and past all at once.
@sbag11 He was the one who caused the first event in history, and when He did that, he knew how all the "dominos" would fall. He could have pushed hard or softer and the result would have been different. He knew all that would result from the moment he made man. How does he not ordain everything else?
@@TheRomans9Guy agreed. I disagreed there too. Hamlet plays a role in so far as his personality somewhat dictates what Shakespeare writes. But Shakespeare has to ask himself, "what would hamlet do?"
@user-kc7xk6wy2z People like me jump all over all of it because all of his thinking is really poor. His theology is poor and how he tries to relate his theology through analogies shows how poor it is. That’s all. It’s not like we are ok with his theology but are just being nit picky about the analogy he uses to illustrate it.
@user-kc7xk6wy2z No, it is categorically incorrect because he concludes with saying that the authorship is 100% Shakespeare and 100% Hamlet. In reality, it is 0% Hamlet. He then tries to say that humans have a choice in what they do, and then he goes on to say that regadless of our ability to choose the same things will happen. This is, in a word, stupid.
7:00 “Can God unalterably write a scene in which I say certain things, freely.” No. That’s completely illogical and God is a god of perfect logic. Nope.
@user-kc7xk6wy2z That’s a silly cop out. “God’s goodness is beyond our comprehension…there fore I don’t have to be good.” No, sorry. God gave us logic and logic isn’t out of our grasp.
This man is a liar. He doesn't beleive half of what he says on this podcast! He's a Calvinist and therefore justifies his deceptive speech because he actually beleives God only loves the 'elect', which of course he is, and claims God is love. BUT because he thinks Calvinism is the true Gospel, Calvinists are free to use any means to 'teach it', lie, deceive, misinterpret verses etc etc just so they can make a convert! Remind you a group written about in the new testament?....The Pharisees!!
Can you give me a working definition of sovereignty? From the scripture. Not philosophy. Also, please be clear - not like Doug inserted “Gods will” into MT10:29 when it is not part of that verse. I’ll start: Daniel 4:35, psalm 115:3, 16. Okay, you’re up lol.
@@jay1871 Alright. I like those passages in Daniel, and Psalms. Sounds like you're on my side, God does what he wants to do, not that God ordains all things. So far so good! And as Psalm 115:16 points out, he has given Earth to mankind to rule. He isn't ordaining what man does. I would suggest Genesis 1, similar to Psalm 115, God created the world and judged it as good, but put man in charge of it. No ordination of all things here. And as 1 Chronicles 29 says, he is over all. Including us. But he doesn't make our choices for us.
@@TheRomans9Guy well, yes. My goal was to just be neutral but yes lol. Very much so. I struggle with many people because almost everyone has their own in house definition of sovereignty which brings about a “same language, different dictionary, different baggage” situation in which parties speak past one another. So what is sovereignty in YOUR words? I would say simply that in control ≠ controlling. The LORD GOD is on the throne of heaven and He is in control, not of my decisions, but rather He is in control in spite of my decisions. No man will stay His hand and He moves unhindered - if and when He moves.
@@jay1871 My definition matches yours. It’s a shame people confuse in control with “controlling.” Always makes me wonder about what else is going on in their lives… Maybe I would add he is on the throne in heaven, and in his sovereignty, he decided to give us the ability to choose freely.
The Shakespeare/Hamlet analogy has never rung true for me. I feel like we're trying to make God's sovereignty and our free will fit logically in a forced way. He IS sovereign, and He has given us free will. There is a point at which the interplay goes beyond our understanding.
You are not thinking about it logically. You perception of will and choice are an illusion for people who don't examine things well.
If God knows everything and created everything, he by necessity knew everything that would happen as he created it and any small change he made would change everything from beginning to end. In that scenario he has ultimate control and knowledge of everything from beginning to end. He made you and the world to do everything you and does. You cannot jump the tracks of your created-ness.
I love how Calvinists use this analogy, yet claim in their confessions (WCF/LBCF 3) that God _isn't_ the _author_ of sin 😄
The problem with predestination isn't that "it makes God an ogre", it's that it's both unbiblical and merely living day to day as a Christian requires you behave as though it isn't true.
Moses lived a life of faith. God blessed him for this. Then, getting impatient about water and striking a rock an additional time, God became angry at his lack of faith and punished the jews.
Why? According to Doug Wilson, Moses was equally following God's plan in both instances, and equally providing faith in both instances. To Doug, it was God, not Moses who provided the faith when Moses was faithful. Why be angry with Moses for doing the same thing Moses always did?
Doug simply does not himself preach as though he believes in his own Calvinism. If you genuinely believed that all men only do what they are predestined to do, you would not spend your adult life writing books attempting to change men's behavior that you yourself claim that they cannot change.
Love the man, but he is very silly on such topics.
One day, after roughly 15 years of walking in Christ, in one instant-literally- the Holy Spirit let me see this clearly as Truth. I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing in that split second moment. He “downloaded” it to me when I wasn’t even pursuing it. No man has the mind of God, God alone is sovereign over man- fully, completely. Man cannot reason this out on his own I am convinced. It’s been near 10 years since this revelation and it could not be more crystal clear to me as my journey continues. I stand on that as if on a giant rock, immovable. The Holy Spirit, God, must bring this knowledge. Period. Good hermeneutics will make this even more assured and effective for confirmation as one seeks and pursues.
Amen. Same!
Funny, I had the exact same thing happen but it had the opposite result.
@@jay1871 That would be interesting if we both had similar- or the same- experiences- quantitatively, and not of our own imagination or making.
@@jay1871 so you are saying God 'downloaded' but your response wss not to stand on that rock, it had the opposite result? You rejected it. Have i got that right because it doesnt sound like it
The bow is a river.
ABBA FATHER GOD did create the simplest of fabrics (waters, H²O) to sustain ALL forms of life here on earth
🌱 LIFE IS BUT A VAPOUR 🌹
Hi Matt. Good interview, but try as I may though, I just cannot make sense of this.
He says: "God didn't just ordain that you would be here. He ordained that you would be here, because of a series of free choices that you made. He ordained the choices too." But if he ordained your choices too, then you had no free choice in the matter.
Calvinism just gets caught up in endless circular reasoning.
Thanks & keep well
Multiple times God says “I did not command that”
Or “I did not ordain that”.
To say the Bible is obscure is insane. Always take the Bible on its face.
You chose to do what God chose for you to do what you chose to do what God chose for you to do dadadadadadada it is logically nonsensical but don't try to use man made idols such as logic to comprehend it! *Later that day, appeals to existence of logic for evangelism because God created a logically ordered universe*
Molinism is the best expression of the absolute sovereignty of God AND choices of men. Ultimately, it gets to the same end point as calvinism (God ordaining all that comes to pass, Christ dieing for a people and being their federal head, etc ) but it is actually logically coherent. Reformed theology should continue to evaluate their doctrine and not be stuck in a view that was an overreaction to Catholicisms works based salvation.
I like this guy
Which one?
Would love more on this topic!!!
Amen, Doug!🙌🏻
This discussion calls for mystery. But it seems Calvinists dispel or despise mystery. If that creator-creation distinction were to be followed properly, a lot would be mystery and apophatic.
They love mystery! They just save the appeal to mystery for when they have to explain how exactly their God isn't simply a monster.
In our earthly realm, we have the freedom to make our own choices-choices that always align with God's plan.
If God is not in absolute control over all things, then he cannot be God.
Alternatively, if God is not in absolute control over all things, then where does his absolute control end or begin?
Unbounded, unlimited, omnipresent control. Not just predestination.
God is Sovereign and We are responsible.
An apparent paradox but not an actual one, because it is His world and He can make however He wants.
Colossians 1
16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
And now you know why Mathematics is a Language!!! Beautiful!!!!
Doug, please loose some weight!
😂
Believers have a prepared destination
And believers are produced by the Holy Spirit. Gal 5:22
Holy Ghost always resisted
Acts 7:51
We're not puppets but its His stage and His play.... Interesting
Not that it makes any sense.
Actors only move and speak according to the script and blocking. It's identical to bring a puppet.
His play, his stage, his script. We're not puppets because a puppeteer never tricks a puppet into thinking it makes its own decisions.
I can easily just reverse this statement at 6:59 - Can God leave a scene untouched and let me make every decision about what to say and do and remain totally Sovereign? A Calvanist view of God’s Sovereignty is lower than the above statement. I would say believing God can fully leave our free will intact and yet still be in control is the mystery. A Calvinist view removes that mystery by simply stating that God wrote the scene. The only thing truly ordained by God is the freedom for us to choose as free moral agents. The mystery is that he remains totally Sovereign at the same time.
That’s just puppeteering with extra steps
(I am a Christian and a Doug Wilson mega fan, please don’t hurt me) 😂😅
I feel like people who get the logical necessity of predestination in a world with an all knowing creator, will never be able to explain it to someone who doesn't immediately see it. We should just have a club that says are you authored or author and then we can discuss it amount ourselves and let the rest of christendom go about its day.
Yeah. I have concluded that at this point in the building of the church, we are not broadly intellectual enough to have an open discussion of these things. We need milk right now not meat.
Great explanations and talking..................... also see "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God" by J. I. Packer
Agreed. I liked the explanation of teo different wills of God.
The book you suggested is related to it?
@@ghostghillie. Yes. It is somewhat of a modern classic on the subject. Highly recommended for coming to terms with and living in light of this.
@@scatoutdebutter great. Thank you
@@ghostghillie. oh... I almost forgot... Mark Dever wrote the Forward for the latest(?) edition (2008?) for this book.... now I'm not sure what Mark Dever's current "woke" status is, but don't be put off by his Forward, it is really good and he hits the nail on the head! :)
Its not hard until you try to soften the blow. You are a fully authored. Yes like a book. Get over yourself. Or should I say, God has made me to hope He has made you to understand this and be able to cope.
God wants me to tell you thank you for saying that you hope that I can understand, even though I know you or I don't actually want anything or do anything apart from our scripts.
This post is so, so close to English.
Do you believe God will destroy Satan because he wills it and has the power, or just that God merely looks into the future and sees that he wins in the end?
God has both the power and the will to save his people. Otherwise, I would surely fall.
Why does God send a delusion in 2 Thessolonians (to believe Satan's deception) ? Because all had ample human evidence to believe the truth, and yet denied the truth. God lets them go their own way. God saves his people because he can.
Poor and unbiblical teaching from Doug. That’s a gnostic philosophy my friend- but it sure ain’t a biblical theology.
You probably can't define historic Gnosticism
💘
Much circular examples explaining and cofirming that it is true what calvinists get accused of.
The insanity of Calvinist determinism on full display. The position that we have choice, but that our choices are predetermined by God, yet God somehow isn't responsible for our choices. Absolute insanity.
How do you think those works with God hardening Pharoah' heart? What about Jesus knowing who would betray him?
God ordained that Jesus would die on a cross from the beginning of time, but He also had to ordain that Pilate would turn him over, that the Pharisees would call for his execution, and that Barabas would be released instead. God is both in control of everything, yet can also give us free will. Otherwise, He would have no need to ask us to choose. How do you think of all this?
@@Bertoleyus I think that men have true, libertarian free will to choose. I believe God directly causes some things to happen, other things He simply permits. I believe God knows all things that will happen not because He actively determines the minutia of all that happens, but because He transcends time and thus sees everything at once...He is in the future, present, and past all at once.
@sbag11 He was the one who caused the first event in history, and when He did that, he knew how all the "dominos" would fall. He could have pushed hard or softer and the result would have been different. He knew all that would result from the moment he made man. How does he not ordain everything else?
@@Bertoleyus Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing something to happen.
How would you work out Romans 8:28 and Ephesians 1:11 in light of your statement?
The circular reason of Calvinism is dizzying. I’m “free” to do what is predetermined for me to do is antinomy.
Address the arguments instead of just throwing out empty claims.
Doug, your illustration fails. It’s 100% Shakespeare and 0% Hamlet. Everyone can see that.
@@TheRomans9Guy agreed. I disagreed there too.
Hamlet plays a role in so far as his personality somewhat dictates what Shakespeare writes.
But Shakespeare has to ask himself, "what would hamlet do?"
@@ghostghillie.even then, "his" personality is literally just what's written. There is no Hamlet.
@user-kc7xk6wy2z People like me jump all over all of it because all of his thinking is really poor. His theology is poor and how he tries to relate his theology through analogies shows how poor it is. That’s all. It’s not like we are ok with his theology but are just being nit picky about the analogy he uses to illustrate it.
@user-kc7xk6wy2z No, it is categorically incorrect because he concludes with saying that the authorship is 100% Shakespeare and 100% Hamlet. In reality, it is 0% Hamlet. He then tries to say that humans have a choice in what they do, and then he goes on to say that regadless of our ability to choose the same things will happen.
This is, in a word, stupid.
@user-kc7xk6wy2z good point
7:00 “Can God unalterably write a scene in which I say certain things, freely.” No. That’s completely illogical and God is a god of perfect logic. Nope.
@user-kc7xk6wy2z That’s a silly cop out. “God’s goodness is beyond our comprehension…there fore I don’t have to be good.” No, sorry. God gave us logic and logic isn’t out of our grasp.
This man is a liar. He doesn't beleive half of what he says on this podcast! He's a Calvinist and therefore justifies his deceptive speech because he actually beleives God only loves the 'elect', which of course he is, and claims God is love. BUT because he thinks Calvinism is the true Gospel, Calvinists are free to use any means to 'teach it', lie, deceive, misinterpret verses etc etc just so they can make a convert! Remind you a group written about in the new testament?....The Pharisees!!
What a laughable discussion lol.
Bottom line, God didn’t ordain all things. That’s a made up thing. It’s not biblical, logical or helpful.
Can you give me a working definition of sovereignty? From the scripture. Not philosophy. Also, please be clear - not like Doug inserted “Gods will” into MT10:29 when it is not part of that verse.
I’ll start: Daniel 4:35, psalm 115:3, 16. Okay, you’re up lol.
@@jay1871 Alright. I like those passages in Daniel, and Psalms. Sounds like you're on my side, God does what he wants to do, not that God ordains all things. So far so good! And as Psalm 115:16 points out, he has given Earth to mankind to rule. He isn't ordaining what man does.
I would suggest Genesis 1, similar to Psalm 115, God created the world and judged it as good, but put man in charge of it. No ordination of all things here.
And as 1 Chronicles 29 says, he is over all. Including us. But he doesn't make our choices for us.
@@TheRomans9Guy well, yes. My goal was to just be neutral but yes lol. Very much so. I struggle with many people because almost everyone has their own in house definition of sovereignty which brings about a “same language, different dictionary, different baggage” situation in which parties speak past one another.
So what is sovereignty in YOUR words? I would say simply that in control ≠ controlling. The LORD GOD is on the throne of heaven and He is in control, not of my decisions, but rather He is in control in spite of my decisions. No man will stay His hand and He moves unhindered - if and when He moves.
@@jay1871 My definition matches yours. It’s a shame people confuse in control with “controlling.” Always makes me wonder about what else is going on in their lives…
Maybe I would add he is on the throne in heaven, and in his sovereignty, he decided to give us the ability to choose freely.
Thst doesnt happen very often on yt comments☺