As a faithful latter day saint, I have to say thanks for having Nick on - we need to listen and appreciate people where they are. I can never question anyone for following their conscience - we ought to celebrate that, as it takes enormous courage. Kudos to you all!
Bishops are not supposed to be giving counseling or therapy. They are supposed to refer members to meet with a therapist. And the church can help with those expenses. And the Bishop can certainly put himself in therapy and the church will pay for that. They can ask the stake president. These are all things in the handbook. I am wondering if this guy ever even read the handbook? He keeps talking these policies that should be implemented and followed and they are already in place. This interview truly baffles me.
A lot of bishops don't have time to keep up with all the changes to the handbook especially now that they happen more regularly. Clearly many bishops need better training!!
@@MichaelWalmsleyJrI have to disagree with you. This isn’t time consuming reading. You make it sound as if they aren’t able to do a bit of reading sometimes. It doesn’t take days to read from the instruction book. Maybe and hour or two.
@@kristinrichmond8185 I agree! Ideally, all bishops would have read the whole handbook and be able to remember all the key policies and procedures, but I can totally get why many like this guy seem to have missed a lot. I would expect things to be quite different if being a bishop was a full time paid gig.
Steven, this is probably the best episode I’ve listened to on your channel and the one that has really helped me understand you as a person the most. I really see your heart here and where you are coming from and I just want to say that the space that you are brave enough to fill is a beautiful one and an important one, and of course you already know that! Mormonism is absolutely fascinating to some people, I just happen to be one of them. But I actually converted and am now deconverted. I am with Nick, you, and Summer on this one. I hate the labels. I just want to be seen as me. Not for what I believe or don’t believe.
Nick, thank you. I have never sent anything considered “exmo” to my brother who is a bishop in Texas but I did get the courage to send your story of integrity and honesty to my bishop brother. I hope he watches it. Doubt he will but as we say “every member a missionary.” I care about my brother’s love for his congregation and want him to protect himself legally. Thank you Nick. I see great things in your future. Thanks Steve and Summer for hosting him. Great podcast.
That's disgusting and narcissistic... to really think that you are right and he is wrong and then having to "open his eyes" Let people practice their own faith... that's honestly what i thought MBR was all about....i thought it was about fair conversation not "I'm right and we need to save them" In this one episode of this, i went from watching a lot of his stuff to removing his content now because I'm not about this me vs you....i thought it was a channel about disagreeing but respecting each other as Jesus would want. It's obvious that it's not about that.
@curtisdecker3175 I appreciate you giving me your feedback. I knew that this would be a controversial episode. The goal of my channel has always been to get people talking to each other who normally wouldn't. You need to understand that behind the scenes I am helping facilitate conversations between Nick and faithful Latter Day Saints. This is just the beginning of the dialogue
@@MormonBookReviewsBrother please keep ip the dialogue. I am ex LDS, i have a totally different story to Nick's, i only have happy memories. I am now an evangelical Christian for 28 yesrs. You are only facilitating dialogue. Every one has a voice. Awesome podcast, God bless.
A close family member of mine was raped. Her bishop excommunicated her because he believed she must have been partially at fault. The man who did it was not excommunicated. A few years later in a different stake, she wanted to get rebaptized so she spoke to her new bishop. He read over the details of her excommunication and asked if her old bishop hated her because he never would have done that in her situation. Another casualty of bishop roulette
My heart goes out to your family member for telling the truth. We have to change the narrative about r*p*. No person ever needs anything but understanding and compassion after something this terrible and life changing. I say life changing with compassion and not in a bad way. Sending love.
People are praising nick for coming up with these “new”policies relating to interviews with young women etc. this stuff is LITERALLY in the handbook. I don’t know why he acts like he is first to ever think of such a thing Here is directly from the handbook: 31.1.4 Help the Member Feel Comfortable and Safe
I'm a member of the Church and my channel is faith-promoting, and sooner or later faithful members need to do some sort of apologetics with all criticisms coming from all sides. I've seen how some people now use me as an example of how stupid apologetics are. I felt exposed and quickly ridiculed, not on big channels, but by many people online. I wasn't ready for that level of criticism and hatred from both believers and non-believers and the answer I got was "Well, that's what happens when you go public." So I want to extend grace to Nick, Elder Bednar said that before we have any labels, we are mainly children of God, so before having the apologist label put up on me, I'm Gustavo, a child of God, and I believe Nick is first and foremost Nick, a child of God. We don't see eye to eye on many topics, but I know how confusing and stressful it can be to live a life (work, study, provide for a family) while dealing with the sheer anxiety that can come from being publicly vulnerable.
This is such a great conversation. I love people where there at and have friends all over the place. Because I choose to listen and even if I don’t agree w them doesn’t mean I’m not friends w them and it gives me perspective.
Nick had options here. He could have had an honest interview with his stake president and asked for counseling, asked for training, suggested his changes. Asked to be released. He didn't need to rage quit from the pulpit. Didn't need to listen to all the hateful antimormons. Didn't need to call members of his congregation brainwashed and programmed. He didn't need to choose to make him lose his faith.
This is his experience. Let’s offer him grace in his decision and appreciate that this was a hard experience for him. We are all just trying to do our best here.
All the hateful anti Mormons? Wow. This religion is not healthy and it’s very clear when people are able to open up about their experiences. You’re right, Nick did have options, and he chose to do it this way. There’s nothing wrong with being honest. Mormonism wants you to walk away silently. I absolutely despise that. Sure sign of a cult.
@@ShawnGordon The church’s system of missionary work is to “take people with them” because they believe what they are doing is correct. It goes both ways. If you believe what the church is doing is incorrect, then “ taking people with you” is the right moral decision.
@@suzieq5383, think it through a little more. This is a Bishop, he plotted and planned a grand exodus from the church, filming it and posting it and then getting as much press from willing fools as possible. The missionaries bring you a message in a positive fashion that you can accept or reject. From an LDS theology perspective, this former Bishop has put his soul in serious jeopardy and will be spending time in Outer Darkness for his actions. I feel bad for what he is going to experience.
As of now I've only been able to watch the first third of the conversation, since most of the time I have these days is on my dog walks. Just based on the first third, what Nick said regarding giving people an option to not be alone, especially for young women. As an Evangelical Christian with pastoral and ministry training, and a man, I would never, ever be alone in a meeting with a young woman ever. I want her to be safe, and I too want to be safe. The pastor you referenced Steve, is in my opinion right on. It protects both the pastor (in the CoJCoLDS case, Bishop) and the person speaking with the church leader. I'll try to listen to the rest over the next couple of days of dog walks, but it sounds fascinating.
I’m so sorry you have suffered as a Bishop, I am a member of the Church I rarely ever talk about my problems with a Bishop. I think it’s good that you resigned and no one should ever criticise you for this. They obviously need to have counselling for Bishops and to be able to easily leave the calling, if then need to. I’ve been a member for over 50 years I’ve been through a lot of stuff I joined on my own with my kids who have all left the Church. I’ve been in 2 bad car accidents one has left me with a very horrible disease in my nervous system, I can say absolutely that the Priesthood is very real I would not have survived without it. Also I really know that Jesus Christ is real and only wants the best for us, if you can’t handle the Church then it’s really okay and if people don’t understand, it’s too bad, and they are hypocrites if they treat you unkindly. I’m really sorry. I hope you find peace and know that God is there for you regardless of weather you go to Church or not
Stephen, I absolutely love listening to you. You are so warm and friendly and love just radiates from your being when you engage with people from all walks of life. Thank you. Nick Jones is an amazing man and I loved how he mentioned Mike from LDS Discussions in his MSP interview. I think it would be amazing for apologetics from the Church like Jim Bennet and Jacob Hansen, and Ward Radio guys to sit down and have some honest discussions w/ Mike from LDS discussions. And I think you would be the perfect moderator. What do you think? I am not sure if you have talked w/ Mike but on his website he says he is a member of record and does things w/out taking a dime from anyone. If FAIR Mormon or the church wants to attack him , they will have to do so on his merits. He is open anytime to a conversation about issues in the Church and to please message him. He promises to be respectful and honest. Anyways have a great day.
I was serving as a primary president and I could tell how overwhelmed the bishop was because it translated into overwhelm on me as primary president. The bishop is expected to be bishop as well as young mens president as well as mentor to the young women, and he took that very seriously. But that just led to the primary being cast aside as an under-appreciated babysitters program. Just one example- most of the great primary teachers we called were rapidly poached by the youth to serve there instead, and then the bishopric worked very slowly to call who we asked for replacements - but we weren't allowed to ask to call anyone already serving in another calling. Only the young men and young women organizations could do that. Bishop often suggested we ask certain people to be called who would not be appropriate for the calling. One example of this was a newer person in the ward - Bishop told me she asked to serve in primary. I went to meet her and explained that the bishop said she wanted to serve in primary, and I was wondering if she would like to be on our sub list first to see if she could find an age group that she'd like best... but I found she was in a wheelchair and so disabled with anxiety that she couldn't leave her home. She was confused and said she had never even met the bishop before, and yet he told me she asked him to serve in primary. I felt so embarrassed and she felt so ashamed explaining to me why she couldn't serve in primary. I could only apologize profusely. We were asked to call all kinds of people who didn't make sense, and who as a result never accepted the calling, or never showed up if they did. We started out with so many great teachers that wanted to be there. By the time I left, everyone we called was serving in the youth. It just was so unfortunate and exhausting to have to deal with in a very large primary of almost a hundred children. I had to quit just under two years of serving because my mental health was suffering, and as a result, my husband and children. When I tried to talk to the bishop about how depressed and overwhelmed I was, he just looked at me. I even mentioned to him that I was feeling triggered by certain abuse I dealt with as a child, and received no counsel or comfort. He just said, "Well, let me know if you can't handle this calling. I'll understand." I had just poured out my heart and he couldn't counsel me with scripture, or even express comfort or sympathy... but I know he wasn't equipped to help me. He was an overwhelmed optometrist who was told that his priority was the youth. When I took him up on the offer to leave the calling later on, he did offer to have the church pay for therapy for me. But I've experienced church therapy as a teenager, and it was more harmful than helpful. I think all of this was the catalyst to my shelf breaking, and I left the church not long after. I'm grateful I was able to turn to the Bible and find somewhere else to go: relationship with Jesus Christ. While I still feel frustrated by icky things I saw in ward counsel meetings and the behavior of the bishopric towards the primary, I also feel like the system is set up to play out that way because bishops just have way too much on their plate to begin with, and they are not properly equipped to deal with them.
Thats sad. I would have pursued that with the stake. If they were not going to sustain, then I would let them know that because they are not sustaining me, he can find another president.
As the widow of a faithful church leader, I felt that they pedestalized women, but the phrase I recently came across describes it best: Benevolent Sexism. I left the church after my husband passed. I will always love him, but at 78 years old, I am happier outside. I'm grateful for this podcast, and all the brave people who have faced up to spiritual abuse.
Lets be kind. Im a active member of the church. EQ President. I dont agree with everything Nick has mentioned for leaving the church and feel John manipulated the interview on Mormon stories however Nick is making some good points. There needs to be more training and support for leaders, especially Bishops. They carry a heavy burden as Judges in Israel. I like the idea of having a second person in interviews. I have often thought why isnt that required. It is in all other situations.
Let's be kind... but let's also be up-to-date ... even the Elder's Quorum president should know ~ and the ex-bishop should have know better ~ you guys are 6 years late to the party. | March 26, 2018, 7:32 p.m. | Mormon leaders unveil new rules allowing another adult in room for interviews By Peggy Fletcher Stack and Benjamin Wood | Updated: March 28, 2018, 9:17 a.m. the LDS Church’s governing First Presidency unveiled revised guidelines Monday for one-on-one meetings between members and local lay leaders while emphasizing that most abuse allegations are “true and should be taken seriously.” . In a document titled “Preventing and Responding to Abuse,” congregational leaders in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are encouraged to invite a parent or other adult to sit in an adjoining room when meeting with women and children. A change to those instructions includes the option for the interviewee to ask a witness to sit in on the interview itself. “If the person being interviewed desires,” it states, “another adult may be invited to participate in the interview.” .
When bishops do interviews, they have the ward executive secretary, or another Melchizedek Priesthood holder sit outside the door. This has been the rule for interviews with women and youth for a long time and more recently with everyone. (This is my experience as a ward executive secretary from 2015-2017, it has changed to where parents attend more often if I understand the change right) If I went to the bishop to talk to him, I would want it always to be between himself and myself, I wouldn't want another person in the room. On occasion when I was an Elders Quorum President, I would go in with a member of the quorum if he felt more comfortable with me being in the interview with him and the bishop, that wasn't in every case but when he asked, the bishop never said I couldn't go in with him.
The training could easily be paid for by using fractions of the $200 billion funds of Ensign Peak Advisors. But the First Presidency doesn't seem to care.
Having a second trusted adult present during a youth interview has been policy in the handbook since after Sam Young was excommunicated for calling out church leaders over the one-on-one interviews-so about 2019. But since new bishops get no training except for how to make sure tithing gets to Salt Lake ASAP, I’m not surprised Bishop Nick wasn’t aware of it. I’m a nearly 70 year old woman who was fortunate to have a branch president over 45 years ago, give me the Church Handbook to read before I was to teach a RS lesson on church courts. He wanted to make sure I understood how courts were supposed to work. I’ve had access to it periodically since and I’ve seen it grow and grow. No wonder leaders don’t know what’s in it! Who can keep up? The expectations on a bishop and his family are absolutely cruel. Steve makes so much sense about what is needed to better support bishops. But there’s one thing the church can never give up, it’s that many/most members continue to believe that the Holy Ghost is real, that there’s magic that occurs when a man is ordained bishop. Unfortunately, too many men believe the hype when they become one of the “chosen ones,.” So harmful!
Maybe because our family are converts and I had an alcoholic dad early in life, but I just don't understand why so many people who leave the church have to act like they have to go right for the alcohol to show off their perceived notion of newfound freedom. There was a time when I lost faith for a while, but I didn't immediately run to the store to get Budweiser and a pack of cigarettes or go get a girl pregnant. One more point I will make; I had a friend who was a bishop who either left the church while being the bishop or shortly after being released. On the surface he had the same issues as this former bishop but didn't tell anyone he left the church for several years. I don't blame the church for hiding its history as much as I blame members for being too lazy to study the history themselves. For example, it is common knowledge that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. We were taught that in seminary and you can see it in Section 132, it's obvious. But people fall away when they find out he did. We were also taught the different versions of the First Vision, but most people seem to have forgotten that, maybe because they went to early morning seminary and were not really awake yet or for whatever reason. But we were taught about it. The same with the seer stones and the urim and thumim.
If someone isn't enjoying their calling etc... they are free to be honest. Talk about it, speak with your stake leaders etc.. serving the Lord is enjoyable and a great blessing. If you aren’t ready or not comfortable that is perfectly fine, no one is forced to serve or accept callings within the Church.
The problem is that this man is 40 years old and never once had a beer or a coffee, but as soon as he leaves the church he starts. Why are you people living under a rock just for the sake of the rules and then blaming your problems on others? I’m a life-long member of the church btw.
I think one of Nicks Biggest problems is the fact that he didn't follow the handbook. Every person in the church who works with children is required to take the Youth Protection training immediately after being called to work with the youth and then every three years re-take the training. The handbook has always been clear that when interviewing a child, youth, or woman, there has to be another adult in the adjoining room, foyer or hall. He also should have know that if a person desires, another adult may be invited to be present during the interview. As far as counseling goes, The handbook tells Nick the only council he should be giving is spiritual. He would have had access to professional help and had the ability to cover those costs when people needed counseling.
@@kristinrichmond8185 The reason the church didn't work for Nick? Because he made it the Church of Nick following Nick's Rules. Take sacrament meeting under Nick. As a bishop, his job was to ensure the sacrament was administered correctly. The reason the Bishop takes it first is to show that it has been administered correctly to the congregation. Nick refused to do that. the bishop is supposed to plan sacrament meeting, talks, music etc. He was lazy so he would not give topics or prayerfully consider each Sunday Program. I guess in a way I am with Nick. I reject the Church of Nick Jones as well. I will say The funniest part of the interview with Delhin was the part where John asked Nick if his faith was ever shaken on his mission. Nick's reply: Oh no. I studied the scriptures 2 or 3 hours a day. I believed it in full. That's right. Nick held to the iron rod on his mission. What we are seeing is a direct result of letting go of the Rod.
Good job Bishop Nick, Steve and Summur . Glad Nick was vocal and public. It’s about time bishops started rising up and exposing the sham of the “gift of discernment.” But what an ordeal to go thru! My husband and I discussed the lack of training for bishops in our Mormon Stories interview a year ago-as have others, including the 2 serving bishop who appeared on MS last year. I’d be very surprised if the church created an actual training that bishops would receive prior to being sustained. The Utah Legislature is about to pass an abuse reporting bill that the church isn’t opposing. Why? Because the bishop will be on the hook if he doesn’t report, not the church. Leaving bishops hanging all on their own.
As an investigator of the church, he made me feel very uncomfortable and unwelcome. He called me out for sitting in his seat, which I had no idea as it was my first time there. I have never gone back since.
I was hoping to get ahold of Nick. I'm kind of a "neighbor" in that I live in Alabama. I've been noticing some pretty vitriolic responses to his story and it's very sad to see the "Saints" acting like "sinners" in their responses. But, it's not unexpected. When I realized that, were the situation reversed, I might well have done the same thing. Somehow seeing my own shortcomings in my leaving has helped keep the hurt tamped down. Nick, if I could say one thing to you during this time it's: take time away from this whole thing. Take a break. Give yourself time to breathe. I remember when I first left, a friend told someone else and I was asked to speak to the issue here and there. At first, I thought: about what? Then I realized that I needed to be away from Mormonism for a while. Just to take a break from the emotions of it. I spoke in a couple of places and even did a local newspaper interview (this was after I had been out a while). But I've always maintained a low profile, not out of fear but because I've always been a pretty private person. Years later, and after lots of study, I would choose my spiritual path. But that would take some time and a great deal of study. I had to learn to retrain my thinking from "I'm loved for what I do" to "I am loved for who I am". I would enjoy meeting you someday. I am old enough to be your Mom, so don't take that wrong, please lol. And if you do want to meet, I'll bring you some good, homemade cookies.
If I wanted to listen to exmo exit narratives I’d tune into Mormon Stories. I’ve heard enough from his interview there to know he never properly understood the LDS faith, and that nothing about his perspective is interesting or warrants any of my time, sorry. I’m more than open to hearing a diversity of viewpoints, but he and those like him offer nothing but standard (and frankly boring) exmo bilge. I truly wish him the best though, I hope he finds peace.
I'm not an outsider, but I would imagine that from an outsider's perspective someone who is called is supposed to properly understand the lds faith. Unfortunately, you are correct, that is not always the case.
@@artietate2348 He was a Bishop. Every Bishop is untrained and unqualified and called by an untrained, unqualified Stake President. If you trust Mormon Bishops, you don't have any common sense or self-respect
I also find it extremely odd he felt he shouldn’t be friendly to his neighbors. That’s the exact opposite of my understanding of Christ’s teachings. He either doesn’t understand the teachings or perhaps he is being false.
Steve ~ and the ex-bishop who should have know better ~ you guys are 6 years late to the party. | March 26, 2018, 7:32 p.m. | Mormon leaders unveil new rules allowing another adult in room for interviews By Peggy Fletcher Stack and Benjamin Wood | Updated: March 28, 2018, 9:17 a.m. the LDS Church’s governing First Presidency unveiled revised guidelines Monday for one-on-one meetings between members and local lay leaders while emphasizing that most abuse allegations are “true and should be taken seriously.” . In a document titled “Preventing and Responding to Abuse,” congregational leaders in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are encouraged to invite a parent or other adult to sit in an adjoining room when meeting with women and children. A change to those instructions includes the option for the interviewee to ask a witness to sit in on the interview itself. “If the person being interviewed desires,” it states, “another adult may be invited to participate in the interview.” . Steve ... i'm surprised ... you are usually up on these important things.
@@MormonBookReviews 31.1.4 reads: "Always give the member the option of having someone else be present during an interview or meeting. When meeting with a member of the opposite sex, a child, or a youth, ensure that a parent or another adult is present. He or she may join the meeting or wait outside the room, depending on the preferences of the member with whom you are meeting."
@@BrianTerrillIn your experience, is this common in the church that young women are interviewed in the presence of their parents? It seems most people report to be alone with the bishop.
The host gives some really great advice here to not throw out spirituality all together just because you have left a certain faith path. This is brilliant advice. The funny thing is that everything that nick says about being liberated from certain ways of living within the church are actually teaching the church preaches. He wasn’t living the gospel the way it is taught in the scriptures and gospel of Jesus Christ. If it takes for him to leave the church (which preaches those practices) to actually start living those correct gospel principles then so be it. The thing is, he didn’t have to leave the church to start living that way. You just have to start living what the gospel teaches and not what the cultural expectation of your particular circle of people are giving.
Idk but my daughter just had a bishop interview. It was just a check in. Took about 20 min and i was outside the door with the door slightly open a few inches. I could see the bishop but not my daughter. I later asked her what you talked about, and it was more getting to know her and her hobbies and how school is going. As well as what she is doing to grow her testimony. And to be careful about the internet and such. When there is a child interview, i or my husband are in the meeting. I my daughter who is a youth wanted me to go in i can. I asked her before and she said no.
Oh hey, funny story! I grew up LDS and never had coffee, tea, or chocolate. Until the time I went to a Baptist social. I wanted to know what the big deal was. So I tried all three AND the fully loaded Coca-Cola on the drink table. I woke up later in the ER. I had a caffeine overload! A cautionary tale.
No labels are needed? I believe the Savior clearly asked us to take His name upon us. Being a disciple of Jesus Christ is a very important identity to me. He does ask us to choose Him.
Are you referring to the one bible passage where this is mentioned, or the hundreds of times in the Book of Mormon in which Joseph Smith expanded this idea. It's more a 19th century American belief than a biblical doctrine.
You are asking about a work of fiction ? Isn’t there more important things right now? Not trying to be rude, I just don’t get your question with all the horrible events lately
All other issues aside, if you think 23 year old Joseph, raised on a farm, wrote such an internally complex book, in 65 days....then I have a bridge to sell you.
I feel like a lot of his issues with the way he seems to have thought he was supposed to value and view others were a product of interpretation and culture. I have never once heard anything from the pulpit telling the congregation to treat non-members as “less-than” or “unworthy” of our time and efforts because they look “wrong” or behave contrary to the “acceptable” norms. Now, that’s not to say that that sort of mentality does not exist, as it obviously does as told by Nick, and I’ve heard some really awful stories from perceived “outsiders” in religious communities of all sorts, but where in the doctrine and where in the teachings have we ever been told to see anyone as anything less than a fellow child of God??! That said, it is good to have the issues brought to light so that changes can be made, and I wish the people could be prepared faster to better accept the changes faster. Also, if you take a more balanced approach to examining the truth claims and church history, it is easier to come out the other side, or even continue down the tunnel, without totally losing everything. Remember your spiritual experiences and your spiritual anchors, remember your personal connection with God, have patience, and remember that hugely fallible humans are all that God has EVER had to work with. Get your information from more than one side, in or out of the church. At least the Saints books at the Joseph Smith Papers and all of the other things now are at least attempting to be transparent about the history and the truth claims. Get information from multiple views, not just one side only, ever, in all facets of life. Also remember that there is going to be evidence to support a total lack of God, just as much as there will be to support the existence of God. If your new information is all coming from the atheistic perspective, and you didn’t ever try to look outside of your old narrative or the new one, yeah, things are going to look VERY different than how you thought they were from inside the original bubble. We’re told to seek out information from the best books, we’re told to seek understanding by *study* AND by faith. Use both eyes, and get rid of the blinders, in or out of the church. Expose yourself to opposing views, and find the balance.
46:00 I never try to alienate people based on their political opinion, but at the same time, if anyone is calling for violence against marginalized groups, this is an abomination to the Lord and contrary to the teachings of Christ, and Jesus did not teach me passive non-resistance to evil, but positive responses to disable the evil actions of the doer for their own soul and humanity's sake. I call all misogynists, incels, regressives to repentance and to be reborn of the Spirit and enter into a new life in Christ as a liberated ascending child of the Almighty. If people knew the truth of all things the way Joseph Smith did, they would avoid all neo-Nazi movements.
I finally got time to watch the rest of the video. With regard to what Nick said regarding giving people an option to not be alone, especially for young women to me seems quite obvious. As an Evangelical Christian with pastoral and ministry training, and a man, I would never, ever be alone in a meeting with a young woman ever. I want her to be safe, and I, too, want to be safe. The pastor you referenced Steve, is in my opinion right on. It protects both the pastor (in the CoJCoLDS case, Bishop) and the person speaking with the church leader. Just a thought Nick, labels do divide, but labels also identify. Without labels things can get very fuzzy. And all people are made in God's image, no matter the label. The phrase "there are no absolutes" is still illogical since it's an absolute. I know that's something that people may argue with me about, but it's illogical to say there are no absolutes since that's an absolute statement. Once I learned of the song "Follow the Prophet" I immediately found it disturbing. As an outsider, it just came across weird. Overall it's an interesting discussion to hear from Nick's perspective. And yes, Nick, lack of vulnerability can be a huge problem. Being real is very, very important.
I'm sure the answer to my question is right before my eyes. I'm a Catholic priest who is fascinated with World Religions, especially the spiritual journeys of individuals. I have taught classes in the past based on this. The Religious Books I usually grow the most from are the journals, diaries, autobiographies of individuals spiritual journals regardless of the religion they belong to along with those who have no religion. I admire your podcasts very much. I wonder though what your spiritual journey is. How is it that an Evangelical hosts a podcast helping others live their faith, especially Mormons? Please point me towards the podcast where you have shared your journey. Thank you very much.
@@MormonBookReviews Many, many thanks. I am born and raised in Hawaii. The largest religion would be nothing. The second would be Buddhism, Shintoism Confucianism and other Asian Religions. It is difficult to have an accurate count since many are several at once depending on what stage of life they're at. For example Shinto blessings may be sought at birth since none exist at death, Buddhism would be observed ed at death. Catholicism is the third. Mormonism is the fourth. Catholicism and Mormonism arrived in the Islands around the same time. When Birmingham Young led the Mormon Flock to Utah, a group continued on to Hawaii. Because of the prejudices Hawaiians experienced from the Puritan Congregationalism of the founding missionaries, Catholicism and Mormonism fit better with the beliefs, practices and culture of the Hawaiians.
"Made John Dehlin's podcast" ?? 😢 Pretty sad that Nick considers that an accomplishment. "I don't need to scream mormonism is false from the rooftops" but yet I'm doing it on Reddit, TikTok, Mormon Stories, wink wink
Also, the handbook is a guide. So many senerios to. Bishop have to trust and have faith your in the position to shepherd the ward. We all know your human and not perfect. You just do your best and follow the spirit. It seems that the ex bishop had little confidence in himself. At the end of the day this is all volunteer work. No one expects perfection. I'm the primary president and i know if it's too much...i can go to my bishop and ask for a release. But like everything in life...I get burn out. I have 6 children doing the same thing over and over agian. I get brun out watching my own kid and house work. But i have a good perceive on what I'm doing is whats needed and i will have yo sacrifice my time for tge lords work. It won't be easy but one day it will change. When i feel overwhelme i just do less and take a day or two off and I'm so much better.
The guest makes some good criticism of church policy, but I'm not hearing any doctrine arguments to justify becoming atheist. Seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater by starting at "church leadership needs to make some real changes in policy to protect the youth and women" and then jumping to the conclusion of atheism is the right path. Multiple fundamental errors are posited from the guests depiction of church doctrine. I would encourage him to speak with higher authorities in the church with his doctrinal concerns regardless whether he chooses to return or not.
I am not sure whether church authorities are more versed in church doctrine. When you see the recent discussions about "mixed messages in the church", there is obviously no clear picture about what constitutes doctrine, and in which direction the church is moving.
The problem is the policies exist right in the handbook for all of us to see and he's stating that they are not in the handbook. A bishop is supposed to be familiar with those.
@@BrianTerrill I'm not entirely read up on the handbook to be honest since I haven't really been put in such a position. I guess a better way to say it is assuming the premise he gives is true, that the problem is with a policy, he chooses to leave Christ altogether and presumably hand over his responsibility to another that will act in a way that he doesn't agree with for all the youth and women in his former ward.
Nick... I made some super appreciative comments to you and your wife on Mormon Stories, immediately after it was aired. But I am being "Censored" because I made comments regarding the first presidency recommending the shot... That was proof to me that there was no devine prophetic inspiration.
Steven, can you clarify something? I've heard you say that you have a ministry. What does that mean exactly? Being the Switzerland of mormonism is one thing, but it doesn't seem to gel with also being a ministry of some sort. I'm confused. You have been very open about being friends with John Dehlin. I decided early on that I could never subscribe to your channel because of this. I do watch some of your videos, and I think that you are a great guy. I just feel really uneasy with this particular video. It seems like you might want to become the next "Mormon stories" when John Dehlin retires. Please say it isn't so 😢
I've had on freinds and critics of the church here on MBR since the very beginning of this channel. Mormon Book Reviews intends not to be the "next anything". We have carved out a unique identity and will continue to be about the only independent, neutral platform in this space.
Sorry but you stepped down you didn't have to go public with this there is other ways to get this resolved, boowoo! Just get on with your life, you are looking for justification of your decision. It's nobody's business. Get on with your life.
MBR is really showing his intent..... he's a wolf.... I'm done watching his content. He really exposed himself in this one by his obvious biased reactions I imagine he's about to lose a lot of his lds audience and about to really boom in the exmo community....props for the brilliant marketing strategy but I'm out.
@@curtisdecker3175It is interesting to see how sensitive members are to criticism. If you cannot face criticism,why did you come to this earth at all? You should have stayed in the cosy preexistence.
@@charlesmendeley9823 its not criticism that i care about. I'm a mormon in Arkansas. You think i don't hear it daily? It's the pretend friendship that is being used. Pretending that the church saved his life as he uses his life to reconstruct and deconstruct others...... call it sensitive all you want but i call it grossly deceptive. I'm the only mormon in my family btw..... but i have my testimony about the gospel saving my life.. mentally and actually physically when i was in a car accident dec 4th 2022....i knew the church was true before that morning but after the wreck, i learned of things that can't be explained that testified to me that nobody can convince me otherwise..... but again...i see someone dressing up and brandishing byu apparel while trying to reconstruct us... and i have an issue with that.
It is already church policy to have another person in the room when interviewing young women or even young men. It has been for a few years. I agree that better training is needed for Bishops.
This has been a policy for years, it was when I was Bishop years ago. This is an over blown issue, because if it happens it is not proper practice. It seems to me it is being used as a weapon by disillusioned members as an excuse To criticize the church. The vast majority of Bishop’s follow the hand book and training.
The parts of Mormon Stories I watched of this guy make me really skeptical of this guy. I am glad you want to have all voices of the restoration here, but the same things he said are old recycled garbage that many ex-mos spill out typically. It always comes down to a lack of understanding doctrinal nuance and metaphor and lack of desire to study by faith.
Your "old recycled garbage" is instead "shared similar beliefs and experiences" to others. The fact that many feel the same way means that the issues that people experienced in the church are widespread, rather than "Hey I heard this ex-mo talk and I think I'll just say the same thing." I left before I found ex-mo reddit and before finding YT podcasts and I had little contact with ex-mos and yet, everything they say I can say, because the experiences are the same. Be introspective about the church and see that shared experiences are a red flag.
I feel the same when I hear formulaic stories and arguements whether from exmormon, excatholic, exmuslim, exjew etc I engage with a lot of different communities and am instantly turned off by insincerity when I see it because it's glaring to me
@@elijahhawaii that's because exmos were exmos before podcast and the internet. The Tanners were publishing things a long time before podcast existed. It's just back then, people had to read.
@@BrianTerrill I hate reading. I never read any of that either. I am still sitting here watching podcasts practically predicting the words because of the shared experiences. So.......
"Bishop Roulette" is a very demeaning term. These are good men who are trying their best. For a supposed middle of the road podcast, using terms like this shows your true colors. Hard to have a decent conversation when resorting to name calling.
The topic of masturbation as a "sexual sin" extends beyond religious institutions, as secular resources also support this viewpoint. These resources emphasize the addictive nature of masturbation and the potential negative consequences it can have. Similarly, when it comes to substances like coffee and alcohol, there is a wealth of information available regarding their effects. Ultimately, the decision of whether to engage in these activities lies with each individual. But not the consequences. Sorry that this bishop did not know about therapy service within the church. Being a bishop is a great responsibility and requires self care first. This bishop did his best, but it doesn’t mean that he knows the best. Thanks Steve for your willingness to bring more light. God and Christ are the ultimate light.
I knew a guy that was lds , he wanted to be happy and left the church , he began having new girlfriends, he catch a sexual transmitted disease, see the lord established his church and commandments for a reason , this bishop is so weak , I’m glad he is out , we don’t need him , we need bishops that are strong , brave and valiant, I was bishop once , and let me tell you it was so hard , but it was so worth it , I save marriages and souls onto Christ, and I’m still serving, I’m glad he is out , even though deep inside me , and thinking as a Lds Christian type ,I feel compassion for him and his family
Incredible episode. We of #SecondMileChristianity recognize Nick as a powerful example of true Christ-like masculinity and invite the lost confused men of the younger generation to turn from the false MRA ideology and listen to all podcasts that feature this guy. Amen.
Well, since Elder Holland gave the famous "musket fire talk" at BYU, he probably meant that literally as well. So I assume you vote oppose during general conference?
And with Ensign Peak Advisors, they invest the surplus tithing in the US stock market, including Amazon, Google, Microsoft. And these make revenue from porn, including gay porn. Thus, the LDS Church is directly profiting from gay porn.
Many people left the church before Joseph Smith was killed because he had adulterous relationships, committed bank fraud, and other misconduct. People leave today because the church is still very poorly led. Nick did an honorable thing leaving and telling his story.
@@MormonBookReviewsif they apostitize, are they really a voice of the *restoration*? I would say no. They are certainly the voice of something, but not the restoration. Maybe the voice of deconstruction?
@@DesertPrimrose I've had people who have left the church or have been excommunicated on MBR since the beginning of the channel. They are always going to be part of the conversation.
@@DesertPrimrosethis guy is disgusting... going around like a wolf in sheeps clothing. He's disgusting. Clearly a liar who is profiteering. I thought he was a good guy honestly, i thought he was actually trying to be fair, walking around wearing byu apparel and then targeting mormons individually..... like really, the world is full of atheists, loaded with non believers.... and he focuses his efforts on those of lds faith Jesus did not ask his apostles to preach to the Samaritans because he had a strong liking and respect for them, he knew that in the end, they were good people. This guy is really showing who he is lately he's turning into john dehlin and jeff durbin.
I've had on critics, people who left or were excommunicated from the church since the very beginning of this channel. We talk to everyone on MBR. John Dehlin is a friend, I've always been open about that. Jeff Durbin is someone I've been openly critical of for years.
As a faithful latter day saint, I have to say thanks for having Nick on - we need to listen and appreciate people where they are. I can never question anyone for following their conscience - we ought to celebrate that, as it takes enormous courage. Kudos to you all!
The Church policy to have other adults in the room with youth came out years ago. I asked adults to come on to interviews at least 5 years ago.
Thank Sam Young for bringing this need to light. The church excommunicated him then initiated this practice that he pushed for.
Bishops are not supposed to be giving counseling or therapy. They are supposed to refer members to meet with a therapist. And the church can help with those expenses. And the Bishop can certainly put himself in therapy and the church will pay for that. They can ask the stake president. These are all things in the handbook. I am wondering if this guy ever even read the handbook? He keeps talking these policies that should be implemented and followed and they are already in place. This interview truly baffles me.
A lot of bishops don't have time to keep up with all the changes to the handbook especially now that they happen more regularly.
Clearly many bishops need better training!!
@@MichaelWalmsleyJrI have to disagree with you. This isn’t time consuming reading. You make it sound as if they aren’t able to do a bit of reading sometimes. It doesn’t take days to read from the instruction book. Maybe and hour or two.
@@kristinrichmond8185 I agree! Ideally, all bishops would have read the whole handbook and be able to remember all the key policies and procedures, but I can totally get why many like this guy seem to have missed a lot. I would expect things to be quite different if being a bishop was a full time paid gig.
And the whole world had seen the therapist that these people recommended and paid. Jody Hillenbrand! That is NOT ok.
Nick you’re not speaking for the normal Bishops. Therapy?
You keep acting like your reaction to being a bishop is normal. It’s not.
Steven, this is probably the best episode I’ve listened to on your channel and the one that has really helped me understand you as a person the most. I really see your heart here and where you are coming from and I just want to say that the space that you are brave enough to fill is a beautiful one and an important one, and of course you already know that! Mormonism is absolutely fascinating to some people, I just happen to be one of them. But I actually converted and am now deconverted. I am with Nick, you, and Summer on this one. I hate the labels. I just want to be seen as me. Not for what I believe or don’t believe.
Nick, thank you. I have never sent anything considered “exmo” to my brother who is a bishop in Texas but I did get the courage to send your story of integrity and honesty to my bishop brother. I hope he watches it. Doubt he will but as we say “every member a missionary.” I care about my brother’s love for his congregation and want him to protect himself legally. Thank you Nick. I see great things in your future.
Thanks Steve and Summer for hosting him. Great podcast.
That's disgusting and narcissistic... to really think that you are right and he is wrong and then having to "open his eyes"
Let people practice their own faith... that's honestly what i thought MBR was all about....i thought it was about fair conversation not "I'm right and we need to save them"
In this one episode of this, i went from watching a lot of his stuff to removing his content now because I'm not about this me vs you....i thought it was a channel about disagreeing but respecting each other as Jesus would want. It's obvious that it's not about that.
@curtisdecker3175 I appreciate you giving me your feedback. I knew that this would be a controversial episode. The goal of my channel has always been to get people talking to each other who normally wouldn't. You need to understand that behind the scenes I am helping facilitate conversations between Nick and faithful Latter Day Saints. This is just the beginning of the dialogue
@@MormonBookReviewsBrother please keep ip the dialogue. I am ex LDS, i have a totally different story to Nick's, i only have happy memories. I am now an evangelical Christian for 28 yesrs. You are only facilitating dialogue. Every one has a voice. Awesome podcast, God bless.
@@MormonBookReviews no it was sensationalized and manipulative as if Nick was a norm? Which isn’t even close.
@@curtisdecker3175 Exactly!!!
My sister happened to be recording me that Sunday. She had no idea I was about to become famous.
That’s the first miracle in Nicks life.
A close family member of mine was raped. Her bishop excommunicated her because he believed she must have been partially at fault. The man who did it was not excommunicated. A few years later in a different stake, she wanted to get rebaptized so she spoke to her new bishop. He read over the details of her excommunication and asked if her old bishop hated her because he never would have done that in her situation. Another casualty of bishop roulette
That’s disgusting
Sometimes the youth are too honest with church leaders, I taught mine to be honest, what a freakin mistake I made
My heart goes out to your family member for telling the truth. We have to change the narrative about r*p*. No person ever needs anything but understanding and compassion after something this terrible and life changing. I say life changing with compassion and not in a bad way. Sending love.
Sorry, Bishop's don't do that.
I doubt this
People are praising nick for coming up with these “new”policies relating to interviews with young women etc. this stuff is LITERALLY in the handbook. I don’t know why he acts like he is first to ever think of such a thing
Here is directly from the handbook:
31.1.4
Help the Member Feel Comfortable and Safe
You were amazing on Mormon Stories. And your feelings of distress were valid. I’m happy you came on and for honesty and transparency.
I'm a member of the Church and my channel is faith-promoting, and sooner or later faithful members need to do some sort of apologetics with all criticisms coming from all sides. I've seen how some people now use me as an example of how stupid apologetics are. I felt exposed and quickly ridiculed, not on big channels, but by many people online. I wasn't ready for that level of criticism and hatred from both believers and non-believers and the answer I got was "Well, that's what happens when you go public." So I want to extend grace to Nick, Elder Bednar said that before we have any labels, we are mainly children of God, so before having the apologist label put up on me, I'm Gustavo, a child of God, and I believe Nick is first and foremost Nick, a child of God. We don't see eye to eye on many topics, but I know how confusing and stressful it can be to live a life (work, study, provide for a family) while dealing with the sheer anxiety that can come from being publicly vulnerable.
This is such a great conversation. I love people where there at and have friends all over the place. Because I choose to listen and even if I don’t agree w them doesn’t mean I’m not friends w them and it gives me perspective.
Nick had options here. He could have had an honest interview with his stake president and asked for counseling, asked for training, suggested his changes. Asked to be released. He didn't need to rage quit from the pulpit. Didn't need to listen to all the hateful antimormons. Didn't need to call members of his congregation brainwashed and programmed. He didn't need to choose to make him lose his faith.
This is his experience. Let’s offer him grace in his decision and appreciate that this was a hard experience for him. We are all just trying to do our best here.
All the hateful anti Mormons? Wow. This religion is not healthy and it’s very clear when people are able to open up about their experiences. You’re right, Nick did have options, and he chose to do it this way. There’s nothing wrong with being honest. Mormonism wants you to walk away silently. I absolutely despise that. Sure sign of a cult.
@@markbuckwalter1997 he's trying to take people with him and ruin their salvation as well. That's evil.
@@ShawnGordon The church’s system of missionary work is to “take people with them” because they believe what they are doing is correct. It goes both ways. If you believe what the church is doing is incorrect, then “ taking people with you” is the right moral decision.
@@suzieq5383, think it through a little more. This is a Bishop, he plotted and planned a grand exodus from the church, filming it and posting it and then getting as much press from willing fools as possible. The missionaries bring you a message in a positive fashion that you can accept or reject. From an LDS theology perspective, this former Bishop has put his soul in serious jeopardy and will be spending time in Outer Darkness for his actions. I feel bad for what he is going to experience.
As of now I've only been able to watch the first third of the conversation, since most of the time I have these days is on my dog walks.
Just based on the first third, what Nick said regarding giving people an option to not be alone, especially for young women. As an Evangelical Christian with pastoral and ministry training, and a man, I would never, ever be alone in a meeting with a young woman ever. I want her to be safe, and I too want to be safe. The pastor you referenced Steve, is in my opinion right on. It protects both the pastor (in the CoJCoLDS case, Bishop) and the person speaking with the church leader.
I'll try to listen to the rest over the next couple of days of dog walks, but it sounds fascinating.
Nick Jones is so courageous to tell his story. Many people are just keeping quiet in spite of obvious issues in the Church.
I’m so sorry you have suffered as a Bishop,
I am a member of the Church I rarely ever talk about my problems with a Bishop.
I think it’s good that you resigned and no one should ever criticise you for this. They obviously need to have counselling for Bishops and to be able to easily leave the calling, if then need to.
I’ve been a member for over 50 years I’ve been through a lot of stuff I joined on my own with my kids who have all left the Church.
I’ve been in 2 bad car accidents one has left me with a very horrible disease in my nervous system, I can say absolutely that the Priesthood is very real I would not have survived without it.
Also I really know that Jesus Christ is real and only wants the best for us, if you can’t handle the Church then it’s really okay and if people
don’t understand, it’s too bad, and they are hypocrites if they treat you unkindly. I’m really sorry. I hope you find peace and know that God is there for you regardless of weather
you go to Church or not
Stephen, I absolutely love listening to you. You are so warm and friendly and love just radiates from your being when you engage with people from all walks of life. Thank you. Nick Jones is an amazing man and I loved how he mentioned Mike from LDS Discussions in his MSP interview. I think it would be amazing for apologetics from the Church like Jim Bennet and Jacob Hansen, and Ward Radio guys to sit down and have some honest discussions w/ Mike from LDS discussions. And I think you would be the perfect moderator. What do you think? I am not sure if you have talked w/ Mike but on his website he says he is a member of record and does things w/out taking a dime from anyone. If FAIR Mormon or the church wants to attack him , they will have to do so on his merits. He is open anytime to a conversation about issues in the Church and to please message him. He promises to be respectful and honest. Anyways have a great day.
Oops, I meant Steven 😊
I was serving as a primary president and I could tell how overwhelmed the bishop was because it translated into overwhelm on me as primary president. The bishop is expected to be bishop as well as young mens president as well as mentor to the young women, and he took that very seriously. But that just led to the primary being cast aside as an under-appreciated babysitters program. Just one example- most of the great primary teachers we called were rapidly poached by the youth to serve there instead, and then the bishopric worked very slowly to call who we asked for replacements - but we weren't allowed to ask to call anyone already serving in another calling. Only the young men and young women organizations could do that. Bishop often suggested we ask certain people to be called who would not be appropriate for the calling. One example of this was a newer person in the ward - Bishop told me she asked to serve in primary. I went to meet her and explained that the bishop said she wanted to serve in primary, and I was wondering if she would like to be on our sub list first to see if she could find an age group that she'd like best... but I found she was in a wheelchair and so disabled with anxiety that she couldn't leave her home. She was confused and said she had never even met the bishop before, and yet he told me she asked him to serve in primary. I felt so embarrassed and she felt so ashamed explaining to me why she couldn't serve in primary. I could only apologize profusely. We were asked to call all kinds of people who didn't make sense, and who as a result never accepted the calling, or never showed up if they did. We started out with so many great teachers that wanted to be there. By the time I left, everyone we called was serving in the youth. It just was so unfortunate and exhausting to have to deal with in a very large primary of almost a hundred children. I had to quit just under two years of serving because my mental health was suffering, and as a result, my husband and children. When I tried to talk to the bishop about how depressed and overwhelmed I was, he just looked at me. I even mentioned to him that I was feeling triggered by certain abuse I dealt with as a child, and received no counsel or comfort. He just said, "Well, let me know if you can't handle this calling. I'll understand." I had just poured out my heart and he couldn't counsel me with scripture, or even express comfort or sympathy... but I know he wasn't equipped to help me. He was an overwhelmed optometrist who was told that his priority was the youth. When I took him up on the offer to leave the calling later on, he did offer to have the church pay for therapy for me. But I've experienced church therapy as a teenager, and it was more harmful than helpful. I think all of this was the catalyst to my shelf breaking, and I left the church not long after. I'm grateful I was able to turn to the Bible and find somewhere else to go: relationship with Jesus Christ. While I still feel frustrated by icky things I saw in ward counsel meetings and the behavior of the bishopric towards the primary, I also feel like the system is set up to play out that way because bishops just have way too much on their plate to begin with, and they are not properly equipped to deal with them.
Thats sad. I would have pursued that with the stake. If they were not going to sustain, then I would let them know that because they are not sustaining me, he can find another president.
As the widow of a faithful church leader, I felt that they pedestalized women, but the phrase I recently came across describes it best: Benevolent Sexism. I left the church after my husband passed. I will always love him, but at 78 years old, I am happier outside. I'm grateful for this podcast, and all the brave people who have faced up to spiritual abuse.
Lets be kind. Im a active member of the church. EQ President. I dont agree with everything Nick has mentioned for leaving the church and feel John manipulated the interview on Mormon stories however Nick is making some good points. There needs to be more training and support for leaders, especially Bishops. They carry a heavy burden as Judges in Israel. I like the idea of having a second person in interviews. I have often thought why isnt that required. It is in all other situations.
Yes. Let's be kind!
Let's be kind... but let's also be up-to-date ... even the Elder's Quorum president should know ~ and the ex-bishop should have know better ~ you guys are 6 years late to the party. | March 26, 2018, 7:32 p.m. | Mormon leaders unveil new rules allowing another adult in room for interviews By Peggy Fletcher Stack and Benjamin Wood | Updated: March 28, 2018, 9:17 a.m. the LDS Church’s governing First Presidency unveiled revised guidelines Monday for one-on-one meetings between members and local lay leaders while emphasizing that most abuse allegations are “true and should be taken seriously.”
.
In a document titled “Preventing and Responding to Abuse,” congregational leaders in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are encouraged to invite a parent or other adult to sit in an adjoining room when meeting with women and children.
A change to those instructions includes the option for the interviewee to ask a witness to sit in on the interview itself.
“If the person being interviewed desires,” it states, “another adult may be invited to participate in the interview.”
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When bishops do interviews, they have the ward executive secretary, or another Melchizedek Priesthood holder sit outside the door. This has been the rule for interviews with women and youth for a long time and more recently with everyone. (This is my experience as a ward executive secretary from 2015-2017, it has changed to where parents attend more often if I understand the change right)
If I went to the bishop to talk to him, I would want it always to be between himself and myself, I wouldn't want another person in the room.
On occasion when I was an Elders Quorum President, I would go in with a member of the quorum if he felt more comfortable with me being in the interview with him and the bishop, that wasn't in every case but when he asked, the bishop never said I couldn't go in with him.
The training could easily be paid for by using fractions of the $200 billion funds of Ensign Peak Advisors. But the First Presidency doesn't seem to care.
The Church encouraged us to ask others into youth interviews years ago. 5 years ago I started inviting parents or youth leaders into interviews.
Having a second trusted adult present during a youth interview has been policy in the handbook since after Sam Young was excommunicated for calling out church leaders over the one-on-one interviews-so about 2019. But since new bishops get no training except for how to make sure tithing gets to Salt Lake ASAP, I’m not surprised Bishop Nick wasn’t aware of it. I’m a nearly 70 year old woman who was fortunate to have a branch president over 45 years ago, give me the Church Handbook to read before I was to teach a RS lesson on church courts. He wanted to make sure I understood how courts were supposed to work. I’ve had access to it periodically since and I’ve seen it grow and grow. No wonder leaders don’t know what’s in it! Who can keep up? The expectations on a bishop and his family are absolutely cruel. Steve makes so much sense about what is needed to better support bishops. But there’s one thing the church can never give up, it’s that many/most members continue to believe that the Holy Ghost is real, that there’s magic that occurs when a man is ordained bishop. Unfortunately, too many men believe the hype when they become one of the “chosen ones,.” So harmful!
Maybe because our family are converts and I had an alcoholic dad early in life, but I just don't understand why so many people who leave the church have to act like they have to go right for the alcohol to show off their perceived notion of newfound freedom. There was a time when I lost faith for a while, but I didn't immediately run to the store to get Budweiser and a pack of cigarettes or go get a girl pregnant.
One more point I will make; I had a friend who was a bishop who either left the church while being the bishop or shortly after being released. On the surface he had the same issues as this former bishop but didn't tell anyone he left the church for several years.
I don't blame the church for hiding its history as much as I blame members for being too lazy to study the history themselves. For example, it is common knowledge that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. We were taught that in seminary and you can see it in Section 132, it's obvious. But people fall away when they find out he did. We were also taught the different versions of the First Vision, but most people seem to have forgotten that, maybe because they went to early morning seminary and were not really awake yet or for whatever reason. But we were taught about it. The same with the seer stones and the urim and thumim.
exactly, I am not sure the love for alcohol people have after leaving the church. Beer and wine are such low vibe addictions
Great conversation! ❤
"There are no absolutes"
Are you sure about that?
Absolutely sure?
If someone isn't enjoying their calling etc... they are free to be honest. Talk about it, speak with your stake leaders etc.. serving the Lord is enjoyable and a great blessing. If you aren’t ready or not comfortable that is perfectly fine, no one is forced to serve or accept callings within the Church.
The problem is that this man is 40 years old and never once had a beer or a coffee, but as soon as he leaves the church he starts. Why are you people living under a rock just for the sake of the rules and then blaming your problems on others? I’m a life-long member of the church btw.
I think one of Nicks Biggest problems is the fact that he didn't follow the handbook. Every person in the church who works with children is required to take the Youth Protection training immediately after being called to work with the youth and then every three years re-take the training. The handbook has always been clear that when interviewing a child, youth, or woman, there has to be another adult in the adjoining room, foyer or hall. He also should have know that if a person desires, another adult may be invited to be present during the interview. As far as counseling goes, The handbook tells Nick the only council he should be giving is spiritual. He would have had access to professional help and had the ability to cover those costs when people needed counseling.
Thank you for saying this.
@@kristinrichmond8185 The reason the church didn't work for Nick? Because he made it the Church of Nick following Nick's Rules. Take sacrament meeting under Nick. As a bishop, his job was to ensure the sacrament was administered correctly. The reason the Bishop takes it first is to show that it has been administered correctly to the congregation. Nick refused to do that. the bishop is supposed to plan sacrament meeting, talks, music etc. He was lazy so he would not give topics or prayerfully consider each Sunday Program.
I guess in a way I am with Nick. I reject the Church of Nick Jones as well.
I will say The funniest part of the interview with Delhin was the part where John asked Nick if his faith was ever shaken on his mission. Nick's reply: Oh no. I studied the scriptures 2 or 3 hours a day. I believed it in full.
That's right. Nick held to the iron rod on his mission. What we are seeing is a direct result of letting go of the Rod.
I've never been forced to meet with the bishop alone, we all have the freedom to choose.
Good job Bishop Nick, Steve and Summur . Glad Nick was vocal and public. It’s about time bishops started rising up and exposing the sham of the “gift of discernment.” But what an ordeal to go thru! My husband and I discussed the lack of training for bishops in our Mormon Stories interview a year ago-as have others, including the 2 serving bishop who appeared on MS last year. I’d be very surprised if the church created an actual training that bishops would receive prior to being sustained. The Utah Legislature is about to pass an abuse reporting bill that the church isn’t opposing. Why? Because the bishop will be on the hook if he doesn’t report, not the church. Leaving bishops hanging all on their own.
Welcome aboard Summur!
BISHOPS SHOULD BE PAID. PERIOD.
As an investigator of the church, he made me feel very uncomfortable and unwelcome. He called me out for sitting in his seat, which I had no idea as it was my first time there. I have never gone back since.
What Nick is saying is what every Ex-Mormon sits with. This is such an important conversation! Bravo for having him on!
I was hoping to get ahold of Nick. I'm kind of a "neighbor" in that I live in Alabama. I've been noticing some pretty vitriolic responses to his story and it's very sad to see the "Saints" acting like "sinners" in their responses. But, it's not unexpected. When I realized that, were the situation reversed, I might well have done the same thing.
Somehow seeing my own shortcomings in my leaving has helped keep the hurt tamped down.
Nick, if I could say one thing to you during this time it's: take time away from this whole thing. Take a break. Give yourself time to breathe. I remember when I first left, a friend told someone else and I was asked to speak to the issue here and there. At first, I thought: about what? Then I realized that I needed to be away from Mormonism for a while. Just to take a break from the emotions of it. I spoke in a couple of places and even did a local newspaper interview (this was after I had been out a while). But I've always maintained a low profile, not out of fear but because I've always been a pretty private person.
Years later, and after lots of study, I would choose my spiritual path. But that would take some time and a great deal of study.
I had to learn to retrain my thinking from "I'm loved for what I do" to "I am loved for who I am".
I would enjoy meeting you someday. I am old enough to be your Mom, so don't take that wrong, please lol.
And if you do want to meet, I'll bring you some good, homemade cookies.
I love this awakening. It's hard. Very hard. Then it becomes thrilling.
If I wanted to listen to exmo exit narratives I’d tune into Mormon Stories. I’ve heard enough from his interview there to know he never properly understood the LDS faith, and that nothing about his perspective is interesting or warrants any of my time, sorry. I’m more than open to hearing a diversity of viewpoints, but he and those like him offer nothing but standard (and frankly boring) exmo bilge. I truly wish him the best though, I hope he finds peace.
I'm not an outsider, but I would imagine that from an outsider's perspective someone who is called is supposed to properly understand the lds faith. Unfortunately, you are correct, that is not always the case.
He understood LDS faith enough to be called as a Bishop
@@nathanbigler But so little that he thought he couldn’t be friendly to a neighbor.
@@artietate2348 He was a Bishop. Every Bishop is untrained and unqualified and called by an untrained, unqualified Stake President.
If you trust Mormon Bishops, you don't have any common sense or self-respect
I also find it extremely odd he felt he shouldn’t be friendly to his neighbors. That’s the exact opposite of my understanding of Christ’s teachings. He either doesn’t understand the teachings or perhaps he is being false.
Summer's hair is awesome! I'm gonna have to up my game
Steve ~ and the ex-bishop who should have know better ~ you guys are 6 years late to the party. | March 26, 2018, 7:32 p.m. | Mormon leaders unveil new rules allowing another adult in room for interviews By Peggy Fletcher Stack and Benjamin Wood | Updated: March 28, 2018, 9:17 a.m. the LDS Church’s governing First Presidency unveiled revised guidelines Monday for one-on-one meetings between members and local lay leaders while emphasizing that most abuse allegations are “true and should be taken seriously.”
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In a document titled “Preventing and Responding to Abuse,” congregational leaders in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are encouraged to invite a parent or other adult to sit in an adjoining room when meeting with women and children.
A change to those instructions includes the option for the interviewee to ask a witness to sit in on the interview itself.
“If the person being interviewed desires,” it states, “another adult may be invited to participate in the interview.”
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Steve ... i'm surprised ... you are usually up on these important things.
Thanks for sharing this. It's important that we get all the information out there!
Also do you know if this is in the Handbook?
@@MormonBookReviews 31.1.4 reads: "Always give the member the option of having someone else be present during an interview or meeting. When meeting with a member of the opposite sex, a child, or a youth, ensure that a parent or another adult is present. He or she may join the meeting or wait outside the room, depending on the preferences of the member with whom you are meeting."
@@BrianTerrillIn your experience, is this common in the church that young women are interviewed in the presence of their parents? It seems most people report to be alone with the bishop.
Yes I don't think this guy read the training materials. He should definitely have had people in the youth interviews.
The host gives some really great advice here to not throw out spirituality all together just because you have left a certain faith path. This is brilliant advice. The funny thing is that everything that nick says about being liberated from certain ways of living within the church are actually teaching the church preaches. He wasn’t living the gospel the way it is taught in the scriptures and gospel of Jesus Christ. If it takes for him to leave the church (which preaches those practices) to actually start living those correct gospel principles then so be it. The thing is, he didn’t have to leave the church to start living that way. You just have to start living what the gospel teaches and not what the cultural expectation of your particular circle of people are giving.
Idk but my daughter just had a bishop interview. It was just a check in. Took about 20 min and i was outside the door with the door slightly open a few inches. I could see the bishop but not my daughter. I later asked her what you talked about, and it was more getting to know her and her hobbies and how school is going. As well as what she is doing to grow her testimony. And to be careful about the internet and such. When there is a child interview, i or my husband are in the meeting. I my daughter who is a youth wanted me to go in i can. I asked her before and she said no.
Oh hey, funny story! I grew up LDS and never had coffee, tea, or chocolate. Until the time I went to a Baptist social. I wanted to know what the big deal was. So I tried all three AND the fully loaded Coca-Cola on the drink table.
I woke up later in the ER. I had a caffeine overload!
A cautionary tale.
IF SATAN CAN’T MAKE YOU BAD, HE’LL MAKE YOU BUSY
No labels are needed? I believe the Savior clearly asked us to take His name upon us. Being a disciple of Jesus Christ is a very important identity to me. He does ask us to choose Him.
Are you referring to the one bible passage where this is mentioned, or the hundreds of times in the Book of Mormon in which Joseph Smith expanded this idea. It's more a 19th century American belief than a biblical doctrine.
Nick, what is your position on the origins of the Book of Mormon?
You are asking about a work of fiction ? Isn’t there more important things right now? Not trying to be rude, I just don’t get your question with all the horrible events lately
@@China-Clay
How did you come to the conclusion that it’s fiction?
All other issues aside, if you think 23 year old Joseph, raised on a farm, wrote such an internally complex book, in 65 days....then I have a bridge to sell you.
Some people jump when other jump.
@@thekolobsocietyyears and years of study, I honor you wherever you are in your faith journey
Your really opening my eyes
I feel like a lot of his issues with the way he seems to have thought he was supposed to value and view others were a product of interpretation and culture. I have never once heard anything from the pulpit telling the congregation to treat non-members as “less-than” or “unworthy” of our time and efforts because they look “wrong” or behave contrary to the “acceptable” norms. Now, that’s not to say that that sort of mentality does not exist, as it obviously does as told by Nick, and I’ve heard some really awful stories from perceived “outsiders” in religious communities of all sorts, but where in the doctrine and where in the teachings have we ever been told to see anyone as anything less than a fellow child of God??!
That said, it is good to have the issues brought to light so that changes can be made, and I wish the people could be prepared faster to better accept the changes faster.
Also, if you take a more balanced approach to examining the truth claims and church history, it is easier to come out the other side, or even continue down the tunnel, without totally losing everything. Remember your spiritual experiences and your spiritual anchors, remember your personal connection with God, have patience, and remember that hugely fallible humans are all that God has EVER had to work with. Get your information from more than one side, in or out of the church. At least the Saints books at the Joseph Smith Papers and all of the other things now are at least attempting to be transparent about the history and the truth claims. Get information from multiple views, not just one side only, ever, in all facets of life.
Also remember that there is going to be evidence to support a total lack of God, just as much as there will be to support the existence of God. If your new information is all coming from the atheistic perspective, and you didn’t ever try to look outside of your old narrative or the new one, yeah, things are going to look VERY different than how you thought they were from inside the original bubble.
We’re told to seek out information from the best books, we’re told to seek understanding by *study* AND by faith. Use both eyes, and get rid of the blinders, in or out of the church. Expose yourself to opposing views, and find the balance.
46:00 I never try to alienate people based on their political opinion, but at the same time, if anyone is calling for violence against marginalized groups, this is an abomination to the Lord and contrary to the teachings of Christ, and Jesus did not teach me passive non-resistance to evil, but positive responses to disable the evil actions of the doer for their own soul and humanity's sake. I call all misogynists, incels, regressives to repentance and to be reborn of the Spirit and enter into a new life in Christ as a liberated ascending child of the Almighty. If people knew the truth of all things the way Joseph Smith did, they would avoid all neo-Nazi movements.
I finally got time to watch the rest of the video. With regard to what Nick said regarding giving people an option to not be alone, especially for young women to me seems quite obvious. As an Evangelical Christian with pastoral and ministry training, and a man, I would never, ever be alone in a meeting with a young woman ever. I want her to be safe, and I, too, want to be safe. The pastor you referenced Steve, is in my opinion right on. It protects both the pastor (in the CoJCoLDS case, Bishop) and the person speaking with the church leader.
Just a thought Nick, labels do divide, but labels also identify. Without labels things can get very fuzzy. And all people are made in God's image, no matter the label.
The phrase "there are no absolutes" is still illogical since it's an absolute. I know that's something that people may argue with me about, but it's illogical to say there are no absolutes since that's an absolute statement.
Once I learned of the song "Follow the Prophet" I immediately found it disturbing. As an outsider, it just came across weird.
Overall it's an interesting discussion to hear from Nick's perspective. And yes, Nick, lack of vulnerability can be a huge problem. Being real is very, very important.
I'm sure the answer to my question is right before my eyes. I'm a Catholic priest who is fascinated with World Religions, especially the spiritual journeys of individuals. I have taught classes in the past based on this. The Religious Books I usually grow the most from are the journals, diaries, autobiographies of individuals spiritual journals regardless of the religion they belong to along with those who have no religion. I admire your podcasts very much. I wonder though what your spiritual journey is. How is it that an Evangelical hosts a podcast helping others live their faith, especially Mormons? Please point me towards the podcast where you have shared your journey. Thank you very much.
th-cam.com/video/yAZqrUNWvaQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=GBagnkY3GXbh2kT-
@@MormonBookReviews Many, many thanks. I am born and raised in Hawaii. The largest religion would be nothing. The second would be Buddhism, Shintoism Confucianism and other Asian Religions. It is difficult to have an accurate count since many are several at once depending on what stage of life they're at. For example Shinto blessings may be sought at birth since none exist at death, Buddhism would be observed ed at death. Catholicism is the third. Mormonism is the fourth. Catholicism and Mormonism arrived in the Islands around the same time. When Birmingham Young led the Mormon Flock to Utah, a group continued on to Hawaii. Because of the prejudices Hawaiians experienced from the Puritan Congregationalism of the founding missionaries, Catholicism and Mormonism fit better with the beliefs, practices and culture of the Hawaiians.
"Made John Dehlin's podcast" ?? 😢 Pretty sad that Nick considers that an accomplishment.
"I don't need to scream mormonism is false from the rooftops" but yet I'm doing it on Reddit, TikTok, Mormon Stories, wink wink
It is with respect to number of views.
Also, the handbook is a guide. So many senerios to. Bishop have to trust and have faith your in the position to shepherd the ward. We all know your human and not perfect. You just do your best and follow the spirit. It seems that the ex bishop had little confidence in himself. At the end of the day this is all volunteer work. No one expects perfection. I'm the primary president and i know if it's too much...i can go to my bishop and ask for a release. But like everything in life...I get burn out. I have 6 children doing the same thing over and over agian. I get brun out watching my own kid and house work. But i have a good perceive on what I'm doing is whats needed and i will have yo sacrifice my time for tge lords work. It won't be easy but one day it will change. When i feel overwhelme i just do less and take a day or two off and I'm so much better.
Steve, how do we contact you? I can’t find any email or contact form on your website. Thanks!
mormonbookreviews@gmail.com
@@MormonBookReviews Thanks!
Nick you are not the only bishop who does those things. There are 24 K plus bishops all over the world. You are not the only one who gets it.
@48:06 "There are no absolutes..." that sounds like an absolute.
The guest makes some good criticism of church policy, but I'm not hearing any doctrine arguments to justify becoming atheist. Seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater by starting at "church leadership needs to make some real changes in policy to protect the youth and women" and then jumping to the conclusion of atheism is the right path.
Multiple fundamental errors are posited from the guests depiction of church doctrine. I would encourage him to speak with higher authorities in the church with his doctrinal concerns regardless whether he chooses to return or not.
And there are already safeguards in place. He didn't read the handbook.
I am not sure whether church authorities are more versed in church doctrine. When you see the recent discussions about "mixed messages in the church", there is obviously no clear picture about what constitutes doctrine, and in which direction the church is moving.
The problem is the policies exist right in the handbook for all of us to see and he's stating that they are not in the handbook. A bishop is supposed to be familiar with those.
@@BrianTerrill I'm not entirely read up on the handbook to be honest since I haven't really been put in such a position.
I guess a better way to say it is assuming the premise he gives is true, that the problem is with a policy, he chooses to leave Christ altogether and presumably hand over his responsibility to another that will act in a way that he doesn't agree with for all the youth and women in his former ward.
BTW, Nick, I do not call myself an ExMo. I do say I am a former Mormon or XLDS but I prefer to identify by who I am today.
The giggles about alcohol was interesting, maturely? Weird
Nick... I made some super appreciative comments to you and your wife on Mormon Stories, immediately after it was aired. But I am being "Censored" because I made comments regarding the first presidency recommending the shot... That was proof to me that there was no devine prophetic inspiration.
Steven, can you clarify something? I've heard you say that you have a ministry. What does that mean exactly? Being the Switzerland of mormonism is one thing, but it doesn't seem to gel with also being a ministry of some sort. I'm confused.
You have been very open about being friends with John Dehlin. I decided early on that I could never subscribe to your channel because of this. I do watch some of your videos, and I think that you are a great guy. I just feel really uneasy with this particular video. It seems like you might want to become the next "Mormon stories" when John Dehlin retires. Please say it isn't so 😢
I've had on freinds and critics of the church here on MBR since the very beginning of this channel. Mormon Book Reviews intends not to be the "next anything". We have carved out a unique identity and will continue to be about the only independent, neutral platform in this space.
Sorry but you stepped down you didn't have to go public with this there is other ways to get this resolved, boowoo! Just get on with your life, you are looking for justification of your decision. It's nobody's business. Get on with your life.
MBR is really showing his intent..... he's a wolf.... I'm done watching his content. He really exposed himself in this one by his obvious biased reactions
I imagine he's about to lose a lot of his lds audience and about to really boom in the exmo community....props for the brilliant marketing strategy but I'm out.
Shut up and get on with your life too. Take your own advice.
@@curtisdecker3175It is interesting to see how sensitive members are to criticism. If you cannot face criticism,why did you come to this earth at all? You should have stayed in the cosy preexistence.
@@charlesmendeley9823 its not criticism that i care about. I'm a mormon in Arkansas. You think i don't hear it daily?
It's the pretend friendship that is being used. Pretending that the church saved his life as he uses his life to reconstruct and deconstruct others...... call it sensitive all you want but i call it grossly deceptive.
I'm the only mormon in my family btw..... but i have my testimony about the gospel saving my life.. mentally and actually physically when i was in a car accident dec 4th 2022....i knew the church was true before that morning but after the wreck, i learned of things that can't be explained that testified to me that nobody can convince me otherwise..... but again...i see someone dressing up and brandishing byu apparel while trying to reconstruct us... and i have an issue with that.
It is already church policy to have another person in the room when interviewing young women or even young men. It has been for a few years. I agree that better training is needed for Bishops.
This has been a policy for years, it was when I was Bishop years ago.
This is an over blown issue, because if it happens it is not proper practice. It seems to me it is being used as a weapon by disillusioned members as an excuse
To criticize the church.
The vast majority of Bishop’s follow the hand book and training.
The parts of Mormon Stories I watched of this guy make me really skeptical of this guy. I am glad you want to have all voices of the restoration here, but the same things he said are old recycled garbage that many ex-mos spill out typically. It always comes down to a lack of understanding doctrinal nuance and metaphor and lack of desire to study by faith.
Your "old recycled garbage" is instead "shared similar beliefs and experiences" to others. The fact that many feel the same way means that the issues that people experienced in the church are widespread, rather than "Hey I heard this ex-mo talk and I think I'll just say the same thing." I left before I found ex-mo reddit and before finding YT podcasts and I had little contact with ex-mos and yet, everything they say I can say, because the experiences are the same. Be introspective about the church and see that shared experiences are a red flag.
@@elijahhawaii no, it is LACK OF UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWING THE MIND OF GOD. It is that simple.
I feel the same when I hear formulaic stories and arguements whether from exmormon, excatholic, exmuslim, exjew etc I engage with a lot of different communities and am instantly turned off by insincerity when I see it because it's glaring to me
@@elijahhawaii that's because exmos were exmos before podcast and the internet. The Tanners were publishing things a long time before podcast existed. It's just back then, people had to read.
@@BrianTerrill I hate reading. I never read any of that either. I am still sitting here watching podcasts practically predicting the words because of the shared experiences. So.......
"Bishop Roulette" is a very demeaning term. These are good men who are trying their best. For a supposed middle of the road podcast, using terms like this shows your true colors. Hard to have a decent conversation when resorting to name calling.
Thanks for giving me your feedback. We always try to be fair here at MBR. I agree that a very vast majority of Latter-day Saint Bishops are good men!
The topic of masturbation as a "sexual sin" extends beyond religious institutions, as secular resources also support this viewpoint. These resources emphasize the addictive nature of masturbation and the potential negative consequences it can have. Similarly, when it comes to substances like coffee and alcohol, there is a wealth of information available regarding their effects. Ultimately, the decision of whether to engage in these activities lies with each individual. But not the consequences.
Sorry that this bishop did not know about therapy service within the church.
Being a bishop is a great responsibility and requires self care first. This bishop did his best, but it doesn’t mean that he knows the best.
Thanks Steve for your willingness to bring more light.
God and Christ are the ultimate light.
I don’t understand why Nick felt like he could not have gotten a tattoo and drink beer when he was a member.
Nick is really milking it, isn't he. Hope he enjoys his 15 minutes.
Did you bother looking at the video or do you not care for his reasons for resigning?
I found his interview worthwhile listening to. So I do not share your slander.
Glad he is speaking out! Sounds like you’re still a believer.
Mormonism started because Joseph Smith was “milking it” until it killed him.
Gosh, how nasty, he is just being resl. This programme is a great resource for those leaving the LDS religion.
I knew a guy that was lds , he wanted to be happy and left the church , he began having new girlfriends, he catch a sexual transmitted disease, see the lord established his church and commandments for a reason , this bishop is so weak , I’m glad he is out , we don’t need him , we need bishops that are strong , brave and valiant, I was bishop once , and let me tell you it was so hard , but it was so worth it , I save marriages and souls onto Christ, and I’m still serving, I’m glad he is out , even though deep inside me , and thinking as a Lds Christian type ,I feel compassion for him and his family
Incredible episode. We of #SecondMileChristianity recognize Nick as a powerful example of true Christ-like masculinity and invite the lost confused men of the younger generation to turn from the false MRA ideology and listen to all podcasts that feature this guy. Amen.
His wife couldn’t order a pizza. 😂
WTF that is the weirdest thing I’ve heard.
So Summer is encouraging violence? Choke holds are needed? What a great cohost. 😢
Well, since Elder Holland gave the famous "musket fire talk" at BYU, he probably meant that literally as well. So I assume you vote oppose during general conference?
It was obviously a facetious remark. She didn’t mean that literally.
They train you how to do tithing. Well, we know where there heart is.
And with Ensign Peak Advisors, they invest the surplus tithing in the US stock market, including Amazon, Google, Microsoft. And these make revenue from porn, including gay porn. Thus, the LDS Church is directly profiting from gay porn.
You would hope any church would train those who are supposed to handle tithes or donations properly.
Who cares? Get on with your life.
Why are you here then?
Lots of whining. Move on.
Many people left the church before Joseph Smith was killed because he had adulterous relationships, committed bank fraud, and other misconduct.
People leave today because the church is still very poorly led. Nick did an honorable thing leaving and telling his story.
This will be the last time I listen to Mormon Book Reviews.
All the voices of the Restoration will be heard on MBR
@@MormonBookReviewsif they apostitize, are they really a voice of the *restoration*? I would say no. They are certainly the voice of something, but not the restoration. Maybe the voice of deconstruction?
@@DesertPrimrose I've had people who have left the church or have been excommunicated on MBR since the beginning of the channel. They are always going to be part of the conversation.
@@DesertPrimrosethis guy is disgusting... going around like a wolf in sheeps clothing. He's disgusting. Clearly a liar who is profiteering. I thought he was a good guy honestly, i thought he was actually trying to be fair, walking around wearing byu apparel and then targeting mormons individually..... like really, the world is full of atheists, loaded with non believers.... and he focuses his efforts on those of lds faith
Jesus did not ask his apostles to preach to the Samaritans because he had a strong liking and respect for them, he knew that in the end, they were good people.
This guy is really showing who he is lately he's turning into john dehlin and jeff durbin.
I've had on critics, people who left or were excommunicated from the church since the very beginning of this channel. We talk to everyone on MBR. John Dehlin is a friend, I've always been open about that. Jeff Durbin is someone I've been openly critical of for years.
Pretty pathetic really.
Your dad was pretty pathetic, yet here you are.
Lol, look in the mirror.
@@charlesmendeley9823 there is that insightful insights we've come to expect from you. So stunning, so brave.