I spent the irish circuit week with this lady and her dogs and being someone who has had a clumber before I am very interested and crititical of the breed, however this ladies dogs were outstanding, no over exaggerations and superb body and movement and a total pleasure to be in the company of. I gather they work the dogs too and saw them spending hours walking them to keep them exercised and in top condition. I think the lights, temp & darn saw dust would have affected everydog there!
Hurray for the vets! We need a better system but this is a massive step forward from having no system. All dogs should have vets' checks before they are entered.
@polarmistBISS When the rims roll in on the is called entropion. This dog has ectropion, the rim is rolled out Both are health problems usually caused by breeding for certain facial characteristics
@bonefinderdog No I dont think people would show up with a dog with ENTROPION since that condition gives such obvius pain and inflammation. But ectropion has become accepted in many breeds
I saw a video about an hour ago it had a length of more than 14 minutes - and now I start again and the video is 9 minutes shorter!!! There is something wrong!!!! Why is now less??
@griffon49 You can see her eye UP CLOSE on the interview...... it is a normal clumber eye. SOme haw is supposed to show, and most clumbers always have a bit of red on that haw that protects the eye.
This is extremeley good news and a brave (if well overdue) move by the Crufts management. Dog's with visible problems, in this case bilateral ectropion, i.e. the turning out of the eyelid, usually the lower eyelid so the inner surface is exposed, should NEVER be allowed to show, let alone breed. Dogs, regardless of breed, should be bred for health and not for looks. Hopefully this will bring about a sea change in dog shows; for the last 40 yrs dog shows have been a vanity fair of genetic freaks.
The vet did not say the dog had Ectropion, the reporter asked if it was suggested, the vet only said the dog had conjunctivitis, so your arguing a mute point and just starting a rumor
@dtrueblood1 The vets testimonial is easy to find on the net. The ectropion is not hard for a professional to se on the movie and on photos on the net.
@peter51lundin so assuming this dog has its health checks are you saying that a specialist is unable to detect entropion? I would think a judge could see that to be honest..
@a7neu it seems my desire to link directly to the image is just not going to be realized lol So I'll just say if you want to see the vet certificate (or purported vet certificate, if you want), it is available on the terrierman blog, the retrieverman blog, dogworld .co.uk (the best image), borderwars blog, or you can just do a google search for it, as I'm sure there are more sources.
@cdbrand1 I can support the kennel club in having health exams for all dogs BEFORE judging, not after... or even better, requiring that dogs are certified by vets before entry.
@fridstail I agree that it would hav been better with two vets, but this is at clear cut case, the dog obviusly har ectropion, and the instructions ar like this: Clumber Spaniel: Conditions of eye and ear are a major focus for the breed and obesity can affect health and welfare. o Ectropion and entropion, are considered to be conformational defects that are disqualifying signs
If this dog did in fact have a genetic disease I feel that it is the breeders responsibility to prove otherwise. This is the undertaking that breeders have agreed to when they started showing and breeding. I hear so many times they would like to better the breed. What really does that mean when it comes to genetic disease. Bettering the breed should be to create a stronger dog that is better at what it was originaly bred to do. NOT to make it prettier.
@peter51lundin you people crack me up. the show vet did not say the dog had ectropion, the reporter asked if it was suggested, NO !! the show vet only diagnosed the dog with conjunctivitis
I think that in order for this vet check to work you need vets that are KNOWLEDGEABLE about the breeds they are examining! While I applaud that Crufts is doing something to promote a healthier dog I think you need to train the Vets to the intricacies of each of the breeds they are examining. These are not your average run of the mill unselectively breed dog. Let the litigations begin...
It seems the dog FAILED DUE TO BILATERAL ECTROPION, in addition to the conjunctivitis. Here is the vet certificate: astraean .com/borderwars/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/clumber_spaniel_failed_vet_check_certificate.jpg There is a better image of the whole certificate in the dogworld .co.uk article titled "Mastiff latest high-profile breed to fail" but I cannot link to it.
@peter51lundin so if it were in writing, why would anyone think to go to Crufts with a dog that actually exhibited this condition. It's just not logical. Obviously I have never, nor likely am ever to see this dog myself, but I do feel it is unfair to single out different breeds. Either all get vet checked or none do. sorry about the misspelling of ectropian ...
@shibaweb It is an ectropion and it is easily seen by anyone with a bit of knowledge. Of course the judge has seen this, the problem is that breeders and judges has come to accept this as normal in several breeds. PL
@polarmistBISS ectropian is where there is too much haw - entropion is the opposite, have a look at this dog in the video, it appears to have overly hawed lower lids, and also it appears to have redness and even an inflammation of the skin for a half inch surrounding the eyes - I would never want any of my dogs (or me) to have that
@ShibasRGreat How can you compare to Mutts. Breeders of purebreds are to be responsible for their dogs no matter what. Mutts are often of the offspring of people unable to contain their family pet who have no care for often the wellbeing of their dog in heat or they would have spayed her in the first place. Serious show owners must be responsible for the health of their dog as well as the breed. If the vet suggested Entropia prove otherwise because it is a genetic disease and should be stopped
@shibaweb I guess they didnt read it and those who did just couldnt think that KC really would go through with this. In some breeds ectropion is more the rule than the exeption. Entropion i one thing and ectropion another, two sides of the same coin. PL DVM1980
@discusdiscus1 If it is clear to you that this dog ectropion. then you must be brilliant, there is no way of seeing that unless there is a big red sore spot, this dog has no pronounced red spot. Your seeing the Haw, Also the show vet did not say the dog had ectropion so you must be seeing something the show vet did not see. The reporter asked if he mentioned that, the vet only said the dog had conjunctivitis. that's a long way away from ectropion
If this beautiful girl fails, NONE Will pass!!! NONE. Her eyes are not red, she doesnt show a gap between lower lid and eye or a ton of haw. SHE IS A BEAUTIFUL GIRL. All very sad!!!!
Does anybody really think that a dog, of this caliber, would show up at ANY world dog show with entropion? Seriously. Time to flush Crufts down the toilet.
Dogs with a prominent, visible third eyelid (nictitating membrane) are said to have Haw Eyes. Haw eyes are seen in such breeds as the St. Bernard and Bloodhound. It is not a disqualification in spaniels. Some spaniels are suppose to have a tight eye but even those are not disqualified if some Haw is showing. Crufts is a joke this is a terrible thing to happen to these show enthusiast.
@Ladyblue802 Conjunctivitis, a minor eye infection, can be brought on by dirt, pollen any kind of irritation to the eye. She does not appear to be ectropion,where the eye rims roll in on the eye, the eye rims on this breed are a bit saggy, which is quite the opposite of eye rims rolling inwards? Why just one vet, should there not be two or three opinions? I am in favor of dogs bred for exaggerated characteristics that are detrimental to the dogs health and well being be penalized, not this.
There shouldn't be only one vet certificate. they should ask for several vets and if all vets says the same it means that dog is unhealthy, but not just one vet! 100% for breeder if you know your dog is healthy you should fight for your title. Don't give up!!!
Conjunctivitis can be caused by a bacterial or viral infection, not necessarily due to a fault. It can be contagious. The dog may have been fine in the past, but could have picked it up during the pre-judging. Dogs should be vetted PRIOR to the competition for signs of contagious diseases and dismissed then so they don't expose all the other dogs at the competition. They are wrong to blame the vet. All those people petting that dog could end up with pinkeye.
It is acceptable if there is a genuiene problem, seems that many things have been mentioned, none of them correct. If a dog has the suggested fault it would not be able to open it's eyes, the condition is ingrowing eyelashes, and the eyes run with tears and are sore and red. Some dogs are operated on to correct the fault.
Please know that we are 100% at the side of the Breeder and Owner of this beautiful dog. The shame indeed is on the Kennel Club and on Cruft's to let these thing happen. This is the worst for the moment ... Quo Vadis ... afraid for the future when dog shows will become forbidden and dog breeders seen as criminals.
i WILL say this though. this bitch is not in poor health. if she has had all her basic health checks too then i see not real issue to prevent her competing. i think there are ALOT of other breeds & dogs that are alot more likely to need these inspections. im not a bitchy person like some people. so i like to give both sides of my point across the good & the bad. from what i see she looks like a healthy enough dog. since i dont KNOW her personally one cant say for SURE what the full story is.
When are the KC people going to stand up on their hind legs and tell the AR whacko's to piss off. There was obviously nothing wrong with this dog. The goal of the AR whacko's is to stop shows like Crufts and all other shows and the use of animals. Wake Up KC! Start driving the bus.
This is a real shame. The dog has already passed every possible health check available. I hate to see the veterinarians for Crufts bowing to the extremist animal rightists, who care NOTHING for animals and would eliminate their jobs.
What is terribly sad is the KC is giving in to AR's. truly this will not be the end if they do not stand UP for the breeds instead of Giving in to AR's BTW Skywaker, YOU run around in 100 degrees and dirt flying up in your face for over 45 minutes and lets see if your eyes are not red. And you sure do not have a clue if you think this dog has Ectropia. Also when was the last time any Mutt owner did hip or eye exams? or any other health test? I bet never.Breeders do however.
I spent the irish circuit week with this lady and her dogs and being someone who has had a clumber before I am very interested and crititical of the breed, however this ladies dogs were outstanding, no over exaggerations and superb body and movement and a total pleasure to be in the company of. I gather they work the dogs too and saw them spending hours walking them to keep them exercised and in top condition. I think the lights, temp & darn saw dust would have affected everydog there!
Great job by the vets at Crufts who dare to make tough decisions. Thumbs up, vets!
@TafkaOD
Could be that its is hard to find a clumber with correct eyelid conformation.
PL
Hurray for the vets! We need a better system but this is a massive step forward from having no system. All dogs should have vets' checks before they are entered.
@Ladyblue802 and is the surrounding eye supposed to be inflamed and appear swollen and with caked on debris?
@polarmistBISS
When the rims roll in on the is called entropion.
This dog has ectropion, the rim is rolled out
Both are health problems usually caused by breeding for certain facial characteristics
@bonefinderdog
No I dont think people would show up with a dog with ENTROPION since that condition gives such obvius pain and inflammation. But ectropion has become accepted in many breeds
I saw a video about an hour ago it had a length of more than 14 minutes - and now I start again and the video is 9 minutes shorter!!!
There is something wrong!!!!
Why is now less??
@TafkaOD
Possible in some breeds , other breeds already have too small breeding population so if you stamp out some issues others will pop up.
PL
PL
@griffon49 You can see her eye UP CLOSE on the interview...... it is a normal clumber eye. SOme haw is supposed to show, and most clumbers always have a bit of red on that haw that protects the eye.
This is extremeley good news and a brave (if well overdue) move by the Crufts management. Dog's with visible problems, in this case bilateral ectropion, i.e. the turning out of the eyelid, usually the lower eyelid so the inner surface is exposed, should NEVER be allowed to show, let alone breed. Dogs, regardless of breed, should be bred for health and not for looks. Hopefully this will bring about a sea change in dog shows; for the last 40 yrs dog shows have been a vanity fair of genetic freaks.
The vet did not say the dog had Ectropion, the reporter asked if it was suggested, the vet only said the dog had conjunctivitis, so your arguing a mute point and just starting a rumor
@polarmistBISS ectropian is where the eye rims roll out, entropian is where they roll in.
@dtrueblood1
The vets testimonial is easy to find on the net.
The ectropion is not hard for a professional to se on the movie and on photos on the net.
@Jojkowa have you watched the video clip?
@peter51lundin so assuming this dog has its health checks are you saying that a specialist is unable to detect entropion? I would think a judge could see that to be honest..
@a7neu it seems my desire to link directly to the image is just not going to be realized lol
So I'll just say if you want to see the vet certificate (or purported vet certificate, if you want), it is available on the terrierman blog, the retrieverman blog, dogworld .co.uk (the best image), borderwars blog, or you can just do a google search for it, as I'm sure there are more sources.
@kycanine
I suppose you have not tried to dig out teaspoonfulls of seeds from the eyes of hunting dogs.
PL
@kamsibhus Are you qualified to make the diagnosis?
PL
@jaiphuwongsamillmoor
So ectropion is perfectly acceptable in your opinion?
@cdbrand1 I can support the kennel club in having health exams for all dogs BEFORE judging, not after... or even better, requiring that dogs are certified by vets before entry.
@fridstail
I agree that it would hav been better with two vets, but this is at clear cut case, the dog obviusly har ectropion, and the instructions ar like this:
Clumber Spaniel: Conditions of eye and ear are a major focus for the breed and obesity
can affect health and welfare.
o Ectropion and entropion, are considered to be conformational defects that are
disqualifying signs
@bonefinderdog It was Ectropion not Entropion two different conditions
@oldhatter45 possibly they will do that when the AR people don't have any legs to stand on, but at the moment, show people keep giving amunition
@a7neu there it is then?
@TafkaOD yes, it is a good start - and we can only improve from here with the best that science can help us breeders with...
If this dog did in fact have a genetic disease I feel that it is the breeders responsibility to prove otherwise. This is the undertaking that breeders have agreed to when they started showing and breeding. I hear so many times they would like to better the breed. What really does that mean when it comes to genetic disease. Bettering the breed should be to create a stronger dog that is better at what it was originaly bred to do. NOT to make it prettier.
@kamsibhus
Why? He made his job and made the correct diuagnosis!
PL
@peter51lundin you people crack me up. the show vet did not say the dog had ectropion, the reporter asked if it was suggested, NO !! the show vet only diagnosed the dog with conjunctivitis
@bonefinderdog
Not entropoin! Ectropion!
Shows in the movie and clearly on photos.
PL
@wrinkly let's hope numbers that can pass the vet checks will rise and numbers that can't pass a simple vet check will stay home
@bonefinderdog
I did write ectropion! (but managed to get entropion wrong)
I think that in order for this vet check to work you need vets that are KNOWLEDGEABLE about the breeds they are examining! While I applaud that Crufts is doing something to promote a healthier dog I think you need to train the Vets to the intricacies of each of the breeds they are examining. These are not your average run of the mill unselectively breed dog.
Let the litigations begin...
It seems the dog FAILED DUE TO BILATERAL ECTROPION, in addition to the conjunctivitis.
Here is the vet certificate:
astraean .com/borderwars/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/clumber_spaniel_failed_vet_check_certificate.jpg
There is a better image of the whole certificate in the dogworld .co.uk article titled "Mastiff latest high-profile breed to fail" but I cannot link to it.
@peter51lundin
The owner says she dont understand this which is natural since she doesnt know the difference between entropion and ectropion.
PL
@nanarinauk You confuse ectropion with entropion!
Well it one way to flush out the competition.
@nanarinauk
Once again, the dog was DQed for ECTROPION!
PL
@peter51lundin so if it were in writing, why would anyone think to go to Crufts with a dog that actually exhibited this condition. It's just not logical. Obviously I have never, nor likely am ever to see this dog myself, but I do feel it is unfair to single out different breeds. Either all get vet checked or none do. sorry about the misspelling of ectropian ...
@TafkaOD well said
Beautiful Clumber !
@shibaweb
It is an ectropion and it is easily seen by anyone with a bit of knowledge.
Of course the judge has seen this, the problem is that breeders and judges has come to accept this as normal in several breeds.
PL
@shibaweb
OK, I dont quite like the way this was done either but it was in writing before the show, no secret.
PL
@griffon49 perhaps not a good idea to exhibit it at a dog show if the poor animal is suffering from this kind of thing
Well said @ppethaven
This is class.
@shibaweb
It doesnt require an eye specialist to se an ectropion,
It requires a vet prepared to make an honest stand.
PL
@Skywalker91 and do you know for a fact that this dog was treated cruely?
@dtrueblood1
Crufts just happens to be the first!
This isnt crufts decision its KC.
PL
@TheMogjo I disagree, I see ectropian, and inflammation in the video as shown
@azbelltas Don't blame all British people for this.
good speec
@bonefinderdog - ectropian - and just have a look at the video
Why should a dog have runny eyes and tear stains... think about it.
Can't see the wood for the trees.....................
@polarmistBISS ectropian is where there is too much haw - entropion is the opposite, have a look at this dog in the video, it appears to have overly hawed lower lids, and also it appears to have redness and even an inflammation of the skin for a half inch surrounding the eyes - I would never want any of my dogs (or me) to have that
@ShibasRGreat How can you compare to Mutts. Breeders of purebreds are to be responsible for their dogs no matter what. Mutts are often of the offspring of people unable to contain their family pet who have no care for often the wellbeing of their dog in heat or they would have spayed her in the first place. Serious show owners must be responsible for the health of their dog as well as the breed. If the vet suggested Entropia prove otherwise because it is a genetic disease and should be stopped
This is a bloody shame!! What a disgrace!!
There just trying to disqualify a dog from each group to prove a point that dog looks perfectly healthy
@granadan1 very funny, but not really applicable, I'd feel sorry for a giraffe with runny red eyes ..
@shibaweb
I guess they didnt read it and those who did just couldnt think that KC really would go through with this. In some breeds ectropion is more the rule than the exeption.
Entropion i one thing and ectropion another, two sides of the same coin.
PL DVM1980
CCTV footage on my page.
i think you are generalizing. i don't think is most of the dogs maybe some but i wouldn't say most.
@DizzyWater - Then they should disqualify the entire breed, not just one of them.....and also all the other breeds with runny eyes no?
i wishd id had some day clumber spaniel
i wishd id had 8 clumberspaniels own with my wife
@discusdiscus1 If it is clear to you that this dog ectropion. then you must be brilliant, there is no way of seeing that unless there is a big red sore spot, this dog has no pronounced red spot. Your seeing the Haw, Also the show vet did not say the dog had ectropion so you must be seeing something the show vet did not see. The reporter asked if he mentioned that, the vet only said the dog had conjunctivitis. that's a long way away from ectropion
TOLLANEN OIS UPEETA OMISTAA.....
the dog was ditched because she has ectropion. good on the vet.
@jaiphuwongsamillmoor
Maybe the deathwarrant of dog shows putting a premium on dogs with unhealthy conformations. But its still a long way to go.
If this beautiful girl fails, NONE Will pass!!! NONE. Her eyes are not red, she doesnt show a gap between lower lid and eye or a ton of haw. SHE IS A BEAUTIFUL GIRL. All very sad!!!!
another wrong decision , Crufts organizers are making a mockery of a fabulous event
@RobloxRoxLikeWaffles
I dont doubt that but its hardly an excuse to accept unhealthy eyelid conformation.
PL
Beg pardon.
Lets hope this vet never assesses a giraffe... It would be DQ'd for having too long a neck.
@Ladyblue802 and again, it would be ectropian, and last time I was at Crufts I did not come across any tall grass
Does anybody really think that a dog, of this caliber, would show up at ANY world dog show with entropion? Seriously. Time to flush Crufts down the toilet.
Dogs with a prominent, visible third eyelid (nictitating membrane) are said to have Haw Eyes. Haw eyes are seen in such breeds as the St. Bernard and Bloodhound. It is not a disqualification in spaniels. Some spaniels are suppose to have a tight eye but even those are not disqualified if some Haw is showing. Crufts is a joke this is a terrible thing to happen to these show enthusiast.
@Ladyblue802
Conjunctivitis, a minor eye infection, can be brought on by dirt, pollen any kind of irritation to the eye. She does not appear to be ectropion,where the eye rims roll in on the eye, the eye rims on this breed are a bit saggy, which is quite the opposite of eye rims rolling inwards? Why just one vet, should there not be two or three opinions?
I am in favor of dogs bred for exaggerated characteristics that are detrimental to the dogs health and well being be penalized, not this.
@peter51lundin
touchee......
:not ectropoin Peter.......ectropion.
There shouldn't be only one vet certificate. they should ask for several vets and if all vets says the same it means that dog is unhealthy, but not just one vet!
100% for breeder if you know your dog is healthy you should fight for your title. Don't give up!!!
Conjunctivitis can be caused by a bacterial or viral infection, not necessarily due to a fault. It can be contagious. The dog may have been fine in the past, but could have picked it up during the pre-judging. Dogs should be vetted PRIOR to the competition for signs of contagious diseases and dismissed then so they don't expose all the other dogs at the competition. They are wrong to blame the vet. All those people petting that dog could end up with pinkeye.
What happened today was just terrible and utterly unjustifiable. The unthinkable became reality!
Good on the do gooders and right wing nutters! with the press for stuffing up what was once the worlds greatest dog show!
It is acceptable if there is a genuiene problem, seems that many things have been mentioned,
none of them correct. If a dog has the suggested fault it would not be able to open it's eyes, the condition is ingrowing eyelashes, and the eyes run with tears and are sore and red.
Some dogs are operated on to correct the fault.
dat chin
Please know that we are 100% at the side of the Breeder and Owner of this beautiful dog. The shame indeed is on the Kennel Club and on Cruft's to let these thing happen. This is the worst for the moment ... Quo Vadis ... afraid for the future when dog shows will become forbidden and dog breeders seen as criminals.
Are the British aware of what they do? I think that this is the start of their big show ending.... This is totally insane!
i WILL say this though. this bitch is not in poor health. if she has had all her basic health checks too then i see not real issue to prevent her competing. i think there are ALOT of other breeds & dogs that are alot more likely to need these inspections. im not a bitchy person like some people. so i like to give both sides of my point across the good & the bad. from what i see she looks like a healthy enough dog. since i dont KNOW her personally one cant say for SURE what the full story is.
pretty unbelievable. really sorry for the owner.
When are the KC people going to stand up on their hind legs and tell the AR whacko's to piss off. There was obviously nothing wrong with this dog. The goal of the AR whacko's is to stop shows like Crufts and all other shows and the use of animals. Wake Up KC! Start driving the bus.
This is a real shame. The dog has already passed every possible health check available. I hate to see the veterinarians for Crufts bowing to the extremist animal rightists, who care NOTHING for animals and would eliminate their jobs.
What is terribly sad is the KC is giving in to AR's. truly this will not be the end if they do not stand UP for the breeds instead of Giving in to AR's BTW Skywaker, YOU run around in 100 degrees and dirt flying up in your face for over 45 minutes and lets see if your eyes are not red. And you sure do not have a clue if you think this dog has Ectropia.
Also when was the last time any Mutt owner did hip or eye exams? or any other health test? I bet never.Breeders do however.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!