I just finished the game! Overall, no surprise, I had a great time. I think it took 15 or 16 hours. (I also wanted to comment on how great this video is. Great unbiased thoughts. Well placed humor. Great editing. Wonderful voice.) Nothing new there though ;) Going into the game I did hear remnants of how people were reacting to spoilers, but it never really impacted me much. Obviously, people on the internet tend to overreact. So much so that I had to ask which part they overreacted to. I didn’t realize I had even played it. Some of the pacing, as you mentioned, was off-putting. Though, it wasn't nearly to any point where it was unenjoyable. I just have trouble when stories take a step back to go back in time and show more pieces to the puzzle. If it’s told well, it works. I think in this case it does. It’s good, but not great. The story reaches this huge climax where Ellie and Abby finally meet. Then it just slows down taking almost 5-10 hours of play through to reach that point again. During those 5-10 hours I think what carried me through the most was introducing Lev and Yara, expanding on the WLF and Seraphite world building, and some of the cool game sequences. Like walking along the cranes from building to building. I like Abby’s story, but like you said if they told the story with a continuing timeline jumping from Abby to Ellie I think it would have worked much better. I don’t think you play as Abby to feel bad for her. I think there’s also a hint of Abby being a bad person, excluding her killing of Joel, in the same realm of Joel. During the early part of the Abby side of the playthrough - Manny, Mel, and Abby are talking about how there used to be a truce with the Seraphites and WLF until some kids were shot. When Mel defends the children Abby claims she's okay with them being shot. When Abby takes in Lev and Yara there’s quite a bit of questioning for why she helps them. Mel claims Abby is helping them to reconcile for something she straight up calls Abby shitty. When Yara and Lev ask why Abby is helping them Abby responds with something like, “I have too.” I wouldn’t be surprised if we learn that Abby was in the WLF party that shot the Seraphite kids. Maybe Issac wanted a war and had Abby do his dirty work during an extra assignment. Though I guess that’s just speculation, so it’s neither here nor there. I do like the idea of thinking twice before killing the enemy. Killing zombos, I’ll do that all day. I found myself not killing people most of the time. The game humanizing each group of people by Abby’s perspective with the WLF and Lev’s perspective with Seraphites, people screaming their friends' names when they die, and seeing characters you killed as Ellie show up in Abby’s retelling of the story led me to thinking twice. In the Last of Us 1 you seem influenced by how Joel might think at the time. Just killing everyone, no questions. In this game I think the player is influenced by how Ellie might think. Feeling sorry for killing people. Who knows. I also just liked being to be like, forget these people and this segment, and just sprint past everyone lol. The gameplay itself was alright for the most part. It’s naughty dog. What I didn’t like was running and jumping gaps, which was absolute shit for me most of the time. Also, silent takedowns were so repetitive. Strangle people and they gargle x1000. The only way it was different was that Ellie or Abby would say something different when they did it. It was so repetitive that I just stopped doing it. Some of the puzzles were fun, like when you have to jam the dumpster under the garage door before it closed. That was kind of cool. My favorite mission for the gaming experience was either the crane bridge mission or storming the Seraphite island. My favorite missions for story telling were the ones with little combat or the ones that just went back in time. My least favorite was when Ellie first got to Seattle. Opening gates and aimlessly riding a horse around was kind of boring. It seemed like a traveling portion of the game they could have skipped. The ending’s meaning and story point I like. I didn’t want Abby to die. When Ellie was holding Abby under water I found myself saying, “Don’t do it!” The only thing I didn’t like about the ending was the setting and this random new group in Santa Barbra. I just felt no connection to it. It was just a strange setting for the ending to take place. These are just my initial thoughts =)
@@kimberly8040 definitely >20h ..my first playthrough was 33h 44m ..my second was around 31h ..my third was around 25h... anyway... this video was rather refreshing
Idk about you guys but it really hit me how much of an effect Ellie’s initial anger had on Tommy. Her determination almost forced his hand, when leaving. He wanted revenge I’m sure, but his efforts felt more to protect Ellie, at first. But the back story to Joel and the mark his teachings left on Tommy really started to show. And when he was angry at Ellie for giving up, it broke my heart. He was always the one trying to do the right thing and to see him caught in the very same cycle, reliving some of the shit he and Joel has to go through.. shit fucked me up man.
Crazy thing is....I truly believe Ellie did have a happy ending, we just missed the clues... another TH-camr commented on the letter you find at the farm when you are with Dina and the baby. It's from the baby's father's mom saying they will always have a place in Jackson if they choose to come back home. And, if you notice.....when Ellie leaves to fight Abby at the end....she's not wearing the bracelet Dina gave her....but when she returns...the camera zooms in on her hand ...we were focused on the fingers missing but looked completey passed the fact that now she is wearing the bracelet, possibly meaning she has already been to Jackson...and is living with Dina......she just went back to the farm for the guitar....but decided to leave it. That represents her finally being able to accept Joel's death and end the cycle of revenge. Here's some more things to back this claim...... 1. When she comes back to the farm...she's not hurt or not wearing any of her weapons. 2. She doesn't seem surprised that everyone is gone when she enters the house. She doesn't call out Dina's name or anything. I think people were so caught up in "Revenge" that they missed all of these details. I wish I could remember the TH-camrs name who pointed the letter and the bracelet out but sadly I don't remember... he/she is the real hero.....I just added more context and details to back their theory.
never thought bout that..what i expected was Ellie was shock to see the house was empty and she found a letter from Dina but she looks calm..now it makes sense
I like this one a lot. I thought that when Ellie went back to the farm, Ellie realized she shouldn’t have left. Ellie to me was overwhelmed with emotions that she became stale like a dry carrot. Then in the end Ellie heads off to a new journey that could be part 3
Imagine getting to the end of a video game or a scene and thinking, “I’m going to send a death threat to the voice actor and creators of this fictional game” Yikes. Talk about pathetic.
The people going out of their way to harass the cast and devs, did not play the game. I had a back and forth with a bloke on twitter, and he said the story was dumb and the sjw angle was forced. I asked for his PSN name to verify that he did play and finish the game, but apparently watching a stream is the same as playing the game to him.
She didn't really lose everything that was Abby. She is wearing Dina's bracelet implying she has already been back to Jackson to talk to Dina. She has Tommy Dona Maria and the baby. Abby just has Lev.
I think it was a big missed opportunity that Lev didn’t beg for Abby’s life at the end paralleling Ellie begging for Joel’s life at the start. It would’ve made Ellie sparing Abby a bit more understandable because Ellie would have seen that she was essentially Abby at that moment since she had gone all the way to Santa Barbara for revenge just as Abby had gone to Jackson for hers and that she was about to kill someone’s loved one.
Actually, while fighting against Abby, you can hear Lev trying to call for her (though extremely subtle) but how he is barely conscious he can't do anything about it.
Wow, that would have fixed the ending for me, honestly. I loved most of the game and didn't agree with most of the criticism it's been getting, but the resolution to the final fight felt a bit... rushed? It just didn't make much sense to me that she would change her mind so much LITERALLY at the last second. Showing that parallel between Lev and Ellie would have pushed the idea of the unending cycle of revenge foward, with Ellie deciding to break it. Another option would be for her to flash through images of everything this quest has lost her: Jesse, Tommy, Dina, JJ. All that to show the player that Ellie realizes that this revenge that she's lost so much for wasn't worth it
@@tigerguy529 I don't think it was a choice that came outwhere. After Ellie came from Seattle and started to live on the farm. Revenge itself wasn't only thing that was driving her to find Abby but more than that it was a sense of closure. She started to see the futility of revenge after she killed Mel.
@@ash9280 I don't think that's represented very well in the story. Sure, she's distraught when she finds out Mel was pregnant, but nothing in the game shows her thinking about that again, or motivating her in any way
The way I see it, no one wanted to play a sequel, they wanted to play the first one again...thats exactly how it would have felt with Joel and Ellie together on a mission again.
@@MadSkillz76 People are used to the characters that they play being immortal. The way that this game managed to allow the mortality of so many characters that you play, starting with the main character of part 1, is a new and unsettling experience. I remember during the buildup of Abby's character leading up to the scene where they will meet and fight, I was hoping that I would be controlling Ellie and dreading the idea that I would be controlling Abby. I've never seen this done in a game before. In the last fight, when I finally am controlling Ellie, I no longer wanted her to kill Abby but I thought she was going to.
@@MadSkillz76 That would have been cringy and boring TBH. This world that naughty dog created is really fascinating and I want to see them continue to branch out. I'd honestly like to see all new characters with new perspectives for a third game.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. Her act of mercy saves her. If she kills Ellie in Jackson, she'll likely either die in the WLF attack on the Island or give in and go to Santa Barbra with Owen where they'll die. If she kills her in Seattle....well yeah she's 100% dead. Her act of mercy and breaking the cycle ultimately saves her.
The game depicts some strange though realistic ironies throughout the narrative's course including somewhat unpredictable consequences, mixed in with quick shifts between motivations allowing characters to become either savior or villain in any instance. For example, Jordan tries to save Ellie from being murdered in order to extract information. He is later murdered by Ellie after Dina kills his compatriot and she is attacked by Jordan. Joel helps Abby and is later killed by Abby who also prevents her friends from murdering Ellie and Tommy. Owen becomes the most ardent and vocal proponent of not killing Ellie and Tommy, yet he is later killed by Ellie. And then Ellie saves Abby at the end only to force Abby to fight for her life and the life of her friend Lev. Ellie withdraws from that pursuit allowing Abby and Lev to escape the labor camp and her vengeance. These dynamics, to me, make the story rather interesting and compelling.
Yeah, that was the irony. At first i wished the game had ended at the farm with Dina and Ellie and I was raging with Ellie for leaving. But I now know that if she hadn't left, Abby and Lev would have died on the pillars and the slaves would still be captives.
Also Ellie wanted to kill Abby herself, she mentions one or two times throughout the game that she hopes that Abby hasn't been killed by a random infected
Something that I wanna add is that a lot of people like to talk about how "Ellie kills so many people yet when he finds Abby's friends she suddenly feels bad for what she does? bad writing" but I feel like people miss the point in a lot of these encounters, the reason why Ellie's mental state gets worse every time she finds one of her targets its because they have something that affects her personally, for example Nora makes Ellie question about how many people died because of what Joel did, and Ellie gets mad not because this is new information to her, but because that is the same reason she got mad at him and makes her remember that Joel was flawed and did awful things, the next death is Owen and Mel, when Ellie finds out Mel was pregnant I think it makes her hyperventilate because Dina also has a baby, finding out this similarities between the people who she loves and those who she kills makes her sick at the feeling that she may be becoming the person who she is trying to destroy. Or at least that is the way I interpret it, something I have always loved about TLOU series is how the characters never tell you how and why they feel certain things, so its up to you to decide.
That's not the bad writing part of it. That's good. Ellie regrets and questions what she's doing. She breaks down, mentally, after every kill (in the cut scenes). They make her doubt what she is doing is worth it. Then finally, evolves enough to let it go, of all the hate and revenge after killing Owen and Mel. She's humanized and you're able to sympathize with her. The bad writing part is that the game wants you to humanized and sympathize with Abby. But in my opinion, does a poor job of it. Her WLF friends are sorta one dimensional. You already know the fate of the ones she's close to, so you're already at a place of caring very little to make a connection to them, even if they were fleshed out. The game could have told the same story out of order and built these relationships up to make them matter...but too late for that. Her relationship and history with Owen make her friendship with Mel shakey to begin with, and then having sex with him while fully knowing he's with someone else and starting a family shows that she really didn't care for Mel. Then there's him pointing out that Lev told Abby to spare Dina...leaving out the part where Abby said "Good" as in she would be satisfied in her action of about to kill a pregnant woman. Kind of a big point to leave out to try and justify Abby's growth and ability to empathize. The only growth Abby experience is connecting to Lev and Yara...which I felt rushed. She didn't care about all the people she killed during the skirmishes between the WLF or the Seraphites, past or present. No remorse of betraying her friends. No internal conflict of leaving behind the life she had in Washinton. She got her revenge on Joel. Betrayed her friends and the WLF. Lost Owen, which it seemed like the only friend she cared about losing, but was losing him anyway due to the way his story was being told. Abby lost nothing, directly, and satisfied her revenge. Whereas Ellie, let go of her revenge but lost everything in her life. She had empathy and consciousness of what she had done and stopped in her pursuit of revenge twice because of it. Only continuing cause of the PDST she thought she could cure by revenge. Ellie's story is told with realistic and good writing (minus some cringy dialogue) and delivers the message this video is analyzing. Abby's story kinda undercuts that by showing, nah you can have your cake and eat it too. That said, the game should still be played if fan of the first one. Graphics, almost a 10/10. Gameplay, 8.5/10. Story...that's what makes this game around a 6.5-7/10.
I would also like to add that in their last confrontation with Abby, Ellie has seen Abby taking care of Lev the same way Joel took care of Ellie in the first game. She must have realized that killing Abby would rob Lev of his parental figure which is exactly what Abby did to her in the beginning of the game by killing Joel. If Ellie went through with it and killed Abby, I think she would never be able to forgive herself after realizing what she has become to avenge Joel even though Joel would have never wanted to her to risk her life and others' for that purpose. I think the way the game builds up to that moment in the end by drawing a lot of parallels between each side of the conflict and Ellie ultimately deciding to let go is the crowning achievement of this game and what makes this particular revenge story so good.
@@weaverquest lol no, ellie didn't care about their relationship, she even threatens to kill lev if abby would refuse to fight with her, had she realized what you're saying earlier she would've let them go immediately but no, she didn't.
yup! there are so many subtle details in the game that were meant to show you that ellie is getting worse with every person she kills. and also, if all a person got from this game is that "kILLiNg iS bAd" then i am truly sorry that they missed the entire point of the game
vltRakuen No. Please read the first reply made to this comment. It gives more critical analysts towards the more bad part of the writing aspect. Most people would agree that it’s the portrayal of Abby’s character development that doesn’t justify not killing her.
The parallel with Abby and lev is that Abby couldn't let go "it's a lead I've got to follow it up" and that of course ended with the deaths of her friends and family, lev couldn't let go of his desire to change the opinions of the seraphites his mother in particular and that led to the deaths of both his mother and his sister yara, both of them obsessed over things that couldn't be changed instead of valuing what they already had and it cost them everything. The same with Ellie's side of the story all of these characters were obsessed
One of the main themes is addiction/obsession. Dina’s struggle with Ellie at the end is realising that this addict could still sink deeper. I feel like playing through this as an addict might be quite powerful as it repeatedly displays the self-destructive patterns of an addict and how the likes of Abby, Ellie and Tommy systemically ruin their relationships through their obsession. Lev is the exact same thing, Yara was the one that recognised that his obsession needed to be dropped and even though this obsession was a lot less negative in theory, it still led to the destruction of everyone around Lev (his mum and Yara). In other words, I think this is spot on!
So just let go? Forgive and forget, move on, who cares. I mean if that’s the games message then sure that’s fine, though it’s one that we have heard numerous times, and a message that goes back centuries. I personally don’t think that this message needed to be told via TLOU’s franchise. It brutally dismembered many of the beloved characters in this game for what comes down to a very elementary story theme. IMO, they should have told this story in a different, brand new game. It would have at least made the experience somewhat enjoyable
Wait wait wait, I just realize during the game a character got shot in his hand fight against scars playing as Abby and Owen or someone was like “good thing you only need three fingers am I right” then my girl loses her two .
This was a throwaway comment from Manny at the Base before him and Abby travel to the FOB, I thought it was a wierd ancient proverb I'd never heard before but it existed to just be foreshadowing.
This video essay is a master class. For the duration, I was engaged and even eager because I was so captivated by your clear editing and focus on the elements of the story. You did an amazing job.
The way he spoke about the games more sensitive themes and subjects was perfect. It does kind of weave between a summary and analysis though, where I was looking for more analysis. Nonetheless a very good video!
I think they considered it, but wanted Ellie to realize it herself by using the flashback of Joel. The driving force of Ellie letting Abby go coming from her i own realization is more powerful than Lev begging her to stop.
As for the issues with Lev and his overtly traumatic story, I think it was mostly in place so that you as Abby had a Really good reason to make sure he was looked after. Lev becomes an instrumental motivator for Abby. She becomes all he has, and his approval and what he's already been through motivates her to let Ellie go. Inevitably, its her relationship with Lev, Her need to protect him because he's had such a rough go, and that evident love and devotion that Ellie see's in her as a reflection of Joel and herself in the end battle that not only convinces Ellie to let her go to protect Lev, but was the catalyst that let her finally bury her guilt about Joel, forgive him, forgive Abby and herself all in those final moments. If you're needing purpose to levs struggles beyong (Lifes tough and bad things happen to good people) I think Lev's purpose as a character is only evident when you see how important and familiar that pairing is, and the effect seeing it has on Ellie.
@@Mariomario-gt4oy this is a very well known psychological phenomenon, We see ourselves reflected in those we love. We refine our behaviour based on the reflections we see of ourselves in others... Empathy, accountability... Not new concepts, but occasionally poignant reminders.
Bab C The revenge John gets in the epilogue is the catalyst for the entirety of the first game and his eventual fate, as it leads the Marshalls right to him. So yes, revenge is definitely a fools game.
@@thesizzaman yes, but the point that the red dead series is full of revenge tropes should not go ignored. It should not go ignored that most of Arthur's missions in game involve some form of revenge. Although I love rdr2 more than tlou2, I can still admit that where revenge is concerned, rdr2 is an advent of hypocrisy and tlou2 is grounded more in the message that was actually preached by Arthur.
@@shanustheanus I don't necessarily disagree, however I find the two quite hard to compare in terms of their thematic framing. If the main theme of RDR2 is Arthur's journey of redemption, TLOU2's running theme is finding the will to move forward, the ability to let someone live who wronged you, in order to save oneself. The mistakes Joel made are repeated by Ellie until that last choice. If she killed Abby, his death becomes meaningless for her growth. Abby experienced this too when she let Ellie and Dina live, despite all they had done to her. While revenge is a motivator in both games, it's never the soul. What do you think?
23:54 btw Lev's actor is actually trans. I think he had some input on what the character should be like, like they did with Bill on the first game (not sure if the actor is gay, but he had input on that choice regarding to the character)
Actually Lev was not trans, but Naughty dog wanted to fit a diversity quota and so Lev was a good candidate for a trans character as Neil hadn’t figured out his motivation for leaving the island yet.
Harpreet Mangat i love it when people bring up the “forced diversity” thing, are you aware that LGBT+ people like . . . exist in real life? it’s not something that just exists in video games, is it so hard to believe that a type of person who exists in real life would show up in a video game?
@@ashai5989 Both Ellie being lesbian and Lev being trans actually works with their motivations, so I don't think anybody should be mad at that to be honest. Making Riley Ellie's first love instead of "just" her bestfriend made it much more impactful, and Lev being trans I don't even need to point it out :P
Let’s get something straight here. Joel was not the one that said “let’s stop and help the desperate family with a kid”. Joel is the one that said *“F*ck em, we got our own problems”.* We all love Joel because we saw the hell he went through and we went through it with him, but he was not a hero, he was in many respects a bad guy who just happened to find someone who brought out the last bit of humanity he had.
Dan Bad Guy’s actions can be justified. There are a lot of bad things that Joel does that can be justified through his loss but they are bad things nonetheless. You could justify him killing the Doctor with his unbreakable bond with Ellie but at the end of the day he did not need to kill the Doctor and it was a rash decision that was going to have repercussions.
Yes but boiling Joel down to just a "bad guy" doesn't do him justice at all. If Joel is abad guy then so are the fireflies and every other group in the apocalypse. The only group I'd say you could make a case for being truly bad or evil were the cannibals.
jayyTeęe s Even if you consider Joel an anti-hero, that doesn’t justify his nonsensical death in this story. Think about it like this; the Joker is one of the most beloved characters in all of comic book history, yet he is by all means a deranged, psychotic, sadistic killer. Now, let’s imagine for a second that DC decides to kill off the Joker. They could have the Joker be gunned down in the middle of the street by some random police officer who has been hunting him down for the last 5 years. You could argue that that would be a realistic death for this serial killer, but I promise you fans would be in an outrage, because that death thematically doesn’t make sense. Rival this scenario with the way the Joker was killed in the comic, the killing Joke. The joker, after taking everything from Batman, in one last sadistic act, manages to make Batman laugh at one of his jokes. The symbolizes the Joker finally breaking Bruce Wayne, as he laughs maniacally before breaking Jokers neck. That death symbolizes everything the Joker was about, and is a fitting death for horrible, yet beloved character. Yeah you could argue maybe the first example was more realistic, but the second was much more impactful
Hi the point is that while Joel isn’t the worst kind of person, he’s not one of the good ones. Examine Joel’s actions throughout part 1 and you’ll notice that a lot of what he does is for himself. Compare that to someone like Lee Everett from TWD game, Lee was a selfless person. His actions echoed moral righteousness and so he earned a gratifying death. Like I said, we all love Joel, we routed for him but not because what he did was right but because we understood him. Joel isn’t the kind of character that gets a gratifying death, he wronged a lot of people in some of the worst ways and unlike someone like Arthur Morgan from RDR2 he never tried to redeem himself from those wrongs except when it was for Ellie. Like it or not he was always going to see the consequences.
Afro Shinobi when I say “In many respects he is a bad guy” what I mean is he is a bad guy in the eyes of many people. Through our eyes and Ellie’s eyes he’s perceived as the hero of the story but to many others, including Abby, he’s the psycho who killed a doctor and deprived the world of a vaccine that could’ve put humanity back on track and let’s face it, he kinda was.
M.M whether there are people who like the game or not doesn’t matter there are many things this game did objectively bad that this video failed to cover.
(Trans guy here, lol) Lev killing his mother was part of the conversation of his being trans. You learn that he still has a great attachment to his group, religion, and his mother. The fact that they betray him is surprising and hurtful, but he still expects his mother to love him because she is his Mother. All of the trauma he experiences, including the incidental killing of his mother, is him being forced by society to reevaluate his relationship to every other aspect of his being, of which his closest relationships are not exempt. Transphobia OFTEN in real life forces trans people to push away those they love most and who they feel emotionally obligated to. However, this also becomes part of the backlash from the LGBTQ community. There was a WHOLE LOT of disappointment that Lev’s birth name is even mentioned, and the excessive trauma that he undergoes caused TLOU2 to be deemed “trans abusive” (but not necessarily transphobic). I personally find some forgiveness because trans representation is incredibly needed and important in the game industry. Lev is also one of the most developed side characters in the entire game, and embodies the humanity that Abby must seek out. On top of that, you are encouraged to kill the transphobic enemies, and I happily did so.
I didn’t catch that. Well put. I Thought about the name “Lily” and the fact the he was expected to wife some of the island’s elders just made total sense now. Thanks
I thought the point was that you aren't supposed to be happy about killing people period. Because ultimately transphobic people are ignorant or are victims of propaganda. Dead naming is wrong and a form of torture if deliberately done to cause Lev to suffer but I fail to see why the dead naming is an issue if the literal disembowelment of people from other religions isn't. Both clearly aren't endorsed by the video game so the giant fuss about seems pretty dumb.
Real talk: as soon as I heard a Scar yell, “you can’t run from us Lilly.” I immediately said, “oh they’re fucking dead.” Loved Lev, he’s such a great character.
While I’m not trans or have had any real communication with the LGBTQ community, I found that whole interaction really enlightening; it made me realize how cruel society can be to trans (and other LGBTQ in general) and really made me sympathize with Lev.
Exactly man I was getting so tired of people just dissing the game because Joel died smh. Luckily there are a few people who actually appreciate the messages the story was meant to send
I disagree. It feels like the ones who often say it isn't as bad or its good don't know what it means to be in a fandom or what video gaming means as a hobby. It is that lack of consideration and selfish denial that made the players angry. Not some cutscene to a video game, or else we would have many cases of this happening. It is that inhumane behavior that players try to correct and thusly punish people for. Understand both cases be willing to stand with those whom you agree with. Because in the end I still share drinks with liberals even though I'm a conservative. I still buy dinner for Christians when I myself am Catholic. But this....this is handing me a bone and ensuring I don't grow myself as a person because others decided to be angry for me. To act out in my place. As an lgbtq I have my own goals and life. I do not wish for others to control me for it nor scorn me for how I choose to live. Consideration. People need to practice more morals because this is getting disgusting that it never crossed your minds to try to understand us as the 1st fandom and what we feel.
Ppl. Just wanted the game to fail! 1st. It was a SJW agenda then ND bad working conditions,then the leaks (transexual kills Joel) ,then Abby is to big , why did they kill Joel so early ,oh the “kiss” ! There are players who loved the TLOU1 gameplay but the TLOU2 gameplay is garbage .I mean ppl. are just sheeps ,looking to much on ratings of others ! I loved the 1st game , i love the 2nd its one of the best games this generation
Before dissecting Ellie's brain which would eventually kill her, most practical and humane thing to do would be waking her up and take her consent. She Would be very happy to make the sacrifice and even could convince Joel of it avoiding all the mascaras.
SalmanKarim Actually the most practical move would be to kill Joel without letting him know what’s going on so he wouldn’t be able to stop them, while also not telling Ellie that they were going to kill her Incase she said no. It wouldn’t be humane, but killing a 15 yr old for any reason would be inhumane so if I were the Fireflies I would have just killed them both.
@@FelixTwo22 I don't think they need to kill Joel, we played the game and know the bond between Joel and Ellie, but for the Fireflies Joel is just a smuggler that finished his job of transporting Ellie to the Hospital and they need to pay him some guns.
Gregory Solarte Well Joel’s job was simply to take Ellie to the capitol building in Boston, he did that other stuff of his own accord and it’s a logical assumption that if he spent an entire year with her, he Amy have developed an affection towards her and he’d be hesitant to just let her die. That’s why the doctor didn’t even want Marlene to tell Joel that they were going to kill her, and he was right.
Not only does Abby’s muscle tone have logic and reason behind it, it also is a symbol of her resolve. In a sense, her muscles are her armor. She built it up for years after her world was completely shattered. At the end, you can see that she has is emaciated and spent, not only nutritionally, but emotionally as well
Also: Abby had every right to seek revenge against Joel. But the way she tortured him first is meant to be indicative of the ways that the pursuit of revenge twisted and changed her, the same way it will eventually turn Ellie into someone she is not. We are *supposed* to hate Abby. We are supposed to see the horror of what she did. The rest of the story is supposed to provide perspective on that
ALSO also. Not only did Joel kill Abby’s dad, he killed the single sense of hope that*many* people thought was their last chance at saving humanity. Abby’s life was largely shaped BY the fireflies and the pursuit of a cure. When joel does this, he also wrecks Abby’s sense of identity. Who is Abby outside of the fireflies? So she centers her identity arojdn the only other purpose she feels she has- revenge. But once she goes through a parallel arc to what Joel does in the first game, the bonding with a child, she begins to see hope again. Ellie loses her sense of identity upon learning what Joel did, too. And her preoccupation with “finishing it” doesn’t come from her anger at Abby- it comes from her inability to forgive herself. It comes from her struggle with her sense of purpose outside of being “the cure.” Both characters go through their own arc of realizing that revenge wasn’t the thing that was going to help them. Hell, Abby completed her revenge and she STILL had the nightmares
"Just because you don't like something, or that it wasn't what you expected, doesn't make it objectively bad. It just means you don't like it." As a writer, I can appreciate this so much. You done did good, dude.
That's a completely true statement. However, it's wrong to assume that all criticism of the game is from people who just wanted a different kind of story. I think the storytelling was kind of bad. Looking back, it seems like this kind of story could have been much more successful if told by different writers, or if it was assembled in a different way. It just didn't work for me... I never gained sympathy for Abby or felt that Ellie did anything wrong. I disliked playing as Abby as my goal in the game was to kill her... I don't want to be her and help her succeed, and her storyline didn't change my mind about that. Some of the scenes were very well done, especially the flashbacks, but the overall story just didn't work for me. Especially the ending. Ellie was so incredibly motivated to seek revenge, it just doesn't make sense to me at all that she would suddenly give up on it at the last second. That could work if Ellie had never killed before and didn't realize she wouldn't be able to go through with killing Abby... but the Ellie in this game is a cold hearted killer, having dispatched dozens of people without a care. She didn't worry about any of their friends or family feeling a loss or continuing the cycle of revenge, but suddenly that matters when it comes to Joel's killer? I just don't think the story the writers were going for was told in an effective way.
@@bobdonda Everyone keeps bring up the NPCs she kills as if they weren't soldiers that didn't have orders to kill all trespassers on sight. It was stated BEFORE she even started killed them that they were going to kill her. We were killing clickers before then
Having finished playing the game without any spoiler or knowing anything about the development, leaks ect I logged onto the internet to see what people thought of it. I mean my god I know there are some hostile people online but the amount of straight up hate speech I’ve been seeing about this game is shocking! I read an entire redit thread complaint about Abby the trans getting but raped in her sex scene. Like what? You guys hear that there is a trans character and immediately assume that it the chick with muscles? I can’t understand why some people would put so much energy into spreading false info about a game they clearly have not even played!
". . .spreading false info about a game they clearly have not even played!" This is undoubtedly where the low Metacritic score comes from. Some of the reviews I've read have been illiterate parroting of the same ill informed points.
Unfortunately, this. I think a lot of people were angry about Naughty Dog's treatment of the leaks, and their punishment of those people who were spreading them (even to the point of punishing people on TH-cam that hadn't even said/showed anything), that they decided to review-bomb the game en masse - especially considering near-unanimous praise from critics. It's unfortunate, but I think a lot of these reviews actually *were* from people who never even played the game, but were just trying to punish Naughty Dog. I get the anger over that, and I agree - ND's handling of that situation was not great. That's no reason to purposefully just throw massive shade on an entire game for it - that's literally punishing the developers who actually made this great game.
@@TassadarBJ Good assessment. I think I side with ND in all this, as I can't say what I would do if I spent 7 years on a hush hush IP only to have it sloppily divulged online by angry man children just before launch.
Yeah I had the same experience. I avoided ALL media on this game until I finished it two days ago and MY GOD the disgusting underbelly of the internet has really surfaced for this one. Very disappointing, but fuck'em. I loved the game so it's their loss if they're disappointed with it, especially those that never even gave it a chance.
The writers took it a step further with the cycle of revenge by giving all the NPCs you kill names. It's like they're telling you that each one has an Abbie or an Ellie whose world was just shattered now that their loved one is gone.
People are saying her body is.. unrealistic. I mean there are a lot of buff woman out there and I guess a lot of people forgot the fact the WLFS base was a football stadium and has the gym equipment perfectly intact. Plus we saw her lean on the flash flash and she only developed muscles when she focused her years to get revenge.
Abby's body is 100% unrealistic within the context of the game. As a soldier who has lived in expeditionary conditions, I can tell you that even men in a situation like that don't bulk up, they lean out. No matter how hard you work out, if you're moving and fighting as much as the WLF does, you simply cannot recover and strengthen enough to achieve the body Abby has. And before you say that she's based on an actual person (Colleen Fotsch,) Crossfit has such a poor anti-doping record that she's almost certainly on steroids. ALL THAT BEING SAID... It doesn't matter. Abby's physicality informs the narrative, shows her grief at her father's death, and her drive to seek revenge. If this issue ruined the game for someone, it's a miniscule and insignificant thing to get bent out of shape for.
ngl, from the way some people described it, I thought the characters who weren't white would just be tacked on for brownie points. But turns out they're an important part o the narrative, that's neat.
@@PureSwedishViking More like they read that Joel died, and you play as Joel's killer and in the end you spare Abby. These people are borderline delusional, they know like 3-5 plot points of the game and act as if they have feasibility to judge and rate the game.
Lev's story was well done in my opinion. I saw people on twitter giving the disclaimer that the game had transphobia, to the point of basically being transphobic torture porn, so I was expecting a LOT worse. I thought it was handled maturely, and naughty dog's decision to tell Lev's backstory mostly through vague vocal exposition was by far the best choice. I was really happy to have some decent representation.
I feel the same exact way. It’s impossible to say that bigotry wouldn’t still exist in a post-apocalyptic world, especially in a religious group. I think the writers were as realistic as possible, and strayed from being unnecessarily offensive
Absolutely. I thought it was exactly as subtle as it should be, Naughty Dog didn’t shove it in your face, none of the characters really made unnecessary remarks about it. It was just kind of, this is how it is, and everything just moves on.
@@samirsherif2007 I liked it tbh. It gives him and Abby a bond in the end, that they were both shunned by their people over something quite trivial. And it gives motivation for his existence blah blah blah.
@@samirsherif2007 people hating on this game always like to minimize the characters and their stories. sure, that's exactly what his story is, but with so much more built onto it
I love how everyone’s either like “this game is a beautiful master piece” or they think it’s leftist propaganda trash. I wanted play for myself and I thought it was simply ok, like it wasn’t the greatest but like I wasn’t outraged over it
Agreed. I enjoyed the characters. I appreciated Abby's muscular physique and it's development throughout the main and back stories. I found the games story line frenetic with a lack of cohesion. I also appreciate you're bringing up body types. It has been completely blown out of proportion. Thank you for this video.
The arguing around this game made me not like it... So exhausting. After finishing, it was ok, I felt the characters weren’t as interesting as the previous game.
Agreed. It wasn’t amazing but it wasn’t bad either. I actually liked Abby’s portion of the game more tbh. What really kills it for me is the lack of an online mode. I spent so many hours on factions.
I just realized that at the start abby gets recused by Joel, who's the one she wanted to kill, then at then end, she gets rescued by a person who also wanted to kill her, Ellie.
Ellie at the end "go...just take him." Of course speaking in regards the Lev but I sort of thought of it as a way of her saying to just go and take that part of her life (Joel) that she could never reclaim. Probably just a personal takeaway but *shrug*
You know, I don't agree with many of your opinions on this game. Personally it's the best game I've ever played, but this is easily the best video I've seen on TLOU2. You don't like the game, but you acknowledge it's strengths and weaknesses. You talk about how disgustingly horrible people are being and respectfully explain why they're in the wrong. You don't try to talk about the things you don't know (Lev's situation) and you intelligently talk about the things you do know. Bravo, man. I may not agree with some things you said but that doesn't matter at all
@@azure89 ya I've played the first one like 6 or 7 times. I personally prefer the second one. The story is more unique, deeper, and it takes more risks and I think the gameplay is better (not to mention the improved graphics). Im definitely in the unpopular opinion there but ya I think the second one takes the magic of the first and just improves on it
@@avramsanders9198 Agreed. I found more appreciation of the first one on a second play-through, but the second one blew it out of the water on every level.
I noticed an interesting parallel when playing as Abby. When she turns on the WLF in order to save Lev, it had the same feeling as when Joel turned on the Fireflies to save Ellie. You’re basically laying waste to all these people who were once allies for the sake of a child you’ve grown to love. It made playing as Abby worth it (which I did not want to do at first due to my strong connection to Joel and Ellie thanks to the first game). Personally, I enjoyed the game overall. Thank you for the excellent analysis.
Kenneth Harris I too saw a similar parallel. One can argue that Joel never saw the fireflies as allies though. If anything he was very distrusting of them throughout the first game.
Great point! Regarding the WLF, I think the implication is that Abby only really stuck with them as a means to an end - to train as a fighter and eventually find (and kill) Joel. Since all of her friends were killed, and due to Isaac's poor leadership, she no longer had an emotional attachment to the group. But to your point, I feel the story is intentionally drawing parallels between Abby and Joel's journey (their gameplay is also very similar from a mechanical standpoint). Joel's decision to save Ellie was almost selfish in a way. From my perspective, it was less about saving her life, but rather a desperate attempt to save what little humanity he had left. I think that was the same reason Abby went after Lev and his sister. It wasn't because she "really" cared about them (not at the beginning at least) - instead, it was a desperate attempt to atone for her sins (exacting revenge), and to regain the humanity she lost when killing Joel. Regardless, I thought the story was beautifully told.
Joel didn't turn on the Fireflies. They turned on him. They took Ellie and acted all high and mighty, escorting him on gunpoint without his stuff. I wouldn't call it a betrayal, because he never trusted them in the first place, but this for sure wasn't a sign of love.
Abby has known Lev for literally a day and a half, maybe two. This absolutely NOTHING like Joel taking months to trust Ellie and longer to begin loving her dearly. Abby's soft spot for Lev & Yara is contrived.
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO GETS IT! This guy doesnt even like the game but almost everything he says i fully agree(i love the game btw), he actually understands story structure and writing better than 99% of "critics" out there, its fine if you disagree with the story like he does in the video but he understands why it isnt bad and because of that he gets a sub from me, very well done video dude!
boils down to if you liked TLOU and was invested in Joel Ellie you will hate TLOU2 if you didnt care for tlou that much you probably enjoy 2 as well.simple. I hated TLOU2 so i let you guess what my opinion of TLOU is
I also liked the story. It’s very well written and I appreciated the fact that Ellie didn’t kill Abby. In a way how the first game is about Joel’s redemption, the second can be summed up as Ellie’s acceptance of what Joel did, even if it was for selfish reasons. I avoided spoilers for this game like the plague. Didn’t want to see anything that would ruin the experience for me which I’m glad I did.
@@Jaklas1979 Agreed. I loved the dynamic between Joel and Ellie but I also liked this game. The thing is, they didn't have to tell this exact plot about revenge and not sure why they chose that they needed too. The story works well but people really didn't want this, they wanted another Joel and Ellie game.
My thoughts on a couple of things: I think that playing as Abby and retrospectively interacting with characters that Ellie has killed was a good choice. Its too easy to indiscriminately kill in games without thought. Which is exactly what you do as Ellie. You then go on to see that these people had lives, their own ambitions, goals etc and realise there's much more to them. It further develops the idea that your actions have consequences. With Lev, the loss of his mother is just an additional event mounting against him. Its like the nail in the coffin to walk away from the Scars. In turn, it helps bring him and Abby closer and he becomes the catalyst for Abby to make the pivotal decision to spare Dina and Ellie. Without the death of his mother, he wouldn't have had the push he needed to run away from it all. Really enjoyed the video. I think it needed to be expressed that just because the story was a very bitter pill to swallow (my reaction to switching to Abby was "FUCK THIS GAME!!!"), it doesn't mean that it's a bad story.
Thank you for this. Even when I saw the leaks (and thought I would hate playing as Abby, which I did not) I was thinking HOLY SHIT THIS GAME IS GONNA BE GENIUS! And I'm so glad I was right. I loved how this game connected to me as the player, making me feel guilt and often at times making me want to specifically go the stealth route just to not kill. Just stop. Stop all the violence is what I kept thinking to myself. And Ellie AND Abby both stopped it at the end! It was a beautifully tragic tale of 2 women who lost their father(figure)s, and what it took from them in both their path of destruction and obsession/redemption. It was just hard to play and get through, and so much to think about.
The same happened the same to me when first playing as Abby after she killed Joe. I was like I don’t wanna play this game any more. But oh man, I really ended up liking her character!
@@bloodyrevenge7635 exactly why don't they go make a game specifically for Abby then I didn't play this game to feel some kind of guilt 😂 I was already subriced to Joel and ellies onslaught and loved the game like most because of what they stood for this game spits in the face of that
What's even scarier and more concerning is how quickly other people blindly dismiss anyone who criticizes the game as "having just jumped on the hate bandwagon" when clearly they haven't bothered hearing those critics out. The amount of strawmanning coming from those people who speak positively of the game is astronomical.
a mordor orc I’d argue that there are far more people hating on the game that haven’t played it. Some people outright admit that even though they haven’t played the game that it’s still bad. No offense but I haven’t seen too many people do what you’re saying.
AJ Martinez funny I don’t remember saying EVERYONE who hates the game is on a bandwagon. The game has its flaws and I actually have some problems with the story, but there is a very vocal crowd who hate it through word of mouth alone.
AJ Martinez yeah one thing everyone can agree on is that the game is very polarizing compared to the first. It’s trying something risky with it’s story rather than playing it safe.
"There is nothing more dreadful than the habit of doubt. Doubt separates people. Doubt destroys friendships and happy relations. It is like a poison that irritates and hurts. It is a sword that kills without drawing blood." - Buddha
What do you feel is the context for this quote, in relationship to this review? I might assume it's to do with negativity (as doubt) poisoning audience perception of TLoU2 despite its qualities? Perhaps in the context of TLoU2's story and characters, as a mechanism that destroys relationships and lives? In any case, I think it's important to consider the distinction between cynical doubt and skeptical doubt. I think doubt, when used as a razor for discerning truth or quality, is incredibly valuable. I dig the Buddha, but the meaning can become distorted by evolving language patterns.
@@ajtemp2000 Yes, with a caveat -- I figure suspicion is essentially what the quote would refer to, which I would include in the blanket category of cynical doubt (cynicism is rooted in the assumption that human motivation is recklessly selfish; a mindset that would certainly encourage suspicion/paranoia). However, I felt there was some uncertainty about what Tea Tea intended the quote to apply to, which is why I was asking for thoughts & context.
Something that I thought of since I finished watching the gameplay last week. By the end of the story, Abby has been mourning her father for about 5 years. We see her in the last year of that grief. The game starts with Joel dying. We are actively watching the first year or so of Ellie's grief. Grief makes you irrational. Some other people were complaining that this is out of character for Ellie, but she just lost someone that was nearly family to her. And unlike what happened in Left Behind, this was due to the actions of another thinking human being. She had someone to blame. Not circumstances, not the plague, not a faceless organization. Someone.
Not the bite of an infected, the scratch of a werewolf, nor demonic possion make a monster in this story. All it takes is a person and an act of brutality to cause an infection. A person can destroy your heart, and you become a vengeful monster.
8:16 AMEN! Think whatever you want, but make sure it's what YOU think. It's called being an adult (which this game is rated for). Seriously, if there's an argument to be made for video games not being art, then gamers are that argument.
True but there's always going to be an objective truth no matter what. Yes video games are art and art is subjective, but shouldn't be pissed off when someone critiques your work.
This is how you do a review. Whilst I personally love the story and it’s bold take on continuing their story, I understand it’s divisive. But you managed to still respect the devs, fans, and people with opposing opinions. You looked at it from a non biased perspective, and for that, you get a cookie.
@@NCA_Azzy what? You just proved his point. Joel wasn't a bad person but isnt a hero either yet people love him for being a caring father and doing what he can to survive. He changes here for the good too and Ellie cares about him.
Nameless Chaos Alliance He isn’t. He didn’t save Ellie coz she’s a teenage girl who had her choice taken away. He took her choice away by killing the doctor and lying to her. He saved Ellie coz she’s his new Sarah.
For me, the most interesting part about the game are the Seraphites. They have their own culture, their own island, and although I disliked playing as Abby, exploring the island was the best part by far. In the end I was only interested in whether the Seraphites could fight off the Wolves and protect their home.
Actually, when you enter the theater as Abby, on Seattle day 3, you can listen to the radio that Wolfs are losing to Scars. I guess the Seraphite won and they will come back on a The Last of Us Part 3 sequence
The only real issue with ellie and dina is that they could have exploded their conflict (dina being concerned that ellie is going too far) rather than having her stay behind. I do really like the story of the second game. Dina being pregnant therefore in danger doesn’t make ellie even suggest going back and is fine with dina being in danger if it means she can get revenge. This actually fits with the end of the game because ellie sacrifices her relationship all for the sake of revenge
What a great, respectful and non-biased take. Loved it! Don't mind if people didn't like the game, just that the immature biased videos/comments got tiresome real quick. At the end of day it's a videogame folks, get a grip.
@Unfiltered Reality Yes cause it's vital, super important I get mad over a videogame, as ACG stated at the end of his review. Did you even watch the video? It was a breakdown of only the story itself. What are you getting at for discarding 0/10 and 10/10 reviews? If your talking about me being upset at the negative reviews of this title, you couldn't be more off. I take all my video game reviews with a grain of salt. Take for intense the first TLOU. Universally acclaimed by the majority of reviews everywhere. I for one thought the game was just "meh". The same thing I could say for GTA 5. I loved all the 3D GTA games right until part 5. God Hand, a title for the PS2, which was received negatively, became one of my all time favorites.
70 percent of the original naughty dogs writers and makers were pushed out by Neil so we all now who had real talent stop justifying it that’s most of fan base says it’s trash even the original naughty dog writers who made last of us says it’s trash 😂😂😂
I think the fact that this game has brought up so much discussion and controversy shows that its a pretty damn good story. It's brutal, depressing, and doesn't really give the player any satisfaction, but it makes you think and leaves a lot up to interpretation. Personally I felt one of the games biggest messages was that nobody in their world is really 'good' or 'bad', they're just on different sides. Joel deprived the world of a potential cure and killed a lot of people, Abby kills Joel, Ellie slaughters a lot of people on the path to kill Abby, Abby kills a lot of the people closest to Ellie, the WLF is just trying to survive and so are the seraphites. I don't understand the hatred of Lev's portrayal either. Instead of putting in a trans character for the sake of having one, and giving him some special treatment, they portrayed what that experience would be like in the context of this brutal world. You even get to enact revenge on the people that wronged him, I can't imagine how they could have done his character any differently without watering it down.
I didn’t even really see Lev as a trans character, just a kid trying to get out of arranged marriage and wanting to fight. Is Mulan a trans character now too?
Imo a depressing story is a bad story, I don’t wanna feel sad or depressed I wanna feel good and happy Because it’s a video game and that’s the purpose of it...
Caroline Morais it might not make sense to you but to me it does, a sad story gives off bad vibes to me it makes me feel bad therefor I don’t like it, I play the game to feel good not to feel bad.
@@user-wx5sx5xt7e this is a joke right? With your logic The Departed, Schindler's list, and Sixth Sense are depressing stories and therefore must be bad. Red dead redemption is depressing is it a bad story?
I loved the game for what it is too. I can respect the fact that the developers told a story that would logically happen with the characters rather than just another mountain of fan service many other sequels do sometimes. (Not gonna lie, I still LOVE the flashbacks to better times with Joel and Ellie 🙂)
I began seeing tlou 2 as a good game because they (Neil,Troy,ashley) explained everything in an interview Yall can watch the interview in kinda funny games channel
This review made me feel more sane about my take on the story. I understand not liking it, but the people saying the writing/story were trash.. I don't get it, and aside from some of the pacing, I don't think they have good arguments, and i've really listened. Thanks for the video!
Agree. The hate for this game, if we’re being honest, comes from Joel’s death and LGBT representation. One half hates the game because they killed off their favorite character and the other half is because there’s LGBT representation which they automatically assume is pandering but it’s truthfully just homophobia.
@@ariesgonzalezag Sorry, but no. Most arguments from people who dislike this game has valid reasons, me included after finishing the game. The poor pacing, character development, plot holes and many more. But they still praising the visuals and combat etc. In fact, some of the bad reviews including me think that Ellie and Dina's relationship could've developed better, like I wish they would talk more, see more of them, but the game fails that. So, I think saying "the hate for this game comes from Joel's death and LGBT representation" is dismissing people's valid arguments and so far from the truth.
There's to things that are bad story Joel's death as it was completely out of character how he died he would not react how he did in that room. Its fine he died but but its how the character dies. The second is Ellie she doesn't act how she does in the first yes she's grown as a character so there will be changes but somethings just didn't make sense especially the choices she made. The story telling is just not up to the high standard of the first. This is just my opinion though
hahaha in the Asian culture it is not normal and not feminine to not trim armpit hairs, but I get it that is maybe normal to some cultures, and this is a fictional world where they do not have that culture of vanity where a woman is expected to trim armpit or leg hairs.
I think the point of Lev’s mothers death is to compare to both Abby losing her father and Ellie losing Joel. Parental death is also present with JJ losing Jesse before he’s even born. I could be reading to deep into it but that’s how I viewed it
Late comment, but it’s not just about losing a parent. It’s about losing a loved one in general. Henry from the first game is similarly horrified when he loses Sam, and some of the scattered notes tell a story about Boris, a former leader and a hunter who completely loses himself after the WLF killed his daughter.
I feel like people hopped on the whole “its a lazy revenge plot” bandwagon and missed a lot of important story points in the game. That criticism is an oversimplification of the plot that does the game a great disservice.
Its got horses, its got Joel's revolver, its got the music, its got a community made of wood. You have to navigate the world without GPS or straight roads. Yeah, its a western. Neo-Western if you include automatic weapons and working vehicles.
I’m beginning to see that probably a lot of the reason I might have a more favorable opinion of this game is down to my emotional perspective. For one thing, Joel’s death didn’t make me feel betrayed by the game because I’ve had to deal with a loved one dying in a very sudden, unfair, and random way, and so my brain is already familiar with processing that particular kind of grief. Joel’s death made me sad and reminded me of my own pain, but I knew, that’s just how it is sometimes. For another thing, the violence and moral ambiguity in this game brought me back to when I read war books like Slaughterhouse Five and The Things They Carried back in high school, and again, it was all very familiar. Things like this have happened, and still happen. “So it goes.” “War is hell.” I’m not trying to say that I’m somehow more mature or anything, but I do think I was less inclined to think up reasons to hate this game because it didn’t shock me so much.
linden I think you have something there. I think anyone who’s read litarary works is used to depictions of tragedy, and more comfortable with exploring negative emotions. These days I think a lot of people just want their stories to make them feel good. I like those kinds of stories too, but I also like stories that are uncomfortable and make me think and explore different feelings and ideas.
I agree with you here. My dad died of a sudden heart attack when I was 16, around the time the first game came out. Being a teenager, I had no idea how to process that grief, and it took me years to come to terms with it. I learnt that I had a lot in common with the characters in the first game for that reason. This second part seemed to take it even further. It gives me the impression that Neil has experienced a devastating and unexpected loss of his own, and I think it comes through with the emotional development of both Ellie and Abby throughout the game. As I’ve shared a similar experience, maybe I understood that more than other people who haven’t had to deal with that kind of trauma. You’re right, it’s not about maturity per se, but one’s personal experience and their ability to empathise/relate to the emotions of grief-stricken characters, who both find and lose their humanity throughout the story.
I also personally really loved the game too because I tend to be an emotional masochist and consume a decent amount of media that can be very emotionally challenging or even traumatic. I don't have a similar experience of loss, but I have a lot of experience with abuse and it often corrupts people in the same way. For me I see it like the cycle of abuse and how the pain we experience can often poison us and drive us to inflict pain on others.
What you say is really interesting. Honestly I think people were so mad about Joel's death was because it was so unexpected and real. So many stories give their characters too much plot armour so we never expect them to be killed in such brutal and unexpected ways. ND gave us a reality and unfortunately some people just couldn't handle that.
20:14 "An eye for an eye, and the world goes blind." Ayeeeee Markus says that in Detroit Become Human if you choose not to shoot Chris, one of the cops being held at gunpoint by your Android people
I don't leave that many comments, but this essay said everything I wanted to and more. The pedestal the fanbase put Joel on somehow enabled some of the worse dialogue I've seen on Internet forums. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
@@TheCosmonautStrand I feel for the guy. I don't know if I liked him and I felt bad that I didn't. But four years of lying to Ellie just really irked me. He's a well written character for sure though.
when people say "Joel deserved better" I genuinely question whether they've either played the first game or just watched the story. Either way would surely suffice to create the opinion that Joel got exactly what he deserved.
@@Sam-mi9wi Yes but he is also a character which ND purposefully made likeable in the first game. If you played it, you would understand why he is adored.
This was a great breakdown! Thanks. This game took me a couple days to process. Its deep. It challenges your emotions. I would say much of the same conclusions you came to are very similar to those I realized after thinking about. You have also given me some additional things to think about as well. I will say this much up front, at the first climactic moment, when the story flips from Ellie to Abby, I was not happy. I didn’t hate the game, just was not happy with the position I was put in as a player. Everything up to that point was Ellie’s (*my) revenge for what Abby did to Joel. I killed every WLF I came across up to that point, as I viewed them no better than Abby. To also, be honest, I did that because it made it easier search for all the collectibles too, but it was motivated by revenge. The moment the cutscene switch to Abby, I was not happy, and I knew what ND was trying to do. At that point, I kinda didn’t want to pick the controller back up. Looking back now, I realize this is exactly what ND wanted. They wanted us to not just see Ellies pain/revenge, but feel as if it were our own. And, now, I see how that is great story telling simply in that they did not just make us (the player) witness to the story, as if we were some passive observers, rather they wanted us invested in it, to feel, to suffer with the characters. That is immersion. That is storytelling that truly makes the story feel real. This is the difference between this game and the first. The first game is more of a story where we are along for the ride. Sure, we become emotionally invested, but from a more distant perspective. We sympathize with the characters we see everything through their eyes. We can’t help but feel for their struggle. There is no real controversy, except up until the end. Part 2, on the other hand, though 10 hours in, makes you feel twist in your gut, early on, and you have to struggle with it the rest of the game. As Abby, I struggled at first. I mean, lets be honest, I wanted to see what the ending would be, so I just played on, even if I was not really excited to play as Joel’s killer. But as her story goes, you can see that she has as much reason, if not maybe more, to enact her revenge. You see her struggle, growth, and eventual character arc. By the time the two story’s meet again, you are thrown into a place you (the player) dont want to be, fighting as Abby against Ellie. That was tough. Throwing every punch was very very hard. I died so many times at this part, partly because Ellie was a tough boss battle, and partly because I didn’t know what ND was going to do, and I didn’t want it to be the worst possible thing, kill Ellie. I didn’t really believe that would be the case but I still feared it. Same is the case for the end, fighting as Ellie against Abby. I just didn’t want to kill Abby, and in this point in the story, it was much more a real possibility that ND could have made us do that, despite any common sense one would have to the story ND was actually trying to tell, and killing Abby was not in it. Emotions were high, judgement off, so it all felt raw and real. It for this reason why I respect the way ND crafted this story. I suppose I could nit pick the story and find things that were not the best, but I do not think that is the real achievement here. I many ways I too would have expected a different story, and maybe even preferred one. But, having really seen it in full now, along with the meaning of it all, and despite the anguish I felt playing through much of the later stories major climactic points, it was what I want in a riveting story. Most stories told, whether in the form of movie, tv show, game, or whatever medium, are just stories we passively observe, sometimes mindlessly, and other times, making us feel something, but rarely, if ever have I ever felt as if I were actually part of the story, maybe not physically, but most definitely emotionally. And, most stories have a beginning middle and end, with some form of bow tied on at the end concluding everything (a.k.a happy ending), giving a person not much more to think about, or toss and turn at night over. That’s the fantasy story telling style. That’s not real life. Real life is messy and stories we experience often dont have nice neat endings, often dragging on the rest of our lives. ND’s ending to Part 2 is precisely that, a more realistic ending, fitting to real life, and thus making the experience, though maybe uncomfortable, more real. We usually prefer the happy ending because it acts like a drug and allows us to numb the pain of our real life. That’s why this can be even harder to accept. This My takeaway from the message ND is trying to say is, there are always two sides to a story. We all live our lives, and only see it through our own eyes. Our perspective, therefore, is naturally biased to our experience. The average person lives this way, judging and acting solely on their bias, never really taking into account how someone’s else experience and perspective may make something different. I feel like this story is trying to say, before you act on your thoughts and emotions, in reaction to something, whatever that may be in life, maybe its good to take a step back and consider if maybe the story is different from another perspective. Maybe your actions are not as justified as you may feel they are if you look at it from a different set of eyes. In the world we live in today, this especially feels very true, as there are even greater societal differences than ever before. Also, another little thing I noticed, and I do not recall if you noted this, but it would appear ND was trying to give Abby/Lev a similar sort of arc and story as the Joel/Ellie. Conveniently, Lev is 13, where Ellie was 14 in the first game. Also, Abby seems to be revered in the WLF’s, presumably for her conduct on the field against the Scars, whom she clearly hates, so it would seem they are painting potentially darker past, especially if you throw in the hate she carries for Joel, and eventually acts on. It almost seems like they want to give Abby an arc similar to Joel’s, where Joel didn’t like Ellie and wanted nothing to do with her, similarly Abby didn’t like the Scars, but because of her interaction with Yara/Lev she slowly began to care, as Joel eventually did with Ellie. This, of course, then evolves into Abby viewing Lev as family in the way Joel eventually saw Ellie as his daughter. The only disservice to this storyline is that they did not have the amount of time to truly develop the story between Abby/Lev as they did with Joel/Ellie in the first game. Could this be a DLC? Maybe. Not sure where they would actually take it though, let alone fit into the story. I also dont think they have plans for a DLC, as far as I last heard, but who knows. Anyways, just my thoughts... Thanks for the content!
This is one of the best synopses I've seen/heard from someone who admittedly didn't like the story. I'm so glad you articulate that there's a difference between not liking it but it still being pretty well written and executed
This is what the world needs much more of - a level head that can see both sides of the coin. Not just with the Last of Us but pretty much with everything. I see so many just yelling "the best thing ever" or "the worst thing ever" - just black and white. No, reality is so much more complicated than that, this game included. If you don't put a little bit of thought into it, you won't see the entire picture. Really great video review!
I heard both arguments and found that both sides are wrong. People who think the game is flawless are no more right than those who say it is bad. Personally, I did not enjoy it so much due to its presentation. Although the concept was interesting, it just did not end well which is why I think the game isn't so good despite the parts that make it good.
@@infamouscrusader3363 I think if this was a western inspired revenge tale it would have worked better if they had followed totally different people and you know actually got revenge. I definitely thought the writers were trying wayy too hard to be politically correct. No one's playing a video game to be taught moral lessons. No one's wants to play a video game where the whole point is violence is wrong, revenge is wrong. That just makes for a terrible video game. And you have to judge this off not just the story but the fact it is a GAME. Not a book or a movie, it's a violent video game. And that's why people enjoyed the first one. It seems pretty hypocritical of them to make all of their money off being a violent video game and then turn around and beat the players over the head that violence is wrong, revenge is wrong. Sure maybe in the real world but this is a video game. And in a Video game violence is fun, revenge is fun! People play video games to escape the real world. There isn't any room for cautionary morality tales in the franchise of a game known and loved for being violent or in the video game industry at all.
I felt great about this game, so I tried to understand the hates of it so that I could evaluate this game rightfully. I read through a lot of articles to gather thoughts, and eventually crafted a summary for myself for the first time (I never write such a game analysis before, I am just an ordinary player). That summary is awfully written, and I am not content. Here comes this video from you. It is neatly written, the points are justified with evidence and logic, and the messages are clearly delivered. This video is appeasing and enjoyable to watch. Thank you for the great work.
"Don't let them tell you what to think," the best message I got. Sadly, most people take someone else's word immediately and not give an opinion on their own. Well done!
So true. Some people didn’t even purchase the game due to bad reviews saying that they’re so glad they didn’t bought the game and didn’t experience on their own the game and gave bad reply’s like you don’t seriously have to agree with the majority of people’s opinions, either way i think overall it’s a pretty great game
I assume people like that waste their time watching the Quartering and then take his words and plagerize his words to make it sound like it's their opinion instead of coming to their own conclusions.
Ill be honest. This video changed my mind. I like abby even before watching this but i kinda hated how they made the story like how ellie killed everybody except abby but now i get it. Thank you for this, its an eye openner and not just for this game but also on how i perceive other things in life and other games. The story makes so much sense now and personally i find it a masterpiece now. Some people may still hate it but its fine, again we are free to have our own subjective views. I just appreciate the story more now than before, thank you.
you know, i would pat you in the back , because you were willing to reconsider your stance on the game and not hating mindleslly stuck in a loop. :) Im proud of you lol even if i dont know you haha
Knowing the fate of a character, that they're going to die, can serve to heighten tragedy. It's been an effective dramatic tool deployed by the Greeks when they first set their plays down in scrolls. Shakespeare made an entire cottage industry in telling the fate of characters during the introductory monologue. Yet today we find it inconceivable to have things "spoiled". Seeing Mel and Owen very much alive, knowing exactly when is the last moment that Abby speaks to them, knowing what awaits her when she returns to the Aquarium is a good story structure.
Abby has been afraid that Owen was dead ever since she found out that Danny had been killed and Owen was gone. The fear / awareness that Owen might die is a knowledge that the player has, and that Abby herself has deep inside, she simply tries to ignore it.
I adore this game and absolutely love and appreciate this video, you’re approach to the hate and the fact you can dislike something yet appreciate it for what it is. That’s me and hip-hop, can’t stand it, totally respect it. BTW you should watch the kinda funny games video with Neil Druckmann, Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker, some gems in there about the story and intention.
One of the many things I liked in your approach to dissecting and analyzing the story is in bringing up the parallels it has to other classic films and literature: - True Grit - Wuthering Heights There are others begging to be included too, such as the Count of Monte Cristo, in which Edmund Dantes has devoted himself to years of a revenge plot, ingesting increasing doses of poison to build up a tolerance. I see this as similar to Abby's dedication to building up her body to massive proportions, to turn her body into a weapon, a perfect killing machine. And just like with these other revenge tales, Dantes finds his revenge ultimately unfulfilling. TLoU2 can also be viewed as a story that starts out appearing like a revenge story, but is ultimately about how various characters are able to find peace with themselves. As a comparison, Kill Bill starts out as a fun revenge story, but ultimately, once the story reaches Bill, the story is more about reuniting family and earning freedom. It saddens me to see people trying to use Star Wars and MCU as valid comparisons. They're not. Using those examples demonstrates a severe lacking in their literature studies.
My thoughts exactly. There are too many TH-cam reviewers out there who inject overused memes or random TV/movie clips into their video to "support" the points they are trying to make.
Also kudos to you for understanding that a dev doesn't owe anyone their wanted story. The fact that you didn't like TLOU 2 that much but were still able to do this shows immense self-reflection and just understanding. I, personally, loved it because I love stories that make psychological sense and show what unfinished business, past grief/trauma et al can do to you. This is subjective on my part of course, but I don't think it's erroneous to objectively say that ND did a good job with that portrayal. I'm definitely saving this video to reference when I one day post my review.
even though the devs don't owe anyone their wanted story they still need to cater towards the audience otherwise the audience will make their opinions heard through whichever way possible which i'm sure the devs realized even before released date that they made a huge mistake with this game
As a trans person, I thought I'd just toss my two cents into the hat about Lev's story, because why not. I guess I should also preface this by saying I really enjoyed TLOU2's story, some pacing and structure issues aside. The biggest criticism of Lev's part of the story from both trans and Non-Trans people alike, is that the view Lev as just "another trans character put into the story to suffer", but I think writing it off like this is extremely unfair. A lot of this criticism would have stuck with me more if he was a one note character, but in my eyes, Lev is much more than just a trans person along for the ride. I actually think Lev (and Yara, but that's besides the point) are two of the better written new additions to the cast of characters. While Lev does suffer, that doesn't seem out of line to me. The kid was born into and raised by traditionalistic religious cult, of course he's going to suffer due to his gender identity-that's kind of what cults do. I know some people are saying that Lev suffering is pandering, but I'd say that if he didn't suffer or struggle at all, that's what would have really felt like pandering to me. I honestly have no problem with Naughty Dog writing something like this. While yes, Neil Druckmann is is Cis man, I don't think that's an issue if his writing is done tastefully, and in my opinion, it is. If I as an author, can write Cis characters, he should be allowed to write Trans characters, as long as it's done in a tasteful way. [SIDE NOTE: By 'Tasteful' I don't necessarily mean comfortable to watch/read, I mean respectful to the idea of trans people (not falling into the tropes of trans people being predators because they're trans, stuff like that.)] Some people that are criticizing Lev's writing make it seem like outright torture porn, which is just disingenuous. Yes, he's deadnamed by cult members; yes, he's attacked by him own Mother; yes, this is all very uncomfortable to watch. But I think that means it's being done well. It's not hard to watch because it's 'cringy' or bad writing, it's hard to watch because it's accurate. I guess at the end of the day, I'd rather see trans struggles and hardships like Lev's be portrayed in an accurate and realistic manner, than to have swept under the rug with the writing team pretending that everything is fine and dandy all the time. In my opinion, Lev is some of the better trans representation we've gotten in gaming recently, and a lot of that has to do with his interactions with Abby, and how she doesn't expressly bring it up with Lev, and it all flows relatively organically. In fact it's so organic, that there are some people that have played through the game and aren't even entirely aware of the fact that Lev is trans, which I think is a testament to good writing. Obviously this is all my opinion! I would never claim to be able to speak for the entire trans community, just like the greater trans community is unable to speak for me. Everyone can feel differently about this, that's the beauty of opinions.
Thats exactly how I feel about it too. They could have made Lev some 1-D character in passing, but instead they actually put him in the context of that brutal world and what it might be like instead of just checking off some diversity box. Personally I feel like if there was anyone playing that was on the fence or transphobic, they might be more empathetic towards the struggles of trans people in our real world after playing. True equality and representation in a story doesn't mean just having those characters exist in the story or portraying some happy facade, it means actually writing those characters in realistically. TLOU2 has a trans person outed from their religious community for living the life they want to live, as depressing as that is its a pretty common reality for actual trans people in the real world.
Its a complicated, not easy to swallow masterpiece. the fact that it is extremely controversial adds to that, because whoever has played the game has gone through emotions, was immersed in the story and witnessed different perspectives. and however your personal viewpoint of the the whole story is - it makes people discuss basic values of human life. from an artistic point of view: "job" (maybe the better word would be artwork) well done!
Excellent analysis. One thing I would add, in terms of what I think was intent of the writing: the main emotional takeaway for the characters was not meant to be sympathy, but pity. I left the game pitying Abby and Ellie. And I think that distinction between pity and sympathy is a key one when understanding the importance of Abbys role in the game especially. Those who interpret the game as trying to generate the same sympathy for Abby as for Ellie are the ones criticising it, and I don’t think that critique is justified
howardmoon1234 I mean, what are the differences between sympathy, pity, and empathy? They’re really not that different, it’s just that pity has a negative connotation. Not criticizing the game, I love it, but I do still think that the whole point was about having empathy for others and about how you should look at the situation from other people’s perspective’s before blindly hating them.
FelixTwo hey man, I think the key distinction between pity and sympathy is whether you think in their situation you would have done the same thing. If you sympathise, you might think ‘yeah I get why they did that bad thing, and I would probably do the same in their shoes’. Pity is saying, ‘I understand why you did that bad thing but there’s no way I would do it myself, and most people wouldn’t either.’ So people who are annoyed that they had to play as Abby are annoyed because even after a mile in her shoes didn’t agree with her and wouldn’t have done what she did. But I don’t think that annoyance stems from bad writing. My view is it was never the intent of the writing to make you agree with Abby.
21:12 Those people weren't killed by Ellie. The first WLF Ellie killed was Jordan (Scarface), who Abby saw still alive at the Stadium before heading out. While it's possible that some of those were killed by Tommy, I'm guessing that most of those were in fact killed by Scars.
TH-cam recommended this to me because I've been reading a lot on LoU2 after the game. I liked the game. I understood the story. And I was sad to see so many people unable to see my point of view.... this is a beautiful piece. Love your deconstruction of the game. Subscribed to your channel for this type of content. Unique stuff. Would like to see more games/movies and other popular art deconstructed by you.
Glad you enjoyed it! I'll definitely be taking a look at other stories in the future, just have to find the next topic that I can talk about at length.
@@SuggestiveGaming after starting ghost of sushi (a great game still) its hard to think of a story that could provide discussions quite this intruiging but would still love to hear your opinion!
unfortunately I haven’t had much time to play it (and the combat doesn’t really gel with me) so idk if I’ll be making a video on it. thanks so much for the suggestion though
I understand you liking the game people have a right to their own opinion but there is a reason people criticize this game. As I said you have a right to your own opinion but the story doesn't make sense, why would Ellie let Abby go the whole point was to kill her for revenge, also Joel saved abby. What's the point of killing him, it dosent make sense
@@liamkain8691I will try and answer your questions at least what I got from playing the game. The reason Abby went to Jackson was because she was obsessed with killing Joel throughout the game u can see that Abby never surpassed her father's death she continuosly has nightmares about it and it ruined her relationships specially with Owen. By killing Joel she thought she would finally find closure but that doesn't happen instead her nightmares continue and they only disappear after she helps Yara and Let. I think the reason y Ellie let Abby go was because she understood that killing Abby wouldn't have brought her closure. Throughout her journey we can see that she wasn't after Abby because of revenge but instead she felt REGRET. Regret because she pushed Joel away. Her last memory of him is him bleeding but just before she kills Abby she sees Joel alive and playing his gee-tar. It's at this point that she finds some closure . In a way she sees her relationship with Joel in Abby and Lev and she understood that killing her wouldn't have helped her surpass his death the same way that Abby couldn't surpass her father's death by killing Joel. Basically Ellie and Abby are two sides of the same coin. I know this is pretty long but this was what I got from the game but it's all a matter of perspective
The difference between the 1st and the 2nd game is that it is abundantly clear as to why Joel saves Ellie, it’s NOT as clear as to why Ellie spares Abby. The line of demarcation is clearly defined in the 1st and not in the 2nd. That is what makes the 2nd game harder to swallow.
All I can say is this is an incredible video. Had a lot of these same thoughts but couldn't articulate them correctly. Was engaged and eager to keep watching the entire time because of how well spoken you were about the issues and the reactions to "issues"
Neil has said that the team had a large handful of trans people consult with the team and discuss Lev's depiction in great detail in their efforts to be respectful to the trans community
Yup, and the actor who plays Lev (Ian Alexander) is even trans himself. Naughty Dog did a lot to make sure that they were portraying a trans character in the right way.
I did finished the game but still i dont get it very well, my main language is not english but i just love playing in the original language. Is Lev a girl who wants to be a boy?
@@RatedRLoquender Lev is a trans girl. The way you describe would generally be considered offensive/crude, but I realize that’s partially due to a language barrier. So, yes, Lev was basically born a girl and transitioned to being a boy
I would say Ellie really was feeling more guilt and regret when she was chasing abby for not mending things with joel and didnt know how to handle all of that until she learns forgiveness and closure. She can also get back with Dina and have a future. The ending and game was amazing and also, THANK YOU for finally offering a real review without butchering the story even if i disagree with your personal opinion on it. Yours and girlfriend reviews are the best.
I really enjoyed your story analysis. The analysis of Joel's guitar playing almost made me cry. You helped me understand a lot. Thank you very much. Many people in South Korea are criticizing The Last of Us Part 2, and I was surprised. It's a little funny to find that South Korea is criticizing similar parts. I really liked this word on your TH-cam. "if video games are art, as many claim they should be recognized as, then we need to treat them as such." "Art is meant to be observed and interpreted personally." Now I realize that games are really art.
Your final thoughts section is so ON POINT! Its what i have been saying for years! You can objectively critique everything, and just because you dont like something that doesnt mean its objectively bad, the same way that if you do like it, it doesnt mean its objectively good. A lot of people fail to understand this, especially when it comes to writing/stories.
I honestly prefer this game, the story is much more interesting, there are a few things I’d change but I still love what naughty dog is trying to tell.
I don't think it's the better game, but it's certainly more impactful. I can't stop thinking about this shit. I haven't played anything for days, because every other game looks so "mundane" right now, and that's something that just the first Dark Souls was able to do to me. Sure there are several problems, but what ND does right, they're the best at doing it. Period. Right now tlou3 looks like a sure thing, I cannot wait to see what new theme they will come with. I just hope Amy Hennig is back to nd or Neil Druckmann just let someone else write it.
Even though Joel physically dies in the beginning I think Ellie is metaphorically dead by the end of it. It was all for nothing, and she did end up alone; her worst fear. I know people hate this outcome but it’s very poetic and powerful, like a cautionary tale. No one won.
Yeah and another thing to think about is how, if Ellie didn’t go after Abby in the end, karma might of killed her. Abby was about to die on the beach until Ellie technically saved her. She didn’t attack right away cause she probably saw her defeated in that moment
Abby won, she got revenge, got saved by the person whose life she destroyed and gave PTSD, ends up with Lev and gets to start a new life free of any charges.
@@robr9105 And that is exactly what completly demolishes the point of the game, cause if revenge is bad how exactly is it that revenge is exactly what saves Abby (both Abby revenge on Joel and ellie's revenge on Abby). Its a stupid story, trying to paint it as philosophical is just a shallow way to defend bad writting. The thing has 388 plot conviniences or more (it starts with the mother of them, with Joel simply stumbling on Abby) and undermines its own point when the one not seaking revenge in the beggining ends with absolutly nothing, and emotional wreck and without carrying out revenge, and the one that starts the whole thing ends with everythign she could possibly end with and is even saved by the person whose life she wrecked.
DakonBlackblade2 she still paid the price after she killed Joel by losing her friends. Ellie might of lost more but life doesn’t balance stuff like that. It’s just the way it is
DakonBlackblade2 I like it. I thought it played out realistically. Honestly, if I was Ellie, I would of let the whole thing go completely. But if I did get to the point of killing Abby, I’d probably let her live too. That’s just me as a person and lots of people just won’t understand. I think that’s what is causing lots of controversy. Cause people are different and this story kinda exposes the difference in personality of people. I don’t believe in revenge. But sometimes you can be blinded by it, right up to the point where you realize it wasn’t worth it.
The 12 hours of Abby felt like a dlc in my opinion. Like her half of the game was completely disconnected from Ellie’s half. I’d either have the game switch between the characters on a day to day basis or have Abby’s half more involved with Ellie’s. Perhaps have her realize the girl from Jackson is back killing her friends, have her mourn them and have her seemingly taken over by revenge only to once again show mercy. Lev can be her beacon of light through her mourning. The entire ‘Abby is such a good person’ concept was way too on the nose for me. I also don’t find her relationship with Lev growing so quickly believable.
I am pretty sure that was the intention. They wanted you to spend the whole 10 hours with Abby, instead of switching from one character to another. They wanted you to dive into her life. Not to mention that it would have been very much disjointed if they wanted to tell the story that way.
Oh man, I will use your video in every TLOU2 conversation I'm having, you managed to build very structured argument instead of chaotic swarm of thoughts I had after finishing the game. Thank you for you work with this, I bet it will be wildly underestimated for quite some time, before the heads are cooler
I just want to say that Joel knew he was going to die because he killed a lot of people. Also I think the pointed of this game story is " Revenge is never bitter sweet"
God, I'm so, SOOO glad someone made a video like this. A full thought, during more than 12 minutes. I personally loved the story, and people just have to stop saying that something is bad written just cause you don't like how it went. Thank you man, you're the really the first one to bring some objective and good analysis to this game.
I'm grateful too because I love the game and the story made sense to me. When I beat TLOU1 I didn't think they'd make a sequel but if they did I knew Joel had to died. Ellie says to Dina in Seattle that "Joel crossed a lot of people". I hope we get a TLOU3. If they keep this release schedule up I'll be freaking 40 when/of it comes out 😭
well, I totally agree that sth isn't bad written just cause most people didn't like it. However, it's a video game, so it's supposed to make us have fun and enjoy it and the way they made us play (for at least 10 hours) as the character who killed Joel (and not killing her in the end) doesn't help with that
Maybe if you stopped seing Abby as "the character that killed Joel" you'd have a better time, you can't just disregard a character because you don't like them
I wasn't a big fan of the story either but I appreciated the risks it was trying to take... kinda reminded me of The Last Jedi in that respect... it wasn't for me in the end but it tried to switch things up and I can respect it for that
THANK YOU! Like at least we have a developer that takes risks. If devs just gave what the fans demand, its fan service with no integrity. I didnt like Last Jedi mainly because I thought it was boring. Yet, I still respected they did something new. I actually did love TLOU 2 but totally understand those that didnt.
I have to respectfully disagree. This game, as unique as it is, is not comparable to the LJ in any way. This game tried something new and it was effective. The LJ was a mess that had no goal, no vision, and was a shell of a long lost idea.
Except no country for old men is well structured and doesnt leave you hanging for 10 hours, you actually get to like and understand every character and its way easier to digest than the last of us 2. Havent watched hell or high water tho. Believe me, No country is my favorite movie after Interstellar and I can tell that tlou2 was prtty badly structured. I didnt give a damn about Joel dying before I saw how he died, I thought that his death would be more meaningfull throughout the story and more beautifully impactfull, but it got the impact element in a very unpleasant way. The timing of his death and part of his limbs almost hanging, his skull deformed, were things we didnt have to see, yet they showed them to us, take Lee's death for example he was incapable of doing anything and he died off screen as far as i remember and it made a very iconic death in the walking dead.
@@giomr7923 llewelyn's death in No country wasn't pleasant or held a beautiful impact. It held the same impact as Joel's. It's impact was reality. You don't get to pick your death, nor it's time or place. I like that this game didn't follow a fantasy setting where a, "Hero" gets to live or even die in noble fashion. Unpleasant was the point. It shows the realism of the world they live in. Just because someone dies tragically or horribly doesn't take from their story. It's sad and hurts but it doesn't make them or their story less. It's makes for a real one. IF I go over seas and die horribly, (I hope not), does that make my story less?
GioMR79 This is a massive gripe I have with the game. Having that random NPC spit on Joel to top it all off gives the impression that the game wants you to celebrate his death. Joel may be a flawed hero but he’s done enough good in people’s lives to warrant a better death at least. He didn’t just act as Ellie’s surrogate Dad in the middle of a raging apocalypse, he also taught his brother how to survive and raised him. Yet another person that owes Joel for being taught how to survive the nightmare they’re all in.
@@iwantgoals1566 Except that they expand upon that "NPC's" story massively, I would actually call Manny the second most likable character of that group (behind Owen). Him spitting on Joel isn't meant to make us celebrate his death, on the contrary, it's suppose to make us feel disgusted with this group, before we get their back stories and motivations. "Flawed hero" is a charitable interpretation of Joel in the first game. Just considering the ending, he went on a murderous rampage, killing dozens of people including Abby's dad, in order to save someone that did not want to be saved. Ellie WANTED to die, even if just for the CHANCE of finding a cure. You can find his motivations compelling or sympathetic, but to call them heroic is just delusional. Tommy partially HATES Joel in the first game for his actions prior to the game, stating how those actions gave him "nothing but nightmares" and how their survival "wasn't worth it". He learns to forgive Joel as he sees him become a better person through his relationship with Ellie, but to say his actions were admirable is laughable
This review was fantastic. Completely unbiased and honest. I will agree that there are parts about the game I didn’t enjoy, but I honestly think the game is a 10 out of 10. I thoroughly enjoyed playing the game. It’s gorgeous. It’s brutal. It’s honest. And it’s terrifyingly real. I loved this review and it hits a lot of very valid points right on the head. Gg, man. I loved watching this review.
I just finished the game! Overall, no surprise, I had a great time. I think it took 15 or 16 hours. (I also wanted to comment on how great this video is. Great unbiased thoughts. Well placed humor. Great editing. Wonderful voice.) Nothing new there though ;)
Going into the game I did hear remnants of how people were reacting to spoilers, but it never really impacted me much. Obviously, people on the internet tend to overreact. So much so that I had to ask which part they overreacted to. I didn’t realize I had even played it.
Some of the pacing, as you mentioned, was off-putting. Though, it wasn't nearly to any point where it was unenjoyable. I just have trouble when stories take a step back to go back in time and show more pieces to the puzzle. If it’s told well, it works. I think in this case it does. It’s good, but not great. The story reaches this huge climax where Ellie and Abby finally meet. Then it just slows down taking almost 5-10 hours of play through to reach that point again. During those 5-10 hours I think what carried me through the most was introducing Lev and Yara, expanding on the WLF and Seraphite world building, and some of the cool game sequences. Like walking along the cranes from building to building. I like Abby’s story, but like you said if they told the story with a continuing timeline jumping from Abby to Ellie I think it would have worked much better.
I don’t think you play as Abby to feel bad for her. I think there’s also a hint of Abby being a bad person, excluding her killing of Joel, in the same realm of Joel. During the early part of the Abby side of the playthrough - Manny, Mel, and Abby are talking about how there used to be a truce with the Seraphites and WLF until some kids were shot. When Mel defends the children Abby claims she's okay with them being shot. When Abby takes in Lev and Yara there’s quite a bit of questioning for why she helps them. Mel claims Abby is helping them to reconcile for something she straight up calls Abby shitty. When Yara and Lev ask why Abby is helping them Abby responds with something like, “I have too.” I wouldn’t be surprised if we learn that Abby was in the WLF party that shot the Seraphite kids. Maybe Issac wanted a war and had Abby do his dirty work during an extra assignment. Though I guess that’s just speculation, so it’s neither here nor there.
I do like the idea of thinking twice before killing the enemy. Killing zombos, I’ll do that all day. I found myself not killing people most of the time. The game humanizing each group of people by Abby’s perspective with the WLF and Lev’s perspective with Seraphites, people screaming their friends' names when they die, and seeing characters you killed as Ellie show up in Abby’s retelling of the story led me to thinking twice. In the Last of Us 1 you seem influenced by how Joel might think at the time. Just killing everyone, no questions. In this game I think the player is influenced by how Ellie might think. Feeling sorry for killing people. Who knows. I also just liked being to be like, forget these people and this segment, and just sprint past everyone lol.
The gameplay itself was alright for the most part. It’s naughty dog. What I didn’t like was running and jumping gaps, which was absolute shit for me most of the time. Also, silent takedowns were so repetitive. Strangle people and they gargle x1000. The only way it was different was that Ellie or Abby would say something different when they did it. It was so repetitive that I just stopped doing it. Some of the puzzles were fun, like when you have to jam the dumpster under the garage door before it closed. That was kind of cool.
My favorite mission for the gaming experience was either the crane bridge mission or storming the Seraphite island. My favorite missions for story telling were the ones with little combat or the ones that just went back in time. My least favorite was when Ellie first got to Seattle. Opening gates and aimlessly riding a horse around was kind of boring. It seemed like a traveling portion of the game they could have skipped.
The ending’s meaning and story point I like. I didn’t want Abby to die. When Ellie was holding Abby under water I found myself saying, “Don’t do it!” The only thing I didn’t like about the ending was the setting and this random new group in Santa Barbra. I just felt no connection to it. It was just a strange setting for the ending to take place.
These are just my initial thoughts =)
Okay but there’s no way it took 15-16 hours. The game takes 20 hours minimum to play-
@@kimberly8040 yeah i took 22 hours, he must've missed a LOT
@@kimberly8040 definitely >20h ..my first playthrough was 33h 44m ..my second was around 31h ..my third was around 25h... anyway... this video was rather refreshing
@Kimberly my game says 15 hours and 2 minutes - I watched all the cutscenes and read a fair amount of the journal notes. imgur.com/a/NbMl8yA
@@xlAdvancedlx Wow, that was fast! I played it a second time (with almost no looting and already knowing where to go) and it took me 19 hrs!
I love how Tommy literally can't die in this game.
man is also a sniper god lol
Idk about you guys but it really hit me how much of an effect Ellie’s initial anger had on Tommy. Her determination almost forced his hand, when leaving. He wanted revenge I’m sure, but his efforts felt more to protect Ellie, at first. But the back story to Joel and the mark his teachings left on Tommy really started to show. And when he was angry at Ellie for giving up, it broke my heart. He was always the one trying to do the right thing and to see him caught in the very same cycle, reliving some of the shit he and Joel has to go through.. shit fucked me up man.
Possibly someone or someone's relative from the development team. Literally the MVP of the whole series
n8brez lmaooooo I get it cuz he looks like the sniper guy in the Abby section
@@VincentVincent_89 it is Tommy lol watch videogamedunkey's review. That part really got me, started to empathize Abby more
Crazy thing is....I truly believe Ellie did have a happy ending, we just missed the clues... another TH-camr commented on the letter you find at the farm when you are with Dina and the baby. It's from the baby's father's mom saying they will always have a place in Jackson if they choose to come back home. And, if you notice.....when Ellie leaves to fight Abby at the end....she's not wearing the bracelet Dina gave her....but when she returns...the camera zooms in on her hand ...we were focused on the fingers missing but looked completey passed the fact that now she is wearing the bracelet, possibly meaning she has already been to Jackson...and is living with Dina......she just went back to the farm for the guitar....but decided to leave it. That represents her finally being able to accept Joel's death and end the cycle of revenge.
Here's some more things to back this claim......
1. When she comes back to the farm...she's not hurt or not wearing any of her weapons.
2. She doesn't seem surprised that everyone is gone when she enters the house. She doesn't call out Dina's name or anything.
I think people were so caught up in "Revenge" that they missed all of these details.
I wish I could remember the TH-camrs name who pointed the letter and the bracelet out but sadly I don't remember... he/she is the real hero.....I just added more context and details to back their theory.
OH SHIT!! Good catch!
Actually never thought about it like that thanks!
never thought bout that..what i expected was Ellie was shock to see the house was empty and she found a letter from Dina but she looks calm..now it makes sense
I like this one a lot. I thought that when Ellie went back to the farm, Ellie realized she shouldn’t have left. Ellie to me was overwhelmed with emotions that she became stale like a dry carrot. Then in the end Ellie heads off to a new journey that could be part 3
Too bad the fanbase is too immature to understand that
Imagine getting to the end of a video game or a scene and thinking, “I’m going to send a death threat to the voice actor and creators of this fictional game”
Yikes. Talk about pathetic.
Look at who the current president is and then it all starts to make sense.
Let’s be real. The people doing this never played the game.
Marvelous Meh couldn’t have said it better
@@Frodo_Shaggins no, don't send death threats because a story didn't go the way you wanted. How stupid can you be?
The people going out of their way to harass the cast and devs, did not play the game. I had a back and forth with a bloke on twitter, and he said the story was dumb and the sjw angle was forced. I asked for his PSN name to verify that he did play and finish the game, but apparently watching a stream is the same as playing the game to him.
ellie: loses everything and everyone she loves in her quest for revenge
also ellie: collects 48 trading cards along the way 😉
Small price to pay, for trading cards
If they're there why not lol
She didn't really lose everything that was Abby. She is wearing Dina's bracelet implying she has already been back to Jackson to talk to Dina. She has Tommy Dona Maria and the baby. Abby just has Lev.
The real revenge was the trading cards we collected along the way.
Definitely worth it!
I think it was a big missed opportunity that Lev didn’t beg for Abby’s life at the end paralleling Ellie begging for Joel’s life at the start. It would’ve made Ellie sparing Abby a bit more understandable because Ellie would have seen that she was essentially Abby at that moment since she had gone all the way to Santa Barbara for revenge just as Abby had gone to Jackson for hers and that she was about to kill someone’s loved one.
Actually, while fighting against Abby, you can hear Lev trying to call for her (though extremely subtle) but how he is barely conscious he can't do anything about it.
I think that it's ok that Lev don't beg, it makes the whole situation even harder for Ellie but still she's able to manage it and gain her humanity.
Wow, that would have fixed the ending for me, honestly. I loved most of the game and didn't agree with most of the criticism it's been getting, but the resolution to the final fight felt a bit... rushed? It just didn't make much sense to me that she would change her mind so much LITERALLY at the last second. Showing that parallel between Lev and Ellie would have pushed the idea of the unending cycle of revenge foward, with Ellie deciding to break it. Another option would be for her to flash through images of everything this quest has lost her: Jesse, Tommy, Dina, JJ. All that to show the player that Ellie realizes that this revenge that she's lost so much for wasn't worth it
@@tigerguy529 I don't think it was a choice that came outwhere. After Ellie came from Seattle and started to live on the farm. Revenge itself wasn't only thing that was driving her to find Abby but more than that it was a sense of closure. She started to see the futility of revenge after she killed Mel.
@@ash9280 I don't think that's represented very well in the story. Sure, she's distraught when she finds out Mel was pregnant, but nothing in the game shows her thinking about that again, or motivating her in any way
The way I see it, no one wanted to play a sequel, they wanted to play the first one again...thats exactly how it would have felt with Joel and Ellie together on a mission again.
That ended the moment Joel lied to Ellie. We were never going to have that father/daughter bond and journey again.
@@RenegadeJames It would have been the same, just swapped...this time Ellie would be the one hardened and Joel would have been the one trying to bond.
@@MadSkillz76 People are used to the characters that they play being immortal. The way that this game managed to allow the mortality of so many characters that you play, starting with the main character of part 1, is a new and unsettling experience. I remember during the buildup of Abby's character leading up to the scene where they will meet and fight, I was hoping that I would be controlling Ellie and dreading the idea that I would be controlling Abby. I've never seen this done in a game before.
In the last fight, when I finally am controlling Ellie, I no longer wanted her to kill Abby but I thought she was going to.
That's a good point, dude.
@@MadSkillz76
That would have been cringy and boring TBH. This world that naughty dog created is really fascinating and I want to see them continue to branch out. I'd honestly like to see all new characters with new perspectives for a third game.
Something no one talk about is , Ellie literally saves abby, if ellie had given up and enjoyed life with dinah, abie would have died!!. She saved abby
That’s so true. I’ve never heard anyone mention this in any discussion
Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. Her act of mercy saves her. If she kills Ellie in Jackson, she'll likely either die in the WLF attack on the Island or give in and go to Santa Barbra with Owen where they'll die.
If she kills her in Seattle....well yeah she's 100% dead. Her act of mercy and breaking the cycle ultimately saves her.
The game depicts some strange though realistic ironies throughout the narrative's course including somewhat unpredictable consequences, mixed in with quick shifts between motivations allowing characters to become either savior or villain in any instance. For example, Jordan tries to save Ellie from being murdered in order to extract information. He is later murdered by Ellie after Dina kills his compatriot and she is attacked by Jordan. Joel helps Abby and is later killed by Abby who also prevents her friends from murdering Ellie and Tommy. Owen becomes the most ardent and vocal proponent of not killing Ellie and Tommy, yet he is later killed by Ellie. And then Ellie saves Abby at the end only to force Abby to fight for her life and the life of her friend Lev. Ellie withdraws from that pursuit allowing Abby and Lev to escape the labor camp and her vengeance. These dynamics, to me, make the story rather interesting and compelling.
Yeah, that was the irony. At first i wished the game had ended at the farm with Dina and Ellie and I was raging with Ellie for leaving. But I now know that if she hadn't left, Abby and Lev would have died on the pillars and the slaves would still be captives.
Also Ellie wanted to kill Abby herself, she mentions one or two times throughout the game that she hopes that Abby hasn't been killed by a random infected
Something that I wanna add is that a lot of people like to talk about how "Ellie kills so many people yet when he finds Abby's friends she suddenly feels bad for what she does? bad writing" but I feel like people miss the point in a lot of these encounters, the reason why Ellie's mental state gets worse every time she finds one of her targets its because they have something that affects her personally, for example Nora makes Ellie question about how many people died because of what Joel did, and Ellie gets mad not because this is new information to her, but because that is the same reason she got mad at him and makes her remember that Joel was flawed and did awful things, the next death is Owen and Mel, when Ellie finds out Mel was pregnant I think it makes her hyperventilate because Dina also has a baby, finding out this similarities between the people who she loves and those who she kills makes her sick at the feeling that she may be becoming the person who she is trying to destroy.
Or at least that is the way I interpret it, something I have always loved about TLOU series is how the characters never tell you how and why they feel certain things, so its up to you to decide.
That's not the bad writing part of it. That's good. Ellie regrets and questions what she's doing. She breaks down, mentally, after every kill (in the cut scenes). They make her doubt what she is doing is worth it. Then finally, evolves enough to let it go, of all the hate and revenge after killing Owen and Mel. She's humanized and you're able to sympathize with her.
The bad writing part is that the game wants you to humanized and sympathize with Abby. But in my opinion, does a poor job of it. Her WLF friends are sorta one dimensional. You already know the fate of the ones she's close to, so you're already at a place of caring very little to make a connection to them, even if they were fleshed out. The game could have told the same story out of order and built these relationships up to make them matter...but too late for that. Her relationship and history with Owen make her friendship with Mel shakey to begin with, and then having sex with him while fully knowing he's with someone else and starting a family shows that she really didn't care for Mel. Then there's him pointing out that Lev told Abby to spare Dina...leaving out the part where Abby said "Good" as in she would be satisfied in her action of about to kill a pregnant woman. Kind of a big point to leave out to try and justify Abby's growth and ability to empathize. The only growth Abby experience is connecting to Lev and Yara...which I felt rushed. She didn't care about all the people she killed during the skirmishes between the WLF or the Seraphites, past or present. No remorse of betraying her friends. No internal conflict of leaving behind the life she had in Washinton.
She got her revenge on Joel. Betrayed her friends and the WLF. Lost Owen, which it seemed like the only friend she cared about losing, but was losing him anyway due to the way his story was being told. Abby lost nothing, directly, and satisfied her revenge. Whereas Ellie, let go of her revenge but lost everything in her life. She had empathy and consciousness of what she had done and stopped in her pursuit of revenge twice because of it. Only continuing cause of the PDST she thought she could cure by revenge. Ellie's story is told with realistic and good writing (minus some cringy dialogue) and delivers the message this video is analyzing. Abby's story kinda undercuts that by showing, nah you can have your cake and eat it too.
That said, the game should still be played if fan of the first one. Graphics, almost a 10/10. Gameplay, 8.5/10. Story...that's what makes this game around a 6.5-7/10.
I would also like to add that in their last confrontation with Abby, Ellie has seen Abby taking care of Lev the same way Joel took care of Ellie in the first game. She must have realized that killing Abby would rob Lev of his parental figure which is exactly what Abby did to her in the beginning of the game by killing Joel. If Ellie went through with it and killed Abby, I think she would never be able to forgive herself after realizing what she has become to avenge Joel even though Joel would have never wanted to her to risk her life and others' for that purpose. I think the way the game builds up to that moment in the end by drawing a lot of parallels between each side of the conflict and Ellie ultimately deciding to let go is the crowning achievement of this game and what makes this particular revenge story so good.
@@weaverquest lol no, ellie didn't care about their relationship, she even threatens to kill lev if abby would refuse to fight with her, had she realized what you're saying earlier she would've let them go immediately but no, she didn't.
yup! there are so many subtle details in the game that were meant to show you that ellie is getting worse with every person she kills. and also, if all a person got from this game is that "kILLiNg iS bAd" then i am truly sorry that they missed the entire point of the game
vltRakuen No. Please read the first reply made to this comment. It gives more critical analysts towards the more bad part of the writing aspect. Most people would agree that it’s the portrayal of Abby’s character development that doesn’t justify not killing her.
The parallel with Abby and lev is that Abby couldn't let go "it's a lead I've got to follow it up" and that of course ended with the deaths of her friends and family, lev couldn't let go of his desire to change the opinions of the seraphites his mother in particular and that led to the deaths of both his mother and his sister yara, both of them obsessed over things that couldn't be changed instead of valuing what they already had and it cost them everything. The same with Ellie's side of the story all of these characters were obsessed
A wonderful perspective!
One of the main themes is addiction/obsession. Dina’s struggle with Ellie at the end is realising that this addict could still sink deeper. I feel like playing through this as an addict might be quite powerful as it repeatedly displays the self-destructive patterns of an addict and how the likes of Abby, Ellie and Tommy systemically ruin their relationships through their obsession. Lev is the exact same thing, Yara was the one that recognised that his obsession needed to be dropped and even though this obsession was a lot less negative in theory, it still led to the destruction of everyone around Lev (his mum and Yara). In other words, I think this is spot on!
TLOU2 is GOTY in 2020 tLou 1
So just let go? Forgive and forget, move on, who cares. I mean if that’s the games message then sure that’s fine, though it’s one that we have heard numerous times, and a message that goes back centuries. I personally don’t think that this message needed to be told via TLOU’s franchise. It brutally dismembered many of the beloved characters in this game for what comes down to a very elementary story theme. IMO, they should have told this story in a different, brand new game. It would have at least made the experience somewhat enjoyable
@@shaqman1579 Wow, dude. I can't believe you didn't watch this video. I mean, kuddos to your opinion, you deserve a medal
Wait wait wait, I just realize during the game a character got shot in his hand fight against scars playing as Abby and Owen or someone was like “good thing you only need three fingers am I right” then my girl loses her two .
Well she doesn't need em anyway. Not sure if these moments are actually a connection or not but it is ironic at the very least.
Jovany Hamilton Same with how Joel said that when seeing the dinosaurs, one in particular reminded him of Tommy’s thick skull.
This was a throwaway comment from Manny at the Base before him and Abby travel to the FOB, I thought it was a wierd ancient proverb I'd never heard before but it existed to just be foreshadowing.
It was Manny doing a sex joke
Gmail User you have to be taking the piss right ?
This video essay is a master class. For the duration, I was engaged and even eager because I was so captivated by your clear editing and focus on the elements of the story. You did an amazing job.
Well said sir couldn't agree more.
Ben Prasifka he DID AN INCREDIBLE JOB
I agree
The way he spoke about the games more sensitive themes and subjects was perfect. It does kind of weave between a summary and analysis though, where I was looking for more analysis. Nonetheless a very good video!
I think they considered it, but wanted Ellie to realize it herself by using the flashback of Joel. The driving force of Ellie letting Abby go coming from her i
own realization is more powerful than Lev begging her to stop.
As for the issues with Lev and his overtly traumatic story, I think it was mostly in place so that you as Abby had a Really good reason to make sure he was looked after. Lev becomes an instrumental motivator for Abby. She becomes all he has, and his approval and what he's already been through motivates her to let Ellie go. Inevitably, its her relationship with Lev, Her need to protect him because he's had such a rough go, and that evident love and devotion that Ellie see's in her as a reflection of Joel and herself in the end battle that not only convinces Ellie to let her go to protect Lev, but was the catalyst that let her finally bury her guilt about Joel, forgive him, forgive Abby and herself all in those final moments. If you're needing purpose to levs struggles beyong (Lifes tough and bad things happen to good people) I think Lev's purpose as a character is only evident when you see how important and familiar that pairing is, and the effect seeing it has on Ellie.
Very well said, I agree wholeheartedly.
So would you say Abby wouldn't have a moral code if it wasn't for lev?
@@Mariomario-gt4oy this is a very well known psychological phenomenon, We see ourselves reflected in those we love. We refine our behaviour based on the reflections we see of ourselves in others... Empathy, accountability... Not new concepts, but occasionally poignant reminders.
@@Mariomario-gt4oy would joel have a moral code if it wasnt for ellie?
@@skrtskrt4413 Absolutely agree with you.. Joel would be a brutal asshole without Ellie.
"Revenge is a fools game" - Arthur Morgan
Tell that to John Marston on epilogue and Entire rdr1, and to his son, Jack for rdr3
Bab C The revenge John gets in the epilogue is the catalyst for the entirety of the first game and his eventual fate, as it leads the Marshalls right to him. So yes, revenge is definitely a fools game.
@@thesizzaman yes, but the point that the red dead series is full of revenge tropes should not go ignored. It should not go ignored that most of Arthur's missions in game involve some form of revenge. Although I love rdr2 more than tlou2, I can still admit that where revenge is concerned, rdr2 is an advent of hypocrisy and tlou2 is grounded more in the message that was actually preached by Arthur.
@@shanustheanus I don't necessarily disagree, however I find the two quite hard to compare in terms of their thematic framing. If the main theme of RDR2 is Arthur's journey of redemption, TLOU2's running theme is finding the will to move forward, the ability to let someone live who wronged you, in order to save oneself. The mistakes Joel made are repeated by Ellie until that last choice. If she killed Abby, his death becomes meaningless for her growth. Abby experienced this too when she let Ellie and Dina live, despite all they had done to her. While revenge is a motivator in both games, it's never the soul.
What do you think?
The last mission of red dead was killing micah.. taking revenge for aurther's death.
23:54 btw Lev's actor is actually trans. I think he had some input on what the character should be like, like they did with Bill on the first game (not sure if the actor is gay, but he had input on that choice regarding to the character)
If anyone has watched the OA he is the actor who plays the trans character Buck (right?)
@@borrrden yeh. Correct.
Actually Lev was not trans, but Naughty dog wanted to fit a diversity quota and so Lev was a good candidate for a trans character as Neil hadn’t figured out his motivation for leaving the island yet.
Harpreet Mangat i love it when people bring up the “forced diversity” thing, are you aware that LGBT+ people like . . . exist in real life? it’s not something that just exists in video games, is it so hard to believe that a type of person who exists in real life would show up in a video game?
@@ashai5989 Both Ellie being lesbian and Lev being trans actually works with their motivations, so I don't think anybody should be mad at that to be honest. Making Riley Ellie's first love instead of "just" her bestfriend made it much more impactful, and Lev being trans I don't even need to point it out :P
Let’s get something straight here. Joel was not the one that said “let’s stop and help the desperate family with a kid”. Joel is the one that said *“F*ck em, we got our own problems”.* We all love Joel because we saw the hell he went through and we went through it with him, but he was not a hero, he was in many respects a bad guy who just happened to find someone who brought out the last bit of humanity he had.
Dan Bad Guy’s actions can be justified. There are a lot of bad things that Joel does that can be justified through his loss but they are bad things nonetheless. You could justify him killing the Doctor with his unbreakable bond with Ellie but at the end of the day he did not need to kill the Doctor and it was a rash decision that was going to have repercussions.
Yes but boiling Joel down to just a "bad guy" doesn't do him justice at all. If Joel is abad guy then so are the fireflies and every other group in the apocalypse. The only group I'd say you could make a case for being truly bad or evil were the cannibals.
jayyTeęe s Even if you consider Joel an anti-hero, that doesn’t justify his nonsensical death in this story. Think about it like this; the Joker is one of the most beloved characters in all of comic book history, yet he is by all means a deranged, psychotic, sadistic killer. Now, let’s imagine for a second that DC decides to kill off the Joker. They could have the Joker be gunned down in the middle of the street by some random police officer who has been hunting him down for the last 5 years. You could argue that that would be a realistic death for this serial killer, but I promise you fans would be in an outrage, because that death thematically doesn’t make sense. Rival this scenario with the way the Joker was killed in the comic, the killing Joke. The joker, after taking everything from Batman, in one last sadistic act, manages to make Batman laugh at one of his jokes. The symbolizes the Joker finally breaking Bruce Wayne, as he laughs maniacally before breaking Jokers neck. That death symbolizes everything the Joker was about, and is a fitting death for horrible, yet beloved character. Yeah you could argue maybe the first example was more realistic, but the second was much more impactful
Hi the point is that while Joel isn’t the worst kind of person, he’s not one of the good ones. Examine Joel’s actions throughout part 1 and you’ll notice that a lot of what he does is for himself. Compare that to someone like Lee Everett from TWD game, Lee was a selfless person. His actions echoed moral righteousness and so he earned a gratifying death. Like I said, we all love Joel, we routed for him but not because what he did was right but because we understood him. Joel isn’t the kind of character that gets a gratifying death, he wronged a lot of people in some of the worst ways and unlike someone like Arthur Morgan from RDR2 he never tried to redeem himself from those wrongs except when it was for Ellie. Like it or not he was always going to see the consequences.
Afro Shinobi when I say “In many respects he is a bad guy” what I mean is he is a bad guy in the eyes of many people. Through our eyes and Ellie’s eyes he’s perceived as the hero of the story but to many others, including Abby, he’s the psycho who killed a doctor and deprived the world of a vaccine that could’ve put humanity back on track and let’s face it, he kinda was.
"Just because you don't like something or it wasn't what you expected, it doesn't make it objectively bad." That's It.
Yeah but the thing is the game was objectively bad
Kg the almighty the game was amazing dumb ass 🤣
@@K.Gthealmighty how? There are many people who love the game and many people who hate it, how the hell does that make it objectively bad?
M.M whether there are people who like the game or not doesn’t matter there are many things this game did objectively bad that this video failed to cover.
Kg the almighty Like what?
(Trans guy here, lol) Lev killing his mother was part of the conversation of his being trans. You learn that he still has a great attachment to his group, religion, and his mother. The fact that they betray him is surprising and hurtful, but he still expects his mother to love him because she is his Mother. All of the trauma he experiences, including the incidental killing of his mother, is him being forced by society to reevaluate his relationship to every other aspect of his being, of which his closest relationships are not exempt. Transphobia OFTEN in real life forces trans people to push away those they love most and who they feel emotionally obligated to.
However, this also becomes part of the backlash from the LGBTQ community. There was a WHOLE LOT of disappointment that Lev’s birth name is even mentioned, and the excessive trauma that he undergoes caused TLOU2 to be deemed “trans abusive” (but not necessarily transphobic). I personally find some forgiveness because trans representation is incredibly needed and important in the game industry. Lev is also one of the most developed side characters in the entire game, and embodies the humanity that Abby must seek out. On top of that, you are encouraged to kill the transphobic enemies, and I happily did so.
I didn’t catch that. Well put. I Thought about the name “Lily” and the fact the he was expected to wife some of the island’s elders just made total sense now. Thanks
I thought the point was that you aren't supposed to be happy about killing people period. Because ultimately transphobic people are ignorant or are victims of propaganda. Dead naming is wrong and a form of torture if deliberately done to cause Lev to suffer but I fail to see why the dead naming is an issue if the literal disembowelment of people from other religions isn't. Both clearly aren't endorsed by the video game so the giant fuss about seems pretty dumb.
Real talk: as soon as I heard a Scar yell, “you can’t run from us Lilly.” I immediately said, “oh they’re fucking dead.”
Loved Lev, he’s such a great character.
While I’m not trans or have had any real communication with the LGBTQ community, I found that whole interaction really enlightening; it made me realize how cruel society can be to trans (and other LGBTQ in general) and really made me sympathize with Lev.
@@chrissolace It may not have been a really important game to people in the trans community but surely for those who are not. Empathy goes a long way.
There's intelligent life playing this game afterall. Completely agree with you.
Exactly man I was getting so tired of people just dissing the game because Joel died smh. Luckily there are a few people who actually appreciate the messages the story was meant to send
^^
I disagree. It feels like the ones who often say it isn't as bad or its good don't know what it means to be in a fandom or what video gaming means as a hobby.
It is that lack of consideration and selfish denial that made the players angry. Not some cutscene to a video game, or else we would have many cases of this happening.
It is that inhumane behavior that players try to correct and thusly punish people for.
Understand both cases be willing to stand with those whom you agree with. Because in the end I still share drinks with liberals even though I'm a conservative. I still buy dinner for Christians when I myself am Catholic.
But this....this is handing me a bone and ensuring I don't grow myself as a person because others decided to be angry for me. To act out in my place.
As an lgbtq I have my own goals and life. I do not wish for others to control me for it nor scorn me for how I choose to live.
Consideration. People need to practice more morals because this is getting disgusting that it never crossed your minds to try to understand us as the 1st fandom and what we feel.
Ppl. Just wanted the game to fail! 1st. It was a SJW agenda then ND bad working conditions,then the leaks (transexual kills Joel) ,then Abby is to big , why did they kill Joel so early ,oh the “kiss” ! There are players who loved the TLOU1 gameplay but the TLOU2 gameplay is garbage .I mean ppl. are just sheeps ,looking to much on ratings of others !
I loved the 1st game , i love the 2nd its one of the best games this generation
Remedy4theheart you just said a whole lotta nothing. Sounded like a long winded fortune cookie
Before dissecting Ellie's brain which would eventually kill her, most practical and humane thing to do would be waking her up and take her consent. She Would be very happy to make the sacrifice and even could convince Joel of it avoiding all the mascaras.
SalmanKarim Actually the most practical move would be to kill Joel without letting him know what’s going on so he wouldn’t be able to stop them, while also not telling Ellie that they were going to kill her Incase she said no. It wouldn’t be humane, but killing a 15 yr old for any reason would be inhumane so if I were the Fireflies I would have just killed them both.
@@FelixTwo22 If I remenber well they wanted to kill joel, he is a live only thank to marlene
@@FelixTwo22 I don't think they need to kill Joel, we played the game and know the bond between Joel and Ellie, but for the Fireflies Joel is just a smuggler that finished his job of transporting Ellie to the Hospital and they need to pay him some guns.
Gregory Solarte Well Joel’s job was simply to take Ellie to the capitol building in Boston, he did that other stuff of his own accord and it’s a logical assumption that if he spent an entire year with her, he Amy have developed an affection towards her and he’d be hesitant to just let her die. That’s why the doctor didn’t even want Marlene to tell Joel that they were going to kill her, and he was right.
Gordon rass kwasi You see? Marlen screwed up.
VERY grounded and level headed. A breath of fresh air surrounding this games undue criticisms and controversy. Thank you.
WHOLE lotta undue and unfair criticism around this game.
Except the criticism isn't undue.
@@wanderintwilight1760 not all of them. But a great part
@@joaovitorcruz5133 u
@@joaovitorcruz5133 7777b
"This path you walk... vengeance. You will find no peace. I know." - Kratos, God of War. I think Ellie understood that at the end of the game.
brilliant quote
kratos quotes are in every game review i swear
To bad Kratos could not make a cameo appearance after Joel died to break Ellie out of the cycle of violence she was swept up in.
Yea kill hundreds of people just to not kill the person you wanted dead...Makes absolute sense to a dumb fanboy.
@@tworains2 i hope you're joking
Not only does Abby’s muscle tone have logic and reason behind it, it also is a symbol of her resolve. In a sense, her muscles are her armor. She built it up for years after her world was completely shattered. At the end, you can see that she has is emaciated and spent, not only nutritionally, but emotionally as well
Also: Abby had every right to seek revenge against Joel. But the way she tortured him first is meant to be indicative of the ways that the pursuit of revenge twisted and changed her, the same way it will eventually turn Ellie into someone she is not. We are *supposed* to hate Abby. We are supposed to see the horror of what she did. The rest of the story is supposed to provide perspective on that
ALSO also. Not only did Joel kill Abby’s dad, he killed the single sense of hope that*many* people thought was their last chance at saving humanity. Abby’s life was largely shaped BY the fireflies and the pursuit of a cure. When joel does this, he also wrecks Abby’s sense of identity. Who is Abby outside of the fireflies? So she centers her identity arojdn the only other purpose she feels she has- revenge. But once she goes through a parallel arc to what Joel does in the first game, the bonding with a child, she begins to see hope again. Ellie loses her sense of identity upon learning what Joel did, too. And her preoccupation with “finishing it” doesn’t come from her anger at Abby- it comes from her inability to forgive herself. It comes from her struggle with her sense of purpose outside of being “the cure.” Both characters go through their own arc of realizing that revenge wasn’t the thing that was going to help them. Hell, Abby completed her revenge and she STILL had the nightmares
"Just because you don't like something, or that it wasn't what you expected, doesn't make it objectively bad. It just means you don't like it."
As a writer, I can appreciate this so much. You done did good, dude.
Eh, its a good game, just not as good as it claimed to be, its like a solid 7/10
@@alexmac851 nothing wrong with that
That's a completely true statement. However, it's wrong to assume that all criticism of the game is from people who just wanted a different kind of story.
I think the storytelling was kind of bad. Looking back, it seems like this kind of story could have been much more successful if told by different writers, or if it was assembled in a different way. It just didn't work for me... I never gained sympathy for Abby or felt that Ellie did anything wrong. I disliked playing as Abby as my goal in the game was to kill her... I don't want to be her and help her succeed, and her storyline didn't change my mind about that. Some of the scenes were very well done, especially the flashbacks, but the overall story just didn't work for me.
Especially the ending. Ellie was so incredibly motivated to seek revenge, it just doesn't make sense to me at all that she would suddenly give up on it at the last second. That could work if Ellie had never killed before and didn't realize she wouldn't be able to go through with killing Abby... but the Ellie in this game is a cold hearted killer, having dispatched dozens of people without a care. She didn't worry about any of their friends or family feeling a loss or continuing the cycle of revenge, but suddenly that matters when it comes to Joel's killer? I just don't think the story the writers were going for was told in an effective way.
bunyip Plus losing her fingers at the end would’ve made her rage more into killing abby.
@@bobdonda Everyone keeps bring up the NPCs she kills as if they weren't soldiers that didn't have orders to kill all trespassers on sight. It was stated BEFORE she even started killed them that they were going to kill her. We were killing clickers before then
Having finished playing the game without any spoiler or knowing anything about the development, leaks ect I logged onto the internet to see what people thought of it.
I mean my god I know there are some hostile people online but the amount of straight up hate speech I’ve been seeing about this game is shocking! I read an entire redit thread complaint about Abby the trans getting but raped in her sex scene. Like what? You guys hear that there is a trans character and immediately assume that it the chick with muscles?
I can’t understand why some people would put so much energy into spreading false info about a game they clearly have not even played!
". . .spreading false info about a game they clearly have not even played!"
This is undoubtedly where the low Metacritic score comes from. Some of the reviews I've read have been illiterate parroting of the same ill informed points.
Unfortunately, this. I think a lot of people were angry about Naughty Dog's treatment of the leaks, and their punishment of those people who were spreading them (even to the point of punishing people on TH-cam that hadn't even said/showed anything), that they decided to review-bomb the game en masse - especially considering near-unanimous praise from critics. It's unfortunate, but I think a lot of these reviews actually *were* from people who never even played the game, but were just trying to punish Naughty Dog. I get the anger over that, and I agree - ND's handling of that situation was not great. That's no reason to purposefully just throw massive shade on an entire game for it - that's literally punishing the developers who actually made this great game.
@@TassadarBJ
Good assessment. I think I side with ND in all this, as I can't say what I would do if I spent 7 years on a hush hush IP only to have it sloppily divulged online by angry man children just before launch.
Now talk about the game
Yeah I had the same experience. I avoided ALL media on this game until I finished it two days ago and MY GOD the disgusting underbelly of the internet has really surfaced for this one. Very disappointing, but fuck'em. I loved the game so it's their loss if they're disappointed with it, especially those that never even gave it a chance.
The writers took it a step further with the cycle of revenge by giving all the NPCs you kill names. It's like they're telling you that each one has an Abbie or an Ellie whose world was just shattered now that their loved one is gone.
Yet, they force you pretty much to kill them from the start.
Yup it's brilliant. It gives a violent video game more life rather than killing a bunch of nobodies.
@@Mechamjr88 Still killing nobodies. Unless Part 38 will be one of those nobodies. :D
Priestofgoddess you can skip most encounters
@@vortexvenom But you can't talk with them and you don't have any kind of non lethal stealth take down.
Abby’s physical condition reflects her purpose. She wants get as ready for revenge as possible.
People are saying her body is.. unrealistic. I mean there are a lot of buff woman out there and I guess a lot of people forgot the fact the WLFS base was a football stadium and has the gym equipment perfectly intact. Plus we saw her lean on the flash flash and she only developed muscles when she focused her years to get revenge.
she basically trained after her father died
Abby's body is 100% unrealistic within the context of the game. As a soldier who has lived in expeditionary conditions, I can tell you that even men in a situation like that don't bulk up, they lean out. No matter how hard you work out, if you're moving and fighting as much as the WLF does, you simply cannot recover and strengthen enough to achieve the body Abby has. And before you say that she's based on an actual person (Colleen Fotsch,) Crossfit has such a poor anti-doping record that she's almost certainly on steroids.
ALL THAT BEING SAID... It doesn't matter. Abby's physicality informs the narrative, shows her grief at her father's death, and her drive to seek revenge. If this issue ruined the game for someone, it's a miniscule and insignificant thing to get bent out of shape for.
@@marvelousmeh2077 It's completely unrealistic, but it also doesn't matter. It's just something people have latched onto to criticize Abby.
ngl, from the way some people described it, I thought the characters who weren't white would just be tacked on for brownie points. But turns out they're an important part o the narrative, that's neat.
Because those jackasses didn’t play the game. They watched/read a summary and though they got the story.
@@PureSwedishViking More like they read that Joel died, and you play as Joel's killer and in the end you spare Abby. These people are borderline delusional, they know like 3-5 plot points of the game and act as if they have feasibility to judge and rate the game.
Lev's story was well done in my opinion. I saw people on twitter giving the disclaimer that the game had transphobia, to the point of basically being transphobic torture porn, so I was expecting a LOT worse. I thought it was handled maturely, and naughty dog's decision to tell Lev's backstory mostly through vague vocal exposition was by far the best choice. I was really happy to have some decent representation.
I feel the same exact way. It’s impossible to say that bigotry wouldn’t still exist in a post-apocalyptic world, especially in a religious group. I think the writers were as realistic as possible, and strayed from being unnecessarily offensive
Absolutely. I thought it was exactly as subtle as it should be, Naughty Dog didn’t shove it in your face, none of the characters really made unnecessary remarks about it. It was just kind of, this is how it is, and everything just moves on.
His story that he is trans and ran away that's it.
He is the worst story of all of them really.
@@samirsherif2007 I liked it tbh. It gives him and Abby a bond in the end, that they were both shunned by their people over something quite trivial. And it gives motivation for his existence blah blah blah.
@@samirsherif2007 people hating on this game always like to minimize the characters and their stories. sure, that's exactly what his story is, but with so much more built onto it
I love how everyone’s either like “this game is a beautiful master piece” or they think it’s leftist propaganda trash. I wanted play for myself and I thought it was simply ok, like it wasn’t the greatest but like I wasn’t outraged over it
Agreed. I enjoyed the characters. I appreciated Abby's muscular physique and it's development throughout the main and back stories. I found the games story line frenetic with a lack of cohesion.
I also appreciate you're bringing up body types. It has been completely blown out of proportion. Thank you for this video.
It's The Last Jedi of video games!
If you played the first game or are simply a fan of TLOU you should be outraged. The purposely destroyed the story in order to make a "point".
The arguing around this game made me not like it... So exhausting. After finishing, it was ok, I felt the characters weren’t as interesting as the previous game.
Agreed. It wasn’t amazing but it wasn’t bad either. I actually liked Abby’s portion of the game more tbh. What really kills it for me is the lack of an online mode. I spent so many hours on factions.
I thought the game was well done, just not what a lot of us wanted unfortunately.
I just realized that at the start abby gets recused by Joel, who's the one she wanted to kill, then at then end, she gets rescued by a person who also wanted to kill her, Ellie.
An underrated line by abby "I'd let you live, and you wasted it" where Abby saved Ellie from her friend that to kill her.
Ellie at the end "go...just take him." Of course speaking in regards the Lev but I sort of thought of it as a way of her saying to just go and take that part of her life (Joel) that she could never reclaim. Probably just a personal takeaway but *shrug*
@@inthedeadhours Dude, that's deep.
You know, I don't agree with many of your opinions on this game. Personally it's the best game I've ever played, but this is easily the best video I've seen on TLOU2. You don't like the game, but you acknowledge it's strengths and weaknesses. You talk about how disgustingly horrible people are being and respectfully explain why they're in the wrong. You don't try to talk about the things you don't know (Lev's situation) and you intelligently talk about the things you do know. Bravo, man. I may not agree with some things you said but that doesn't matter at all
did you play the first and did you prefer the sequel over the first?
@@azure89 ya I've played the first one like 6 or 7 times. I personally prefer the second one. The story is more unique, deeper, and it takes more risks and I think the gameplay is better (not to mention the improved graphics). Im definitely in the unpopular opinion there but ya I think the second one takes the magic of the first and just improves on it
Avram Sanders I’m right there with you.
@@avramsanders9198 Agreed. I found more appreciation of the first one on a second play-through, but the second one blew it out of the water on every level.
Avram Sanders I agreee with you
I noticed an interesting parallel when playing as Abby. When she turns on the WLF in order to save Lev, it had the same feeling as when Joel turned on the Fireflies to save Ellie. You’re basically laying waste to all these people who were once allies for the sake of a child you’ve grown to love. It made playing as Abby worth it (which I did not want to do at first due to my strong connection to Joel and Ellie thanks to the first game). Personally, I enjoyed the game overall. Thank you for the excellent analysis.
Kenneth Harris I too saw a similar parallel. One can argue that Joel never saw the fireflies as allies though. If anything he was very distrusting of them throughout the first game.
Great point! Regarding the WLF, I think the implication is that Abby only really stuck with them as a means to an end - to train as a fighter and eventually find (and kill) Joel. Since all of her friends were killed, and due to Isaac's poor leadership, she no longer had an emotional attachment to the group. But to your point, I feel the story is intentionally drawing parallels between Abby and Joel's journey (their gameplay is also very similar from a mechanical standpoint). Joel's decision to save Ellie was almost selfish in a way. From my perspective, it was less about saving her life, but rather a desperate attempt to save what little humanity he had left. I think that was the same reason Abby went after Lev and his sister. It wasn't because she "really" cared about them (not at the beginning at least) - instead, it was a desperate attempt to atone for her sins (exacting revenge), and to regain the humanity she lost when killing Joel. Regardless, I thought the story was beautifully told.
Joel didn't turn on the Fireflies. They turned on him. They took Ellie and acted all high and mighty, escorting him on gunpoint without his stuff. I wouldn't call it a betrayal, because he never trusted them in the first place, but this for sure wasn't a sign of love.
Abby has known Lev for literally a day and a half, maybe two. This absolutely NOTHING like Joel taking months to trust Ellie and longer to begin loving her dearly. Abby's soft spot for Lev & Yara is contrived.
I don't think Joel ever viewed Fireflies as allies.
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO GETS IT!
This guy doesnt even like the game but almost everything he says i fully agree(i love the game btw), he actually understands story structure and writing better than 99% of "critics" out there, its fine if you disagree with the story like he does in the video but he understands why it isnt bad and because of that he gets a sub from me, very well done video dude!
yea, I agree with him too, just so happens I did like the story a lot
boils down to if you liked TLOU and was invested in Joel Ellie you will hate TLOU2 if you didnt care for tlou that much you probably enjoy 2 as well.simple. I hated TLOU2 so i let you guess what my opinion of TLOU is
@@Jaklas1979 i mean i like both games so...
I also liked the story. It’s very well written and I appreciated the fact that Ellie didn’t kill Abby. In a way how the first game is about Joel’s redemption, the second can be summed up as Ellie’s acceptance of what Joel did, even if it was for selfish reasons. I avoided spoilers for this game like the plague. Didn’t want to see anything that would ruin the experience for me which I’m glad I did.
@@Jaklas1979 Agreed. I loved the dynamic between Joel and Ellie but I also liked this game. The thing is, they didn't have to tell this exact plot about revenge and not sure why they chose that they needed too. The story works well but people really didn't want this, they wanted another Joel and Ellie game.
My thoughts on a couple of things:
I think that playing as Abby and retrospectively interacting with characters that Ellie has killed was a good choice. Its too easy to indiscriminately kill in games without thought. Which is exactly what you do as Ellie. You then go on to see that these people had lives, their own ambitions, goals etc and realise there's much more to them. It further develops the idea that your actions have consequences.
With Lev, the loss of his mother is just an additional event mounting against him. Its like the nail in the coffin to walk away from the Scars. In turn, it helps bring him and Abby closer and he becomes the catalyst for Abby to make the pivotal decision to spare Dina and Ellie. Without the death of his mother, he wouldn't have had the push he needed to run away from it all.
Really enjoyed the video. I think it needed to be expressed that just because the story was a very bitter pill to swallow (my reaction to switching to Abby was "FUCK THIS GAME!!!"), it doesn't mean that it's a bad story.
Thank you for this. Even when I saw the leaks (and thought I would hate playing as Abby, which I did not) I was thinking HOLY SHIT THIS GAME IS GONNA BE GENIUS! And I'm so glad I was right. I loved how this game connected to me as the player, making me feel guilt and often at times making me want to specifically go the stealth route just to not kill. Just stop. Stop all the violence is what I kept thinking to myself. And Ellie AND Abby both stopped it at the end! It was a beautifully tragic tale of 2 women who lost their father(figure)s, and what it took from them in both their path of destruction and obsession/redemption. It was just hard to play and get through, and so much to think about.
Very well put
The same happened the same to me when first playing as Abby after she killed Joe. I was like I don’t wanna play this game any more. But oh man, I really ended up liking her character!
You realise that Joel Had a Story too and Abby dont Care about IT
@@bloodyrevenge7635 exactly why don't they go make a game specifically for Abby then I didn't play this game to feel some kind of guilt 😂 I was already subriced to Joel and ellies onslaught and loved the game like most because of what they stood for this game spits in the face of that
Great review. Unbiased, honest, and fair. You should consider a career in this kind of game review.
And the only morality in a cruel world is chance. Unbiased, unprejudiced, fair. - Harvey Dent
If he was a reviewer people would say “He’S BiAsEd”, there’s one above me @reeshuag
nikolai 1939 WOAH WATCH OUT FOR MR COOL GUY OVER HERE
just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're an ass
@@SuggestiveGaming It's pretty good, but I would say you focus too much on retelling the story instead of analysis it.
But that's the only thing.
It’s kinda scary and concerning how easily people jumped on the hate bandwagon.
What's even scarier and more concerning is how quickly other people blindly dismiss anyone who criticizes the game as "having just jumped on the hate bandwagon" when clearly they haven't bothered hearing those critics out. The amount of strawmanning coming from those people who speak positively of the game is astronomical.
a mordor orc I’d argue that there are far more people hating on the game that haven’t played it. Some people outright admit that even though they haven’t played the game that it’s still bad. No offense but I haven’t seen too many people do what you’re saying.
AJ Martinez funny I don’t remember saying EVERYONE who hates the game is on a bandwagon. The game has its flaws and I actually have some problems with the story, but there is a very vocal crowd who hate it through word of mouth alone.
AJ Martinez yeah one thing everyone can agree on is that the game is very polarizing compared to the first. It’s trying something risky with it’s story rather than playing it safe.
Idiots will be idiots.
"There is nothing more dreadful than the habit of doubt. Doubt separates people. Doubt destroys friendships and happy relations. It is like a poison that irritates and hurts. It is a sword that kills without drawing blood." - Buddha
What do you feel is the context for this quote, in relationship to this review? I might assume it's to do with negativity (as doubt) poisoning audience perception of TLoU2 despite its qualities? Perhaps in the context of TLoU2's story and characters, as a mechanism that destroys relationships and lives?
In any case, I think it's important to consider the distinction between cynical doubt and skeptical doubt. I think doubt, when used as a razor for discerning truth or quality, is incredibly valuable. I dig the Buddha, but the meaning can become distorted by evolving language patterns.
What about suspicion?
@@ajtemp2000 Yes, with a caveat -- I figure suspicion is essentially what the quote would refer to, which I would include in the blanket category of cynical doubt (cynicism is rooted in the assumption that human motivation is recklessly selfish; a mindset that would certainly encourage suspicion/paranoia). However, I felt there was some uncertainty about what Tea Tea intended the quote to apply to, which is why I was asking for thoughts & context.
The story is amazing and perfect to me, i dont care what other people think. I loved the game as much as the first one
Me too dude
Perfect storytelling tbh
Absolutely amazing
Perfect is a strong word. I don't think either one was perfect. But IT IS some of the best story telling that I've ever seen in a video game series.
same
Something that I thought of since I finished watching the gameplay last week.
By the end of the story, Abby has been mourning her father for about 5 years. We see her in the last year of that grief.
The game starts with Joel dying. We are actively watching the first year or so of Ellie's grief.
Grief makes you irrational. Some other people were complaining that this is out of character for Ellie, but she just lost someone that was nearly family to her. And unlike what happened in Left Behind, this was due to the actions of another thinking human being.
She had someone to blame. Not circumstances, not the plague, not a faceless organization. Someone.
Not the bite of an infected, the scratch of a werewolf, nor demonic possion make a monster in this story. All it takes is a person and an act of brutality to cause an infection. A person can destroy your heart, and you become a vengeful monster.
8:16 AMEN! Think whatever you want, but make sure it's what YOU think. It's called being an adult (which this game is rated for).
Seriously, if there's an argument to be made for video games not being art, then gamers are that argument.
Lightning2153 preach!!!
True but there's always going to be an objective truth no matter what. Yes video games are art and art is subjective, but shouldn't be pissed off when someone critiques your work.
Even if everything they said is a fact
This is how you do a review. Whilst I personally love the story and it’s bold take on continuing their story, I understand it’s divisive. But you managed to still respect the devs, fans, and people with opposing opinions. You looked at it from a non biased perspective, and for that, you get a cookie.
Bet u really loved that abby sex scene 2 huh
I loved the story too but at least he wasn't just blindly bashing it and misrepresenting it. Something I can't say for others (angry joe)
@@NCA_Azzy what? You just proved his point. Joel wasn't a bad person but isnt a hero either yet people love him for being a caring father and doing what he can to survive. He changes here for the good too and Ellie cares about him.
DangerVille
Why does he have to respect disrespectful people?
Nameless Chaos Alliance He isn’t. He didn’t save Ellie coz she’s a teenage girl who had her choice taken away. He took her choice away by killing the doctor and lying to her. He saved Ellie coz she’s his new Sarah.
For me, the most interesting part about the game are the Seraphites. They have their own culture, their own island, and although I disliked playing as Abby, exploring the island was the best part by far. In the end I was only interested in whether the Seraphites could fight off the Wolves and protect their home.
And final scene at all speed through the fire... jesus christ!!!
@@agustindaponte7730 yeah that escape through haven was done really well
agree :))
Actually, when you enter the theater as Abby, on Seattle day 3, you can listen to the radio that Wolfs are losing to Scars. I guess the Seraphite won and they will come back on a The Last of Us Part 3 sequence
The only real issue with ellie and dina is that they could have exploded their conflict (dina being concerned that ellie is going too far) rather than having her stay behind. I do really like the story of the second game. Dina being pregnant therefore in danger doesn’t make ellie even suggest going back and is fine with dina being in danger if it means she can get revenge. This actually fits with the end of the game because ellie sacrifices her relationship all for the sake of revenge
That's Ellie's whole thing, she's selfish. Only caring about herself and what she wants, but look at who she's had for role models.
Did anyone realize that in the 1st Last of Us the ending shows ellie holding the two fingers she loses in the second game
holy shit
nice catch dude
Damn dude. Probably just a coincidence but I hope not lol.
I thought im the only one loll
She does that pose a lot, when she is talking with Dina about her immunity she does that as well
It's good that slowly but surely people are starting to understand what the story means.
Real talk, people are throwing their toys out of the pram. There is no analysis, only emotional reactions.
@@christiansle4533 huh?
You can understand a story and still not like it though 🤷🏽♀️
@@goshofwar1842 yeah but you also cant say the game is bad just because the story isnt what you wanted
Jordan Phillips Yes you can. Everyone has a right to an opinion. And if you like it then that’s fine and you shouldn’t care about what others think.
What a great, respectful and non-biased take. Loved it! Don't mind if people didn't like the game, just that the immature biased videos/comments got tiresome real quick. At the end of day it's a videogame folks, get a grip.
@Unfiltered Reality Yes cause it's vital, super important I get mad over a videogame, as ACG stated at the end of his review. Did you even watch the video? It was a breakdown of only the story itself. What are you getting at for discarding 0/10 and 10/10 reviews? If your talking about me being upset at the negative reviews of this title, you couldn't be more off. I take all my video game reviews with a grain of salt.
Take for intense the first TLOU. Universally acclaimed by the majority of reviews everywhere. I for one thought the game was just "meh". The same thing I could say for GTA 5. I loved all the 3D GTA games right until part 5. God Hand, a title for the PS2, which was received negatively, became one of my all time favorites.
Mario A. That ign review of god hand. Never forget lol
@@rensopinto2139 Never will man! Along with their Doom 2016 review will live in infamy with me.
Biased
70 percent of the original naughty dogs writers and makers were pushed out by Neil so we all now who had real talent stop justifying it that’s most of fan base says it’s trash even the original naughty dog writers who made last of us says it’s trash 😂😂😂
I think the fact that this game has brought up so much discussion and controversy shows that its a pretty damn good story. It's brutal, depressing, and doesn't really give the player any satisfaction, but it makes you think and leaves a lot up to interpretation.
Personally I felt one of the games biggest messages was that nobody in their world is really 'good' or 'bad', they're just on different sides. Joel deprived the world of a potential cure and killed a lot of people, Abby kills Joel, Ellie slaughters a lot of people on the path to kill Abby, Abby kills a lot of the people closest to Ellie, the WLF is just trying to survive and so are the seraphites.
I don't understand the hatred of Lev's portrayal either. Instead of putting in a trans character for the sake of having one, and giving him some special treatment, they portrayed what that experience would be like in the context of this brutal world. You even get to enact revenge on the people that wronged him, I can't imagine how they could have done his character any differently without watering it down.
I didn’t even really see Lev as a trans character, just a kid trying to get out of arranged marriage and wanting to fight. Is Mulan a trans character now too?
Imo a depressing story is a bad story, I don’t wanna feel sad or depressed I wanna feel good and happy Because it’s a video game and that’s the purpose of it...
@@user-wx5sx5xt7e that makes absolutely no sense. Just because the story is sad doesnt make it bad. This is such a one-sided way to think
Caroline Morais it might not make sense to you but to me it does, a sad story gives off bad vibes to me it makes me feel bad therefor I don’t like it, I play the game to feel good not to feel bad.
@@user-wx5sx5xt7e this is a joke right? With your logic The Departed, Schindler's list, and Sixth Sense are depressing stories and therefore must be bad. Red dead redemption is depressing is it a bad story?
I actually love the last of us as a series and i love the last of us part 2 regardless what anyone is saying
Yeah this is a great game no doubt. Worthy sequel.
Glad that someone enjoy it
I loved the game for what it is too. I can respect the fact that the developers told a story that would logically happen with the characters rather than just another mountain of fan service many other sequels do sometimes. (Not gonna lie, I still LOVE the flashbacks to better times with Joel and Ellie 🙂)
I began seeing tlou 2 as a good game because they (Neil,Troy,ashley) explained everything in an interview
Yall can watch the interview in kinda funny games channel
@RedDraws -Art thanks for the info, buddy.
This review made me feel more sane about my take on the story. I understand not liking it, but the people saying the writing/story were trash.. I don't get it, and aside from some of the pacing, I don't think they have good arguments, and i've really listened. Thanks for the video!
Agree. The hate for this game, if we’re being honest, comes from Joel’s death and LGBT representation. One half hates the game because they killed off their favorite character and the other half is because there’s LGBT representation which they automatically assume is pandering but it’s truthfully just homophobia.
@@ariesgonzalezag Sorry, but no. Most arguments from people who dislike this game has valid reasons, me included after finishing the game. The poor pacing, character development, plot holes and many more. But they still praising the visuals and combat etc. In fact, some of the bad reviews including me think that Ellie and Dina's relationship could've developed better, like I wish they would talk more, see more of them, but the game fails that. So, I think saying "the hate for this game comes from Joel's death and LGBT representation" is dismissing people's valid arguments and so far from the truth.
@@pamb2399 to be fair, there are a lot of people who never gave the game a chance because of Joel's death
There's to things that are bad story Joel's death as it was completely out of character how he died he would not react how he did in that room. Its fine he died but but its how the character dies. The second is Ellie she doesn't act how she does in the first yes she's grown as a character so there will be changes but somethings just didn't make sense especially the choices she made. The story telling is just not up to the high standard of the first. This is just my opinion though
Pam B don’t care didn’t ask
I like the tiny detail of Dina and Abby having armpit hair. It's pretty normal and yet so stigmatized by some people.
hahaha in the Asian culture it is not normal and not feminine to not trim armpit hairs, but I get it that is maybe normal to some cultures, and this is a fictional world where they do not have that culture of vanity where a woman is expected to trim armpit or leg hairs.
I think the point of Lev’s mothers death is to compare to both Abby losing her father and Ellie losing Joel. Parental death is also present with JJ losing Jesse before he’s even born. I could be reading to deep into it but that’s how I viewed it
Late comment, but it’s not just about losing a parent. It’s about losing a loved one in general. Henry from the first game is similarly horrified when he loses Sam, and some of the scattered notes tell a story about Boris, a former leader and a hunter who completely loses himself after the WLF killed his daughter.
I feel like people hopped on the whole “its a lazy revenge plot” bandwagon and missed a lot of important story points in the game. That criticism is an oversimplification of the plot that does the game a great disservice.
How about the the it is a 40+ hour story that can get draining?
I searched every corner of the world, and it took me 28 hours. The Abby parts dragged on for me at times, but I appreciated the perspective change.
Yeah its not even just revenge but how these two people handle grief and purpose for their life.
I think it's just being treated like a masterpiece when it's just not
@ryne green You missed the point I was trying to make.
I never thought of this franchise as a western
Now that I have heard it .
It is a western
Same mind blown
Its got horses, its got Joel's revolver, its got the music, its got a community made of wood. You have to navigate the world without GPS or straight roads. Yeah, its a western. Neo-Western if you include automatic weapons and working vehicles.
I thought the soundtrack gave it away pretty early in the first and also the second game :D
Its not a western
I’m beginning to see that probably a lot of the reason I might have a more favorable opinion of this game is down to my emotional perspective. For one thing, Joel’s death didn’t make me feel betrayed by the game because I’ve had to deal with a loved one dying in a very sudden, unfair, and random way, and so my brain is already familiar with processing that particular kind of grief. Joel’s death made me sad and reminded me of my own pain, but I knew, that’s just how it is sometimes.
For another thing, the violence and moral ambiguity in this game brought me back to when I read war books like Slaughterhouse Five and The Things They Carried back in high school, and again, it was all very familiar. Things like this have happened, and still happen. “So it goes.” “War is hell.”
I’m not trying to say that I’m somehow more mature or anything, but I do think I was less inclined to think up reasons to hate this game because it didn’t shock me so much.
linden I think you have something there. I think anyone who’s read litarary works is used to depictions of tragedy, and more comfortable with exploring negative emotions. These days I think a lot of people just want their stories to make them feel good. I like those kinds of stories too, but I also like stories that are uncomfortable and make me think and explore different feelings and ideas.
I agree with you here. My dad died of a sudden heart attack when I was 16, around the time the first game came out. Being a teenager, I had no idea how to process that grief, and it took me years to come to terms with it. I learnt that I had a lot in common with the characters in the first game for that reason. This second part seemed to take it even further. It gives me the impression that Neil has experienced a devastating and unexpected loss of his own, and I think it comes through with the emotional development of both Ellie and Abby throughout the game. As I’ve shared a similar experience, maybe I understood that more than other people who haven’t had to deal with that kind of trauma. You’re right, it’s not about maturity per se, but one’s personal experience and their ability to empathise/relate to the emotions of grief-stricken characters, who both find and lose their humanity throughout the story.
Jason Cabassi Yeah, I get that people might not like this type of story but don’t call it bad because it wasn’t for you.
I also personally really loved the game too because I tend to be an emotional masochist and consume a decent amount of media that can be very emotionally challenging or even traumatic. I don't have a similar experience of loss, but I have a lot of experience with abuse and it often corrupts people in the same way. For me I see it like the cycle of abuse and how the pain we experience can often poison us and drive us to inflict pain on others.
What you say is really interesting. Honestly I think people were so mad about Joel's death was because it was so unexpected and real. So many stories give their characters too much plot armour so we never expect them to be killed in such brutal and unexpected ways. ND gave us a reality and unfortunately some people just couldn't handle that.
20:14 "An eye for an eye, and the world goes blind."
Ayeeeee Markus says that in Detroit Become Human if you choose not to shoot Chris, one of the cops being held at gunpoint by your Android people
I don't leave that many comments, but this essay said everything I wanted to and more. The pedestal the fanbase put Joel on somehow enabled some of the worse dialogue I've seen on Internet forums. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
Agreed. I mean, I love Joel a lot, he is one of my favorite characters by far, but I never held him as a hero, I like him because he felt so real.
@@TheCosmonautStrand I feel for the guy. I don't know if I liked him and I felt bad that I didn't. But four years of lying to Ellie just really irked me. He's a well written character for sure though.
when people say "Joel deserved better" I genuinely question whether they've either played the first game or just watched the story. Either way would surely suffice to create the opinion that Joel got exactly what he deserved.
@@Sam-mi9wi I think even before Ellie he killed innocent people as a smuggler, right? He probably understood it was his time.
@@Sam-mi9wi Yes but he is also a character which ND purposefully made likeable in the first game. If you played it, you would understand why he is adored.
This was a great breakdown! Thanks.
This game took me a couple days to process. Its deep. It challenges your emotions. I would say much of the same conclusions you came to are very similar to those I realized after thinking about. You have also given me some additional things to think about as well.
I will say this much up front, at the first climactic moment, when the story flips from Ellie to Abby, I was not happy. I didn’t hate the game, just was not happy with the position I was put in as a player. Everything up to that point was Ellie’s (*my) revenge for what Abby did to Joel. I killed every WLF I came across up to that point, as I viewed them no better than Abby. To also, be honest, I did that because it made it easier search for all the collectibles too, but it was motivated by revenge. The moment the cutscene switch to Abby, I was not happy, and I knew what ND was trying to do.
At that point, I kinda didn’t want to pick the controller back up. Looking back now, I realize this is exactly what ND wanted. They wanted us to not just see Ellies pain/revenge, but feel as if it were our own. And, now, I see how that is great story telling simply in that they did not just make us (the player) witness to the story, as if we were some passive observers, rather they wanted us invested in it, to feel, to suffer with the characters. That is immersion. That is storytelling that truly makes the story feel real.
This is the difference between this game and the first. The first game is more of a story where we are along for the ride. Sure, we become emotionally invested, but from a more distant perspective. We sympathize with the characters we see everything through their eyes. We can’t help but feel for their struggle. There is no real controversy, except up until the end. Part 2, on the other hand, though 10 hours in, makes you feel twist in your gut, early on, and you have to struggle with it the rest of the game. As Abby, I struggled at first. I mean, lets be honest, I wanted to see what the ending would be, so I just played on, even if I was not really excited to play as Joel’s killer. But as her story goes, you can see that she has as much reason, if not maybe more, to enact her revenge. You see her struggle, growth, and eventual character arc.
By the time the two story’s meet again, you are thrown into a place you (the player) dont want to be, fighting as Abby against Ellie. That was tough. Throwing every punch was very very hard. I died so many times at this part, partly because Ellie was a tough boss battle, and partly because I didn’t know what ND was going to do, and I didn’t want it to be the worst possible thing, kill Ellie. I didn’t really believe that would be the case but I still feared it. Same is the case for the end, fighting as Ellie against Abby. I just didn’t want to kill Abby, and in this point in the story, it was much more a real possibility that ND could have made us do that, despite any common sense one would have to the story ND was actually trying to tell, and killing Abby was not in it. Emotions were high, judgement off, so it all felt raw and real.
It for this reason why I respect the way ND crafted this story. I suppose I could nit pick the story and find things that were not the best, but I do not think that is the real achievement here. I many ways I too would have expected a different story, and maybe even preferred one. But, having really seen it in full now, along with the meaning of it all, and despite the anguish I felt playing through much of the later stories major climactic points, it was what I want in a riveting story. Most stories told, whether in the form of movie, tv show, game, or whatever medium, are just stories we passively observe, sometimes mindlessly, and other times, making us feel something, but rarely, if ever have I ever felt as if I were actually part of the story, maybe not physically, but most definitely emotionally. And, most stories have a beginning middle and end, with some form of bow tied on at the end concluding everything (a.k.a happy ending), giving a person not much more to think about, or toss and turn at night over. That’s the fantasy story telling style. That’s not real life. Real life is messy and stories we experience often dont have nice neat endings, often dragging on the rest of our lives. ND’s ending to Part 2 is precisely that, a more realistic ending, fitting to real life, and thus making the experience, though maybe uncomfortable, more real. We usually prefer the happy ending because it acts like a drug and allows us to numb the pain of our real life. That’s why this can be even harder to accept. This
My takeaway from the message ND is trying to say is, there are always two sides to a story. We all live our lives, and only see it through our own eyes. Our perspective, therefore, is naturally biased to our experience. The average person lives this way, judging and acting solely on their bias, never really taking into account how someone’s else experience and perspective may make something different. I feel like this story is trying to say, before you act on your thoughts and emotions, in reaction to something, whatever that may be in life, maybe its good to take a step back and consider if maybe the story is different from another perspective. Maybe your actions are not as justified as you may feel they are if you look at it from a different set of eyes. In the world we live in today, this especially feels very true, as there are even greater societal differences than ever before.
Also, another little thing I noticed, and I do not recall if you noted this, but it would appear ND was trying to give Abby/Lev a similar sort of arc and story as the Joel/Ellie. Conveniently, Lev is 13, where Ellie was 14 in the first game. Also, Abby seems to be revered in the WLF’s, presumably for her conduct on the field against the Scars, whom she clearly hates, so it would seem they are painting potentially darker past, especially if you throw in the hate she carries for Joel, and eventually acts on. It almost seems like they want to give Abby an arc similar to Joel’s, where Joel didn’t like Ellie and wanted nothing to do with her, similarly Abby didn’t like the Scars, but because of her interaction with Yara/Lev she slowly began to care, as Joel eventually did with Ellie. This, of course, then evolves into Abby viewing Lev as family in the way Joel eventually saw Ellie as his daughter. The only disservice to this storyline is that they did not have the amount of time to truly develop the story between Abby/Lev as they did with Joel/Ellie in the first game. Could this be a DLC? Maybe. Not sure where they would actually take it though, let alone fit into the story. I also dont think they have plans for a DLC, as far as I last heard, but who knows.
Anyways, just my thoughts... Thanks for the content!
wow. you put into words my exact feelings towards the game.
Wow, literally what I was thinking when I read everyone's hate and thought I was crazy
The one time where I actually read a whole essay ( sarcasm) on this and read every word. I felt much of the same way.
You've hit the nail on the head my friend.
This is a fantastic write up. Thanks for sharing!
This is one of the best synopses I've seen/heard from someone who admittedly didn't like the story. I'm so glad you articulate that there's a difference between not liking it but it still being pretty well written and executed
This is what the world needs much more of - a level head that can see both sides of the coin. Not just with the Last of Us but pretty much with everything.
I see so many just yelling "the best thing ever" or "the worst thing ever" - just black and white. No, reality is so much more complicated than that, this game included. If you don't put a little bit of thought into it, you won't see the entire picture.
Really great video review!
I heard both arguments and found that both sides are wrong. People who think the game is flawless are no more right than those who say it is bad. Personally, I did not enjoy it so much due to its presentation. Although the concept was interesting, it just did not end well which is why I think the game isn't so good despite the parts that make it good.
@@infamouscrusader3363 I think if this was a western inspired revenge tale it would have worked better if they had followed totally different people and you know actually got revenge. I definitely thought the writers were trying wayy too hard to be politically correct. No one's playing a video game to be taught moral lessons. No one's wants to play a video game where the whole point is violence is wrong, revenge is wrong. That just makes for a terrible video game. And you have to judge this off not just the story but the fact it is a GAME. Not a book or a movie, it's a violent video game. And that's why people enjoyed the first one. It seems pretty hypocritical of them to make all of their money off being a violent video game and then turn around and beat the players over the head that violence is wrong, revenge is wrong. Sure maybe in the real world but this is a video game. And in a Video game violence is fun, revenge is fun! People play video games to escape the real world. There isn't any room for cautionary morality tales in the franchise of a game known and loved for being violent or in the video game industry at all.
I felt great about this game, so I tried to understand the hates of it so that I could evaluate this game rightfully. I read through a lot of articles to gather thoughts, and eventually crafted a summary for myself for the first time (I never write such a game analysis before, I am just an ordinary player). That summary is awfully written, and I am not content.
Here comes this video from you. It is neatly written, the points are justified with evidence and logic, and the messages are clearly delivered. This video is appeasing and enjoyable to watch. Thank you for the great work.
"Don't let them tell you what to think," the best message I got. Sadly, most people take someone else's word immediately and not give an opinion on their own. Well done!
So true. Some people didn’t even purchase the game due to bad reviews saying that they’re so glad they didn’t bought the game and didn’t experience on their own the game and gave bad reply’s like you don’t seriously have to agree with the majority of people’s opinions, either way i think overall it’s a pretty great game
I assume people like that waste their time watching the Quartering and then take his words and plagerize his words to make it sound like it's their opinion instead of coming to their own conclusions.
Ill be honest. This video changed my mind. I like abby even before watching this but i kinda hated how they made the story like how ellie killed everybody except abby but now i get it. Thank you for this, its an eye openner and not just for this game but also on how i perceive other things in life and other games. The story makes so much sense now and personally i find it a masterpiece now. Some people may still hate it but its fine, again we are free to have our own subjective views. I just appreciate the story more now than before, thank you.
you know, i would pat you in the back , because you were willing to reconsider your stance on the game and not hating mindleslly stuck in a loop. :) Im proud of you lol even if i dont know you haha
Watch Nathan zed and girlfriend reviews take on the game, they really opened my eyes too.
Knowing the fate of a character, that they're going to die, can serve to heighten tragedy. It's been an effective dramatic tool deployed by the Greeks when they first set their plays down in scrolls. Shakespeare made an entire cottage industry in telling the fate of characters during the introductory monologue. Yet today we find it inconceivable to have things "spoiled". Seeing Mel and Owen very much alive, knowing exactly when is the last moment that Abby speaks to them, knowing what awaits her when she returns to the Aquarium is a good story structure.
Abby has been afraid that Owen was dead ever since she found out that Danny had been killed and Owen was gone. The fear / awareness that Owen might die is a knowledge that the player has, and that Abby herself has deep inside, she simply tries to ignore it.
Late to the discussion, but Berserk is a great example of foreshadowing tragedy but succeeding in emotional attachment.
I adore this game and absolutely love and appreciate this video, you’re approach to the hate and the fact you can dislike something yet appreciate it for what it is. That’s me and hip-hop, can’t stand it, totally respect it. BTW you should watch the kinda funny games video with Neil Druckmann, Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker, some gems in there about the story and intention.
One of the many things I liked in your approach to dissecting and analyzing the story is in bringing up the parallels it has to other classic films and literature:
- True Grit
- Wuthering Heights
There are others begging to be included too, such as the Count of Monte Cristo, in which Edmund Dantes has devoted himself to years of a revenge plot, ingesting increasing doses of poison to build up a tolerance. I see this as similar to Abby's dedication to building up her body to massive proportions, to turn her body into a weapon, a perfect killing machine. And just like with these other revenge tales, Dantes finds his revenge ultimately unfulfilling.
TLoU2 can also be viewed as a story that starts out appearing like a revenge story, but is ultimately about how various characters are able to find peace with themselves. As a comparison, Kill Bill starts out as a fun revenge story, but ultimately, once the story reaches Bill, the story is more about reuniting family and earning freedom.
It saddens me to see people trying to use Star Wars and MCU as valid comparisons. They're not. Using those examples demonstrates a severe lacking in their literature studies.
My thoughts exactly. There are too many TH-cam reviewers out there who inject overused memes or random TV/movie clips into their video to "support" the points they are trying to make.
Also kudos to you for understanding that a dev doesn't owe anyone their wanted story. The fact that you didn't like TLOU 2 that much but were still able to do this shows immense self-reflection and just understanding. I, personally, loved it because I love stories that make psychological sense and show what unfinished business, past grief/trauma et al can do to you. This is subjective on my part of course, but I don't think it's erroneous to objectively say that ND did a good job with that portrayal. I'm definitely saving this video to reference when I one day post my review.
even though the devs don't owe anyone their wanted story they still need to cater towards the audience otherwise the audience will make their opinions heard through whichever way possible which i'm sure the devs realized even before released date that they made a huge mistake with this game
Jesse Junior? I kinda assumed "JJ"was for Joel/Jesse in a way.
It does actually
I thought she named the child Joel Jessie or Jessie Joel. I like those characters but holy shit. That's like a horrible name for a anyone.
@@marvelousmeh2077 finally someone points this out! Its like "Jerry John" or "Gary George". It just doesn't ring.
@@marvelousmeh2077 lol agree
people are so caught up with what characters deserve. if you still are obsessed with that, you cannot truly experience the game
So you the hand of god delivering judgement? Are your words final and irrefutable?
@@marlonm.255 dafuq bro go celebrate new year weirdo
@@KoneeKawa nice comeback
@@marlonm.255 We all have a say but let’s just keep it peaceful which is unlikely cuz this is the internet.
As a trans person, I thought I'd just toss my two cents into the hat about Lev's story, because why not. I guess I should also preface this by saying I really enjoyed TLOU2's story, some pacing and structure issues aside.
The biggest criticism of Lev's part of the story from both trans and Non-Trans people alike, is that the view Lev as just "another trans character put into the story to suffer", but I think writing it off like this is extremely unfair. A lot of this criticism would have stuck with me more if he was a one note character, but in my eyes, Lev is much more than just a trans person along for the ride. I actually think Lev (and Yara, but that's besides the point) are two of the better written new additions to the cast of characters.
While Lev does suffer, that doesn't seem out of line to me. The kid was born into and raised by traditionalistic religious cult, of course he's going to suffer due to his gender identity-that's kind of what cults do. I know some people are saying that Lev suffering is pandering, but I'd say that if he didn't suffer or struggle at all, that's what would have really felt like pandering to me.
I honestly have no problem with Naughty Dog writing something like this. While yes, Neil Druckmann is is Cis man, I don't think that's an issue if his writing is done tastefully, and in my opinion, it is. If I as an author, can write Cis characters, he should be allowed to write Trans characters, as long as it's done in a tasteful way. [SIDE NOTE: By 'Tasteful' I don't necessarily mean comfortable to watch/read, I mean respectful to the idea of trans people (not falling into the tropes of trans people being predators because they're trans, stuff like that.)]
Some people that are criticizing Lev's writing make it seem like outright torture porn, which is just disingenuous. Yes, he's deadnamed by cult members; yes, he's attacked by him own Mother; yes, this is all very uncomfortable to watch. But I think that means it's being done well. It's not hard to watch because it's 'cringy' or bad writing, it's hard to watch because it's accurate.
I guess at the end of the day, I'd rather see trans struggles and hardships like Lev's be portrayed in an accurate and realistic manner, than to have swept under the rug with the writing team pretending that everything is fine and dandy all the time.
In my opinion, Lev is some of the better trans representation we've gotten in gaming recently, and a lot of that has to do with his interactions with Abby, and how she doesn't expressly bring it up with Lev, and it all flows relatively organically. In fact it's so organic, that there are some people that have played through the game and aren't even entirely aware of the fact that Lev is trans, which I think is a testament to good writing.
Obviously this is all my opinion! I would never claim to be able to speak for the entire trans community, just like the greater trans community is unable to speak for me. Everyone can feel differently about this, that's the beauty of opinions.
This is some extremely valuable insight and I thank you for it 🙏
@@SuggestiveGaming Of course! I really loved your video, I'm definitely going to be binging through your channel now!
Thats exactly how I feel about it too. They could have made Lev some 1-D character in passing, but instead they actually put him in the context of that brutal world and what it might be like instead of just checking off some diversity box. Personally I feel like if there was anyone playing that was on the fence or transphobic, they might be more empathetic towards the struggles of trans people in our real world after playing.
True equality and representation in a story doesn't mean just having those characters exist in the story or portraying some happy facade, it means actually writing those characters in realistically. TLOU2 has a trans person outed from their religious community for living the life they want to live, as depressing as that is its a pretty common reality for actual trans people in the real world.
Its a complicated, not easy to swallow masterpiece. the fact that it is extremely controversial adds to that, because whoever has played the game has gone through emotions, was immersed in the story and witnessed different perspectives. and however your personal viewpoint of the the whole story is - it makes people discuss basic values of human life. from an artistic point of view: "job" (maybe the better word would be artwork) well done!
Excellent analysis. One thing I would add, in terms of what I think was intent of the writing: the main emotional takeaway for the characters was not meant to be sympathy, but pity. I left the game pitying Abby and Ellie. And I think that distinction between pity and sympathy is a key one when understanding the importance of Abbys role in the game especially. Those who interpret the game as trying to generate the same sympathy for Abby as for Ellie are the ones criticising it, and I don’t think that critique is justified
howardmoon1234 I mean, what are the differences between sympathy, pity, and empathy? They’re really not that different, it’s just that pity has a negative connotation. Not criticizing the game, I love it, but I do still think that the whole point was about having empathy for others and about how you should look at the situation from other people’s perspective’s before blindly hating them.
I left the game pitying whoever spent money on it I’m with you brother.
Literally God nah I loved it. Haven’t felt that emotionally blitzed since Requiem for a Dream
FelixTwo hey man, I think the key distinction between pity and sympathy is whether you think in their situation you would have done the same thing. If you sympathise, you might think ‘yeah I get why they did that bad thing, and I would probably do the same in their shoes’. Pity is saying, ‘I understand why you did that bad thing but there’s no way I would do it myself, and most people wouldn’t either.’ So people who are annoyed that they had to play as Abby are annoyed because even after a mile in her shoes didn’t agree with her and wouldn’t have done what she did. But I don’t think that annoyance stems from bad writing. My view is it was never the intent of the writing to make you agree with Abby.
howardmoon1234 Imma pretend you didn’t just mention those two mediums of storytelling in the same sentence and move on with my day
21:12 Those people weren't killed by Ellie. The first WLF Ellie killed was Jordan (Scarface), who Abby saw still alive at the Stadium before heading out. While it's possible that some of those were killed by Tommy, I'm guessing that most of those were in fact killed by Scars.
"She gained something: her humanity."
I've never smashed subscribe so fast.
Ikr
really? i face palmed pretty hard
I must admit that Jesse junior makes more sense than Jesse Joel lmaoo
I just want to know one thing , where's the giraffe I miss him/her
the giraffe represents innocence there is no innocence in this game ellie murders so many people during the game
There's one in the children's library. I gotchu.
TH-cam recommended this to me because I've been reading a lot on LoU2 after the game. I liked the game. I understood the story. And I was sad to see so many people unable to see my point of view.... this is a beautiful piece. Love your deconstruction of the game. Subscribed to your channel for this type of content. Unique stuff. Would like to see more games/movies and other popular art deconstructed by you.
Glad you enjoyed it! I'll definitely be taking a look at other stories in the future, just have to find the next topic that I can talk about at length.
@@SuggestiveGaming after starting ghost of sushi (a great game still) its hard to think of a story that could provide discussions quite this intruiging but would still love to hear your opinion!
unfortunately I haven’t had much time to play it (and the combat doesn’t really gel with me) so idk if I’ll be making a video on it. thanks so much for the suggestion though
I understand you liking the game people have a right to their own opinion but there is a reason people criticize this game. As I said you have a right to your own opinion but the story doesn't make sense, why would Ellie let Abby go the whole point was to kill her for revenge, also Joel saved abby. What's the point of killing him, it dosent make sense
@@liamkain8691I will try and answer your questions at least what I got from playing the game. The reason Abby went to Jackson was because she was obsessed with killing Joel throughout the game u can see that Abby never surpassed her father's death she continuosly has nightmares about it and it ruined her relationships specially with Owen. By killing Joel she thought she would finally find closure but that doesn't happen instead her nightmares continue and they only disappear after she helps Yara and Let.
I think the reason y Ellie let Abby go was because she understood that killing Abby wouldn't have brought her closure. Throughout her journey we can see that she wasn't after Abby because of revenge but instead she felt REGRET. Regret because she pushed Joel away. Her last memory of him is him bleeding but just before she kills Abby she sees Joel alive and playing his gee-tar. It's at this point that she finds some closure . In a way she sees her relationship with Joel in Abby and Lev and she understood that killing her wouldn't have helped her surpass his death the same way that Abby couldn't surpass her father's death by killing Joel. Basically Ellie and Abby are two sides of the same coin.
I know this is pretty long but this was what I got from the game but it's all a matter of perspective
This is another masterpiece from naughty dog. Its a 10/10 for me.
Same here loveing it so far I’m close to finishing it I think it will be another 11/10
"Too much grass" - IGN 10/10
9/10 for me
8/10
The difference between the 1st and the 2nd game is that it is abundantly clear as to why Joel saves Ellie, it’s NOT as clear as to why Ellie spares Abby. The line of demarcation is clearly defined in the 1st and not in the 2nd. That is what makes the 2nd game harder to swallow.
This video needs to be shared everywhere. You articulate my feelings about the game in ways I couldn’t.
All I can say is this is an incredible video. Had a lot of these same thoughts but couldn't articulate them correctly. Was engaged and eager to keep watching the entire time because of how well spoken you were about the issues and the reactions to "issues"
Idk what y’all talking about but I thought the story was good and I enjoyed playing the game
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣 you and two other people like this story.
@@Infamous1892 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣id say it’s a bit more then that bud
Neil has said that the team had a large handful of trans people consult with the team and discuss Lev's depiction in great detail in their efforts to be respectful to the trans community
And they did great. I didn’t think about Lev being trans because it was handled in such a subtle way.
Yup, and the actor who plays Lev (Ian Alexander) is even trans himself. Naughty Dog did a lot to make sure that they were portraying a trans character in the right way.
I did finished the game but still i dont get it very well, my main language is not english but i just love playing in the original language. Is Lev a girl who wants to be a boy?
@@RatedRLoquender Lev is a trans girl. The way you describe would generally be considered offensive/crude, but I realize that’s partially due to a language barrier. So, yes, Lev was basically born a girl and transitioned to being a boy
@@mattskinner846 Oh ok ok I got it, thank you.
i play tlou 2 and it's AMAZING. 10/10
I would say Ellie really was feeling more guilt and regret when she was chasing abby for not mending things with joel and didnt know how to handle all of that until she learns forgiveness and closure. She can also get back with Dina and have a future. The ending and game was amazing and also, THANK YOU for finally offering a real review without butchering the story even if i disagree with your personal opinion on it. Yours and girlfriend reviews are the best.
I really enjoyed your story analysis.
The analysis of Joel's guitar playing almost made me cry.
You helped me understand a lot. Thank you very much.
Many people in South Korea are criticizing The Last of Us Part 2, and I was surprised.
It's a little funny to find that South Korea is criticizing similar parts.
I really liked this word on your TH-cam.
"if video games are art, as many claim they should be recognized as, then we need to treat them as such."
"Art is meant to be observed and interpreted personally."
Now I realize that games are really art.
Your final thoughts section is so ON POINT! Its what i have been saying for years! You can objectively critique everything, and just because you dont like something that doesnt mean its objectively bad, the same way that if you do like it, it doesnt mean its objectively good.
A lot of people fail to understand this, especially when it comes to writing/stories.
Can we just take a moment appreciate how well such a gorgeous looking game runs on a 7 year old console?
This was the most clear and concise videos pointing out the many criticisms I've seen in a while. It really gave me some clarity on this story.
I honestly prefer this game, the story is much more interesting, there are a few things I’d change but I still love what naughty dog is trying to tell.
🤢🤢🤢🤮
I don't think it's the better game, but it's certainly more impactful. I can't stop thinking about this shit. I haven't played anything for days, because every other game looks so "mundane" right now, and that's something that just the first Dark Souls was able to do to me.
Sure there are several problems, but what ND does right, they're the best at doing it. Period.
Right now tlou3 looks like a sure thing, I cannot wait to see what new theme they will come with. I just hope Amy Hennig is back to nd or Neil Druckmann just let someone else write it.
Literally God Go back to fifa
Literally God 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮 @ your entitled ass comment
Literally God oh no I’ve upset people
Those 2 punches by Ellie after Abby bites her fingers off were savage.
Even though Joel physically dies in the beginning I think Ellie is metaphorically dead by the end of it. It was all for nothing, and she did end up alone; her worst fear. I know people hate this outcome but it’s very poetic and powerful, like a cautionary tale. No one won.
Yeah and another thing to think about is how, if Ellie didn’t go after Abby in the end, karma might of killed her. Abby was about to die on the beach until Ellie technically saved her. She didn’t attack right away cause she probably saw her defeated in that moment
Abby won, she got revenge, got saved by the person whose life she destroyed and gave PTSD, ends up with Lev and gets to start a new life free of any charges.
@@robr9105 And that is exactly what completly demolishes the point of the game, cause if revenge is bad how exactly is it that revenge is exactly what saves Abby (both Abby revenge on Joel and ellie's revenge on Abby). Its a stupid story, trying to paint it as philosophical is just a shallow way to defend bad writting. The thing has 388 plot conviniences or more (it starts with the mother of them, with Joel simply stumbling on Abby) and undermines its own point when the one not seaking revenge in the beggining ends with absolutly nothing, and emotional wreck and without carrying out revenge, and the one that starts the whole thing ends with everythign she could possibly end with and is even saved by the person whose life she wrecked.
DakonBlackblade2 she still paid the price after she killed Joel by losing her friends. Ellie might of lost more but life doesn’t balance stuff like that. It’s just the way it is
DakonBlackblade2 I like it. I thought it played out realistically. Honestly, if I was Ellie, I would of let the whole thing go completely. But if I did get to the point of killing Abby, I’d probably let her live too. That’s just me as a person and lots of people just won’t understand. I think that’s what is causing lots of controversy. Cause people are different and this story kinda exposes the difference in personality of people. I don’t believe in revenge. But sometimes you can be blinded by it, right up to the point where you realize it wasn’t worth it.
The 12 hours of Abby felt like a dlc in my opinion. Like her half of the game was completely disconnected from Ellie’s half. I’d either have the game switch between the characters on a day to day basis or have Abby’s half more involved with Ellie’s. Perhaps have her realize the girl from Jackson is back killing her friends, have her mourn them and have her seemingly taken over by revenge only to once again show mercy. Lev can be her beacon of light through her mourning. The entire ‘Abby is such a good person’ concept was way too on the nose for me. I also don’t find her relationship with Lev growing so quickly believable.
I am pretty sure that was the intention. They wanted you to spend the whole 10 hours with Abby, instead of switching from one character to another. They wanted you to dive into her life. Not to mention that it would have been very much disjointed if they wanted to tell the story that way.
Oh man, I will use your video in every TLOU2 conversation I'm having, you managed to build very structured argument instead of chaotic swarm of thoughts I had after finishing the game. Thank you for you work with this, I bet it will be wildly underestimated for quite some time, before the heads are cooler
I just want to say that Joel knew he was going to die because he killed a lot of people. Also I think the pointed of this game story is " Revenge is never bitter sweet"
God, I'm so, SOOO glad someone made a video like this. A full thought, during more than 12 minutes. I personally loved the story, and people just have to stop saying that something is bad written just cause you don't like how it went. Thank you man, you're the really the first one to bring some objective and good analysis to this game.
I'm grateful too because I love the game and the story made sense to me. When I beat TLOU1 I didn't think they'd make a sequel but if they did I knew Joel had to died. Ellie says to Dina in Seattle that "Joel crossed a lot of people". I hope we get a TLOU3. If they keep this release schedule up I'll be freaking 40 when/of it comes out 😭
well, I totally agree that sth isn't bad written just cause most people didn't like it. However, it's a video game, so it's supposed to make us have fun and enjoy it and the way they made us play (for at least 10 hours) as the character who killed Joel (and not killing her in the end) doesn't help with that
Maybe if you stopped seing Abby as "the character that killed Joel" you'd have a better time, you can't just disregard a character because you don't like them
I wasn't a big fan of the story either but I appreciated the risks it was trying to take... kinda reminded me of The Last Jedi in that respect... it wasn't for me in the end but it tried to switch things up and I can respect it for that
THANK YOU!
Like at least we have a developer that takes risks. If devs just gave what the fans demand, its fan service with no integrity.
I didnt like Last Jedi mainly because I thought it was boring. Yet, I still respected they did something new.
I actually did love TLOU 2 but totally understand those that didnt.
I have to respectfully disagree. This game, as unique as it is, is not comparable to the LJ in any way. This game tried something new and it was effective. The LJ was a mess that had no goal, no vision, and was a shell of a long lost idea.
The Last of Us 2 reminds me alot of Neo-Westerns like ‘Hell or High Water’, or ‘No Country for Old Men’.
Except no country for old men is well structured and doesnt leave you hanging for 10 hours, you actually get to like and understand every character and its way easier to digest than the last of us 2. Havent watched hell or high water tho.
Believe me, No country is my favorite movie after Interstellar and I can tell that tlou2 was prtty badly structured. I didnt give a damn about Joel dying before I saw how he died, I thought that his death would be more meaningfull throughout the story and more beautifully impactfull, but it got the impact element in a very unpleasant way. The timing of his death and part of his limbs almost hanging, his skull deformed, were things we didnt have to see, yet they showed them to us, take Lee's death for example he was incapable of doing anything and he died off screen as far as i remember and it made a very iconic death in the walking dead.
@@giomr7923 llewelyn's death in No country wasn't pleasant or held a beautiful impact. It held the same impact as Joel's. It's impact was reality. You don't get to pick your death, nor it's time or place. I like that this game didn't follow a fantasy setting where a, "Hero" gets to live or even die in noble fashion. Unpleasant was the point. It shows the realism of the world they live in. Just because someone dies tragically or horribly doesn't take from their story. It's sad and hurts but it doesn't make them or their story less. It's makes for a real one. IF I go over seas and die horribly, (I hope not), does that make my story less?
GioMR79 This is a massive gripe I have with the game. Having that random NPC spit on Joel to top it all off gives the impression that the game wants you to celebrate his death. Joel may be a flawed hero but he’s done enough good in people’s lives to warrant a better death at least. He didn’t just act as Ellie’s surrogate Dad in the middle of a raging apocalypse, he also taught his brother how to survive and raised him. Yet another person that owes Joel for being taught how to survive the nightmare they’re all in.
@@iwantgoals1566 Except that they expand upon that "NPC's" story massively, I would actually call Manny the second most likable character of that group (behind Owen). Him spitting on Joel isn't meant to make us celebrate his death, on the contrary, it's suppose to make us feel disgusted with this group, before we get their back stories and motivations.
"Flawed hero" is a charitable interpretation of Joel in the first game. Just considering the ending, he went on a murderous rampage, killing dozens of people including Abby's dad, in order to save someone that did not want to be saved. Ellie WANTED to die, even if just for the CHANCE of finding a cure. You can find his motivations compelling or sympathetic, but to call them heroic is just delusional.
Tommy partially HATES Joel in the first game for his actions prior to the game, stating how those actions gave him "nothing but nightmares" and how their survival "wasn't worth it". He learns to forgive Joel as he sees him become a better person through his relationship with Ellie, but to say his actions were admirable is laughable
No Country For Old Men inspired the first game
This review was fantastic. Completely unbiased and honest. I will agree that there are parts about the game I didn’t enjoy, but I honestly think the game is a 10 out of 10. I thoroughly enjoyed playing the game. It’s gorgeous. It’s brutal. It’s honest. And it’s terrifyingly real. I loved this review and it hits a lot of very valid points right on the head. Gg, man. I loved watching this review.
Honestly the game is a masterpiece 🙌