Tbh i just think pp needs to be coded in a way to really increase the value it puts on rythm and pattern complexity. The only reason there are only hrdt maps at the top is because these metrics cannot be valued properly
@@fruitilicousVT yeah they do an im excited for it. But its so complex that i would assume that it wont be the best representatilon. Also i hope they put pattern density in it somehow
I think having a higher cap would be cool, but I also think that trying to get around your reading problems by increasing the AR is quite pathetic. That's genuinely skill issue.
@@Panguk that didn't really seem like your main point but to give the benefit of the doubt, i don't think that means nomod or dt is the problem, it's a pp problem.
hot take probablt, but imo ar cap should not be increased. Instead players should learn how to read high density ar 10. I just hope that people will rank good maps above 10 stars. There isn't big varity of choice right now.
we should atleast have the option to have it above AR10, otherwise dt maps have a huge advantage over nm in higher stars, which imo makes no sense. but yeah ar10 high density reading as a skillset isnt exactly bad, but its bad that it's our only option
but why would anyone spend time learning how to read to play the hardest 30 maps when they can just play HDDT on one of the numerous easier maps? no one is going to learn density reading for aim skillcap other than maybe getting crazy scores on loved maps
@@givikap120 is it just hopeless for 9*+ NM maps to be viable for PP? DT always has the AR10+ and OD10+ advantage, and most ranked NM high star maps award far less than a DT map in the same range because of more complex (not pp friendly) patterns do you think it's feasible for this kind of nomod to ever be viable at a high level (without also undeservingly nerfing DT to the ground) ? perhaps the boundary for low AR bonus could scale up with the speed stat of the map or smth (or maybe it already does, i don't know)
@@xd3athclawx554 yeah ar 10+ for higher sr maps is definitely needed, i just hoped no one to put ar11 on 4.5* map saying "hey its gimmick" and make it ranked xd
It's fine just the way it is, u should have a good foundation on reading if ur able to play even 8 stars properly nomod (this doesn't include simple jumps)
Idk, just make difficulty adjustments mode in lazer ranked, but with correlation to its sliders. If ar lower than original -multiplier if higher - plus multiplier. Same for other sliders, like od etc. Just need a little bit of testings. A lot of people will come to lazer that way, huh.
I think the bigger problem with high sr nm map is the od cap (limits pp gain) as well as patterns being more difficult when compared to their dt counterparts with equivalent sr. Most top players who can play high sr can read high density as well so while ar is an issue it is not as much as the other 2 i mentioned
@@Panguk try the difficulty adjust on Lazer and see the difference in PP using custom OD, some 5* jump map can become 500pp just because the OD is set to 11, i know thats way too much but you get the idea
“unnecessarily difficult” is a bad take. There’s no problem on it, if anything is a thing to be adjusted by time IF people care enough. Is like saying hidden needs to hide the number so it will be more hidden. Density is a core-factor in osu! and allows notelock to force people to follow rythym. And i dont think we need AR12 for people to play nomod 400bpm so its “less dense”. But i get your point. Good video.
yeah, density IS a core factor in osu!, though i still think itd be nice for some maps to be more focused on actual difficulty instead of reading. i see your point though
@@Panguk Sadly this is where Lazer-ish things comes into place, so when you get to that, it will probably be a thing in lazer, as we can already see with the crazy mods on the newer version. Totally doable, but, we have a newer game that implements it better. I cant see that in stable without making it look like a “modded osu!”.
This would be cool but also the problem with nomod maps isnt really the density of AR10 as its fast enough and a decent cap, the problem is that no one maps (or ranks) anything high star without streams to bump the difficulty. There's like five 8+star nomod maps that arent streaming oriented.
@@Panguk it's not very hard at all, there are tons and tons of amazing nomod maps 8+stars that deserve ranking but dont get it because its not stream spam. Check apoq, seni, tsundereSam just to name a few. Yeah and true jumps are harder on lower ar but I still dont think they're not getting ranked due to density, especially on 8+stars
hear me out.. increase the AR limit set on maps to like 12 for redundancy and make it so mappers can change the AR of a map depending on the section, ofc with additional mapping rules implemented for mapping these kinds of things.
@@UmCaraNormalnumPlanetanormal personally disagree as if it's implemented well and flows it's probably better than having it static, but it'll take a bit for it to actually be good. Then again its mostly a visual thing and to my knowledge I don't think AR adjusts PP gained (just a guess tho not sure)
I think that the real killer of NM is notelock due to max OD10. The AR being low makes it more dense sure, but that is just a skill you would learn. You however can't learn OD10 on a map that should have OD11.1, especially if the bpm is super high. It is slightly better in lazer as notelock is gone, but in standard its basically impossible to pass something because of how badly the OD affects gameplay.
2:00 I massively disagree. That is not even close enough to “too dense” to be difficult to read. That is quite standard even in lower difficulties where AR isn’t always the same. Yes if this was AR 9 I would maybe agree. But 12* is not the limit for AR 10. Maybe at a higher star point or with really high bpm jump maps (short jumps faster speed) this might be a problem but (imo obv) the map you showed is not a good example. Maybe there are better examples of currently existing maps out there to showcase this point but this one is not that bad.
@@Panguk I still disagree on “much better”. Better? Sure, but it’s not that much. I can see the difference but it is not on the impact that would make a map noticeably more difficult. At worst maybe a mild annoyance and simply unconventional mapping.
nm is not hard. its just happens that in order for a map to be 10 stars, it needs 10 star patterns, which means its harder than 7star patterns that are just faster
@@Panguk ye i think the high density is basically the same as hard patterns, but there could still be like 240 bpm jumps that are like 10+ stars with a hard enough pattern (imagine bang bang but just more jumps)
I personally think AR should be a choice of a player , as everyone has a preference of AR , yes you can learn different AR's but i see it as this , why can Mania players change the note speed at will when we cant at all , while mania players gain pp with their preferred approach rate , and we cant choose our approach rate for our preference , since AR doesn't effect PP it shouldn't matter which we pick
I am pretty sure high AR NM can not be implemented due to the stable client still having spaghetti code and it being hard to implement new features in there. This isnt only limited to this either, some other possibilities are limited by this too, for example the current issue of scorev1'ing oneself (reason why CSR isnt implemented yet) aswell as the integer limit which prevents very long maps from being ranked
cant they make your highest pp score on a map to be the one that counts for pp? i dont see why it would be so hard to change from scorev1 to pp for that i could be wrong tho
@@sentimentalskyscraper do you know that if you take top10, put OD of each map they played to 10, and rerun every score - they all will gain a lot of pp and Sidetracked Day will become 1800pp so your statement is invalid
there’s no need to increase ar cap but players to improve reading. Many people nowadays(like 5 or even some 4 digits). would consider ar9 on a 210bpm nm1 a “low ar map”. and it was not like this before DT became this big
@@Ristive that’s what I’m saying. People nowadays are too weak in reading in average. it’s not like the thing is unreadable, it’s just the lack of reading skill and it’s becoming worse
this is probably the worst take that so many people agree with, the difference is so small that i cannot even tell but you are saying its unplayable? if you are playing at such a high level that nm ar cap is harmful then its not the cap, its your lack of reading, im 6 digit and i can read what you displayed just fine and my ez skill is bare bones, i have more than most but barely any
unplayable it is not, but AR10.6 is noticeably better. Like I said it might not be as bad NOW, but how are we gonna play 14/15* jumps or streams at AR10 some point in the future? My point is that dt is far more advantageous compared to nm, making a 12* nm map harder than a 12* dt map if we're talking pp
i always thought about that and i had a take even hotter. why can't we just have AR as a changable option? like osu mania has the speed with witch notes go in the game settings. i mean yeah that would ruin the point of different unique maps like oddloop, but on the other hand every map could be played like this if you want it. low ar have always been a niche gamestyle not for pp but for challenge. personally i hate 9.2 ar maps. call me a noob but i just cant read them, and with hr 5.2 cs is usually not fun for me too. if i want to have fun i will just make an unranked ar10 version of a map in osu trainer because i don't really care about pp and ranking. i believe all of my top plays are on the 3.5~ cs maps with hr lol. maybe its just me but i think variable ar would make osu such more fun game.
that because on standard AR and density work different than Scroll speed and density does. i dont know how to explain it its also just how the game is supposed to be played; mania and standard are completely different games. they only made scroll speed adjustable because otherwise rhythm gamers from other games would complain
DT ing a lower star map is easier than NoModing a higher star map, because the lower star map is made with easier patters than higher star maps, obviously. So the more the mods are, the easier the actual map is at the end with all the mods active.
@@Panguk i was not trying to make fun of the video the title is just really funny when taken out of context 😭😭 itd become a much larger problem for like dense 15 star maps sightreading to an extent would become a thing of the past
Hard Rock bringing stuff to AR10 is too slow now we need Death Metal to bring it up to 11.5
thats actually not a terrible idea
@@InkLynedmaybe like 10.5, 11.5 is unsightreadable lol
@@andr0as not unsightreadable, a small handful can read it with warm up. source-my friend avery (number 3 on reaction speed in osu skills leaderboard)
@@innerlichtotig9325ar11.5 is readable with warm-up, say that again
@@innerlichtotig9325im gonna touch you
Tbh i just think pp needs to be coded in a way to really increase the value it puts on rythm and pattern complexity. The only reason there are only hrdt maps at the top is because these metrics cannot be valued properly
im pretty sure they are reworking rythm in the next pprework
@@fruitilicousVT yeah they do an im excited for it. But its so complex that i would assume that it wont be the best representatilon. Also i hope they put pattern density in it somehow
they try to improve this every rework, but every rework a new broken meta pops up
I think ur not a stem or at least not a math/cs person because what you're describing is very difficult lol
well, part of the problem as well is NM/HR can only go up to AR10 and OD10, while there are bonuses for AR11 and OD11
I think having a higher cap would be cool, but I also think that trying to get around your reading problems by increasing the AR is quite pathetic. That's genuinely skill issue.
its more that theres no point in playing nm over dt for top players wanting to get pp
@@Panguk that didn't really seem like your main point but to give the benefit of the doubt, i don't think that means nomod or dt is the problem, it's a pp problem.
@@AscensionismOnOsu yes its a pp problem; this wouldnt be a problem if AR was factored into pp
@@Panguk OD as well, that's a whole other can of worms that the pp system wouldn't be able to figure out well enough atm.
@@Pangukar is factored into pp tho above ar10.3 you get increased pp
off topic your voice is actually nice to listen to
literally blushing rn
hot take probablt, but imo ar cap should not be increased. Instead players should learn how to read high density ar 10. I just hope that people will rank good maps above 10 stars. There isn't big varity of choice right now.
we should atleast have the option to have it above AR10, otherwise dt maps have a huge advantage over nm in higher stars, which imo makes no sense.
but yeah ar10 high density reading as a skillset isnt exactly bad, but its bad that it's our only option
players will not learn how to read because every type of reading except High AR reading gives 0 pp
they will play HDDT instead
but why would anyone spend time learning how to read to play the hardest 30 maps when they can just play HDDT on one of the numerous easier maps?
no one is going to learn density reading for aim skillcap other than maybe getting crazy scores on loved maps
100% agree with this, people should learn to read maps in general
@@givikap120 is it just hopeless for 9*+ NM maps to be viable for PP? DT always has the AR10+ and OD10+ advantage, and most ranked NM high star maps award far less than a DT map in the same range because of more complex (not pp friendly) patterns
do you think it's feasible for this kind of nomod to ever be viable at a high level (without also undeservingly nerfing DT to the ground) ? perhaps the boundary for low AR bonus could scale up with the speed stat of the map or smth (or maybe it already does, i don't know)
An HR extra mod that pushes everything to AR11 would be cool, but i believe only possible on Laser
I can't even read ar 10 because it's too fast... and now there's maps that has higher ar then 10? Hope that dosn't happen on lower sr maps xd
definitely wont dw
low SR maps are not dense enough to feature anything above AR10, its like the opposite of a map being too dense because of the low AR.
@@xd3athclawx554 yeah ar 10+ for higher sr maps is definitely needed, i just hoped no one to put ar11 on 4.5* map saying "hey its gimmick" and make it ranked xd
It's fine just the way it is, u should have a good foundation on reading if ur able to play even 8 stars properly nomod (this doesn't include simple jumps)
Im chilling with my 5 star AR 9 maps at #215000 :)
AR should be a mod the player can control, like in every other rhythm game ever
I think that AR should be customizable like in other rhythm games such as project sekai, and be taken out of the pp calculations entirely
Idk, just make difficulty adjustments mode in lazer ranked, but with correlation to its sliders. If ar lower than original -multiplier if higher - plus multiplier. Same for other sliders, like od etc. Just need a little bit of testings. A lot of people will come to lazer that way, huh.
I think the bigger problem with high sr nm map is the od cap (limits pp gain) as well as patterns being more difficult when compared to their dt counterparts with equivalent sr. Most top players who can play high sr can read high density as well so while ar is an issue it is not as much as the other 2 i mentioned
@@khangtheasian OD doesnt affect pp right
@@Panguk it absolutely does in an exponential fashion as well
@@Panguk try the difficulty adjust on Lazer and see the difference in PP using custom OD, some 5* jump map can become 500pp just because the OD is set to 11, i know thats way too much but you get the idea
@@Pangukod makes the biggest difference
“unnecessarily difficult” is a bad take. There’s no problem on it, if anything is a thing to be adjusted by time IF people care enough.
Is like saying hidden needs to hide the number so it will be more hidden.
Density is a core-factor in osu! and allows notelock to force people to follow rythym.
And i dont think we need AR12 for people to play nomod 400bpm so its “less dense”.
But i get your point. Good video.
yeah, density IS a core factor in osu!, though i still think itd be nice for some maps to be more focused on actual difficulty instead of reading.
i see your point though
@@Panguk Sadly this is where Lazer-ish things comes into place, so when you get to that, it will probably be a thing in lazer, as we can already see with the crazy mods on the newer version.
Totally doable, but, we have a newer game that implements it better. I cant see that in stable without making it look like a “modded osu!”.
AR is up to 11 on Lazer, if you want to test
This would be cool but also the problem with nomod maps isnt really the density of AR10 as its fast enough and a decent cap, the problem is that no one maps (or ranks) anything high star without streams to bump the difficulty. There's like five 8+star nomod maps that arent streaming oriented.
because its really hard to 1. Rank jumps because bns generally hate those (saggin) and 2. Jumps are much harder on low ar than streams
@@Panguk it's not very hard at all, there are tons and tons of amazing nomod maps 8+stars that deserve ranking but dont get it because its not stream spam. Check apoq, seni, tsundereSam just to name a few. Yeah and true jumps are harder on lower ar but I still dont think they're not getting ranked due to density, especially on 8+stars
im talking more 10*+ cuz thats where ar starts to become more of an issue
@@Panguk ah yeah then density could be a problem forsure. hopefully they do something about it in lazer
hear me out.. increase the AR limit set on maps to like 12 for redundancy and make it so mappers can change the AR of a map depending on the section, ofc with additional mapping rules implemented for mapping these kinds of things.
good idea, though it'll be almost impossible to implement in stable's spaghetti code
@@Panguk yeah for sure it would have to be a lazer thing unless peppy and the lads on the coding side can find a way
Changing the AR depending on the section feels like bullshit and something that should only be used on loved maps ngl
@@UmCaraNormalnumPlanetanormal personally disagree as if it's implemented well and flows it's probably better than having it static, but it'll take a bit for it to actually be good. Then again its mostly a visual thing and to my knowledge I don't think AR adjusts PP gained (just a guess tho not sure)
I think that the real killer of NM is notelock due to max OD10. The AR being low makes it more dense sure, but that is just a skill you would learn. You however can't learn OD10 on a map that should have OD11.1, especially if the bpm is super high. It is slightly better in lazer as notelock is gone, but in standard its basically impossible to pass something because of how badly the OD affects gameplay.
Oh the notelock definitely affects it too, thankfully its going to be gone in lazer
I can't even read ar 10 at 13k pls dont raise the AR on my NM maps thats all I got 😅
2:00 I massively disagree. That is not even close enough to “too dense” to be difficult to read. That is quite standard even in lower difficulties where AR isn’t always the same. Yes if this was AR 9 I would maybe agree. But 12* is not the limit for AR 10. Maybe at a higher star point or with really high bpm jump maps (short jumps faster speed) this might be a problem but (imo obv) the map you showed is not a good example. Maybe there are better examples of currently existing maps out there to showcase this point but this one is not that bad.
its not that bad no, but AR10.6 fit it much better than AR10
@@Panguk I still disagree on “much better”. Better? Sure, but it’s not that much. I can see the difference but it is not on the impact that would make a map noticeably more difficult. At worst maybe a mild annoyance and simply unconventional mapping.
If you have 2X dt on lazer With hard rock Im pretty sure it will be AR 12, or was it 11.5? Idk.
nm is not hard. its just happens that in order for a map to be 10 stars, it needs 10 star patterns, which means its harder than 7star patterns that are just faster
mostly true, but i still think AR has something to do with why ranked 300bpm+ nm jump maps arent a thing
@@Panguk ye i think the high density is basically the same as hard patterns, but there could still be like 240 bpm jumps that are like 10+ stars with a hard enough pattern (imagine bang bang but just more jumps)
I personally think AR should be a choice of a player , as everyone has a preference of AR , yes you can learn different AR's but i see it as this , why can Mania players change the note speed at will when we cant at all , while mania players gain pp with their preferred approach rate , and we cant choose our approach rate for our preference , since AR doesn't effect PP it shouldn't matter which we pick
I am pretty sure high AR NM can not be implemented due to the stable client still having spaghetti code and it being hard to implement new features in there. This isnt only limited to this either, some other possibilities are limited by this too, for example the current issue of scorev1'ing oneself (reason why CSR isnt implemented yet) aswell as the integer limit which prevents very long maps from being ranked
cant they make your highest pp score on a map to be the one that counts for pp? i dont see why it would be so hard to change from scorev1 to pp for that
i could be wrong tho
there are no problems with it its perfect (I haven't watched the video)
conclusion: everyone should just learn to read ar 8
oh also no its not perfect, its capped at od 10 which means while dt players can farm way more because of higher od, nm players cant
we should all learn AR7.2 and play 20* maps on EZ!!!
@@sentimentalskyscraper do you know that if you take top10, put OD of each map they played to 10, and rerun every score - they all will gain a lot of pp and Sidetracked Day will become 1800pp
so your statement is invalid
i'm chillin with my AR4 ez mod
same ezht enjoyer
doesn't lazer already have extended limits
there’s no need to increase ar cap but players to improve reading. Many people nowadays(like 5 or even some 4 digits). would consider ar9 on a 210bpm nm1 a “low ar map”. and it was not like this before DT became this big
I'm 10.7k and 9.6 and below is low AR, AR9 is like a reading map
@@Ristive that’s what I’m saying. People nowadays are too weak in reading in average. it’s not like the thing is unreadable, it’s just the lack of reading skill and it’s becoming worse
@@weedhead9487never understood in what way low ar should help you improve, never worked for me
The map at 1:56 i think is fine with ar 10
Sounds like a skill issue (TL;DR I like NM dense reading and can play ar7-10.5)
I cant play NM aim, but with HR I can 50/50 fc it whyyyyy???
you can't read low AR lol
@R8Spike comment is 1 month old but I can play AR 8(no gamma) and sometimes easy mod, I just cant aim comfortably in normal AR from the get go
10.6 with nomode?
this is probably the worst take that so many people agree with, the difference is so small that i cannot even tell but you are saying its unplayable? if you are playing at such a high level that nm ar cap is harmful then its not the cap, its your lack of reading, im 6 digit and i can read what you displayed just fine and my ez skill is bare bones, i have more than most but barely any
unplayable it is not, but AR10.6 is noticeably better. Like I said it might not be as bad NOW, but how are we gonna play 14/15* jumps or streams at AR10 some point in the future? My point is that dt is far more advantageous compared to nm, making a 12* nm map harder than a 12* dt map if we're talking pp
i always thought about that and i had a take even hotter.
why can't we just have AR as a changable option? like osu mania has the speed with witch notes go in the game settings.
i mean yeah that would ruin the point of different unique maps like oddloop, but on the other hand every map could be played like this if you want it. low ar have always been a niche gamestyle not for pp but for challenge.
personally i hate 9.2 ar maps. call me a noob but i just cant read them, and with hr 5.2 cs is usually not fun for me too. if i want to have fun i will just make an unranked ar10 version of a map in osu trainer because i don't really care about pp and ranking.
i believe all of my top plays are on the 3.5~ cs maps with hr lol. maybe its just me but i think variable ar would make osu such more fun game.
that because on standard AR and density work different than Scroll speed and density does. i dont know how to explain it
its also just how the game is supposed to be played; mania and standard are completely different games. they only made scroll speed adjustable because otherwise rhythm gamers from other games would complain
also in lazer theres difficulty adjust, u can just change ar to whatever u want with that mod
DT ing a lower star map is easier than NoModing a higher star map, because the lower star map is made with easier patters than higher star maps, obviously. So the more the mods are, the easier the actual map is at the end with all the mods active.
Yomi Yori is just too slow maybe need to add DT
@@nexington th-cam.com/video/3x_C2ajYtuI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=-35sjQP5xygsXAfC
@@Panguk WHO IS THIS GUY WHAT
@@Panguk i was not trying to make fun of the video the title is just really funny when taken out of context 😭😭 itd become a much larger problem for like dense 15 star maps sightreading to an extent would become a thing of the past
ur voice is so cute
just farm ez