Hey man! Liked the video, good rundown of the bike! Just a couple of pointers from experience with this bike; having built a couple, you don’t need to buy two chains for most of the frame sizes, it’s only at the XL size that you need a whole chain, plus 3-4 links. Also, it’s a remarkably quiet bike, when built properly! Another interesting point is that there is the ability to access the inside of the DownTube via a small ‘hatch’ located by the BB! Enough room for storing a tube and some other spares in there, very neat!
That's good to know, thanks for the input. I remember when I upgraded my bike's drivetrain last time the chain only included about 4-5 more links than I needed so I just suspected that running over an idler would necessitate a super long chain....or two chains. Very cool to hear about the downtube access! I wonder why this wasn't highlighted more on the Forbidden website and other sites.
Having ridden a HSP for many years, I have to say you missed one significant con (IMO). That is - the rearward wheel trajectory results in a lengthening wheel base as the bike goes into it’s travel. While the idler location cancels out the lengthening if the chain, the lengthening of the wheel base does make the HSP feel less playful as it’s generally harder to jump, manual, and bunny hop than a FS bike with a traditional rear wheel trajectory. For some people this won’t be a big deal as the square edged bump compliance helps the bike go faster, and maintain better traction through rough chundery sections. It all depends how you like to ride I guess. Great video. Keep it up.
There have been a couple comments about this. Having not ridden the bike myself I didn't know if this would cause such issues, but seems like the lengthening chainstay does have a pronounced effect. Thanks for the input.
Glad you noticed! A lot of time was taken to put together a unique intro sequence. Always good to experiment :)
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I think it might be nice to have videos explaining in detail how anti-rise, anti-squat, leverage ratio, wheel path, chain growth are calculated, and to give examples of how it affects riding. I like your engineering approach to the suspension systems and the technical depth, that is pretty much unique in this channel.
Hey, do you reckon you could make a video explaining what is ideal on a bike of a certain genre (trail, enduro, DH) then explain which linkage design is best suited for those characteristics?
Unfortunately there is no 'ideal' as everyone has different opinions on what they want their bike to feel like. I suspect if I made this video there would be tons of negative comments from everyone saying I'm wrong, for different reasons.
Excellent analysis! I'm also a big fan of this design. But one minor con you missed is the rearward axle path does still result much more chain growth on the lower portion of the chain between the derailleur and chainring than a conventional design. It's probably not a very significant problem, but it may add a little extra friction in the suspension from the clutch or increased wear on your derailleur.
Very slightly. The chainstay lengthening on the bottom is counteracted by the chain length shortening on the bottom as the wheel/cassette rotates backward relative to the swingarm under static compression
@@TrailPOV you'll be seeing some more manufacturers in the future. The system makes totally sense and axle path will be the next big thing in suspension
@@hummer694life I personally think electronics are going to be the next big innovation. Much like they have made their way into the moto world, so too do I think fox live valve will become more common place...for good or bad
1:20 this basically means that in this system the antisquat is not affected by a gear at the cassette, because the chainring-to-pulley chain segment stays the same. nice benefit! by the way in the recent pinkbike review of a deviate highlander with the same layout (high pulley on a swingarm) they have a graph with different antisquat figures for different cogs on a cassette, wich clearly means that they used the cassette-to-pulley segment of a chain in their calculations (that would be correct if a pulley was mounted on a front triangle). I'm on your side with this one, just wanted to mention.
Can you share your resources? 3 years after posting this vid I still can't find a clear answer on chainline swingarm intersection for calculating anti squat on single swingarm high pivot idler bike. Recent models found in the online library from Linkage is giving me mixed answers.
I had the luck of testing one... They're actually super quite, the extra idler paired with the that e-thirteen chain tensioner makes everything tight. Plus it has hefty chain protection, incredible details to frame construction and finish. Superb mountain bike
Thanks very much. I've got a Scott Genius LT from several years ago. I'm not against looking at other bike styles, but so far the voting has mostly led to enduro bikes because of their need for excellent pedaling AND downhill performance. Enduro bikes are so versatile that I find knowing what the engineers have focused on while compromising on other things is hugely beneficial.
My suggestions for downhill bikes analysis are specialized demo 29(4 bar design, winner of 2019 UCI dh world cup), commencal supreme dh 29(Amaury Pierron won uci dh cup in 2017, 2018 and was 2nd 2019, single high pivot design with idler pulley) and GT fury(combines 4-bar design with idler pulley).
It is hard to get a high pivot right but Forbidden have done it with the Druid. The only other high pivot I like (a lot) is the highly original Craftworks ENR.
Hi there. Excelent video by the way. I would like to lear more about high pivots. Can you point me to some materials that you have used for force analysis? Trying to wrp my head around the anti-squat, and the way you present it here, I would say that it should be always the same, no matter which gear the bike is in. But the simulations in Linkage X3 proved me wrong. What am I missing? Thanks.
Excellent reviews, glad to see someone breaking down the suspension geometry. Very cool! Loved this review. If you can, do a breakdown of the Deviate Highlander 150 and the new 2021 Cannondale Jekyll, both high-pivots.
Do you think having a rearward axle path is that great? Even though it moves out of the way for impacts it also slams right back into them when returning... seems like an axle path that goes straight up would be ideal? Ik it is also good for adding stability by increasing wheel base tho. Thoughts 🤷♂️
Actually no, as in most cases you will be over and past the obstacle by the time the suspension decompresses. Also, the axle path is still more vertical than rearward. In any case, you'd have to hit a really badly timed sequence of squared-edged hits to get the kind of kickback you're concerned about, and this suspension would still be more aligned with the force vector of those hits (a desirable thing) than rears with more vertical axle paths.
Hi, I have a question regarding pedal kickback, that really confuses me: does it even matter when going fast down the hill? Once the rear wheel goes away from the sprocket the casette would simply rotate forward, as the wheel probably rotates even faster, therefore not causing any pedal kickback. Am I right? If that was true, all the discussion about chainless feeling wouldn't make any sense.
So you're not the first person to comment about this and I did some research a couple of weeks ago about this topic in particular. If you are rolling fast downhill I have been convinced enough that the pedal kickback would not be a big deal. However, if you are doing technical climbing at much slower speeds it still does come into play. But I'm open to others comments about this topic.
@@TrailPOV I think this is correct and it is consistent with my experience riding a high chain growth bike for several years now (Intense Recluse). I only notice it while pedalling over chunk.
you are only going to feel pedal kickback when pedaling... If you drop the rear of the bike, the pedals will counter rotate but the force is so small that you would never feel it.
@@hummer694life Yes, that's clear, because the chain is under tension. But idler pulley is the most popular within DH bikes. Check world cup videos, they only pedal on flat, open sections. On the other hand we saw some riders winning after their chain snapped(gwin in Leogang, i think it was 2015?)
I agree with klstrucker, no way the suspension would move faster than the coasting of the freehub and pull the chain. I mean who pedals while hitting a huge bump anyway?
Check out the Craftworks ENR. It's a high idler pulley design with the pulley position changing through the shock stroke. It's also a dw link type suspension design and has 5cm of rearward wheel path. Chain length required is exactly the length of a Sram 12 speed chain so no need to shorten or lengthen the chain.
I'm not sure you really need a changing pulley... it's there to make the AS the same throughout the travel. Who needs high AS deep in the travel? More things to go wrong and make noise imo.
Really nicely explained, but I haven't cleared the thought about the forces from the chain that run through between the idler on the Swingarm and the High Pivot... anyways a review for the V2 Forbidden Suspension Design would be really interesting it seems, even if they are that similar, but thats what makes it as interesting I guess :)
Fantastic video! Any idea what would happen if you removed the lower most linkage (connecting the swing arm to the shock driving link) in-place of a Horst-style pivot towards the rear axle?
I'm not sure I completely understand. Any changes to the chainstay would change the leverage ratio with the shock but have no effect on the wheelpath as that's defined by the seatstay as it's a single pivot design.
These type of video on your channel are insane, is that a private bike geometry analysis software that you don't share or how can I get it? That's so interesting !
@@TrailPOV Hey again haha, so you don't use Linkagex3? I heard about this software because that's create to determine anti squat, anti rise etc of bike but the software is kinda old
Thanks. Given the progressive nature of the leverage ratio throughout it's travel you could put in a coil, assuming that it'll fit in the cramped quarters at the bottom.
Hi great vid! Could you lead me to some article explaining why the force is transferred from the idler and the chainring and not the cassette and the idler? I can’t understand why that is. Thanks!
Thanks. I'll try to explain it without having to find and article that fully describes it: The pulley is mounted to the swingarm, so the only external force to the swingarm is between the idler and chainring. The forces between the idler and cassette are equal and opposite because they're on the same object and an object can't apply a force to itself and cause itself to move.
Unfortunately I cannot look at every bike. Perhaps take a look at my videos on the Scott Ransom and Specialized Enduro to get any idea of some traits of 4-bars.
Does the fact that bikes have a sag point ever undermine the rearward travel of the axle path? i imagine this design in particular doesnt have too much issue with that Thanks much for breaking down sus design in a very manageable and understandable way! bring the knowledge to the masses!
@@TrailPOV but couldnt the sag point of certain bikes (perhaps not the druid) be above the rearmost point, which in turn doesnt allow the wheel to go up and over obstacles as easily as marketing suggests? or does that change when the bike is being ridden vs just being sat on?
@@ek8507 Now I see what you were referring to in your question. Yes some frames with a wheelpath that arcs forward early in the travel will have a more forward wheel trajectory from sag onward that might not be ideal.
If building the frame up, how would it hold up with a coil shock with a progressive spring (love my Bomber Z1 on my hardtail and thinking about pairing it with a Bomer CR for a build)?
Well from what i heard from R&D @specilized. they say that anti rise above 100% or around it is actually not ideal as you lose traction. They say the sweetspot for going down is somewhere around 50 %
Each bike mfg definately has a different vision. Some prefer squishy bikes that absorb everything, others prefer firmer bikes so they can pop and lean into the bike without it absorbing their input.
Do you believe the high anti rise values of high pivot bikes are compromises or intentional? All of the high pivot bikes I am looking at have very high anti rise values (Deviate Highlander especially). Is this something I should be concerned about
I think they're probably a compromise. You should take a look at the Norco Range though....I have it available for free over on Patreon. Much lower anti-rise values due to the virtual high pivot.
Could you comment on the Eminent AFS? I can't find a whole lot on the Lawwill's suspension type which it is related to. Granted not exactly the same design but certainly share some genes.
Did you mean chain 'slap' the second time not 'growth'? From others comments it seems like while under load the chain slap is not really an issue, but some online reviewers have commented about the chain slap when heading downhill due to the chain being so close to the seatstay...I can't confirm that though.
@@TrailPOV Yes, sorry for my brain fart. I was thinking lack of chain growth would minimize chain slap. And if that was true it would allow lower chain tension and help minimize the friction penalty of the idler gear. Perhaps that is true if the bigger problem is low chain clearance at the seatstay? Thanks for your awesome video series!
Could you do the Druid V2? And/or the Deviate Highlander? I think the Deviate has far less friction in the system. I know I'm not a part of the Patreon, my apologies.
Because the idler is right next to the pivot. So relative to the bottom bracket the rear axle is moving rearward, but relative to the high pivot is isn't moving rearward at all, and the idler compared with the bottom bracket is only moving a small amount
Ok I have never even thought about rear suspension before so am a complete noob. I was wondering if any rear suspension is lockable for uphill's? I should say any rear suspension bike worth getting maybe.
One issue I’ve heard with high pivot rear ward axel path designs is during hard cornering when suspension is compressed you’re actually lengthening the wheelbase which is going to cause the bike to feel like it is trying to stand itself up. Has anyone who has ridden one had this experience?
So anyone that’s ridden one. The main complaint that worries me was that it was difficult to get off the ground/manual and that it was a bit inefficient. Have you guys been able to notice that?
I have about 200km on mine so far. I wouldn't call it a "poppy" bike but certainly no worse than other bikes I've ridden. Unless poppy and playful is your primary characteristic your looking for in a bike, I wouldn't worry about it with the Druid. And I certainly wouldn't call it inefficient, it climbs very well.
I've never ridden one, but I've read some reviews. I think the reason for what you mentioned may be, that once compressing the suspension for manual you increase chainstay lenght.
@@klstrucker930419 I agree with this thinking also. The rearward axle path and subsequent chainstay length is going to increase the length the bike overall and push you further in front the rear axle thereby making it harder to keep the front end up.
Frankly? Most benefits of HP bikes come from gaining control over chain interferences with the idler pulley... thruth is: anti-squat, -rise, axle path, linkage ratio all work enormously well in a wide range of designs, actual pivot and virtual pivot placements. There are so many factors that put more value in favor of a good rear suspensions than the design itself, it’s almost obsolete which one you choose within the working parameters. Square edge compliance and remaining wheelbase sounds nice, but both also have a very ugly side to them as well. Speak of instantly changing COG or counter rotating forces on rear wheel. Since the determination of the single pivot sweet spot, a game changing design is yet to come.
shure there is no reason to better what is the status quo, but there is more marketing about those designs than actual benefits. My recommendation is: Always look at actual movement of rear wheel contact patch (the only data you will feel) matching movement of the shock through its travel (only data to determine shock response). You'll find how close those values are on any given design. It sounds weird, but anti-rise and anti-squad tend to be unrecognizable with a proper component spec and setup rather than the theoretical benefits or letdowns of the various designs. @@TrailPOV
Wow quite the bike! Any suspension design could be adapted to a long chain stay. All depends on how you'd like the bike to behave when climbing and descending.
I don't think it'd be any significantly heavier than any other bike. They took out pivots on the chainstay and added an idler which roughly cancels each other out. I'm sure they are in the process of developing a longer travel version.
Ge there. Just a heads up, your explanation for anti-squat with the chain idler on the rear triangle is still wrong. If what you said was true it would be constant for any gear, in reality it's more complex than that. There are two forces at play, chain ring to idler and idler to cassette.
While there are two forces, the one is an equal but opposite reaction force. Because the idler is connected to the swingarm it, the only force between the swingarm and front chainring is the vertical force. The horizontal force going between idler and cassette is an 'internal' force to that body
@@Jwmbike14 Many people including myself believe Linkage to incorrectly calculate high pivot values for AS. Most Ave come to the conclusion it assumes the idler is connected to the frame, not the swingarm.
@@TrailPOV I've questioned that as well. But, you also can't ignore a differing chainline (through gear change and suspension travel) in relation to the instant center...
Why is the character of this bike always described as planted, when suspension and geo numbers would point to poppy? Loved the numbers on the size M, but ride flat terrain where we have to create our own fun.
Pedal bob perhaps due to you hammering on the pedals and your body weight causing a bob, but if you have consistent smooth the pedal bob due to the chain tension is removed using a well-placed idler
This is half the story. Wait till you change the shock on one and see how well designed the pivot hardware etc is. Regardless of performance, it’s a lovely thing.
You have THE BEST suspension breakdown videos by far. I looove this stuff it's a shame you only have 5k subscribers.
Thanks very much. It's growing😀
Hey man! Liked the video, good rundown of the bike! Just a couple of pointers from experience with this bike; having built a couple, you don’t need to buy two chains for most of the frame sizes, it’s only at the XL size that you need a whole chain, plus 3-4 links. Also, it’s a remarkably quiet bike, when built properly! Another interesting point is that there is the ability to access the inside of the DownTube via a small ‘hatch’ located by the BB! Enough room for storing a tube and some other spares in there, very neat!
That's good to know, thanks for the input. I remember when I upgraded my bike's drivetrain last time the chain only included about 4-5 more links than I needed so I just suspected that running over an idler would necessitate a super long chain....or two chains. Very cool to hear about the downtube access! I wonder why this wasn't highlighted more on the Forbidden website and other sites.
Having ridden a HSP for many years, I have to say you missed one significant con (IMO). That is - the rearward wheel trajectory results in a lengthening wheel base as the bike goes into it’s travel. While the idler location cancels out the lengthening if the chain, the lengthening of the wheel base does make the HSP feel less playful as it’s generally harder to jump, manual, and bunny hop than a FS bike with a traditional rear wheel trajectory.
For some people this won’t be a big deal as the square edged bump compliance helps the bike go faster, and maintain better traction through rough chundery sections.
It all depends how you like to ride I guess.
Great video. Keep it up.
There have been a couple comments about this. Having not ridden the bike myself I didn't know if this would cause such issues, but seems like the lengthening chainstay does have a pronounced effect. Thanks for the input.
That was really informative, thanks so much! I like the new video design, it seems very professional and clean.
Glad you noticed! A lot of time was taken to put together a unique intro sequence. Always good to experiment :)
I think it might be nice to have videos explaining in detail how anti-rise, anti-squat, leverage ratio, wheel path, chain growth are calculated, and to give examples of how it affects riding. I like your engineering approach to the suspension systems and the technical depth, that is pretty much unique in this channel.
Thanks for the feedback. Between the 'What is pedal kickback?' and the Scott Ransom video it should explain most of that.
Hey, do you reckon you could make a video explaining what is ideal on a bike of a certain genre (trail, enduro, DH) then explain which linkage design is best suited for those characteristics?
Unfortunately there is no 'ideal' as everyone has different opinions on what they want their bike to feel like. I suspect if I made this video there would be tons of negative comments from everyone saying I'm wrong, for different reasons.
Excellent analysis! I'm also a big fan of this design. But one minor con you missed is the rearward axle path does still result much more chain growth on the lower portion of the chain between the derailleur and chainring than a conventional design. It's probably not a very significant problem, but it may add a little extra friction in the suspension from the clutch or increased wear on your derailleur.
Very slightly. The chainstay lengthening on the bottom is counteracted by the chain length shortening on the bottom as the wheel/cassette rotates backward relative to the swingarm under static compression
Appreciate this video! Every time I look at this bike, I scratch my head in confusion xD
Haha. I don't know why more companies aren't testing this design in their lineup.
@@TrailPOV you'll be seeing some more manufacturers in the future. The system makes totally sense and axle path will be the next big thing in suspension
@@hummer694life I personally think electronics are going to be the next big innovation. Much like they have made their way into the moto world, so too do I think fox live valve will become more common place...for good or bad
@@TrailPOV Because it's heavy and complicated.
@@klstrucker930419 I wouldn't imagine it's hugely heavier....it's only an extra bearing and pulley
1:20 this basically means that in this system the antisquat is not affected by a gear at the cassette, because the chainring-to-pulley chain segment stays the same. nice benefit! by the way in the recent pinkbike review of a deviate highlander with the same layout (high pulley on a swingarm) they have a graph with different antisquat figures for different cogs on a cassette, wich clearly means that they used the cassette-to-pulley segment of a chain in their calculations (that would be correct if a pulley was mounted on a front triangle). I'm on your side with this one, just wanted to mention.
Thanks for the input. Everything that I read indicated this was the correct way to do it and it made sense to me in the end 👍
Can you share your resources? 3 years after posting this vid I still can't find a clear answer on chainline swingarm intersection for calculating anti squat on single swingarm high pivot idler bike.
Recent models found in the online library from Linkage is giving me mixed answers.
YEESSSS - I was just wondering about this bike! Saw this bike on BC POV and wondered about its mechanics
Glad I could help
So far the druid was my dream bike and this video confirmed it, thanks!
Was your dream bike...does that mean you ended up buying one :)
@@TrailPOV No, I mean I wasn't sure, but this video confirmed it.
I had the luck of testing one... They're actually super quite, the extra idler paired with the that e-thirteen chain tensioner makes everything tight. Plus it has hefty chain protection, incredible details to frame construction and finish. Superb mountain bike
Thanks for the info!
Awesome effort. Would love a video on the Norco Range!
Thanks. You can join me over on Patreon if you'd like more bike data #shamelessplug
Haha, right all the way! This bike is so good. Riding it feels exactly as you describe it. Well done.
Awesome you were able to get your hands on one!
@@TrailPOV Pure luck!
Time to do the Druid V2 just released yesterday!!
Thanks for the suggestion
Just curious, what bike do you ride? Also, would you consider analysing different categories of bikes like downhill? Also great video as usual!
Thanks very much. I've got a Scott Genius LT from several years ago. I'm not against looking at other bike styles, but so far the voting has mostly led to enduro bikes because of their need for excellent pedaling AND downhill performance. Enduro bikes are so versatile that I find knowing what the engineers have focused on while compromising on other things is hugely beneficial.
My suggestions for downhill bikes analysis are specialized demo 29(4 bar design, winner of 2019 UCI dh world cup), commencal supreme dh 29(Amaury Pierron won uci dh cup in 2017, 2018 and was 2nd 2019, single high pivot design with idler pulley) and GT fury(combines 4-bar design with idler pulley).
Or a real oddball of starling sturn. Single speed jack drive dh bike.
Awesome work as usual Sir.
Thanks!
Excellent video as always, keep it up with the good work!
Thanks very much!
It is hard to get a high pivot right but Forbidden have done it with the Druid. The only other high pivot I like (a lot) is the highly original Craftworks ENR.
Hi there. Excelent video by the way. I would like to lear more about high pivots. Can you point me to some materials that you have used for force analysis? Trying to wrp my head around the anti-squat, and the way you present it here, I would say that it should be always the same, no matter which gear the bike is in. But the simulations in Linkage X3 proved me wrong. What am I missing? Thanks.
Excellent reviews, glad to see someone breaking down the suspension geometry. Very cool!
Loved this review. If you can, do a breakdown of the Deviate Highlander 150 and the new 2021 Cannondale Jekyll, both high-pivots.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Thanks now i want one..
Haha, there's a reason they can't keep up with demand
Awesome. Your videos have been great as I'm looking to see what my next bike will be.
Great to hear!
Do you think having a rearward axle path is that great? Even though it moves out of the way for impacts it also slams right back into them when returning... seems like an axle path that goes straight up would be ideal? Ik it is also good for adding stability by increasing wheel base tho. Thoughts 🤷♂️
Actually no, as in most cases you will be over and past the obstacle by the time the suspension decompresses. Also, the axle path is still more vertical than rearward. In any case, you'd have to hit a really badly timed sequence of squared-edged hits to get the kind of kickback you're concerned about, and this suspension would still be more aligned with the force vector of those hits (a desirable thing) than rears with more vertical axle paths.
Well said.
Great content. Any thought about doing the Nukeproof mega ?
Thanks for the compliment and suggestion!
Hi, I have a question regarding pedal kickback, that really confuses me: does it even matter when going fast down the hill? Once the rear wheel goes away from the sprocket the casette would simply rotate forward, as the wheel probably rotates even faster, therefore not causing any pedal kickback. Am I right? If that was true, all the discussion about chainless feeling wouldn't make any sense.
So you're not the first person to comment about this and I did some research a couple of weeks ago about this topic in particular. If you are rolling fast downhill I have been convinced enough that the pedal kickback would not be a big deal. However, if you are doing technical climbing at much slower speeds it still does come into play. But I'm open to others comments about this topic.
@@TrailPOV I think this is correct and it is consistent with my experience riding a high chain growth bike for several years now (Intense Recluse). I only notice it while pedalling over chunk.
you are only going to feel pedal kickback when pedaling... If you drop the rear of the bike, the pedals will counter rotate but the force is so small that you would never feel it.
@@hummer694life Yes, that's clear, because the chain is under tension. But idler pulley is the most popular within DH bikes. Check world cup videos, they only pedal on flat, open sections.
On the other hand we saw some riders winning after their chain snapped(gwin in Leogang, i think it was 2015?)
I agree with klstrucker, no way the suspension would move faster than the coasting of the freehub and pull the chain. I mean who pedals while hitting a huge bump anyway?
Check out the Craftworks ENR. It's a high idler pulley design with the pulley position changing through the shock stroke. It's also a dw link type suspension design and has 5cm of rearward wheel path. Chain length required is exactly the length of a Sram 12 speed chain so no need to shorten or lengthen the chain.
Oh goodness that's a complicated setup!
I'm not sure you really need a changing pulley... it's there to make the AS the same throughout the travel. Who needs high AS deep in the travel? More things to go wrong and make noise imo.
You should do the Canyon Strive so we can see what the graphs look like in both settings! It would be cool to see the changes.
This ones actually be on the poll for several weeks now but so far hasn't received a lot of votes
Really nicely explained, but I haven't cleared the thought about the forces from the chain that run through between the idler on the Swingarm and the High Pivot... anyways a review for the V2 Forbidden Suspension Design would be really interesting it seems, even if they are that similar, but thats what makes it as interesting I guess :)
Thanks for the feedback and suggestion. Happy trails!
Fantastic video! Any idea what would happen if you removed the lower most linkage (connecting the swing arm to the shock driving link) in-place of a Horst-style pivot towards the rear axle?
Similar to the Antidote Darkmatter or Devinci’s Wilson bikes I suppose
I'm not sure I completely understand. Any changes to the chainstay would change the leverage ratio with the shock but have no effect on the wheelpath as that's defined by the seatstay as it's a single pivot design.
Fantastic channel we love this!
Thank you so much!
Thank you so much for all the info
Is this system comparable to dh 727 from Lapierre?
Thank you
Unsure, never look at the Lapierre
Great detailed work! Keep it up.
Thanks!
Great video man, probably the best on it's kind.
Thanks very much!
These type of video on your channel are insane, is that a private bike geometry analysis software that you don't share or how can I get it? That's so interesting !
Thanks for the compliment. Just hours of animation and CAD drawings to determine the numbers.
@@TrailPOV Okay, huge work. Thanks for the answer
@@TrailPOV Hey again haha, so you don't use Linkagex3? I heard about this software because that's create to determine anti squat, anti rise etc of bike but the software is kinda old
Excellent video! What are your thoughts on running a coil on this bike?
Thanks. Given the progressive nature of the leverage ratio throughout it's travel you could put in a coil, assuming that it'll fit in the cramped quarters at the bottom.
Can you please do the breakdown video of Kavenz VHP , thnks
Never ever heard of the brand. Thanks for the suggestion
Hi great vid! Could you lead me to some article explaining why the force is transferred from the idler and the chainring and not the cassette and the idler? I can’t understand why that is. Thanks!
Thanks. I'll try to explain it without having to find and article that fully describes it: The pulley is mounted to the swingarm, so the only external force to the swingarm is between the idler and chainring. The forces between the idler and cassette are equal and opposite because they're on the same object and an object can't apply a force to itself and cause itself to move.
Trail POV oh yeah obviously! I had forgotten it’s fixed together and not independant (for Pully and cassette). Thanks mate for your quick answer!
@@parolesdelego No prob
If anyone is curious, S & M size does not require additional chain links. Only L size would. (additional 3links)
Someone else had also mentioned about this....really nice to hear :)
I’d love to demo one of those. Can you explain my bike’s suspension design ? It’s a Lapierre Spicy, another four bar
Unfortunately I cannot look at every bike. Perhaps take a look at my videos on the Scott Ransom and Specialized Enduro to get any idea of some traits of 4-bars.
Your best video by far, might be influenced by the bike though, want one so bad
Haha. Glad you liked it
Does the fact that bikes have a sag point ever undermine the rearward travel of the axle path?
i imagine this design in particular doesnt have too much issue with that
Thanks much for breaking down sus design in a very manageable and understandable way! bring the knowledge to the masses!
Thanks for the compliment. The sag point is just one of the points along a defined wheelpath and doesn't undermine the rearward axle path.
@@TrailPOV but couldnt the sag point of certain bikes (perhaps not the druid) be above the rearmost point, which in turn doesnt allow the wheel to go up and over obstacles as easily as marketing suggests? or does that change when the bike is being ridden vs just being sat on?
@@ek8507 Now I see what you were referring to in your question. Yes some frames with a wheelpath that arcs forward early in the travel will have a more forward wheel trajectory from sag onward that might not be ideal.
If building the frame up, how would it hold up with a coil shock with a progressive spring (love my Bomber Z1 on my hardtail and thinking about pairing it with a Bomer CR for a build)?
Other than a little extra weight, and assuming there's clearance for your particular shock, it should be all good
Hiya, just wondering if you would recommend a cold shock for the suspension design.
I suspect you could. It's got a large leverage ratio range and an extra progressive end stroke
@@TrailPOV thanks!!
Very interesting. Could you also compare it to the Kavenz VHP16? Would be very interesting
Interesting. Never heard of them before. Thanks.
@@TrailPOV They are fairly new to the game, but have a 4-link high pivot design which appeals very interesting to me.
I like your videos soo much and enjoy!
Glad you like them!
Great vid! Now I want one!
Too bad they're hard to get your hands on one
Well from what i heard from R&D @specilized. they say that anti rise above 100% or around it is actually not ideal as you lose traction. They say the sweetspot for going down is somewhere around 50 %
Each bike mfg definately has a different vision. Some prefer squishy bikes that absorb everything, others prefer firmer bikes so they can pop and lean into the bike without it absorbing their input.
very interesting, thank you.
Strangely I haven't found anything about that chain growth or other idle r benefits on their website. But guessed right.
It's all math....no guessing.
@@TrailPOV no I was ist guessing! Then you confirmed it, thank you
@@claritean Oh that makes sense :)
what tool(s) do you use to make these animations?
After Effects
@@TrailPOV thanks!
Do you believe the high anti rise values of high pivot bikes are compromises or intentional? All of the high pivot bikes I am looking at have very high anti rise values (Deviate Highlander especially). Is this something I should be concerned about
I think they're probably a compromise. You should take a look at the Norco Range though....I have it available for free over on Patreon. Much lower anti-rise values due to the virtual high pivot.
@@TrailPOV Thanks for the response! Range is just too much bike for where I ride
Could you comment on the Eminent AFS? I can't find a whole lot on the Lawwill's suspension type which it is related to. Granted not exactly the same design but certainly share some genes.
Never heard of them before. Thanks for the suggestion!
Do a Nukeproof Mega 275c
Knolly 4 bar next! :)
Thanks for the suggestion!
my dude - if you could do the new dreadnought - that would be beyond amazeballs
Never even heard of it. Thanks for the heads up
Great video! You should do one for the Trek Remedy.
Thanks for the compliment and suggestion!
Great video, but I would have thought that relative lack of chain growth would minimize chain growth. Is it true that the idler aggravates chain slap?
Did you mean chain 'slap' the second time not 'growth'? From others comments it seems like while under load the chain slap is not really an issue, but some online reviewers have commented about the chain slap when heading downhill due to the chain being so close to the seatstay...I can't confirm that though.
@@TrailPOV Yes, sorry for my brain fart. I was thinking lack of chain growth would minimize chain slap. And if that was true it would allow lower chain tension and help minimize the friction penalty of the idler gear. Perhaps that is true if the bigger problem is low chain clearance at the seatstay? Thanks for your awesome video series!
@@bcc1955 I ride the druid and I have to say that it's the quietest bike I've ever ridden. I haven't hear the chain a single time yet on this thing.
Could you do the Druid V2? And/or the Deviate Highlander? I think the Deviate has far less friction in the system. I know I'm not a part of the Patreon, my apologies.
Can you explain why the there’s not as much chain growth even though the wheel path goes rearward
Because the idler is right next to the pivot. So relative to the bottom bracket the rear axle is moving rearward, but relative to the high pivot is isn't moving rearward at all, and the idler compared with the bottom bracket is only moving a small amount
Ok I have never even thought about rear suspension before so am a complete noob. I was wondering if any rear suspension is lockable for uphill's? I should say any rear suspension bike worth getting maybe.
Yes but it's the shock that locks out, not the suspension frame. I have a scott genius that has a lockout
@@TrailPOV Thanks!!
Could you compare the Rocky Mountain Slayer 2020 VS 2019? It would make a really good video I think
Thanks for the suggestion
i wonder what whould happen if this bike had a floating brake caliper, whould that make the suspension more active during braking?
It would make the suspension more active under braking, but I guess times have changed and no-one wants to use them anymore
@@TrailPOV i whould, i really dont understand verry well how they work, and there is not much info arrownd but i really like how they look.
Deviate have removed some of the negatives listed here, single chain and I don't notice any chain slap.
Thanks for the feedack
Hey, you should do for the geometron g1 and his diferentes settings!!!!
Never heard of it. Thanks for the suggestion
Do one on the marin mount vision
One issue I’ve heard with high pivot rear ward axel path designs is during hard cornering when suspension is compressed you’re actually lengthening the wheelbase which is going to cause the bike to feel like it is trying to stand itself up. Has anyone who has ridden one had this experience?
I've heard other say that it also becomes super stable in corners due to that same effect
Interresting, so it actually IS a pretty good design, even if its kinda weired looking. Good job.
Thanks very much!
Commencal supreme dh v4 and a norco aurum hsp had a baby! Great breakdown. Thanks!
Haha. Glad you liked it :)
Nice 👌🏽
Thanks!
The man!
What are you think of my Ghost ASX 5100 2014 BIKE!?
Have not looked at GHOST bikes yet. Thanks for the input.
Check out Craftworks ENR. A South Australian brand which looks very similar design.
The ENR looks insanely overly complicated!
So anyone that’s ridden one. The main complaint that worries me was that it was difficult to get off the ground/manual and that it was a bit inefficient. Have you guys been able to notice that?
I have about 200km on mine so far. I wouldn't call it a "poppy" bike but certainly no worse than other bikes I've ridden. Unless poppy and playful is your primary characteristic your looking for in a bike, I wouldn't worry about it with the Druid. And I certainly wouldn't call it inefficient, it climbs very well.
Great real-world feedback. Thx.
I've never ridden one, but I've read some reviews. I think the reason for what you mentioned may be, that once compressing the suspension for manual you increase chainstay lenght.
klstrucker930419 yeah and the rearward axle path perhaps?
@@klstrucker930419 I agree with this thinking also. The rearward axle path and subsequent chainstay length is going to increase the length the bike overall and push you further in front the rear axle thereby making it harder to keep the front end up.
Do you think this is a good climber / playful bike?
Good climber, definitely. Playful, yup
CAN I SHARE YOUR VIDEO ?
Definately!
@@TrailPOV thank you
Frankly? Most benefits of HP bikes come from gaining control over chain interferences with the idler pulley... thruth is: anti-squat, -rise, axle path, linkage ratio all work enormously well in a wide range of designs, actual pivot and virtual pivot placements. There are so many factors that put more value in favor of a good rear suspensions than the design itself, it’s almost obsolete which one you choose within the working parameters. Square edge compliance and remaining wheelbase sounds nice, but both also have a very ugly side to them as well. Speak of instantly changing COG or counter rotating forces on rear wheel. Since the determination of the single pivot sweet spot, a game changing design is yet to come.
Interesting food for thought
shure there is no reason to better what is the status quo, but there is more marketing about those designs than actual benefits. My recommendation is: Always look at actual movement of rear wheel contact patch (the only data you will feel) matching movement of the shock through its travel (only data to determine shock response). You'll find how close those values are on any given design. It sounds weird, but anti-rise and anti-squad tend to be unrecognizable with a proper component spec and setup rather than the theoretical benefits or letdowns of the various designs. @@TrailPOV
next fuji auric LT
Thanks for the suggestion
How would you make a rear suspension for our bikes with long chainstay? th-cam.com/video/OA7V3bq2VNE/w-d-xo.html
Wow quite the bike! Any suspension design could be adapted to a long chain stay. All depends on how you'd like the bike to behave when climbing and descending.
Seems like e a great trail bike for goin downhill but I fear it's gonna be really heavy, why wouldn't they just go for at least 150mm then?
I don't think it'd be any significantly heavier than any other bike. They took out pivots on the chainstay and added an idler which roughly cancels each other out. I'm sure they are in the process of developing a longer travel version.
Ge there. Just a heads up, your explanation for anti-squat with the chain idler on the rear triangle is still wrong. If what you said was true it would be constant for any gear, in reality it's more complex than that. There are two forces at play, chain ring to idler and idler to cassette.
While there are two forces, the one is an equal but opposite reaction force. Because the idler is connected to the swingarm it, the only force between the swingarm and front chainring is the vertical force. The horizontal force going between idler and cassette is an 'internal' force to that body
@@TrailPOV Throw it up in Linkage and change the rear gearing. Your anti squat values will change
@@Jwmbike14 Many people including myself believe Linkage to incorrectly calculate high pivot values for AS. Most Ave come to the conclusion it assumes the idler is connected to the frame, not the swingarm.
@@TrailPOV I've questioned that as well. But, you also can't ignore a differing chainline (through gear change and suspension travel) in relation to the instant center...
Why is the character of this bike always described as planted, when suspension and geo numbers would point to poppy? Loved the numbers on the size M, but ride flat terrain where we have to create our own fun.
Could have a lot to do with the shock tune
Niner RIP 9 RDO
It's already on the poll :)
stop lying on this. every type of suspension have a PEDAL BOB,ALWAYS!!!!! MORE OR LESS, BUT ALWAYS.
Pedal bob perhaps due to you hammering on the pedals and your body weight causing a bob, but if you have consistent smooth the pedal bob due to the chain tension is removed using a well-placed idler
This is half the story. Wait till you change the shock on one and see how well designed the pivot hardware etc is. Regardless of performance, it’s a lovely thing.
I could only imagine the quality engineering craftsmanship on this frame :)