I don't go to hotels or restaurants much these days, but I can't NOT notice all their ice machines and refrigeration/HVAC equipment when I do these days. I'm often surprised by how many things I notice wrong with them too, I'm not even an HVAC tech, I'm an engineer. But I'll hear them short cycling or vibrating to heck or see them plugged up or left open or whatever. If places would pay more attention to those things they could probably save themselves the upcoming emergency call when it completely fails.
They'll never learn, for example my coworker let a store know about several bad crankcase heaters that needed to be done last fall and they approved the work just now, possibly causing themselves a lot of issues. They'll throw cheap repairs at equipment all day long before approving a replacement after spending 3x the price of the replacement.
One of the stories I like to relate is several years ago, I warned a local Outback steakhouse that I could hear that their neon that they had running around the roof line of the building was arcing to the metal roof - you could see it and hear it. The manager took my report, but over the next few months they did nothing to fix it. Then they had an attic fire - caused by the neon sign lighting arcing to the roof - and were closed for months afterwards.
Back in the early 90's every new Carrier condensing unit that we installed came from the factory with an ICM time delay relay and we quickly learned to take that out and throw it in the garbage and put in a Mars time delay relay because the 98% of the ICM's failed within weeks.. I actually got to the point where I refused to install Carrier equipment during that time period for that and a variety of other quality issues..
Maybe you should draw an X over the 3phase schematic so during troubleshooting so as not to confuse. Please don't think I am being judgmental, fact is I admire the fact you didn't edit out that part. Your an excellent technician and it is so important for those learning anything from your videos it is all a process of steps and there is nothing wrong with getting confused, the important part is getting the job done correctly.
That delay timer is a solid-state device. When power is dropped off the contactor, an inrush reverse voltage spike goes back to the timer and possibly damaging the timer's solid-state output. I have seen this on other types of system and use a devise across the output to common that will absorb the spike. It is a type of a varistor. I had a Fireye boiler controller (solid-state) that kept failing. Put one across each solenoid and contactor it controls and as far as I know, still working after 15 years. Engineers of manufactures continue to amaze me. I wish I could be there with an oscilloscope to see that spike's voltage hit. It happens so fast; a meter won't show it. It could be close to 1000 volts. The cheap answer is to have the timer switch a small relay that then controls the contactor. A small relay won't generate the high voltage that the contactor can. Just to make it simple, have you ever got shocked on a 24 volt control circuit? If you haven't, yes, possible. From Google- Varistors are used to protect a circuit from high voltage surges. When a high voltage surge is applied to a circuit, the outcome is usually catastrophic to the circuit. Here is a good explanation of varistors and how they work. th-cam.com/video/KHBgcq2g0Pc/w-d-xo.html I'm with Starchface. I wonder how long those condenser fans and controls will last. I guess that when MANITOWOC's ice grid patent ran out, they had to come up with something.
Watching the fan cycling grinds my gears. At least they should use a solid-state contactor for applications where the load is being switched every few seconds. There are many other approaches to avoid turning the fan on and off every few seconds, but those must be out of the budget nowadays. Delete quality control and find the cheapest way to do a thing imaginable, even though it will cost _more_ later. We are living in crazy times. The retrofit kit consisting of a sticker is comedy gold. Let's pretend it never happened. Maybe they'll give you a sticker to put over the punch-out where the thermostat wire would have gone! The ice-machine service group thing looks handy. Two answers in 14 minutes. Impressive.
Once it's out of warranty time to get a dixell pump down XR control that comes on most Copeland units. They are very configurable and you can attach your fan cycle control and all high pressure switch to it etc etc
They say hurry, there's a fee for saying that word. Break the warranty, put in a low voltage circuit powering the time delay and contactor. Write it up and send it to Manitowoc, tell them to shove it and maintain the warranty.
Have you ever tried using a headmounted gopro for filming? I learn so much from your videos. I am a service electrician and while I am comfortable working on controls HAVCR is the area where I have no formal training. I get to troubleshoot HVACR equipment every now and then and your videos are a great resource for someone like me who prefers a visual aid to learn. I have seen the things you are capable of while using one hand I cant imagine what you could teach using two :)
Chris because you have brought up cost and expense, I wanted to get more intel because not doing periotic maintenance seems silly, so I asked a local restaurant owner. She owns 8 or so restaurants and has been with them since she was a kid. So I figured she had enough knowledge to answer my question. "What is your largest expense?" she said "food by far". So I asked "where does HVACR fall on the expense side?". She said that "it is way down there, maybe at the bottom". So maybe you and the other subscribers can do a little digging to see where HVACR costs fall in the big picture (no pun). It would be just information for edification. It was the lack of maintenance by restaurant owners that intrigued me.
Maybe for like problems of pressure switches getting burned out from switching loads, use them with low voltage/current contactors to switch the loads, that way they will last longer. also for the timer perhaps some simple off the shelf timer modules will do the trick.
@@sw6188 He was talking about pressure switches going bad from switching the compressor loads, so if you put a relay/contactor in the middle to do the heavy work, it will make the pressure switches last longer.
I feel like I made the right call to move away from Manitowoc with my last ice machine. I doubt I’ll ever buy another one. This level of engineering negligence would make the folks at Boeing blush.
on manufacturers doing stupid stuff, Early production Hoshizaki Economy Series 2 door reach in refrigerators/freezers with an NLY12 Compressor were made obsolete before most of them were out of warranty as the manufacturer of the parts for that compressor (Cubigel/Hueyi) went out of business if i remember right. shop i work at has a customer that has one of those that went down within the year he bought it, could never get the parts. Its an R290/600a system so we cant use anything except factory stuff for compressor parts like the PTC/overload/Caps
Off the top of my head and I'm sure I'm missing something but could you install a 24 V transformer and take the 208 volts into that time delay to power the transformer then use a 24 V time delay and a 24 volt contactor or some combination thereof ???
Looks like according to the service bulletin the time delays were a faulty batch from September 2023 to January 2024. Hopefully that means any new ones are safe to use. Would really suck to not have that compressor safety.
Long phase defrost cycle with 'Remove Ice' seen that as well. For us it was the microphone that kept putting it into that state. Tip don't put your machine next to a soda multiplex system. The vibration of the soda pumps and air compressor was enough to disrupt our machine to keep doing that. Solution was to put our machine on top of some vibration dampener. We used 8cm rubber feet and a foam mat on top of the unit to keep vibrations out.
I'm curious... I've done loads of different timer functions on machinery, both on/off delays as well as interruption delays. The timer (a general timer that's DIN mounted) i've swapped out had run for 15-20 years without issue, so why did Manotorc decide to reinvent the wheel and make something of their own that is useless.
If they kick the can down the road enough, then the machine won't be under warranty anymore. Problem fixed, from the manufacturer's point of view anyway.
Out of curiosity, what do you do with old ice machines after you do installs/replacements? Do you keep them for spare parts? Or do you sell them for parts or scrap metal?
The harvest took over 3:30 mins and if the damper does not open it will go into remove ice with the 5.020 firmware And the nxt units its called thaw mode and firmware 9.3 is the newest update
You would have thought that a digital scroll compressor would work in some form, or run some form of an ECM motor on the condenser fan. I don't care for that motor control stopping and starting the motor, stop-starts are what kills the motors really fast.
They probably counted their beans and figured this to be slightly cheaper on manufacturing and don't forget all the service revenue from selling replacement oem motors.
Because it's still under the manufacturer's warranty, which Chris is taking care not to break the terms and conditions of. Everything that is being done is through both the business owner and the manufacturer.
I don't get it. Why can they have a touchscreen with all the fancy stuff but relying on 50+ years old design time delay relays? Why don't they just run one extra wire from the condensing unit to the ice machine telling it when some pressure control trips and program a time delay into the controller? That is like 2 lines of code and would get rid of so many problems Edit: watch first, comment later. Why they eliminated that wire, that's stupid
Why those systems built like it was not meant to be repaired? Do the manufacturers think about servicing their products? Or they are just selling those boxes and calls it a day?
Gotta stick to the og km series The newer hoshi modular are getting too small and major layout issues they are pushing smaller footprint but if space is limited stacked options is all we like to do
I don't go to hotels or restaurants much these days, but I can't NOT notice all their ice machines and refrigeration/HVAC equipment when I do these days. I'm often surprised by how many things I notice wrong with them too, I'm not even an HVAC tech, I'm an engineer. But I'll hear them short cycling or vibrating to heck or see them plugged up or left open or whatever. If places would pay more attention to those things they could probably save themselves the upcoming emergency call when it completely fails.
They'll never learn, for example my coworker let a store know about several bad crankcase heaters that needed to be done last fall and they approved the work just now, possibly causing themselves a lot of issues. They'll throw cheap repairs at equipment all day long before approving a replacement after spending 3x the price of the replacement.
You are like me, like I am with elevators
One of the stories I like to relate is several years ago, I warned a local Outback steakhouse that I could hear that their neon that they had running around the roof line of the building was arcing to the metal roof - you could see it and hear it.
The manager took my report, but over the next few months they did nothing to fix it.
Then they had an attic fire - caused by the neon sign lighting arcing to the roof - and were closed for months afterwards.
@@VideoArchiveGuy That manager should be in jail
@codyfrisch4378 Can't prove it though; you'd need a dated, notarized statement signed by both or it simply becomes two individuals' testimonies.
I love that the retrofit kit is a new schematic label. 🙂
Back in the early 90's every new Carrier condensing unit that we installed came from the factory with an ICM time delay relay and we quickly learned to take that out and throw it in the garbage and put in a Mars time delay relay because the 98% of the ICM's failed within weeks..
I actually got to the point where I refused to install Carrier equipment during that time period for that and a variety of other quality issues..
Maybe you should draw an X over the 3phase schematic so during troubleshooting so as not to confuse. Please don't think I am being judgmental, fact is I admire the fact you didn't edit out that part. Your an excellent technician and it is so important for those learning anything from your videos it is all a process of steps and there is nothing wrong with getting confused, the important part is getting the job done correctly.
That delay timer is a solid-state device. When power is dropped off the contactor, an inrush reverse voltage spike goes back to the timer and possibly damaging the timer's solid-state output. I have seen this on other types of system and use a devise across the output to common that will absorb the spike. It is a type of a varistor. I had a Fireye boiler controller (solid-state) that kept failing. Put one across each solenoid and contactor it controls and as far as I know, still working after 15 years. Engineers of manufactures continue to amaze me. I wish I could be there with an oscilloscope to see that spike's voltage hit. It happens so fast; a meter won't show it. It could be close to 1000 volts. The cheap answer is to have the timer switch a small relay that then controls the contactor. A small relay won't generate the high voltage that the contactor can.
Just to make it simple, have you ever got shocked on a 24 volt control circuit? If you haven't, yes, possible.
From Google- Varistors are used to protect a circuit from high voltage surges. When a high voltage surge is applied to a circuit, the outcome is usually catastrophic to the circuit.
Here is a good explanation of varistors and how they work. th-cam.com/video/KHBgcq2g0Pc/w-d-xo.html
I'm with Starchface. I wonder how long those condenser fans and controls will last. I guess that when MANITOWOC's ice grid patent ran out, they had to come up with something.
Watching the fan cycling grinds my gears. At least they should use a solid-state contactor for applications where the load is being switched every few seconds. There are many other approaches to avoid turning the fan on and off every few seconds, but those must be out of the budget nowadays. Delete quality control and find the cheapest way to do a thing imaginable, even though it will cost _more_ later. We are living in crazy times.
The retrofit kit consisting of a sticker is comedy gold. Let's pretend it never happened. Maybe they'll give you a sticker to put over the punch-out where the thermostat wire would have gone!
The ice-machine service group thing looks handy. Two answers in 14 minutes. Impressive.
Once it's out of warranty time to get a dixell pump down XR control that comes on most Copeland units. They are very configurable and you can attach your fan cycle control and all high pressure switch to it etc etc
I dove into ice machine world this year . With serious crash course installing them for a big convenience store and I really like working on them
@codyfrisch4378 QT
They say hurry, there's a fee for saying that word.
Break the warranty, put in a low voltage circuit powering the time delay and contactor. Write it up and send it to Manitowoc, tell them to shove it and maintain the warranty.
Rightfully so too
Thank you for going into greater detail with this call, appreciate your expertise
I love the sound of a compressor, just something about it and the fans 😍
As long as its properly tuned
Great Video. Thank you for sharing
Awesome video! Very informative. Two for one special.
Thanks!
Thanks so much for the support!!
I support your Chanel thru true tech tool and watch every single video that you posted. Thank you for the big picture way of troubleshooting
I appreciate that!
Great video and explanation....even though i don't see any ice machines anymore....its always cool to learn something new
Glad you enjoyed it!
I received by hoodie very nice and more than worth the cost. Thank you
Thanks for the support
Have you ever tried using a headmounted gopro for filming? I learn so much from your videos. I am a service electrician and while I am comfortable working on controls HAVCR is the area where I have no formal training. I get to troubleshoot HVACR equipment every now and then and your videos are a great resource for someone like me who prefers a visual aid to learn. I have seen the things you are capable of while using one hand I cant imagine what you could teach using two :)
Im glad my videos are helping. Also I tried the go pro approach a few times, I just didnt like the way the footage came out.
Manitowoc Ice did come out with a video a day ago regarding this issue. Very interesting on the way they're handling this issue.
Muchas gracias Chris por tus buenos consejos de trabajo se aprende mucho con tú información.
Saludos desde Coacalco Edo de México.
De nada
what videos do you recommend so that we learn more basics to appreciate your videos and apply it to our cars?
Chris because you have brought up cost and expense, I wanted to get more intel because not doing periotic maintenance seems silly, so I asked a local restaurant owner. She owns 8 or so restaurants and has been with them since she was a kid. So I figured she had enough knowledge to answer my question. "What is your largest expense?" she said "food by far". So I asked "where does HVACR fall on the expense side?". She said that "it is way down there, maybe at the bottom". So maybe you and the other subscribers can do a little digging to see where HVACR costs fall in the big picture (no pun). It would be just information for edification. It was the lack of maintenance by restaurant owners that intrigued me.
Total maintenance and repairs for chains used to be 2-3%. Upgrades, replacements and remodels were normally capitalized and not included in M & R.
Did you ask her if she does periodic maintenance, or does she run on 'fix it when it breaks'?
I just picked up one of the hoodies. They really are nice (and extremely warm).
Thanks bud
Yep Rockville MD cicis pizza had one ice machine it kept up pretty well too
Maybe for like problems of pressure switches getting burned out from switching loads, use them with low voltage/current contactors to switch the loads, that way they will last longer. also for the timer perhaps some simple off the shelf timer modules will do the trick.
for like problems? 🤔
@@sw6188 He was talking about pressure switches going bad from switching the compressor loads, so if you put a relay/contactor in the middle to do the heavy work, it will make the pressure switches last longer.
@@DANGERTIM112 I understand that, I have just never heard the phrase "for like problems".
Great job Chris. I would rather work on Manitowoc ice machine than Scotsman lol!
In this machine most common problem touch pad not working after some. Time also LCD got white screen
I feel like I made the right call to move away from Manitowoc with my last ice machine. I doubt I’ll ever buy another one. This level of engineering negligence would make the folks at Boeing blush.
on manufacturers doing stupid stuff, Early production Hoshizaki Economy Series 2 door reach in refrigerators/freezers with an NLY12 Compressor were made obsolete before most of them were out of warranty as the manufacturer of the parts for that compressor (Cubigel/Hueyi) went out of business if i remember right. shop i work at has a customer that has one of those that went down within the year he bought it, could never get the parts. Its an R290/600a system so we cant use anything except factory stuff for compressor parts like the PTC/overload/Caps
At cicis pizza the Manitowoc ice machine had the condenser unit on top of the ice bin only condenser we had on the roof was the walk in condenser
Would you be able to install an after market on delay timer instead?
Why not use something like a tdu3001a solid state adjustable time delay on make relay?
Well done, very informative
Thanks
Off the top of my head and I'm sure I'm missing something but could you install a 24 V transformer and take the 208 volts into that time delay to power the transformer then use a 24 V time delay and a 24 volt contactor or some combination thereof ???
A nice idea.
Interesting, Ill see if I can dive into that a bit on the next live stream Monday
@@HVACRVIDEOS I never have time to watch live streams but I hope it works out.
Looks like according to the service bulletin the time delays were a faulty batch from September 2023 to January 2024. Hopefully that means any new ones are safe to use. Would really suck to not have that compressor safety.
There is a whole new service bulletin that says to eliminate the timers permanently
Long phase defrost cycle with 'Remove Ice' seen that as well. For us it was the microphone that kept putting it into that state.
Tip don't put your machine next to a soda multiplex system. The vibration of the soda pumps and air compressor was enough to disrupt our machine to keep doing that.
Solution was to put our machine on top of some vibration dampener. We used 8cm rubber feet and a foam mat on top of the unit to keep vibrations out.
8 cm _tall_, _wide_, or _long_? Or all three. That'd be one way to lift it up in the air :)
I'm curious... I've done loads of different timer functions on machinery, both on/off delays as well as interruption delays. The timer (a general timer that's DIN mounted) i've swapped out had run for 15-20 years without issue, so why did Manotorc decide to reinvent the wheel and make something of their own that is useless.
That's a good question, I will try and cover this on my next live stream
You would think the new equipment would be better but that's not the case
I can see why you would think that
If they kick the can down the road enough, then the machine won't be under warranty anymore. Problem fixed, from the manufacturer's point of view anyway.
Out of curiosity, what do you do with old ice machines after you do installs/replacements? Do you keep them for spare parts? Or do you sell them for parts or scrap metal?
We let the guys that work for us scrap them, they take turns taking the scrap from jobs. They get to pocket the cash
Was anything under warranty? Seems like alot of stuff should be.
The harvest took over 3:30 mins and if the damper does not open it will go into remove ice with the 5.020 firmware
And the nxt units its called thaw mode and firmware 9.3 is the newest update
ALION time delay or made from parts from over there?
Big picture diagnosis knowledge
You would have thought that a digital scroll compressor would work in some form, or run some form of an ECM motor on the condenser fan. I don't care for that motor control stopping and starting the motor, stop-starts are what kills the motors really fast.
They probably counted their beans and figured this to be slightly cheaper on manufacturing and don't forget all the service revenue from selling replacement oem motors.
A sticking danfoss valve??? Never heard of it 😂😂😂😂
Ice makers , an exercise in patience.
Is there a aftermarket TD you could use?
I think ill cover that idea a bit on the next live stream on Monday
maybe add a soft start hehe
with all those issues, i would never install them. Some new engineer got hired and are trying to prove themselves and making stupid changes.
Why not add an aftermarket time delay? Better to charge a customer for a time delay, rather than a compressor
Warranty
Because it's still under the manufacturer's warranty, which Chris is taking care not to break the terms and conditions of. Everything that is being done is through both the business owner and the manufacturer.
I don't get it. Why can they have a touchscreen with all the fancy stuff but relying on 50+ years old design time delay relays?
Why don't they just run one extra wire from the condensing unit to the ice machine telling it when some pressure control trips and program a time delay into the controller? That is like 2 lines of code and would get rid of so many problems
Edit: watch first, comment later. Why they eliminated that wire, that's stupid
If you can’t make a time delay that doesn’t die maybe they should take a look at what they are doing. Everybody else can make them fine.
Why those systems built like it was not meant to be repaired? Do the manufacturers think about servicing their products? Or they are just selling those boxes and calls it a day?
Could it be a bad Water pump?
So many starts on the fan motor...... Bad
Damn. I do hate my country, 'cause of ssanctions I cannot get the hoodie. Such a shame...
Are there any HVAC books that you'd recommend?
Dick Wirz book Commercial Refrigeration for Air Conditioning technicians
Thanks!
I always order my pop with no ice.
Thats the best way to get it
Bro manitowack is no go
Hoshi all the way for anyone that needs a lot of ice
I'd sell a manitowoc over a hoshi at this point because of the Hoshi evap issues
If Manitowoc has so many issues why would you install it to begin with?
They all have issues it's a matter of who's issues are worse, I used to swear by hoshizaki but lately Manitowoc has been more reliable for me
Gotta stick to the og km series
The newer hoshi modular are getting too small and major layout issues
they are pushing smaller footprint but if space is limited stacked options is all we like to do
Nice!
The way you operate is called common sense lol😂
👍🏿
yeah
👍👍
nice voice crack at 7 lol
157 thumbs uP
Maybe instead of a peanut pressure control rated only for 6A they could just use a mechanical control rated for 24A.
When it's out of warranty I install regular adjustable johnson pressure controls and they never have another problem
These things appear to be one desaster after another .