Neither of us has a website 😅 I’ll publish there Peabody next week. Coming up in collaboration with SBAM will be Carcano 1867 and Mauser M71. I‘m hoping to have CapnBall do the Werndl.
Ah! A black-powder nerd-out with Rob and Le Chap. The two guys getting me to think about US Civil War black powder arms instead of my beloved Cold War guns. Nice job gentlemen, I hope to see future collaborations.
@@britishmuzzleloaders I've just a bid over an old werndl 1877 rifle. rifling looked good and mechanics seemed to be solid and working. Brass, bullet molds and dies have to be organised yet but I'm hoping to get this old thing shooting by next spring. I live in the same country as the chap does which famously istn't a big one. So maybe he can do another mad minute. let's see
I have done my own mad minute tests with a Rolling Block, a .50-70 Trapdoor, a .45-70 Trapdoor, a Sharps .50-70 carbine and a Martini-Henry. There is no question that the Martini Henry (using Kynoch ammo) was the fastest operating system, followed by the Sharps. The Rolling Block was the slowest. In point of fact I expected you to run out of pouched Martini Henry ammunition before your minute was up. :) Good video. In my 1866 Trapdoor .50-70 video I do indeed hold some rounds between my fingers to demonstrate the technique. I do know that some Buffalo Hunters wrote of doing that, but that is different from soldiers in a unit.
Thank you for your hard work Rob and Chap for getting the train moving, it is invaluable and it turns my thinking to those years of old that decided direction of events to come. In my case War of 1866 - Königgratz Battle. God bless you and yours, gentlemen! +][+
As someone completely inexperienced with such rifles, the operation of a Matini-Henry just seems so natural and fluid for a single shot rifle, where you are already lowering the rifle from your shoulder and the force of the action is up and down. Whereas the bolt action your forces are going primarily backward and forward, which works great with repeaters staying in your shoulder. However, even if there is an advantage it is likely far smaller than the quirks of the rifles, ammunition, equipment, shooter, etc, etc.
Shaun, there is something immensely satisfying in the action of shoving a big fat cartridge into the chamber of a falling or tilting block single-shot.
Speaking as a U.S. Army Veteran (Vietnam Era, I went to Germany), having the pouch on the belly makes a lot of sense. Placing a single pouch on the side unbalances a person, and so it is best to split the single pouch and have two pouches, one on each side of the midpoint. While having a single pouch in the center means that you have to reach under the rifle to get more ammunition, that is less of a bother than trying to reach WAY UNDER the rifle to access the left hand pouch (especially if you are right handed) while trying to reload when the right hand pouch is empty. In fact, I sometimes found that it was easier for me to use my left hand to access the left side pouch than trying to use my right hand to access that pouch on my left side. Just FYI.
Excellent point about ammunition availability. The slow, aimed fire makes sense when you ghink about early industrial shipping methods. Think of the cost of having to transport a case of ammo from the factory to the other side of the world. Then unload it at the port, onto a rail car if you're lucky, then by animal power to its "final" destination, the soldier's pouch.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Theres a scene in Nicholas and Alexandra early in the film in which one of the Russian Imperial Staff* is making the point that every round of ammunition being g used in the Russo-Japanese War has to be shipped from the armories in European Russia all the way to the Far East on the mostly single track Trans Siberian Railroad. The TSR along with the Suez were the mega engineering projects of the 19th Century. The TSR made the US trans continental line look like an industrial branch line. *played by Jack Hawkins in his last role if memory serves.
BM at Desert Brutality...using a Martini-Henry. Then have Ian run the same course with the same rifle. Then the fun would begin...to see BM run the course with Ian's rifle of choice. :-) But seriously, great vid BM.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Odds are Ian's rifle of choice would be some obscure version of a French service rifle of the period. For another non European single shot Karl on In Range really ran the Trapdoor Springfield faster than I thought one could.
I have only done a kinda mad minute is with my Snider. You got 8 and I'm remembering 5 or 6 so. I have an original Peabody Martini so I'll have a go as you say.
Howdy from just south of the boarder! Thank you both for doing such in-depth videos on your channels! I really enjoy the history that you present. Being half Canadian find British military history especially interesting. thank y’all again
Half of the stories you share are [Canadian citizen] approved? Get a bigger caliber and/or other system(s). Only specific types of [Nazi]s get that, [Canadian], north-whens 7.62N going to go?
I love this collaboration I hope you guys can do more. Fabian I'm sure you know but just in case Karl from inrange has done a bunch of trapdoor content I bet he could help you out. Rob love your point on shooting sequences not being perfect, that's why I like that you guys try to use correct accoutrements because they really do matter for the effectiveness of the soldier.
@@thebotrchap Any idea whether he's too busy, or just not interested in participating? If it's the former then maybe some of his Patrons can let him know that we'd be interested in seeing that content. Loves me some trapdoor action.
As you both have mentioned the Trapdoor and the practice of grabbing some rounds and put them in the ground or a barricade, there was an article here in Germany several years ago about the Springfield M1873 and that Troopers of the US Cavalry, which operated for the most time as Mounted Infantry, grab some rounds from their pouches, and drop them in the ground when they was dismounted. This was unofficially or offially prohibited by the Army, because their are reports from Scouts, who have seen Native Americas, screening the ground after actions with the US Cavalry, for löst rounds as this was one of the few oppurtunities to get supply of ammunition.
YES! That's what I was looking for. More collaborations please! Maybe with C&Rsenal, a black powder trap shooting thingy including Karl from InRangeTV. Thank you! Karl can do the trapdoor.
Love the comparisons and discussions. I personally did a "Mad Minute" with my 1888 Springfield a while back loading from the belt. I think I hit 10 shots? Aiming is a treat with the Buffington sight, since the battle sight is somewhere in the zone of 275 yards. I aimed a full foot below the target at 50 yards.
@@britishmuzzleloaders One thing that would be interesting is running these Mad Minutes with shooters running the rifles with the level of training with the rifle that troops would of had. Given the general penny pinching of the US Congress towards the Army in the era I suspect the Trapdoor would run slower and possibly other rifles as well. Not because of the rifle but the training.
An amazing amount of effort goes into these videos, great content! In fact some of these videos allowed me to reload 577-450 with success using the paper patch method.
Very interesting video, I learned that more about the reasoning why things where done a certain way. Very cool, thank you. Have a great week. PS In your The Battle of Inkerman series have you found any information on Canadians in the fight?
There were "Canadians" that partook in the war. The concept as we know it today, can't really be applied though... "William Hall" will come up in the conversation...
A large, heavy and long bullet. These rifles kick! I found on the underside of the lever on my MH it is colour case hardened. Most all MH I’ve seen the finish is gone
Regarding minute 36: yeah i had a box of rounds. I had to start from standing to sitting! and 200m with a garand on my left and some poodle shooter on my right! :)
Great stuff, gents. I do miss the Rolling Block here, but imagine it would fit well within the parameters of the others. There were a few of them built, and fielded. Carry on.
@@britishmuzzleloaders you’re welcome sir. If I do decide to dedicate more time to my channel I want it to be as informative and wholesome as your content. Thank you again from Beautiful northern Arizona.
I recall looking at a MH 577/400 (not 450) in the Victorian State Museum ages ago that had a small box magazine on one side of the receiver that held 5 rounds ... of course you still had to pull them out one by one and insert them.
There were attempts made to increase the rate of fire of the Martini. One was the item you speak of.. trialled but not issued... it was simply a container for ready-use rounds. Was part of the system that would have become the "Enfield-Martini" in .402.
it would be interesting to mark a range with pickets and have a line pulled marker, [perhaps a straw filled hessian bag], over the ground before the shooter, at the rate that one may have advanced over the given terrain, [including any time for returned fire from the advance, bearing in mind that the shooter would need to halt in order to reload and make fire], to see how many rounds can be sent before the theoretical assault comes into bayonette range. this would give a realistic maximum rounds under duress. this could coincide with ordered volley at maximum range, until the picket where the order 'fire at will' would have been given. this would give 1, the evolutions in combat conditions, 2, the order of command and of course, 3, the timing of transition to bayonette and preparation to recieve the enemy. this would necessitate also, the advancing view over said terrain and it's possible speed/rounds returned to the defended position, [which you have done for a number of theretical engagements, in advance]. all period correct for the given rifle, of course. an interesting discussion, I can quite see this sort of conversation between enlisted men familiarising each other by experience over a new issue before any combat, [that number of practice rounds permitted as per doctrine], and it would be interesting to hear this conversation, 'after the combat', having used the new rifle in 'anger'. perhaps this would be an interesting collaboration with inrange's carl, and ian of forgotten weapons as well as yourself and bloke/fabian. I appreciate this may take some doing, I'm sure it is in your collective powers! in anticipation of a bp breachloading brutality event! perhaps with a certain sergeant of our acquaintance and a load of spuds.. huzzah rob! huzzah!
@@thebotrchap I have seen them made from thin wall 12 bore cases and 12 bore plastic cases sized to the chamber by heating the plastic just soft and pushed into the chamber. I will have a look around my records and send you anything useful on Tabby cases.
@@johnfisk811 I’m not a fan of the plastic case method. I do have some cut down brass 12g from a tabby I had years ago which should do if they fit the chamber of his, if not it’s going to take a custom die set. CH4D makes one (based on measurements I sent them years ago) but it’s too expensive for occasional use. We’ll get there but it’ll take time.
On holding rounds in the fingers I think archeology of the Little Big Horn showed many live rounds scattered on the ground. In an actual battle, soldiers already drop plenty of ammunition. Having a fist full at a time seems like it would greatly increase the number of rounds lost.
Absolutely, you’re hurrying to work the action, aim, shoot with sweaty bloody fingers AND you’re supposed to keep them clenched to retain a few cartridges?
@@britishmuzzleloaders One thing I think people don't think about enough is that if soldiers had 100 rounds of rifle ammunition, at 8 rounds a minute they cannot fight a sustained engagement longer than 15 minutes. Present day, just get another 100 rounds, but historically they needed to stretch out the ammo or switch to the bayonet.
Holding in the fingers was a quigleyism, (shown in the movie quigley) shooting a sharps from cover of a upturned boat. In terms of shooting the Martini rifles quick have seen civilians with a pouch set-up in a similar way on a crossbelt where the British army has cap pouches for there muzzle loading Enfield s. Appreciate the great work you blokes put into your respective channels, cheers from Australia.
Can a Martini Henry bullet-the bullet, not the casing-fit down a smooth bore Black Bess flintlock musket? I had a middle of the night idea of taking a bullet out of its case, pouring half the cartridge’s powder down the front of a musket and the other half into the pan and then using the bullet as a ball. Probably a horrendous idea.
Probably but it would have the same influence across the board. In the same vein so would someone firing back or running at you with something stabby. Over the minute perhaps 1 max 2 cartridges due to adrenaline. I would expect accuracy to decrease though.
@@thebotrchap I suppose we are then looking at the character and training of the shooters and I do not know how that could be determined experimentally.
A Snider squibbed in the jungle, Somebody laughed and fled, And the men of the First Shikaris Picked up their Subaltern dead, With a big blue mark in his forehead And the back blown out of his head. Kipling, the Grave of the Hundred Head
Great work! Really smooth with both rifles! If I may, perhaps Carl from InRange could be sucessfully hounded into contributing an episode featuring the Trapdoor?
The hounding has started... In return I would be grateful if you (The Chap) could hound the Bloke for a mad minute in return. With the BMS Cam rifle...
What struck me is the rate of fire in a 'mad minute' with these rifles is about 1 round every 5 to 6 seconds compared to about 4 seconds per round with a SMLE. The magazine helps rate of fire but not by as much as one would assume. These results mean the idea of magazine cut-off, which to modern ears sounds stupid, is actually rather sound. Shoot like a single shot at 1 round at about 6 or 7 seconds (or slower) but have a reserve for more rapid (2 or 3 seconds per round) when needed.
Well the idea that magazine cutoffs were dumb is just plain wrong. Given the context where they were developed: for magazine rifles without clip loading they make a ton of sense. You could argue they stuck around longer than the should have but the oft-mentioned Lee-Enfield kept it as a safety, not to be used in battle. As to the benefit of a magazine and clip, I suspect these videos are a bit misleading in that they are probably firing substantially faster than your average rifleman would. The other big thing is I would expect a noticeably tighter group at a given rate of fire with a magazine rifle simply due to maintaining your position versus dropping the rifle. Finally, if you are loading five round clips, you have one fifth the number of opportunities to fumble a reload or whatever and that is a significant benefit. /The magazine was nice, but I stand by the clip being far more transformative.
Mind you that the 4 secs for the SMLE (15 rounds/minute) were with a target at 270 meters. I´m pretty sure that a 50mtrs target can conduce at a faster rate of fire
@@salvadorsempere1701 The point I was making was the rate of fire without a magazine vs a magazine is a lot closer than one might expect. A trained soldier with a Martini-Henry or similar rifle could keep up a surprisingly high rate of fire.
Most of these rapid fire "contests" are just that... they don't speak to the reality of battle in the era.... the amount of instances that an infantryman would have had a minute or two to shoot at his fastest rate at a target that is presenting itself for the whole two minutes were few and far between... That said, small bursts of rapid fire at short range would certainly have been common place. Add to this, supply issues both tactically and operationally were of extreme importance.... 70 rounds will go very quickly if fire discipline is eroded...
Is that a breach-loader or a machinegun? I imagine lots of Zulus are glad as hell you weren't born 150 years earlier. Nice videos - appreciate all the detail.
I want to see a britishmuzzleloaders skit, where Rob is up on charges for arguing with Lord Raglan that the French are not the enemy in the Crimean War!
@@britishmuzzleloaders Haha, l assume I did!!! But I was laid low with Wu-flu so the many things I watched while isolated over Christmas are a bit of a haze! Clearly I need to review what I think I have already seen from a year ago
@@britishmuzzleloaders I've only shot about three MH 450/577 at a time. The same weight bullet (500gr) in my 458 Win Mag is much more recoil, difference between BP and smokeless powder.
Sorry another question pop up in my head. You where not wearing the period gear in this episode, would that made any difference to the time. I know in the past you have pointed some kit was making shooting a challenge.
Clothes have very little to do with anything... equipment on the other hand does... hence the inclusion of the latter and the exclusion of the former...
Good thoughts. A question though. The ready pouch does seem awkward, even with ou practiced use, id the Brits, or anyone else for the matter, experiment with a battlefield ready use bandolier, which seems to me to be far more practical and fast?
The trouble with bandoliers is that they don't handle getting wet very well, and as a storage solution are quite heavy compared to a pouch. If you watch any cowboy action where they sometimes use cartridge belts, there are quite a few limitations that come into play. I'm sure experiments were done, and I'm sure there were limited uses, but I think that they would have been well understood at the time, and so that would have limited the experiments to a particular cartridge, or particular set of webbing.
Bandoliers were used extensively in the era. What we see is essentially either "a bag" with a bunch of loose cartridges in it or a a strap of leather with a bunch of loops on it.. the breechloading era necessitated individual cartridges and therefore individual loops when bandoliers were concerned.. these need a certain degree of tension on the cartridges to prevent them falling out and therefore are a bit more problematic in removing the cartridge from them.
@@thebotrchap Thanks. Wanted to be sure as I saw .4 .5 11mm 12mm and all sorts of sizes... Found some on amazon, delivery tomorrow. Bamboo paper apparently, we will see how that works! I'm sure I can 100% port the rest of my method over and save hours.
Anybody who sings the song "Rounds fired rapidly don't matter, unless they're well aimed at a particular target" is fine by me. Even if you'd need the talent of Steven Sondheim (R.I.P.) to make the sentiment remotely lyrical.
Ok.. what about the fire tactics of today... I'm not really worried about how they. Did things back then, of how the military and firing doctrines were way back then... The point is, it's the past. Obsolete... Frankly... Terrible idea of how to go about doing things... It is wierd to think about, a military doing that. I mean.. the times were sooooo very different.
Tell me there is a webpage with the list, both what's been done and what's still wanted.
There has not been one with a rolling block, or Springfield Trapdoor. Or the Berdan. I think maybe the Werndl has been done.
Neither of us has a website 😅
I’ll publish there Peabody next week. Coming up in collaboration with SBAM will be Carcano 1867 and Mauser M71. I‘m hoping to have CapnBall do the Werndl.
Othais and Mae to the rescue!
@@thebotrchap there´s a nice series about the war of 1870
@@mikehoare6093 There is indeed 😉
This came up on auto-play while I was listening in the background… heard BotR guitar and then…. was very confused.
The luxuries one has when one is not neck deep in desert and ordnance.... 😀
Ah! A black-powder nerd-out with Rob and Le Chap. The two guys getting me to think about US Civil War black powder arms instead of my beloved Cold War guns. Nice job gentlemen, I hope to see future collaborations.
Cheers! It was a fun discussion, for sure!
Making it a test of "aimed fire" also tests the shooting ergonomics of the rifle. Sights and furniture make difference.
For sure!
If you are armed with a single shot black powder rifle... don't challenge Rob :-)
Haha! If there are more than you 12 of you, I'm done for...
@@britishmuzzleloaders
I've just a bid over an old werndl 1877 rifle. rifling looked good and mechanics seemed to be solid and working. Brass, bullet molds and dies have to be organised yet but I'm hoping to get this old thing shooting by next spring. I live in the same country as the chap does which famously istn't a big one. So maybe he can do another mad minute. let's see
Thanks for this Rob. The Women’s Institute applause clips gave me a chuckle
Whenever a Python reference is usable, I say go for it. 😀
I have done my own mad minute tests with a Rolling Block, a .50-70 Trapdoor, a .45-70 Trapdoor, a Sharps .50-70 carbine and a Martini-Henry. There is no question that the Martini Henry (using Kynoch ammo) was the fastest operating system, followed by the Sharps. The Rolling Block was the slowest. In point of fact I expected you to run out of pouched Martini Henry ammunition before your minute was up. :) Good video. In my 1866 Trapdoor .50-70 video I do indeed hold some rounds between my fingers to demonstrate the technique. I do know that some Buffalo Hunters wrote of doing that, but that is different from soldiers in a unit.
Great! Thanks for sharing!
Thank you for your hard work Rob and Chap for getting the train moving, it is invaluable and it turns my thinking to those years of old that decided direction of events to come. In my case War of 1866 - Königgratz Battle.
God bless you and yours, gentlemen!
+][+
Cheers!
As someone completely inexperienced with such rifles, the operation of a Matini-Henry just seems so natural and fluid for a single shot rifle, where you are already lowering the rifle from your shoulder and the force of the action is up and down.
Whereas the bolt action your forces are going primarily backward and forward, which works great with repeaters staying in your shoulder.
However, even if there is an advantage it is likely far smaller than the quirks of the rifles, ammunition, equipment, shooter, etc, etc.
There is a comparison of the Magazine Rifle and the Martini on the Channel if you are interested.
Shortcut via partial youtube url: /watch?v=dzZNWIICWBs
Shaun, there is something immensely satisfying in the action of shoving a big fat cartridge into the chamber of a falling or tilting block single-shot.
Drinking coffee and listening to you both makes for a perfect Sunday morning. Thanks!
Glad to hear! Cheers.
Speaking as a U.S. Army Veteran (Vietnam Era, I went to Germany), having the pouch on the belly makes a lot of sense. Placing a single pouch on the side unbalances a person, and so it is best to split the single pouch and have two pouches, one on each side of the midpoint. While having a single pouch in the center means that you have to reach under the rifle to get more ammunition, that is less of a bother than trying to reach WAY UNDER the rifle to access the left hand pouch (especially if you are right handed) while trying to reload when the right hand pouch is empty. In fact, I sometimes found that it was easier for me to use my left hand to access the left side pouch than trying to use my right hand to access that pouch on my left side. Just FYI.
Interesting thanks!
Not a lot of "unbalancing" going on.. The P71 is certainly an asymmetric set when it comes to ammo and it's not really an issue.
Excellent point about ammunition availability. The slow, aimed fire makes sense when you ghink about early industrial shipping methods. Think of the cost of having to transport a case of ammo from the factory to the other side of the world. Then unload it at the port, onto a rail car if you're lucky, then by animal power to its "final" destination, the soldier's pouch.
Definitely an important aspect to consider
@@britishmuzzleloaders
Theres a scene in Nicholas and Alexandra early in the film in which one of the Russian Imperial Staff* is making the point that every round of ammunition being g used in the Russo-Japanese War has to be shipped from the armories in European Russia all the way to the Far East on the mostly single track Trans Siberian Railroad. The TSR along with the Suez were the mega engineering projects of the 19th Century. The TSR made the US trans continental line look like an industrial branch line.
*played by Jack Hawkins in his last role if memory serves.
“Well we haven’t done a Springfield Trapdoor yet, we don’t have one”
*InRange Karl intensifies*
The Chap has reached out...
That's a new Britishmuzzleloaders opening. I like that.
Its stolen....
BM at Desert Brutality...using a Martini-Henry. Then have Ian run the same course with the same rifle. Then the fun would begin...to see BM run the course with Ian's rifle of choice. :-) But seriously, great vid BM.
One day!
@@britishmuzzleloaders
Odds are Ian's rifle of choice would be some obscure version of a French service rifle of the period. For another non European single shot Karl on In Range really ran the Trapdoor Springfield faster than I thought one could.
Wow that was fantastic to watch you fire those 12 shots from the Martini-Henry in one minute.
Rhythm is key
I could back in the day get 12 arrows a minute off a 50 pound longbow at fifty yards so very similar to your demo we called it a speedshoot Good video
Back in the day? 1221?
@@benholroyd5221 back when I did medieval re enactment retired from it now
Good stuff!
Great stuff gentlemen. Thank you!
Thanks Neil!
Most ambitious anime crossover as of late. Bravo, I say to your conjoined effort.
Thank you!
Well done Rob, someone has to save the honour of the empire !
Haha!
i loved both the shooting and the conversation that follows
Great to hear!
Fantastic video and great shooting (both of the breeze and of the target). These videos are absolutely a treasure and I look forward to every one.
Very kind. Thank you.
I have only done a kinda mad minute is with my Snider. You got 8 and I'm remembering 5 or 6 so. I have an original Peabody Martini so I'll have a go as you say.
Please do!
This is awesome, wish I was able to do this, these old rifles are amazing, gotta get one soon love both of these designs
Cheers!
The gras 1874 m80 frist french metal cartidge rifle very diferent to the martini-henry but the same beauty !😀 when the video of the french gras ? 😉
"Britishmuzzleloaders", 😀......... The Chap fired it as part of the Challenge already...
Great Shooting and a very informative discussion ! A very enjoyable video ! Well Done !
Thank you!
This channel always brightens my day.
How very kind.
Hi from Syracuse NY USA brother and thank you for sharing your thoughts and history
You are quite welcome!
Howdy from just south of the boarder! Thank you both for doing such in-depth videos on your channels! I really enjoy the history that you present. Being half Canadian find British military history especially interesting. thank y’all again
You are most welcome. Glad to hear!
Half of the stories you share are [Canadian citizen] approved?
Get a bigger caliber and/or other system(s).
Only specific types of [Nazi]s get that, [Canadian], north-whens 7.62N going to go?
I love this collaboration I hope you guys can do more. Fabian I'm sure you know but just in case Karl from inrange has done a bunch of trapdoor content I bet he could help you out. Rob love your point on shooting sequences not being perfect, that's why I like that you guys try to use correct accoutrements because they really do matter for the effectiveness of the soldier.
I have asked Karl many times 😔
@@thebotrchap Damn I'm sorry :(
Its a fun undertaking... especially when the parties involved each bring their own piece to the puzzle, as it were.
@@thebotrchap Any idea whether he's too busy, or just not interested in participating? If it's the former then maybe some of his Patrons can let him know that we'd be interested in seeing that content. Loves me some trapdoor action.
More Snider! A great video, Rob, this approach is really telling and is very valid.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for the feedback!
Hey, two of my favorite gun nerds in one place! Huzzah!
Hey, hey!
I particularly like these conversations, thanks!
Glad to hear! Thank you.
After many days I saw your new video. The discussion of the video was awesome..
Cheers!
Great video and great collaboration, more please 👍
Yes sir!
Thank you for sharing this brother
You are most welcome!
Awesome
Cheers!
Thanks for a great video gentleman thoroughly enjoyed watching it.
Glad to hear!
As you both have mentioned the Trapdoor and the practice of grabbing some rounds and put them in the ground or a barricade, there was an article here in Germany several years ago about the Springfield M1873 and that Troopers of the US Cavalry, which operated for the most time as Mounted Infantry, grab some rounds from their pouches, and drop them in the ground when they was dismounted.
This was unofficially or offially prohibited by the Army, because their are reports from Scouts, who have seen Native Americas, screening the ground after actions with the US Cavalry, for löst rounds as this was one of the few oppurtunities to get supply of ammunition.
Hence the practice isn't as beneficial and straight forward as some might think.
YES! That's what I was looking for. More collaborations please! Maybe with C&Rsenal, a black powder trap shooting thingy including Karl from InRangeTV. Thank you! Karl can do the trapdoor.
I have asked him many many times 😢
Have you tried asking the nice gentleman from capandball
It's all about time and scheduling....
@@thebotrchap
@InRangeTV
Do the thing. The planets have aligned.
Mate, your demo with the Martini Henry was bloody brilliant. Had no idea you could achieve that rate of fire. Accurate too. Thanks, man.
Glad you enjoyed it! Cheers.
Oooooh a hour long mad minute video!!!
Hopefully worth the time to watch!
@@britishmuzzleloaders haven't missed one yet.
@@ShaDOWDoG667 Thanks!
Nice to watch a skilled and drilled rifleman at work.
Cheers!
You, Chap, Ian, and Karl need to do a project similar to Project Lightning. 1870’s and 80’s rifles.
*Lightening. Yup, it took me ages to notice as well.
@@diestormlie I couldn’t remember which way it was and I was about to run of too work, thus I couldn’t look it up.
Maybe one day... those are very busy guys....
Love the comparisons and discussions. I personally did a "Mad Minute" with my 1888 Springfield a while back loading from the belt. I think I hit 10 shots? Aiming is a treat with the Buffington sight, since the battle sight is somewhere in the zone of 275 yards. I aimed a full foot below the target at 50 yards.
Nice!
@@britishmuzzleloaders
One thing that would be interesting is running these Mad Minutes with shooters running the rifles with the level of training with the rifle that troops would of had. Given the general penny pinching of the US Congress towards the Army in the era I suspect the Trapdoor would run slower and possibly other rifles as well. Not because of the rifle but the training.
Interesting video Rob, always enjoy hearing from "the Chap" of BOTR.
Cheers!
Ooh, new form Chassepot cartridges to look forward to as well from le Chap.
Indeed!
Well done lads
Cheers!
An amazing amount of effort goes into these videos, great content! In fact some of these videos allowed me to reload 577-450 with success using the paper patch method.
Glad to hear!
Thanks Rob! Like the Bloke a lot!
And the Chap, I expect... 😀
Very interesting video, I learned that more about the reasoning why things where done a certain way. Very cool, thank you. Have a great week. PS In your The Battle of Inkerman series have you found any information on Canadians in the fight?
There were "Canadians" that partook in the war. The concept as we know it today, can't really be applied though... "William Hall" will come up in the conversation...
You know it's great content when even the tech gets overexcited! Beepbeepboomboom
Cheers!
Gotta try this with my .50-70 rolling block when I get some more ammo made...
Great!
A large, heavy and long bullet. These rifles kick! I found on the underside of the lever on my MH it is colour case hardened. Most all MH I’ve seen the finish is gone
They aren't pop guns that's for sure.
Regarding minute 36: yeah i had a box of rounds. I had to start from standing to sitting! and 200m with a garand on my left and some poodle shooter on my right! :)
Haha! Those other rifles will never catch on....
"Very good, Sir. The scouts report, Zulus to the South-West. Thousands of them."
Haha!
Great stuff, gents. I do miss the Rolling Block here, but imagine it would fit well within the parameters of the others. There were a few of them built, and fielded. Carry on.
Indeed!
Great content as always.
Thank you!
@@britishmuzzleloaders you’re welcome sir. If I do decide to dedicate more time to my channel I want it to be as informative and wholesome as your content. Thank you again from Beautiful northern Arizona.
Awesome stuff!
Thanks!
I recall looking at a MH 577/400 (not 450) in the Victorian State Museum ages ago that had a small box magazine on one side of the receiver that held 5 rounds ... of course you still had to pull them out one by one and insert them.
There were attempts made to increase the rate of fire of the Martini. One was the item you speak of.. trialled but not issued... it was simply a container for ready-use rounds. Was part of the system that would have become the "Enfield-Martini" in .402.
it would be interesting to mark a range with pickets and have a line pulled marker, [perhaps a straw filled hessian bag], over the ground before the shooter, at the rate that one may have advanced over the given terrain, [including any time for returned fire from the advance, bearing in mind that the shooter would need to halt in order to reload and make fire], to see how many rounds can be sent before the theoretical assault comes into bayonette range.
this would give a realistic maximum rounds under duress.
this could coincide with ordered volley at maximum range, until the picket where the order 'fire at will' would have been given.
this would give 1, the evolutions in combat conditions, 2, the order of command and of course, 3, the timing of transition to bayonette and preparation to recieve the enemy.
this would necessitate also, the advancing view over said terrain and it's possible speed/rounds returned to the defended position, [which you have done for a number of theretical engagements, in advance].
all period correct for the given rifle, of course.
an interesting discussion, I can quite see this sort of conversation between enlisted men familiarising each other by experience over a new issue before any combat, [that number of practice rounds permitted as per doctrine], and it would be interesting to hear this conversation, 'after the combat', having used the new rifle in 'anger'.
perhaps this would be an interesting collaboration with inrange's carl, and ian of forgotten weapons as well as yourself and bloke/fabian.
I appreciate this may take some doing, I'm sure it is in your collective powers!
in anticipation of a bp breachloading brutality event! perhaps with a certain sergeant of our acquaintance and a load of spuds..
huzzah rob! huzzah!
There is a video covering rate-of-advance and rate of fire with the Martini on the Channel, if you are interested.
had to be a challenge to find all the empty cases in that tall grass
They are really big, which makes things easier!
Nice haircut. Ooh, Tabatiere to come from the Chap! Something to look forward to.
Friend of the channel Budi has one but ammo is not easy. We’re going to have to start from scratch.
@@thebotrchap I have seen them made from thin wall 12 bore cases and 12 bore plastic cases sized to the chamber by heating the plastic just soft and pushed into the chamber. I will have a look around my records and send you anything useful on Tabby cases.
@@johnfisk811 I’m not a fan of the plastic case method. I do have some cut down brass 12g from a tabby I had years ago which should do if they fit the chamber of his, if not it’s going to take a custom die set. CH4D makes one (based on measurements I sent them years ago) but it’s too expensive for occasional use. We’ll get there but it’ll take time.
Had to mention the Tabatiere... Just one more in a long list, for sure!
Superb video!
Thank you!
Yall have me almost wanting to do the trapdoor video for you
Wait for it!
On holding rounds in the fingers I think archeology of the Little Big Horn showed many live rounds scattered on the ground. In an actual battle, soldiers already drop plenty of ammunition. Having a fist full at a time seems like it would greatly increase the number of rounds lost.
Absolutely, you’re hurrying to work the action, aim, shoot with sweaty bloody fingers AND you’re supposed to keep them clenched to retain a few cartridges?
Very much a "range-ism" distilled by the power of the inter-web.
@@britishmuzzleloaders One thing I think people don't think about enough is that if soldiers had 100 rounds of rifle ammunition, at 8 rounds a minute they cannot fight a sustained engagement longer than 15 minutes.
Present day, just get another 100 rounds, but historically they needed to stretch out the ammo or switch to the bayonet.
@@WhatIfBrigade Sure thing, that!
Holding in the fingers was a quigleyism, (shown in the movie quigley) shooting a sharps from cover of a upturned boat. In terms of shooting the Martini rifles quick have seen civilians with a pouch set-up in a similar way on a crossbelt where the British army has cap pouches for there muzzle loading Enfield s. Appreciate the great work you blokes put into your respective channels, cheers from Australia.
The PiP is very cool.
Cheers!
Can a Martini Henry bullet-the bullet, not the casing-fit down a smooth bore Black Bess flintlock musket?
I had a middle of the night idea of taking a bullet out of its case, pouring half the cartridge’s powder down the front of a musket and the other half into the pan and then using the bullet as a ball.
Probably a horrendous idea.
I'll let you do the math,... 😀.... a .45 bullet in a .75 bore....
I wonder if there might be a change in timing when rapid-fire shooting with others, at the same time, rather than doing it alone.
Probably but it would have the same influence across the board. In the same vein so would someone firing back or running at you with something stabby. Over the minute perhaps 1 max 2 cartridges due to adrenaline. I would expect accuracy to decrease though.
@@thebotrchap I suppose we are then looking at the character and training of the shooters and I do not know how that could be determined experimentally.
There is the distinct possibility of firing becoming wild and inefficient... that's why the role of NCOs and Officers is so important...
A Snider squibbed in the jungle,
Somebody laughed and fled,
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead,
With a big blue mark in his forehead
And the back blown out of his head.
Kipling, the Grave of the Hundred Head
That's the one!
Great work! Really smooth with both rifles! If I may, perhaps Carl from InRange could be sucessfully hounded into contributing an episode featuring the Trapdoor?
Please hound away, all my attempts have been in vain.
As Le Chap has eluded..
The hounding has started... In return I would be grateful if you (The Chap) could hound the Bloke for a mad minute in return. With the BMS Cam rifle...
Looks like Chef Boyardee’s hat.
Sure thing.
What struck me is the rate of fire in a 'mad minute' with these rifles is about 1 round every 5 to 6 seconds compared to about 4 seconds per round with a SMLE. The magazine helps rate of fire but not by as much as one would assume. These results mean the idea of magazine cut-off, which to modern ears sounds stupid, is actually rather sound. Shoot like a single shot at 1 round at about 6 or 7 seconds (or slower) but have a reserve for more rapid (2 or 3 seconds per round) when needed.
Well the idea that magazine cutoffs were dumb is just plain wrong. Given the context where they were developed: for magazine rifles without clip loading they make a ton of sense. You could argue they stuck around longer than the should have but the oft-mentioned Lee-Enfield kept it as a safety, not to be used in battle.
As to the benefit of a magazine and clip, I suspect these videos are a bit misleading in that they are probably firing substantially faster than your average rifleman would. The other big thing is I would expect a noticeably tighter group at a given rate of fire with a magazine rifle simply due to maintaining your position versus dropping the rifle. Finally, if you are loading five round clips, you have one fifth the number of opportunities to fumble a reload or whatever and that is a significant benefit.
/The magazine was nice, but I stand by the clip being far more transformative.
Mind you that the 4 secs for the SMLE (15 rounds/minute) were with a target at 270 meters. I´m pretty sure that a 50mtrs target can conduce at a faster rate of fire
@@salvadorsempere1701 The point I was making was the rate of fire without a magazine vs a magazine is a lot closer than one might expect. A trained soldier with a Martini-Henry or similar rifle could keep up a surprisingly high rate of fire.
Most of these rapid fire "contests" are just that... they don't speak to the reality of battle in the era.... the amount of instances that an infantryman would have had a minute or two to shoot at his fastest rate at a target that is presenting itself for the whole two minutes were few and far between... That said, small bursts of rapid fire at short range would certainly have been common place. Add to this, supply issues both tactically and operationally were of extreme importance.... 70 rounds will go very quickly if fire discipline is eroded...
Is that a breach-loader or a machinegun? I imagine lots of Zulus are glad as hell you weren't born 150 years earlier. Nice videos - appreciate all the detail.
Haha! It was a good run... maybe I could squeeze another round there, but not two...
I want to see a britishmuzzleloaders skit, where Rob is up on charges for arguing with Lord Raglan that the French are not the enemy in the Crimean War!
Did you see last years Christmas video?
@@britishmuzzleloaders Haha, l assume I did!!! But I was laid low with Wu-flu so the many things I watched while isolated over Christmas are a bit of a haze!
Clearly I need to review what I think I have already seen from a year ago
How’s your shoulder after that? In the heat of battle (or fast target work) you won’t notice too much but later in the evening?
Just fine, actually. It's a hefty recoil, but nothing to write home about...
@@britishmuzzleloaders I've only shot about three MH 450/577 at a time. The same weight bullet (500gr) in my 458 Win Mag is much more recoil, difference between BP and smokeless powder.
Henry Stutzen as in the German Version of Winetou film was so often called-! It was the better one!
Haha!
Sorry another question pop up in my head. You where not wearing the period gear in this episode, would that made any difference to the time. I know in the past you have pointed some kit was making shooting a challenge.
Clothes have very little to do with anything... equipment on the other hand does... hence the inclusion of the latter and the exclusion of the former...
Good thoughts. A question though. The ready pouch does seem awkward, even with ou practiced use, id the Brits, or anyone else for the matter, experiment with a battlefield ready use bandolier, which seems to me to be far more practical and fast?
the good thing with a ready pouch. is that it´s the same place all the time.
The trouble with bandoliers is that they don't handle getting wet very well, and as a storage solution are quite heavy compared to a pouch. If you watch any cowboy action where they sometimes use cartridge belts, there are quite a few limitations that come into play. I'm sure experiments were done, and I'm sure there were limited uses, but I think that they would have been well understood at the time, and so that would have limited the experiments to a particular cartridge, or particular set of webbing.
Bandoliers were used extensively in the era. What we see is essentially either "a bag" with a bunch of loose cartridges in it or a a strap of leather with a bunch of loops on it.. the breechloading era necessitated individual cartridges and therefore individual loops when bandoliers were concerned.. these need a certain degree of tension on the cartridges to prevent them falling out and therefore are a bit more problematic in removing the cartridge from them.
...and home in time for tea and medals
Chin Chin :-)
Nice!
How hot was the rifle afterwards? Great to see the MH put through its paces like this!
12 rounds makes it warm, but not hot.
What diameter straws for Chassepot? I have thought of doing this but haven't tried.
Also Rob always looks odd without a hat.
I think that The Chap is going to elaborate in a stand alone video at some point... Cheers!
12mm outer diameter. Putting the info out is going to be tricky since YT doesn’t tolerate reloading anymore 🤔
@@thebotrchap Thanks. Wanted to be sure as I saw .4 .5 11mm 12mm and all sorts of sizes... Found some on amazon, delivery tomorrow. Bamboo paper apparently, we will see how that works!
I'm sure I can 100% port the rest of my method over and save hours.
Call it now! Every down vote are just people jealous of that stache.
Haha!
Dammit Man, I voted the wrong way. I'm envious of those with old smoke sticks but I gave a thumbs up (for the entertainment value)
Continental European.. what does he mean by that... About the Snyder. And martini.
Europe, not including the UK
Only slightly sexier than the SLR.
Haha! To each their own.
Doesn't Karl from inrangetv have a trapdoor?
Yes but so far my efforts to convince him do take part have been unsuccessful
As Fab says.
Anybody who sings the song "Rounds fired rapidly don't matter, unless they're well aimed at a particular target" is fine by me.
Even if you'd need the talent of Steven Sondheim (R.I.P.) to make the sentiment remotely lyrical.
Cheers.
Doesn't Karl @inrangetv run a trap door with some regularity (and more importantly make his own ammo) ?
I believe he does, but The Chap has had little success in convincing him to partake...
👍👍👍
Thank you!
Is this challenge only for friends of the BOTR channel?
Well, anyone can go ahead and shoot it of course,... but I think that Fab's idea was to collect examples of the shooting as a project on BotR....
Do you feel like your weapons wear out?
They do not.
@@britishmuzzleloaders thanks for the information.
:)
Cheers.
Ok.. what about the fire tactics of today... I'm not really worried about how they. Did things back then, of how the military and firing doctrines were way back then... The point is, it's the past. Obsolete... Frankly... Terrible idea of how to go about doing things... It is wierd to think about, a military doing that. I mean.. the times were sooooo very different.
?