One of my favorite weird interactions comes from a badly templated triggered mana ability. Most triggered mana abilities trigger whenever you tap a permanent (or a land, or enchanted land, or whatever). Even Forsaken Monument, which could conceivably want to add extra mana off of your Eldrazi Scions and Spawns sacrifices that utility to only care when you tap a permanent. One card doesn't though, that being Caged Sun, which instead triggers whenever a land adds mana of the chosen color. That means that, if you make a Caged Sun into a land and tap it for the color it has named, it triggers to add an extra mana, which triggers it, adding an extra mana, triggering for an extra mana, and now the game is locked up trying to resolve an infinite loop of mana abilities, not only meaning that the game is a draw due to the inescapable loop, but no player can respond to the loop due to it being entirely mana abilities.
A personal favorite mana ability of mine is Phyrexian Tower. Shenanigans abound when you can sacrifice things as a mana ability, especially when it's on something as resilient as a land.
@@josephwodarczyk977 Oh? I didn't realize I was a bit famous. I've been around, but not commenting as frequently. I just feel I haven't had much to add to the conversation on a lot of the recent discourse.
I feel like there's the potential for a deck that is absolutely broken by centering itself around the weird rules involving mana abilities, but no one has figured it out yet.
I've always wanted to respond to a split second spell by using some sort of Rube Goldberg machine including Omnath, Locus of Mana and a mana ability. I'm thinking putting my floating mana into a Doubling Cube to get rid of it, trigger a clone of Endangered Armodon to die because Omnath shrunk, and have it be enchanted with my own Abduction (or some other reanimation effect), and then have it come in as a clone of Frilled Mystic to counter the split-second spell. Hopefully one of these days I can find a simpler way.
Maybe this spoils the fun, but you can just stick the Abduction directly on a Frilled Mystic and then sacrifice it to e.g. Phyrexian Altar or Ashnod's Altar. (And unmorphing Willbender is the classic way to respond to a split second spell.)
One of my favorite tidbits about mana abilities is that triggered mana abilities inherit the "it can't have a target" restriction from activated mana abilities, but (last I checked, at least) it's fully redundant. There's not a single card with an ability that would be a triggered mana ability except it has a target. I guess it's another "just in case" clause, the CR's got a bunch of those.
The CR have all kinds of just in case clauses for tons of wild things that aren't actually possible under any current circumstances like if an instant or sorcery find themselves on the battlefield outside the stack.
That was surprisingly informative. I've been playing for over 20 years on and off, but never competitively in tournaments. Despite that I have solid rules knowledge and basically am always right in any playgroup I'm playing in, when people disagree about interactions during games and we have to google it. But esoteric stuff like "Deathrite Shaman can't pay for Propaganda, because it's not a mana ability AND you don't get to use activated abilities if they aren't mana abilities during declare attackers step" was new to me. Thanks!
So much this! Like i legit learned stuff here and ive passed the judge test before; tho a while back now... But all this mana ability shenanigans was around even when i knew my shite better Id still be thrown off if playin a game and someone suddenly splitter second responded to a split second card i just played by saccin smth on the board. Even with split sec remindin me about mana abilities, just bcuz my brain autocompletes mana abilities with mana generation and not much else... Forgettin entirely all these shenanigans that abound when ya deal with a fish in MTG
I know ive passed the judge test, tho yrs ago now (i cudnt even remember wtaf loyalty is for a bit there; damn planeswalkers)... And when ya got to panglacial wurm you still broke my brain Like as ive writ this comment ive started to process what wud actually happen there, but i was so confused at first; its essentially a scry opportunity but with shuffle instd of put down, if ya scry a bad card Ofc, this does mean that when searchin your library, if youve a chromatic sphere (or similar mana ability card) on the board; you cannot reposition the order of your library when searchin it... Smth i know happens casually all the time bcuz its easier than savin the spot of a card ya may wanna grab. Like obvs at a tourney ya cant reposition it period cuz these exist, but in casual one shud take note of that part still and/or make sure to use the draw or not before any repositionin, just in case
There's a rule in magic that says your library must stay in order while you're searching it. This rule exists solely for Panglacial Worm, and doesn't apply to Arena.
Unsuspecting opponent: "Yeah I'll uhhhh Krosan Grip your Ashnod's altar." Me, the aristocrats player with a board of tokens and a blood artist: 😏 Opponent: 😮 ... 😢
Legit the panglacial wurm shenanigans here broke my brain for a bit; and ive passed the judge test before xD I used to fill in at a local hobby shop where they nvr had enuf judges I nvr needed to know about all these panglacial wurm shenanigans thankfully, judgin mostly standard at FNMs, but its still exactly the kind of shenanigans that i wud use as a playe just bcuz of it bein a rules headache xD Its actually not that much work to figure out, but its just a lot of rules stiff that tends to just get forgotten/ignored bcuz its so rare that these edge cases pop up I also just love playin cards that annoy my opponents; its why i had sm fun when Unexpected Results was standard. Had a complete jank deck that just relied on castin out high CMC cards with UR by turn 3 when it went off right; and plenty of walls for low CMC to protect me against those hasty boys lookin to get me dead before the deck takes off My most memorable match of that was against a rly toxic player in our community who was both a whale (monetary sense; not fatshamin here) and a tryhard. He always had grt cards, but honestly wasnt a grt player despite all his tryhardin; and was just so easily tilted by smth as simple as a low mana hand on mulliganin So our first game he had that kind of low mana hand and was down a card, and i manage to pull out UR and bring out some big demon card on turn 4; whilst he still only had two lands. That got him pissed goin into the next game, and he did manage to get mana in the second game; but i had plenty of walls and even tho i was pullin just lands with UR, i did manage on turn 6, right after he got out a flyin threat, to pull out that (iirc) 10/10 colossus thing that loses defender and gains +10/10 when ya paid its monstrosity He was so pissed when i pulled that thing with UR that he literally got up from his chair in anger and in doin such tossed his chair back into his girlfriend who was sat next to him watchin the game. And he was absolutely livid by the end of that match when i ofc wiped him out
Skirge Familiar has a mana ability, right? So i could discard a spell with madness and use the mana i get to pay for it? Because normally, if a spell or ability has "discard a card" in it's cost, you cast the madness spell before the ability resolves
Yes. Same thing with Lion's Eye Diamond. Even though you can only activate it at instant speed, it still doesn't use the stack so it will resolve immediately.
Yes, Scourge Faniliar is a mana ability and is subject to all the normal mana ability things. It doesn't matter in this case, since the part of Madness that allows you to cast the discarded card is a triggered ability that triggers when you exile the card as part of discarding it to Madness, so you'll never discard the card as part of paying for itself, more so you'll discard the card, trigger Madness, then use the mana you floated by discarding it.
Do you think they should just change how mana abilities work? Maybe the part of the activated ability that adds mana should resolve immediately, then the rest goes on the stack? Cards like Selvala could be errata'd, maybe? I dunno. Just spitballing ideas here.
Wait what do you mean you don't get priority during declare attackers? You still get priority after attackers are delcared but before blockers though right?
The D.A. step starts with the turn-based action of you declaring attackers. You don't get priority in the middle of this. This is when you need to pay for Propaganda. You do get priority after, still in the D.A. step, but then it's too late. In order to have Deathrite pay for Propaganda, you'd need something like an Omnath that lets you float mana through steps.
You can't just make a video about mana abilities without mentioning the weird-ass card that is Caged Sun lol. I think it's a mana ability that triggers off non-mana abilities.
One of my favorite weird interactions comes from a badly templated triggered mana ability. Most triggered mana abilities trigger whenever you tap a permanent (or a land, or enchanted land, or whatever). Even Forsaken Monument, which could conceivably want to add extra mana off of your Eldrazi Scions and Spawns sacrifices that utility to only care when you tap a permanent. One card doesn't though, that being Caged Sun, which instead triggers whenever a land adds mana of the chosen color. That means that, if you make a Caged Sun into a land and tap it for the color it has named, it triggers to add an extra mana, which triggers it, adding an extra mana, triggering for an extra mana, and now the game is locked up trying to resolve an infinite loop of mana abilities, not only meaning that the game is a draw due to the inescapable loop, but no player can respond to the loop due to it being entirely mana abilities.
*Me, seeing this video title:*
I smell a Panglacial Wurm coming.
"HANS WATCH OUT IT'S THE Panglacial Wurm"
A personal favorite mana ability of mine is Phyrexian Tower. Shenanigans abound when you can sacrifice things as a mana ability, especially when it's on something as resilient as a land.
I haven't seen you in mtg youtube comments forever!! He's back boys!
@@josephwodarczyk977 Oh? I didn't realize I was a bit famous. I've been around, but not commenting as frequently. I just feel I haven't had much to add to the conversation on a lot of the recent discourse.
sac an oring effect on a creature and have some wild interactions with a split second spell on the stack.
Deathrite shaman's ability is not a mana ability because it's a planeswalker.
Suggested tagline for Mana abilities: the splittest second
I feel like there's the potential for a deck that is absolutely broken by centering itself around the weird rules involving mana abilities, but no one has figured it out yet.
I've always wanted to respond to a split second spell by using some sort of Rube Goldberg machine including Omnath, Locus of Mana and a mana ability. I'm thinking putting my floating mana into a Doubling Cube to get rid of it, trigger a clone of Endangered Armodon to die because Omnath shrunk, and have it be enchanted with my own Abduction (or some other reanimation effect), and then have it come in as a clone of Frilled Mystic to counter the split-second spell. Hopefully one of these days I can find a simpler way.
Maybe this spoils the fun, but you can just stick the Abduction directly on a Frilled Mystic and then sacrifice it to e.g. Phyrexian Altar or Ashnod's Altar. (And unmorphing Willbender is the classic way to respond to a split second spell.)
Just answer by flipping over a morph?
@@ursulcx299 yeah but anyone can do that.
@@kitsovereign4127 for me it's not so much about countering the split second as it is manipulating my knowledge of mana abilities and state triggers.
One of my favorite tidbits about mana abilities is that triggered mana abilities inherit the "it can't have a target" restriction from activated mana abilities, but (last I checked, at least) it's fully redundant. There's not a single card with an ability that would be a triggered mana ability except it has a target. I guess it's another "just in case" clause, the CR's got a bunch of those.
The CR have all kinds of just in case clauses for tons of wild things that aren't actually possible under any current circumstances like if an instant or sorcery find themselves on the battlefield outside the stack.
That was surprisingly informative. I've been playing for over 20 years on and off, but never competitively in tournaments. Despite that I have solid rules knowledge and basically am always right in any playgroup I'm playing in, when people disagree about interactions during games and we have to google it.
But esoteric stuff like "Deathrite Shaman can't pay for Propaganda, because it's not a mana ability AND you don't get to use activated abilities if they aren't mana abilities during declare attackers step" was new to me.
Thanks!
i know we flubbed that in EDH games aplenty as a propaganda player myself
the horror music whenever Panglacial 'N' Friends is on screen makes me giggle like an idiot
Oh shit that moon silver key bit is super cool tech
God I love the Split Second shenanigans.
Taught alot of people how Krosan Grip targeting my Food Chain works.
PRAISE THE FISH 🐟 🐠
today I learned doubling cube counts as a girl failure, wild stuff
Damn. That was actualy very helpful.
So much this! Like i legit learned stuff here and ive passed the judge test before; tho a while back now... But all this mana ability shenanigans was around even when i knew my shite better
Id still be thrown off if playin a game and someone suddenly splitter second responded to a split second card i just played by saccin smth on the board. Even with split sec remindin me about mana abilities, just bcuz my brain autocompletes mana abilities with mana generation and not much else...
Forgettin entirely all these shenanigans that abound when ya deal with a fish in MTG
I know ive passed the judge test, tho yrs ago now (i cudnt even remember wtaf loyalty is for a bit there; damn planeswalkers)... And when ya got to panglacial wurm you still broke my brain
Like as ive writ this comment ive started to process what wud actually happen there, but i was so confused at first; its essentially a scry opportunity but with shuffle instd of put down, if ya scry a bad card
Ofc, this does mean that when searchin your library, if youve a chromatic sphere (or similar mana ability card) on the board; you cannot reposition the order of your library when searchin it... Smth i know happens casually all the time bcuz its easier than savin the spot of a card ya may wanna grab. Like obvs at a tourney ya cant reposition it period cuz these exist, but in casual one shud take note of that part still and/or make sure to use the draw or not before any repositionin, just in case
There's a rule in magic that says your library must stay in order while you're searching it. This rule exists solely for Panglacial Worm, and doesn't apply to Arena.
Lion's Eye Diamond is also a mana ability and doesn't tap to activate, which is fun and hasn't caused any confusion
Now you can only play it at any time you could play an instant
Please do more content like this. I need more.
Unsuspecting opponent:
"Yeah I'll uhhhh Krosan Grip your Ashnod's altar."
Me, the aristocrats player with a board of tokens and a blood artist:
😏
Opponent: 😮 ... 😢
1:17 I love Selvala's Parlay!
It's so much fun using it to cast a Panglacial Wurm from your library.
I love funky timings!
Why would you use this to mess up casting Pithing Needle when you can use this to make Panglacial Wurm even more of a rules headache?
Legit the panglacial wurm shenanigans here broke my brain for a bit; and ive passed the judge test before xD I used to fill in at a local hobby shop where they nvr had enuf judges
I nvr needed to know about all these panglacial wurm shenanigans thankfully, judgin mostly standard at FNMs, but its still exactly the kind of shenanigans that i wud use as a playe just bcuz of it bein a rules headache xD
Its actually not that much work to figure out, but its just a lot of rules stiff that tends to just get forgotten/ignored bcuz its so rare that these edge cases pop up
I also just love playin cards that annoy my opponents; its why i had sm fun when Unexpected Results was standard. Had a complete jank deck that just relied on castin out high CMC cards with UR by turn 3 when it went off right; and plenty of walls for low CMC to protect me against those hasty boys lookin to get me dead before the deck takes off
My most memorable match of that was against a rly toxic player in our community who was both a whale (monetary sense; not fatshamin here) and a tryhard. He always had grt cards, but honestly wasnt a grt player despite all his tryhardin; and was just so easily tilted by smth as simple as a low mana hand on mulliganin
So our first game he had that kind of low mana hand and was down a card, and i manage to pull out UR and bring out some big demon card on turn 4; whilst he still only had two lands.
That got him pissed goin into the next game, and he did manage to get mana in the second game; but i had plenty of walls and even tho i was pullin just lands with UR, i did manage on turn 6, right after he got out a flyin threat, to pull out that (iirc) 10/10 colossus thing that loses defender and gains +10/10 when ya paid its monstrosity
He was so pissed when i pulled that thing with UR that he literally got up from his chair in anger and in doin such tossed his chair back into his girlfriend who was sat next to him watchin the game. And he was absolutely livid by the end of that match when i ofc wiped him out
Skirge Familiar has a mana ability, right? So i could discard a spell with madness and use the mana i get to pay for it? Because normally, if a spell or ability has "discard a card" in it's cost, you cast the madness spell before the ability resolves
Yes. Same thing with Lion's Eye Diamond. Even though you can only activate it at instant speed, it still doesn't use the stack so it will resolve immediately.
Yes, Scourge Faniliar is a mana ability and is subject to all the normal mana ability things. It doesn't matter in this case, since the part of Madness that allows you to cast the discarded card is a triggered ability that triggers when you exile the card as part of discarding it to Madness, so you'll never discard the card as part of paying for itself, more so you'll discard the card, trigger Madness, then use the mana you floated by discarding it.
Do you think they should just change how mana abilities work? Maybe the part of the activated ability that adds mana should resolve immediately, then the rest goes on the stack? Cards like Selvala could be errata'd, maybe? I dunno. Just spitballing ideas here.
New fish vid lets go!
Enby flag 💖
Is Birgi a triggered mana ability or not, I'm not sure anymore
"Birgi’s first ability uses the stack and can be responded to. It isn’t a mana ability." - MTGGatherer
What is that theme that you are playing when zooming in on wurm and slevala. sounds ominous
It’s the music from 2001 Space Odyssey
That was sick
Wait what do you mean you don't get priority during declare attackers? You still get priority after attackers are delcared but before blockers though right?
The D.A. step starts with the turn-based action of you declaring attackers. You don't get priority in the middle of this. This is when you need to pay for Propaganda. You do get priority after, still in the D.A. step, but then it's too late. In order to have Deathrite pay for Propaganda, you'd need something like an Omnath that lets you float mana through steps.
@@kitsovereign4127 Oh got it, thanks
I CAN COPY BLACK MARKET'S MAIN PHASE TRIGGER???
some girl WHAT
Deathrite shaman is not a mana ability
You can't just make a video about mana abilities without mentioning the weird-ass card that is Caged Sun lol. I think it's a mana ability that triggers off non-mana abilities.
I hate this