Indian Motorcycle Won’t Release This Valuable Information
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- 💭 Okay, "Hacking".. not really. More like sniffing. Most modern motorcycles have this network called CANBUS. Essentially, it allows each sensor to see what data other sensors are putting out. Makes the wiring less complicated (even though CAN is) by reducing the amount of wires running to each sensor.
I bought a device to read the data off the diagnostic port in an attempt to get the ride command on Indian Chief to work on Indian Scout. While I wouldn't be successful on the first try, this would be a major step in the right direction. I would need to do this same act on Indian Scout which will be done in the future.
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I have a write up here on what I’ve done with more info on the device.
www.brandonbicasso.com/ideas/indianmotorcycle-canbus
Might be able to help you. I'm an automotive engineer well versed in CAN and CAN protocols. I've reversed engineered harleys and Ducati's. Some CAN messages are standard due to ODB2 being a standard. Some messages are encrypted with a seed and key where I have a knack for breaking. Some CAN signals are multiplexed so like that 5 you mentioned in your video will sometimes be engine RPM and then maybe wheel speed depending on a bit. I've written my own software to help isolate and reverse engineer including seed/key. I also have J1939 and ISO14229 protocols working for off road vehicles that use those protocols. If you're interested, hit me up...
Definitely interested in a conversation to simply learn. How can we go about that?
You could also disconnect all the sensors besides the one you are trying to figure out to isolate each individual sensor
"Check out he big brain on Brand!" Nice, dude...
Duuuuuude so when is the indian garage opening?! Doooooo it!
No time soon haha. I'd do it if I had more space. Taking it day by day. Waiting on you to upload more on the Sporty!
Good luck with that, you lost me when you opened the garage door 😲
Excellent reverse engineering Brandon. The IT background / mechanical skills coming together.
Had to learn a whole different field to get this working 😂
Cool! I think I'd be inclined to throw my hands up and get a 1970s bike. But young men like you will be the ones to keep these rolling, two-wheeled computer networks on the road, if anyone can! Keep after it. You'll get it!
I gave up buss diagnostics long ago. Best of luck. You are doing well.
B.B, my brother!! I'm glad to see you're still around and well. Man, keep on doing these great videos, and I'll keep watching them.
That's a good idea but won't always work because many sensors are wired into an ECU and the ECU, in turn, is translating the sensors voltage into a CAN message and unplugging the sensor usually causes the ECU to either send a CAN frame of data as if the sensor was in some max or min position or it may send same frame with a bit to indicate sensor is not detected any more. Still worth trying but should understand that the CAN frame may not just dissapeared as a result.
this is legit dog! i thought you gave up on this quest from your attempt to try this a few years back. glad to see you are still chipping away at it!
I wanted to but didn’t have the resources at the time. This is a big project to try and figure out. 😬
Also, my patreon cause why not. patreon.com/brandonbicasso
Looks like those tech skills come in handy
Hi Brandon, I'm here for it. 😊
That's some dedication right there!!
As you have noticed the actual data can be in a different byte or bit location within the CANbus packet. I would start with one sensor that both bikes have and capture the whole packet from each. Start comparing them in binary format. Find a USB serial to CANbus adapter and send your own packet to the screen and see if the value changes. You can use the PC to send a hex string out a serial port to the CANbus adapter into the bike. Good luck!
Great feedback. I haven't gotten a chance yet to mess with Scout, but will keep that info in my pocket!
Stand back, the Mad Scientist is doing his thing.
Trying to make something shake out there 🤙🏾
This was quite educational.
I hope you pull this off bro!!
That’s pretty intense bro!👍
Normally you have to married the cluster with ecm to open its communications then it will accept the data,so probably oem scan tool. On aftermarket ecm is where we use reversed can bus
For Chief, that’s more to do with the WCM communicating with the ECM after the fob is recognized. Chief will start and run without the screen attached if the fob is present.
I love that you have the patience for that. Good luck. I hope you'll figure it out.
PS: Did you try reaching out to your Indian contacts? Maybe they'd be willing to help out. Off the record, of course 😉.
Lol, they won’t. I have access to some ECM dumps but those won’t help me with this project.
Polaris/Indian OWN the programming they use. The only way to access it is to do it through a dealer OR make a deal with them to purchase all the equipment AND the license to use the computer. Fully legal.
Digital Wrench still requires dealer logins to activate certain equipment. Either a Dealer or its limited in function.
you going to make a fortune if you get that to work.
Shoot, if I get this to work, it’ll cost a fortune to implement it. The device is cheap. Retrofitting ride command and the other pieces, however.. whew.
That is way beyond me. I am no good with computers.
I'm lost. Too bad you don't live close by. When my warranty is up, I'll need help with any ride command issues I may have because I am not computer or electronic savvy. Hopefully someone around here is.
You'll be fine. Ride command is pretty stable tbh. If something happens to the screen, the bike can function without it. I think it'll last a good while.
Well done. Great look into how hackers work outside of Hollywood. Not that this helps you any but there is a company (MC Cruise) that makes an aftermarket cruise control for the early (2014 style) Scouts. They are out of Australia, I think. The instructions for installing their kit may be helpful (or may not). There are YT videos showing the install, too. I'm not sure they have a kit for the newer-old Scouts (2023 style) as I think they changed the ECU for less tinkering and mapping and fun because of the EPA that is anti-fun and all around doo-doo-heads. Good luck and have fun.
I remember their product being a big deal when it released. There’s a possibility cruise control can work off this little device. The critical piece is coding it correctly and adding multiple checks/balances so it doesn’t go crazy. I’d have to test that thoroughly and release it in a “hey, it’s there but do as you please” kind of deal. For now anyway
Genius! You’re on the right track. Looks like we need to mod a SCOUT ECU/ECM?
Shouldn’t have to touch the ECM to get the ride command to display basic rpm/speed. The ECM doesn’t know my device exists. Just another device sending data across the canbus.
@@BrandonBicasso the wheel speed sensor (front or rear or maybe both?) to send multiple data packs?
I’m not sure yet as non abs Scouts only have one speed sensor. Two is used for abs. If we’re just trying to display the number “50” for 50 mph, one should be enough.
Is there any other applications that this could be used for other than utilizing a ride command on a scout? Also, would you have to use this same application to utilize a ride command display on a regular chief 111?
Yeah, of course. It’s a blank micro controller that can be coded to do many things. Also, ride command on regular Chief is plug and play. Just have to buy the other pieces to make the nav work.
Bro your way to advance in this stuff im lost lol .. I have no clue what you are talking about but if my bike ever takes a 💩 I want u to fix it ..
😂😂 I’m confused too.
Deep
Well the new scout can come with that screen....you would think you could get a data falsh for it to work.
New Scout has new wiring and modules like Chief to make everything work. Fuel pump tech is different too. Wish it were that easy.
@@BrandonBicasso ahhhhhhh. That sucks.
Once this all figured out be sure to try to get a backup of the rom on that ride command if possible..?.
if any update is done to ride command by dealer, I'm sure it will break the decoding....
Or ,is that module gonna be on the bike installed to do the translation full time in real time ???
How will u get the translation to stick, flashing?
Maybe so but all we’re doing is looking at what’s coming across the wire and resending it to the screen in a way it understands. Remember, Chief and Scout will function 100% without the screen. It’s simple a display. The ECM doesn’t know the sniffer exist. Just reading and sending data across the wires that the screen would expect. A man in the middle attack is what this is. But in a positive way.
Also, the idea would be having this device plugged into the diagnostic port and it lives there. Or, you can tap into any place on the canbus. I picked the diagnostic port for convenience. I originally tapped at the display harness and got the same result. So, after finding the IDs for both bikes, I need to write a script to send those messages in Chief form but with Scout data. Example: Scout’s speed bits but converted to a message as Chief’s speed bits that the screen understands. It would constantly send this data while the screen is active. May have some latency in milliseconds but I’ll figure that out later. Just gotta find the rest of the information between both bikes.
@@BrandonBicasso ok perfect! Great job of RE!
Hi, I wanted to ask you a question, I have a 2022 Scl, and the speedometer started giving me problems, giving me the wrong speeds and consequently preventing me from using the cruise control, do you have any solutions I can adopt at home?
Sounds like a wheel speed sensor issue. If it’s malfunctioning, speed doesn’t show correctly and it prevents cruise control from working. Cruise control can’t work at all without the speed sensor. I would check the sensor, the bearings, and any diagnostic messages the bike might say.
From a software angle Cruise control is a quite complicated for safety reasons - I am a programmer and have tingled quite a lot with those bits including radar😂
Sounds like maybe you had some moments trying it out haha.
@@BrandonBicasso Multiple boards checking on each other to ensure that the algorithm gets quality inputs for the decisions 😂
Did you get it to work though!? It's not crazy if it works.
@@BrandonBicasso I ran into some issues with getting a radar like the one ducati and bmw are using from Bosch - they would not sell it to me.. Next winter I am back on the project - will try and find a radar. The target it adaptive cruise control😂
Bro have you figured out how to decode the hexa decimal? I know there are open source decoders that can do it
So so. For instance, when I found the gear position sensor. It said “31” and “4E”. 31 decodes to “1” and 4E decodes to “N”. That’s important because I can take the relevant ID on Scout, and display that on screen.
@@BrandonBicasso oh dude that’s great progress so far!
I know it's an expensive tool, but Would something like the GS-911 work on this?
Possibly. Indian doesn’t use the OBD standard so that may be a problem. Digital Wrench is their proprietary piece that does their diagnostic work.
I'm guessing CC means Closed Circuit
Not necessarily. I'm not sure what gives engineers the idea to pick these specific hex ids, but they mostly translate to digits. "4E" with the gear sensor translates to "N" for neutral, though.
@@BrandonBicasso Yeah, it seems like it's random unless it's not, which is pretty random. Good luck, man!
🤯🤯🤯🤕🤕
It's a good thing I quit helping you. I'd be putting a carburetor and an analog speedometer on it. Like Joe Walsh, I'm an analog man. That stuff you're messing with makes absolutely no sense to me.
Lol! I do wonder what type of work a carburetor swap would involve. You'd have to delete or retard the ECM somehow to not send those signals including the fuel pump connections.
@@BrandonBicassoI'm REALLY old school. The ECM and high pressure fuel pump would occupy a corner of my garage until I found papers for them to hold down. I appreciate the economy and reliability tech has given us, but I grew up in the 50s and 60s. If I can't fix it with a screw driver and a wrench, I can't fix it.
this is why i cant buy an indian. there are no stores anywhere even remotely close, where do you get it worked on? i can watch hundreds of hours of step by step guides for anything on almost any harley and there is basically just Brandon Bicasso and whatever he can figure out alone in his garage for Indian tech help. seems like a poor purchase tbh.
Lol! There's plenty of dealerships and some indie shops around. My dealers are hours away but they wouldn't know anything about what I'm doing. Let alone help.
Wow, thats way past my tiny bit of computer program knowledge. Great job doing what you doing. You got me clueless though. 😢😢
I had to grassroot everything from the automotive industry where this has more documentation. No worries, we’re learning together.
🫢 You got magic that can see a gremlin? What type of sorcery is this?! 🤣👏👏👏✌️