***All comments must include "Just play Pathfinder." Thank you. 💥 BWB 5e PDFs: www.patreon.com/bobworldbuilder ✅ LIKE & SHARE: th-cam.com/users/BobWorldBuildervideos
@@arbhall7572 nah, Pathfinder is good, but it has problems with inconsistency across classes due to the many choices of modularity. It is difficult to approach for new players, but conversely is not too bad for players familiar with TTRPGs. Regardless though, compared to D&D 5e, it is a LOT of reading to get started.
For me personally, I realize I was being stubborn and prideful in refusing to try out other systems. I was proud of my homebrew and even considered making my own system from scratch before I considered trying other games. I realize now that I just wanted the ideas to be mine. Once I got over myself and started reading and playing other systems, I saw that everyone had already done my ideas and that I was growing so much more as a GM, a player, and even a fledgling game designer just by exposing myself to all these ideas. Btw, I don't like pathfinder, but I'm glad I tried it. It is important to know what you don't like and why, maybe more important than knowing what you like and why.
I don't understand the "Don't like D&D? Go play Pathfinder!" approach. Somehow Paizo, (whose staff felt the need to form a Union...) have been turned into RPG Jesus following WotC shitting the bed over the OGL.And now some people have somehow got it into their heads that playing Pathfinder is supporting "Smaller Independent" games. It would be funny if it wasn;t so sad. Try something genuinely different and not a D&D clone/spinoff/OSR. Seriously... try a d100 system. Some of them have free PDFs of their basic rules systems that you can just download for nothing, and use to get a taste of the game before shelling out on a whol;e new set of books. (Or, in most cases... just a couple of books) "TTRPG" TH-camrs are never going to truly diversify away from D&D until WotC shoots a puppy in the head on National Television, because D&D is where the clicks are at. Some have been hovering around Pathfinder waiting to see which way the wind blows, but the further we get from the OGL fiasco, the more they are all drifting home...
I'm still waiting for a streamlined medium crunch point buy system. Such a simple and obvious thing that the RPG industry keeps dancing around. I don't want to HB it, but I've been waiting a long time.
@@andrewtomlinson5237 Yeah I hate the whole "Pathfinder have it" approach, there are other systems than just DnD and pathfinder and despite DnD lacking some machanics so what? I don't need rules for every single aspect of life, I GMed system that have rules how to kill and how to die and that are basically all the rules there, no crafting, no swimming, no making nukes nothing. And it was so much fun and after first session I basically knew all the rules. Each system focuses on something else, DnD have quite complex combat with feats, spells etc. Alien is great horror game where Alien is actual threat and you're trying to do your thing in secret from others. Could you make Alien in DnD? Maybe but could you recreate the same feeling? I was actually afraid few times playing Alien and stress was real
@@BobWorldBuilderI think people make better ideas when they're in dialogue with the ideas of others, it's humbling, because the less you know the easier it is to -feel- original, but if you find a -true- and informed new idea to bring to the table, thats even more rewarding
I have a peculiar take on this one: if 5e was the first TTRPG that got you to take TTRPGs seriously as a hobby, then one is absolutely inclined to homebrew it until it cannot be so. But the first TTRPG that got me to take the hobby seriously as... well, a hobby... is Monsterhearts 2e (PbtA). So when my group started playing 5e with the same passion as our Monsterhearts games, we sort of homebrewed both to feel like the other. We wanted the drama of the PbtA game, and the action of 5e. Then I got to play Call of Cthulhu and Quest which brought in aspects that we enjoyed from Monsterhearts and 5e. All this to say play other games, but don't be afraid to homebrew them anyway.
My first TTRPG was actually Doctor Who, followed closely by Mistborn. Only after those did I finally start playing D&D (4e). I think having those rules-light systems as my foundation has really affected how I view tabletop gaming as a whole.
I am a big, big fan of dice pool systems; especially ones where you get some freedom in how to build your pool in a given situation with some resource management. It makes each and every decision such an active one. As for nat 1s in LotR - everything Pippin ever does. Just every time he's in a scene it's a nat 1 (which is why he's the best)
If you like building your Dice pool I'd really suggesst THe Wildsea its hella freeing on how you can build your pool and how to roleplay it all out because you are kinda supposed to think of an "argument" (harsh word for it but it works) when making your pool and roleplay that out
It ENTIRELY depends on what you're trying to do. If I want to just run a new setting without major changes to how a normal D&D world would work, I run it in 5e or Pathfinder for ease. but I would never use 5e to run a modern or sci-fi game, or one where I want gritty risks and dark tones. And some settings are entirely married to their system and just "translating" would be watering the experience down (Shadowrun comes to mind). But my biggest suggestion is to actually TRY new systems, don't just assume that because you *can* do it in 5e that you should. I have a pretty negative opinion of 5e purely from the online sentiment to try to just make a 5e hack for anything. There are better RPGs than D&D 5e out there
Yeah, systems purposefully made to reflect the setting are generally better if you want to play in that setting. Warhammer comes to mind here, with its high danger of combat and magical mishaps being a core part of the mechanics. Another example is World of Darkness, where the central tension is a tug-of-war between the bestial and human side of every character, which is reflected in some version of the Humanity track that most other mechanics reference. As for trying new games, IMHO, the best option is to go to conventions. There are always people playing a wide variety of RPGs, including some experimental and homebrew systems. You usually also get pre-generated characters for the more complicated games, so you can get right into the action.
I run and play OSR games. Last time I rolled character with just 1 HP, dying is very common. In DnD it's much harder to die for better or worse, that's the first difference between DnD and other games I played and honestly I don't mind dying at this point. Of course I try not to but shit happens you just sometimes have max 1 hp and boss decides to to roll d8 damage on you
@@realdragon player death isn't the system its the DM. Players can die quite easily in D&D. I have never minded dying, but the best experiences are from near death moments in my opinion, which is what I strive for when i run.
@@silasrobertshaw8122 Yeah I know DnD can be deadly. I don't experience near death same as death, when someone (or me) dies it's more "o shit I need to be more careful"
As you’ve pointed out, learning another game system is usually way less difficult than it was to learn 5e or PF. Your Cairn and Skate Wizards videos are perfect examples of that.
I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, changing systems to fit a bit better up is part of GMing and playing. On the other hand, I see people reinventing PF2 within 5e often, which is not really all that time effective. Between these, The One Ring
@@realdragon the actual rules of patfinder about playing are basically the same lenght as dnds, there are more pages for feats, items etc but generally there are also more pages in dnd which you ignore/homebrew (jumping for example)
@@realdragon nice, id reccomend to try out shadowrun (5e) but its probably the hardest ttrpg that i know how to play and also the mechanics arent all that good
I homebrew a lot for 5e, it is a fun creative challenge for me to make modifications that i like that still feel like they fit within the larger system. I enjoy the effort that is required there, if I didn't i would play a different system (probably an older D&D edition)
Baron, I just picked up the One Ring starter set + core book and am reading through it. You should do a video on it! Would love to get your input on how to run it.
The mentioned familiarity barrier of 5e is forming a kind of intellectual blockade on the collective mind of our hobby... imagine the grim effect if such a blockade were in place on novels, art or even scientific thinking.
It is kinda a thing in science, "I learned this so it's that way" is way of thinking of some scientist at least in my field. But I don't think they think that way about too important things, for example in astrophysics cm/g/s is still used instead SI m/kg/s (not too important) but with constant influx of new scientists things like that is slowly changing (except units in astrophysics, the war on which units to use is still a thing)
@@yuvalgabay1023 Ehhh not really. Tolkien is still an important figure in fantasy, but nobody is going to give a shit about your LotR ripoff series these days. The tone and style of epic fantasy has changed. Now everyone is trying (and largely failing) to rip off George RR Martin.
I think the "play p2e" mindset is pretty fair when people try to reinvent the wheel and make a far crunchier version of 5e. You don't have to play it forever, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice not to try it. You can pick up on some really cool things to snag for your game if you don't like it, at the very least.
What I like about pf2e as a player is that it makes me feel empowered to get creative with my character builds, and I don't need to ask permission from the GM unless the rules specifically say I need to (in the form of it saying "uncommon" or "rare"). Unlike D&D 5e, I don't have to wonder if I am doing cool stuff in a campaign because I'm friends with the DM or if I really am clever with my build because there's a rule for everything. Rather than beg the DM, I can just look up the rules and do it.
@@ex0stasis72"creative" "pf2". I didn't really feel that. There's so much minor buffs in pf2 I don't even know why they'd matter. They don't even stack like 4e. AND YES YOU DO NEED THE GM'S PERMISSION FOR PF2. An actual freeform game is more like Savage Worlds where it's classless, the powers/spells, feats/edges are available to all who can attain them and you get to flavor them as you wish. "My summon ally is my shadow, a small flying robot, my companion pixie, an illusionary doppelganger.".
@@elgatochurro I'm not entirely sure if I can articulate the idea of personal taste, but I enjoy more creative freedom in perks and feats for my character so I have more interesting build options without absurd multi-classing.
@@elgatochurro what I meant is that my creativity is rewarded with mechanical benefits in PF2e rather than just for the sake of flavor and roleplay like in D&D 5e. In PF2e, the odds of me doing the same actions in the same way over and over again are so low. In 5e, every time I come up with some alternative to the usual, it's narratively interesting, but mechanically worse. Is that the DM's fault? Maybe, but in PF2e, it's so balanced that it doesn't leave room for the GM to mess up on things like that because there are rules for everything. And I can look them up and explain to the GM why I can do them.
isildur on his final wisdom save in mount Doom. But seriously, he had been caryying the most evil object in all of Arda for months and failed to it in the place it was at the height of its power, so i think we can just blame the DM and not his roles.
I like learning new systems (I learned how to run like 4 over the last couple months) but GURPS is quickly becoming my favorite because I can literally run anything I want in it, it also has most of the mechanics I was trying to homebrew into D&D, I kinda miss the D&D spells but I can remake them in GURPS.
@@ardentdrops I've been having a ton of fun with Thaumatology I always loved making magic systems for my own personal projects and it feels like that but I can actually put my system into an RPG after I finish it!
It's often said because there are folks that refuse to even consider other systems, even when other systems have exactly what they're looking for. It's a shame, I think we should all play multiple systems, as they each have their benefits. In fact, my group sets aside one week per year where we play new systems for five straight days, and we always have a blast.
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I've commented on your videos pointing out similar mechanics in other games it's because I find it useful to look at how other designers have tackled similar designs. It's intended as further inspiration not a suggestion that you should run off and play X instead.
Yeah that's usually how I take it unless someone outright says "play this instead" because most of the time folks here are so nice I don't graft onto them the intent of trying to proselytize for their game.
Totally! I appreciate those comments almost every time. Sometimes it's just funny, like on the recent "hero coins" video, where at least a few dozen people left the same comment about Savage Worlds. I'm sure they're right, but read the other comments first! haha
As you said, One Ring is built from the ground up to specifically capture the feel of Middle-Earth/LotR. I don't know about the 5E version, but TOR uses Hope as a metacurrency, there's incentives to form strong bonds within your Fellowship, there's the whole Shadow/Eye Awareness system... it all just feels right. Plus the combat system of choosing stances and special weapon strikes is just *chef's kiss* I'm a big advocate for reading/trying new games, ESPECIALLY if you're trying to write/design homebrew or even your own game. The more you expose yourself to, the deeper your knowledge pool to draw from. I think you said it in a previous video but imo it's the equivalent of eating the same thing for every meal. Like yeah pizza is great but I really don't think your head would explode if you tried curry.
Yeah I probably should have spent a little more time to mention those mechanics. Haven't played it yet, but when reading, those elements really made me feel like this game gets LotR right
@@BobWorldBuilder I think you'll have a blast with it. My one quibble with TOR is that it assumes a long campaign by default so imo it's not wonderful for one offs and short adventures, but nobody said I couldn't hack it 😉
Matt Colville said something years ago that propelled me and my groups out of the bland and risk averse WotC-Hasbro 5E: “the mechanics should support the fantasy.” The One Ring, Star Trek Adventures, Forbidden Lands, Call of Cthulhu…they all implement systems features that drive the intended fiction of the setting.
Honestly i think this is a conversation to have with the entire group. ( really the most important part of any game, is that everyone in the table is willing and enthusiastic about playing it.. so play the game that makes everyone in the table to be interested ) Disclaimer: from now on i'm going to talk about ME and MY experience. But.. FOR ME specifically after playing like.. almost all my life playing for more than 30 years. and D&D being my first game but not the only one... and even creating half a docen of distinct games from diceless RPG to full d20 systems... The most important things for me is "alignment" (don't think D&D for alignment but on everyone being aligned with the expectations). Systems could support or impede some fantasies. and i any TTRPG is about having a "shared" fantasy of some sort, the most important thing for it to flurish is that everyone at the table have a compatible fantasy and the rules support that kind of fantasy. That's why i think that session 0 should happen BEFORE picking the game system. having everyone sharing expectations and exitement about what is about to happen is more important than any particular system. after everyone agrees on a Style, tone, and the kind of things that cares about, then you pick the system that would more efficiently support that kind of fantasy, and you homebrew whatever you need to ensure that happen
People can suggest whatever they prefer to do, but not everyone has all the information to make a decision for you. So my suggestion is try other RPG systems, or at least read some of the mechanics, and if you don't like the system, don't play it, but you might also get some ideas on how to adjust 5e as well. Both methods are equally viable, they're just not both the right solution for every person.
I love the combat in The One Ring and rolling a Gandalf rune on the d12 gives me the same buzz as rolling a nat20, and it will potentially happen more often!
The sheer breadth and depth of variety in the TTRPG hobby leave me breathless and wide eyed as a kid in a candy store. My time on this earth is so very limited, I'll never play all the games I want to experience. I would feel it was wasteful, to take one I have already played, and enjoyed, and thhen try warp it to fit something that already has it's own rules and themes in an existing, but different game? Better to move on and try something new, learn new rules and how they effect the game. Plus the greater variety of rules I have experienced the better options at my fingertips if I ever do feel the need to make homebrew changes to the game I'm playing. I am lucky my friends feel the same way for the most part and I never struggle to get them to try something new. However, I get the joy of knowing the game inside and out and that feeling of mastery and being able to try out all the different options, so I don't judge those that stick to the one game, I just don't have that dedication or focus and need to move on after the campaign is over.
my theory is that 1) D&D is probably their first game, 2) D&D is actually quite complex and crunchy and took a while to learn, 3) the reasonable assumption is that other games are equally complex and crunchy and will also take some time to learn
@@Triceratopping One attitude I have also noticed is the false assumption that D&D is the best system out there so why even bother looking into inferior systems. When in reality, all systems have their strengths and weaknesses. For example you can't homebrew D&D to outclass blades in the dark if you want to have a campaign where you play as a thief or assassins guild.
With everything WotC did now people are moving to Pathfinder and now are glorifying it and saying how "it's better than DnD anyway". If it's that much better then why they didn't play it sooner? Imo each system have its' strengths and weakness
Since I enjoy homebrewing and there's a bunch of material for 5E, I use 5HB. I do really like bounded accuracy. I tend to peruse other systems for ideas I can use for my 5HB games.
Bob, this is a brilliant video. The comparison of the 2 properties and contrast of the mechanics, is perhaps the most valuable argument for how people can differentiate and make informed choices. Well done!
While I have never had a problem with homebrew-tweaking my games, especially because over the years I've played/run a few games with wonky system rules that needed a bit of work (Fading Suns 1st & 2nd Ed., I'm looking at you!), I'm also very much in favor of playing games with systems that support unique styles of play. DCC's system supports swingy, wild, chaotic, over the top, tomfoolery. Call of Cthulhu's system supports investigative Horror. Tales from the Loop's system supports wistful, slightly nostalgic, almost cozy...but also very sad, kid-adventures. COULD you contort the 5e rules so far out of whack that you could run an investigative Horror game? Maybe. At low levels, maybe? But it would be like trying to use a screwdriver to drive a nail into a wall. You CAN do it, but the hammer is right there, and while it looks really different, it isn't actually that hard to learn how to use (not a perfect analogy, as one of my favorite games of all time, Ars Magica, has an amazing system that does a great job of capturing its unique take on Medieval Fantasy, but is actually something of a challenge to learn...But it's SO worth it!...And I'm normally a "rules lite" guy.). I think where D&D has always lost me, in its early versions that were more deadly and grim and its new version that's more superhero-y, is in its wargame roots. Take away all the plug ins, extensions, options, and 50 years of built-up, at-table tradition, and it is still, at its core, a game about killing monsters. Can you do other things? Sure. But that's the gameplay the rules are built around. Again, using Call of Cthulhu as a counter, that's not a game about killing monsters. Can you? Sure. But if you spend all your time searching for, tracking down, and engaging in combat with monsters, you're character will die very quickly. And that doesn't change if you've been playing for 2 hours or 2 years. Your character will always be fragile and fighting will always be something best avoided if you want to survive.
Oh, man, I feel you on the _Fading Suns_ issue. I've owned every edition and still have yet to run a single session because I've never quite grokked the rules. But what a flavorful setting!
@@DevinParker, I absolutely love the setting. One of my favorite. I ran it for 2 years back around the time 2nd Ed came out, but the system was a struggle. It wasn't terrible. It just didn't quite mesh. I'd like to run it again, but if I did, I'd likely use Basic Role Playing, which I think would be a perfect system for it.
I had this idea of thinking of RPG systems like languages. You can easily spend your entire life having to use only one language, be it English or another native language, and it being perfectly comfortable for you. There's even a degree of creativity and flexibility involved: when you lack words for concepts, you can make them up or take them from other languages. And that's fine. However, if you want to push yourself, you can learn a new language. It's a bit of effort and sometimes requires a whole lot of changing how you think, but it ultimately can open you up to a whole lot of new experiences that you wouldn't have had just sticking to your original language. And if you ever want to make up your own language, well, now you have more to draw from. As a bit of a side-thought-experiment, if I were to actually make comparisons between some systems to real-life languages, I would say the various editions of D&D is the cluster of Romance languages (Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, etc.). 5E would be Spanish, Pathfinder would be French, and the original D&D would be Latin. Something like GURPS would be German, with how complicated but versatile it is.
My biggest issue with 5E is that the combat is clunky and slow. I realize that to some extent this has to do with players at the table, but every time I DM it seems like the game slows to a crawl as soon as initiative is rolled. And DnD doesn’t have a ton of rules that aren’t combat based, which is why I think that it’s the rules light/ rules heavy disparity causes us to get bogged down. Currently playing a bit of Worlds Without Number and loving it! Feels like 5E with slightly different flavor when not in combat, and in combat there’s way way less abilities and such to worry about. And the Warrior class is so good at fighting that unlike DnD you don’t need to be a spell caster to feel powerful. I got DCC as well but I think that without a hardcore group (usually only can scrounge together 2-3 in person) we will get frustrated long before it gets fun.
Yep, D&D is a combat simulator, so fights definitely slow things down unless you make a bunch of changes and/or have experienced players who value keeping things quick
Gandalf said "Fly you fools!" The Fellowship turned and attacked the 5e Balrog, whose powers and hit points were lowered so that the Fellowship could win any combat ever attempted because 5e players never lose, although the combat actually took days to resolve because all of the hit points the Balrog had and the amount of healing spells the party had to use to prevail.
Have you tried the theme agnostic Genesis system used in the current Star Wars rpg? I love so much this cinematic system which allow to fail a test but with good consequences and vice versa.
Hi Bob. I know this is sorta exactly what you made this video to prevent, but I bought a system called BranCalonia at GenCon last year and it’s a delightful adaptation of 5e that caps characters at lvl 6 while also supporting a very Princess Bride/spaghetti fantasy vibe. It was a joy to come across and read through.
I have run a game using the 1st Edition of the Lord of the Rings (Adventures in Middle Earth). It was a lot of fun and we really enjoyed diving into the world of Middle Earth. I personally like the One Ring system better the the 5e but it was still fun. I do have to say to get the Epic Lord of the Rings feel I did have to bring back 4e minions.
Now that you've fully articulated the "Just play pathfinder/homebrew" dichotomy, we'll have to invent a new contrarian thing to say about your videos instead. I'm thinking: "Just play Skyrim" or, "Just listen to an audio book while playing Parcheesi, it's basically the same as a roleplaying game at that point."
Our group played Adventures in Middle-earth when Cubicle 7 owned the One Ring. The beauty was that the mechanics were familiar, but it never really felt like 5e. We have moved on to Mythras and BRP because I grew tired of classes and levels. Those were two things I could not see completely homebrewing out of D&D.
Part of me wished I had picked up that book when it was still available, but I guess even then, it had that issue of not quite being 5e fantasy and not quite being LotR
This was great! I literally had this debate recently between ordering the 5E version of TOR or picking up TOR itself. I ultimately went with TOR 2E. I wanted to try the system as it was.
@@BobWorldBuilder It feels like a very rules-heavy system so far, but I like what it's doing thematically. I'll be running it next week with some friends. We'll see how it goes!
Thanks for bringing some attention to The One Ring Bob! It’s probably my favorite system out there right now. I actually run the game in my own homebrew world, which works very well, especially if the themes and tones that you like are similar to Tolkien’s works. A small distinction that I think is important to make: TOR is not a traditional d6 dice pool system, it’s actually base D12 (or 2D12, take the higher, if favored in the skill) with D6s added for every level in a skill. Also, while it is roll high, it’s rolled against your own target numbers (20 minus the attribute level), rather than variable DCs! It’s an awesome game, and one that I love introducing new people to!
Love the comparison and your thoughts! For me I had big problems with 5e’s core mechanic and the combat was both slow and not fun. I homebrewed the hell out of it to try and fix it but I found that the issues were too far baked into the system. There’s something freeing about homebrew, but wow there’s something even more freeing about just being able to play a game unaltered and love it.
I don't mind humour in my RPGs.... but I tend to be more the type that prefers a more serious tone to the narrative (with only rare moments of levity to break, release the tension of story arcs). That said, unpopular opinion here.... but rules can drive style of play. You alluded to it yourself in this vid. So having played out D&D for so long, I've experienced most of it's "themes" ad nauseum. I am slowly gravitating to taking an "anything but D&D" approach to my tabletop time, just because I need new horizons.
if i were to compare it to videogame mods, id say its better to drop the homebrewing if you have around 100 mods just to change a bunch of stuff you dont like about your current system... its personally why i hopped on over to pathfinder 2e from D&D 5e... the action economy makes a whole lot more sense, more races and classes, and the way feats and stuff work makes a whole lot more sense imo(as well as the abillity to attack multiple times without the need to be a combat specialist class to begin with).
My group and I have been playing D&D for twenty years and we gave The One Ring a shot (the 1st edition) and loved it. We ended up playing for over a year. Great system. We have the second edition but haven't given it a go yet. As for trying new games - I'm not sure I understand the hesitation. For me, new games are exciting. They bring back the joy of opening up my copy of the red box back in 1980. Every game has taught me something new, something that I can add to my current game. No one game can do it all, so it's up to us to try them all!
The analogy I like to use is that D&D 5e is a massive wading pool. It's perfect for chilling in with your friends but you're gonna hurt your head if you dive too deeply. It stretches out far and wide throughout the ttrpg world, with just enough coverage that you COULD run any sort of game in it, but if you wanted to focus on some sort of specific theme it might be the wrong choice for you. But the beauty of tabletop games is that other than rulebooks, the gear tends to stay the same, so it's pretty easy to pick up a new one for whatever theme or style of game you wanna play.
Nat 1s = Peregrine Took stealth roll in the Mines of Moria Sean Bean rolls a nat 1 on Uncanny Dodge in everything, and he did it as Boromir too. Peter Jackson rolled a nat 1 on The Hobbit, if that counts.
I stopped running 5e around fall last year, before all the OGL drama. My group started playing Symbaroum, and we haven’t looked back. It does the Dark Fantasy vibe we were looking for very well, in addition to keeping PCs mortal and making magic dangerous. Additionally, the sociopolitical landscape of Ambria, the Davokar, and beyond is intriguing, so that’s helped to hook my players into the world in conjunction with the mechanics. Also, Pippin knocking the skeleton and bucket into the well in Moria is a Nat 1, for sure.
This brought me back to the 3e/d20 days, when we got stuff like Call of Cthulhu d20 or Diablo d20. It's so trippy to think that Monte Cook made a World of Darkness game using 3e-ish rules.
During the pandemic I ran Adventures in Middle Earth over Zoom and we had a blast! The rights got bought back for One Ring, but the Journey, Embarkation, Arrival, Audience, Fellowship and Shadow mechanics are great systems to run. Especially as LOTR is less about dungeon crawling and more about walking around a lot.
Learning new games teaches us to make better homebrew, and helps us understand how rules and dice odds work. I've played in many games where there are random, broken house rules, and you can tell that there wasn't much thought given to how they can be abused to break the game.
I’m glad that people are being less close-minded about systems other than 5e. Yeah, you can put off-road tires on a limo, but why the hell would you do that instead of just taking a 4 wheel drive jeep?
A meta example of a natural 20 in Lord of the Rings is when Aragorn deflects a knife out of midair with his sword in the first movie. That was an actual (blunted) knife that the stuntman was supposed to throw past Viggo’s head, but in the heat of the moment he accidentally aimed it straight at Viggo. So that desperate deflection at the last second with his sword was 100% genuine.
actually this is a common misconception, it was meant to be thrown at him but he was supposed to dodge, but in one take he deflected it instead and it was such a good take they kept it
When I introduced my friends to TTRPGs, I didn’t start with 5e so we didn’t have that problem and we also play so infrequently we kind of expect to have to relearn the rules for every campaign.
Homebrewing is great. Trying different games is also great. Playing exactly by the book is great too. So is making everything up as you go along. As long as you're getting what you want out of the game, you're doing it right.
The Vala rolled so many nat 1s on Morgoth’s deception checks. I love lotr and am starting a game very soon using the lotr roleplay 5e. The idea is to follow a group of dwarves helping Balin reclaim Moria (alternate timeline) and I’m excited for it to be partly adventure and partly a settlement builder as they try to find resources for the dwarves rebuilding. “Just play pathfinder.”
Much much much much prefer to try something new, because not only is it giving new experiences, new inspirations, and realizing how clunky dnd is, and also not support wotc, but also supporting indie.
I always recommend people try out different games, you never know when you could find your new favorite, and even if you end up preferring a modified 5e, your time spent exploring can give you new tools/ideas to bring back with you. Although this is coming from someone who's decided that the EXACT system they want doesn't exist out there, and is currently trying to build their own, so I'm 1000% onboard with modifying systems to your hearts content.
Here's a handy rule of thumb: if you want a game that is based around resource attrition, has several encounters per day (basically a dungeon or dungeon-like adventure structure), is high fantasy with soft magic, and uses a d20, then congratulations! You can probably make 5e work for your game idea. If your idea doesn't meet all of those qualifications, you're probably better off looking at other systems because those qualities are core characteristics of 5e. Great video as always!
It takes way less time to learn a new system than it does to homebrew 5e properly. Even vanilla 5e places way too much of a time/effort burden on the DM.
My take on the d20 mechanic is to use 4 custom d6s ranging from 0 to 5 (bonus points to whoever finds those where the 0 is actually made to look sinister, such as with a skull icon), so that each d20 roll is instead a 4D roll (that's what I used to call those in my home-brewed idea), adding up to a range of [0..20]. This produces a pseudo-normal distribution, the mean number is, in fact, 10 (and not 10.5...), and if anyone still wants to reward (un)lucky rolls, you can combine it with the UA variant that treats the lowest die roll - here, that would be 0 - as a -10 instead and the highest roll, 20, as a roll of +30 instead.
LOTR--when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli fail to recognize Gandalf because now he's wearing a white robe instead of a grey one. That's a Nat 1 perception check. BTW "Just play Pathfinder" would make a great drinking game for you tubers.
Sleight of Hand nat 1 on the remains that tumble down and alert the goblins in Moria. If the 'fly you fools' was really advising them to go to the eagles, nat 1 on the insight check.
@@BobWorldBuilder In the 3rd(?) Hobbit movie, Legolas's player rolled a nat 20 to leap across falling rocks before asking the DM if it was possible, then got really pissy and whiny until the DM caved and just let it happen.
I will say, I come into these videos biased, as I play 5e mostly for my friends/the community of people I know who play it. As a system itself, it never fails to disappoint me, and my rotation of games if left to my own devices are WoD, PF2E, M&M, and a dash of apocalypse reloaded games. So whenever I see this debate I see it as another harpoon in the white whale of 5e dominance that may make it easier for me to get people I know will like other games to try them That said, overall this video was pretty well thought out and enjoyable,
Pippin knocking the armor down the well in Moria. I think you might enjoy Savage Worlds. Exploding dice allow for swing and snake-eyes gives you critical failures. Its wounds system means that even "low-level" foes can get lucky and threaten an experienced character. The system is super easy to learn and a lot of the combat rules will feel intuitive coming from 5e. I still think 5e does medieval fantasy a little better than Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, but I have old school D&D friends who swear by it now. There's also a medieval Deadlands setting in the pipe, but that will have a darker theme (and you may want to ignore the six-guns).
I gave my group a choice about they wanted to do - it was a simple The One Ring is fantastic! The D6 and D12 dice pool is awesome and the experience point features are interesting! Makes it feel more like character growth and the advantage is you don't have to use the council feature if you don't want to. Absolutely love The One Ring! Nice to see it getting some airtime!
Hey, Bob. Have you ever heard or tried Fabula Ultima? It's a JRPG-inspired TTRPG, my experience so far has been great. It has streamlined rules and modular character creation system. I wanna know your opinion about this RPG.
I have finally settled on a fun fast d20 game I threw together with some parts 5e, some Index Card RPG (especially the attitude), a little PF 2e (mostly class ideas and feats), and some OSR stuff. It is simple, fast, and works.
I’m not a fan of a lot of things 5e has done and continues to do, but with the right DM/GM it can be super, super fun. This is why I’m creating my own TTRPG while researching every TTRPG.
Side note: If you are playing 5e and dabbling in multiverses, having a 5e compatible supplement means that you can actually easily slot characters back and forth from the setting.
Funny enough my setting I made for multiple TTRPG systems is basically me saying “let’s mix every franchise I like into one” so my settings material plane is a massive galaxy. If I want to run vanilla D&D set my players on a planet with no tech but have the world know about magic. Want to run Star Wars, set the players in the star wars part of the galaxy where learning about magic is really hard to learn about. I could keep going on. I have been thinking at some point to do a full multiverse travel campaign where playing in a heavily modified D&D 5e with a bunch of make X into D&D 5e rule sets would come in handy.
One thing that is absolutely essential to realize is that if you’re a Lord of the Rings fan *at all,* you really need to buy these books. The One Ring (either standalone or 5e) is bar none the greatest addendum to the Legendarium in the last 40 years. The author has managed to build out Tolkien’s world (especially The Shire) and made it come to life while staying true to the source material and the spirit of Tolkien in a way I never thought possible.
d20 is still my favourite system because almost everything has a d20 version. Star Wars, Paranoia, Warcraft, LoTR, Call of Cthulhu, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc... had official d20 releases. On top of that you can find unofficial d20 rules exist for Naruto, Bleach, Doctor Who, Discworld, or almost any IP you can imagine. I'm so glad Paizo kept d20 alive and Pathfinder is still my go-to ruleset no matter what I'm building.
I had to run a test game of Pathfinder to get one of my players who was skeptical about changing systems to sign off on it. It's a great system but I needed to make sure that the way I run it and the way that she plays are compatible before I could commit to switching this group to a new system.
I've run Edge of Darkness for three mainly dnd players, and I gotta say, I find COC so much easier to get into and also for the group to rp. There's no reliance on special skills or magic as the only signifying character trait. They had so much interaction it was amazing to watch. Also I felt the flow was much better, where dnd comes to a big halt when combat rolls around.
I went from DnD to Pathfinder, burned out on GMing, explored a variety of other games, and ended up primarily running Fate while sprinkling in other games based on what they have to offer. Having a "home game" that you and your party are comfortable with is very valuable, especially if the game is generalist enough to meet most of your needs through homebrew. But exploring other, more specialist systems occasionally is a great way to get new ideas and avoid getting stuck in a rut!
I like the notion that Frodo could have rolled a nat 1 when he tried to catch the one ring while lying on the floor of the Prancing Pony. Instead of catching it in his hand, the ring slipped on his outstretched finger and made him vanish, bringing heaps of unwanted attention to him and his fellow hobbits as well as hasten the black riders closer! That's so much more flavorful than simply, depicting "Oh no! He failed miserably and the ring of power rolls across the busy floor."
No one can't. Sometimes a genre change should involve a rule set change. D20 outside of fantasy is awful. I played D20 Star Wars and it just felt like playing D&D with differently name D&D classes. Note my group opted to stay with D&D 3.5 after trying out 5th edition.
Just play Pathfinder 2e. Now let me elaborate. I am not just some troll trying to annoy loyal 5e players. The defficiencies of 5e are well known and almost unanimously acknowladged. Just imagine it is an issue about a different type of product, let's say a car. One car barely holds together. It is missing a lot of essential parts (rules for downtime for example) and you have to invent your own parts and glue them together with existing parts. Some of the parts are disfunctional (for example boring combat thanks to every monster having an attack of opportunity) and have to be tampered with. You are constantly fixing leaks with your own duct tape and you hope you will get a couple of extra miles from this failing car. Or you can have another car that has all the right parts at right places. And if some of the parts feel to complicated you can just ignore them and the car still works just fine. And also the new car without missing parts and leaks and duct tape fixex is completely free. And now you have the OGL fiasco as a cherry on top. For me it's a no brainer.
After years of homebrewing D&D, I finally realized there are SO many other games out there, many of which capture the tone and fit mechanics to it better, or are specialized ways of "doing the Thing" that are better suited to that particular Thing, than D&D. For D&D-ish games I like Deathbringer and Black Sword Hack; otherwise Cairn, Cephus Quantum Starfarer or other lite or genre-suited systems.
I confess this video wasn’t what I was expecting. I was expecting more details on comparing how TOR and the 5eLotR systems utilise mechanics to showcase the theme. Maybe examples of TOR over complicating some sections or 5e not being capable of carrying certain themes. Would you be interested in doing a more in depth comparison in the future? I feel like it’s be very helpful for this who are homebrewing to get a better understanding of what could be (and not) in the scope for homebrew and what it’s limitations might be.
Pathfinder is an amazing product of detailed minutiae designed to make combat feel like a board game rather than a role-playing game. That level of complexity and number crunching, I'm sure, will be attractive to some players but not me. I GM a Pathfinder game and am switching over to 13th Age. What was the deciding factor? I took a PC from our home brew and rewrote it to fit Pathfinder rules. It was a 3rd level Rogue and the online character sheet had an option to print out all of the feats and skills for handy reference. It was 31 pages. 31 PAGES! For a player completely new to RPGs I think Pathfinder is a mistake. For seasoned veterans looking for number crunching, then it's for you.
Well, TTRPGs are social games. They require not just you, but several other players to agree to play. This isn't 1982, were kids could have the entire summer off and no video games and Internet to deal with. Any game you run in 2023 typically requires that you group find time to learn it, agree to the setting, commit time (typically weekly sessions for months), etc. to this. So, most folks are lucky if they can get any game going. There are certainly big advantages in those cases of picking a game system and setting most of your players know, generally like, etc. vs. some system which people don't know what they are getting, if it will be fun, if it's worth a learning curve, or one or more folks don't want to try. This is doubly true if you are recruiting new players or (gasp) a DM. We have a solid group, but even we typically only try a new RPGA between D&D campaigns. Honestly, it only takes one player who isn't keen on a new system and well... it's better to play what people all generally like than try to force even one player who doesn't like something into playing it. This goes with homebrew to a lesser extent. More changes, rules, unpublished settings, etc. you use... typically the less consensus you have with three, four, or more other players.
The trick is not to ask people to join a campaign in a new system, but just a single session. Surely most groups can swing that, and everyone can at least get a feel for if they'll like the system enough to continue. As a plus, some system have all the rules avaialble for free online, so no monetary investment is needed to get a taste. Letting a single person, especially if they are not the GM, dictate what the group plays, is silly to me - like letting one picky friend always decide where you eat. Why would someone willingly do that? If one must, then play the new system during a session when that curmudgeon isn't available.
All true. And I agree with the other reply here, that just running those one shots or mini campaigns between long stretches of the group's preferred game is totally fine.
@@xczechr We are still talking people (typically friends) and they are often funny. 1. Times between campaigns are rare. Maybe once every on or two years. 2. I don't like the restaurant analogy. Pressuring someone to do something they don't like for hours isn't something I (or most people) like to do. You are then imparting friendships into it. What if the player says "No thanks, I'd rather stay at home and do X." 3. Times between campaigns are often better for 'down time'. There can be lots of other things which don't require as much learning, effort, etc. which you could also do which everyone likes. For example, we often play card or board games. So it isn't necessarily new 5e campaign or new X system, but a dozen other things we could also do. 4. All this is far more of an issue if you are recruiting a new group. It's easy on a forum, comic shop, gaming club, etc. to put the word out for a 5e campaign. It's harder for a new system. 5. Many systems are going to deserve a longer trial than one session. That's isn't much time. It took us almost ten sessions before we gave up on 4e. We did DragonAge for months and liked it (and that was a simplistic system to learn). Even a simply game requires a few sessions to get used to the rules, learn from mistakes, and give it a try. Even for a one-shot, that would require the players to read, learn, etc. between sessions. 6. If other people enjoy it, but one doesn't, do you continue? I've had folks in our group reluctantly agree to try something, we enjoyed it, but several sessions in we had a meeting and decided to end it because one player didn't. So, there is a valid thought process not to start something if someone is already against it at the start. I'm not saying people shouldn't, I'm just saying a lot of people don't. IMO, social issues are far bigger issues on trying something new vs. something you know works, vs. specific issues with rules, systems, settings, etc. That said, besides suggesting trying something new between campaigns, I'd also suggest that someone other than the DM suggest it and agree to run it. This often gets the DM onboard (as they get to be a player for once) and doesn't come across as the DM using their 'veto' in suggesting the game.
The thing is I get both ends of this discussion, because there are good reasons for either modding a system you like or picking up a different system. Personally I think it's down to effort. If you just want to diverge in your campaign for a session or a single adventure into something else, or if you just want to have a one-shot to have a change of pace, then the mod/homebrew is definitely fitting. If you want to use 5e for a campaign where a group of Anne Rice type vampires have to navigate monstrous societies in modern day cities though, I believe that you will have an easier time with a more suitable tone in the rules if you just pick up Vampire: The Masquerade. Because it doesn't matter that much if something is unbalanced if it's only present for a single episode, or for a mini adventure, but making something work in the long run, potentially with a whole heap of other changes on top becomes increasingly difficult. So depending on the changes and the circumstances there are good reasons for one suggestion or another. Of course there are also bad reasons for either. Oh and as for the fumble having been rolled... Gimli in the elven forest comes to mind... also, if filming examples count: Viggo Mortensen breaking his toe on a helmet he kicked would totally qualify.
For me mechanics very much contribute to the feel of a system. Sure you could add girtty survival and sanity mechanivs to 5e and play a cult based pyscholgical horror game, but the mechanics of Call of Cthulu are built to evoke the feelings and expirences that compliment that kind of game. Im all for "oh well this doesnt exist in the system we are playing and to make it more fun im adding it" however I'll also vocally advocate to try new systems. Ive tried 5 in the past year alone that I love and have added to my repertoire. Learning *most* new systems doesnt feel (to me) as hard as people make it out to me, but everything is different for everyone. But some games just do their *thing* elegantly and really its hard to replicate that by just bolting on whatever mechanics you want to try to another system
I mean, homebrewing goes all the way back to origins of D&D and RPGs themselves, so there's nothing wrong in making new mechanics and similar stuff for our home campaigns. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try other systems from time to time: it is always good to have fresh and different perspectives, leaving our comfort zone. Like yourself, I'm also a fan of low-level 5E adventures, capping PC progrression at level 6 in my campaigns. We use DCC random tables for making magic and other things unpredictable and lethal, but also fun to run. Those themes and tone of pulp fantasy are what my gaming group of "neo-grognards" likes the most, and we can achieve them mainly by homebrewing ideias from other great systems we tried before. Balance is everything (except combat balance, which is an illusion).
I would try them both. I am always up for trying a new TTRPG system. I too have a LotR 5e game, but I am not sure if it is the same game you're speaking of or not. I'll send you a picture!
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I just think 5th is trash and Pathfinder is far superior.
@@arbhall7572 nah, Pathfinder is good, but it has problems with inconsistency across classes due to the many choices of modularity. It is difficult to approach for new players, but conversely is not too bad for players familiar with TTRPGs. Regardless though, compared to D&D 5e, it is a LOT of reading to get started.
@@arbhall7572 No game is "trash" except maybe FATAL and that TSR thing.
Everything else, even 4e, has merits.
@@ulyssesthedm Are you talking pathfinder 1 or 2, because 2 is very consistent across classes. Every class has a job to do and can also deal damage.
For me personally, I realize I was being stubborn and prideful in refusing to try out other systems.
I was proud of my homebrew and even considered making my own system from scratch before I considered trying other games.
I realize now that I just wanted the ideas to be mine. Once I got over myself and started reading and playing other systems, I saw that everyone had already done my ideas and that I was growing so much more as a GM, a player, and even a fledgling game designer just by exposing myself to all these ideas.
Btw, I don't like pathfinder, but I'm glad I tried it. It is important to know what you don't like and why, maybe more important than knowing what you like and why.
Yeah I think it's great to make your own stuff and still find inspiration by checking out what other people have made :)
I don't understand the "Don't like D&D? Go play Pathfinder!" approach.
Somehow Paizo, (whose staff felt the need to form a Union...) have been turned into RPG Jesus following WotC shitting the bed over the OGL.And now some people have somehow got it into their heads that playing Pathfinder is supporting "Smaller Independent" games.
It would be funny if it wasn;t so sad.
Try something genuinely different and not a D&D clone/spinoff/OSR.
Seriously... try a d100 system. Some of them have free PDFs of their basic rules systems that you can just download for nothing, and use to get a taste of the game before shelling out on a whol;e new set of books. (Or, in most cases... just a couple of books)
"TTRPG" TH-camrs are never going to truly diversify away from D&D until WotC shoots a puppy in the head on National Television, because D&D is where the clicks are at. Some have been hovering around Pathfinder waiting to see which way the wind blows, but the further we get from the OGL fiasco, the more they are all drifting home...
I'm still waiting for a streamlined medium crunch point buy system. Such a simple and obvious thing that the RPG industry keeps dancing around. I don't want to HB it, but I've been waiting a long time.
@@andrewtomlinson5237 Yeah I hate the whole "Pathfinder have it" approach, there are other systems than just DnD and pathfinder and despite DnD lacking some machanics so what? I don't need rules for every single aspect of life, I GMed system that have rules how to kill and how to die and that are basically all the rules there, no crafting, no swimming, no making nukes nothing. And it was so much fun and after first session I basically knew all the rules.
Each system focuses on something else, DnD have quite complex combat with feats, spells etc. Alien is great horror game where Alien is actual threat and you're trying to do your thing in secret from others. Could you make Alien in DnD? Maybe but could you recreate the same feeling? I was actually afraid few times playing Alien and stress was real
@@BobWorldBuilderI think people make better ideas when they're in dialogue with the ideas of others, it's humbling, because the less you know the easier it is to -feel- original, but if you find a -true- and informed new idea to bring to the table, thats even more rewarding
Viggo Mortensen rolled a nat 1 when he kicked that helmet.
(But a nat 20 when he slashed that dagger aside with his sword!)
Ahhh totally!
That nat 1 certainly wasn’t a performance check!
Pippins Stealth check in Moria was rolled with advantage and he rolled double ones and the GM was like...ok here's what happens...
Yeah that's the only explanation lol
That was my first thought when he mentioned nat 1's in LotR
This was my first thought too.
Wow I wrote this before seeing this post
Mine three.
I have a peculiar take on this one: if 5e was the first TTRPG that got you to take TTRPGs seriously as a hobby, then one is absolutely inclined to homebrew it until it cannot be so.
But the first TTRPG that got me to take the hobby seriously as... well, a hobby... is Monsterhearts 2e (PbtA). So when my group started playing 5e with the same passion as our Monsterhearts games, we sort of homebrewed both to feel like the other. We wanted the drama of the PbtA game, and the action of 5e.
Then I got to play Call of Cthulhu and Quest which brought in aspects that we enjoyed from Monsterhearts and 5e.
All this to say play other games, but don't be afraid to homebrew them anyway.
Bingo!
My first TTRPG was actually Doctor Who, followed closely by Mistborn. Only after those did I finally start playing D&D (4e). I think having those rules-light systems as my foundation has really affected how I view tabletop gaming as a whole.
I am a big, big fan of dice pool systems; especially ones where you get some freedom in how to build your pool in a given situation with some resource management. It makes each and every decision such an active one.
As for nat 1s in LotR - everything Pippin ever does. Just every time he's in a scene it's a nat 1 (which is why he's the best)
He did some good Stealth and Acrobatics checks to light the beacon of Amon Dîn in the third movie
But the Palantir seemed so cool!!
If you like building your Dice pool I'd really suggesst THe Wildsea its hella freeing on how you can build your pool and how to roleplay it all out because you are kinda supposed to think of an "argument" (harsh word for it but it works) when making your pool and roleplay that out
Have you checked out the Genesys system from edge studios (formally from Fantasy Flight Games)?
Except his persuasion roll with the Ents.
It ENTIRELY depends on what you're trying to do. If I want to just run a new setting without major changes to how a normal D&D world would work, I run it in 5e or Pathfinder for ease. but I would never use 5e to run a modern or sci-fi game, or one where I want gritty risks and dark tones. And some settings are entirely married to their system and just "translating" would be watering the experience down (Shadowrun comes to mind). But my biggest suggestion is to actually TRY new systems, don't just assume that because you *can* do it in 5e that you should. I have a pretty negative opinion of 5e purely from the online sentiment to try to just make a 5e hack for anything. There are better RPGs than D&D 5e out there
Yep some mechanics will naturally be a better fit for some themes/tones, but there's plenty of room for nuance based on people's personal tastes
Yeah, systems purposefully made to reflect the setting are generally better if you want to play in that setting. Warhammer comes to mind here, with its high danger of combat and magical mishaps being a core part of the mechanics.
Another example is World of Darkness, where the central tension is a tug-of-war between the bestial and human side of every character, which is reflected in some version of the Humanity track that most other mechanics reference.
As for trying new games, IMHO, the best option is to go to conventions. There are always people playing a wide variety of RPGs, including some experimental and homebrew systems. You usually also get pre-generated characters for the more complicated games, so you can get right into the action.
I run and play OSR games. Last time I rolled character with just 1 HP, dying is very common. In DnD it's much harder to die for better or worse, that's the first difference between DnD and other games I played and honestly I don't mind dying at this point. Of course I try not to but shit happens you just sometimes have max 1 hp and boss decides to to roll d8 damage on you
@@realdragon player death isn't the system its the DM. Players can die quite easily in D&D. I have never minded dying, but the best experiences are from near death moments in my opinion, which is what I strive for when i run.
@@silasrobertshaw8122 Yeah I know DnD can be deadly. I don't experience near death same as death, when someone (or me) dies it's more "o shit I need to be more careful"
As you’ve pointed out, learning another game system is usually way less difficult than it was to learn 5e or PF. Your Cairn and Skate Wizards videos are perfect examples of that.
I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, changing systems to fit a bit better up is part of GMing and playing. On the other hand, I see people reinventing PF2 within 5e often, which is not really all that time effective.
Between these, The One Ring
Yeah there's plenty of room for people to do both!
Counterpoint: I didn't read whole PHB for DnD and don't really wanna read 300 pages of rules for Pathfinder
@@realdragon the actual rules of patfinder about playing are basically the same lenght as dnds, there are more pages for feats, items etc but generally there are also more pages in dnd which you ignore/homebrew (jumping for example)
@@anonimcz5381 Fair, but I also want to experience something else than DnD and system very close to DnD
@@realdragon nice, id reccomend to try out shadowrun (5e) but its probably the hardest ttrpg that i know how to play and also the mechanics arent all that good
I homebrew a lot for 5e, it is a fun creative challenge for me to make modifications that i like that still feel like they fit within the larger system. I enjoy the effort that is required there, if I didn't i would play a different system (probably an older D&D edition)
Totally, just having fun designing stuff is worthwhile!
Trivia: One of my patrons actually wrote the one ring starter set.
Neat!
Baron, I just picked up the One Ring starter set + core book and am reading through it. You should do a video on it! Would love to get your input on how to run it.
Didn't ask.
The more you know!
@@spooderousfor your opinion? Yeah, nobody did.
It's nice to know of creators being active within the community.
The mentioned familiarity barrier of 5e is forming a kind of intellectual blockade on the collective mind of our hobby... imagine the grim effect if such a blockade were in place on novels, art or even scientific thinking.
It is kinda a thing in science, "I learned this so it's that way" is way of thinking of some scientist at least in my field. But I don't think they think that way about too important things, for example in astrophysics cm/g/s is still used instead SI m/kg/s (not too important) but with constant influx of new scientists things like that is slowly changing (except units in astrophysics, the war on which units to use is still a thing)
Its exist in books .its called lord of the rings
These do exist in the other areas.
@@yuvalgabay1023 Ehhh not really. Tolkien is still an important figure in fantasy, but nobody is going to give a shit about your LotR ripoff series these days. The tone and style of epic fantasy has changed. Now everyone is trying (and largely failing) to rip off George RR Martin.
@@Salsmachevi say mainly tv is trying to do that
In Moria, Pippin failed his investigation check so hard he pushed a skeleton down a well.
Truly the worst investigation/stealth check in LotR
I think the "play p2e" mindset is pretty fair when people try to reinvent the wheel and make a far crunchier version of 5e. You don't have to play it forever, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice not to try it. You can pick up on some really cool things to snag for your game if you don't like it, at the very least.
What I like about pf2e as a player is that it makes me feel empowered to get creative with my character builds, and I don't need to ask permission from the GM unless the rules specifically say I need to (in the form of it saying "uncommon" or "rare"). Unlike D&D 5e, I don't have to wonder if I am doing cool stuff in a campaign because I'm friends with the DM or if I really am clever with my build because there's a rule for everything. Rather than beg the DM, I can just look up the rules and do it.
Why would you want a crunchier system m
@@ex0stasis72"creative" "pf2". I didn't really feel that. There's so much minor buffs in pf2 I don't even know why they'd matter. They don't even stack like 4e.
AND YES YOU DO NEED THE GM'S PERMISSION FOR PF2.
An actual freeform game is more like Savage Worlds where it's classless, the powers/spells, feats/edges are available to all who can attain them and you get to flavor them as you wish. "My summon ally is my shadow, a small flying robot, my companion pixie, an illusionary doppelganger.".
@@elgatochurro I'm not entirely sure if I can articulate the idea of personal taste, but I enjoy more creative freedom in perks and feats for my character so I have more interesting build options without absurd multi-classing.
@@elgatochurro what I meant is that my creativity is rewarded with mechanical benefits in PF2e rather than just for the sake of flavor and roleplay like in D&D 5e. In PF2e, the odds of me doing the same actions in the same way over and over again are so low. In 5e, every time I come up with some alternative to the usual, it's narratively interesting, but mechanically worse. Is that the DM's fault? Maybe, but in PF2e, it's so balanced that it doesn't leave room for the GM to mess up on things like that because there are rules for everything. And I can look them up and explain to the GM why I can do them.
isildur on his final wisdom save in mount Doom.
But seriously, he had been caryying the most evil object in all of Arda for months and failed to it in the place it was at the height of its power, so i think we can just blame the DM and not his roles.
Ooohh so true.
I like learning new systems (I learned how to run like 4 over the last couple months) but GURPS is quickly becoming my favorite because I can literally run anything I want in it, it also has most of the mechanics I was trying to homebrew into D&D, I kinda miss the D&D spells but I can remake them in GURPS.
GURPS Thaumatology is instrumental in building new magic systems! A rulebook on how to make your own rules is so helpful.
That's awesome!
@@ardentdrops I've been having a ton of fun with Thaumatology I always loved making magic systems for my own personal projects and it feels like that but I can actually put my system into an RPG after I finish it!
It's often said because there are folks that refuse to even consider other systems, even when other systems have exactly what they're looking for. It's a shame, I think we should all play multiple systems, as they each have their benefits. In fact, my group sets aside one week per year where we play new systems for five straight days, and we always have a blast.
Such a bold approach! Very cool way to get a crash course on a bunch of games.
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I've commented on your videos pointing out similar mechanics in other games it's because I find it useful to look at how other designers have tackled similar designs. It's intended as further inspiration not a suggestion that you should run off and play X instead.
Yeah that's usually how I take it unless someone outright says "play this instead" because most of the time folks here are so nice I don't graft onto them the intent of trying to proselytize for their game.
Totally! I appreciate those comments almost every time. Sometimes it's just funny, like on the recent "hero coins" video, where at least a few dozen people left the same comment about Savage Worlds. I'm sure they're right, but read the other comments first! haha
As you said, One Ring is built from the ground up to specifically capture the feel of Middle-Earth/LotR. I don't know about the 5E version, but TOR uses Hope as a metacurrency, there's incentives to form strong bonds within your Fellowship, there's the whole Shadow/Eye Awareness system... it all just feels right. Plus the combat system of choosing stances and special weapon strikes is just *chef's kiss*
I'm a big advocate for reading/trying new games, ESPECIALLY if you're trying to write/design homebrew or even your own game. The more you expose yourself to, the deeper your knowledge pool to draw from.
I think you said it in a previous video but imo it's the equivalent of eating the same thing for every meal. Like yeah pizza is great but I really don't think your head would explode if you tried curry.
Yeah I probably should have spent a little more time to mention those mechanics. Haven't played it yet, but when reading, those elements really made me feel like this game gets LotR right
@@BobWorldBuilder I think you'll have a blast with it. My one quibble with TOR is that it assumes a long campaign by default so imo it's not wonderful for one offs and short adventures, but nobody said I couldn't hack it 😉
Matt Colville said something years ago that propelled me and my groups out of the bland and risk averse WotC-Hasbro 5E: “the mechanics should support the fantasy.” The One Ring, Star Trek Adventures, Forbidden Lands, Call of Cthulhu…they all implement systems features that drive the intended fiction of the setting.
I think the best practice is to still buy other systems even if you just wanna play 5e, cause they tend to have ideas you can yoink for your Homebrew.
Honestly i think this is a conversation to have with the entire group. ( really the most important part of any game, is that everyone in the table is willing and enthusiastic about playing it.. so play the game that makes everyone in the table to be interested )
Disclaimer: from now on i'm going to talk about ME and MY experience.
But.. FOR ME specifically after playing like.. almost all my life playing for more than 30 years. and D&D being my first game but not the only one... and even creating half a docen of distinct games from diceless RPG to full d20 systems... The most important things for me is "alignment" (don't think D&D for alignment but on everyone being aligned with the expectations).
Systems could support or impede some fantasies. and i any TTRPG is about having a "shared" fantasy of some sort, the most important thing for it to flurish is that everyone at the table have a compatible fantasy and the rules support that kind of fantasy. That's why i think that session 0 should happen BEFORE picking the game system. having everyone sharing expectations and exitement about what is about to happen is more important than any particular system. after everyone agrees on a Style, tone, and the kind of things that cares about, then you pick the system that would more efficiently support that kind of fantasy, and you homebrew whatever you need to ensure that happen
Really great point! Thanks for bringing this up
People can suggest whatever they prefer to do, but not everyone has all the information to make a decision for you. So my suggestion is try other RPG systems, or at least read some of the mechanics, and if you don't like the system, don't play it, but you might also get some ideas on how to adjust 5e as well. Both methods are equally viable, they're just not both the right solution for every person.
Great advice!
I think you covered it in the first couple of minutes
Whatever game makes your table happy to play.
I love the combat in The One Ring and rolling a Gandalf rune on the d12 gives me the same buzz as rolling a nat20, and it will potentially happen more often!
A lot more often haha, yeah it's neat to see analogous mechanics between the systems
The sheer breadth and depth of variety in the TTRPG hobby leave me breathless and wide eyed as a kid in a candy store. My time on this earth is so very limited, I'll never play all the games I want to experience. I would feel it was wasteful, to take one I have already played, and enjoyed, and thhen try warp it to fit something that already has it's own rules and themes in an existing, but different game? Better to move on and try something new, learn new rules and how they effect the game. Plus the greater variety of rules I have experienced the better options at my fingertips if I ever do feel the need to make homebrew changes to the game I'm playing. I am lucky my friends feel the same way for the most part and I never struggle to get them to try something new. However, I get the joy of knowing the game inside and out and that feeling of mastery and being able to try out all the different options, so I don't judge those that stick to the one game, I just don't have that dedication or focus and need to move on after the campaign is over.
I personally never understood the sheer disgust and horror some people have to the mere thought of playing another system than D&D.
my theory is that 1) D&D is probably their first game, 2) D&D is actually quite complex and crunchy and took a while to learn, 3) the reasonable assumption is that other games are equally complex and crunchy and will also take some time to learn
@@Triceratopping One attitude I have also noticed is the false assumption that D&D is the best system out there so why even bother looking into inferior systems. When in reality, all systems have their strengths and weaknesses. For example you can't homebrew D&D to outclass blades in the dark if you want to have a campaign where you play as a thief or assassins guild.
With everything WotC did now people are moving to Pathfinder and now are glorifying it and saying how "it's better than DnD anyway". If it's that much better then why they didn't play it sooner? Imo each system have its' strengths and weakness
@@realdragon they didnt play it sooner because its not as popular because it doesnt have as much money to advertize?
@@BigmanDogs My way of thinking was the opposite "I love DnD it's great, I wonder if other systems are as good"
Since I enjoy homebrewing and there's a bunch of material for 5E, I use 5HB. I do really like bounded accuracy. I tend to peruse other systems for ideas I can use for my 5HB games.
The One Ring is now on my “to read” list. Sounds great
The right answer is both, take a new system but also homebrew it!
That's definitely my choice!
Bob, this is a brilliant video. The comparison of the 2 properties and contrast of the mechanics, is perhaps the most valuable argument for how people can differentiate and make informed choices. Well done!
While I have never had a problem with homebrew-tweaking my games, especially because over the years I've played/run a few games with wonky system rules that needed a bit of work (Fading Suns 1st & 2nd Ed., I'm looking at you!), I'm also very much in favor of playing games with systems that support unique styles of play. DCC's system supports swingy, wild, chaotic, over the top, tomfoolery. Call of Cthulhu's system supports investigative Horror. Tales from the Loop's system supports wistful, slightly nostalgic, almost cozy...but also very sad, kid-adventures. COULD you contort the 5e rules so far out of whack that you could run an investigative Horror game? Maybe. At low levels, maybe? But it would be like trying to use a screwdriver to drive a nail into a wall. You CAN do it, but the hammer is right there, and while it looks really different, it isn't actually that hard to learn how to use (not a perfect analogy, as one of my favorite games of all time, Ars Magica, has an amazing system that does a great job of capturing its unique take on Medieval Fantasy, but is actually something of a challenge to learn...But it's SO worth it!...And I'm normally a "rules lite" guy.).
I think where D&D has always lost me, in its early versions that were more deadly and grim and its new version that's more superhero-y, is in its wargame roots. Take away all the plug ins, extensions, options, and 50 years of built-up, at-table tradition, and it is still, at its core, a game about killing monsters. Can you do other things? Sure. But that's the gameplay the rules are built around. Again, using Call of Cthulhu as a counter, that's not a game about killing monsters. Can you? Sure. But if you spend all your time searching for, tracking down, and engaging in combat with monsters, you're character will die very quickly. And that doesn't change if you've been playing for 2 hours or 2 years. Your character will always be fragile and fighting will always be something best avoided if you want to survive.
I appreciate the simple breakdown of the systems you mentioned here!
Oh, man, I feel you on the _Fading Suns_ issue. I've owned every edition and still have yet to run a single session because I've never quite grokked the rules. But what a flavorful setting!
@@DevinParker, I absolutely love the setting. One of my favorite. I ran it for 2 years back around the time 2nd Ed came out, but the system was a struggle. It wasn't terrible. It just didn't quite mesh.
I'd like to run it again, but if I did, I'd likely use Basic Role Playing, which I think would be a perfect system for it.
Im currently creating my own RPG and your recommendations and videos inspire me greatly thank you
That's the best kind of comment! Thank you! :) and good luck!!
Me too! That’s a part of the hobby that’s so worth the effort!
I had this idea of thinking of RPG systems like languages. You can easily spend your entire life having to use only one language, be it English or another native language, and it being perfectly comfortable for you. There's even a degree of creativity and flexibility involved: when you lack words for concepts, you can make them up or take them from other languages. And that's fine.
However, if you want to push yourself, you can learn a new language. It's a bit of effort and sometimes requires a whole lot of changing how you think, but it ultimately can open you up to a whole lot of new experiences that you wouldn't have had just sticking to your original language. And if you ever want to make up your own language, well, now you have more to draw from.
As a bit of a side-thought-experiment, if I were to actually make comparisons between some systems to real-life languages, I would say the various editions of D&D is the cluster of Romance languages (Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, etc.). 5E would be Spanish, Pathfinder would be French, and the original D&D would be Latin. Something like GURPS would be German, with how complicated but versatile it is.
My biggest issue with 5E is that the combat is clunky and slow. I realize that to some extent this has to do with players at the table, but every time I DM it seems like the game slows to a crawl as soon as initiative is rolled. And DnD doesn’t have a ton of rules that aren’t combat based, which is why I think that it’s the rules light/ rules heavy disparity causes us to get bogged down. Currently playing a bit of Worlds Without Number and loving it! Feels like 5E with slightly different flavor when not in combat, and in combat there’s way way less abilities and such to worry about. And the Warrior class is so good at fighting that unlike DnD you don’t need to be a spell caster to feel powerful. I got DCC as well but I think that without a hardcore group (usually only can scrounge together 2-3 in person) we will get frustrated long before it gets fun.
Yep, D&D is a combat simulator, so fights definitely slow things down unless you make a bunch of changes and/or have experienced players who value keeping things quick
Gandalf said "Fly you fools!"
The Fellowship turned and attacked the 5e Balrog, whose powers and hit points were lowered so that the Fellowship could win any combat ever attempted because 5e players never lose, although the combat actually took days to resolve because all of the hit points the Balrog had and the amount of healing spells the party had to use to prevail.
Have you tried the theme agnostic Genesis system used in the current Star Wars rpg? I love so much this cinematic system which allow to fail a test but with good consequences and vice versa.
I haven't, but I have heard good thigns about it!
You're a mad man for this one, Bob
EDIT: Release the Bob DND Homebrew skill tree! THE WORLD NEEDS TO SEE IT!
😎
Seconded! I want skill trees in my TTRPGs.
I too have homebrewed my "D&D" to be a video game with Skyrim skill trees. Just kidding, no I haven't.
Skill tree stuff instead of classes sounds so interesting, I'd love to see a game that runs with that more
Hi Bob. I know this is sorta exactly what you made this video to prevent, but I bought a system called BranCalonia at GenCon last year and it’s a delightful adaptation of 5e that caps characters at lvl 6 while also supporting a very Princess Bride/spaghetti fantasy vibe. It was a joy to come across and read through.
I have run a game using the 1st Edition of the Lord of the Rings (Adventures in Middle Earth). It was a lot of fun and we really enjoyed diving into the world of Middle Earth.
I personally like the One Ring system better the the 5e but it was still fun. I do have to say to get the Epic Lord of the Rings feel I did have to bring back 4e minions.
Now that you've fully articulated the "Just play pathfinder/homebrew" dichotomy, we'll have to invent a new contrarian thing to say about your videos instead. I'm thinking: "Just play Skyrim" or, "Just listen to an audio book while playing Parcheesi, it's basically the same as a roleplaying game at that point."
Hahah we're onto something here!
Our group played Adventures in Middle-earth when Cubicle 7 owned the One Ring. The beauty was that the mechanics were familiar, but it never really felt like 5e. We have moved on to Mythras and BRP because I grew tired of classes and levels. Those were two things I could not see completely homebrewing out of D&D.
Part of me wished I had picked up that book when it was still available, but I guess even then, it had that issue of not quite being 5e fantasy and not quite being LotR
Bob the Builder, Robert Mason, Bob Worldbuilder... it's all coming together!
Great video, Bob. Thanks for the love for The One Ring Starter Set and Shire Adventures products. I was the lead author on them!
pippin fumbles a sleight of hand check in moria when he knocks the skeleton down the hole
I can't believe I didn't think of that one first xD
This was great! I literally had this debate recently between ordering the 5E version of TOR or picking up TOR itself. I ultimately went with TOR 2E. I wanted to try the system as it was.
No way! haha I hope you enjoy it!
@@BobWorldBuilder It feels like a very rules-heavy system so far, but I like what it's doing thematically. I'll be running it next week with some friends. We'll see how it goes!
Thanks for bringing some attention to The One Ring Bob! It’s probably my favorite system out there right now. I actually run the game in my own homebrew world, which works very well, especially if the themes and tones that you like are similar to Tolkien’s works.
A small distinction that I think is important to make: TOR is not a traditional d6 dice pool system, it’s actually base D12 (or 2D12, take the higher, if favored in the skill) with D6s added for every level in a skill. Also, while it is roll high, it’s rolled against your own target numbers (20 minus the attribute level), rather than variable DCs! It’s an awesome game, and one that I love introducing new people to!
Love the comparison and your thoughts!
For me I had big problems with 5e’s core mechanic and the combat was both slow and not fun. I homebrewed the hell out of it to try and fix it but I found that the issues were too far baked into the system.
There’s something freeing about homebrew, but wow there’s something even more freeing about just being able to play a game unaltered and love it.
I don't mind humour in my RPGs.... but I tend to be more the type that prefers a more serious tone to the narrative (with only rare moments of levity to break, release the tension of story arcs).
That said, unpopular opinion here.... but rules can drive style of play. You alluded to it yourself in this vid. So having played out D&D for so long, I've experienced most of it's "themes" ad nauseum. I am slowly gravitating to taking an "anything but D&D" approach to my tabletop time, just because I need new horizons.
I don't think that's an unpopular opinion at all! I did spend a chunk of this video talking about how mechanics reflect theme and tone
if i were to compare it to videogame mods, id say its better to drop the homebrewing if you have around 100 mods just to change a bunch of stuff you dont like about your current system... its personally why i hopped on over to pathfinder 2e from D&D 5e... the action economy makes a whole lot more sense, more races and classes, and the way feats and stuff work makes a whole lot more sense imo(as well as the abillity to attack multiple times without the need to be a combat specialist class to begin with).
Good comparison!
My group and I have been playing D&D for twenty years and we gave The One Ring a shot (the 1st edition) and loved it. We ended up playing for over a year. Great system. We have the second edition but haven't given it a go yet. As for trying new games - I'm not sure I understand the hesitation. For me, new games are exciting. They bring back the joy of opening up my copy of the red box back in 1980. Every game has taught me something new, something that I can add to my current game. No one game can do it all, so it's up to us to try them all!
The analogy I like to use is that D&D 5e is a massive wading pool. It's perfect for chilling in with your friends but you're gonna hurt your head if you dive too deeply. It stretches out far and wide throughout the ttrpg world, with just enough coverage that you COULD run any sort of game in it, but if you wanted to focus on some sort of specific theme it might be the wrong choice for you.
But the beauty of tabletop games is that other than rulebooks, the gear tends to stay the same, so it's pretty easy to pick up a new one for whatever theme or style of game you wanna play.
Nat 1s = Peregrine Took stealth roll in the Mines of Moria
Sean Bean rolls a nat 1 on Uncanny Dodge in everything, and he did it as Boromir too.
Peter Jackson rolled a nat 1 on The Hobbit, if that counts.
All true
I stopped running 5e around fall last year, before all the OGL drama. My group started playing Symbaroum, and we haven’t looked back. It does the Dark Fantasy vibe we were looking for very well, in addition to keeping PCs mortal and making magic dangerous. Additionally, the sociopolitical landscape of Ambria, the Davokar, and beyond is intriguing, so that’s helped to hook my players into the world in conjunction with the mechanics.
Also, Pippin knocking the skeleton and bucket into the well in Moria is a Nat 1, for sure.
This brought me back to the 3e/d20 days, when we got stuff like Call of Cthulhu d20 or Diablo d20. It's so trippy to think that Monte Cook made a World of Darkness game using 3e-ish rules.
During the pandemic I ran Adventures in Middle Earth over Zoom and we had a blast! The rights got bought back for One Ring, but the Journey, Embarkation, Arrival, Audience, Fellowship and Shadow mechanics are great systems to run. Especially as LOTR is less about dungeon crawling and more about walking around a lot.
Learning new games teaches us to make better homebrew, and helps us understand how rules and dice odds work. I've played in many games where there are random, broken house rules, and you can tell that there wasn't much thought given to how they can be abused to break the game.
Pippin's Investigation check on that dwarf skeleton on the Mines in Moria is sure a nat 1
Also, Viggo Mortensen's Athletics check to kick that orc helmet was a nat 1, but his Performance check after was nat 20
100%
I’m glad that people are being less close-minded about systems other than 5e. Yeah, you can put off-road tires on a limo, but why the hell would you do that instead of just taking a 4 wheel drive jeep?
Well said!
A meta example of a natural 20 in Lord of the Rings is when Aragorn deflects a knife out of midair with his sword in the first movie. That was an actual (blunted) knife that the stuntman was supposed to throw past Viggo’s head, but in the heat of the moment he accidentally aimed it straight at Viggo. So that desperate deflection at the last second with his sword was 100% genuine.
actually this is a common misconception, it was meant to be thrown at him but he was supposed to dodge, but in one take he deflected it instead and it was such a good take they kept it
When I introduced my friends to TTRPGs, I didn’t start with 5e so we didn’t have that problem and we also play so infrequently we kind of expect to have to relearn the rules for every campaign.
Homebrewing is great. Trying different games is also great. Playing exactly by the book is great too. So is making everything up as you go along. As long as you're getting what you want out of the game, you're doing it right.
The Vala rolled so many nat 1s on Morgoth’s deception checks.
I love lotr and am starting a game very soon using the lotr roleplay 5e. The idea is to follow a group of dwarves helping Balin reclaim Moria (alternate timeline) and I’m excited for it to be partly adventure and partly a settlement builder as they try to find resources for the dwarves rebuilding.
“Just play pathfinder.”
Much much much much prefer to try something new, because not only is it giving new experiences, new inspirations, and realizing how clunky dnd is, and also not support wotc, but also supporting indie.
Carl Urban dropping his sword out of its scabbard was his Nat 1 moment.
I really enjoyed playing and running Fellowship 2e a few months back. Super quick gameplay so you can get a lot done per session
Nice!
I always recommend people try out different games, you never know when you could find your new favorite, and even if you end up preferring a modified 5e, your time spent exploring can give you new tools/ideas to bring back with you.
Although this is coming from someone who's decided that the EXACT system they want doesn't exist out there, and is currently trying to build their own, so I'm 1000% onboard with modifying systems to your hearts content.
When I think of a fumble in lotr when Mary knocks the skeleton down in moria, alerting the boblins to their presence.
this topic is so relevant! Thanks Bob!
Here's a handy rule of thumb: if you want a game that is based around resource attrition, has several encounters per day (basically a dungeon or dungeon-like adventure structure), is high fantasy with soft magic, and uses a d20, then congratulations! You can probably make 5e work for your game idea. If your idea doesn't meet all of those qualifications, you're probably better off looking at other systems because those qualities are core characteristics of 5e.
Great video as always!
It takes way less time to learn a new system than it does to homebrew 5e properly. Even vanilla 5e places way too much of a time/effort burden on the DM.
My take on the d20 mechanic is to use 4 custom d6s ranging from 0 to 5 (bonus points to whoever finds those where the 0 is actually made to look sinister, such as with a skull icon), so that each d20 roll is instead a 4D roll (that's what I used to call those in my home-brewed idea), adding up to a range of [0..20]. This produces a pseudo-normal distribution, the mean number is, in fact, 10 (and not 10.5...), and if anyone still wants to reward (un)lucky rolls, you can combine it with the UA variant that treats the lowest die roll - here, that would be 0 - as a -10 instead and the highest roll, 20, as a roll of +30 instead.
LOTR--when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli fail to recognize Gandalf because now he's wearing a white robe instead of a grey one. That's a Nat 1 perception check. BTW "Just play Pathfinder" would make a great drinking game for you tubers.
Sleight of Hand nat 1 on the remains that tumble down and alert the goblins in Moria.
If the 'fly you fools' was really advising them to go to the eagles, nat 1 on the insight check.
Hahah absolutely!
@@BobWorldBuilder In the 3rd(?) Hobbit movie, Legolas's player rolled a nat 20 to leap across falling rocks before asking the DM if it was possible, then got really pissy and whiny until the DM caved and just let it happen.
I will say, I come into these videos biased, as I play 5e mostly for my friends/the community of people I know who play it. As a system itself, it never fails to disappoint me, and my rotation of games if left to my own devices are WoD, PF2E, M&M, and a dash of apocalypse reloaded games.
So whenever I see this debate I see it as another harpoon in the white whale of 5e dominance that may make it easier for me to get people I know will like other games to try them
That said, overall this video was pretty well thought out and enjoyable,
Pippin knocking the armor down the well in Moria.
I think you might enjoy Savage Worlds. Exploding dice allow for swing and snake-eyes gives you critical failures. Its wounds system means that even "low-level" foes can get lucky and threaten an experienced character. The system is super easy to learn and a lot of the combat rules will feel intuitive coming from 5e. I still think 5e does medieval fantasy a little better than Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, but I have old school D&D friends who swear by it now. There's also a medieval Deadlands setting in the pipe, but that will have a darker theme (and you may want to ignore the six-guns).
Yeah I'm going to have to try this one sooner or later. Many people have recommended it to me at this point haha
You’ve definitely got me a little intrigued about The One Ring.
I gave my group a choice about they wanted to do - it was a simple The One Ring is fantastic! The D6 and D12 dice pool is awesome and the experience point features are interesting! Makes it feel more like character growth and the advantage is you don't have to use the council feature if you don't want to. Absolutely love The One Ring! Nice to see it getting some airtime!
Hey, Bob. Have you ever heard or tried Fabula Ultima? It's a JRPG-inspired TTRPG, my experience so far has been great. It has streamlined rules and modular character creation system. I wanna know your opinion about this RPG.
Haven't heard of it! Personally I don't have much experience with JRPGs
I have finally settled on a fun fast d20 game I threw together with some parts 5e, some Index Card RPG (especially the attitude), a little PF 2e (mostly class ideas and feats), and some OSR stuff. It is simple, fast, and works.
I’m not a fan of a lot of things 5e has done and continues to do, but with the right DM/GM it can be super, super fun. This is why I’m creating my own TTRPG while researching every TTRPG.
Just browsing your FLGS/online for new RPGs will spark your imagination, if you LOVE games you’ll love the flavours you’ll encounter
Side note: If you are playing 5e and dabbling in multiverses, having a 5e compatible supplement means that you can actually easily slot characters back and forth from the setting.
Funny enough my setting I made for multiple TTRPG systems is basically me saying “let’s mix every franchise I like into one” so my settings material plane is a massive galaxy. If I want to run vanilla D&D set my players on a planet with no tech but have the world know about magic. Want to run Star Wars, set the players in the star wars part of the galaxy where learning about magic is really hard to learn about. I could keep going on. I have been thinking at some point to do a full multiverse travel campaign where playing in a heavily modified D&D 5e with a bunch of make X into D&D 5e rule sets would come in handy.
Excellent point!
My Shire Adventures book came with a map spot glued into the back cover, did you check Bob? I mean, before you just played Pathfinder?
One thing that is absolutely essential to realize is that if you’re a Lord of the Rings fan *at all,* you really need to buy these books. The One Ring (either standalone or 5e) is bar none the greatest addendum to the Legendarium in the last 40 years. The author has managed to build out Tolkien’s world (especially The Shire) and made it come to life while staying true to the source material and the spirit of Tolkien in a way I never thought possible.
d20 is still my favourite system because almost everything has a d20 version. Star Wars, Paranoia, Warcraft, LoTR, Call of Cthulhu, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc... had official d20 releases. On top of that you can find unofficial d20 rules exist for Naruto, Bleach, Doctor Who, Discworld, or almost any IP you can imagine. I'm so glad Paizo kept d20 alive and Pathfinder is still my go-to ruleset no matter what I'm building.
I had to run a test game of Pathfinder to get one of my players who was skeptical about changing systems to sign off on it. It's a great system but I needed to make sure that the way I run it and the way that she plays are compatible before I could commit to switching this group to a new system.
I've run Edge of Darkness for three mainly dnd players, and I gotta say, I find COC so much easier to get into and also for the group to rp. There's no reliance on special skills or magic as the only signifying character trait. They had so much interaction it was amazing to watch. Also I felt the flow was much better, where dnd comes to a big halt when combat rolls around.
Pippin failing to catch the apple rapidly advancing toward his head is definitely another nat 1 🤣
Hahah yeah, got another comment saying "everything pippin does" xD
@@BobWorldBuilder Poor lad can´t get a break. Should have just played Pathfinder smh
I went from DnD to Pathfinder, burned out on GMing, explored a variety of other games, and ended up primarily running Fate while sprinkling in other games based on what they have to offer.
Having a "home game" that you and your party are comfortable with is very valuable, especially if the game is generalist enough to meet most of your needs through homebrew. But exploring other, more specialist systems occasionally is a great way to get new ideas and avoid getting stuck in a rut!
I like the notion that Frodo could have rolled a nat 1 when he tried to catch the one ring while lying on the floor of the Prancing Pony. Instead of catching it in his hand, the ring slipped on his outstretched finger and made him vanish, bringing heaps of unwanted attention to him and his fellow hobbits as well as hasten the black riders closer! That's so much more flavorful than simply, depicting "Oh no! He failed miserably and the ring of power rolls across the busy floor."
No one can't. Sometimes a genre change should involve a rule set change. D20 outside of fantasy is awful. I played D20 Star Wars and it just felt like playing D&D with differently name D&D classes. Note my group opted to stay with D&D 3.5 after trying out 5th edition.
Just play Pathfinder 2e.
Now let me elaborate. I am not just some troll trying to annoy loyal 5e players. The defficiencies of 5e are well known and almost unanimously acknowladged.
Just imagine it is an issue about a different type of product, let's say a car.
One car barely holds together. It is missing a lot of essential parts (rules for downtime for example) and you have to invent your own parts and glue them together with existing parts. Some of the parts are disfunctional (for example boring combat thanks to every monster having an attack of opportunity) and have to be tampered with. You are constantly fixing leaks with your own duct tape and you hope you will get a couple of extra miles from this failing car.
Or you can have another car that has all the right parts at right places. And if some of the parts feel to complicated you can just ignore them and the car still works just fine. And also the new car without missing parts and leaks and duct tape fixex is completely free.
And now you have the OGL fiasco as a cherry on top.
For me it's a no brainer.
After years of homebrewing D&D, I finally realized there are SO many other games out there, many of which capture the tone and fit mechanics to it better, or are specialized ways of "doing the Thing" that are better suited to that particular Thing, than D&D. For D&D-ish games I like Deathbringer and Black Sword Hack; otherwise Cairn, Cephus Quantum Starfarer or other lite or genre-suited systems.
I confess this video wasn’t what I was expecting. I was expecting more details on comparing how TOR and the 5eLotR systems utilise mechanics to showcase the theme. Maybe examples of TOR over complicating some sections or 5e not being capable of carrying certain themes. Would you be interested in doing a more in depth comparison in the future? I feel like it’s be very helpful for this who are homebrewing to get a better understanding of what could be (and not) in the scope for homebrew and what it’s limitations might be.
Pathfinder is an amazing product of detailed minutiae designed to make combat feel like a board game rather than a role-playing game.
That level of complexity and number crunching, I'm sure, will be attractive to some players but not me.
I GM a Pathfinder game and am switching over to 13th Age.
What was the deciding factor? I took a PC from our home brew and rewrote it to fit Pathfinder rules. It was a 3rd level Rogue and the online character sheet had an option to print out all of the feats and skills for handy reference.
It was 31 pages. 31 PAGES!
For a player completely new to RPGs I think Pathfinder is a mistake. For seasoned veterans looking for number crunching, then it's for you.
Well, TTRPGs are social games. They require not just you, but several other players to agree to play. This isn't 1982, were kids could have the entire summer off and no video games and Internet to deal with. Any game you run in 2023 typically requires that you group find time to learn it, agree to the setting, commit time (typically weekly sessions for months), etc. to this. So, most folks are lucky if they can get any game going. There are certainly big advantages in those cases of picking a game system and setting most of your players know, generally like, etc. vs. some system which people don't know what they are getting, if it will be fun, if it's worth a learning curve, or one or more folks don't want to try. This is doubly true if you are recruiting new players or (gasp) a DM.
We have a solid group, but even we typically only try a new RPGA between D&D campaigns. Honestly, it only takes one player who isn't keen on a new system and well... it's better to play what people all generally like than try to force even one player who doesn't like something into playing it.
This goes with homebrew to a lesser extent. More changes, rules, unpublished settings, etc. you use... typically the less consensus you have with three, four, or more other players.
The trick is not to ask people to join a campaign in a new system, but just a single session. Surely most groups can swing that, and everyone can at least get a feel for if they'll like the system enough to continue. As a plus, some system have all the rules avaialble for free online, so no monetary investment is needed to get a taste. Letting a single person, especially if they are not the GM, dictate what the group plays, is silly to me - like letting one picky friend always decide where you eat. Why would someone willingly do that? If one must, then play the new system during a session when that curmudgeon isn't available.
All true. And I agree with the other reply here, that just running those one shots or mini campaigns between long stretches of the group's preferred game is totally fine.
@@xczechr We are still talking people (typically friends) and they are often funny.
1. Times between campaigns are rare. Maybe once every on or two years.
2. I don't like the restaurant analogy. Pressuring someone to do something they don't like for hours isn't something I (or most people) like to do. You are then imparting friendships into it. What if the player says "No thanks, I'd rather stay at home and do X."
3. Times between campaigns are often better for 'down time'. There can be lots of other things which don't require as much learning, effort, etc. which you could also do which everyone likes. For example, we often play card or board games. So it isn't necessarily new 5e campaign or new X system, but a dozen other things we could also do.
4. All this is far more of an issue if you are recruiting a new group. It's easy on a forum, comic shop, gaming club, etc. to put the word out for a 5e campaign. It's harder for a new system.
5. Many systems are going to deserve a longer trial than one session. That's isn't much time. It took us almost ten sessions before we gave up on 4e. We did DragonAge for months and liked it (and that was a simplistic system to learn). Even a simply game requires a few sessions to get used to the rules, learn from mistakes, and give it a try. Even for a one-shot, that would require the players to read, learn, etc. between sessions.
6. If other people enjoy it, but one doesn't, do you continue? I've had folks in our group reluctantly agree to try something, we enjoyed it, but several sessions in we had a meeting and decided to end it because one player didn't. So, there is a valid thought process not to start something if someone is already against it at the start.
I'm not saying people shouldn't, I'm just saying a lot of people don't. IMO, social issues are far bigger issues on trying something new vs. something you know works, vs. specific issues with rules, systems, settings, etc.
That said, besides suggesting trying something new between campaigns, I'd also suggest that someone other than the DM suggest it and agree to run it. This often gets the DM onboard (as they get to be a player for once) and doesn't come across as the DM using their 'veto' in suggesting the game.
The thing is I get both ends of this discussion, because there are good reasons for either modding a system you like or picking up a different system.
Personally I think it's down to effort.
If you just want to diverge in your campaign for a session or a single adventure into something else, or if you just want to have a one-shot to have a change of pace, then the mod/homebrew is definitely fitting.
If you want to use 5e for a campaign where a group of Anne Rice type vampires have to navigate monstrous societies in modern day cities though, I believe that you will have an easier time with a more suitable tone in the rules if you just pick up Vampire: The Masquerade.
Because it doesn't matter that much if something is unbalanced if it's only present for a single episode, or for a mini adventure, but making something work in the long run, potentially with a whole heap of other changes on top becomes increasingly difficult. So depending on the changes and the circumstances there are good reasons for one suggestion or another.
Of course there are also bad reasons for either.
Oh and as for the fumble having been rolled... Gimli in the elven forest comes to mind... also, if filming examples count: Viggo Mortensen breaking his toe on a helmet he kicked would totally qualify.
For me mechanics very much contribute to the feel of a system. Sure you could add girtty survival and sanity mechanivs to 5e and play a cult based pyscholgical horror game, but the mechanics of Call of Cthulu are built to evoke the feelings and expirences that compliment that kind of game.
Im all for "oh well this doesnt exist in the system we are playing and to make it more fun im adding it" however I'll also vocally advocate to try new systems. Ive tried 5 in the past year alone that I love and have added to my repertoire. Learning *most* new systems doesnt feel (to me) as hard as people make it out to me, but everything is different for everyone. But some games just do their *thing* elegantly and really its hard to replicate that by just bolting on whatever mechanics you want to try to another system
I mean, homebrewing goes all the way back to origins of D&D and RPGs themselves, so there's nothing wrong in making new mechanics and similar stuff for our home campaigns. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try other systems from time to time: it is always good to have fresh and different perspectives, leaving our comfort zone.
Like yourself, I'm also a fan of low-level 5E adventures, capping PC progrression at level 6 in my campaigns. We use DCC random tables for making magic and other things unpredictable and lethal, but also fun to run. Those themes and tone of pulp fantasy are what my gaming group of "neo-grognards" likes the most, and we can achieve them mainly by homebrewing ideias from other great systems we tried before. Balance is everything (except combat balance, which is an illusion).
I would try them both. I am always up for trying a new TTRPG system.
I too have a LotR 5e game, but I am not sure if it is the same game you're speaking of or not. I'll send you a picture!