Absolutely Terrible MTG Cheater
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 เม.ย. 2023
- Also, stop excusing "mana weaving" - that is also cheating you nerds.
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This is why you cut and shuffle a deck. If they don't present the deck to you for cuts you get a judge if they refuse to let you cut the deck
I think cutting needs to be required, but there have been opponent shuffle cheats in the past where they’ve stacked lands or bad cards to the top
Called a judge on a certain pro and hall of famer for damaging my cards with a riffle shuffle... just be careful
Your opponent can shuffle cheat upon cutting too.
You're also allowed to full shuffle your opponent
Always cut your opponent. I prefer to shuffle as a cut, which is 100% legal.
I played Reid Duke in a fun match (not competitive) at GP and he did the same routine he does during a pro match. Watch him in a tournament and he looks fully away when shuffling, shuffles his opponents deck and looks completely the opposite direction and was very clearly conscious of any glancing or shuffling benefit he might get. It's awesome to know that he and many other pros perfectly show how to respect the game and act properly.
That's the same thing I do and I picked it up from players like him and LSV. If you aren't trying to cheat you feel really bad about any potential unfair information much less doing any ridiculous shuffling techniques.
Yeah, he did a little video on how to shuffle up properly where he goes through every step in detail
That's how I was taught at my LGS. One of the Judges used Reid as an example
I do the same exact thing I've always done that ever since I started playing magic bout 20 years ago... Always look as far away from the deck as possible when shuffling... I love the game to much to ever even want to think about cheating... Fair games r the most entertaining win or lose. Cheaters in the game should get a perm ban no exceptions.
I taught myself to shuffle without looking because of watching reid do that on camera in tournament
Shuffle cheating is as old as card games themselves, but this is the most blatant example I've seen. He's practically shuffling the deck face up.
I KNOW RIGHT? SO BLATANTLY CHEATING, IM EMBARRASSED!
at this point, can they not just get a card shuffling tech at these events?
@mikepower8999 i am not sure about newer card shufflere, but old machines tends to damage cards little by little, and is not great with sleeves.
Reminder that it's perfectly fine to call a judge and just ask if they can watch your opponent while they shuffle. This usually scares the cheating right out of them.
Cut the deck three times just to be sure
@@joelhaggis5054 rules as written states that when offered a cut, you can fully shuffel their deck.
It's probably better to quietly ask someone to watch them. Don't be overt, make sure they get caught.
In reality, that's as close as saying "I think my opponent is cheating" so, don't bother with the veiled attempt at subterfuge, just tell the judge "I think my opponent is cheating".
Just shuffle their deck
At higher levels IT IS REQUIRED
That is the most egregious cheating I have ever, ever witnessed. Who even shuffles face up and manipulates cards individually while doing so?
For real if this guy needs to set their top 10 cards to win a game they must be one of the worst magic players in existence. crazy part is he could have gotten away with cheating one back breaking sideboard card into his hand and he does this.
What is funny is that if the other player cuts their deck it would make all of that cheating worthless.
This is game 2 of a casual event, the opponent probably declined to cut in the first game and let him know that cheating in the 2nd was ok.
He drew before even asking if his opponent wanted to cut. 😂 got what he deserved
It should be in the rules that you are required to cut
@@thanhavictus I believe in the rules you have to offer your deck to be cut by your opponent, which didn't look like that happened here.
@@thanhavictus The rules give the players the option to completely shuffle the opponents decks as long as they don't take an excessive amount of time.
The fact that this person is an L2 judge and still did this is appalling.
yep should have called him out harder for that reason and he should never be allowed to be a judge for any event ever again.
Simply being a judge doesn't make them a paragon of fairness and justice. The certification interviews aren't really conducted by trained psychologists who could identify these things, it's easy to just pretend to be a normal person.
Just so people have an idea of how many shuffles needed to sufficiently randomize a deck, the standard 52 card deck used for games like Poker needs 7 riffle shuffles to be considered sufficiently randomized (mashing is effectively the same for sleeved cards). For a 60 card Magic deck, you should do around 7-8, and a 100 card deck should be around 8-9. If done well, after these amounts of shuffles, there shouldn't be any clumping from the previous game. A couple more than these can technically make things more random, but it's not really noticeable.
the "If done well" is the part that ruins me
@lietz13 exactly, no one is riffle shuffling a commander deck and most people wouldn't dream of doing that to their mtg cards in general. I would like to know how random the typical mtg shuffles their decks. It especially gets more apparent in commander where you tend to ramp out a lot more lands and I do have serious doubts about the ability to thoroughly shuffle a pile of 20+ lands from the bottom of a deck to a random distribution throughout the deck.
@@Thunderkeg I've got big enough hands to mash shuffle a 100 card deck well. I can even riffle shuffle 2 playing card decks for Canasta (108 cards; jokers included), though it is a little stiff.
If you are shuffling well, then your cards are getting split into lots of groups of 1-3 cards each time, so that group of 20+ you are worried about turns into roughly half as many groups of 1-3 cards separated by similar groups of other cards from your deck, and they quickly get separated further and further from there.
If you are having trouble mashing 100 cards, an alternative method I can suggest is splitting the entire deck into 2-3 piles (they don't need to be equal amounts), and shuffling those 2-3 times each.
Then, take roughly half off of each of them and put them on piles they didn't come from (for example, half of pile 1 goes to pile 2, half of pile 2 goes to pile 3, half of pile 3 goes to pile 1; this is to imitate the separation of cards that would normally happen), and then shuffling the newly made piles 2-3 times. Repeat this process 1-2 more times, then shuffle them all together 1-2 times. It's not perfect, and it will take a little longer, but it is far easier to manage and will randomize things reasonably well.
at this point, can they not just get a card shuffling tech at these events?
@@mikepower8999 In order to shuffle the cards well, card shuffling machines end up being kind of rough and can damage the cards. It's fine for playing cards since they are cheaply replaceable, but not so good for collectible cards that can end up being quite expensive.
I am a teacher and amateur magician, and I like to teach my students tricks. This guy looks like when one of my 8 year old students tries their first card control a minute after I showed them lmao
"Randomized does not mean uniformly distributed."
For clarity's sake, Randomization will approach uniform distribution as instances of randomization increase, but any given instance is not guaranteed to be uniform.
Did I just get actually-ed?
@@ProtagonistOfficial Because more clarity is always good, in that case how many times you shuffle your deck during a tournament will be all of your instances, and your starting hand every game is a single instance, so if you count the distribution/mana correlation from every hand in the tournament, it will be balanced, but not necessarily every hand
@@xaropevic7918 because even more clarity is better, the hand isn't the single instance, it's the deck after a true randomization. The hand is just the cards you see first. So in reality in a 9 round tournament, with no mulligans and each match goes to 3 rounds you get 27 instances.
@@ProtagonistOfficialsuppose I stack my deck by mana weaving. When I shuffle, the deck will trend away from uniformity.
Bro HOW does he look so bad at it. Like, if I ever wanted to cheat, I'd at least make damn sure that I'm good at it before doing it ON CAMERA.
Yea, it's funny I am not angry about how badly he is cheating than him actually cheating.
At the last pre release I went to I remember having to tell someone they couldn't mana weave between games and they're responce was "why I don't want to draw to many lands or not enough" and while I understood why they did it still unfortunately not allowed.
This is something I do by accident. I often sort and look through my deck (I *LOVE* MTG art) if I end up getting stuck with a bye round, So my lands get clumped and sorted.
in between games I just pick up all the cards from my play field and graveyard into one pile, then I take all my lands in another pile, and I mash shuffle them together. then I take that stack and mash shuffle it into the rest of my library and then continue shuffling as normal. Would you consider that cheating? I'm trying to understand where people draw the line here because I don't care if people mana weave as long as they sufficiently shuffle their deck afterward.
@@xerowolf4242 if you shuffle your deck enough it doesn't matter if you mana weave, the cards should be randomized. So you're either doing an action which has no benefit or only benefits you if you semi-cheat by not shuffling properly
@@Thechosenchicken But it makes some people feel better. if you do a 'perfect mana weave' and then shuffle, you may shuffle your mana into clumps.
That’s hilarious, this is my local lgs. I need to head in to talk to the guys about this.
The number of people who think Manaweaving isn't cheating is huge and confusing. In smaller cardgames I've played it's even been the people in charge of tournament rules. They're always baffled when confronted.
Yea, just do it at home when you put your deck together and no one cares.
@@Locohappy if I can mash shuffle your deck a few times afterwards and you feel bad and feel the negative benefit, then you probably know internally that you are in fact cheating
well most of them think that weaving and then shuffling is fine. but the problem is that if you believe that helps, you aren't shuffling well.
Used to go to a local place that would try to enforce a rule that you could only do a simple cut on your opponents deck to try to save time, they eventually lost their ability to hold DCI sanctioned tournaments due to their absolute refusal to comply with the rules. Same place would always try to enforce their own custom ban list in sanctioned play, often banning cards that weren't even meta purely because one particular player won with it the week previously, or because it was countering the local net-deck meta. It really sucked, especially since it was essentially the only option locally to play in tournaments at the time, the other local place never had enough people to have tournaments and the owner would routinely fill a roster with accounts she had made using her family members names so she could fake having enough players to continue receiving promo materials which she would keep.
Is it still cheating if you proper shuffle afterwards? Because most times after a game, my lands are clumped together
most music shuffle algorithms aren't actually random, like if the same song comes up twice in a row humans don't think that's random so most shuffle algorithms are tuned to be what humans think is random rather than being truly random
My best Spotify "randomizer" incident wasn't 2 songs by the same artist, but rather in a 1200+ song listing I got Robert Palmer's Addicted to Love followed immediately by Weird Al's Addicted to Spuds.
i once had a 1000+ song playlist on shuffle and repeat all finish and start over on the same song. i've never recovered
I think that the audio waves are compared to each other to try to match for flow, I don't know if thats how it works or not but it's not actually really random, there is programming and a method to what the order of playback becomes.
@@jeffe2267 those that would include duplicates would be closer to true random then?
There's something philosophically valuable here.
Why does random mean as much as it does for humans?
@@hamsandwich6685 - a programmer friend explained it to me a long time ago that there was no such thing as "random" to a computer. It's always based on some current value deep in the system or something like that.
@@DerekScottBland in computers, true random does not exist.
With the human mind, I am confident something closer to true randomness is more possible.
Though it can be argued, that on sub conscience levels, the mind may still be applying subtle patterns.
A lot of people put cards on top when they fetch and then pretend to shuffle while keeping the top unchanged. Very common cheat, and that's why you should always cut or even shuffle after someone fetches
Great Video just one thing, as Judges we do not call it Pile 'Shuffle' we call it Pile Counting, because as you mentioned this is not truly randomizing.
That's a great point! Thank you! Will include that in the inevitable follow up.
You give it 7 riffles after you do piles. It's just peace of mind
I always wondered how random/non-random a deck would be after a facedown pile shuffle… I’m not trying to discredit that it’s not a proper shuffle, but just more curious about the actual numbers behind it.
I always remember a little anecdote I heard one time (sadly can't remember exactly where):
If your conventional shuffling after you pile shuffled or manawove is sufficient to randomise your deck, then said manaweaving accomplishes nothing except wasting time. & if you're not sufficiently randomising your deck afterwards then you're cheating.
Though on the subject of shuffle cheating we did have a player at our fnm who many suspected of doing this. What we suspected was that they were moving cards around during sideboarding time to get as even of a distribution as possible of everything, & then shuffling in such a way as to minimally disrupt this distribution. This survived being cut, because whatever chunk of deck they started with was pretty much the same as any other chunk of deck.
Unsurprisingly they usually enjoyed very smooth draws & a lot of victories.
Now, no-one ever tried to go after them.... it's the lgs & nobody wants drama in the community. Plus, not the easiest thing to prove; and no-one who suspected it could actually prove it.
So what some of us did was upgrade him from "cut at fnm" to "always shuffle". (Gotta admit; the vast majority of opponents at fnm... just cutting the deck is enough for that level of play (for me at least))
Anyway, his win % dropped precipitously after we started shuffling his deck on the regular. Funny that.
Moral of the story: always cut your opponents deck. If you're playing anything higher than fnm (or you expect shenanigans) always shuffle it.
'If your conventional shuffling after you pile shuffled or manawove is sufficient to randomise your deck, then said manaweaving accomplishes nothing except wasting time. & if you're not sufficiently randomising your deck afterwards then you're cheating.'
The same could be said of not manaweaving, it's just your 'cheating' would be disadvantaging yourself most of the time (deck dependent). I'm sure some people could give examples of fringe mtg decks were picking up the lands and nonlands and just slapping them on top of the deck and shuffling would actually bring an advantage for a particular deck gameplan.
My goodness, he is just not caring about who sees what he is doing.
Vince didn't even need to say anything, holy shit that was some blatant stacking there.
The Logical Rule of Mana Weaving : If Mana Weaving is making your draws better, you're not shuffling properly or enough.
*Nobody* should see the contents of any deck in the process of shuffling.
Preferably, always shuffle the opponent's deck. At minimum, cut the deck. Anyone that gets upset at you for it shouldn't be trusted. If they randomized properly, it should affect nothing.
I believe it is minimum 7 shuffles to properly randomize a deck. Accept no less.
As an aside : If you need to prove a point to someone mana weaving, 3 pile count their deck. Anyone doing 2 spells, 1 land weaving will get 2 neat piles of spells and 1 pile of land stacked like a sandwich. They are guaranteed to get 7 spells or 7 lands. I've gotten more than one person to quit weaving doing this.
The rule of minimum 7 shuffles to achieve proper randomization is from the profession of prestidigitation.
It's a magician's code type of thing
" If you need to prove a point to someone mana weaving, 3 pile count their deck. Anyone doing 2 spells, 1 land weaving will get 2 neat piles of spells and 1 pile of land stacked like a sandwich. They are guaranteed to get 7 spells or 7 lands. I've gotten more than one person to quit weaving doing this."
Please do not do this, just call a judge. Doing this and proceeding into the game is Manipulation of Game Materials and makes you a cheater as well.
If you suspect someone is cheating, don't try to counter their cheating. Just call a Judge and explain what you observed.
@@hamsandwich6685 I've seen at least one paper (from the 90's, admittedly) suggesting that 7 shuffles is about the minimum needed for close to proper randomization based on mathematic principles, I don't think it's all down to magician practices.
@@noesunyoutuber7680 fair enough.
Seems likely they knew that as well and why it became the industry standard.
People keep forgetting the "7 shuffles" thing is for **perfect** shuffles, and for a 52 card deck.
Never trust someone who doesn’t cut your deck
I pretty much only play at local card shop events, and I never cut my opponents deck simply to speed up play. It lets me stay focused on what I am doing as this usually is a limited format of a set I am not overly familiar with. The stakes are so low, that playing more magic without running into the time limit is a bigger priority to me.
I just don't want to touch their cards...
Locally I try randomize whether I cut or not so it’s impossible to expect
@@grantharriman284 You should at least cut the deck. It takes literally two seconds. I sincerely doubt that's putting that much strain on the clock.
@@omegaxtrigun It's mostly about keeping my attention on what I am doing with my deck that I have literally built minutes before when they search their library as part of a chain of actions. I am more concerned with not missing my ability triggers or otherwise goofing up how my deck is supposed to work than with whether someone is cheating in a virtually zero stakes event.
I once talked to a guy who said it should be okay to mana weave and then shuffle afterwards so that he wouldn't be cheating. I explained to him that shuffling afterwards so as to not count as cheating would randomize the deck and undo his attempt to avoid mana flood or mana drought. But that dude just couldn't get it.
The thing is that is wrong, while yes if you truly shuffle it perfectly that's right, no one is changing the placement of every card in the deck order relative to it's neighbors, when you shuffle a deck and let's say you split the deck at a random points like you should and place them in the middle, if you picked up your lands and at the end of the game and put them in the deck together without shuffling your other played cards in, that means your Goin to have clumps of lands and cards you played last game together you can change the likelihood of it by shuffling well and being random, but people aren't good at random, if someone picks a random number or shuffles a deck randomly they have a tendency to do it the same way, and that means why you shuffle a deck 4 times your using a similar pattern and that will affect the randomized order of cards
When I was a new player, I remember guys at my shop telling me mana weaving was legal and fair. Imagine having to cheat to beat a new player to feel good about yourself
This happened to me. Wondered why I kept losing every time
I’ve got a friend who manaweaves before shuffling every time. I try and explain to him that it doesn’t matter if he’s shuffling afterwards and letting his opponent ahuffle and cut but he doesn’t care. I mean, I don’t care about it because I get to shuffle it and I know it’s not stacked but it still grinds my gears that he won’t accept that he doesn’t need to manaweave.
I think this does matter. here's why. I used to mana weave before shuffling every time and back then, I would get mana screwed like 80% of the time. Always a mix of flooded and dry. But since I've stopped, I only get mana screwed about 20%-30% now. If by any chance your friend is constantly getting mana screwed as well, show him this comment and maybe he'll stop. It worked for me.
Cheaters can be such goobers. I remember watching a match at a FNM during Zendikar standard between Mono Black and UW Control. This was back when everyone was playing Baneslayer in their deck as a finisher. The Mono B player gets stomped G 1 and me and a few others watch him badly sneak a card from outside the game to his hand for G2. G2 rolls around, the UW player taps out for a Baneslayer and the guy brings in his big smoking gun that he cheated into his hand, Halo Hunter. A 2BBB Demon that ETBs Destroy target angel. He windmill slams it down to only realize that Baneslayer has Prot from Demons, rendering his cheat completely pointless. The look on the guys face when he realized this was priceless. He loses G2 and proceeds to never come back to the LGS for FNM.
Mana weaving:
Recent new players only learned MTG from Commander teaches bad habits, like this. My LGS had to crack down on it. Issuing game warnings and etc.
First time I've heard that pile shuffling without looking at your cards is cheating. Pretty much everyone against whom I have played has done this for at least a couple decades.
It is against the rules as it isn't considered to be sufficient randomisation, you are allowed to do it if you then shuffle regularly afterwards. This means that the "shuffling" part of pile shuffling is irrelevant, it really is only done to count your cards
@@katiequeen7225 Oh yeah, definitely cards shuffled afterwards, I must have missed that part if mentioned. I was under impression that pile shuffling followed by additional deck shuffling was considered cheating.
Pile shuffling isn’t a shuffle. Its a repeated non random pattern. So hypothetically, if you know the order of your entire deck before, you should be able to decipher the order after a pile shuffle. Nothing is random about placing one card at a time into pre determined piles
@@damiend.7392 The only other thing to watch out for is that pile 'shuffling' too often is considered slow play.
I think the limit is once per game. I'm not certain though.
I've also never heard this considered cheating, nearly half the players I've faced either casually at home or at LGS pile shuffle and I've never seen anyone complain about it. I don't personally find it very effecient but I don't have a problem with it either, and I certainly wouldn't call it cheating especially if I'm just going to shuffle and cut my opponents deck immediately after anyway.
Can we just mention the playmat on the right? He's just casually reminding every opponent at all times that they can just concede and get it over with. That's such a chad move.
This was at my LGS and Im hearing about it from this video. Shows how much I pay attention to non commander things lol.
I totally get why people don’t do this, but I bridge shuffle my cards. It means my cards are always face down and out of my sight and it is a very good way to properly randomize my cards, and if you do it correctly you don’t damage your cards either. Naturally, when I cut my opponent’s deck I don’t bridge shuffle theirs because I know some people hate that, but I do a good two or three mash shuffles and call it good.
Fun story I like to tell, I played in a somewhat casual legacy event in New Jersey. I had a deck that I had spent WAY too much money on that was just a pet deck for me, UB Landstill. I had judge promo FoWs, foil worldwake Jace the Mjnd Sculptors, foil Onslaught Polluted Deltas signed by Rob Alexander, the works. At the time (2018) the deck was probably $16,000. No one at the store I played at really knew me because I wasn’t a regular, so when I started bridge shuffling the deck, I had people all over the store just cringing like it was causing them physical pain. It was great.
You sir are a monster and I applaud you.
to riffle shuffle/bridge shuffle without causing damage to the cards actually takes skill. A skill which most people don't have. So I understand why people hate seeing it/having it done to their deck. They just don't realize that it can be perfectly fine if done correctly and gently.
@@xerowolf4242 Oh absolutely, it took a lot of practice to do it. It was especially difficult learning how to do it with sleeves without splitting them.
The fact that this was a Judge of any kind is disgusting. I'd say he should be ashamed, but clearly he wasn't above cheating at FNM, so I doubt he would.
I like shuffling all the cards from the previous game first, then do the mix with the rest of the deck. Mentally, it lets me believe the lands won't all be stuck together for next time. Minimum time to get around the hangup.
I also can't get over how much those sleeved cards being pile 'shuffled' look like cheese slices.
That's because they were cheese slices. Look closer.
@@PleasantKenobi i went back and looked....:(
I remember one GP I was at I was watching the feature match area. one of the players was a previous opponent of mine, so was checking the game out. it was after sideboarding and I noticed that the player was accidently not changing his bottom card while shuffling. I'm pretty sure it was accidental because he was never looking down and talking to the opponent and the deck faced away from him, but one of the judges watching noticed too. I saw the judge stare watching his shuffling until he moved the bottom card in the last few shuffles. pretty sure he nearly got called for that.
I just pile shuffle because I'm bad at mashing, so I do a quick pile first. But I also only play commander, where the 100 card double sleeved deck is a pain in the ass to manipulate.
Shuffle 50 and 50, then mash those two together, then again.
I make a point for people who mana weave against me when they present cuts i simply just undo it. they learn to stop that real quick. ive had people call judges over to get themselves dqued after complaining bout the way i cut
edit: it is also pretty common at prereleases so look out
How do you un do it
@@possiblemonkey8915 most decks are around 1/3rd mana sources so a true mana weave is 2 spells and 1 land repeated. To "undo" this you pile shuffle creating 3 piles, 2 of those piles will be all or mostly spells and 1 pile will be all or mostly mana sources. Once you put those 3 piles together they will have either all mana sources or none. It's a reverse cheat and is actually still a cheat so I would only do this if its someone who is doing these things in a casual setting because otherwise you should call a judge/owner to report the cheating.
@@xwlfx315x Why is it a cheat? if we assume the opponent shuffled his deck you can cut it whatever way you want and it will still be randomized, as long as you don't look at the carts there is no problem.
I like to pile shuffle to break up clumps then do a normal shuffle afterwards. do you feel this is not sufficient randmization. I dont pay attention ot whats in the piles i just pick an odd number of stacks 5 or 7 usually. a normal shuffle (mash) afterwards should be sufficent to randomize. The main reason for this is my deck will often stack compunding cards together for clarity and sleeves tend to stick together. What are your thoughts?
That’s why I mash shuffle, pile shuffle in a weird and random order and NOT in equal piles, then mash shuffle THOSE piles into each other and finally a full mash shuffle of the entire deck. I find that this method, though time consuming, works the best. Idk if I’d do it at a tournament unless the rounds over and I’m prepping for the next round but I digress
I didn't even know people do pile shuffling in a non-random order and with equal piles. Doing it randomly breaks up the clumps from previous rounds just as well and also actually randomises your cards. Tbh, I have a hard time figuring out what the right way to shuffle is between games in a best of 3 and hope every time that it is sufficient while not waisting too much time.
When i was a child i was playing in a super low stakes game at my lgs. My oponent started to mana weave the shit out of his deck, like 1 Land - 2 Cards - 1 Land - repeat. Than he didnt shuffle if but gave it to me for cutting. So i looked him in the eyes and cut his deck 1 Card on this pile - 2 Cards on this pile - 1 card on this pile. He didnt draw any lands this game and was fuming, didnt even feel bad about it.
Anything above a friendly game with no stakes, I am absolutely cutting my opponent's deck at minimum. For bigger tournaments, I'm shuffling their deck. Just a good habit. It's not rude, it's part of the rules, don't feel bad about doing it.
Hey Kenobi! Great content as always. I recon it would be good for you to explain for new people WHY weaving isn't innocuous so people don't see it as a nitpick, when its actually about fair play. I think new people see weaving as not an advantage but a way to have a smoother experience without appreciating that weaving is advantageous to some archetypes more than others and it effects deck building criteria and the power of cards. If a certain count of land were assumed in every opening and draw there after, every meta in every format would be very different. The new unbanning with preordain and inclusion of the LOTR land cyclers is a great example of what happens to a deck and meta when your opening land count and land draws there after is effected. Thanks again for the content.
I am curious how people can "see this as not an advantage but a way to have a smoother experience". How can it not be an advantage if you ensure smoother draws? It all just sounds like cognitive dissonance to me.
In nearly all circumstances, mana weaving should be avoided. The only time I would say it's acceptable is in a casual setting where you discuss it with your playgroup and everyone has agreed that mana weaving is allowed at that specific table. That of course applies to any rule, but I can see it being a house rule people want to adopt for fun, and I do think there's room for that in the game, just not in official rulesets.
Which is why as the opponent you should ALWAYS shuffle/cut your opponent's deck, even when playing for fun or casual games to keep people from taking advantage and manipulating their deck every game.
I pileshuffel to unclumb my deck. But not often and immidiately after i do a very chaotic fast shuffle and insist my opponant cuts the deck. Chaotic as in multiple shuffles techniques in no particular order.
I have no clue where stuff in my deck is at that point and if my opponant doesnt believe me they can cut as wild as they feel like.
One time at GP, OP called judge on me cheating. I random pile shuffle (placing cards in random piles instead of just clockwise or whatever), and count quietly 1-6 10 times to make sure I have 60 card deck. OP thought it was fishy and called judge … “he’s cheating I don’t know how but he’s shuffling weird” =_______= the kicker, his shuffle on my deck was extremely long and suspicious but couldn’t find any problem, but I always cut the deck of of precaution. Later, happened to see him at top table nearby. His OP Minds Desire for 10+ and bricked, and standing behind I can clearly see he is cheating. Quietly called judge to walk over and observe, G3 his OP Mind’s Desired for 5 and bricked, but had enough off the free spell to get mana to play a second MD for 9 and bricked again. Judge walked over and DQ’d Villain. Great feeling! Guy must’ve spent hours practicing to perform it to a point where I was looking for it and couldn’t spot it when sitting opposite him.
So what about this scenario, we had a long match I had 15 out of 23 lands lands out by the time the game ended. I scoop the lands and toss some in the front, some in the middle and some on top. I then proceed to power shuffle. Is that considered mana weaving?
I have a guy that shuffle cheats at our locals in casual commander games. Me and my friend usually see this and the dude opens the same few combo pieces every single time he plays with us. We don't directly call him out on it because It's funny that he stacks his deck and still somehow ends up last every single time.
yeah we had a guy who would just like draw extra cards all game if he had nothing he really wanted to do coming up. and i mean like a comical amount like would end his turn with 2 cards in hand and at the start would have like 6 or 7 and think we didnt notice (we eventually brought it up and then stopped playing with him when he wouldnt stop)
The thumbnail expression is exactly the same as mine watching this... "shuffle"
This is why I shuffle with the cardbacks up and always ask for my deck to be cut even in casual commander so it hopefully settles worries people might have. Cheating in magic (and in general) just feels ass to do and do to people. Terrible draws make for stories just as much as "Oh yeah I had the perfect hand bro" which you know isn't cool because you cheated for it so its not cool.
Quick question: what is the best way to quickly shuffle up the cards you played last game into your deck for next game? Often after shuffling I will end up in a patch of my deck that is near identical to the cards I had in play last game. Obviously this means I'm not shuffling well enough, so what can I do differently to make sure my cards are truly randomized? Usually, I will mash-shuffle 5-10 times. I have been avoiding riffling for draft because I know it can damage cards if done improperly, but it's a non-option for commander games, so there has to be a better way.
For commander games, if your hands are too small to handle your entire deck at once, properly mash shuffle two halves of your deck A & B (50 cards each). Once you shuffled 7-8 times, each of them should be random with their content. Now divide each of your two A & B piles in two, and shuffle A1 pile with B1 (into a pile C), and A2 pile with B2 (into a pile D), 7-8 times each. You now have two new 50 cards piles with fully randomized content, as in there is no way for you to know where any card is located. Then you just need to put pile C on top of pile D and you're good to go.
It should take 7-10 riffle shuffles to randomize an EDH deck, and mashing is mostly the same as riffle shuffling. If you're doing 5, then yeah you just need to shuffle more. If you are shuffling enough, it's possible that the identical patches are just the result of random chance (obvious depends on what the patches are, how long they are and if you're in a singleton format).
@@stoephil I have relatively large hands, but a double-sleeved deck is difficult even for me. The shuffle you described is indeed very effective but also very long, I am looking for something that can be done in less than 30 seconds
@@Aegisworn I'll up it to a minimum 10 times then I guess. Sucks that everytime I fetch a land it extends the game by 30 seconds or more of just waiting, but that's just the way it goes
One small detail I find interesting at the start is how he sideboards. He appears to have laid out the cards he wants to sideboard in, then laid out each card he is sideboarding out next to them, so that he and presumably his opponent and any judges or other observers can easily see that he is removing and adding the same number of cards, ensuring that he still has a 60 card deck.
As a yugioh player, my side deck is the same number of cards every time, and a smaller number than my main deck obviously. So I just make sure to count the side deck one final time before im doing siding.
A pile shuffle at the beginning of a match to verify deck size, riffled at least five times before presenting for cut.
End of game, cards that were drawn are loosely arranged to evenly space lands/nonlands. This is solely to appease minor OCD, and is gently mashed into the remaining deck before sideboarding.
After sideboarding, count sideboard to verify deck size, then back to the 5x+ riffling as the cycle begins anew.
When I was perhaps twelve or thirteen I pile shuffled between games at an FNM. I didn't know any better. My opponent, seeing exactly how I pile shuffled and that I didn't do any other sort of shuffling, proceeded to "cut" my deck by re-pile shuffling my deck, essentially reverting it to the exact order my deck was in after the end of the previous game. Needless to say I mulliganed. Over ten years later, I'm a level 1 judge, and I know now that my opponent wasn't allowed to do that either, but I will tell you this- I never pile shuffled again.
I'm an edh player. I used to pile shuffle after deck construction or having particularly bad mulligans, and always followed with at least some method of rifle shuffling.
Currently what I do is split the deck into thrids and alterate pairs for each rifle shuffle a few times, then rifle shuffle once or twice the whole deck.
I don't play much anymore to have practice shuffling the big deck fully sleeved, so I find this way faster and easier without having to be as concerned with damaging sleeves. I don't know how exactly it mathematically compares to other methods of shuffle for randomization, which I recall finding an actual study whre they determined that ~6-10 rifle shuffles were necessary to achieve depending on deck size.
Interesting take on pile shuffling. I always thought of it as basically a more rote version of mash shuffling. It does break up clumps, but if you're doing that along with packet shuffling then it should be fine if you do it enough. If you scoop, there will be usually huge clumps of lands/creatures, and packet shuffling leaves the clumps in, which isn't random either. You need both (or just doing either of them a bunch of times).
Idk when this started but i think one day when we were tapping or cutting in our casual table (we cut or tap just because its fun and usually someone does something silly we all trust each other) i deceided to cut only the top 3 cards of their deck and jokingly said "ay lets see how good those were" so we revealed the cards and had a giggle , and now thats a staple cut for us is to take only the top couple look at them and put em on bottom. Really added a lot to our groups in terms of getting everyone in a fun mood
Completely agree with the sentiment, but as a newbie player who is often playing casually and a few times in a row, I generally find myself doing a similar move: out of habit, scooping up all my lands on the board into a pile, scooping up the cards on the battlefield and chucking my hand on top, then cards go on land, and back onto the deck. Then I tend to deal a random number of piles, shuffle random pairs of piles together until I can begin mashing two stacks. Shuffle a few times, offer a cut and then proceed. On the one hand I’m intentionally breaking up a lump of cards, but I suppose the main difference between that and the spoken example of pile counting is probably that im trying to lose the signal of my previous hand and board state rather than trying to even things out or create a new signal. Anyway, interesting video as always!
I have to ask, if I separate the cards into lands/spells on the board after a game and shuffle those, then shuffle both that and the deck, is that in the same vein as mana weaving, or is that enough separation from just clumping up(which isn't random depending on the organization of your board state)?
In general, I'm trying to be a better shuffler, I'm only playing Commander casually at present and yet still end up seeing very familiar cards despite shuffling 4-7 times.
If you are mash shuffling, you are just wasting everyone's time. :)
If you’re taking the time between games to sort your cards into piles of lands and spells then yes that is in a similar vein even if you shuffle your cards afterwards and don’t intent to mana weave
it always happens, i have 50 decks and each deck has cards that i tend to see every game no matter how much i shuffle the deck, its just how the 100 card singleton works, you have cards you see alot and cards you nearly never see.
by math, it takes at least 7 shuffles to randomize the location of any one card in your deck. to fully randomize all cards in your deck, it takes at least 13 shuffles, and an odd number of shuffles in general. very few people shuffle enough.
@@madking2 is that still true for a 100 card deck vs a 52 though?
I used to play Yugioh with a guy who would sort his cards into several piles. then pick up the piles and cut the deck in half a few times. Then tell me that "This is what they do at regionals" so when I asked if I could shuffle his deck, he spent the entire match going "Why isn't my deck working"
If someone shuffles face up I call a judge
IIRC the MTG rules allow pile shuffling once per game before the start of the game for the purpose of counting. This was changed a few years ago from it not being allowed at all previously, but I have not played in paper in a long while so it may have been changed again.
Yes but you are still required to shuffle regularly afterwards, if you only pile shuffle you are breaking the rules
Yeah and don't call it pile shuffling because it's not a shuffle, it's just rearranging the cards in the deck in a non-random manner.
@@Tvboy777 Yeah I usually rearrange my deck in a non-random order once per match. And maybe after a particularly long game as well. I find if I don't rearrange my deck in a non-random order once in awhile shuffling doesn't do enough to spread my lands out.
If you're pile shuffling and you've finished putting them in to piles, just mash the piles together instead of picking up each pile.
Most of us do a standard shuffle after to make sure it's as random as possible. This guy seems to think that's cheating tho.
Drawing 7 before your opponent is even done shuffling is absolutely unhinged behavior.
So I totally understand the argument and it is reasonable, I personally do a mix of pile and light mash shuffling because I've had cases where my card sleeves get destroyed from too much mash shuffling so if I have a small amount of time I got pretty quick at doing a few pile shuffles one after the other to randomize the stacks varying how I place cards in the piles to not make them even numbers in some cases. If you're at a tournament or something like that Id say mash shuffling is the fairest way to go but casually ill do a few piles because I'm trying to save money on sleeves not redistribute my cards. But casually we also practice splitting as well since its quick and easy.
12:00 about the pile shuffling, according to tournament rules; it is acceptable as the first and only the first shuffle for a game and it is allowed precisley to count the deck.
This looks more like a comedy skit than actual tournament footage. How is anyone this obvious with cheating unless they're actively trying to get banned?
I thought the Yu-Gi-Oh stream cheater was bad. But this was way too casual. Almost like he was just begging to get caught.
A few years ago I learned the truth behind mana weaving and before then didn't see the harm but quickly learned how it was not fair play. To which I've not played paper magic in a few years now, so seeing that dude blatantly cheating while "shuffling" is why in any organized play I've always did a cut and only would "tap" the opponents if I was playing casual games when my opponent would be interacting with me during the shuffle so I knew they weren't cheating. But seeing this video helped me learn the basis of pile shuffling as a huge no no when I've never really thought about it in the sense that truly randomizing the deck is crucial to getting a true game. And anyone who was a judge and thinks they'd suddenly be trusted, those are the players I trust the least when their time as a judge only helps them know the subtle cheats to give them an edge.
The first playgroup I ran with taught me how to play. I played for probably a year before realizing weaving wasn't legal. In fact the players I played with disturbed all 60 cards in a predetermined order and then lightly shuffled. Kinda like their own rule 0.
I realized in the middle of a match with a stranger at my local gamestore that they were playing by different rules and felt pretty gross about it. (Not that they minded, it was all casual). It could have been worse though, as I did get into competitive shortly after.
Interesting though, is the meta and match ups playing thia way were actually really thoughtful and fun, but the games are more repetitive and match ups are more quickly "solved".
The only time I've ever pile shuffled is when I finish building my deck during a limited event to count and make sure I have 40 cards. In constructed I play Yorion (in Pioneer) and after making sure the deck list is 80 cards before heading to an event, after side boarding to make sure I have to 80 cards I just count my sideboard cards to make sure I have the 14 in the sideboard + Yorion in the companion zone. I don't really get why people count main decks in constructed when as long as you had 60 (or 80 in my case) cards when you started the event then you should just be able to count your sideboard to know that you made the equal number of changes or added extra cards and then having a smaller sideboard.
When I first watched this I though he was just fidgeting around with his deck and I kept wondering what the cheat was and waiting for the shuffle. It finally dawned on me that this WAS his shuffle, which was so monumentally stupid I never would have guessed it was the cheat before he set it down and started drawing up. Remember, if your opponent isn't riffling or mashing with the cards facedown, then they aren't randomizing the deck. You must shuffle it for them and if they don't offer/allow it, don't play the hand.
Pile shuffling to break up suspected clumps from previous games kind of implies that you are already aware that your deck is stacked in a way that could more reliably produce certain cards in succession. I kinda feel like it's valid as long as you shuffle afterwards, I think being terrible at shuffling is a big contributor to clumps.
Clumps are a natural part of sufficient randomisation.
If you need to "shuffle properly" after pile counting your deck, then pile counting admittedly didn't do enough, right?
@@PleasantKenobibro.... Natural. You said it yourself. They literally described unnatural clumps.
I was playing Yu-Gi-Oh one time and I was casually shuffling while waiting for my opponent to finish side boarding. I set my deck down and I guess at the time, cutting the deck wasn't standard practice so I casually was ready to go after waiting. Then he said I never let the top card of the deck get shuffled and tbh, I don't know if he was being honest or not cause I was not paying attention lmfao
i usually pile shuffle once, after building the deck, to make sure I have 60/99. after that, mash it like a pile of potatoes! and i like to mix up my cuts, not that i think anyone at my local game shop is cheating. but the fact that so many people take about the top half and pop it on the bottom makes it pretty tempting to put the good stuff right in the middle and a bit down, so even if the opener isn't perfect, you'll probably have a good early game.
so mash their potatoes too!
Anytime I have extra cards in play like last weekend with Karn or after sideboarding I pile shuffle into 3 piles after mashing quickly twice and going ahead if that first pile has an extra card, it's like a 20 second thing and then mash shuffle like 7 or 8 times after while consciously being obvious about moving the entire bottom stack of cards to the top multiple times in between with the cards facing away from me so I can only see the sleeves. Also do it after deckbuilding to make sure I've got the right number of cards, if none of those things happen though then I'll just mash shuffle sufficiently, there are legitimate reasons to be worried about the number of cards in your deck but beyond that pile shuffling doesn't do anything, provided you don't know the location of any of the cards beforehand it's just a less efficient way to shuffle and the only benefit is the counting. If you are aware of the location of cards in your deck when you start and are attempting to manipulate clumps then that's stacking.
Well thank you, Vince! You learned me something today. I'm apparently a dirty cheater! I do the stack shuffle method sometimes, usually after I've played a handful of games in a row where I got mana fucked. I'd have never thought of it as a cheat before you explained it, but it does make sense. Generally the only other time I do this is at the end of a long gaming session and I do more steps than simply deal out four piles and stack them. I'll deal out 4-5 piles, randomly selecting a pile to deal onto, then mash each pile, then mash each pile together one by one until all the dealt piles as together. It's a lot of steps and probably completely pointless because of all the mashing I'm doing anyway, but in my mind it helps break those clumps from previous games and is ready to be mashed before the next game.
I went to a game local tournament and had someone complain about my cut of their deck. I put the top 5-10 cards on the bottom.
A cut can be just the top card on the bottom. If they want to cry about it then they shouldn't play.
This is the worst cheating effort ever
I mash the cards I used in a game before next with the unseen cards from the game, face down, before then shuffling, and pile shuffle before a match of Bo3 starts. I have had people pull a deck out of a box, and present it to me, at an SCG Invitational without shuffling and that was just weird.
was wondering if i could get advice. if i pile shuffle after a round then normal shuffle so all the land and cards i just played arent clumped together, is that cheating?
i usually pile shuffle, normal shuffle then have a friend shuffle or double cut because my right thumb cant grip well. but of course sometimes for the sake of time they wont cut.
would my shuffles be cheating?
It isn't if you make sure that the order of the cards is completely randomized, so if you've shuffled enough. If you have shuffled enough (I know, the word "enough" is pretty arbitrary) and then present your deck to the opponent, so that they can shuffle/cut your deck, you are fine, and you are not cheating
@@Squirrel_eater thanks so much for the advice, i really appreciate it. was just curious coz i have a missing tendon in my right thumb so i cant really grip that well so i kinda mix shuffles to help r.n.g. but i always ask if anyone want to cut coz its kinda just habbit and at my lgs, if someone doesnt ask me if i want to cut, i make a point of asking "im sorry but may i shuffle and cut ur deck" and i did have one guy say no and i called the shop owner as i found that super sus. (we were playin for prizes) but even if we werent i dont really want some guy taking advantage of people who are new to the game. so me insisting is kind of a silent warning to cheaters that its not gona fly under my radar.
does that make me a bit of a petty player?
@@zamorvex It is your right to make sure that your opponent's deck is randomized. You have a right to cut/shuffle your opponent's deck every single time your opponent shuffles. Your opponent is fetching? You can ask to cut their deck after they are done shuffling. If you play for prizes, always make sure that your opponent's deck is randomized. If you ask somebody if you can cut his deck after they are done shuffling and they decline, you call a judge/tournament organizer. It is not a weird or rude, you are just exercising your rights. If somebody doesn't want you to cut their deck it is extremely suspicious
@@Squirrel_eater thanks, its nice to have confirmation that what im doing isnt rude. as if someone asked me (even if its a casual game) i would understand why. its a good habbit to have in my oppinion as long as you arent being a dick about it haha. i always make sure im being polight and using my manners to show i dont mean any ill will by it and after a completed game i always express my gratitude for their time and learning about a new deck i hadnt thought of before and new ideas. (as u might have guessed i dont like conflict lol but i dont have a problem standing up for myself or others when requiered. when your disabled you kinda have to have a back bone in social enviroments which is even more ironic for me as i have scoliosis haha)
Love the thoralf vs andrea veedeos lol! Always cool to see the pros square off
I have been playing since 1995 and this was common back then. There was one person at our school that cheated so often that we would just cut the top eight card off the top of his deck when we cut before the game.
I do a pile shuffle after each game to make sure my count is right as Vince said. Then do seven to ten mashes to randomize. I'm not good at riffling though, need more practice. It's hard with sleeves.
mash shuffling is just as good as riffling if you have sleeves, but you definitely need to replace your sleeves more often
I had a game once where my opponent asked me if I wanted to cut his deck (it was a while ago but I don't think he cut mine). I declined, and his response was "Fine, I'll cut it then.", which he proceeded to do. Not accusing him of cheating intentionally, but looking back, I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to do that. I believe that after you've shuffled and handed the deck to your opponent to cut or not, regardless of what your opponent does, that's the order the cards are in now.
I've had to call an opponent out for something similar - after I cut, they took their deck back, gave it another quick shuffle, and started dealing out their hand. Could have just been a brainfart, but I asked for and got another cut before the game started.
I only ever pile shuffled to count cards. I would always mash shuffle well after pile shuffling, and I did have a pile shuffle catch me being short cards in my main deck before (forgot to bring in a sideboard card)
I think one other possible cheat with sideboarding games is marked cards. My personal feeling is that sideboard cards should be unsleeved and you have extra sleeves off to the side in case a sleeve breaks. Your main deck sleeves will always be more worn than your sideboard sleeves just because those main deck sleeves are in every game, whereas your sideboard sleeves are in 2 of 3 games at best. So if you don't want a risk of unintentionally marked cards, don't sleeve up your sideboard. If you need to sideboard, physically pull the cards out of the sleeve and then sleeve up the sideboarded cards.
I was taught to mana weave or distribute into piles before shuffling normally by my high school physics teacher. Then, someone said I was wasting time because random means random. Setting up anything beforehand is pointless if you shuffle properly afterwards. It was a huge fucking OH DUH moment and I realized how stupid I was.
well it could have been worse ; it could have taken you until now to figure it out when reading a youtube comment...:)
I typically play kitchen table magic at a good friend's house. This guy has been playing pretty much since Magic started and I caught him mana weaving the other day. I explained why that is cheating and no matter how many reasons I gave him, he wouldn't believe me and he said that's how everyone at home shuffles. Now I know why I always get the worst draws and they all seem to have perfect hands- I'm the only honest player amongst a group of cheaters 😐
From my experience, if I don't pile-shuffle one time between games, my mash shuffles don't stick. No clue why, maybe its the way I mash-shuffle. My go to is mash-shuffle 3 times, pile shuffle into 7 piles, then mash shuffle 5-7 more times JUST to be sure. That is usually enough that I wont feel like I'm drawing the exact same hands every game. Also, I ALWAYS cut my opponents decks, even in casual/at-home. Always. Even when they just fetch real quick. Its not me thinking my opponent is cheating, I just see it as another important part of shuffling.
Always cut your opponents deck.
I usually will do one pile shuffle, but that's only in a game of commander, and that's usually with cards that I can't mash together well due to the sleeves having bad corners.
Technically, you’re allowed one “pile count” per game in sanctioned play. It’s not a method of randomization, but does allow one to make sure they have the correct number of cards in the deck.
In competitive play, I always shuffle the opponents deck or cut before playing.
Especially when I notice an abnormal shuffle and drawing out single cards during shuffling.
That was awkward af and that would have sent my red flag up instantly. Randomly "oh, this one card goes to the top as I kind of see where it is, then keep doing through. Also constantly looking through the deck as you shuffle? please, keep shuffling bro. I would call him out so hard. and call the judge to come shuffle the deck if he refuses my cut/shuffle.
If you pile shuffle, then mass shuffle would that be ok?
Julian's shuffling is some of the smoothest I've ever seen
Decades ago I played with someone that would intentionally and surreptitiously gleek on their opponent's cards. This would cause them to be ever so slightly wet in spots and make them stick together. One of the reasons I developed a habit of pile shuffling in addition to mashing/riffling was because cards that are stuck together with his spit are generally going to stick together more through riffles/mashing. Since mostly my lands are going to be what got wet, this would cause excessive land clumps and a lot of bad draws.
🤮
I agree with you on everything but One thing. I do not want anyone mashing my cards together. You can cut it. Or call a judge over if you really want to.
I am a bit on the fence about the whole 'pile shuffling' rant. To me, there would be very little difference in card order between pile shuffling and, say, bridge shuffling where you put effort towards making sure that the cards alternate really often. Both methods "re-distribute" the cards, which I thought was the whole POINT of shuffling in the first place. But Kenobi's logic would seem to call that into question? Maybe it's just me not thinking 'broadly' enough, given that I haven't ever sat in a tourney before....but calling pile shuffling cheating "if done more than [arbitrary number] times per [arbitrary number] of rounds"? Eh....sorry I don't buy it. Maybe an unpopular opinion :D
Shit, if they are that worried about it, there's a million different mechanical ways to shuffle decks to whatever 'randomness' you would like. It's still...random. That's sort of the whole point, after all. It's also why they use those in those tiny places that make a couple of bucks off games of chance...like say, casinos. Note that usually the dealers do not shuffle. Almost a point to that I think.
Cheers, and thanks for a great vid that made me think a bit!!
How do you feel about "weaving" aka equally distributing lands from match one BEFORE shuffling it up normally?
Sometimes I do that out of superstition that the "same" chunks get mash shuffled around in a big blob.
As long as you sufficiently randomize afterwards it's not technically cheating but if your are randomizing your deck enough why do it in the first place.
@@unixtreme superstition basically
Its cheating
It was so funny when I learned I had been doing land math wrong my whole life, getting mad about mana screw, and happened to have a kitchen table group that was all fine with mana weaving, so long as we'd all do it face down. Like, take pile of nonlands, pile of lands, and 2:1 it into a "random" stack.
Once I stopped making 60 card decks with 20... 18 ... okay, sometimes 16 lands, and 5+ mana spells, I did just fine with real shuffling.
About "redistributing the deck" one thing I often do when I shuffle, especially after a long game, is that as I'm picking up my lands, graveyard, and everything that was cast during the game I do a quick shuffle of just those cards and then split those into a few small chunks that a throw into the deck. I then shuffle the entire thing as normal. I'm not sure if it matters at all but it at least feels like if I do a bad job of fully shuffling then everything from the previous game didn't end up going back in one giant clump on the top.
So you are absolutely correct it is pointless if you properly randomized deck and if you didn't shuffle well enough to begin with then you, by definition, cheated.
Was it intentional - probably not. Do you deserve a DQ - not until it happens multiple times or it is shown to be intentional. Is it still cheating - yes
It's what people get most wrong about cheating. It happens all the time in all forms of competition but we just call them penalties which is a misnomer. They are cheating and the penalties are the punishment. For example, offsides in football is cheating but the penalty for that form of cheating is 5 yards given to the other team
Edit: the fact that when you riffle shuffle a new deck of playing cards 7 times, the chance that it has been in that order before is astronomically low so it proves that starting order doesn't matter to where the cards end up
@@showingthelinks8441 Really? I post about a 1 to 2 second extra shuffle I like to do to give some extra peace of mind and you respond with this long reply about how I'm possibly cheating?