@@mikedubs9940 There is nothing wrong with bourbon pricing. Period. I love how people think capitalism is the problem. Really? Think the shelves are running over with Blanton's in Venezuela? I used to drink Frogs Leap wine. It was cheap and tasted good. Then one day some schmuck that works for a wine magazine ranked it as a 92, prices sky rocketed and I haven't bought since (to your hype)
Marketing into the retail environment has involved a “buy this from me & I’ll take care of you”-mindset from day one on a distributor level. Stocking requirements & shelf-placement is the backbone driving floorplans across the country. Not just alcohol- Coca Cola Company v. Pepsico is a classic example. Competition on counters & window-display placement of products are all negotiable based on the inherent value of retail visibility. The games played across the board are many & ultimately tiresome.
This is great explanation on how the whiskey/liquor market really works. I honestly think the people at Buffalo Trace/Sazerac talk out of both sides of their mouth. On one side they say, they aren’t raising prices to appease potential buyers, but on the other side they love the secondary market because they love bullying liquor stores into selling their crappy high margin booze (Fireball, etc). I think your ideas about capitalism are a bit pie in the sky. True capitalism is selling your product for whatever the market will tolerate. It doesn’t really care if it’s a sophisticated purchaser or, for lack of better term, a sucker. There is no moral compass for capitalism other than self interest and profit. That’s why there is regulation and over sight.
I think listening to the full podcast would reveal that BT is powerless to fix this problem today. They would have needed a time machine. The question isn't could the fix the problem with more product, the question is why don't they fix the problem by raising prices and taking profits. If they are the evil corporation that everyone says they are why are they letting flippers and unscrupulous liquor store owners make THEIR MONEY?
@@BourbonRealTalk I chatted with an online retailer recently and asked if he felt the least bit guilty for charging double for a Booker’s (knowing darn well he didn’t). But what I didn’t expect was that he said Jim Beam made him buy about $10K worth of other Beam booze he didn’t need in order to get the Booker’s. Who knows if that’s actually true, but quite interesting if it is and offers more insight to the consumer/screw-ee.
@@yanksrule311 We discuss this business tactic in the video. It is technically illegal and the legal term is called an Inducement. It can be a bit of grey area. It isn't Jim Beam doing it, but Jim Beams state wholesaler. The rep comes in and says, "Hey, I would love to get you some Bookers, but we are reserving those for our best Jim Beam customers. You just don't sell that much volume". This is technically legal. Once the rep says "To get at that level you will need to sell X amount of Y products", then it becomes illegal. It happens in one way or another to literally ever independent liquor store owner I have ever talked to.
Sir, you are 100% correct about the loved one buying the overpriced bourbon. My wife tends to do that on occasion since shes always seeking something new and popular for me. We stopped by the store that she usually buys from last week. On the shelf were 10 bottles of EHT Small Batch with a price tag of $94.99. WSR was $54.99 ECBP was $95. The owner clearly knows the "popular" stuff and is charging a ridiculous amount for them. However, the standard stuff was normal pricing. After discussions with my wife about how they were charging triple retail price and how outrageous that is, she goes on to say "wow, I would have bought it and not known any better". I can only imagine how much they ripped her off over the years while she thought she was doing me a favor buying hard to find bourbons. Meanwhile the owner was completely taking advantage of her and other wives looking to buy a nice bottle for their significant others.
I have found so many whiekies I like for reasonable prices, I can't force myself to pay more that about $80 for a bottle, usually closer to $50. For single malt, my cutoff price is about $110. For my tasting ability, that's where my ROI starts to drop off pretty fast.
I think you brought up some really good points regarding this subject and were able to explain very eloquently. At the end of the day I can understand a bit of a markup from retailers on the hottest items in the market but some of these prices are just insane.
I literally just had a conversation at a store in California yesterday on this exact topic. What happens here is the distributors leverage the store to take on more inventory of other products if they want to get of the allocated bottles. They will add up to an additional 1k of inventory just to get a couple of Weller bottles. The other thing I'm curious about is why the producers send product to distributors in countries that do not typically consume bourbon in any kind of volume. I have friends who travel to Canada and they send me pictures of highly sought after bottles that are on their shelves 10 bottles deep with dust on them. Why don't they send more of that to the states where it is clearly in demand?
The specific situation where rare bottles are collecting dust isn't happening anywhere in the world anymore. It was happening at the beginning of the inventory crunch, but not now. The reason why they are still shipping to foreign markets when demand in the US is so high is because the US almost let bourbon become a thing of the past in the 70-90s. Foreign markets kept bourbon alive. Now they have enough demand to sell all they have hear, but can not let foreign markets die for two reasons. One, they don't know if the USA will turn their backs on bourbon again. Two, they all have invested literally billions in increasing capacity, and without foreign market growth they will all go bankrupt when capacity comes online if it doesn't sell.
My interest in Bourbon is new, and mostly casual. I’m learning about this allocation and gouging stuff. I’ve spent most of my adult life interested in wine, and while you don’t quite see the same thing there, what I did learn over the years is a $45 bottle of Oregon Pinot Noir is just as good as a $1,300 bottle of Grand Cru Burgundy. Essentially what I’m saying is unless you’re extreme into this hobby, I’m guessing that your first sip of a $1,300 bottle of bourbon is going to quickly fade to the disappointment of realizing it’s only marginally better, if at all, than a $45 to $60 bottle of bourbon. Correct me if I’m wrong. I just don’t feel the temptation to chase a bottle of VanWinkle only to learn that lesson again.
Literally why I got into bourbon. I used to collect wine. I acquired a bottle of 1983 Chateau Petrus and kept it for years. I finally opened it, drank it with a friend in about 45 min, and never bought another expensive bottle of wine. I like to share, and wine does not last long enough after you open it for it to truly be something you share. I switched to whiskey and buy a lot of hard to find bottles to have the experience of drinking them with someone who would not otherwise have a chance to try them.
Your Exactly correct, I chose plain bottled 'Buffalo Trace' over "Pappy van winkle 15yr" in a blind tasting.. I was taken aback to say the least. The Buffalo trace was 30 dollars a bottle and the pappy was 2,700 however I did prefer the nose of the Pappy over the Buffalo, very strange.
Personally I think you are exactly right.And people that by the fireball stuff,should just eat that candy “Atomic fire balls”and drink Jim Beam on top…be the perfect burn..Going in,and comin out..
Wow! I feel like I just took a college level class in whiskey! Excellent content. And this is shameful, but it was Fireball that got me into serious whiskeys. I drank enough of that stuff i should qualify for Pappy at suggested retail!
What works for me is after a few visits I tell the owner to sell me something allocated at a fair price and I will buy a few bottles of the things that don’t move. End up using them for mixes and cocktails.
Randy, truly appreciate the time and effort you and your team put into these videos and all the research that goes into it. Class act. Not to mention the fact you take time to reply to every comment.. even butt heads. Thank you for being you, brother. Look forward to consuming more content and growing my 🥃 knowledge with folks like you 👌🏼 keep it up. Oh and that Goat is amazing as well 🙌🏼 thanks for keeping those prices straight.
Appreciate it. I have been getting pretty beat up in the comments the last few days, so I needed that. Glad you like the The Prideful Goat. If we ever get together in person I will tell you the 3 book series drama of keeping the prices straight 😂
This video brings back fond memories of having to make the hard decision of Weller S.R for 20, Weller 107 for 30 or Weller 12 for 45. The 107 usually won :)
Wow! As a noob getting into Bourbon, I'm finding your channel more than informational, which is certainly good. Pointedly, I think you may need to change your channel name to "The Professor of Bourbon". Thanks again for the great info and reviews, and of course the love!
I think Bourbon Real Talk is spot on. I love the business acumen and logic being applied. I also enjoyed the talk you had about sourced bourbon. I would love to hear your analysis and views about where this is going now that a certain Indiana based distiller has bought Luxco and most likely will be acquiring other brands.
One correction I would make is that Sazerac (who owns Buffalo Trace) is not a publicly traded company as you mentioned. They are a privately owned corporation.
You are correct sir! I was informed of that fact by the owner of the label company that prints their labels on Monday. I was ignorant of that fact until then. I am sorry for my error.
I work in the liquor industry and skateboard industry that has me laughing when flippers get their greedy hands on stuff then jack the prices up. I work for a large company in TX but have spoken to mom/pop shops who have been strongarmed to carry a ton of Fireball to get a couple bottles of the good stuff, Nike is the same way with their SB shoes for skate shops which is why we do not carry skate shoes in our shop. Great video!
At least with the shoe shot you can choose not do buy Nike. They liquor stores still have to deal with the wholesaler because they get so much of their inventory from them.
I'm really enjoying your videos. Every liquor store in Southern California does this. Either it's marked up 300% of MSRP, or they make you buy bottles in a bundle. One of the liquor stores I used to frequent quite often, was supposedly the #1 pusher of all Sazerac products in Southern California, would make you buy bundles to get one allocated bottle. I did get my bottle of Weller's Full Proof for $100, but I had to buy 1 Buffalo Trace, 1 Larceny and 1 Brothers Bond. Or they sell a bottle of Blanton's or Stagg Jr for $200, but if you wanted to get it for MSRP $60, you had to buy 2 bottles of BT and 2 bottles of Sazerac Rye. And the sales clerk told me exactly what you said, if they can push certain products, they will be guarantee more allocated bottles from the distributor because that's where they make their money from.
I discovered the channel only a few weeks ago, and this video is one of the best reasons in a long time to subscribe to a channel. Thanks for the history lesson, I enjoyed that. Whether your concrete theory or interpretation is correct or not - for me, it makes sense at least - is not even crucial. Some mentioned infos, I've never heard, and they explain or make comprehensible a lot. That triggers me a bit to inform myself, how things are working on the international level. I'm from Germany, the 3-tier system doesn not exist in Europe as far as I know. Good work man!
Great video - great point about loved ones…Ive specifically told my wife, Dad and sister not to buy some of these crazy priced bottles for me. My Dad first bought me Blantons several years ago for $50-$60 and Ive told them not to pay the $150+ that many stores try to sell it for.
Went to Buffalo Trace Distillery last week and purchased Buffalo Trace for $27 and Blantons for $68. Then went to Nashville for a concert and stopped in a liquor store close to the hotel… they were selling BT for $100 and Blantons for $230.
A local retailer in my area does this same mark up game. Funny thing is, all those bottles don’t sell. We call them a whiskey museum. There they are, 3 or more year old releases, dusty, just sitting. What aggravates me, is when a customer comes in, finds a not so well known whiskey and buys it. Only to find that the next time he goes to purchase another one, the retailer has marked it up another $10-$20. And will continue to do so, until you just walk. What kind of business model is that ? I no longer purchase high end product from that store. So basically the greedy store lost a good customer. Something else I noticed about this same retailer, he will actually buy high end product at a local grocery store ( which sells it at MSRP ) and sell it at his liquor store at double the price or more. I actually saw him do it with a rare Japanese whisky, bought every damn bottle. It’s insanity. Thanks for the great content !
Such an eloquent way of explaining the inflated prices of bourbon in today’s market. I will also add that while it’s true that the distillers aren’t necessarily withholding inventory to limit the supply, I’ve heard that distributors hold on to inventory at warehouses. I think local reps also play the game, and manipulate small retail stores by requiring them to move inventory (like fireball or Wheatley vodka) just to receive a few bottles of Weller or any other Buffalo “Chase” products. So that’s also a big reason why retail shops jack up the prices. Because they have to make up the cost of the 80 cases of Fireball they had to buy just to get the one bottle of George T Stagg.
I know this to be true because the last few allocated bottles I have gotten at retail at the end of the year were not that year's release. Old inventory they had not doubt to reward key accounts that they decided to get out of the warehouse after a couple of years.
We tried to tour Buffalo Trace. Covid restricted the tour sizes. Tickets were online only. We were able to visit the Company Store. There was no Bourbon available for sale. They had even taken all bottles from gift sets to help customers get product. It is a nice place to visit. Bourbon Trail tours are on our to do list this year.
Love the pod.. I'm in Australia.. we have no nope.. no stock, no allocations of over priced hooch, no scale or buying power & we have a huge tax on booze to boot.. plus don't forget the cost of transit.. we pay approx. $130 for a bottle of hooch that's probs $50 in US&A.. we sadly probs a 3rd or 4th tier market from an allocation / buying power POV.. not a global centre of Bourbon sales, events or buying power.. 😥
Thank you for the view from Australia. Sorry to hear bourbon is so hard to come by. On a positive note, I used to drink wine. I couldn't afford all the great wines I wanted to drink so I would buy common wines, but I would research everything I could before I opened it, I would adjust the temp to the perfect serving temp, I would decant it, and some how it made it taste better. I think that if bourbon is that hard to come buy you brain may enjoy it that much more when you do get it...at least I hope that is the case. Cheers!
@@BourbonRealTalk well.. yes we are spoilt with wine! We do get some bourbon BUT some the lovely drops you mention at $100 are $400-500 over here & near impossible to find.. maybe we should do an exchange? Lols. Love the vlog. Safe travs.
Good History, good point of view. The same is happening in the luxury watch market right now. limited supply pricing people out. The ADs are now withholding product to certain account managers/vendors. Eventually the market corrects itself as the consumer decides what to do with their hard earned money.
The big difference is the watch companies can change who they sell to, or go direct to consumer. In whiskey the producers do not have that free market right, so it makes these problems harder to fix.
The store I get my buffalo trace, blanton's, and occasionally Taylor and Weller from has been increasing their inventory and one of the first things I noticed before this all happened was a Fireball fridge that was put in next to the checkout
Inducements are real. If you bring it up to the manager/owner, it will show them you understand their situation and possibly help you be the one they let buy the good bottles.
At some sneaker drops, the retailer is making the buyer put on the shoes and walk out of the store in them. It helps tear down the resale market as it’s now “used” and loses value. If they really wanted to end the bourbon secondary market, they would just make people open the bottle before they walk out of the store. End of the day, it goes both ways and retailers will continue to gouge as long as consumers are willing to pay those prices.
Man this is fascinating.. i realize this exact thing is going on at my local B and M. I feel a certain level of compassion for the guy who has been selling this merchandise a little high up.. he packages the desired bottle with a lesser known as part of deal for buying from him. I figure on a narrow margin. Great vid.
It is a difficult problem to solve. I don't mind bundles, raffles, or points systems. I do mind when a store decides who gets the bottle by who is willing to pay the most, that damages the brand. Plus, it is just lazy. Take the time to get to know your customers and use those bottles to incentivize behavior that will help your store be more profitable.
Great job as always. Appreciate your insights. It really is a shame when someone gets “taken” by an unscrupulous retailer. As for me, I will not pay more than double what the Msrp is, and only then, on something very, very allocated! And then, I’m drinking it with some special friends!
That is a solid plan. I base the top end of my price range off of secondary and not MSRP, but as long as you have a plan to make sure you are comfortable with your purchases that is good enough for me.
Very well done. With small craft whiskey coming into their own you can find hidden gems from a local distillery. You can follow the growth of a new brand. Visit the distillery and buy direct.
Stumbled across this video and I'm really glad that I did. Very informative and really enjoyed the information you shared. Much of it I already knew but I found some of it very interesting. I look forward to watching more of your content.
I’m a newbie to bourbon and have enjoyed your videos immensely. I’ve just started my collection with a five bottle line up of Eagle Rare, Calumet 15 year, Blanton’s, Weller Special Reserve, and Four Roses Special Reserve Single Barrel. The Eagle Rare is great for making an old fashion. I don’t think I’m developed enough to appreciate the Calumet. I’ve held off on opening the Blanton’s and Weller so far. The Four Roses is a different story…it has blown me away, and makes a nice sipping, neat of course, spirit after a long day,.
Don't be afraid to open the Blanton's and WSR. They are not going to degrade before you drink them. I think having a diverse line up of bottles and trying them side by side is a great way to develop your palate and see what you like. 4R is high rye, so you might explore that. Try an Old Grand Dad BiB or 114. Pick up a Bulliet and see if you like it. Also high rye with very similar distillation techniques as 4R (the two companies histories are intertwined). Try a Russel's rye or Knob Creek rye. Cheers!
@@BourbonRealTalk Thanks for the feedback, really excited about getting deeper into the bourbon game. Love the channel and the presentation, really good for someone wanting to learn with an open mind.
My retail theory is as follows; the stores that get there 3-6 bottles of GTS or pappy, or whatever, don’t really want to sell them. It’s not like those bottles are lots of overhead so they can sit around for when the taters call up asking for pappy, the shop owner can say “yup I have a bottle”. Tater runs down there sees price and balks, but does he leave empty handed? Nope, shop owner “suggests” his high margin spirit and if super tater comes in has to have that pappy juice to impress is bros, then shop guy is happy to sell him that bottle for $2k. Good vid, thanks for laying it out there for the noobs to understand why we’re all being jacked around. There’s plenty of good bourbon out there at retail folks, don’t pay 10x for those unicorn bottles.
That may be the logic, but I have seen more high volume purchasers swear to never spend a penny in a store that gouges than I have seen taters picking up daily drinkers. My argument to the store is to use those few bottles to reward behavior you want to see more of, not to chase away the volume business that keeps your doors open.
I was in the retail biz….starting about 1990, and for the next roughly 20 years, thru that time saw the release of eagle rare and no one wanted it, Forrester was a brand no one really purchased, I’d sell 20 cases JD, to one bottle of forester. Turkey…maybe a case a month, 114 a bottle a month. Point is this has evolved out of nowhere. No one really purchased Evan Williams. I was around for the rollouts of Sky, Amsterdam, etc….. What will be “the category” in another 10 years????
Just stumbled on this episode, so on point. Completely agree, BT are solving the secondary with supply and not via pricing, it’s a long game but a great legacy builder. Great video.
Really enjoying these videos sir. My guess is, as long as the 3 tier system is in place, retailers will continue to price these up high. As you have mentioned in other videos, these stores deal with a lot of stress and hassle over these bottles regardless of whether they price them low or high. Thanks for the information.
Great point! I hope we get direct to consumer shipping, but I doubt any of the legacy distilleries would take advantage for fear of messing up a good thing.
Truly enjoyed this explanation of the pricing issue. It affects anyone who enjoys just about any bourbon beyond well drink level. It’s kind of the Wild West here in L.A. While the chain retailers typically charge SRP (Total Wine, BevMo), the supplies disappear almost immediately. Inventory is slim and thinly distributed throughout the system. The big box stores (Costco) graciously offer discounts even on higher demand juice (e.g., Calumet 15 @$98, Barrell Seagrass and Dovetail @ $70 and $65, Knob Creek 12 @$56). Some retailers have websites that offer real time inventory on their stocks and offer at or near SRP (K&L) but the “bots” scoop up all of the precious few allocated bottles before any average customer can. K&L also will set aside super-allocated bottles like BTAC and offer those at SRP only to their frequent customers. The “small business-owned” liquor shops will mark up ~40-50%>SRP (ECBP @$100) or close to or at secondary market prices. EH Taylor Single Barrel ~$250? Old Carter for $300+? Those bottles sit on the shelves collecting dust. I’d think that Inventory that sits and takes up shelf space is not a wise business decision for a retailer but that’s just me. The bourbon supplies in general will eventually reach at or near equilibrium with demand one day - I’m betting within the next four to six years. There’s far too much money being left on the table.
Great info. Made me feel better about not getting anything allocated yesterday when it all dropped. I saw people in a Facebook group getting raked over the coals, and now I have a better u derstanfing of why
I have pretty much stopped drinking/purchasing bourbon because of the wacked out pricing. My tastes now seem to run towards several scotch distillers. The nice thing about it is these are not price gouged and are easily purchased. So, I have been able to move on and enjoy the choices I have.
The scotch industry has been adjusting pricing to market value for decades. Bourbon has not, and it has resulting in some wacky pricing by stores and the secondary compared to MSRP. I still think shelf bourbons represent a relative value compared to scotch.
I’ve watched a handful of your videos now and I like you message. This was a great long for explainer on some of the industry inside baseball. Thanks for the content.
At 16:00, the actual role of the tier system was to control the entire supply chain and ensure excise tax collection. It continues to be sold as a “protection measure” against downward pricing pressure as you say; however, in practice it’s now become protection for the distributors given the large amount of industry consolidation (i.e. Southern Glazers).
Blew my mind with the power of the influence of the Pappy brand on Fireball and others for Sazerac. I think the price gouging also takes advantage of whiskey novices who don't know about or have access to the secondary market, and have heard of but never seen a bottle of Weller Full Proof, GTS, etc., and freak out and buy it if they can even remotely afford it.
I wonder how often that happens, and the person doesn’t even like the product? Just from the hype of it being rare, and influencers telling them how good it is.
@@rockinpranch8173 If you drink enough whiskey you come to the conclusion the the flavor difference between the rarest bottle and a solid drinker is NOT worth the money the rare bottles cost on secondary, so I think this must be happening some or the stores would not be pricing the bottles this way.
I don’t know of any retailer in my area that sells their bourbon whiskey for retail price. I think one of the reasons why the secondary market is so high is because the retailers are realizing that there’s more money out there and so they’re raising the price to exaggerated levels and the average person like myself can’t buy it. But the guy looking to make $500 on it will buy it and sell it on the secondary market. So between the retailers price gouging and the secondary market hooligans who probably don’t even drink it they’re closing the market to the people who really do enjoy the bourbon. My local retailer said he had some pappy coming in and it was $1000 for a bottle that’s the retailer. So needless to say I’ve never had any pappy and probably never will.
The bigger stores typically sell at MSRP in my area. The market will stabilize, but it will be years before it happens. Get involved in the whiskey community and you will get to try all kinds of bourbon that are hard to find. Someone Say Whiskey is a good start. Plenty of free sample giveaways on there. I would look for a local club too. Cheers!
Interesting story. This weekend I went to my local liquor store that I've been going to for around 4 years. I normally buy Elijah Craig and Four Roses. They had Eagle Rare 10 there for $65 and Heaven Hill bonded for $55. I said why not and bought both. After paying for them I asked the owner if he ever got regular BT. He got a big smile on his face and asked if I wanted some. Like he was a drug dealer with some special drug lol. I said sure and he just gave me a bottle of BT for $22. I despise the huge markups that some of the online stores charge, making a $50-60 bottle 10-15 times retail. But if a local small business wants to charge reasonably more for the allocated stuff, 25-50% higher, I'm ok with it.
Well said. I believe it is greed. A $69 bottle for $189? Greed....as they get minimal allocated amount of bottles to make a dent to their bottom line on an annualized basis. They should get the allocated bottles and sell one allocated bottle per customer while supplies last. I personally do not patronize stores that sell allocated bourbons at Sky high prices.
great video man ,, don't know about you but when i see a retail liquor store mark up a bottle like that i just go somewhere else. that is just BS .. some places do a lotto or some other way to get your favorite bottle ,, and that's cool because they still sell it at MSRP. and thank you buffalo trace for not raising prices so everyone can enjoy your great products...!!
Thanks! I do the same thing. No reason to try to form a relationship with my local store if the benefit is me giving them my money for something I could get anywhere else. I need to spend my money where it will benefit the store and me.
Inducements ABSOLUTELY still exist. In the past 6 months I've been to 11 states (NC, SC, TN, KY, GA, FL, VA, WV, MD, PA, and NY) whiskey hunting, probably 200+ stores. Especially in non- ABC (state controlled) states, the distribution system is incredibly corrupt. In talking to dozens of owners, I've found that South Carolina is one of the worst. You will almost never find allocated product in the state, at any price. I've had owners tell me that the wholesaler will promise x cases of Blanton's if they buy 20 cases of Jim Beam Black, and when delivery day comes the Blanton's mysteriously isn't on the truck and there's nothing they can do. From a business standpoint (I have my MBA), the whiskey industry is fascinating....and frustrating.
If I said something that made it sound like inducements don't exist I did not mean to. They are absolutely happening now. So frustrating for the small retail stores being pressured to buy product they don't have customers for just so they don't lose their whiskey regulars that are paying the bills. Thanks for watching.
Well, I don't say this very often, but I absolutely and completely agree with your very well-reasoned and informed opinion. Thanks for sharing this with those who haven't yet taken the time to research this topic. Cheers!
I'm on the fence here. I took Micro and Macro Economics in college. I would love to be in the board room of these large producers throwing up what if charts. I know the only purpose of a publicly traded corporation is to maximize shareholder profitability. How that is done, well some do it good and some go to bankruptcy. I think the retailers operate more on gut instinct and want to get as much profit as they can on every bottle. The ones that do it right, stay in business. The ones that do it wrong go out of business at some time. I do respect the retailers because most of them are putting up their own assets. I don't look it as greed but maximizing the return on what they put in the business.
I agree. My only issue is the 3 tier laws make it so one business's decisions can affect another business, and there is nothing the affected business can do about it.
I bought my Weller full proof at $59. I found an honest retailer and stuck with him. I feel so bad for people who are taken advantage of. Just today I bought a Weller special reserve 1.75L bottle for $42, and two weeks before saw the 750ml bottle going for $150 in a liquor store in north Texas. It made me sick to see it. I don’t know what to make of that…
That is why I hope this video and other's like it help people avoid buying something not knowing what it should be sold for. And WSR being sold above retails is crazy. It is on every shelf of every large liquor store most of the time. It isn't even hard to find here. Hope no one gets taken advantage of. Cheers!
A lot of this has to do with wether it is an open state or a control state. In an open state you purchase directly from a broker, they control distribution. In a control state the alcohol beverage control division will have a major say in that ends up where. States don’t like retailers sticking a bottle in a lock box with an eye watering price on it because Sazarac doesn’t like that and it can affect a state’s allocation. So most rare bottle sales are done quietly out of sight. People blame speculators for driving up the prices but without buyers who will shell out $1500 for a George T Stagg there wouldn’t be any speculators. I was a liquor rep for over 14 years and it took a while to get used to this rare bourbon craziness. Most of the reps I know, along with myself, thought this was a fad because how many customers would pay these kind of prices? Turns out a bunch will and there’s no end in sight. I can’t possibly explain how crazy it is to remember when it was common for a store to take a month to sell a case of 3 Pappys to seeing them quietly get sold for 10 times their suggested retail. And the buyers are happy to pay it. There was a time when having a Cuban or an Opus XX in your humidor impressed your friends, now it’s having a rare Weller on your back bar.
Love the last point you made about a possible none whiskey enthusiast buying a bottle extremely overpriced for someone else as a gift! Never thought of it that way but I can see that happening more than one thinks!
Thank you for watching the video and for your comment. Yes, it's important to consider that some people might be buying overpriced bourbon as gifts without realizing the true value of the bottle. It's a good reminder to always do your research before making a purchase. Have you ever bought a bottle of bourbon as a gift?
same thing happens with some cigars. Look no further than Fuente Opus X. a $10 Power Ranger will cost $50+ online or through various retailers. While some of the other sizes will cost close to $90. Most people wouldn't know any better and just assume it's an expensive cigar. It always grinds my gears when retailers are charging an outrageous price for something. I understand a markup, perhaps a heavy one but charging 2-3x plus retail is just greed. as for secondary market. That's just it. You're seeing an artificially inflated demand due to resellers. The internet has made it too easy for gougers to flip sought after products. Look at new tech such as consoles, graphics cards when there's a big leap, etc. When a new Playstation or Xbox drops resellers and scalpers are selling them for over twice retail. We saw people and groups using bots to buy 40 to hundreds+ with the sole intent of flipping. For how great the internet is this is just another example of how being online has corrupted and ruined us.
Wow! I am a new whiskey enthusiast. This is such great analysis and information. Thank you so much! I started learning about whiskey about a couple of months ago and already learned so much from people like you. Please keep up the good work. I have not gone over all your videos or podcast, but I have noticed in my experience so far that it is difficult to hunt allocated bottles in my area without knowing the shop owner. I also don't want to buy many unnecessary bottles to make them think I am a valued customer that they should be my friend. But I am sure there are some tips or middle ground to build that relationship. If you haven't made a topic on that, I would love to hear your thoughts.
The Balvenie 30 spoken about was up the street from where I live in Plano TX at Total Wine that has a lot of bottles that has some of us wondering where they get those prices. Then again, the area where I live has a Tesla/McLaren/911/etc where no one cares what they spend in order to impress others...not me.
I am a liquor store owner & you’re right on point. The way the 2nd tier makes us buy all the stuff we don’t need, to get those so called “allocated products” is really criminal. At this point it’s getting even worse with regular products! They push so many products that no one will ever buy and waste shelf space, which is causing the increase in prices. Don’t get me started on the secondary market! They buy all the allocations and sell them at a crazy high price & expect the retailers to keep their prices low. So here every retailer is stuck with products that won’t sell and it hurts business!
The solution is direct to consumer sales and shipping. The 3/4 tier system does NOT work for small producers. This is American, and if someone wants to start a distillery they should be allowed to do so if they follow the law. The problem is they have to sell through a wholesaler and the wholesaler to a retailer. There are too many small distilleries for liquor stores to put all the products on the shelves. This puts retailers in a position here they are expected to carry products that have little to no buyers. That producer should be able to succeed or fail on their own without dragging a retailer into it, and when they get big enough that they have customers THEN go through the 3 tier system. This is the way it will be in the future, but the wholesale lobbyist are TOO GREEDY AND STUPID to see that giving up their monopoly would actually help them in the long run. No more needing to give sales support to a shitty unknown brand...just focus on the winners and move volume.
@@BourbonRealTalk exactly my point 💯 the wholesalers are creating a fake shortage. For example let’s say you want a certain bottle they will have it but they show it’s out of stock or on hold. Then they sell the same product to the bigger chain stores like specs, twins & total wine. These big chain stores hoard products like Blanton’s. Which then creates a shortage and a craze to get these bottles. The secondary market kicks in and the the vicious circle of price increase begins. BTW love your channel
Correct, true capitalism is sustainable, and yet it does not guarantee that any one business has a monopoly on survivability. A major point why rules are placed into many business structures is because of the fear of monopolies which ruins competition and by definition the existence of the capitalistic spirit, which means you do actually need some regulation, especially to monitor behavior of everyone in the industry to try to provide someone's interpretation of what is best for the economy. That part of the control structure is constantly changing due to politics.
The control structure for spirits in the US sets up a monopoly in opposition to what is best for consumers. The problem is the laws have not changed in 90 years.
Excellent content and just the information I needed as I'm curious of/about US made whiskies, especially bourbons. As an everyday regular Joe living in Finland, good bourborns are really hard to find.
I hear the same thing from a lot of overseas viewers. The good news is the bourbons that do make it over are from major producers who do not make bad products. The downside is you don't get access to a much of the product that is highly sought after.
The astronomical mark up here in Kentucky where it is literally made is insane. Every store in the state is terrible. For example a local liquor store us. E.H.Taylor's msrp is $43. They are charging $180. It's insane.
That is insane. Luckily there are some stores around me that still sell at normal markup. The problem is all the whiskey lover's know it and we are all shopping at the same few stores.
Dang, i always though the atore owner was just happy to have the bottle sitting on the shelf. I've never even thought about the intended buyer for a whiskey marked up 1,600% being a loved one.
Thankfully the large store I work at sells everything at regular retail. I would be ashamed to participate in such scamming. The bad news is we can hardly get any rare or allocated stuff at any price. If we do it goes to regular customers, not usually people who just walk in off the street.
Inducements are still very real. As a restaurant manager, I can't get Papi, Stagg, Weller, etc. because I don't buy enough of the other Buffalo Trace products.
Totally agree with everything. I have noticed Weller mostly go through the roof. It's funny the big stores can't even get any Weller cause they raised the price so much but I found a small store who gets 2 bottles a month and sells for MSRP! Yeah, I became good friends with that store :-)
I wish all stores would use the allocated bottles to form relationships with customers like you, instead of jacking up the price. I think they make more in the long run off of a solid relationship than they do off one overpriced bottle.
@@jasongass764 This is happening because the decision makers do not have access to secondary market data. They will google the bottle and find some illegal online retailer from overseas that is trying to sell the one bottle they have to an unsuspecting dupe and falsely assume that is the market value. The solution is to shop their regularly for some daily drinkers that are on the shelf (as long as their shelf prices are reasonable). Chat up the decision maker every time you are in their, but don't ask about the bottle you have your eye on. Then when you feel like you have good rapport show them a secondary market listing and explain you could have that bottle shipped to your house for that price, then ask them if they will sell it to you for something between MSRP and the secondary price. They will often do it because they see it as them still making a good profit off the bottle, but securing a relationship for the future.
The problem with bourbon in VA is government employees give certain customers inside information. The bottles used to be scanned in prior to opening, but now they are not. People flip them for a ridiculous profit. I don't have any issue with private owners marking things up, that's their Prerogative
Wow, thank you! It appears bourbon only channels cap out around 85K, but I am growing as fast as I can. If you want to get more involved I would like to invite you to our free member group. facebook.com/groups/bourbonrealtalkcommunity
This is truly a fantastic video, especially for some of us here in Europe who’s into scotch but have just begun getting into the bourbon world. Thanks 🙏
i have an idea for you, move to a state with ABC controlled distribution. you will find everything at msrp but its up to the state to decide what bottles they buy, in my state for example you never see weller at all unless its end of the year state lotto and its typically about 200 bottles for the entire state. trust me i'd much rather live in a state where they can order what they want and sell it for what they want instead of the ABC deciding what bottles to get and when to distribute them.
There are benefits and drawbacks to control states for sure. This video I was trying to explain that the problem is supply. If you are going to fix it with price it needs to go to the producer and not the retailer taking the additional money from all three/four tiers. Especially when you consider the producer knew they could have sold their product for more and didn't for strategic business reasons. In that environment a retailer raising the price hurts the producer and stupid antiquated laws make them immune from consequences.
@@BourbonRealTalk i had to rewatch the video and i thank you for bringing up some really interesting points. didnt realize how much fireball grew and how fast. induction' is very illegal for sure as it should be. i agree with you that capitalism means they can charge whatever they want, if they arent fair the customer will never return.
Just went into a store near me today that had 4 bottles of Elijah Craig 18. (2) 2020 releases, (1) 2021 release, and (1) 2022 release. When I asked the clerk why he had so many he replied they just weren't selling. Apparently his store is in a low budget area. So then I said maybe you should consider lowering the price on them because you're literally 3 times over the retail price on each bottle. All I got was a deer in the headlight look. Capitalism my ass, it's total greed that's driving this. You cannot convince me otherwise
In his case I am not sure if it is greed, but definitely sounds like stupidity. He paid around $120 per bottle give or take. If he is sitting on them for years trying to get $450-$600 his just isn't using his head.
An interesting corollary is the sneaker market has had all of these issues, for a slightly longer time than bourbon. And because most sneaker purchases can be made online, the resellers are more sophisticated, using bots to purchase the most coveted sneakers.
I think someone else brought up sneakers in the comments before. The main reason I have a problem with price gouging is because one business had the ability to damage the brand of another business, and the damaged business is powerless by law to stop it...in the spirits industry. For sneakers the manufacturer could just not sell to those retail stores in the future. That is illegal for spirits producers.
@@BourbonRealTalk The problem is, with the sneaker industry the resellers buy ALL OR MOST of the stock from the retailers and THEN mark the prices up to something astronomical. Which means the average connneseiur is S.O.L.
My go to store puts it's allocated bottles right there on the shelf at MSRP give or take a buck or two. I mean the buyer watches you through a one way mirror, but hey!
Capitalism leads to greed. Human nature is a hell of a beast. Monopolies are greed. When you are the only, then you can be as greedy as you want. Its like when people say socialism leads to dictatorship. Both are terrible when they've gone far enough.
Randy thankyou for the video. But yamazki might not be everybody. How did you like it!! I love yamazaki 12 when they teased back in 2015-2016. I acquired the 12 bottles
It is complicated. This piece was not one I could just google and get all the information. It actually took me years to talking with people in the industry to put together all the pieces.
Enjoyed then information! All the info compacted into a quick video. Another thing that may affect some markets. Taxes. Washington State is 20+% + a liter tax. One adjacent state, no tax. Both state run still. 3 wide range of prices... costs. I do like the analysis of the market. Thanks.
@@dada191 not often enough! I have a neighbor who goes to Idaho a lot, and they'll mule back if it's on my list. I got a lot in Oregon too. Thing is, hard to find and by some definition, expensive, hard to find there too, so no guarantee. Really, it's loading up on the higher priced but common bottles that make it worth the trip. Rare if found, a bonus.
Large retailers use these brands as loss leaders. And it would not net them that much in the grand scheme of things to raise prices to market appropriate prices because they care about floor space and turnaround times. They use these products the same way that the manufacturers do just to us.
Great video! The stores that don't do this are few and far between. Luckily, I found one when vacationing in FL, bottle of weller special reserve for 21.99! In MI that bottle ranges from 50-100
Last night I paid $19.99 for Buffalo Trace in FL. You can imagine where I’m shopping from now on. They easily could have doubled that. They didn’t. They did limit 1 bottle per customer. I can live with that.
I can get BT on the shelf at any number of stores here. The store in FL were I got the weller said they only did 1 bottle as well, either BT or Weller. I was shocked that BT was only 1 bottle.
One more item: a potential reason the gov't created the three tier system...taxes. With three tiers, the gov't gets even more taxes = Company A's revenues are taxed. Company B the middlemen/suppliers' revenues are also taxed. And then Company C bars/retailers' revenues are ALSO taxed. Just a thought.
Solid point, but the govt could lower their regulatory burden and just change the tax rates while at the same time releasing the full capitalistic abilities of those in the liquor industry which would increase revenue and taxes without even changing the tax rates. IMO.
@@BourbonRealTalk Agreed. If our gov't leaders were educated and long-term minded...we'd be in a whole new world; but we can still hope and dreams...and vote accordingly.
It seemed to me that many of the people commenting on the FB group had not watched the full video and just reacted to the title. What you talked about in this video made a lot of sense to me.
Thanks for the video. How is the best way to get weller on the secondary market? I only hv one store that gets it around me and they always raffle it off. I’d rather just pay the secondary price instead of keep getting these raffle tickets. Any help will be much appreciated
great vid! but regarding your comment about the weller full proof, it isn't the same as cask strength or barrel proof, its returned to the proof it entered the barrel as opposed to barrel strength being how it exited the barrel.
Sorry about that. I have whole videos on the difference between cask strength, barrel proof, barrel strength, and full proof, but if you record enough you will have a miscommunication. Cheers!
This video is informative on another level. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Call it “Old Stank” and no one will by it..
Is it Capitaliism,or just plain hype?
@@mikedubs9940 There is nothing wrong with bourbon pricing. Period. I love how people think capitalism is the problem. Really? Think the shelves are running over with Blanton's in Venezuela? I used to drink Frogs Leap wine. It was cheap and tasted good. Then one day some schmuck that works for a wine magazine ranked it as a 92, prices sky rocketed and I haven't bought since (to your hype)
Marketing into the retail environment has involved a “buy this from me & I’ll take care of you”-mindset from day one on a distributor level. Stocking requirements & shelf-placement is the backbone driving floorplans across the country. Not just alcohol- Coca Cola Company v. Pepsico is a classic example. Competition on counters & window-display placement of products are all negotiable based on the inherent value of retail visibility.
The games played across the board are many & ultimately tiresome.
Truth
This is great explanation on how the whiskey/liquor market really works. I honestly think the people at Buffalo Trace/Sazerac talk out of both sides of their mouth. On one side they say, they aren’t raising prices to appease potential buyers, but on the other side they love the secondary market because they love bullying liquor stores into selling their crappy high margin booze (Fireball, etc). I think your ideas about capitalism are a bit pie in the sky. True capitalism is selling your product for whatever the market will tolerate. It doesn’t really care if it’s a sophisticated purchaser or, for lack of better term, a sucker. There is no moral compass for capitalism other than self interest and profit. That’s why there is regulation and over sight.
I think listening to the full podcast would reveal that BT is powerless to fix this problem today. They would have needed a time machine. The question isn't could the fix the problem with more product, the question is why don't they fix the problem by raising prices and taking profits. If they are the evil corporation that everyone says they are why are they letting flippers and unscrupulous liquor store owners make THEIR MONEY?
@@BourbonRealTalk I chatted with an online retailer recently and asked if he felt the least bit guilty for charging double for a Booker’s (knowing darn well he didn’t). But what I didn’t expect was that he said Jim Beam made him buy about $10K worth of other Beam booze he didn’t need in order to get the Booker’s. Who knows if that’s actually true, but quite interesting if it is and offers more insight to the consumer/screw-ee.
@@yanksrule311 We discuss this business tactic in the video. It is technically illegal and the legal term is called an Inducement. It can be a bit of grey area. It isn't Jim Beam doing it, but Jim Beams state wholesaler. The rep comes in and says, "Hey, I would love to get you some Bookers, but we are reserving those for our best Jim Beam customers. You just don't sell that much volume". This is technically legal. Once the rep says "To get at that level you will need to sell X amount of Y products", then it becomes illegal. It happens in one way or another to literally ever independent liquor store owner I have ever talked to.
Sir, you are 100% correct about the loved one buying the overpriced bourbon. My wife tends to do that on occasion since shes always seeking something new and popular for me. We stopped by the store that she usually buys from last week. On the shelf were 10 bottles of EHT Small Batch with a price tag of $94.99. WSR was $54.99 ECBP was $95. The owner clearly knows the "popular" stuff and is charging a ridiculous amount for them. However, the standard stuff was normal pricing.
After discussions with my wife about how they were charging triple retail price and how outrageous that is, she goes on to say "wow, I would have bought it and not known any better". I can only imagine how much they ripped her off over the years while she thought she was doing me a favor buying hard to find bourbons. Meanwhile the owner was completely taking advantage of her and other wives looking to buy a nice bottle for their significant others.
That is my fear with the over priced stores.
I have found so many whiekies I like for reasonable prices, I can't force myself to pay more that about $80 for a bottle, usually closer to $50. For single malt, my cutoff price is about $110. For my tasting ability, that's where my ROI starts to drop off pretty fast.
That is a solid strategy. No need to spend a bunch of money to have a nice pour.
The eye opening was that the Papy won an award because they were 2% better on over all flavor. Now it's 700% over MSPR. That's a pricey 2%
I think you brought up some really good points regarding this subject and were able to explain very eloquently. At the end of the day I can understand a bit of a markup from retailers on the hottest items in the market but some of these prices are just insane.
Exactly! I do not want anyone who is ill informed to be taken advantage of.
I literally just had a conversation at a store in California yesterday on this exact topic. What happens here is the distributors leverage the store to take on more inventory of other products if they want to get of the allocated bottles. They will add up to an additional 1k of inventory just to get a couple of Weller bottles. The other thing I'm curious about is why the producers send product to distributors in countries that do not typically consume bourbon in any kind of volume. I have friends who travel to Canada and they send me pictures of highly sought after bottles that are on their shelves 10 bottles deep with dust on them. Why don't they send more of that to the states where it is clearly in demand?
The specific situation where rare bottles are collecting dust isn't happening anywhere in the world anymore. It was happening at the beginning of the inventory crunch, but not now. The reason why they are still shipping to foreign markets when demand in the US is so high is because the US almost let bourbon become a thing of the past in the 70-90s. Foreign markets kept bourbon alive. Now they have enough demand to sell all they have hear, but can not let foreign markets die for two reasons. One, they don't know if the USA will turn their backs on bourbon again. Two, they all have invested literally billions in increasing capacity, and without foreign market growth they will all go bankrupt when capacity comes online if it doesn't sell.
My interest in Bourbon is new, and mostly casual. I’m learning about this allocation and gouging stuff.
I’ve spent most of my adult life interested in wine, and while you don’t quite see the same thing there, what I did learn over the years is a $45 bottle of Oregon Pinot Noir is just as good as a $1,300 bottle of Grand Cru Burgundy. Essentially what I’m saying is unless you’re extreme into this hobby, I’m guessing that your first sip of a $1,300 bottle of bourbon is going to quickly fade to the disappointment of realizing it’s only marginally better, if at all, than a $45 to $60 bottle of bourbon. Correct me if I’m wrong. I just don’t feel the temptation to chase a bottle of VanWinkle only to learn that lesson again.
Literally why I got into bourbon. I used to collect wine. I acquired a bottle of 1983 Chateau Petrus and kept it for years. I finally opened it, drank it with a friend in about 45 min, and never bought another expensive bottle of wine. I like to share, and wine does not last long enough after you open it for it to truly be something you share. I switched to whiskey and buy a lot of hard to find bottles to have the experience of drinking them with someone who would not otherwise have a chance to try them.
@@BourbonRealTalk you’re a good friend! Greetings from ATX.
Your Exactly correct, I chose plain bottled 'Buffalo Trace' over "Pappy van winkle 15yr" in a blind tasting.. I was taken aback to say the least. The Buffalo trace was 30 dollars a bottle and the pappy was 2,700 however I did prefer the nose of the Pappy over the Buffalo, very strange.
Personally I think you are exactly right.And people that by the fireball stuff,should just eat that candy “Atomic fire balls”and drink Jim Beam on top…be the perfect burn..Going in,and comin out..
So true
Wow! I feel like I just took a college level class in whiskey! Excellent content. And this is shameful, but it was Fireball that got me into serious whiskeys. I drank enough of that stuff i should qualify for Pappy at suggested retail!
Thanks, and that is hilarious!
What works for me is after a few visits I tell the owner to sell me something allocated at a fair price and I will buy a few bottles of the things that don’t move. End up using them for mixes and cocktails.
That is a good plan. Lines up with the idea of helping the store accomplish their goals.
Randy, truly appreciate the time and effort you and your team put into these videos and all the research that goes into it. Class act. Not to mention the fact you take time to reply to every comment.. even butt heads. Thank you for being you, brother. Look forward to consuming more content and growing my 🥃 knowledge with folks like you 👌🏼 keep it up. Oh and that Goat is amazing as well 🙌🏼 thanks for keeping those prices straight.
Appreciate it. I have been getting pretty beat up in the comments the last few days, so I needed that. Glad you like the The Prideful Goat. If we ever get together in person I will tell you the 3 book series drama of keeping the prices straight 😂
This video brings back fond memories of having to make the hard decision of Weller S.R for 20, Weller 107 for 30 or Weller 12 for 45. The 107 usually won :)
Same! That was my daily before it went on allocation.
Id still pick the 107 if all were in front of me
Wow! As a noob getting into Bourbon, I'm finding your channel more than informational, which is certainly good. Pointedly, I think you may need to change your channel name to "The Professor of Bourbon". Thanks again for the great info and reviews, and of course the love!
That moniker is taken by the legendary Bernie Lubbers, but thank you!
I think Bourbon Real Talk is spot on. I love the business acumen and logic being applied. I also enjoyed the talk you had about sourced bourbon. I would love to hear your analysis and views about where this is going now that a certain Indiana based distiller has bought Luxco and most likely will be acquiring other brands.
One correction I would make is that Sazerac (who owns Buffalo Trace) is not a publicly traded company as you mentioned. They are a privately owned corporation.
You are correct sir! I was informed of that fact by the owner of the label company that prints their labels on Monday. I was ignorant of that fact until then. I am sorry for my error.
@@BourbonRealTalk Other than that I think everything was excellent!
I work in the liquor industry and skateboard industry that has me laughing when flippers get their greedy hands on stuff then jack the prices up. I work for a large company in TX but have spoken to mom/pop shops who have been strongarmed to carry a ton of Fireball to get a couple bottles of the good stuff, Nike is the same way with their SB shoes for skate shops which is why we do not carry skate shoes in our shop. Great video!
At least with the shoe shot you can choose not do buy Nike. They liquor stores still have to deal with the wholesaler because they get so much of their inventory from them.
I'm really enjoying your videos. Every liquor store in Southern California does this. Either it's marked up 300% of MSRP, or they make you buy bottles in a bundle. One of the liquor stores I used to frequent quite often, was supposedly the #1 pusher of all Sazerac products in Southern California, would make you buy bundles to get one allocated bottle. I did get my bottle of Weller's Full Proof for $100, but I had to buy 1 Buffalo Trace, 1 Larceny and 1 Brothers Bond. Or they sell a bottle of Blanton's or Stagg Jr for $200, but if you wanted to get it for MSRP $60, you had to buy 2 bottles of BT and 2 bottles of Sazerac Rye. And the sales clerk told me exactly what you said, if they can push certain products, they will be guarantee more allocated bottles from the distributor because that's where they make their money from.
Frustrating, but as a business person I understand. Cheers!
I discovered the channel only a few weeks ago, and this video is one of the best reasons in a long time to subscribe to a channel.
Thanks for the history lesson, I enjoyed that. Whether your concrete theory or interpretation is correct or not - for me, it makes sense at least -
is not even crucial. Some mentioned infos, I've never heard, and they explain or make comprehensible a lot. That triggers me a bit to inform myself,
how things are working on the international level. I'm from Germany, the 3-tier system doesn not exist in Europe as far as I know. Good work man!
Yay! A German watcher! So glad you enjoyed.
Great video - great point about loved ones…Ive specifically told my wife, Dad and sister not to buy some of these crazy priced bottles for me. My Dad first bought me Blantons several years ago for $50-$60 and Ive told them not to pay the $150+ that many stores try to sell it for.
That is the biggest thing. I don't want loved ones to get "burned" by my love for whiskey.
Dude this is the coolest most educational video of whiskey I think I've watched
Thank you!
Went to Buffalo Trace Distillery last week and purchased Buffalo Trace for $27 and Blantons for $68. Then went to Nashville for a concert and stopped in a liquor store close to the hotel… they were selling BT for $100 and Blantons for $230.
A local retailer in my area does this same mark up game. Funny thing is, all those bottles don’t sell. We call them a whiskey museum. There they are, 3 or more year old releases, dusty, just sitting. What aggravates me, is when a customer comes in, finds a not so well known whiskey and buys it. Only to find that the next time he goes to purchase another one, the retailer has marked it up another $10-$20. And will continue to do so, until you just walk. What kind of business model is that ? I no longer purchase high end product from that store. So basically the greedy store lost a good customer. Something else I noticed about this same retailer, he will actually buy high end product at a local grocery store ( which sells it at MSRP ) and sell it at his liquor store at double the price or more. I actually saw him do it with a rare Japanese whisky, bought every damn bottle. It’s insanity. Thanks for the great content !
That is illegal in most states. All bottles in a retail establishment are supposed to come from a wholesaler and not another retailer in most states.
Such an eloquent way of explaining the inflated prices of bourbon in today’s market. I will also add that while it’s true that the distillers aren’t necessarily withholding inventory to limit the supply, I’ve heard that distributors hold on to inventory at warehouses. I think local reps also play the game, and manipulate small retail stores by requiring them to move inventory (like fireball or Wheatley vodka) just to receive a few bottles of Weller or any other Buffalo “Chase” products. So that’s also a big reason why retail shops jack up the prices. Because they have to make up the cost of the 80 cases of Fireball they had to buy just to get the one bottle of George T Stagg.
I know this to be true because the last few allocated bottles I have gotten at retail at the end of the year were not that year's release. Old inventory they had not doubt to reward key accounts that they decided to get out of the warehouse after a couple of years.
We tried to tour Buffalo Trace. Covid restricted the tour sizes. Tickets were online only. We were able to visit the Company Store. There was no Bourbon available for sale. They had even taken all bottles from gift sets to help customers get product. It is a nice place to visit. Bourbon Trail tours are on our to do list this year.
Covid has stopped a lot of people from having a full experience in KY, but hopefully it gets better soon.
Love the pod.. I'm in Australia.. we have no nope.. no stock, no allocations of over priced hooch, no scale or buying power & we have a huge tax on booze to boot.. plus don't forget the cost of transit.. we pay approx. $130 for a bottle of hooch that's probs $50 in US&A.. we sadly probs a 3rd or 4th tier market from an allocation / buying power POV.. not a global centre of Bourbon sales, events or buying power.. 😥
Thank you for the view from Australia. Sorry to hear bourbon is so hard to come by. On a positive note, I used to drink wine. I couldn't afford all the great wines I wanted to drink so I would buy common wines, but I would research everything I could before I opened it, I would adjust the temp to the perfect serving temp, I would decant it, and some how it made it taste better. I think that if bourbon is that hard to come buy you brain may enjoy it that much more when you do get it...at least I hope that is the case. Cheers!
@@BourbonRealTalk well.. yes we are spoilt with wine! We do get some bourbon BUT some the lovely drops you mention at $100 are $400-500 over here & near impossible to find.. maybe we should do an exchange? Lols. Love the vlog. Safe travs.
Good History, good point of view. The same is happening in the luxury watch market right now. limited supply pricing people out. The ADs are now withholding product to certain account managers/vendors. Eventually the market corrects itself as the consumer decides what to do with their hard earned money.
The big difference is the watch companies can change who they sell to, or go direct to consumer. In whiskey the producers do not have that free market right, so it makes these problems harder to fix.
The store I get my buffalo trace, blanton's, and occasionally Taylor and Weller from has been increasing their inventory and one of the first things I noticed before this all happened was a Fireball fridge that was put in next to the checkout
Inducements are real. If you bring it up to the manager/owner, it will show them you understand their situation and possibly help you be the one they let buy the good bottles.
Liquor store must order a lot of stock to "earn" those items
At some sneaker drops, the retailer is making the buyer put on the shoes and walk out of the store in them. It helps tear down the resale market as it’s now “used” and loses value.
If they really wanted to end the bourbon secondary market, they would just make people open the bottle before they walk out of the store.
End of the day, it goes both ways and retailers will continue to gouge as long as consumers are willing to pay those prices.
I do recommend offering to open your bottle in store, but in some state it is illegal.
Man this is fascinating.. i realize this exact thing is going on at my local B and M. I feel a certain level of compassion for the guy who has been selling this merchandise a little high up.. he packages the desired bottle with a lesser known as part of deal for buying from him. I figure on a narrow margin. Great vid.
It is a difficult problem to solve. I don't mind bundles, raffles, or points systems. I do mind when a store decides who gets the bottle by who is willing to pay the most, that damages the brand. Plus, it is just lazy. Take the time to get to know your customers and use those bottles to incentivize behavior that will help your store be more profitable.
Great job as always. Appreciate your insights. It really is a shame when someone gets “taken” by an unscrupulous retailer. As for me, I will not pay more than double what the Msrp is, and only then, on something very, very allocated! And then, I’m drinking it with some special friends!
That is a solid plan. I base the top end of my price range off of secondary and not MSRP, but as long as you have a plan to make sure you are comfortable with your purchases that is good enough for me.
Very well done. With small craft whiskey coming into their own you can find hidden gems from a local distillery. You can follow the growth of a new brand. Visit the distillery and buy direct.
Could not agree more!
Stumbled across this video and I'm really glad that I did. Very informative and really enjoyed the information you shared. Much of it I already knew but I found some of it very interesting. I look forward to watching more of your content.
Glad it was helpful!
My lord this video answered every question I have had about pappi, buffalo trace, allocation and what the future holds.
Thanks!
I aim to please. Subscribe and I will do my best to keep the useful videos coming.
I’m a newbie to bourbon and have enjoyed your videos immensely. I’ve just started my collection with a five bottle line up of Eagle Rare, Calumet 15 year, Blanton’s, Weller Special Reserve, and Four Roses Special Reserve Single Barrel. The Eagle Rare is great for making an old fashion. I don’t think I’m developed enough to appreciate the Calumet. I’ve held off on opening the Blanton’s and Weller so far. The Four Roses is a different story…it has blown me away, and makes a nice sipping, neat of course, spirit after a long day,.
Don't be afraid to open the Blanton's and WSR. They are not going to degrade before you drink them. I think having a diverse line up of bottles and trying them side by side is a great way to develop your palate and see what you like. 4R is high rye, so you might explore that. Try an Old Grand Dad BiB or 114. Pick up a Bulliet and see if you like it. Also high rye with very similar distillation techniques as 4R (the two companies histories are intertwined). Try a Russel's rye or Knob Creek rye. Cheers!
@@BourbonRealTalk Thanks for the feedback, really excited about getting deeper into the bourbon game. Love the channel and the presentation, really good for someone wanting to learn with an open mind.
My retail theory is as follows; the stores that get there 3-6 bottles of GTS or pappy, or whatever, don’t really want to sell them. It’s not like those bottles are lots of overhead so they can sit around for when the taters call up asking for pappy, the shop owner can say “yup I have a bottle”. Tater runs down there sees price and balks, but does he leave empty handed? Nope, shop owner “suggests” his high margin spirit and if super tater comes in has to have that pappy juice to impress is bros, then shop guy is happy to sell him that bottle for $2k.
Good vid, thanks for laying it out there for the noobs to understand why we’re all being jacked around. There’s plenty of good bourbon out there at retail folks, don’t pay 10x for those unicorn bottles.
That may be the logic, but I have seen more high volume purchasers swear to never spend a penny in a store that gouges than I have seen taters picking up daily drinkers. My argument to the store is to use those few bottles to reward behavior you want to see more of, not to chase away the volume business that keeps your doors open.
I was in the retail biz….starting about 1990, and for the next roughly 20 years, thru that time saw the release of eagle rare and no one wanted it, Forrester was a brand no one really purchased, I’d sell 20 cases JD, to one bottle of forester.
Turkey…maybe a case a month, 114 a bottle a month.
Point is this has evolved out of nowhere.
No one really purchased Evan Williams.
I was around for the rollouts of Sky, Amsterdam, etc…..
What will be “the category” in another 10 years????
If you "know" that, you should move to wall street ASAP 😂
You’re right about Fireball. A store owner told me that he has to have perfect Fireball sales in order to get allocated stuff.
I have heard that from many sources.
Just stumbled on this episode, so on point. Completely agree, BT are solving the secondary with supply and not via pricing, it’s a long game but a great legacy builder. Great video.
Welcome aboard! Thank you for supporting the channel.
I’ve learned so much about Bourbon from your channel. Great job!
Glad to hear it!
Really enjoying these videos sir. My guess is, as long as the 3 tier system is in place, retailers will continue to price these up high. As you have mentioned in other videos, these stores deal with a lot of stress and hassle over these bottles regardless of whether they price them low or high. Thanks for the information.
Great point! I hope we get direct to consumer shipping, but I doubt any of the legacy distilleries would take advantage for fear of messing up a good thing.
Truly enjoyed this explanation of the pricing issue. It affects anyone who enjoys just about any bourbon beyond well drink level.
It’s kind of the Wild West here in L.A. While the chain retailers typically charge SRP (Total Wine, BevMo), the supplies disappear almost immediately. Inventory is slim and thinly distributed throughout the system. The big box stores (Costco) graciously offer discounts even on higher demand juice (e.g., Calumet 15 @$98, Barrell Seagrass and Dovetail @ $70 and $65, Knob Creek 12 @$56). Some retailers have websites that offer real time inventory on their stocks and offer at or near SRP (K&L) but the “bots” scoop up all of the precious few allocated bottles before any average customer can. K&L also will set aside super-allocated bottles like BTAC and offer those at SRP only to their frequent customers.
The “small business-owned” liquor shops will mark up ~40-50%>SRP (ECBP @$100) or close to or at secondary market prices. EH Taylor Single Barrel ~$250? Old Carter for $300+? Those bottles sit on the shelves collecting dust. I’d think that Inventory that sits and takes up shelf space is not a wise business decision for a retailer but that’s just me.
The bourbon supplies in general will eventually reach at or near equilibrium with demand one day - I’m betting within the next four to six years. There’s far too much money being left on the table.
It will happen eventually! Thanks for watching!
Great info. Made me feel better about not getting anything allocated yesterday when it all dropped. I saw people in a Facebook group getting raked over the coals, and now I have a better u derstanfing of why
Glad I could help you feel better. My year has not gone as well as expected for allocated items, so I feel your pain.
I have pretty much stopped drinking/purchasing bourbon because of the wacked out pricing. My tastes now seem to run towards several scotch distillers. The nice thing about it is these are not price gouged and are easily purchased. So, I have been able to move on and enjoy the choices I have.
The scotch industry has been adjusting pricing to market value for decades. Bourbon has not, and it has resulting in some wacky pricing by stores and the secondary compared to MSRP. I still think shelf bourbons represent a relative value compared to scotch.
I’ve watched a handful of your videos now and I like you message. This was a great long for explainer on some of the industry inside baseball. Thanks for the content.
Glad it was helpful!
JUST A FANTASTIC VIDEO. best discussion on Secondary ive seen.
Wow, thank you!
At 16:00, the actual role of the tier system was to control the entire supply chain and ensure excise tax collection. It continues to be sold as a “protection measure” against downward pricing pressure as you say; however, in practice it’s now become protection for the distributors given the large amount of industry consolidation (i.e. Southern Glazers).
Agreed! We will see if Sazerac's recent moves will open the door for change.
Blew my mind with the power of the influence of the Pappy brand on Fireball and others for Sazerac. I think the price gouging also takes advantage of whiskey novices who don't know about or have access to the secondary market, and have heard of but never seen a bottle of Weller Full Proof, GTS, etc., and freak out and buy it if they can even remotely afford it.
Solid point. I have saved some whiskey people from this. Not at 18X msrp, but at above secondary.
I wonder how often that happens, and the person doesn’t even like the product? Just from the hype of it being rare, and influencers telling them how good it is.
@@rockinpranch8173 If you drink enough whiskey you come to the conclusion the the flavor difference between the rarest bottle and a solid drinker is NOT worth the money the rare bottles cost on secondary, so I think this must be happening some or the stores would not be pricing the bottles this way.
This video should be called "Bourbon School" Great content.
Thank you so much!
There is a store near me in Las Vegas as of Friday April 2 2021, had that Full Proof Weller for that Exact same price.
Wow! I sure hope no one buys them that doesn't know their true value.
Ahhhh... Marketing and Capitalism 101.
Great analysis of the game.
Thanks
Randy this is an excellent video. It should be the de facto video to explain the inflated prices to all whiskey enthusiasts.
Glad you liked it. Luckily a lot of people have seen it!
How do I find what I should pay and where to buy for that price? Is there a resource for that info?
TBH all I do is type in the brand name and MSRP into google. 9/10 times the suggested retail price pops up first in the search results.
I don’t know of any retailer in my area that sells their bourbon whiskey for retail price. I think one of the reasons why the secondary market is so high is because the retailers are realizing that there’s more money out there and so they’re raising the price to exaggerated levels and the average person like myself can’t buy it. But the guy looking to make $500 on it will buy it and sell it on the secondary market. So between the retailers price gouging and the secondary market hooligans who probably don’t even drink it they’re closing the market to the people who really do enjoy the bourbon. My local retailer said he had some pappy coming in and it was $1000 for a bottle that’s the retailer. So needless to say I’ve never had any pappy and probably never will.
The bigger stores typically sell at MSRP in my area. The market will stabilize, but it will be years before it happens. Get involved in the whiskey community and you will get to try all kinds of bourbon that are hard to find. Someone Say Whiskey is a good start. Plenty of free sample giveaways on there. I would look for a local club too. Cheers!
Interesting story. This weekend I went to my local liquor store that I've been going to for around 4 years. I normally buy Elijah Craig and Four Roses. They had Eagle Rare 10 there for $65 and Heaven Hill bonded for $55. I said why not and bought both. After paying for them I asked the owner if he ever got regular BT. He got a big smile on his face and asked if I wanted some. Like he was a drug dealer with some special drug lol. I said sure and he just gave me a bottle of BT for $22. I despise the huge markups that some of the online stores charge, making a $50-60 bottle 10-15 times retail. But if a local small business wants to charge reasonably more for the allocated stuff, 25-50% higher, I'm ok with it.
That is a great attitude and it is obvious that your local appreciates it.
Well said. I believe it is greed. A $69 bottle for $189? Greed....as they get minimal allocated amount of bottles to make a dent to their bottom line on an annualized basis.
They should get the allocated bottles and sell one allocated bottle per customer while supplies last.
I personally do not patronize stores that sell allocated bourbons at Sky high prices.
Thanks!
great video man ,, don't know about you but when i see a retail liquor store mark up a bottle like that i just go somewhere else. that is just BS .. some places do a lotto or some other way to get your favorite bottle ,, and that's cool because they still sell it at MSRP. and thank you buffalo trace for not raising prices so everyone can enjoy your great products...!!
Thanks! I do the same thing. No reason to try to form a relationship with my local store if the benefit is me giving them my money for something I could get anywhere else. I need to spend my money where it will benefit the store and me.
Inducements ABSOLUTELY still exist.
In the past 6 months I've been to 11 states (NC, SC, TN, KY, GA, FL, VA, WV, MD, PA, and NY) whiskey hunting, probably 200+ stores. Especially in non- ABC (state controlled) states, the distribution system is incredibly corrupt.
In talking to dozens of owners, I've found that South Carolina is one of the worst. You will almost never find allocated product in the state, at any price. I've had owners tell me that the wholesaler will promise x cases of Blanton's if they buy 20 cases of Jim Beam Black, and when delivery day comes the Blanton's mysteriously isn't on the truck and there's nothing they can do.
From a business standpoint (I have my MBA), the whiskey industry is fascinating....and frustrating.
If I said something that made it sound like inducements don't exist I did not mean to. They are absolutely happening now. So frustrating for the small retail stores being pressured to buy product they don't have customers for just so they don't lose their whiskey regulars that are paying the bills. Thanks for watching.
The store manager should have declined the order. Tell them to put it back on the truck and bring it back when they have the Blantons with them
Well, I don't say this very often, but I absolutely and completely agree with your very well-reasoned and informed opinion. Thanks for sharing this with those who haven't yet taken the time to research this topic. Cheers!
Thank you! You try but you never know how it will be received and this is so encouraging! I appreciate the support.
Great video! I recently purchased the weller single barrel, weller full proof and George T Stagg for $200 at a local liquor store!
Congrats! Hope you enjoy. Those are some good prices!
@@BourbonRealTalk I live in Oregon, prices are always good! Stagg is awesome, haven’t hade the others yet.
This has got to be the best Bourbon information videos I have ever seen. Thank you so much...Cheers
Wow, thanks! Thank you for supporting the channel!
I'm on the fence here. I took Micro and Macro Economics in college. I would love to be in the board room of these large producers throwing up what if charts. I know the only purpose of a publicly traded corporation is to maximize shareholder profitability. How that is done, well some do it good and some go to bankruptcy. I think the retailers operate more on gut instinct and want to get as much profit as they can on every bottle. The ones that do it right, stay in business. The ones that do it wrong go out of business at some time. I do respect the retailers because most of them are putting up their own assets. I don't look it as greed but maximizing the return on what they put in the business.
I agree. My only issue is the 3 tier laws make it so one business's decisions can affect another business, and there is nothing the affected business can do about it.
I bought my Weller full proof at $59. I found an honest retailer and stuck with him. I feel so bad for people who are taken advantage of. Just today I bought a Weller special reserve 1.75L bottle for $42, and two weeks before saw the 750ml bottle going for $150 in a liquor store in north Texas. It made me sick to see it. I don’t know what to make of that…
That is why I hope this video and other's like it help people avoid buying something not knowing what it should be sold for.
And WSR being sold above retails is crazy. It is on every shelf of every large liquor store most of the time. It isn't even hard to find here. Hope no one gets taken advantage of. Cheers!
@@BourbonRealTalk Thank you so much for this video. It was very informative and I agree with you 100%.
A lot of this has to do with wether it is an open state or a control state. In an open state you purchase directly from a broker, they control distribution. In a control state the alcohol beverage control division will have a major say in that ends up where.
States don’t like retailers sticking a bottle in a lock box with an eye watering price on it because Sazarac doesn’t like that and it can affect a state’s allocation. So most rare bottle sales are done quietly out of sight. People blame speculators for driving up the prices but without buyers who will shell out $1500 for a George T Stagg there wouldn’t be any speculators. I was a liquor rep for over 14 years and it took a while to get used to this rare bourbon craziness. Most of the reps I know, along with myself, thought this was a fad because how many customers would pay these kind of prices? Turns out a bunch will and there’s no end in sight. I can’t possibly explain how crazy it is to remember when it was common for a store to take a month to sell a case of 3 Pappys to seeing them quietly get sold for 10 times their suggested retail. And the buyers are happy to pay it. There was a time when having a Cuban or an Opus XX in your humidor impressed your friends, now it’s having a rare Weller on your back bar.
Truth
Love the last point you made about a possible none whiskey enthusiast buying a bottle extremely overpriced for someone else as a gift! Never thought of it that way but I can see that happening more than one thinks!
Thank you for watching the video and for your comment. Yes, it's important to consider that some people might be buying overpriced bourbon as gifts without realizing the true value of the bottle. It's a good reminder to always do your research before making a purchase. Have you ever bought a bottle of bourbon as a gift?
same thing happens with some cigars. Look no further than Fuente Opus X. a $10 Power Ranger will cost $50+ online or through various retailers. While some of the other sizes will cost close to $90. Most people wouldn't know any better and just assume it's an expensive cigar. It always grinds my gears when retailers are charging an outrageous price for something. I understand a markup, perhaps a heavy one but charging 2-3x plus retail is just greed.
as for secondary market. That's just it. You're seeing an artificially inflated demand due to resellers. The internet has made it too easy for gougers to flip sought after products. Look at new tech such as consoles, graphics cards when there's a big leap, etc. When a new Playstation or Xbox drops resellers and scalpers are selling them for over twice retail. We saw people and groups using bots to buy 40 to hundreds+ with the sole intent of flipping. For how great the internet is this is just another example of how being online has corrupted and ruined us.
At least with cigars the producers have the power to sell to who they want and change practices if someone is mishandling their products.
Wow! I am a new whiskey enthusiast. This is such great analysis and information. Thank you so much! I started learning about whiskey about a couple of months ago and already learned so much from people like you. Please keep up the good work. I have not gone over all your videos or podcast, but I have noticed in my experience so far that it is difficult to hunt allocated bottles in my area without knowing the shop owner. I also don't want to buy many unnecessary bottles to make them think I am a valued customer that they should be my friend. But I am sure there are some tips or middle ground to build that relationship. If you haven't made a topic on that, I would love to hear your thoughts.
So glad to have you as a viewer. Here is a video I did on that subject:
th-cam.com/video/YqjctB9mb2A/w-d-xo.html
The Balvenie 30 spoken about was up the street from where I live in Plano TX at Total Wine that has a lot of bottles that has some of us wondering where they get those prices. Then again, the area where I live has a Tesla/McLaren/911/etc where no one cares what they spend in order to impress others...not me.
Wow
Great information, the Chicago market is very difficult to find anything Weller, Buffalo Trace itself is getting harder to find.
BT is on allocation in TX
Saint Louis is the same bt is allocated but easily findable any weller is marked up alot though
I am a liquor store owner & you’re right on point. The way the 2nd tier makes us buy all the stuff we don’t need, to get those so called “allocated products” is really criminal. At this point it’s getting even worse with regular products! They push so many products that no one will ever buy and waste shelf space, which is causing the increase in prices. Don’t get me started on the secondary market! They buy all the allocations and sell them at a crazy high price & expect the retailers to keep their prices low. So here every retailer is stuck with products that won’t sell and it hurts business!
The solution is direct to consumer sales and shipping. The 3/4 tier system does NOT work for small producers. This is American, and if someone wants to start a distillery they should be allowed to do so if they follow the law. The problem is they have to sell through a wholesaler and the wholesaler to a retailer. There are too many small distilleries for liquor stores to put all the products on the shelves. This puts retailers in a position here they are expected to carry products that have little to no buyers. That producer should be able to succeed or fail on their own without dragging a retailer into it, and when they get big enough that they have customers THEN go through the 3 tier system. This is the way it will be in the future, but the wholesale lobbyist are TOO GREEDY AND STUPID to see that giving up their monopoly would actually help them in the long run. No more needing to give sales support to a shitty unknown brand...just focus on the winners and move volume.
@@BourbonRealTalk exactly my point 💯 the wholesalers are creating a fake shortage. For example let’s say you want a certain bottle they will have it but they show it’s out of stock or on hold. Then they sell the same product to the bigger chain stores like specs, twins & total wine. These big chain stores hoard products like Blanton’s. Which then creates a shortage and a craze to get these bottles. The secondary market kicks in and the the vicious circle of price increase begins. BTW love your channel
Correct, true capitalism is sustainable, and yet it does not guarantee that any one business has a monopoly on survivability. A major point why rules are placed into many business structures is because of the fear of monopolies which ruins competition and by definition the existence of the capitalistic spirit, which means you do actually need some regulation, especially to monitor behavior of everyone in the industry to try to provide someone's interpretation of what is best for the economy. That part of the control structure is constantly changing due to politics.
The control structure for spirits in the US sets up a monopoly in opposition to what is best for consumers. The problem is the laws have not changed in 90 years.
Excellent content and just the information I needed as I'm curious of/about US made whiskies, especially bourbons. As an everyday regular Joe living in Finland, good bourborns are really hard to find.
I hear the same thing from a lot of overseas viewers. The good news is the bourbons that do make it over are from major producers who do not make bad products. The downside is you don't get access to a much of the product that is highly sought after.
The astronomical mark up here in Kentucky where it is literally made is insane. Every store in the state is terrible. For example a local liquor store us. E.H.Taylor's msrp is $43. They are charging $180. It's insane.
That is insane. Luckily there are some stores around me that still sell at normal markup. The problem is all the whiskey lover's know it and we are all shopping at the same few stores.
Very well done - thanks for the info and take on this subject!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Dang, i always though the atore owner was just happy to have the bottle sitting on the shelf. I've never even thought about the intended buyer for a whiskey marked up 1,600% being a loved one.
Thankfully the large store I work at sells everything at regular retail. I would be ashamed to participate in such scamming. The bad news is we can hardly get any rare or allocated stuff at any price. If we do it goes to regular customers, not usually people who just walk in off the street.
As it should be...cheers!
Such incredible content. Thank you for sharing your bourbon knowledge.
Thank you for watching!
Inducements are still very real. As a restaurant manager, I can't get Papi, Stagg, Weller, etc. because I don't buy enough of the other Buffalo Trace products.
It is sad, but it happens.
Totally agree with everything. I have noticed Weller mostly go through the roof. It's funny the big stores can't even get any Weller cause they raised the price so much but I found a small store who gets 2 bottles a month and sells for MSRP! Yeah, I became good friends with that store :-)
I wish all stores would use the allocated bottles to form relationships with customers like you, instead of jacking up the price. I think they make more in the long run off of a solid relationship than they do off one overpriced bottle.
@@BourbonRealTalk agree! Just last night I saw Eagle Rare for 149.99!!!!
@@jasongass764 This is happening because the decision makers do not have access to secondary market data. They will google the bottle and find some illegal online retailer from overseas that is trying to sell the one bottle they have to an unsuspecting dupe and falsely assume that is the market value. The solution is to shop their regularly for some daily drinkers that are on the shelf (as long as their shelf prices are reasonable). Chat up the decision maker every time you are in their, but don't ask about the bottle you have your eye on. Then when you feel like you have good rapport show them a secondary market listing and explain you could have that bottle shipped to your house for that price, then ask them if they will sell it to you for something between MSRP and the secondary price. They will often do it because they see it as them still making a good profit off the bottle, but securing a relationship for the future.
@@BourbonRealTalk great advice. I believe this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship, glad I found you guys!
The problem with bourbon in VA is government employees give certain customers inside information. The bottles used to be scanned in prior to opening, but now they are not. People flip them for a ridiculous profit. I don't have any issue with private owners marking things up, that's their Prerogative
Control states can be a problem. Cheers!
Just found your channel and I'm hooked! Fantastic content. How do you not have 500k subs? Thank you for this!
Wow, thank you! It appears bourbon only channels cap out around 85K, but I am growing as fast as I can. If you want to get more involved I would like to invite you to our free member group. facebook.com/groups/bourbonrealtalkcommunity
This is truly a fantastic video, especially for some of us here in Europe who’s into scotch but have just begun getting into the bourbon world. Thanks 🙏
Yay! A European viewer! So glad you enjoyed it. I think next week's episode is Bourbon vs Scotch. You should check it out...it is going to be funny.
@@BourbonRealTalk yes all the way from Denmark 🇩🇰 I will definitely check out your next episode, sounds great 👍
Very informative....I am now a subscriber!
Welcome aboard! I would like to personally invite you to our free member community. facebook.com/groups/bourbonrealtalkcommunity
i have an idea for you, move to a state with ABC controlled distribution. you will find everything at msrp but its up to the state to decide what bottles they buy, in my state for example you never see weller at all unless its end of the year state lotto and its typically about 200 bottles for the entire state. trust me i'd much rather live in a state where they can order what they want and sell it for what they want instead of the ABC deciding what bottles to get and when to distribute them.
There are benefits and drawbacks to control states for sure. This video I was trying to explain that the problem is supply. If you are going to fix it with price it needs to go to the producer and not the retailer taking the additional money from all three/four tiers. Especially when you consider the producer knew they could have sold their product for more and didn't for strategic business reasons. In that environment a retailer raising the price hurts the producer and stupid antiquated laws make them immune from consequences.
@@BourbonRealTalk i had to rewatch the video and i thank you for bringing up some really interesting points. didnt realize how much fireball grew and how fast. induction' is very illegal for sure as it should be. i agree with you that capitalism means they can charge whatever they want, if they arent fair the customer will never return.
I prefer entertainment over education but this is a great video.
I like to try to teach while I entertain.
Just went into a store near me today that had 4 bottles of Elijah Craig 18. (2) 2020 releases, (1) 2021 release, and (1) 2022 release. When I asked the clerk why he had so many he replied they just weren't selling. Apparently his store is in a low budget area. So then I said maybe you should consider lowering the price on them because you're literally 3 times over the retail price on each bottle. All I got was a deer in the headlight look. Capitalism my ass, it's total greed that's driving this. You cannot convince me otherwise
In his case I am not sure if it is greed, but definitely sounds like stupidity. He paid around $120 per bottle give or take. If he is sitting on them for years trying to get $450-$600 his just isn't using his head.
An interesting corollary is the sneaker market has had all of these issues, for a slightly longer time than bourbon. And because most sneaker purchases can be made online, the resellers are more sophisticated, using bots to purchase the most coveted sneakers.
I think someone else brought up sneakers in the comments before. The main reason I have a problem with price gouging is because one business had the ability to damage the brand of another business, and the damaged business is powerless by law to stop it...in the spirits industry. For sneakers the manufacturer could just not sell to those retail stores in the future. That is illegal for spirits producers.
@@BourbonRealTalk The problem is, with the sneaker industry the resellers buy ALL OR MOST of the stock from the retailers and THEN mark the prices up to something astronomical. Which means the average connneseiur is S.O.L.
My go to store puts it's allocated bottles right there on the shelf at MSRP give or take a buck or two. I mean the buyer watches you through a one way mirror, but hey!
Sounds like a great store. I wish they all were that way.
Capitalism leads to greed. Human nature is a hell of a beast. Monopolies are greed. When you are the only, then you can be as greedy as you want. Its like when people say socialism leads to dictatorship. Both are terrible when they've gone far enough.
Great video. I also ordered your whiskey aroma kit..with standard shipping and was surprised at how fast it arrived. The kit is awesome
Hope you enjoy it! Thank you for the support!
Randy thankyou for the video. But yamazki might not be everybody. How did you like it!!
I love yamazaki 12 when they teased back in 2015-2016. I acquired the 12 bottles
Yam is too light for me across the board. I am not saying it is bad, but that lighter more elegant style of whiskey is not my style.
I watched your whiskey collection..it's very impressive. Keep inspire us
Great analysis. These are things I've never really thought about.
It is complicated. This piece was not one I could just google and get all the information. It actually took me years to talking with people in the industry to put together all the pieces.
@@BourbonRealTalk It shows bro.
Enjoyed then information! All the info compacted into a quick video. Another thing that may affect some markets. Taxes. Washington State is 20+% + a liter tax. One adjacent state, no tax. Both state run still. 3 wide range of prices... costs. I do like the analysis of the market. Thanks.
Thanks
Do you go to Oregon to get your whiskey? I'm in Washington too but I'm thinking of starting to make road trips for higher end bottles.
@@dada191 not often enough! I have a neighbor who goes to Idaho a lot, and they'll mule back if it's on my list. I got a lot in Oregon too. Thing is, hard to find and by some definition, expensive, hard to find there too, so no guarantee. Really, it's loading up on the higher priced but common bottles that make it worth the trip. Rare if found, a bonus.
Large retailers use these brands as loss leaders. And it would not net them that much in the grand scheme of things to raise prices to market appropriate prices because they care about floor space and turnaround times. They use these products the same way that the manufacturers do just to us.
No store has enough allocated bottles to make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.
@@BourbonRealTalk absolutely! Btw I love the content super informative I use your channel as a reference for many of my bottle purchases. Thank you
Plus, they can keep the craze going by keeping the price low, demand high, and then put their name all over other products, like soap sold at Target.
Yes. Your point is well taken. They are not making their money on the allocated stuff. They make their money on other items.
Really enjoyed this video! Thanks brother 🤠🥃
My pleasure!!
Well done. It was nice to listen to, despite the unpleasant problem. I think you hit the point who buys this expensive whiskey. Greetings from Poland.
Yay! An international viewer!
Great video! The stores that don't do this are few and far between. Luckily, I found one when vacationing in FL, bottle of weller special reserve for 21.99! In MI that bottle ranges from 50-100
I am lucky to live in TX. We get so much Weller that I get multiple bottles of Antique and 12 per year, and special reserve is usually on the shelves.
Last night I paid $19.99 for Buffalo Trace in FL. You can imagine where I’m shopping from now on. They easily could have doubled that. They didn’t. They did limit 1 bottle per customer. I can live with that.
I can get BT on the shelf at any number of stores here. The store in FL were I got the weller said they only did 1 bottle as well, either BT or Weller. I was shocked that BT was only 1 bottle.
BT is 26.99 in MI, we have state minimum here and that is what BT state min is and generally what it is sold for.
@@jlb9074 I love a nice find!
One more item: a potential reason the gov't created the three tier system...taxes.
With three tiers, the gov't gets even more taxes = Company A's revenues are taxed. Company B the middlemen/suppliers' revenues are also taxed. And then Company C bars/retailers' revenues are ALSO taxed. Just a thought.
Solid point, but the govt could lower their regulatory burden and just change the tax rates while at the same time releasing the full capitalistic abilities of those in the liquor industry which would increase revenue and taxes without even changing the tax rates. IMO.
@@BourbonRealTalk Agreed. If our gov't leaders were educated and long-term minded...we'd be in a whole new world; but we can still hope and dreams...and vote accordingly.
Thanks Randal! Great content
Thanks! Crazy all the comments on FB! Apparently this topic touches a nerve.
It seemed to me that many of the people commenting on the FB group had not watched the full video and just reacted to the title. What you talked about in this video made a lot of sense to me.
Thanks for the video. How is the best way to get weller on the secondary market? I only hv one store that gets it around me and they always raffle it off. I’d rather just pay the secondary price instead of keep getting these raffle tickets. Any help will be much appreciated
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great vid! but regarding your comment about the weller full proof, it isn't the same as cask strength or barrel proof, its returned to the proof it entered the barrel as opposed to barrel strength being how it exited the barrel.
Sorry about that. I have whole videos on the difference between cask strength, barrel proof, barrel strength, and full proof, but if you record enough you will have a miscommunication. Cheers!